Canada Introduces $10,000 Speeding Ticket

[Temporal Renegade]

Wasn't sure where else to put this.
Mods: if this needs to be moved, please do so.

No, the title isn't a joke:
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1918.asp

[Miss Anthrope]

Miss Modthrope: This is definitely the right section.

Miss Anthrope: Overkill, anyone? 10K?!?!?!

[Carnivore]

Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident. I believe that that If you are driving at 80 km/h in a 30 km/h zone or even 160 km/h in a 110km/h zone you are a danger to everyone else on or near the road. A severe punishment for the worst degree of offender does not seem inappropriate.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Living here (Ontario) and living with the problem I have some understanding and background as to why this legislation was introduced. There have been a number of major accidents recently in which road racers have cut off trucks and caused death, injuries and highway closures measured in hours. I would guess that a majority of voters and drivers agree with the legislation.

As far as speeding on empty roads -- you cannot guaranty that they are really empty. In one recent crash that killed a taxi driver the idiots involve tried to pass him on the left as he was turning left. In a number of other cases drivers and passengers have been killed in single car accidents when they hit stationary objects such as trees.

I would like to think this new law will solve the problem but the only thing that will actually stop it is speed govenors on the engines. I suppose there is not much hope for this given the way cars are advertised in North America.

[LashL]

Well, I am looking at the Act in question and I do not see where it says anything that would support what the linked story says about "being caught driving 50km/h (31 MPH) over the speed limit will automatically trigger "street racing" penalties -- even if the accused motorist is driving alone on an otherwise empty road."

With respect to racing (the Act also deals with other matters such as drunk driving and organized crime as it relates to street racing), it amends section 172 of the HTA, inter alia, as follows:

Racing, stunts, etc., prohibited

172. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway in a race or contest, while performing a stunt or on a bet or wager.

Offence

(2) Every person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $2,000 and not more than $10,000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months, or to both, and in addition his or her driver’s licence may be suspended,

(a) on a first conviction under this section, for not more than two years; or

(b) on a subsequent conviction under this section, for not more than 10 years.

It amends several other sections of the HTA as well, but I do not see anything that refers to 50k over the limit being deemed "racing" even if one is not, in fact, racing.

It also makes it an offence to modify a vehicle (for highway use) in a manner that makes it capable of using nitrous oxide in the fuel mixture, or to drive a vehicle on a highway using nitrous oxide in the fuel, etc. That particular offence is subject to a fine of not less than $500 and not more than $2000, and/or up to 6 months in jail.

There are already laws in place governing the fines for various rates of speed above the limit under the Highway Traffic Act, which work well for their intended purposes. This Act is intended to deal specifically with intentional racing, etc., not with mere speeding. So, I seriously doubt that $10,000 fines will be imposed for driving 50k over the speed limit if one is not, in fact, racing at the time. The intent and purpose of a law is important to its interpretation by courts.

I will read it in more detail, but on a cursory read of it, I do not see anything in it that suggests that one can be fined for "racing" if one is not, in fact, racing.

From the "explanatory note" at the Legislative Assembly of Ontario site, it says this about the amendments to the HTA wrt street racing:

Section 172 prohibits street racing. The current penalty for street racing is a $200 minimum and $1,000 maximum fine or six months imprisonment, or both a fine and imprisonment, and a maximum driver’s licence suspension of two years. The fine is increased to a $2,000 minimum and $10,000 maximum. The driver’s licence suspension is increased to a maximum of two years for a first offence and a maximum of 10 years for a subsequent offence. In addition, there will be a seven-day administrative driver’s licence suspension and vehicle impoundment. The driver’s licence suspensions will apply not only to people with Ontario driver’s licences, but to drivers licensed by another jurisdiction as well.

New section 172.1 is enacted. It prohibits driving a motor vehicle equipped with a nitrous oxide fuel system except where the nitrous oxide connection is not operational.

Subsection 41 (1) is amended so that a person convicted under the recently passed street racing offences in the Criminal Code (Canada) will be subject to the same automatic driver’s licence suspensions on conviction as are persons convicted of impaired driving under the Criminal Code (Canada). A consequential amendment is made to section 46.

Section 214.1 is amended to provide that a person who is convicted of street racing in a community safety zone is subject to the same increased licence suspensions as would be imposed under section 172. Currently, the maximum licence suspension under section 214.1 is two years.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Dude, that is the most awesome law ever.

[Zep]

Same deal here... Road safety campaign from a few years ago: Ml8JHPZ8-c8

[Fitter]

Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident. I believe that that If you are driving at 80 km/h in a 30 km/h zone or even 160 km/h in a 110km/h zone you are a danger to everyone else on or near the road. A severe punishment for the worst degree of offender does not seem inappropriate.

If you are driving on an undivided highway in northern Ontario hitting 140-150 is not unheard of to pass a transport truck. When you find a safe place to pass you still want to limit the time you are in opposing traffic's lane.

[Just thinking]

I have no objection to severe penalties for excessive and/or dangerous traffic violations --- what I have are problems with ridiculously low posted speed limits on roadways that are clearly designed and able to accommodate safe traffic at reasonable speeds.

[Madalch]

Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident.

Yes you can, in places (like rural Alberta) where schools are located near highways.

Highway limit- 100 km/h.
School zone- 30 km/h.

If you don't notice the sign in time, you're 70 clicks over the limit.

[ImaginalDisc]

Good. I hope they include jail time.

If I run willy-nilly through a crowded room swinging a sledge hammer wildly, I'd get arrested. But, if I drive my car recklessly down the highway, with complete disregard for the lives of others, moving a several thousand pound piece of metal around, I'd get a slap on the wrist. Cars are dangerous.

Yes, I am one of those people who likens not using a turn signal to criminal negligence.

[Darat]

...snip...

If you don't notice the sign in time, you're 70 clicks over the limit.

If your signage is anything like it is over here I can't see how people cannot notice the signs, there is never just one or even just one type of sign. We have markings on the road itself such as "Slow", "30 Mph", "School", signs on the side of the road saying the same and also the actual speed limits signs. I would suspect that if someone didn't notice those then they shouldn't be driving in the first place!

[a_unique_person]

Living here (Ontario) and living with the problem I have some understanding and background as to why this legislation was introduced. There have been a number of major accidents recently in which road racers have cut off trucks and caused death, injuries and highway closures measured in hours. I would guess that a majority of voters and drivers agree with the legislation.

As far as speeding on empty roads -- you cannot guaranty that they are really empty. In one recent crash that killed a taxi driver the idiots involve tried to pass him on the left as he was turning left. In a number of other cases drivers and passengers have been killed in single car accidents when they hit stationary objects such as trees.

I would like to think this new law will solve the problem but the only thing that will actually stop it is speed govenors on the engines. I suppose there is not much hope for this given the way cars are advertised in North America.

Risk taking by idiots is on the rise here, too. An old couple was recently wiped out by a head on when they did a right hand turn (this is Austlralia), across a highway, into the path of some street racing idiots. They would have assumed that the lights were so far away, they had plenty of time. Unfortunately, the cars were coming towards them at way above the legal limit. They braked so hard, they blew their tyres. The old couple never had a chance.

[Whoracle]

How about just impounding the car for a month or something? It's kind of hard to drive like a maniac without any wheels.

[richardm]

10,000 Canadian Dollars is about ten times the maximum fine you'd expect to get for speeding in the UK. Rather a lot, in other words.

If your signage is anything like it is over here I can't see how people cannot notice the signs, there is never just one or even just one type of sign. We have markings on the road itself such as "Slow", "30 Mph", "School", signs on the side of the road saying the same and also the actual speed limits signs. I would suspect that if someone didn't notice those then they shouldn't be driving in the first place!

They're also introducing countdown signs in more and more places - a good idea for situations like that where you do have one road running for hundreds of miles with little villages knotted onto the road here and there. At least, I think they're a good idea - you can't find yourself suddenly and unexpectedly way over the speed limit. According to the Department for Transport, however, they have next to no effect on vehicle speeds and only serve to confuse drivers with roadside clutter. Shows what I know!

[Darat]

I think they should allow villages like that to operate "speed spikes" so if you go screaming through the "We welcome careful drivers" signs ignoring the speed limits as you pass out of the village the spikes are raised - they rip your tyres to shreds and you come to a stop before an illuminated sign that says "But not careless drivers - have a nice day!"

[Zep]

How about just impounding the car for a month or something? It's kind of hard to drive like a maniac without any wheels.Or turning it into a 1 metre steel cube...

[Damien Evans]

Or turning it into a 1 metre steel cube...

They do that in California, correct?

[Zep]

They do that in California, correct?So we are led to believe. Can any Arnie-staters give us the good oil?

[timhau]

A speeding ticket of 10,000 Canadian dollars?

Ha (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1759791.stm) ha. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3477285.stm)

[Horatius]

Racing, stunts, etc., prohibited

172. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway in a race or contest, while performing a stunt or on a bet or wager.





So, if I bet you I can drive from Toronto to Hamilton without violating any driving rules, I'd be liable under this act?

Not mention, almost certain to lose the bet....;)

[Normal Dude]

So we are led to believe. Can any Arnie-staters give us the good oil?

I have never heard of it, but California is a big state and its possible some county somewhere does it. although it is rumoured that Arnold will snap your neck with two fingers if you speed on the Capital street in Sacramento. :eek:


I like that fine. I have a major pet peeve about how easily people can get away with misusing large fast moving metal and glass machines of death.. err I mean cars.

[casebro]

A speeding ticket of 10,000 Canadian dollars?

Ha (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1759791.stm) ha. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3477285.stm)

I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle.

[ponderingturtle]

Is this a problem? You certainly cant be rocketing along at 50 km/h over the speed limit by accident. I believe that that If you are driving at 80 km/h in a 30 km/h zone or even 160 km/h in a 110km/h zone you are a danger to everyone else on or near the road. A severe punishment for the worst degree of offender does not seem inappropriate.

I can. 50 km/h is 30 mph. I know plenty of places that you could be that the speed-limit suddenly drops with no general change in the nature of the road and only 1 sign. So if you are driving a little over the speed limit and miss a sign, BAM $10,000 fine.

Look at the great incentive to put poorly visible speed limit signs as a revenue generating feature.

[timhau]

I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle.

Yeah, I don't think it's a bad system. Note that the enormous fines mentioned in those news items all got reduced on appeal -- they are always calculated on the basis of the income from the previous fiscal year, and if you can show that your income during the current year is significantly smaller, it will be recalculated (if your income will be significantly higher, lucky you).

For minor traffic violations, you will get a set fine which ranges from €50 to €150 (or something like that), depending on the offense. In the case of speeding, they start hitting you with income-based fines when you go more than 20km/h over the limit.

[Damien Evans]

I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle.

sounds like a good idea to me

[Fitter]

If your signage is anything like it is over here I can't see how people cannot notice the signs, there is never just one or even just one type of sign. We have markings on the road itself such as "Slow", "30 Mph", "School", signs on the side of the road saying the same and also the actual speed limits signs. I would suspect that if someone didn't notice those then they shouldn't be driving in the first place!

The signage in Alberta is quite different. You will find only lane markers painted on our roads as anything else painted on them would often be covered by snow in winter. There is a town near me (300 km is close around here) where one approaches a school zone at 100 km/h and the warning sign for 30 km/h and the school zone sign are on the same post. As Madalch says it is quite easy to be doing 70 km/h over the speed limit if you don't know the school is there and you miss the first sign.

[Madalch]

I think that is a fair system. Hey, a $100 fine is serious money to me, but to some guy who makes a million per year, it is less than a nuisance. He might tip the valet car parker that some nights. So I would vote for a sliding scale. Based on either income or the value of the vehicle.

I remember hearing a particularly annoying radio personality (Danny Finkelman, for those of you who listen to CBC) complain about how unfair this would be- he couldn't afford -anything-, not even a hamburger, if the cost was pegged to his income (for Finkelman, this kind of statement passes for logic).

He utterly missed the point that you're not buying anything when you pay a speeding ticket, you're being punished for breaking the law. People should be punished equally, and a $500 fine is a much more severe punishment for someone making minimum wage than it is for Bill Gates. 0.05% of your income is an equal punishment all round.

[roger]

Okay, enact this new rule.

Does this mean that if I am unemployeed, I can speed with impunity? :D

[drkitten]

Yes you can, in places (like rural Alberta) where schools are located near highways.

Highway limit- 100 km/h.
School zone- 30 km/h.

If you don't notice the sign in time, you're 70 clicks over the limit.

Hmmm. So there are idiots out there driving three or more times the legal limit near schools?

I think I just changed my mind and now support the death penalty. Using all the creative torture methods known to the Stalinists. $10,000 isn't nearly harsh enough.

[drkitten]

The signage in Alberta is quite different. You will find only lane markers painted on our roads as anything else painted on them would often be covered by snow in winter. [...] As Madalch says it is quite easy to be doing 70 km/h over the speed limit if you don't know the school is there and you miss the first sign.

... in the snow. Even better.

$10,000 isn't enough.

[drkitten]

So we are led to believe. Can any Arnie-staters give us the good oil?

Check out here: (http://www.evostreetracers.com/enforcement_news28.html)



Date: June 21, 2007

RIALTO, California -- Six cars were crushed at a Southern California recycling plant Wednesday morning. The cars were impounded during illegal street races in San Bernardino County.

[ponderingturtle]

Hmmm. So there are idiots out there driving three or more times the legal limit near schools?

I think I just changed my mind and now support the death penalty. Using all the creative torture methods known to the Stalinists. $10,000 isn't nearly harsh enough.

Good, so you think how much should the penalty be for missing a street sign? $20,000 $50,000 $100,000?

[Darth Rotor]

Good, so you think how much should the penalty be for missing a street sign? $20,000 $50,000 $100,000?
*flash back to high school*

I never miss a street sigh. I go slow enough that the Miller Pony bottle I throw at it always hits it.

DR

[drkitten]

Good, so you think how much should the penalty be for missing a street sign? $20,000 $50,000 $100,000?

If by missing a street sign you expose multiple people (children, in particular) to significant risk of death due to your own willful behavior?.... Hmm. I suggest "attempted homicide." That's, what, twenty-five years? I believe that Canada also recognizes "negligent endangerment of a child" as a criminal offence, although I can't find the statute that defines the penalties. One count per child enrolled, of course.

[ponderingturtle]

If by missing a street sign you expose multiple people (children, in particular) to significant risk of death due to your own willful behavior?.... Hmm. I suggest "attempted homicide." That's, what, twenty-five years? I believe that Canada also recognizes "negligent endangerment of a child" as a criminal offence, although I can't find the statute that defines the penalties. One count per child enrolled, of course.

So you do think that missing one speed limit sign should now result in jail time?

I guess you don't drive.

[Madalch]

Hmmm. So there are idiots out there driving three or more times the legal limit near schools?

I think I just changed my mind and now support the death penalty. Using all the creative torture methods known to the Stalinists. $10,000 isn't nearly harsh enough.

You do realize that there's usually a fence between the school and the highway, right? And that no child walks to or from a school in such a location, right?

[ponderingturtle]

You do realize that there's usually a fence between the school and the highway, right? And that no child walks to or from a school in such a location, right?

No we are punishing people based on What You Don't Know. So as any traffic violation could well cause many people to die, they should all be punished as such.

Changing lanes with out signaling? 15 years, After all you never know if you will cause a bus load of hemophiliac kids to crash and explode.

[Temporal Renegade]

A speeding ticket of 10,000 Canadian dollars?

Ha (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1759791.stm) ha. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3477285.stm)

Damn, I wish I was that rich to be that stupid! :D

[Charlie Monoxide]

Wasn't sure where else to put this.
Mods: if this needs to be moved, please do so.

No, the title isn't a joke:
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1918.aspDoes that include GST?

Charlie (just bought Strange Brew DVD) Monoxide

[Temporal Renegade]

Does that include GST?

Charlie (just bought Strange Brew DVD) Monoxide

Wouldn't surprise me if it didn't. :)

[Fitter]

... in the snow. Even better.

$10,000 isn't enough.
Wow! Talk about twisting words. The snow comment was referring to traffic signage not speed. Around here we know how to drive in wintry conditions as we have 8+ months of them. Case in point Thursday morning I had to scrape my windshield and as it was +1C the possibility of snow was very real.

[Corsair 115]

Wow! Talk about twisting words. The snow comment was referring to traffic signage not speed. Around here we know how to drive in wintry conditions as we have 8+ months of them. Case in point Thursday morning I had to scrape my windshield and as it was +1C the possibility of snow was very real. Depends on the location — not much chance of snow in Toronto yesterday.

[Jeff Corey]

Same deal here... Road safety campaign from a few years ago: Ml8JHPZ8-c8


Whadya want? Jerk driving on the wrong side of the road.

[DingoBingo]

Instead of a fine, what if the punishment was impounding the lawbreaker's vehicle?

[Fitter]

Depends on the location — not much chance of snow in Toronto yesterday.
Which is why Madalch and I were discussing rural Alberta.

[baron]

I don't see a problem as long as it's publicised (although, like any fine, it would be preferable to have a sliding scale based on status). When people speed they should be prepared to take the consequences. If I'm stopped for speeding tomorrow then I've only myself to blame. These people who whine about it make me ill. They should either stick to the speed limit or grow a backbone.

Having said that, I'm not too sure of the effectiveness of this legislation. Most deaths in the UK aren't caused by people going over 100mph (or +30mph anywhere else), they're caused on urban roads at much slower speeds. The idea that going at, say 100mph (+30mph) on an empty motorway is more dangerous than going 40mph (+10mph) past a school could only be entertained by someone totally ignorant of the issue in hand.

[Darat]

I don't see a problem as long as it's publicised (although, like any fine, it would be preferable to have a sliding scale based on status). When people speed they should be prepared to take the consequences. If I'm stopped for speeding tomorrow then I've only myself to blame. These people who whine about it make me ill. They should either stick to the speed limit or grow a backbone.

Having said that, I'm not too sure of the effectiveness of this legislation. Most deaths in the UK aren't caused by people going over 100mph (or +30mph anywhere else), they're caused on urban roads at much slower speeds. The idea that going at, say 100mph (+30mph) on an empty motorway is more dangerous than going 40mph (+10mph) past a school could only be entertained by someone totally ignorant of the issue in hand.

Isn't one of the reasons urban accidents cause more deaths is because of the type of accident they tend to be i.e. me traveling at a legal 30 mph going round a corner - pillock on the other side overtaking going into the corner at 50mph results in a head on collision at our combined speed?

[richardm]

... or is it that you're more likely to hit a pedestrian who is likely to come off rather worse than your car, vs. a higher speed incident on a motorway where you're both in cars?

[Darat]

Pah pedestrians - who cares about them? Second class citizens!

[Ian Osborne]

And remember, the $10,000 fine is a maximum sentence, designed to fit the worst examples of the crime. Missing a sign in an area where the speed limit suddenly drops is unlikely to trigger a sentence of that severity.

[baron]

Isn't one of the reasons urban accidents cause more deaths is because of the type of accident they tend to be i.e. me traveling at a legal 30 mph going round a corner - pillock on the other side overtaking going into the corner at 50mph results in a head on collision at our combined speed?

Yep, quite possibly.

[Mangafranga]

Here are some stats on fatal road crashes in Australia. I have changed the format of the table, because I am not sure how to replicate it on here. I have also omitted 2000-2002 stats. The original can be found here (http://www.atsb.gov.au/), and direct link to pdf here (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2007/mrf072007.aspx).

From Road Deaths Australia; Monthly Bulletin, July 2007
CHARACTERISTICS OF FATAL CRASHES

Proportion (per cent) of fatal crashes by speed limit, crash type, time of day, and time of week. Two years ended July 2007 and two years ended July 2002

Speed limit (km/h)

Aug 2005 - Jul 2007

Up to 60, 33.1%
65-95, 21.4%
100+, 45.5%

Crash Type

Aug 2005 - Jul 2007

Pedestrian crash 14.9%
Other single veh. Crash 46.2%
Other multiple veh. crash 38.9%

[Langis]

Though I wonder how effective this will be in deterring racing and excessive speeding, I do believe that it's a step in the right direction.

50 clicks over the limit is just far too much. There's never an excuse for that unless it's some emergency.

[LashL]

Though I wonder how effective this will be in deterring racing and excessive speeding, I do believe that it's a step in the right direction.

50 clicks over the limit is just far too much. There's never an excuse for that unless it's some emergency.

But it is not aimed at curbing "excessive speeding" - there are already laws in place for that. This is aimed at curbing "racing" which, by definition, requires something more than just "excessive speed".

As I said earlier in this thread, the quotes in the OP do not jibe with the actual legislation.

[Temporal Renegade]

A guy at my work thinks nothing of driving over a hundred in a 45 MPH zone; his eyes are constantly lookout for any police anywhere. And, he doesn't use a radar detector.

When I told him about this, he said that he thought it was stupid. Of course he would...

[CptColumbo]

Pah pedestrians - who cares about them? Second class citizens!If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk.

[aries]

It seems a little harsh to me that all it takes to impound a person's car is the word of one policeman or policewoman. This really doesn't feel safe to me. In my mind, a judge should be ordering the impounding of the car, not a policeman. What if the policeman were mad at someone??

In general, I'm all for stricter and harder sentencing on those idiots that drive recklessly and dangerously. In Denmark, we have some cases of this, too. ON TV last night, there was a documentary about it, and one of the young males said this: 'I raced on the highway with 145km/h (about 90Mp/h), there weren't any cars, the road was straight and there weren't any animals. So I had the right to drive 145km/h'. I just shook my head and thought to myself, 'you never know completely if the road doesn't have any cars etc. on it as pr. the story from Australia being told above'.

He, of course, lost his driver's license, as well as has to paid a fine equal to a month's pay before taxes. (I think). You get the same fine if&when you drive or sail while under the influence (DUI) if beer, wine or whiskey. This is a fair fine, I think. This hits the rich man more than the poor man.

[baron]

It seems a little harsh to me that all it takes to impound a person's car is the word of one policeman or policewoman. This really doesn't feel safe to me. In my mind, a judge should be ordering the impounding of the car, not a policeman. What if the policeman were mad at someone??

Does it mean that, or does it mean that if the person were doing 30+MPH then the officer could state whether they believed they were racing or not? Surely there has to be irrefutable evidence of speeding in the form of video or photo or radar gun? There certainly has to be in the UK.

[CptColumbo]

I am unfamiliar with how it works in Canada, but in the US you can always plea not guilty to a speeding ticket and have your day in court. So if a person feels they are being singled out by the police they can tell it to the judge.

[Hamradioguy]

The 80 something aunt of one of my NB friends was pulled over for doing a bit over a hundred MPH in her ancient Buick Roadmaster. She quite indignantly told the Mountie who stopped her that she most certainly was NOT speeding. The sign said speed limit 100 and that's about what she was doing. The Mountie had to explain that Canadian speeds were posted as metric, and that her Buick speedometer showed miles- not km- per hour.

I understand that afterward the Buick was stored in her garage and family members made sure that henceforth she rode with them or took public transportation.