Multi-level Marketing - the way of credulous. [Archive] - Page 2

icerat

27th April 2008, 03:10 PM

I still get information up to this day due to family involvement. I still regularly talk to lots of people in the business. My dad has had an active distributorship since 1979.

Given the fact that I've NEVER seen a group without an emphasis on tools I think you should be the one providing information on said group.

Oh good grief. And I've never seen a University that doesn't promote text books and seminars - they're in on the scam too! scammers! scammers!

Get a clue.

I'm am definitely not claiming that nobody can ever make money. I'm just claiming that the amount of money per work unit is crappy UNLESS you are a tools scammer in which case it's the best thing ever.

Really? Amount of money per work unit is crappy? So Amway is faking those million dollar checks huh? And they're faking the average income statistics for Diamonds and above. These a pretty serious charges.

<b>Do you have any evidence to back it up?</b>

Unfortunately by that time you are also an unethical scamming criminal.

How much money do you make? How much work did you put in? Why will you not tell us these things?

Right, so now you're making claims where just one counter example would prove you wrong. But since that's easily done with pointing out say Yager's *Amway* (not tool) cheques, then I don't need to.

There is both personal experience are other personal reasons that have nothing to do with the business why I'm not going into details in a public forum. If you'd actually been a sensible, rational person in this discussion, and not instead been abusive and offensive, then I may have explained it to you privately, as I have with others on this thread. But since you're being little more than dogmatic, rude, and obnoxious, forget it.

I'm going to assert that this information will make you look like an idiot. So prove us wrong. You've already said that you have a passive income stream so PROVE IT, or shut up about how great this craphole of a business is.

Do you bother even reading what I say before you go on with your hysterical rants? Even others have pointed out to you that I've addressed this - I've been down this road before. I know where it leads ... I answer your questions. I give honest answers, providing private personal data on a public forum. You ask for more details. I go to the trouble of getting and giving more details. You say yeah, well I'm probably lying but even if I wasn't, I might be making money, but only because my group must be losing money. I go to the trouble of getting and providing the best data I can on my groups income and expenses. You accuse me of lying and want proof. I ask what would be needed for proof. You want certified information from a third party. I offer to provide all of this if you'll pay to obtain it. You ignore this and keep claiming I'm a scammer, keep claiming I'm a liar, keep claiming that nobody will provide data.

And you'll keep claiming only you and a few others know "The Truth" and that the thousands of business leaders and governments and sports leaders and academics and courts that have investigated and backed the Amway business have all been hoodwinked.

I've been there before, more than once. You've had your experience, your "relevation". No manner of logic or facts is going to change your mind. They'll always be one more thing you'll need to be convinced, one more thing you need to admit that perhaps you're wrong or outdated or overgeneralizing. There'll always be one more thing. You know The Truth.

There's just no arguing with Capitalised Words.

jimbob

27th April 2008, 03:44 PM

icerat

27th April 2008, 04:07 PM

In legitimate MLMs no income is earned from recruiting, it's all from product sales. What you're describing there is an illegal pyramid. Unfortunately of course, illegal pyramids like to tell people they're legitimate MLMs, hence the all too common confusion.

As regard "setting up competitors", that's a quite bizarre idea that seems to be doing the rounds the last year or so. If you own a clothing store, and start as the sole employee, is it considered "setting up competitors" by having sales staff, who might sell to a customer that you might otherwise sold to yourself? Strictly speaking it is, since you'd likely get a lesser profit for a unit sold by the sales staff than if you'd done it yourself, but I've never heard anyone criticise a store for having sales staff since they're "competition".

JonnyFive

28th April 2008, 07:02 AM

Oh good grief. And I've never seen a University that doesn't promote text books and seminars - they're in on the scam too! scammers! scammers!

Get a clue.

Wait... what? You're comparing Amway motivational materials to university-level textbooks?

Seriously? Numerical Methods using MATLAB would like to have a little chat with you.

And what university requires/strongly encourages its students to attend pay-in seminars?

icerat

28th April 2008, 08:07 AM

JF - most universities in the world are not free (and fewer as years go by alas). As for "university-level textbooks" I made no such comparison. As it happens, I have a double major in psychology and I've learned more about human behaviour from books recommended to me by Amway associates than I did in 4 years at University. My fiancee has a Masters in Health Science and I a GradDip in Health Science and we also both agree we've learned more about health and nutrition through our Amway associations than we ever did at University.

You're narrowing of Amway-related training to being little more than "motivational materials" reveals how narrow your experience and/or knowledge is.

JonnyFive

28th April 2008, 11:11 AM

JF - most universities in the world are not free (and fewer as years go by alas).

No one said they were. They provide a service in exchange for money. You see a connection between Amway's seminars and university classes? Oh? What did you learn in your Amway seminars that made you a more effective business owner or salesman?

As for "university-level textbooks" I made no such comparison.

So, when you made the analogy between a university offering textbooks and Amway offering training materials...

Maybe you need to be clearer about what you mean when you write.

As it happens, I have a double major in psychology and I've learned more about human behaviour from books recommended to me by Amway associates than I did in 4 years at University. My fiancee has a Masters in Health Science and I a GradDip in Health Science and we also both agree we've learned more about health and nutrition through our Amway associations than we ever did at University.

This isn't even the "tools" Newton was talking about - you're now talking about stuff suggested by other associates.

So you're arguing against another straw man. I never said that your associates couldn't recommend good reading - I said I found it odd you'd draw a parallel between university textbooks and material like the Amway motivational tapes that were referred to as the Amway "tools."

You're narrowing of Amway-related training to being little more than "motivational materials" reveals how narrow your experience and/or knowledge is.

Why don't you enlighten us? Newton was clearly referring to the "tools" that consisted of such things as the weekly tapes, motivational seminars, etc.

So... what kind of training is provided by these materials? How much of them are training, and how much are motivational? Again, there are a lot of accounts of former distributors who found the tools to be useless as far as sales training goes. Those people are all liars?

NewtonTrino

28th April 2008, 12:18 PM

Well to be clear the books have also been considered tools as well. There generally isn't as much money in them because they aren't (as much) self produced. Of course Dexter has written a bunch and there are a bunch of apologists that write books for that market as well (including Kiyosaki and Trump who put in MLM specific chapters so they can sell to that market). The tapes and functions are vastly more profitable though because they are much easier to consume so the volume is higher.

Anyway, Amway has a lot in common with religious cults so the tools are much more akin to religious tracts than to actual business tools. They are very effective at turning people into Ambots though. Don't think that the people creating these are stupid, they know exactly how to manipulate their audience just as a good preacher does.

It's also interesting to see how many of the tools teach you how to sell product vs how much are pure motivation and/or technique for recruiting more people to the business. (you can guess what gets emphasized).

icerat

28th April 2008, 01:28 PM

So, NewtonTrino. I know you'll likely ignore these questions, because you ignore them every other time. But just in case, how about we get an idea of exactly how much of an expert you are to make these judgements.

(1) In the last 10 years, how many CDs have you listened to from Network 21, the largest single BSM organisation in the Amway World?

(2) In the last 10 years, how many N21 seminars have you attended?

(3) Can you name 5 books that have been recommended by N21 in the last 10 years? Have you read any of them?

(4) In the last 10 years, how many CDs have you listened to from the TOP4 association, whose individual BSM organisations work together and collectively possibily represent more of Amway than N21?

(5) In the last 10 years, how many Top4 seminars have you attended?

(6) Can you name 5 books that have been recommended by Top4 in the last 10 years? Have you read any of them?

I am fairly confident that collectively those 2 organisations represent at least half of all Amway, hence providing a representative perspective.

They're simple questions, please answer them.

icerat

28th April 2008, 01:45 PM

No one said they were. They provide a service in exchange for money. You see a connection between Amway's seminars and university classes? Oh? What did you learn in your Amway seminars that made you a more effective business owner or salesman?

To be clear we're not talking about Amway's seminars, which are generally free or close to it, we're talking about seminars offered by third party educational companies.

What have I learned? A multitude of things - People skills, Leadership skills, Public Speaking skills, Goal Setting skills, Sales skills, Communication skills, Self-discipline/self-organizational skills, product knowledge, including an awful lot about macro and micro nutrition. I'm sure I could come up with many more. Mind you, I'm sometimes (often) better at learning them than applying them :-)

So, when you made the analogy between a university offering textbooks and Amway offering training materials...

Well, again we weren't talking about Amway's training materials. The point was that paying for educational materials isn't exactly unusual.

So you're arguing against another straw man. I never said that your associates couldn't recommend good reading - I said I found it odd you'd draw a parallel between university textbooks and material like the Amway motivational tapes that were referred to as the Amway "tools."

"motivational tapes" are one small part of what's available. Clearly you have very little experience in what it is we are talking about.

So... what kind of training is provided by these materials? How much of them are training, and how much are motivational? Again, there are a lot of accounts of former distributors who found the tools to be useless as far as sales training goes. Those people are all liars?

Man it's unbelievable the broad brushes you folk sweep. There are dozens and dozens, perhaps into the hundreds, of different companies that offer training to Amway business owners. There are literally thousands of different organisations within Amway that utilise them in different ways. What on earth makes you think one persons experience with one organisation and one training company is the same as someone elses with completely different organizations?

Unlike some here I don't pretend to know what other people have experienced and I haven't made any claims about it. NewtonTrino clearly is making claims about everyone from what is clearly limited experience, and you seem to be doing the same.

I'd be curious about your "lots of accounts". Compared to what? How many have you read, from how many different organisations? Is it only from the internet, or elsewhere? I've read pretty much everything on the internet I can find, and virtually all the accounts of the type you mention are from the same organisation and it's affiliates. What's more, given the tens of millions of people that have had some experience with Amway, these "lots of accounts" would seems to be remarkably few in number, wouldn't you agree?

NewtonTrino

28th April 2008, 02:09 PM

I already said I'm not answering any more questions until you tell us more about your experience.

You haven't succeeded in the business so how you are reliable in any way to talk about how great this is? What proof do you have that your upline (the ones who actually make money) aren't making the vast majority from tools?

Where do you think the Dornan's got the idea for N21? Somewhere other than duplicating Britt and Yager? Do you think they make more from Amway income or from N21 tools and events?

The simple fact is that the money is made from the tools. Some people manage to struggle and build organizations large enough to be profitable although in recent years almost all growth has been oversees. This business is a brainwashing cult where very very few people ever make money that compares to the amount of work they have to do (and they give up many friends and family in the process). Of those that do make money they are making it very very unethically if not criminally.

Given the fact that you've already admitted that some of the kingpins are evil people and do bad things isn't the burden of proof on you to show that N21 is different from the above paragraph?

Given the fact that you said you've been successful can you tell us how much money you are making and how much work you've put in? If not, why not? Why isn't your experience typical?

Bottom line, you aren't arguing from a position that gives you any credibility. Why so secretive about income numbers? Why are the kingpins so secretive about where their money comes from?

Do you really honestly think all of the tool's money is accounted for in your past posts about the breakdown of tool discounts? I've shown that there is plenty of money missing that could be lining the pockets of the kingpins. Got ANY counter evidence?

BTW this whole "company to help people be successful" stuff is just the scam becoming more competitive in the marketplace of ideas. It's a response to the criticism the internet has brought to these lying scammers.

I encourage EVERYONE to go look around and find out about the experience of someone that gets in and "does the work". Then go and compare their experience to what ex-scientologists write about....

NewtonTrino

28th April 2008, 02:33 PM

One more question. For someone plugged into N21 what would the typically monthly expenditure be for cd's, dvd's, books, website access, functions and anything else N21 sells?

icerat

28th April 2008, 03:25 PM

I'm not arguing from a position of credibility? It's fairly clear your experience outside of one relatively small part of the Amway world is nil. I'm not making claims about your experience, I can't, I have little direct experience with that organistion. Yet here you are making blanket claims about thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of people (if we count platinums and up), claiming I'm lying even about my own experience, and you say I am not arguing from a position of credibility?

Good one. Do you do comedy as a living?

NewtonTrino

29th April 2008, 11:29 AM

For someone plugged in to N21 what is the month expenditure on tapes, books, functions and anything else required to be considered to be "working" the business?

Simple question and the answer is just a number. What are you hiding?

icerat

29th April 2008, 02:27 PM

I've answered plenty of your questions, you refuse to answer mine. I think we're done with this conversation unless you change your attitude.

NewtonTrino

29th April 2008, 03:40 PM

Excellent, please go push your scam somewhere else.

icerat

29th April 2008, 05:03 PM

You continue to be offensive.

NewtonTrino

29th April 2008, 05:23 PM

If the truth is offensive that's your problem.

I find it offensive that you are brainwashed enough that you try to defend these scammers. I find it offensive that you will defend them vehemently and then not tell us about your level of "success". I find it offensive that this bunch of criminals is running around free and isn't in the pen. I find it offensive that you keep questioning my credibility when you've admitted that these scammers exist (just that your upline is "different").

Please go away.

Foolmewunz

29th April 2008, 05:43 PM

Foolmewunz

29th April 2008, 05:54 PM

Diamond in the Rough

I no longer know the guy, so this is yet another in a series of anecdotal tales. Raoul was his name. He was the day manager for a string of laundromats in Manhattan. His downline were a bunch of fictitious cousins. They all bought only laundry products which were then used in the carry-in portion of the businesses (a huge trade in Manhattan - no one has a washer and dryer in their apartment/flat). He made a lot of money at it, on paper. When he was promoted and given points in the stores' business, though, he looked at the figures and could make more by buying his detergents and bleaches through a legit wholesaler, thus making better profits for the laundromat and a better commission. He quit Amway in a flash.

In short, as a product at a price, it was harming the end-user - the laundromat (or Mrs. McGinty in Peoria) because he could, even calculating his own profits, do a better deal elsewhere. That's the end-line in MLM. Someone's getting burned on price at the bottom of the pyramid.

icerat

29th April 2008, 06:14 PM

IceRat,
You managed to gloss over their sales figures (your graph, as you say, but their figures) pretty neatly.

I'm in business, in a major corporation, and we can do our EBIT (net profit three or pre-tax profit if you will) by the 25th of the following month. We do it regularly and consistantly. It's expected by the shareholders and a requirement to stay afloat in most businesses. How are they still dealing with "estimates" for over forty years? Why are they still dealing with "estimates"?

I addressed this earlier. Tell me, if your company sells your product to another person, at that person sells it, do you know how much they sell it for? Probably not. What if there were several million people involved?

Amway does not know what price it's independent reps sell the products for, and can't know - the FTC actually fined them for asking, considering it "pressure" to price fix and sell at the same price.

Hence, when reporting the "sales" of their products, they reported "estimates", they idea being that this is then makes it comparable with traditional retail outlets.

In 1999/2000 they switched to simply reporting their own revenues, which quite obviously they do know and are not estimates. which is a different thing to how much the products are sold for. It does not say "estimate" on the site.

How does a company with no brick and mortar outlets actually dare to report retail sales? I'll accept your explanation that the retail figures have to be estimated, but the wholesale??? What, in Amway jargon, is a wholesale sale?

In this case it's a sale from Amway to an authorised reseller, which technically may actually be a retail sale if they chose to use it themselves. I should change the legend for that, it's not an accurate descriptive. Thanks for pointing it out. It's really a "wholesale price" sale rather than a "wholesale sale".

Is that another middleman's estimated selling to the lower down middlemen? Otherwise WHY would it be estimated?

The wholesale estimates are my figures, not Amways. I wanted to do a graph for being able to compare older data with their data since they switched to reporting actual sales revenues. They're estimated because I don't work for Amway and don't have access to their actual revenue data for the last 50 years.

In short.... if they make a product, they have a sales price to someone. Acme Widgets manufactures widgets and reports the sales of widgets, every widget with a purchase order and which ships prior to the month's close. That's how it works. Widgets R Us sells widgets in their stores and will initially report Retail Sales for the Period Ending.... But then has to do the actual figures for their profits sometime during the following fiscal month.

That's fine for Widgets R Us, if all of their sales were retail sales. But if the majority of their sales were to resellers, and they wanted to know what consumer market share their products had (dollar wise), they'd want to estimate $ sales by the retailers.

Just what figure is Amway reporting?

Today, it reports actual revenues.

In short, these look like motivational hype. B.S. if you will.

Yup, I agree, it was - particularly given a large percentage of product are is not resold but used by the purchaser. It was common in the direct sales industry, and I believe some companies still report sales this way (estimate retail).

Colgate Palmolive reports their revenue as "sales" (which in the old double-entry bookkeeping model means "credit" as opposed to "debit" income from what you sell), but not as "estimated retail sales". Ditto Merck. Ditto General Electric. Ditto Black & Decker. Ditto Lexmark. They make and sell products to people who then report them at the retail level.

Really? I didn't realise that hardware stores, for example, had to report to B&D the price they sold B&D drills for. That's interesting, similar behaviour is what got Amway in strife in the 70s. Is that really common?

In any case, it wouldn't necessarily be accurate. What if some guy called Bob buys 20 drills on special from his local B&D and then sells them down at the local markets for a profit. Only Bob knows the retail price charged. The hardware store actually made a wholesale sale (wholesale sale=sale for the purpose of resale). The point being that with direct selling companies the second scenario is common - there's independent folk doing the retail sale, and they're under no obligation to tell the manufacturer what price they sold the product for, hence the manufacturer can only make estimates.

Amway seems to want it both ways (and I'm not sure what "wholesale" means, anyway... it's not a common report element in the financial world, that's for sure).

It's not a financial world graph, it's something I whipped up in a spare moment because I was curious. I'll change the terminology some time as you are quite correct, it's a poor choice of word for that graph.

icerat

29th April 2008, 06:24 PM

In short, as a product at a price, it was harming the end-user - the laundromat (or Mrs. McGinty in Peoria) because he could, even calculating his own profits, do a better deal elsewhere. That's the end-line in MLM. Someone's getting burned on price at the bottom of the pyramid.

Was Raoul passing on any volume discounts to the laundromat, as the other wholesaler almost certainly was? Raoul is the one setting the price to the customer, not Amway. If he was selling large amounts to one customer at the single unit RRP, then he was ripping them off.

Someone may indeed have been getting burned, but point the finger at the guy with the match.

Incidentally, the Amway washing powder scored 99 out of 100 in independent Consumer Reports testing a year or so a go. Next best was 87. That and it's health and environmental benefits matter to me, so I'm willing to pay a little more for the best. Others, such as laundromats, may not have the same priorities and prefer cheaper brands. That doesn't mean that I'm getting ripped off buying SA8. Amway has never aimed to have the cheapest products. Folk who are buy primarily on price are not our target market.

Foolmewunz

29th April 2008, 10:22 PM

I addressed this earlier. Tell me, if your company sells your product to another person, at that person sells it, do you know how much they sell it for? Probably not. What if there were several million people involved?

Thanks for making my point! Why bother reporting it at all as it does not concern you? Retail or Wholesale sales figures are just a red herring.

Amway does not know what price it's independent reps sell the products for, and can't know - the FTC actually fined them for asking, considering it "pressure" to price fix and sell at the same price.

Yeah, I got that part.

Hence, when reporting the "sales" of their products, they reported "estimates", they idea being that this is then makes it comparable with traditional retail outlets.

Why? They're clearly not a retailer or the FTC would have nothing to say about their price-setting, would it?

This is nonsense. They are not a retailer and this is marketing b.s. to pull in the suckers. This is smoke and mirrors to make it sound like they are "just like a real retailer, only different".

In 1999/2000 they switched to simply reporting their own revenues, which quite obviously they do know and are not estimates. which is a different thing to how much the products are sold for. It does not say "estimate" on the site.

Ah, so they're okay... it's you who's selling snake oil. (Only conclusion I can draw.)

In this case it's a sale from Amway to an authorised reseller, which technically may actually be a retail sale if they chose to use it themselves. I should change the legend for that, it's not an accurate descriptive. Thanks for pointing it out. It's really a "wholesale price" sale rather than a "wholesale sale".

The wholesale estimates are my figures, not Amways. I wanted to do a graph for being able to compare older data with their data since they switched to reporting actual sales revenues. They're estimated because I don't work for Amway and don't have access to their actual revenue data for the last 50 years.

M.E.G.O. ! They don't have actual retail sales figures. Yet, by working with their dubious estimates, you somehow came up with wholesale sales figures?

That's fine for Widgets R Us, if all of their sales were retail sales. But if the majority of their sales were to resellers, and they wanted to know what consumer market share their products had (dollar wise), they'd want to estimate $ sales by the retailers.

I was overemphasizing so the difference between a retailer and a manufacturer would be clearer. I left out what Uncle Nikki Lenin would've referred to as parasitical capitalist middlemen. There are resellers, distributors, etc... in most retail supply chains, now. The point I'm making is that someone is trying to show their success by using retail comparisons. I assumed it was Amway, but now I gather it's you or the approach your uplines take.

Today, it reports actual revenues.

I'll see if I can get their annual satement on line. I'd like to see their balance sheet to take away some of the idiosyncratic filtering you're doing.

Yup, I agree, it was - particularly given a large percentage of product are is not resold but used by the purchaser. It was common in the direct sales industry, and I believe some companies still report sales this way (estimate retail).
Well, okay, then you're not a complete ogre! :D

Really? I didn't realise that hardware stores, for example, had to report to B&D the price they sold B&D drills for. That's interesting, similar behaviour is what got Amway in strife in the 70s. Is that really common?

In any case, it wouldn't necessarily be accurate. What if some guy called Bob buys 20 drills on special from his local B&D and then sells them down at the local markets for a profit. Only Bob knows the retail price charged. The hardware store actually made a wholesale sale (wholesale sale=sale for the purpose of resale). The point being that with direct selling companies the second scenario is common - there's independent folk doing the retail sale, and they're under no obligation to tell the manufacturer what price they sold the product for, hence the manufacturer can only make estimates.

With all due respect, I think you missed the point. I'm saying that they(B&D), like Amway, are a supplier of product... In their case it's more obvious, in Amway's case it's evidently by ruling of the FTC.... I was pointing out that none of those companies reports retail sales. They are not in retail. They manufacture or supply (because many use CM or OEM facilities now) a product and their revenues are reported on their FOB price... not on whatever someone can sell it for. I don't think Apple reports IPOD figures based on the huge markup that people get on E-bay every time there's a new must have model, right?

It's not a financial world graph, it's something I whipped up in a spare moment because I was curious. I'll change the terminology some time as you are quite correct, it's a poor choice of word for that graph.

See? Now there you go being reasonable, again. This thread was so much more fun when you had horns and a tail!:spjimlad::spjimlad:

Foolmewunz

29th April 2008, 10:28 PM

Was Raoul passing on any volume discounts to the laundromat, as the other wholesaler almost certainly was? Raoul is the one setting the price to the customer, not Amway. If he was selling large amounts to one customer at the single unit RRP, then he was ripping them off.

Someone may indeed have been getting burned, but point the finger at the guy with the match.

Incidentally, the Amway washing powder scored 99 out of 100 in independent Consumer Reports testing a year or so a go. Next best was 87. That and it's health and environmental benefits matter to me, so I'm willing to pay a little more for the best. Others, such as laundromats, may not have the same priorities and prefer cheaper brands. That doesn't mean that I'm getting ripped off buying SA8. Amway has never aimed to have the cheapest products. Folk who are buy primarily on price are not our target market.

(Well, I wanted to buy the soap, but the jackass I was talking to kept insisting that he wasn't in the business of selling the stuff, he was in the relationship-building and enterprise-creation business.... To this day my shirts are still dirty because no one will sell me a damned box of Amway detergent unless I have the secret handshake or whatever it is. And I don't do "joining" very well.... I've never shared my toys and I tend to put a whooppee cushion on the chair of the lead guy at corporate pep rallies.)

Raoul could NOT buy, at his level, from Amway or his upline, whichever it was... at as good a price as he could get from the wholesaler/distributor on Essex Street, who sold a professional and superior product quite equal to the Amway. Ergo, trickle-down pain works in the equation.

icerat

30th April 2008, 03:24 AM

This is nonsense. They are not a retailer and this is marketing b.s. to pull in the suckers. This is smoke and mirrors to make it sound like they are "just like a real retailer, only different".

Well, they are indeed a retailer, Amway is even listed as a Global Power in Retailing by Deloitte Touche (http://http://www.amwaywiki.com/index.php?title=Amway_recognised_as_a_Global_Power _in_Retailing). In jurisdictions where it is necessary they also collect sales tax. The commission/rebate method of distributing volume discounts (and indeed rebating sales tax) does not fit directly into traditional descriptions.

Ah, so they're okay... it's you who's selling snake oil. (Only conclusion I can draw.)

Oh good grief, the graph includes both the "hypothetical" retail sales and actual sales. When actual sales were not reported I gave an estimate using the conversion factor provided when for several years they provided both figures. Facts are facts, and that's all they are.

The point I'm making is that someone is trying to show their success by using retail comparisons. I assumed it was Amway, but now I gather it's you or the approach your uplines take.

What on earth are you waffling on about now? If P&G reports the retail sales value of their sales of Tide, to do a market share comparison (in $ terms) you need to know the retail sales value of Amway's SA8. If you can't give the actual figure, then you need to estimate it. This has nothing to do with Amway, or me, or upline, it's just a reality.

In any case it's a pretty silly discussion since Amway hasn't reported figures that way for nearly a decade.

I'll see if I can get their annual satement on line. I'd like to see their balance sheet to take away some of the idiosyncratic filtering you're doing.

Now you're just getting irritating. Taking published data and putting it directly in a graph is "idiosyncratic filtering"?

I'd suggest the idiosyncrartic filtering that's going on here is in the way you're interpreting what you're reading.

With all due respect, I think you missed the point. I'm saying that they(B&D), like Amway, are a supplier of product... In their case it's more obvious, in Amway's case it's evidently by ruling of the FTC.... I was pointing out that none of those companies reports retail sales. They are not in retail.

Deloitte Touche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Touche_Tohmatsu), one of the world's largest accounting and auditing firms, disagrees with your assessment.

Still a silly discussion given the reporting standards changed a decade ago.

icerat

30th April 2008, 03:28 AM

(Well, I wanted to buy the soap, but the jackass I was talking to kept insisting that he wasn't in the business of selling the stuff, he was in the relationship-building and enterprise-creation business.... To this day my shirts are still dirty because no one will sell me a damned box of Amway detergent unless I have the secret handshake or whatever it is. And I don't do "joining" very well.... I've never shared my toys and I tend to put a whooppee cushion on the chair of the lead guy at corporate pep rallies.)

Well if you want some, I can arrange it ;)

This brings me back to one of my original points in this thread - confusing the way some people operate an MLM with the actual model itself.

Raoul could NOT buy, at his level, from Amway or his upline, whichever it was... at as good a price as he could get from the wholesaler/distributor on Essex Street, who sold a professional and superior product quite equal to the Amway. Ergo, trickle-down pain works in the equation.

Well, frankly I doubt it was as equal to SA8 in the factors I mentioned. Indeed I almost guarantee it (and independent assessments, eg Consumer Reports agree). However, so what? He found a product that did the job he wanted cheaper elsewhere, he changed. Welcome to the world of business.

Foolmewunz

30th April 2008, 04:58 AM

icerat

30th April 2008, 06:44 AM

IceRat,

Lighten up. Business doesn't have to be blood and guts on the tracks.... You take this far too seriously. I'm in a totally different business, just your average wage slave, but I've been doing it for forty-two years and I'm good at it, but it doesn't have to be so damned serious.

mate, the misconceptions, overgeneralizations and outright lies about our business model on the 'net are directly damaging my and many other peoples business. Sometimes it seriously gets me p***ed off.

You're a lone crusader here. If the model works for you, then good for you, but as pointed out, there are far too many of us who know people who got singed (I'm not using "burned" because I don't have any extreme examples, personally) and lost their original few hundred bucks after realizing that they just weren't the Tony Roberts type and after the high of the initial rah rah rah, they couldn't convince anyone to get on board.

I think you mean Tony Robbins :-). Again you're overgeneralizing. I've actually had a prospect fall asleep at one of the professional business presentations I took him to, and I nearly did too - it could have done with a little "rah rah rah".

As for people who've been "singed", if they didn't think they got something worthwhile out of it, they could have gone their money back.

If you're into it, that's your call. I once pan-handled for about three hours just to see what it was like, and made about thirty bucks - in an era when ten bucks an hour, tax free, was good money. But I couldn't do it, again.... it just seemed somehow "wrong". And before you go jumping up on that tall steed again,.... NO, I'm not comparing Amway to begging; just relating something that I couldn't see myself doing, and hustling people to jump on the Amway bandwagon is one of those things.

So don't "hustle them". All Amway is, is a bunch of really great products and an offer for them to handle most of the pain in the a** logistics of a traditional business for you. Anything else, including whether to "hustle" or "rah rah" people or not, is entirely up to you.

You guys have also been in this debate for far too many pages... one tends to get weary after a while. You're not going to wear each other down via the Chinese water torture, so why not give it a break?

Already made that decision, you may have noticed.

There are a crapload of other interesting areas on the JREF(forums) you ought to look into. Drop into a few, you might find you have more in common with folks 'round these parts than you realize.

No "realizing" necessary. I'm an atheist, a scientist, and a skeptic. I've been reading the JREF site since it launched. This is part of why I get so irritated - some folk who are otherwise perfectly sensible and rational seem to throw "science" and "evidence" out the door when it comes to some topics. One particularly irritating example being Robert Todd Carroll's generally laudable Skeptic's Dictionary, which has an article on Amway which links to a number of discredited websites by anti-mlm zealots as well as promoting some of the well worn extreme over-generalization's and myths that are unfortunately all too commonly believed. What's worse is that Carroll will not even accept correspondence on the topic. Undoubtedly this has been fueled by the rantings of some pro-mlm zealots, but to simply close one's mind to counterarguments and counterevidence is alarming. Heck, even the article is titled Amway, Quixtar, Team of Destiny, Team (http://www.skepdic.com/amway.html). The Team aka Team of Destiny organisation was only ever a small part of Amway in the US, and globally completely insignificant - yet they make the title of his article? What's even worse is this organisation was kicked out of Quixtar nearly a year ago, yet the SkepDic article remains, and is repeated and linked to around the internet.

In any case I am reading and participating in other threads. If I'd had the patience I would have spent a year ignoring this topic, got a bunch of folk here all saying "what an intelligent, knowledgeable guy who thinks just like me!" and then started explaining MLM. That would have challenged some folk :D

Almo

30th April 2008, 07:48 AM

TimHau - this is a classic example of what I was talking about earlier - pyramid scams are calling themselves MLM and destroying the reputation of legitimate MLMs.

A legitimate MLM is like a legitimate psychic, though worse in some ways, and better in others. Better because a few people do in fact make money. Worse because a few people do in fact make money.

EDIT: Thought I'd better be a little more clear. I'm referring to whether the scam in question does what it says it does or not; Amway allegedly helps people earn money, psychics allegedly make accuracte predictions.

icerat

30th April 2008, 09:44 AM

Psychic: accurate predictions outside of chance - zero
Amway: helped people make money (no chance involved) - hundreds of thousands, pehaps millions.

Yeah, perfect analogy there Almo :cool:

Almo

30th April 2008, 12:37 PM

Psychic: accurate predictions outside of chance - zero
Amway: helped people make money (no chance involved) - hundreds of thousands, pehaps millions.

Ponzi schemes have helps people make millions, too.

icerat

30th April 2008, 12:53 PM

What a load of rubbish. Do you have even a skerrick of evidence to back up that claim?

Almo

30th April 2008, 01:01 PM

I could say the same about your claim that Amway may have helped "millions" earn money. In fact, I will.

Amway: helped people make money (no chance involved) - hundreds of thousands, pehaps millions.

What a load of rubbish. Do you have even a skerrick of evidence to back up that claim?

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ponzi

At that time, Ponzi was making $250,000 a day.

icerat

30th April 2008, 02:30 PM

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't.

Over 5000 people have qualified at Diamond or above. We have collated several thousand of their names at www.amwaywiki.com (http://www.amwaywiki.com). Amway will be publishing a 50th anniversary book next year listing all qualifiers.

According to internal statistics revealed in a court case last year, the average Diamond in the US has 32 platinums in their business. 5000*32=160,000 platinums. Throw in the "over" 5000, the fact groups tend to be larger internationally, and the platinums outside of Diamond groups (I personally know people in this category) and you're getting into the 200,000 plus range - hundreds of thousands.

Average platinum income = US$47,000/yr.

So at least a couple of hundred thousand have made at least that much at some stage. Throw in the fact that I, for example, first reached profitability after expenses when my business was a little more than 10% of the size of a platinum, and each platinum will typically have 30+ people in that situation, and you start into the "perhaps millions" have made money.

Your turn.

Almo

30th April 2008, 02:34 PM

5,000 made money off how many stooges?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ponzi

ETA: I guess MLM is a religion. People cling to it ruthlessly. I've seen people who were victims of actual Ponzi schemes still defend it after it's been exposed. They say, "I made money." That's the insidious nature of the Ponzi scheme. Read that Wikipedia article carefully, particularly the parts of about Ponzi paying out millions of dollars to people when his structure was criticized and panics appeared.

Keep up with Amway if you like it. But those of us who know what MLM really is will continue to deride it, and help people avoid falling into the trap of giving people like you money for a false dream.

icerat

30th April 2008, 03:06 PM

5,000 made money off how many stooges?

We don't "make money" off people any more than your corner store "makes money" by folk buying stuff of them.

Seems you have a problem with pretty much the entire modern capitalist system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ponzi

Point?

ETA: I guess MLM is a religion. People cling to it ruthlessly.

You're right, to hell with facts, evidence, and logic, backed up by personal experience. I should just blindly believe what you say.

I don't "cling ruthlessly" to anything, but if your going to make stupid claims about my business, I'll defend it.

I've seen people who were victims of actual Ponzi schemes still defend it after it's been exposed. They say, "I made money." That's the insidious nature of the Ponzi scheme. Read that Wikipedia article carefully, particularly the parts of about Ponzi paying out millions of dollars to people when his structure was criticized and panics appeared.

Actually, my apologies, I misread your original claim. I thought you said millions had made money with ponzi schemes.

So what's your point? Are you implying the only way to make millions is through illegal scams? Patently absurd.

Are you implying MLM is a ponzi scheme? You're just confirming your ignorance. Ignorance can be fixed if you're willing to learn. I suspect you are not.

Keep up with Amway if you like it. But those of us who know what MLM really is will continue to deride it, and help people avoid falling into the trap of giving people like you money for a false dream.

Oh, yes those of you who know what MLM really is. Those of you that have The Truth. The 90+ national governments and umpteen state governments have been tricked. The thousands of companies that do business with MLMs have been tricked. The business leaders, politicians ( including multiple Presidents of the United States), the UN including UNESCO and UNICEF, academics, researchers, lawyers, accounts, sports stars and their lawyers and managers etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

They've all had the wool pulled over their eyes for nearly 50 years. But YOU and a select few .... you know THE TRUTH.

If that's not cult-like behaviour then I don't know what is.

Almo

1st May 2008, 07:35 AM

We don't "make money" off people any more than your corner store "makes money" by folk buying stuff of them.

Yes, you do. I've seen all the useless tapes and products. I've seen the catalogs with overpriced items. I've seen my best friend in college buying his own stuff on Amway, despite it costing more than at the corner store. The extra cost? It goes into the heavy MLM structure so well described by JohnnyFive.

Seems you have a problem with pretty much the entire modern capitalist system.

I have a problem with people being taken advantage of. False advertising is illegal for a reason. Monopolies (in theory) are illegal for a reason. Unfettered capitalism has already been proven to be a horrible system.

You're right, to hell with facts, evidence, and logic, backed up by personal experience. I should just blindly believe what you say.

This post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3644763&postcount=178) is loaded with logic which you've done a poor job trying to discredit.

I don't "cling ruthlessly" to anything, but if your going to make stupid claims about my business, I'll defend it.

Good luck. But as we've seen, you'll defend it at all costs, as does the cultist.

Are you implying MLM is a ponzi scheme? You're just confirming your ignorance.

It behaves quite similarly. The money comes in from marks who will never see profit, which is then fed to previous investors. The only thing that keeps it legal is that the marks buy something to invest. That's pushing the letter of the law, and is a poor disguise. People are just dumb and buy into the false dream.

Oh, yes those of you who know what MLM really is. Those of you that have The Truth. The 90+ national governments and umpteen state governments have been tricked. The thousands of companies that do business with MLMs have been tricked. The business leaders, politicians ( including multiple Presidents of the United States), the UN including UNESCO and UNICEF, academics, researchers, lawyers, accounts, sports stars and their lawyers and managers etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

They've all had the wool pulled over their eyes for nearly 50 years. But YOU and a select few .... you know THE TRUTH.[/quote]

Argument from incredulity?

People still believe in god after thousands of years; that doesn't make god any more real.

If that's not cult-like behaviour then I don't know what is.

Hard to see it when you're in it. That applies to whichever of us is truly deluded. I'll take the calm mathematical description of JohnnyFive's post over your rantings any day.

icerat

1st May 2008, 08:33 AM

Yes, you do. I've seen all the useless tapes and products. I've seen the catalogs with overpriced items. I've seen my best friend in college buying his own stuff on Amway, despite it costing more than at the corner store. The extra cost? It goes into the heavy MLM structure so well described by JohnnyFive.

You can buy Amway's stuff in the corner store, so you're either ignorant or lying. As for the tapes, Amway barely sells any, there sold by other companies and are a different issue altogether, again displyaing your ignorance. Amway's products, when compared to others of similar quality, <i>as determined by independent agencies</i> are generally competitive with the competition. Artistry for example, something like 25% of Amway's business, cannot be bought in any corner store (outside China) and is competing with L'Oreal, Clarins, Estee Lauder etc. With those comparisons they are similarly priced or cheaper.

Do I trust Alto's anecdotal claims that are provably false, or do I go with independent professional assessments?

I have a problem with people being taken advantage of.

So do I

False advertising is illegal for a reason.

Yup, absolutely agree.

Monopolies (in theory) are illegal for a reason. Unfettered capitalism has already been proven to be a horrible system.

So what's your point? Got any Amway materials that are false advertising? No idea what the "monopoly" claim has to do with anything.

This post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3644763&postcount=178) is loaded with logic which you've done a poor job trying to discredit.

Logic is useless if you begin with flawed assumptions. JohnnyFive begins with flawed assumptions, one being he thinks our business is all about recruiting, another being that his model doesn't apply to any business, when in fact saturation applies to all businesses, and a third being that the Amway business is static and unchanging and doesn't respond to market forces. All businesses face potential market saturation of their products, why on earth would MLM be any different? Why on earth should MLM be considered discredited based on an argument that applies to all businesses.

Good luck. But as we've seen, you'll defend it at all costs, as does the cultist.

And you're defending your false assumptions at all costs, as does the cultist. The difference is that my opinion is backed by evidence and expert analysis, yours is based on misconceptions.

It behaves quite similarly. The money comes in from marks who will never see profit, which is then fed to previous investors. The only thing that keeps it legal is that the marks buy something to invest. That's pushing the letter of the law, and is a poor disguise. People are just dumb and buy into the false dream.

What a load of unadulterated rot. The money comes in from people buying products to use not "invest". If you're "stocking up" on products in some kind of twisted believe it will make you money then (a) you're going out of your way to break MLM's rules (most certainly Amways) (b) if you get others to do this then you are indeed running an illegal pyramid (the products don't suddenly make it legal) and (c) you're a complete idiot (d) you can do this in traditional business as well, you're still an idiot

Which takes me again back to my original point. You're not talking about Amway or other legitimate MLMs, you're talking about people doing something else, which quite probably is illegal.

Argument from incredulity?

People still believe in god after thousands of years; that doesn't make god any more real.

You're ignoring the fact I mentioned evidence. I'm also not aware for example that numerous courts have declared any gods to exist, not in modern times anyway.

Hard to see it when you're in it. That applies to whichever of us is truly deluded. I'll take the calm mathematical description of JohnnyFive's post over your rantings any day.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the judges, lawyers, business academics, corporate leaders, tax authorities etc etc etc who have checked out Amway have been "in it".

If you want to take JohnnyFive's irrelevant mathematical description and misapply it to what I'm talking about, that's your choice.

Susan Gerbic

1st May 2008, 09:25 AM

JohnnyFive begins with flawed assumptions, one being he thinks our business is all about recruiting,

Dude, this is what I keep saying. I have been approached only a few times, but EVERY time it is to be recruited to sell Amway. I have never seen a Amway product catalog, nor do the people hoping to recruit me have one on them.

Now I have received tons of catalogs in the mail over the years, things I would never purchase and didn't ask for. NEVER have I received an Amway catalog for their products. You meet an Avon lady on the street, and you bet she will be carrying one or two Avon books and maybe a sample of something.

Why doesn't Amway try to sell it's products? Because they are really only interested in recruiting. The product sales are just to keep the company on the line.

Susan

JonnyFive

1st May 2008, 10:05 AM

I didn't actually assume that MLM was "all about recruiting." I pointed out that, given the MLM model of organization, there is a strong incentive to recruit a broader downline. Also, they don't seem to do a particularly good job of providing protected sales territory against people from the same company. Those factors make them more susceptible to certain negative market factors than would otherwise be the case.

They're certainly not the only kind of business that has this problem. AFLAC, for example, has serious issues in some markets with their own salespeople competiting against each other in addition to the other STD providers out there (i.e. every life insurance company in existence). I never said the problem was unique to MLM, just that the MLM model tends to accentuate the problem.

The defining feature of multi-level marketing is that it involves the inclusion of the upline/downline structure on top of what is already involved in the distribution and supply chains. This upline/downline structure then involves some kind of pass-through bonus or commission. Downline distributors can be recruited by individual distributors, which is probably the biggest thing that separates the MLM model from anything else.

The whole point of my original post on that was to talk about MLM very generally, not what Amway specifically is doing with their version of the model. We got sidetracked into that, I know, but frankly I could care less about Amway or Quixtar or whatever the hell they're called these days.

Amway is not the defining end of what MLM is, and they're done plenty of things to tone down the MLM aspects of their business.

In fact, most of your responses to my general post have been about how Amway specifically is mitigating the worst aspects of the MLM model in their specific business (things like limiting pass-through commission). I'm sure that is in their best interest, as it helps attract new IBOs and prevent legal troubles, but it doesn't really do much to specifically defend the abstract concept of the MLM.

I haven't seen you (icerat) arguing that an unrestricted MLM-style business, complete with no cap on passthrough commission and zero effort to protect different downlines from competing with each other, is somehow a great business model. No, it all comes down to Amway, which is something I only tied into that particular post as an afterthought. This is odd, considering that Amway has taken steps specifically to reduce the worst of the MLM elements of the business (for example, the move to direct fulfillment for IBOs rather than needing to order product through upline, which is a good example of how adding layers to a business can hurt its ability to operate competitively).

Edit to add: I think I see the source of some confusion. I should have written that post as two. The latter half of the post was talking about the issue of the AQ published stats, but that's a separate issue from the analysis of the general MLM model. I do not use "MLM" as a stand-in for "Amway/Quixtar," in case that isn't sufficiently clear.

icerat

1st May 2008, 11:44 AM

I didn't actually assume that MLM was "all about recruiting." I pointed out that, given the MLM model of organization, there is a strong incentive to recruit a broader downline.

The "incentive" only arises because it's much cheaper and easier to "expand" than in traditional businesses, where there is much greater expense and risk involved.

In the end the actual incentive is exactly the same - to create more sales volume and thus more profit.

Also, they don't seem to do a particularly good job of providing protected sales territory against people from the same company. Those factors make them more susceptible to certain negative market factors than would otherwise be the case.

Umm ... we're not "from the same company". We don't work for Amway. We are our own businesses. We're marketing the same products, but as far as I'm aware if I open up a corner store in an area where there's already other shops selling P&G products, P&G isn't going to stop me trying to sell their products are they? And they don't offer me a full refund if I can't either.

Again, you're talking about issues that are legitimate issues in any business and making it seem as if it's a special problem for MLM. Another thing you missed - market saturation comes about due to lack of demand for the product, right? It doesn't come about because of "too many outlets". What can happen, as you outlined in your analysis, is if there is too many outlets, then there's not enough business to go around, so each individual business has a hard time making a profit. Some factors you ignored - (a) much of the "competition" in any area is likely not to be competition, but wholesale customers and as such (b) as you "expand" then you have incentive to do less retailing and focus on being a wholesaler. Also (c) the operating expenses are *a lot* less than traditional outlets, so for any given sales volume a lot more outlets can be profitably supported in this model than in traditional retailing.

What's more there *is* controls on the number of "reps" in any area. If folk try to sell the products and can't, then they go do something else and get refunds. This is an expense for Amway, so if it became a serious problem then it would be addressed. It's never been a problem.

They're certainly not the only kind of business that has this problem. AFLAC, for example, has serious issues in some markets with their own salespeople competiting against each other in addition to the other STD providers out there (i.e. every life insurance company in existence). I never said the problem was unique to MLM, just that the MLM model tends to accentuate the problem.

It also attenuates the problem through the transition from retailer->wholesaler and compensating for building teams.

The defining feature of multi-level marketing is that it involves the inclusion of the upline/downline structure on top of what is already involved in the distribution and supply chains. This upline/downline structure then involves some kind of pass-through bonus or commission. Downline distributors can be recruited by individual distributors, which is probably the biggest thing that separates the MLM model from anything else.

As I've already pointed out, this "structure on top of" is little different to traditional distribution.

According to the FTC, more than 70% of the time the model is like this -

Amway->IBO->IBO->IBO->Consumer

contrast with -

Manufacturer->Wholesaler->Retailer->Consumer

This is only one layer more in Amway, and that's ignoring things like "jobbers" that can often act as intermediate brokers. What's more with Amway this is typical only a "virtual" distribution model. It's actually most commonly -

Amway->Consumer.

The whole point of my original post on that was to talk about MLM very generally, not what Amway specifically is doing with their version of the model. We got sidetracked into that, I know, but frankly I could care less about Amway or Quixtar or whatever the hell they're called these days.

Quixtar's being subsumed back into Amway, so that makes it easier. When talking about MLM, Amway essentially invented it (strictly speaking Nutrilite, which Amway now owns) and as by far the biggest it essential *is* the model. Other *legitimate* variations don't actually vary that much.

Amway is not the defining end of what MLM is, and they're done plenty of things to tone down the MLM aspects of their business.

Okaayyyy ... so what, in your mind, does define MLM?

In fact, most of your responses to my general post have been about how Amway specifically is mitigating the worst aspects of the MLM model in their specific business (things like limiting pass-through commission).

This exists in pretty much any legitimate MLM model I've looked at. You sure you haven't looked at illegal pyramids claiming to be MLM?

I'm sure that is in their best interest, as it helps attract new IBOs and prevent legal troubles, but it doesn't really do much to specifically defend the abstract concept of the MLM.

I'd be interested to see what you think "abstract concept of MLM" is. In my opinion the whole idea that MLM is somehow significantly different to traditional distribution is a misconception.

I haven't seen you (icerat) arguing that an unrestricted MLM-style business, complete with no cap on passthrough commission and zero effort to protect different downlines from competing with each other, is somehow a great business model.

I'm not aware of any MLM in the world that operates that way. That sounds like an illegal pyramid.

No, it all comes down to Amway, which is something I only tied into that particular post as an afterthought. This is odd, considering that Amway has taken steps specifically to reduce the worst of the MLM elements of the business (for example, the move to direct fulfillment for IBOs rather than needing to order product through upline, which is a good example of how adding layers to a business can hurt its ability to operate competitively).

The FTC figures given before about 4 layers from manufacturer to consumer are from the 1970s, well before direct fulfillment. The great majority of MLMs use direct fulfillment today. Off the top of my head I can't think of any that don't.

Edit to add: I think I see the source of some confusion. I should have written that post as two. The latter half of the post was talking about the issue of the AQ published stats, but that's a separate issue from the analysis of the general MLM model. I do not use "MLM" as a stand-in for "Amway/Quixtar," in case that isn't sufficiently clear.

Amway pretty much invented the idea (albeit as Nutrilite), is by far the biggest proponent of it (nearly 4 times the size of it's nearest competitior) and is likely around 10% of the total market, with literally thousands of participant companies most of which copied the Amway model. Herbalife, another well known MLM, uses virtually the same model. So does Pampered Chef, owned by Warren Buffett. So do Mary Kay and Avon. So does NuSkin/Pharmanex. Binary plans like Usana's are a little different, but they don't have "unlmited payout layers" either. They don't help by virtually claiming they do in some literature, but they don't - it, like Amway and the rest mentioned, is limited by volume, after which the initial MLM structure no longer applies. Matrix plans (like Melaleuca) are different again, but they *explicitly* limit the payout levels, rather than do it implicitly through volume limits.

I'm pretty certain we've covered well over 50% of the MLM company market place in those companies. I still suspect you are evaluating illegal pyramids and ponzi schemes that claim to be MLM, in an effort to garner respectibility, rather than legitimate companies that *are* MLM.

jimbob

1st May 2008, 01:23 PM

As a mostly lurker, with only a little knowledge of this area, I have the following question, based on a pseudo-ecological analysis:

What proprotion of income is directly from sales, and what proportion from "recruits"?

The income from recurits is unsustainable, as it requires an exponentially increasing pupulation to sell into. The recurits would also begin to take sales from their "parent" unless they "colonised" new areas. If the recruits didn't do this, but were actually profitible for their "mother", then how can their products be price-equivalent when selling against someone who doesn't need to support all the "upstream" levels?

Someone mentioned this earlier, when they said that competent salespeople wouldn't touch the MLM model with a bargepole, as they would be setting up competitors for themselves.

In legitimate MLMs no income is earned from recruiting, it's all from product sales. What you're describing there is an illegal pyramid. Unfortunately of course, illegal pyramids like to tell people they're legitimate MLMs, hence the all too common confusion.

As regard "setting up competitors", that's a quite bizarre idea that seems to be doing the rounds the last year or so. If you own a clothing store, and start as the sole employee, is it considered "setting up competitors" by having sales staff, who might sell to a customer that you might otherwise sold to yourself? Strictly speaking it is, since you'd likely get a lesser profit for a unit sold by the sales staff than if you'd done it yourself, but I've never heard anyone criticise a store for having sales staff since they're "competition".

So is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_marketing) wiki post an inaccurate description of Amway's business model?

Independent unsalaried salespeople of multi-level marketing referred to as distributors (associates, independent business owners, franchise owners, sales consultants, consultants, independent agents, etc.), represent the parent company and are rewarded a commission relative to the volume of product sold through each of their independent businesses (organizations). Independent distributors develop their organization by either building an active customer base, who buy direct from the parent company and / or by recruiting a downline of independent distributors who also build a customer base, expanding the overall organization. Additionally, distributors can also earn a profit by retailing products which they purchased from the parent company at wholesale price.

Distributors earn a commission based on the sales efforts of their organization, which includes their independent sale efforts as well as the leveraged sales efforts of their downline. This arrangement is similar to franchise arrangements where royalties are paid from the sales of individual franchise operations to the franchisor as well as to an area or region manager. Commissions are paid to multi-level marketing distributors according to the company’s compensation plan. There can be multiple levels of people receiving royalties from one person's sales.

I will rephrase my previous question;

Distributors earn a commission based on the sales efforts of their organization, which includes their independent sale efforts as well as the leveraged sales efforts of their downline.

And these sub-distributers can also create their own organisation?

Any end-customer would have to pay for not just one set of middlemen, but to give the whole upline their cuts at each stage.

In a finite market, I can't see how it is sustainable.

As regard "setting up competitors", that's a quite bizarre idea that seems to be doing the rounds the last year or so. If you own a clothing store, and start as the sole employee, is it considered "setting up competitors" by having sales staff, who might sell to a customer that you might otherwise sold to yourself?

In a shop, the owner pays the staff wages, the staff don't pay the shop owner for the privilege of working. They might get a commission, or a percentage of sales attributed to them, but that isn't them paying the shop owner a cut.

NewtonTrino

1st May 2008, 03:23 PM

I'm pretty certain we've covered well over 50% of the MLM company market place in those companies. I still suspect you are evaluating illegal pyramids and ponzi schemes that claim to be MLM, in an effort to garner respectibility, rather than legitimate companies that *are* MLM.

Amway's MLM opportunity, while crappy, is legit if you follow their rules.

However, when you get into Amway/Quixtar you aren't just getting into Amway, you are joining an entire organization like Network21. This is where they transition from being a legit, although crappy, business into a ponzi scheme. The tools business, which is where the majority of big pin profit comes from, IS a pyramid scheme. This is the genius of it, they've hijacked a legit idea and turn it into a cult/brainwashing network. This secondary business is the one that causes the problem.

Icerat, how much does it cost to be in N21 per month in terms of cd's, books, function and other motivational material? Why is this information so secret?

icerat

1st May 2008, 03:56 PM

So is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_marketing) wiki post an inaccurate description of Amway's business model?

It's reasonably close, but there's nothing in there about downline being "competitors" outside what I already described.

And these sub-distributers can also create their own organisation?

Any end-customer would have to pay for not just one set of middlemen, but to give the whole upline their cuts at each stage.

The "whole upline" doesn't get a cut at each stage. As I've said ad nauseum the MLM compensation plan cuts out at a certain stage.

In a finite market, I can't see how it is sustainable.

Of course not, though actually, even if this was how it operated it could go on indefinitely if you factor in activity rates, death rates, birth rates etc etc etc. When I was first looking at the industry and under the same misconceptions about recruiting and payment levels etc, I setup a model doing this and discovered a whole bunch of scenarios that would never lead to saturation.

In a shop, the owner pays the staff wages, the staff don't pay the shop owner for the privilege of working. They might get a commission, or a percentage of sales attributed to them, but that isn't them paying the shop owner a cut.

We don't really do that with Amway either. Indeed in some markets there's not even a membership fee, in many others there's no fee if your actually active and doing things. Even that aside, what Amway does do for a business owner, the fees are ridiculous. We are not employees.

In any case, that's irrelevant to the point of the analogy. The point is that if you're a single sales person in your own business, and you hire others, you effectively lose a percentage on each sale. Exact same thing in Amway. As such they can be considered competitors. But they're also making you money through increased sales. In Amway, a person I sponsor into the business is effectively my wholesale customers. Yes, they compete for retail sales, but if I have say 10 wholesale customers out their retailing my volume and profit is likely going to easily surpass what I'd do if I was trying to do all the sales myself.

NewtonTrino

1st May 2008, 03:59 PM

We don't really do that with Amway either. Indeed in some markets there's not even a membership fee, in many others there's no fee if your actually active and doing things. Even that aside, what Amway does do for a business owner, the fees are ridiculous. We are not employees.

So if you are Network21 in some country where there are no fees from Amway, how much do people normally spend on N21 materials?

Why are you not willing to discuss the cost of the motivational organization you belong to? What are you hiding?

icerat

1st May 2008, 04:00 PM

The tools business, which is where the majority of big pin profit comes from, IS a pyramid scheme.

This is BS. Might be true for some, but it's not for the majority. In the organisation I work with (the largest BSM company in the world) the average Diamond makes less than a third from the ancillery business than they do from Amway. Yes, I have all the actual figures, including rebates on BSM, speakers fees etc.

You're again extrapolating from a few (probably outdated) cases and incorrectly applying them to the whole population

Icerat, how much does it cost to be in N21 per month in terms of cd's, books, function and other motivational material? Why is this information so secret?

It's not secret. Why are the answers to the questions I asked you being kept secret? I told you, I'd answer your more recent questions if you start answering mine. You refused.

NewtonTrino

1st May 2008, 04:15 PM

This is BS. Might be true for some, but it's not for the majority. In the organisation I work with (the largest BSM company in the world) the average Diamond makes less than a third from the ancillery business than they do from Amway. Yes, I have all the actual figures, including rebates on BSM, speakers fees etc.

You gave us some figures before that were woefully incomplete. Do you actually have the complete breakdown of tools profit? Or is the rest just phantom "expenses"?

In addition you won't tell us how much money a normal distributor pumps into this secondary system, will you? You also won't tell us how much work you put into it or how much money you make. Why not? Are you hiding just show crappy this opportunity is? Why hide it? Why not be honest and let people judge based on the numbers?

You simply DO NOT HAVE THE INFORMATION about where all of the tools money goes. What's the breakdown for functions and other events for example? Do you get to see P&L statements for functions? (somehow I doubt you do!!)

Your business "opportunity" is one of the biggest ongoing scams around. Wake up man!

On a side note I was reading the Amazon reviews for Ruth Carter's book "Amway Motivational Organizations: Behind the Smoke and Mirrors" (which I have NOT read) and it was interesting to see the review trend. Basically a bunch of 5 stars from people who had been burned and then a few 1-stars from Ambots. Not much in between. Sort of the same as this discussion ;)

icerat

1st May 2008, 04:18 PM

Still refusing to answer simple questions huh, NewtonTrino?

What are you hiding?

NewtonTrino

1st May 2008, 04:34 PM

Well, I'm hiding my identity for one.

Other than that I'm not making any assertions about how great my business is. If you want to talk about how great my business is I'll gladly talk to you for hours about how the business works, where the money is, how much I make etc. Especially if I was going to try and get you involved as a partner!

icerat

1st May 2008, 04:45 PM

Nice dodge full of straw men NewtonTrino. All I'm trying to ascertain is how recent and extensive your claimed experience is, and you refuse to answer.

Clearly you have something to hide.

NewtonTrino

1st May 2008, 04:59 PM

My experience is both recent (as in my Dad is ACTIVELY building the business and I have many people I associate with through him that are active) and extensive. Most of my personal experience dates from the 90's when I was writing computer software for use by distributors (including people with large large large groups including one diamond who eventually split off his own AMO!). In addition I associated with many pins and their kids growing up going to rallies every weekend listening to all of the speakers, listening to all of the tapes, reading many of the books and actively prospecting with my Dad over a period of almost 30 years.

Part of my argument is that this "new" breed of AMO's (Amway Motivational Organization) like N21 is same crap, different day. The did open up some documentation on the tools business, but it's still the same scam. Still the same brainwashing crap, still the same money going down the toilet for functions, books etc. They had no choice but to admit that the tools business existed!! So they limp along trying to make it look more legit, but it's a wolf in sheeps clothing. Obviously they have you convinced. Bottom line, they are still making bigtime dollars from it. Of course the Corp. is also trying to hide the fact that growth in NA is close to non-existent so even if you sign up as a new distributor today you better know some people in India or China.

My second argument is that even if the "new breed" IS better that it's still a crap opportunity that has been tainted badly enough by the kingpins and their AMO's that anyone who is smart will stay away.

Caveat Emptor people.

icerat

1st May 2008, 05:18 PM

Most of my personal experience dates from the 90's when I was writing computer software for use by distributors (including people with large large large groups including one diamond who eventually split off his own AMO!).

Right, so personal experience more than a decade old, and it appears just from one LOS/LOA and it's offshoots.

In addition I associated with many pins and their kids growing up going to rallies every weekend listening to all of the speakers, listening to all of the tapes, reading many of the books and actively prospecting with my Dad over a period of almost 30 years.

All from the same LOS/LOA and it's offshoots.

In how many different countries?

Part of my argument is that this "new" breed of AMO's (Amway Motivational Organization) like N21 is same crap, different day.

N21 has been around 20 years. Not exactly "new".

The did open up some documentation on the tools business, but it's still the same scam. Still the same brainwashing crap, still the same money going down the toilet for functions, books etc. They had no choice but to admit that the tools business existed!!

Uhuh. I ask again.

How many N21 CDs have you listened to? How many N21 Seminars have you attended? Can you name 5 books recommended by N21 in the last 5 years?

And answer the same for MM, Schwartz, Heckel, Top4 and any others that have nothing to do with the one corner of the world you're father is associated with.

Don't dodge. Answer. How much experience do you have with all these other organizations you're making claims about?

You know one thing that has always amazed me? Folk claim the tools business is a secret, and then in the next breath they do things like quote a 24 year old article in Forbes to confirm there's money made from it. Some secret. :rolleyes:

Me, I was surprised to find people were surprised there was money in it. Seems pretty obvious to me that folk don't run businesses for nothing. Folk don't do the speaking circuit for nothing. Others apparently are surprised by this.

So they limp along trying to make it look more legit, but it's a wolf in sheeps clothing. Obviously they have you convinced. Bottom line, they are still making bigtime dollars from it. Of course the Corp. is also trying to hide the fact that growth in NA is close to non-existent so even if you sign up as a new distributor today you better know some people in India or China.

Blah blah blah. More secrets. They publish their sales figures every year, but NT here says they're hiding the fact they've been struggling in the US. Yup, hiding it in press releases and websites, where noone will ever find it! :rolleyes:

Of course, I'm sure he also claims the corp is doing nothing about folk who do the wrong thing, and ignores the fact the corp has "kicked out" dozens and dozens of "high level" folk the last decade. Any rational person would think that might affect their sales ....

My second argument is that even if the "new breed" IS better that it's still a crap opportunity that has been tainted badly enough by the kingpins and their AMO's that anyone who is smart will stay away.

You haven't made an argument, you've just made lots of emotional claims, apparently backed by little more than some experience limited to just one part of Amway in just one country.

balrog666

1st May 2008, 08:19 PM

icerat

2nd May 2008, 04:59 AM

but you wouldn't want to risk weakening the "argument" by actually requiring any evidence to support it, would you? :rolleyes:

NewtonTrino

2nd May 2008, 09:31 AM

Evidence? Are you totally on crack?

There are literally THOUSANDS of people who have been scammed that will admit it! (probably 100's of 1000's who don't even want to talk about it lol) Go read online there are many many sites talking about people's experience in "the business". The evidence is absolutely overwhelming that the big pins have been scamming millions of dollars from people by getting them to buy millions of brainwashing tapes and attend thousands of brainwashing functions. Much of this is documented because of the lawsuits flying back and forth in addition to the many people that have gotten to see the books of different big pins (including myself, remember I'm not arguing second hand information here!). This isn't a couple of people that are mad because they "failed" this is thousands of people including ex Emeralds, Diamonds, Platinums etc. that talk about how screwed up this business is. Multiple books have been written including Merchants of Deception and Ruth Carter's book. I know they aren't about N21 and it's "different". Ya right, they just realized they needed to be a bit more wily because the suckers were figuring out the game.

Where the HELL do you get off saying there is no evidence? The burden of proof is on you to show that Amway and any of their motivational organizations like N21 are not scams. So far you have refused to tell us ANYTHING about the financials you can expect. How much do they recommend you spend per month of books, cd's, function and other services for example? Tell us a bit about your business to justify yourself as an "expert".

You simply aren't high enough in the hierarchy to know ANYTHING about where the money goes from all this. Do you truly believe that the tools volume discount chart you showed us is complete? Are you really that much of a brainwashed fool?

Almo

2nd May 2008, 12:44 PM

icerat

2nd May 2008, 01:39 PM

Evidence? Are you totally on crack?
There are literally THOUSANDS of people who have been scammed that will admit it!

Then why don't they? The FTC just investigated MLMs as part of their proposal regarding a Business Opportunities Rule and found there was so few complaints regarding MLM that it wasn't worth worrying about them for inclusion.

Even if true, let's do the math. In the last 15 years there's probably been around 10 million folk, just in the US, who have been interested enough to at least sign up and check out Amway. Let's say your "thousands" is ten thousand.

That's 0.1%. Yup, huge problem. And that's assuming there's as many as 10,000 who think they've been scammed, a claim of which there is little evidence to support, given Quixtar get's single digit complaints a year to the BBB, the FTC found so few problems as to not even warrent concern.

(probably 100's of 1000's who don't even want to talk about it lol) Go read online there are many many sites talking about people's experience in "the business".

I've done that, and I've read *all* of them. Amquix, which claims to be the biggest site, posts about 30 complaints a year and that's from all of the english speaking world, not just the US. Most of Amquix's emails are from people saying "was checking this out and found your site!"

What's more, an analysis I and another person undertook of Amquix and Webraw, another site, found that virtually all of the stories published came from the same LOS and it's affiliates. Probably not coincidentally the same one you've had experience with.

A recent Australian-focussed website asked for people's australian amway stories, and was promoted on the other "critics" sites. After a couple of months they started reprinting old stories they found elsewhere. There call for horror stories eventually elicited ONE person with a negative.

The evidence is absolutely overwhelming that the big pins have been scamming millions of dollars from people by getting them to buy millions of brainwashing tapes and attend thousands of brainwashing functions.

What evidence? >95% of the "big pins" have never been mentioned anywhere on the internet with regard complaints, nor in any lawsuits.

Much of this is documented because of the lawsuits flying back and forth in addition to the many people that have gotten to see the books of different big pins (including myself, remember I'm not arguing second hand information here!). This isn't a couple of people that are mad because they "failed" this is thousands of people including ex Emeralds, Diamonds, Platinums etc. that talk about how screwed up this business

Thousands? What a load of rubbish. I've read all the lawsuits I can find. If there's some hidden out there involving "thousands", then please let me know what they are.

is. Multiple books have been written including Merchants of Deception and Ruth Carter's book.

Yup, two is definitely multiple. One by a guy who has admitted telling false stories to two different newspapers, and whose "book" couldn't find a publisher so he gave it away free on the internet. The other is how old? And also self-published.

I know they aren't about N21 and it's "different". Ya right, they just realized they needed to be a bit more wily because the suckers were figuring out the game.

N21 is just one of many different organisations. Both the books you mentioned are written by people involved in the same LOS. The same one you work with, the same one involved in virtually all the lawsuits.

95% of the "big pins" and virtually all of the system organisations have no lawsuits and virtually no complaints about them.

Where the HELL do you get off saying there is no evidence? The burden of proof is on you to show that Amway and any of their motivational organizations like N21 are not scams.

I would think that decades of legal operation after being investigated by numerous governments to see if it's a scam would be that evidence. In the parliament of NSW, Australia a member asked if Amway and N21 had been investigated. The response? Yup, checked them out, hardly any complaints about them and nothing to be concerned about.

So far you have refused to tell us ANYTHING about the financials you can expect. How much do they recommend you spend per month of books, cd's, function and other services for example? Tell us a bit about your business to justify yourself as an "expert".

You keep demanding answers but refuse to give any yourself. What are you hiding? Where have I made a claim I should be listened to since I'm an "expert"? I'm citing experts, such as the FTC and other government agencies.

The answer to your question of expenses varies from country to country. The anwer also varies from individual to individual. I have people in my group who the answer would be "nothing", since given their goals it would be a waste of money.

But I'll humour you and give you the recommended "start" for a new person in N21.

Basic CEP (Continuing Education Program) - 5 downloadable MP3s, $27.95/mth
Recommended Book - varies. This months, "The Secret of Supplements" by Gloria Askew & Jerre Paquette is $19.95

In both cases, if someone can't afford it, we'd lend them the materials free of charge.

Business Building Seminar - 9 times a year 4 hour seminar, $20.

Weekend Seminar - 3 times a year, 2 days, $159-$189

Business Previews - weekly, $5-$10 depending on location.

So you're looking at around $130-$140/mth averaged over a whole year. More if you're a couple and both attend things.

The goal is to be covering these expenses (and others like travel) as quickly as possible from retailing to customers.

You simply aren't high enough in the hierarchy to know ANYTHING about where the money goes from all this. Do you truly believe that the tools volume discount chart you showed us is complete? Are you really that much of a brainwashed fool?

My sources (not just IBOs) go pretty much as high you can get, and the data is independently confirmed from other sources, and is internally consistent as well as matching what I would expect given my knowledge of their business operations.

icerat

2nd May 2008, 01:42 PM

I wonder if he thinks continuing to argue this here will server to show potential joiners (not necessarily of his org) how good it is. At best I think reading this thread would generate ambivalence. Well, maybe not. The ones who would be interested after reading it are exactly the kind of people the organization wants. :(

Dude, you're being ridiculous. I don't even live in the US were I guess most of you folk are, so I'm not trying to recruit anyone here.

Ambivalence would be just great. Much better than believing (and spreading) many of the myths, misconceptions, and opinions that have been stated here as factual.

The Atheist

2nd May 2008, 02:02 PM

I wonder if he thinks continuing to argue this here will server to show potential joiners (not necessarily of his org) how good it is.

Nah, he's showing the type of perseverance in the face of adversity necessary to make money out of MLM.

I'm personally thankful icerat showed up. Here's me starting a thread to show up MLMs - it works much better when someone shows up and highlights the other side.

icerat

2nd May 2008, 02:52 PM

Researchers in the field of "success" identify perseverance as possibly the #1 commonality between successful people, no matter what the field, so I'll take that as a compliment.

NewtonTrino

2nd May 2008, 03:43 PM

So you're looking at around $130-$140/mth averaged over a whole year. More if you're a couple and both attend things.

So a little bit more for the spouse might get you to $150 a month? So $150 * 12 = $1800 a year.

So if you have 1000 people in your network (e.g. a decent sized business) thats $1,800,000 a year in tool revenue. How many people does the average diamond have? How much money do they make again ($150k a year)? Even if they only took home 10% of 1000 people that's another $180k per year income (greater than 50% of their profit from tools). Realistically I think it would be more like $500k after factoring in other payouts and expenses. Keep in mind that even platinums only get a small share of this money (as evidenced by your breakdown chart).

There is a lot more money in tools than in product. Period.

icerat

2nd May 2008, 05:06 PM

So a little bit more for the spouse might get you to $150 a month? So $150 * 12 = $1800 a year.

So if you have 1000 people in your network (e.g. a decent sized business) thats $1,800,000 a year in tool revenue.

Sure, if you ignore the fact that typically less than 30% of folk buy *anything* from the system, and probably no more than 5% do all of it for a year.

How many people does the average diamond have? How much money do they make again ($150k a year)?

As per Q* Platinum Index 2004, Average IBOs per qualifed platinum is around 170. As per Team vs Q* lawsuit, Average qualified Platinums per Diamond *and above* is 32, so average IBOs per Diamond *and above* is 5440 plus some personal group.

Even if they only took home 10% of 1000 people that's another $180k per year income (greater than 50% of their profit from tools).

Yeah sure, if the Diamond is taking 100% of the profit, has zero expenses in production and distribution, and pays out 0% to downline platinums, emeralds, and Diamonds.

Is there *any* business of *any* type anywhere in the world that "perfect"?

*DIAMONDS DO NOT GET THE TOOL REVENUES*. That's a complete fantasy on your part. They get a discount/rebate based on the volume they create for the company that supplies the tools, just like pretty much any other discounting/rebate system. I gave you the scale of what is paid out, you ignored it.

You ignored how much they are paid.
You ignored how much they have to pay out.
You ignored the BSM companies and their expenses entirely.

Let's go with 10% fully active. That means say 600 "active" people total in a Diamond *and above* group (and above is important, because the average Diamond income is for Diamonds only, not "and above).

600 active people * $1800/yr = $1,080,000 in BSM *revenues*

That same group of 6000 people, using the Platinum Index statistics, generates $7,485,108 in Amway product revenues.

Realistically I think it would be more like $500k after factoring in other payouts and expenses. Keep in mind that even platinums only get a small share of this money (as evidenced by your breakdown chart).

Oh, so we take the chart for Platinums, but ignore it for Diamonds. Good one.

There is a lot more money in tools than in product. Period.

Only if you chose to live in fantasyland and ignore the reality that businesses have expenses.

Group of 6000 people, revenues only -

BSM revenues=$1,080,000
Amway product revenues=$7,485,108

Definitely a lot more in BSM. Uhuh

NewtonTrino

2nd May 2008, 05:18 PM

Dude, 5440 for Diamond and above so 1000 people actively in the network. I'm using a very conservative TEN F#$*)&#$G PERCENT profit on tools and they STILL make more money from tools than from the business.

Your own numbers bury you here dude.

BSM revenues=$1,080,000
Amway product revenues=$7,485,108

Definitely a lot more in BSM. Uhuh

Ah yes, but there is way more profit to the distributors in the tool money because the production costs are lower and they don't have to pay the corp. Add in the fact that only a small fraction of the revenue goes to anyone below a platinum and on a per-dollar basis those cut in will be making way way more profit per dollar on tools. WAY WAY more profit per dollar (and keep in mind we are working in DOLLARS not in PV here!! So it's actually even better than it looks).

Again, your own numbers bury you. If I couldn't figure out a way to make 10% selling books, tapes, cd's and function tickets I would be an idiot and that right there is enough with only 1000 people plugged in to make more off tools.

I can run this math a bunch of different way but I'm being EXTREMELY conservative. Again more likely I would think 150k from Amway income and something like 500k+ from tools.

You lose.

icerat

3rd May 2008, 02:04 AM

Dude, 5440 for Diamond and above so 1000 people actively in the network. I'm using a very conservative TEN F#$*)&#$G PERCENT profit on tools and they STILL make more money from tools than from the business.

But it's not conservative at all. You've seen the rebate schedule, a Diamond is making at most an average of maybe 5% on CD volume, less on seminar tickets.

Your own numbers bury you here dude.

Uh, nope. This was qualifed Diamonds *and above*. Founders EDC and above for example have an average Amway income of around $1.4million

Ah yes, but there is way more profit to the distributors in the tool money because the production costs are lower and they don't have to pay the corp.

The Diamonds don't produce the tools, so production costs are irrelevant, what's irrelevant is how much they have to pay the production companies. Basic logistics and costs you've chosen to ignore.

Add in the fact that only a small fraction of the revenue goes to anyone below a platinum and on a per-dollar basis those cut in will be making way way more profit per dollar on tools. WAY WAY more profit per dollar (and keep in mind we are working in DOLLARS not in PV here!! So it's actually even better than it looks).

Except I've already given you how much profit can be made "per tool" by a Diamond, and you're simply ignoring it.

Again, your own numbers bury you. If I couldn't figure out a way to make 10% selling books, tapes, cd's and function tickets I would be an idiot and that right there is enough with only 1000 people plugged in to make more off tools.

Well, I won't argue with the claim you're an idiot.

I can run this math a bunch of different way but I'm being EXTREMELY conservative. Again more likely I would think 150k from Amway income and something like 500k+ from tools.

You can come up with any number you like if you keep choosing to ignore hard data.

NewtonTrino

3rd May 2008, 09:37 AM

Sorry Icerat but your own numbers simply bury you. Your tool breakdown chart for rebates simply doesn't cover all of the profit. The expenses involved in duplicating cd's is absolutely minimal (and the functions where they record everything are themselves profit centers). Bottom line, you are being lied to about where the tools money goes and about how much of it goes to Diamonds and up. I know that's a bitter pill to swallow but do you have any other way of veryifying the numbers?

Also keep in mind that the $150 a month we are using PER COUPLE is probably low, even by your numbers. I picked a purposefully low number of distributors and a low monthly number. Withn 5000+ distributors in the network each buying $200 a month even the 5% number you want to use for profit gives you $12,000,000 in revenue and 5% of that is $600,000 in profit!!!! This is all taken from numbers you agree on.

In reality if you had 5000 distributors that were plugged in and you made more like the 30% that they should be making that's $4,000,000 in profit for a Diamond on tools. Now this might be on the high side for a regular diamond but there are many big pins that have a 90/10 split on tools vs Amway income.

Basically you have to use incredibly conservative numbers to get Amway income to be a significant part of a Diamonds compensation (note that even at Emerald the tools money is going to be significant but the way they split up the profit the real money is at Diamond (as the tool money pyramid is inverted), coincidently that's one of the most common expressions in the business, everyone always talk about how the real money is at Diamond). Oh, and $150k a year split between a couple IS NOT REAL MONEY. Real money is that $150k a year plus another $500k in tools profit.

PWNED DUDE. There is just no way you can spin this, I'm slaying you with your own numbers. Are you seriously so dense that you think I'm wrong? Even my Dad knows I'm right, he just doesn't give a **** (in my experience people in "the business" are generally not very ethical).

BTW with an EDC making $1.4M how big do you think there network is? Start multiplying these numbers with even bigger networks and the numbers go up up up.

Interestingly enough

icerat

3rd May 2008, 12:10 PM

Sorry Icerat but your own numbers simply bury you. Your tool breakdown chart for rebates simply doesn't cover all of the profit.

Of course not, and the Amway rebate schedule doesn't cover all the profit in their business either. It apparently comes as a surprise to you that Amway not only has expenses, but also makes a profit for the owners. Well, most of the time, reportedly this year in North America all profit the is being redirected into the marketing campaigns.

The BSM companies also make a profit, as you would expect. You're talking about the Diamonds as if they *are* the BSM companies. They're not. N21 for example supports over a thousand Diamonds. To the best of my knowedge it's owned by just one Diamond couple. Do they make money from it? Probably, though not everywhere. They have hundreds of staff and dozens of offices to support. The do R&D on new products. They handle legal and other issues, like getting Amway to approve material. I'm aware of a number of countries where N21 *loses* money. Like any business there willing to make a loss in the hopes it will become profitable later.

Why do you think a company producing educational materials for Amway IBOs should somehow operate different to a company producing educational materials for any other market?

The expenses involved in duplicating cd's is absolutely minimal (and the functions where they record everything are themselves profit centers). Bottom line, you are being lied to about where the tools money goes and about how much of it goes to Diamonds and up. I know that's a bitter pill to swallow but do you have any other way of veryifying the numbers?

I have independent verification. The problem isn't I'm being lied to, the problem is you are clueless about the kind of operations I'm talking about. Yes, it doesn't cost much to duplicate a CD. But you have staff who have to select and edit the material before it can be sent for duplication. You have staff who have to deal with Amway to get approval for the kind of material that needs approval. You have packaging to design and produce. You have accountants to do what accountants do. You have lawyers to do what lawyers do. You have staff to package and post out the materials. And of course you have returns and unsold stock. Then of course, like any other business you need money if you want to invest in new products or move into new markets.

It always astounds me how folk like you believe that these companies have some how managed to create some amazing business that has zero expenses except actual manufacture of the product. There's no expenses in production, just duplication. No expenses in distribution, just duplication. No expenses in R&D, just duplication. No offices, no staff, no accountants, no lawyers, no taxes, nothing.

Somehow, amazingly a magic master CD appears miraculously at a duplication company, they duplicate them and they miraculously, and without further expense, turn up in the post just for those who wanted them.

A miracle business! :rolleyes:

Also keep in mind that the $150 a month we are using PER COUPLE is probably low, even by your numbers. I picked a purposefully low number of distributors and a low monthly number. Withn 5000+ distributors in the network each buying $200 a month even the 5% number you want to use for profit gives you $12,000,000 in revenue and 5% of that is $600,000 in profit!!!! This is all taken from numbers you agree on.

Sure, if there's 5000 distributors in the network each buying $200 a month. In which case, the statistics indicate you've got a network of at least 50000 IBOs doing well over US$60,000,000 in Amway revenue a year. You're waaaayyyy bigger than a diamond, making A LOT more than $600,000 from Amway

In reality if you had 5000 distributors that were plugged in and you made more like the 30% that they should be making that's $4,000,000 in profit for a Diamond on tools.

Yup, miracle business. Amazing. Should be studied in every business school :cool:

Now this might be on the high side for a regular diamond but there are many big pins that have a 90/10 split on tools vs Amway income.

Really .... "many"? Out of 5000 Diamonds and above, how many would it have to be to be considered "many"?

Basically you have to use incredibly conservative numbers to get Amway income to be a significant part of a Diamonds compensation (note that even at Emerald the tools money is going to be significant but the way they split up the profit the real money is at Diamond (as the tool money pyramid is inverted), coincidently that's one of the most common expressions in the business, everyone always talk about how the real money is at Diamond). Oh, and $150k a year split between a couple IS NOT REAL MONEY. Real money is that $150k a year plus another $500k in tools profit.

Anyone making 500k in BSM income is likely waayyy bigger than Diamond, and thus wayyyy bigger than $150K/yr in Amway income.

PWNED DUDE. There is just no way you can spin this, I'm slaying you with your own numbers. Are you seriously so dense that you think I'm wrong? Even my Dad knows I'm right, he just doesn't give a **** (in my experience people in "the business" are generally not very ethical).

For all I know it might be true in the small corner of the world you dealt with when you dealt with it. I can't say. I can categorically state you're wrong for the (larger) part of the Amway world I'm dealing with.

BTW with an EDC making $1.4M how big do you think there network is? Start multiplying these numbers with even bigger networks and the numbers go up up up.

Of course. A bigger business makes more money. Is this a surprise to you?

NewtonTrino

3rd May 2008, 01:45 PM

Dude you are living in dreamland.

NewtonTrino

3rd May 2008, 06:19 PM

icerat

4th May 2008, 06:09 AM

Last post was at lunch from my iPhone, so let me be a little more clear.

Tools are different from regular product. They are produced by the AMOs (N21 in your case) and sold into the pyramid using a different compensation scheme. This scheme varies but in all cases there is more profit per $ going into the pyramid from these tools than there is from Amway product.

Calling it "the pyramid" is sign enough that you can't be trusted to discuss this rationally. You know it's not a pyramid.

I've asked you what knowledge you have of specific different BSM companies, and you've refused to answer the question. You have no kowledge or experience with them - and here you making the explicit claim "in all cases".

Put up or shut up

What's more it's a provable lie. I gave you the N21 rebate schedule. A maximum of $2.20 of a $7.00 CD is paid out in rebates. That means a total of up to 31.4%.

Amway pays out 35%.

What's more, for any given organisation, the $ amount of revenues from Amway is far larger than the $ amount revenues from BSM.

Yet here you are making an "all cases" claim. You have no idea what these other organization are doing. You just outright lied.

As the Diamond and above control the creation and distribution of these products they get the lions share of the profit. Not all of them are created equal as icerat has pointed out, for example the Dornans seem to own the N21 production so there cut will be a little larger.

Do you even understand that N21 is not part of Amway or the Amway organization, or even of the Dornan's Amway organization? It's a separate, for-profit company, setup to supply training and educational materials to Amway IBOs. Many of whom are not in the Dornan's Amway organization.

However, they still need the cooperation of the diamonds and others in their organization so they still have to give them a reasonable cut. This will depend on the size of their business.

Shock horror. Let's rewrite what that actually means - A company needs "the cooperation" of it's customers. They need to offer the customers reasonable discounts, depending on the volumes they purchase.

Just crazy the way business works. :rolleyes:

They will get a cut from everyone that buys a seminar ticket (as well the downline emeralds and platinums also get a piece for each person in their sub-orgranization). Now although the total dollar amount of product moving through the network from Amway is greater, the profit per dollar is much much higher on tools and functions, which is why they are pushed so much. The chart relating volume discount that Icerat posted is the "cover" story.

Ahhh yes, the usual response to the critic who has been shown to be wrong "they're lying". Uhuh.

You have no idea what is true or not. I've asked many times what actually experience you have had with the major BSM companies and you refused to answer.

You simply don't know, and you are on this forum spreading the same BS Myths that are spread on the internet by others.

Just admit you don't know

The bottom line is that using Icerats own numbers for how much a plugged in distributor will spend on "tools" (and btw I think his numbers are on the low side) and comparing it to the amount of income an average Diamond will have from Amyway, it's obivous that there is more money in tools than product.

Yup, absolutely. If you compare the amount of $$$$ spent on tools in an organiza tion MUCH bigger than a Diamond and there could indeed be more tool income than a Diamond with a MUCH smaller Amway business would be getting from Amway.

You're twisting things so much you're going to be a human knot soon. You are being outright dishonest, again.

Obviously this is going to vary for different Diamonds depending on how much leverage they have, but for the average Diamond it turns them from a low 6-figure income into a lot lot more.

Average Diamond in N21 United States makes less than $25,000/yr from N21.

Keep in mind that none of the above is under any dispute whatsoever when it comes to most AMO systems. It's just that Icerat claims his N21 group is "special" and not as bad.

I never made any such claim. What I pointed out was that one LOS and it's affiliates, one of many, appears to be the source of virtually all internet complaints about Amway and all of the BSM related lawsuits. That makes that group different in some way, not any of the other groups.

A rational mind might think there was a pattern worth considering.

I personally think they are just smarter about managing their image, even for their own distributors.

Also, your ridiculous "expenses" that N21 has producing all of this material are absolutely minimal on a per-unit basis. I'm in the freakin software business and the overhead for doing this is really really small.

ROFLMAO!!!! I've been in the software business. I've been in other businesses as well. And I know being in the software business has extremely little relevance to knowing the overhead for operating a major multinational education and events company.

Keep in mind that all of the other AMO's (for example Dexters) would have the same expenses and they manage to turn a rather large profit for all of the Diamonds in their system.

Bull. You have no idea how different groups operate. That's why you refuse to answer questions regarding your experience with them. I believe for example that in the Yager group it was (may still be) common for Platinums to be "volunteer workers" and Yager events. N21 on the other hand has numerous full-time paid staff running these events. The Platinums look after their Amway businesses.

Anyone with business experience will know that staffing is a major expense. Yet you would have us believe an organization paying dozens of staff to run an event has the same expenses as one using volunteers.

Basically Icerat, you are brainwashed and clueless about where the money is going. Seriously, do some of the math based on the amount of tools these guys sell and then compare it to the expenses you claim are so high. The math simply doesn't add up.

Your math doesn't add up. And your dodging, refusal to accept hard data, and constant laughable defence that "I'm brainwashed" is getting pretty damn tiresome.

Oh, and btw, comparing this to "other" business and what they charge for education is silly. The vast majority of information here is motivational in nature, not things like selling techniques (although some of that exists).

NewtonTrino, you are a JOKE. You have ZERO experience with most of these companies ZERO. You have no idea what materials they produce and sell. NONE. Yet you sit at your keyboard, knowing you know nothing about them, and keep making claims about them.

Seriously do people need to be getting new cd's, books etc EVERY SINGLE MONTH? Do they need to be attending larger functions on multiple occasions per year? These CD's, books and functions are meant to keep people momentum up and keep them brainwashed in the system.

Seriously, do those law students need to going to lectures like nearly EVERY SINGLE DAY?:p

You have no idea what's in the material or what it's for - you can't know since you don't know what books are recommended, and you've never attended a seminar or listened to a CD from virtually all of these companies.

Yet you claim omniscience.

Anyway, if you want to keep arguing the math of it we can keep going back and forth. Bottom line, if you are getting $200 a month for tools from "active" distributors and you are getting 100PV from them (and everyone "active" in their network) then you are going to be making a freakin bundle on tools.

Perhaps. Except that example doesn't even remotely reflect reality, either in the amount you "get" from BSM nor the amount you "get" in PV.

You've got your firm apaprently immutable beliefs about this, and any contrary information you're simply dismissing as "brainwashing" and "lies".

There really is little point in continuing the discussion when you simply refuse to accept anything that challenges your beliefs.

NewtonTrino

4th May 2008, 11:23 AM

Calling it "the pyramid" is sign enough that you can't be trusted to discuss this rationally. You know it's not a pyramid.

It's not a pyramid? hahahaha. No really hahahaha ha.

I've asked you what knowledge you have of specific different BSM companies, and you've refused to answer the question. You have no kowledge or experience with them - and here you making the explicit claim "in all cases".

Put up or shut up

What's more it's a provable lie. I gave you the N21 rebate schedule. A maximum of $2.20 of a $7.00 CD is paid out in rebates. That means a total of up to 31.4%.

Well I'm just using your own numbers. From my calculations BASED ON YOUR NUMBERS it still looks like a "normal" Diamond will be getting a significant portion of their income from tools. Everyone reading this, keep in mind that Icerat is trying to bend the numbers in his favor but even with my using conservative numbers it's not looking good.

Amway pays out 35%.

What's more, for any given organisation, the $ amount of revenues from Amway is far larger than the $ amount revenues from BSM.

Yet here you are making an "all cases" claim. You have no idea what these other organization are doing. You just outright lied.

Do you even understand that N21 is not part of Amway or the Amway organization, or even of the Dornan's Amway organization? It's a separate, for-profit company, setup to supply training and educational materials to Amway IBOs. Many of whom are not in the Dornan's Amway organization.

It's called being affiliated. How many NON AMWAY companies use his tools? Basically the way this works is that when you are a high enough pin and can "swing it" you can either create your own AMO (start holding your own functions, making your own tapes etc) or you can affiliate with someone else doing this. You do NOT have to be in their Amway line of sponsorship to do this. This comes down to leverage for a particular diamond (or any pin with a large group). Some of the lawsuits flying around in the past 10 years had to do with this as some people thought they weren't getting a big enough cut for their group. Icerat, you are incredibly naive if you think that a Diamond bringing his group into affiliation with N21 would only get the money in the "public" discount schedule. There are bonuses in Amway that go to big pins which are above an beyond the normal bonus payouts based on the size of their business. All I'm saying is that I'm sure the same thing has to exist in the tools business above and beyond the pricebreak above. Keep in mind that this could vary depending on what individuals have negotiated. I'll sure as hell tell you one thing, no astute businessperson would just take the first number presented in a contract so it probably varies from group to group and diamond to diamond depend on size, volume etc. But there is competition in this area as Diamond can CHANGE their affiliation (e.g. move from Dexter or WWDB or BWW to N21 or back) depending on who is going to help them make the most money.

Shock horror. Let's rewrite what that actually means - A company needs "the cooperation" of it's customers. They need to offer the customers reasonable discounts, depending on the volumes they purchase.

Just crazy the way business works. :rolleyes:

Dude, I'm a capitalist. I have no problem with people selling product. I'm not even sure this scam should necessarily be illegal. It is immoral though. It's probably not the best for our society to be building business based on PT Barnums theories though.

Ahhh yes, the usual response to the critic who has been shown to be wrong "they're lying". Uhuh.

You have no idea what is true or not. I've asked many times what actually experience you have had with the major BSM companies and you refused to answer.

You simply don't know, and you are on this forum spreading the same BS Myths that are spread on the internet by others.

Just admit you don't know

Dude, it's up to you to show your AMO is different. Frankly you aren't high enough in the hierarchy to have any real information to show us. Come back when you have some financial data from real business. I have personally SEEN the amount of cash generated from some of these different businesses and it's HUGE. Keep in mind I'm not arguing from heresay, I have direct experience as someone supplying software to big pins.

Yup, absolutely. If you compare the amount of $$$$ spent on tools in an organiza tion MUCH bigger than a Diamond and there could indeed be more tool income than a Diamond with a MUCH smaller Amway business would be getting from Amway.

You're twisting things so much you're going to be a human knot soon. You are being outright dishonest, again.

Average Diamond in N21 United States makes less than $25,000/yr from N21.

Uh huh. Dude, there is simply way more money per dollar for a Diamond in tools than there is in Amway product. Again, maybe we should crunch some numbers using your price break schedule above but I bet it's hard to get it as low as $25k. You are simply brainwashed here, another victim of the scam.

I never made any such claim. What I pointed out was that one LOS and it's affiliates, one of many, appears to be the source of virtually all internet complaints about Amway and all of the BSM related lawsuits. That makes that group different in some way, not any of the other groups.

A rational mind might think there was a pattern worth considering.

I've seen many complaints about N21. Anyway, it's up to you to show that N21 is different from any of the others. BWW, WWDB and Dexter's AMO are all total scams, do you deny this? Can you point out any others besides N21 that you think are not scams? Bottom line, you are being scammed like everyone else and you really have no idea where all those dollars are going.

ROFLMAO!!!! I've been in the software business. I've been in other businesses as well. And I know being in the software business has extremely little relevance to knowing the overhead for operating a major multinational education and events company.

Not really. For example we do a lot of voice work including hiring SAG actors, editing the voice, localization to different countries etc. My last product shipped with Chinese, Korean, English, French, Italian, German, Russian and a few others. The amount of edited, translated and recorded VO was quite large and it's simple not that expensive to do this stuff. Events themselves are a little expensive on a per $ basis but they do charge a lot more for an event than a CD.

Bull. You have no idea how different groups operate. That's why you refuse to answer questions regarding your experience with them. I believe for example that in the Yager group it was (may still be) common for Platinums to be "volunteer workers" and Yager events. N21 on the other hand has numerous full-time paid staff running these events. The Platinums look after their Amway businesses.

Anyone with business experience will know that staffing is a major expense. Yet you would have us believe an organization paying dozens of staff to run an event has the same expenses as one using volunteers.

Yager does tend to use Platinums and up to run the events. However, you still need security, janitorial etc etc at those events. Anyway, they charge enough to cover this stuff and still have plenty left over. Compare the price to an average rock concert (these make millions !!).

NewtonTrino, you are a JOKE. You have ZERO experience with most of these companies ZERO. You have no idea what materials they produce and sell. NONE. Yet you sit at your keyboard, knowing you know nothing about them, and keep making claims about them.

Then show me where EVERY CENT goes from the tools business in N21. I want to see your own math based on an "average" 150k a year Diamond using your own tools breakdown charts and I want function money included. Show us how much you would expect this average diamond to make from tools.

You simply aren't high enough up the chain to have the knowledge necessary for this discussion. On top of that if you were you could easily LIE (which is what the tool kingpins did for years and some still do).

icerat

4th May 2008, 12:47 PM

Well I'm just using your own numbers. From my calculations BASED ON YOUR NUMBERS it still looks like a "normal" Diamond will be getting a significant portion of their income from tools. Everyone reading this, keep in mind that Icerat is trying to bend the numbers in his favor but even with my using conservative numbers it's not looking good.

I'm "bending the numbers"? You're taking average incomes from one "level" and comparing them with estimates of average incomes from other folk at other "levels". That's outright dishonest

It's called being affiliated. How many NON AMWAY companies use his tools?

Strictly speaking ALL of them are not Amway. Amway doesn't buy N21 BSM, Amway affiliated business owners do.

Some of the lawsuits flying around in the past 10 years had to do with this as some people thought they weren't getting a big enough cut for their group.

ALL of those lawsuits were from one group - the one you have had experience with. But you refuse to even consider that perhaps others work differently.

Icerat, you are incredibly naive if you think that a Diamond bringing his group into affiliation with N21 would only get the money in the "public" discount schedule.

ROFL! I never said anything like that. Business is business and deals will be done. That discount schedule is not "public" btw, except for the fact I just made it public :-). I'm talking about what's typical, and you insist on taking particular groups or individuals and claiming they apply to all.

Dude, it's up to you to show your AMO is different. Frankly you aren't high enough in the hierarchy to have any real information to show us.

You have no idea where in the "hierarchy" I am. What we do know is that YOU have no knowledge at all outside one group and pretending you do.

Come back when you have some financial data from real business.

Seen 'em, got 'em.

I have direct experience as someone supplying software to big pins.

How many of the 5000 or so Diamonds did you supply software to?

Again, maybe we should crunch some numbers using your price break schedule above but I bet it's hard to get it as low as $25k.

Well, we've already seen how you like to count incomparable things and pretend they are the same. So go ahead and crunch.

You are simply brainwashed here, another victim of the scam.

blah blah blah

I've seen many complaints about N21.

yup, sure you have.

Anyway, it's up to you to show that N21 is different from any of the others.

Why? I never claimed N21 was different from all the others. You're the one claiming all the others are the same as Yager and his offshoots (namely BWW/WWDB)

BWW, WWDB and Dexter's AMO are all total scams, do you deny this? Can you point out any others besides N21 that you think are not scams?

I don't have enough experience with them to say. Unlike yourself I make no claims about things I know nothing about.

I do however have good friends with WWDB and no, I don't think it's a scam. They provide some great products and services. Whether they were a scam (how many years ago?) when you had experiences with them, I've no idea.

Bottom line, you are being scammed like everyone else and you really have no idea where all those dollars are going.

Bottom line - I buy products from N21 that I think are value for money and are cheaper than buying the same or similar products from other sources.

Yup, definitely a scam :covereyes:

Not really. For example we do a lot of voice work including hiring SAG actors, editing the voice, localization to different countries etc. My last product shipped with Chinese, Korean, English, French, Italian, German, Russian and a few others. The amount of edited, translated and recorded VO was quite large and it's simple not that expensive to do this stuff. Events themselves are a little expensive on a per $ basis but they do charge a lot more for an event than a CD.

So if you have experience in these areas, why do pretend that BSM companies have no expenses?

Yager does tend to use Platinums and up to run the events.

Do you even know Dexter Yager doesn't even run Internet Services any more?

However, you still need security, janitorial etc etc at those events. Anyway, they charge enough to cover this stuff and still have plenty left over. Compare the price to an average rock concert (these make millions !!).

Why not compare to companies that offer similar services? Like other companies that offer training and motivation to network marketers. In fact, I did just that last year - Network 21 vs the competition: a price comparison (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/3813/90/lang,en/)

Then show me where EVERY CENT goes from the tools business in N21.

Show me where EVERY CENT goes in the Amway business.

In the end it doesn't matter. What matters is whether they provide products and services I think are value for money. If they didn't, I wouldn't buy from them.

Pretty simple really.

NewtonTrino

4th May 2008, 08:49 PM

In the end it doesn't matter. What matters is whether they provide products and services I think are value for money. If they didn't, I wouldn't buy from them.

Ambots all sound the same. This is because they are brainwashed to think the above is true. This has a lot of similarities to arguments you will hear from religious believers (especially the nutcase types that give money to people like Benny Hinn).

Everyone reading this thread in posterity, please please remember that this guy isn't in on the scam. In fact he won't tell us how large his business is other than he has "residual income" from it. He also won't give us an accounting of how much money he has spent on these materials.

Anyway, there are plenty of resources on the net for smart people that was to check out this "opportunity". Keep in mind that the many ex-amway distributors that were larger pins have confirmed that the tools scam exists. I just want to add my voice to this, that I have personally seen the numbers of several of these businesses, while dealing with them as a customer of my software.

BTW One more thing. Icerat thinks WWDB isn't a scam either. That's pretty much indefensible at this point. Just a point to show how brainwashed he is.

icerat

5th May 2008, 05:13 AM

Nothing better than ad hominems to dispute actual hard data huh? Heck, it's apparent you didn't even know Dexter Yager doesn't run Internet Services any more and hasn't for some years.

I'll try some questions one more time to see if you have the guts to answer.

When did you last have experience with WWDB?

How extensive was that experience?

Almo

5th May 2008, 09:19 AM

Dude, you're being ridiculous. I don't even live in the US were I guess most of you folk are, so I'm not trying to recruit anyone here.

And you didn't read what I said: "potential joiners (not necessarily of his org)."

icerat

5th May 2008, 10:56 AM

Still not trying to recruit anyone. Just trying to correct some misinformation, overgeneralizations, and misconceptions.

NewtonTrino

5th May 2008, 11:07 AM

And I am just trying to let people know that you guys are a bunch of lying scammers so you can't ruin any more lives. Get back to us when you've made some money in this business and you can prove it isn't from tools.

Thinking in CT

5th May 2008, 01:13 PM

I was called at work today by a person who noted my comment regarding the proposed changes in the business opportunity rule posted on the FTC web-site. The guy told me that there were exactly three critical comments posted on the FTC site, mine, his and one other.

At first the guy seemed rational. He stated that he had a Amway/Quixar "business" for 15 years but none the less supported some level of disclosure and regulation by the FTC. His point was that, while "the Company" was good it was those evil "up line" tool sellers who messed the system up! I asked him, had he, in the last 15 years ever carried a profit from his IRS schedule C over onto his 1040, and he said no. (Of course it was his fault he never made money, he has had some health problems, etc.)

I explained to him that the MLM model is inherently flawed; that NO real salesman ever tries to recruit other salesmen in his territory, in-home sales of consumer products is a tiny and shrinking market, and that the claims that the "products" are superior are bunk. He continued to speak as if Quixar was a good company and he was a "business" owner. I explained to him that he was a consumer, not a "business owner" and that his "up-line" guy most likely never made any money either. He told me about his up-line's expensive cars and home, that he claims to have seen (maybe he has just been told about them or seen pictures) I asked him if he had ever seen the Schedule C from his "up line's" 1040, he said that "they won't show you that". 'Nuf said.. I told the guy I was busy and got off the phone. One born every minute.

icerat

5th May 2008, 06:10 PM

The guy told me that there were exactly three critical comments posted on the FTC site, mine, his and one other.

Bet it was S.J. aka "Tex". Anyway, that's not correct. There were more than 3 comments critical of MLM submitted to the FTC. Not many though, and an awful lot more in support.

At first the guy seemed rational.

S.J. aka "Tex" seems rational until you get to know him.

I explained to him that the MLM model is inherently flawed; that NO real salesman ever tries to recruit other salesmen in his territory

Wow - so shop owners NEVER recruit other salespeople into their stores? I must have imagined it ....

Seriously, do you have a clue how MLM works? Sales folk you recruit are more analoguous to employing additional sales staff than they are to competition. I've explained this numerous times on this thread. You make more sales buy having further sales people - therefore you make more money. It's really not that tough to understand, please try harder.

in-home sales of consumer products is a tiny and shrinking market

Well, of course you'd actually check the data before you said that wouldn't you? So it must be true!

US direct sales (source (http://dsa.org/pubs/numbers/#GROWTHRATE))-

http://dsa.org/images/2006sales.jpg

Oops. Maybe you meant globally? (source (http://www.wfdsa.org/statistics/index.cfm?fa=display_stats&number=2))

http://www.wfdsa.org/images/statistics/globalretailsales06.gif

Hmmm. Guess you must have just meant in your house? :confused:

and that the claims that the "products" are superior are bunk.

Yup, sure are -

Artistry - a Top 5 best selling Prestige Brand (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/1112/73/lang,en/)
eSpring receives Product of the Year Award (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/3316/73/lang,en/)
eSpring - the only home water system certified to remove more than 140 contaminants (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2111/73/lang,en/)
eSpring - A Reader's Digest "most trusted brand" (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/1247/73/lang,en/)
Nutrilite (Nutriway) - A Readers Digest Most Trusted Brand (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2047/73/lang,en/)
eSpring and Nutrilite win Reader's Digest Consumer Awards for the third year running (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/3641/73/lang,en/)
Nutrilite - First dietary supplements to be certified by NSF International (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2110/73/lang,en/)
Nutrilite/Nutriway - the world's leading brand of vitamins, minerals and dietary supplements (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2112/73/lang,en/)
Nutrilite/Nutriway - used and endorsed by the world's fastest hurdler, Liu Xiang (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2968/73/lang,en/)
Nutrilite/Nutriway - used and endorsed by the world's fastest man, Asafa Powell (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2113/73/lang,en/)
Nutrilite/Nutriway tops survey in customer satisfaction (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/944/73/lang,en/)
Amway's SA8 with BioQuest tops Consumer Reports comparison (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2216/73/lang,en/)

Sure are lousy products :rolleyes:

JonnyFive

6th May 2008, 07:15 AM

Seriously, do you have a clue how MLM works? Sales folk you recruit are more analoguous to employing additional sales staff than they are to competition. I've explained this numerous times on this thread. You make more sales buy having further sales people - therefore you make more money. It's really not that tough to understand, please try harder.

Why do you keep comparing IBOs to sales staff, anyway? Aren't IBOs at least somewhat independent of the upline? Aren't they able to recruit downline themselves? Aren't sales staff controlled by their employers to a far greater degree than Amway IBOs?

What measures are upline able to take if downline is starting to saturate a sales territory? Can they move downline to a different territory? Prevent them from hiring their own downline? Fire them?

See, all of those things are options for sales staff, even commissioned sales staff.

You've explained it, but that doesn't make it true.

US direct sales (source (http://dsa.org/pubs/numbers/#GROWTHRATE))-

[snipped images]
Hmmm. Guess you must have just meant in your house? :confused:

That's pretty good, but it's a tiny fraction of the roughly 3.88 trillion dollars (that excludes food services, but includes automotive, you can get the full numbers in the PDF I link to below) in retail sales recorded in 2006. In the United States.

http://www.census.gov/svsd/retlann/pdf/sales.pdf

Which means that the direct sales recorded by the DSA (which is all direct selling, although face-to-face is a pretty big chunk of it) were something approaching 0.8% the dollar amount of retail sales.

Yup, sure are -

Okay.

Artistry - a Top 5 best selling Prestige Brand (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/1112/73/lang,en/)
eSpring receives Product of the Year Award (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/3316/73/lang,en/)

Claims of sales awards, or winning an award from a particular organization, don't really bolster claims of "superiority" in an objective way. What about objective tests? Cost considerations when compared to performance? Studies of actual real-world usefulness versus paper features?

Now, the NSF stuff was kind of interesting. NSF certification, according to the listings on their web sites, is about verifying the claims of the manufacturer. It doesn't mean the product is awesome, or the best, or a great deal - it simply means the claims about it are true.

Nutrilite - First dietary supplements to be certified by NSF International (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2110/73/lang,en/)

Oddly enough, NSF certifies a couple hundred different nutritional supplements (and water filters, and other products). This statement is a complete non-issue, basically saying "Amway vitamins won't kill you or make you sick!" It has absolutely nothing to do with them being superior, only showing that Amway is non-deceptive.

Moreover, a search of the NSF's current web site does not show Nutrilite products as certified. That article was written almost two years ago - any idea what happened? Did the brand name change by any chance, or did they lose certification for some other reason?

Nutrilite/Nutriway - the world's leading brand of vitamins, minerals and dietary supplements (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2112/73/lang,en/)

Nutrilite/Nutriway - used and endorsed by the world's fastest hurdler, Liu Xiang (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2968/73/lang,en/)

Nutrilite/Nutriway - used and endorsed by the world's fastest man, Asafa Powell (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2113/73/lang,en/) [/quote]

These are appeals to popularity. They don't make Amway products better, simply show that some people believe they are better.

Nutritionally, there isn't much difference when it comes to vitamin supplements. The industry is a festering stink-hole of BS claims and nonsense, so maybe that's not the best thing to focus on.

Nutrilite/Nutriway tops survey in customer satisfaction (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/944/73/lang,en/)

Again, this doesn't really support any kind of "my products are objectively a better deal" stuff. All it says is that, according to the survey on that web site, the products satisfied the customers. That does nothing to show that the price/performance index of the product was better.

Amway's SA8 with BioQuest tops Consumer Reports comparison (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2216/73/lang,en/)

This completely twists the meaning of the CR report. The basic thrust of the CR report was "yes, the Amway stuff worked very well, but several brands offered very similar performance at less than half the cost." It's also worth noting that CR did not award the Amway product a "best buy," even though it was highly rated. Keep in mind that CR considers price when awarding recommendations, even if the product did well on the tests. Someone not accustomed to reading CR reports might get the impression they thought Amway's product was the best deal - they clearly did not.

The article you linked tries to weasel out of this by wondering how the CR article calculated the cost of usage. That's pretty damn weak. They also go on about how one of the "best buys" is only from members-only Costco, so they should compare the members-only price of Amway.

Okay, but the listed cost for that detergent is only $0.12 per load, which is a fifth of the listed cost of the Amway brand. Even at the members' only price - even at the optimistically calculated members'-only price on the pro-Amway web site, it's still two and a half times as expensive.

Plus, if you want to compare Amway's "direct" price, why wouldn't you compare it to the distributor price of Tide or whatever? I'm guessing that the cost would be dramatically less with the retail markup taken down a peg.

Oh yes, and the next top choices can be purchased at any retail store and cost half what the Amway brand did. Or, if you want, they cost roughly the same as the special members-only price. Except you don't have to pay shipping, and you don't have to sign up for Amway to buy Tide HE.

Sure are lousy products :rolleyes:

No one said they were lousy. All that was said was that they weren't "superior" to comparable retail products. I agree - they don't seem to be bad products, just overpriced products.

icerat

6th May 2008, 10:17 AM

Why do you keep comparing IBOs to sales staff, anyway? Aren't IBOs at least somewhat independent of the upline? Aren't they able to recruit downline themselves? Aren't sales staff controlled by their employers to a far greater degree than Amway IBOs?

Yes, which is anadvantange. The analogy with sales staff however is directly relevant to the claims about downline being "competition".

What measures are upline able to take if downline is starting to saturate a sales territory? Can they move downline to a different territory? Prevent them from hiring their own downline? Fire them?

Why would they need to? First of all, if the downline can "hire their own" then by definition it's not saturated (unless it's a customer converting to an IBO). Secondly, if it's saturated that downline is free to move or fire themselves (and get a full refund). Why would the upline need to take any action? It's effectively self monitoring.

That's pretty good, but it's a tiny fraction of the roughly 3.88 trillion dollars (that excludes food services, but includes automotive, you can get the full numbers in the PDF I link to below) in retail sales recorded in 2006. In the United States.

Yup, but the claim was it's shrinking. Clearly it is not.

Claims of sales awards, or winning an award from a particular organization, don't really bolster claims of "superiority" in an objective way. What about objective tests? Cost considerations when compared to performance? Studies of actual real-world usefulness versus paper features?[/QUOTE]

The NSF certifications clearly apply to "superiority" - if the eSpring does something others don't in terms of water purification, it's clearly "superior", as do the Consumer Reports testing of SA8 and to a lesser extent the EuroMonitor assessment of Artistry as being in the "prestige" category.

Consumer Satisfaction surveys are an objective view of what consumers think of the products, which from a business perspective is actually more important than the actual benefits of the product. It's reasonable to assume however that consumers are generally more satisfied but products they perceive offer better value.

Moreover, a search of the NSF's current web site does not show Nutrilite products as certified. That article was written almost two years ago - any idea what happened? Did the brand name change by any chance, or did they lose certification for some other reason?

Nutrilite decided it wasn't worth the money recertifying every year. Personally I think they should have, but I don't run the company.

Nutritionally, there isn't much difference when it comes to vitamin supplements. The industry is a festering stink-hole of BS claims and nonsense, so maybe that's not the best thing to focus on.

In general I agree with you (this is an area of which I have a deal of expertise), however Nutrilite is significantly different in their approach to virtually all other supplement manufacturers, which is one reason I support them. Once I started to do the research I was quite astounded at what they're doing, and clinical support to back it up.

Again, this doesn't really support any kind of "my products are objectively a better deal" stuff.

It's impossible to make that claim about any product, unless your comparing exactly the same product from different sources. Value, or "better deal" is inherently a subjective thing.

This completely twists the meaning of the CR report. The basic thrust of the CR report was "yes, the Amway stuff worked very well, but several brands offered very similar performance at less than half the cost."

13% better performance is similar? They also got a number of factors wrong, including the price, and claiming it was only available via online purchase.

Someone not accustomed to reading CR reports might get the impression they thought Amway's product was the best deal - they clearly did not.

Oh, so now it's back to subjective measures? :) It's was an objective measure of cleaning ability. The SA8 was clearly superior. It also has other benefits not judged by CR. In the end though, value is subjective.

Plus, if you want to compare Amway's "direct" price, why wouldn't you compare it to the distributor price of Tide or whatever? I'm guessing that the cost would be dramatically less with the retail markup taken down a peg.

Amway's "direct" price is available to anyone, Tide's distributor price is not. You also don't necessarily have to pay shipping. I don't charge shipping to any of my customers

No one said they were lousy. All that was said was that they weren't "superior" to comparable retail products. I agree - they don't seem to be bad products, just overpriced products.

Do a price comparison of Artistry (more than a third of Amway's business), to the other brands that have been independently judged to be in the same category. You will find that Artistry is clearly cheaper.

Nutrilite, more than half Amway's business, is a different story altogether and not something I want to get into here. They're not "normal" vitamin supplements.

Thinking in CT

6th May 2008, 10:31 AM

Mr. Icerat:

The "source" of all your data and charts is:"The World Federation of Direct Selling Associations". A MLM industry PR group. I.e BS!!

And by the way, your stupid analogy that recruiting more "down line" is the same as a store hiring more sales clerks, because more sales people = more sales.....now just THINK about that for a minute....that must be why my local Walmart just hired 10,000 more clerks so they will generate more sales!!... wait, hey, they didn't just hire 10,000 more clerks...stupid Walmart!

(n.b. this is the last response to icerat from me...honest...I'm through!)

JonnyFive

6th May 2008, 12:43 PM

Yes, which is an advantange. The analogy with sales staff however is directly relevant to the claims about downline being "competition".

Maybe a better analogy would be commissioned field sales, but it's still structurally different.

Why would they need to? First of all, if the downline can "hire their own" then by definition it's not saturated (unless it's a customer converting to an IBO).

Eh? What does the ability to recruit distributors have to do with actual market saturation? Is this coming back to the whole "every distributor is a customer/their own customer" thing, or do you mean something else?

Secondly, if it's saturated that downline is free to move or fire themselves (and get a full refund). Why would the upline need to take any action? It's effectively self monitoring.

Because the upline is in a better position to observe the sales trends and control their overall territory. In traditional sales models, that's part of the main role of sales management.

What are the conditions of the refund, anyway? Amway compensates for non-product costs and time as well now?

Yup, but the claim was it's shrinking. Clearly it is not.

That was part of the claim, yes. The other part was that it was tiny. Objectively speaking, compared to retail sales, it is tiny. Less than one percent.

The revenue from good ol' Microsoft from a similar period (FY 6/06-6/07) was around 50 billion dollars, which is about one and a half times that of the entire direct selling industry.

The NSF certifications clearly apply to "superiority" - if the eSpring does something others don't in terms of water purification, it's clearly "superior", as do the Consumer Reports testing of SA8 and to a lesser extent the EuroMonitor assessment of Artistry as being in the "prestige" category.

If by "superiority" you mean "does what they say," I suppose. The issue of water filtration is actually quite a sticky ball of wax, particularly in the developed world with clean drinking water. There's a lot of scamming and snake oil, but that's a pretty big topic by itself. I avoided the issue on purpose - I'd rather not spend a lot of my time talking about drinking water filtration right now.

I don't know enough about EuroMonitor or what they do to assign a value to their "prestige" category. Would you care to expand my knowledge of their system of ratings and how it is determined? Are they using testing or customer-satisfaction based ratings? What's the deal?

Consumer Satisfaction surveys are an objective view of what consumers think of the products, which from a business perspective is actually more important than the actual benefits of the product. It's reasonable to assume however that consumers are generally more satisfied but products they perceive offer better value.

I didn't say anything about a business perspective. I was talking about the closest objective measure of a product's quality possible. In that case, I could care less what the customers think... I'm more interested in how a product performs in testing versus price if you want to make claims about product superiority.

Nutrilite decided it wasn't worth the money recertifying every year. Personally I think they should have, but I don't run the company.

I guess it was worth doing it once to get the talking point.

So companies need to pay for recertification? Interesting... that adjusts my views of the NSF certification a bit.

In general I agree with you (this is an area of which I have a deal of expertise), however Nutrilite is significantly different in their approach to virtually all other supplement manufacturers, which is one reason I support them. Once I started to do the research I was quite astounded at what they're doing, and clinical support to back it up.

You're being very vague. Could you please cite said claims and clinical support?

It's impossible to make that claim about any product, unless your comparing exactly the same product from different sources. Value, or "better deal" is inherently a subjective thing.

This is simply not true. You can measure how well something does what it is supposed to do. This is done all the time with comparable products: cars, detergeants, paints, nutritional supplements, appliances... you name it. There are well established objective measures of quality in a number of categories, and groups (like CR) dedicated to applying those as fairly as possible for the benefit of the consumers at large.

13% better performance is similar?

Yes, especially considering the scale of the data and the high performance of both (not to mention that CR seems to have used a worst-case scenario for their tests). Also, 13% better performance at 200% worse cost is hardly a good tradeoff.

They also got a number of factors wrong, including the price, and claiming it was only available via online purchase.

Yeah... about the price. It's either CR's calculated per-load price or some guy's estimate based on something else. Does anyone have something to better support either estimate? Did CR use the manufacturer-recommended amount and the other person use the "total number of loads" or something?

Oh, so now it's back to subjective measures? :) It's was an objective measure of cleaning ability. The SA8 was clearly superior. It also has other benefits not judged by CR. In the end though, value is subjective.

I'm talking about value as in price/performance, however you want to quantify that.

What other benefits might those be?

Amway's "direct" price is available to anyone, Tide's distributor price is not. You also don't necessarily have to pay shipping. I don't charge shipping to any of my customers

Okay.

No, Amway's "direct" price is available to anyone selling Amway products. Similarly, Tide's distributor price (note: not wholesale price but the price to small volume distributors) is available to anyone selling Tide willing to buy in small-level bulk.

Do a price comparison of Artistry (more than a third of Amway's business), to the other brands that have been independently judged to be in the same category. You will find that Artistry is clearly cheaper.

I don't know enough about this business and cannot find sufficient objective data to do this, which is why I have avoided doing so.

Nutrilite, more than half Amway's business, is a different story altogether and not something I want to get into here. They're not "normal" vitamin supplements.

Oh, they're not, are they? What claims do they make, and what do they have to back them up?

Maybe you could start another thread in the science/math/technology section, or general skepticism to talk about the vitamins.

The Atheist

6th May 2008, 01:00 PM

Mr. Icerat:

The "source" of all your data and charts is:"The World Federation of Direct Selling Associations". A MLM industry PR group.

I'd long since given up looking at them, so good spot - I love that kind of thing. I've seen a lot of it lately; Wildcat quoting NORML on marijuana facts and Larsen quoting.... himself! (unsurprisingly)

And by the way, your stupid analogy that recruiting more "down line" is the same as a store hiring more sales clerks, because more sales people = more sales.....now just THINK about that for a minute....that must be why my local Walmart just hired 10,000 more clerks so they will generate more sales!!... wait, hey, they didn't just hire 10,000 more clerks...stupid Walmart!

You caught my eye with that, because your premise is right, but your target's wrong. Walmart doesn't fit, because they're a store. An excellent comparison would be a van salesman - to either business or domestic customers. I deal with several companies which are highly successful at generating product sales from the back of a van. None of them suddenly decide to increase sales by hiring another 50 salespeople.

(n.b. this is the last response to icerat from me...honest...I'm through!)

I did that a while back, but I will say this to icerat:

I praised your perseverance previously, which you immediately took - and quite rightly so.

Just imagine: if you could bring the passion and perseverance to a real business/job, how well could you be doing? (And making a lot more money than selling some penny-ante system and drawing the same circles on the same pieces of paper)

I'm just giving you the benefit of quarter of a century of dealing with people and their jobs and financial health. Of all the hundreds and hundreds of people I've seen sucked into Amway and MLM, not one of them has made a success out of it. On the other hand, I've watched people start part-time businesses themselves which have grown to be multi-million dollar enterprises employing 50-100 people, or simply have career growth to senior management. Not one of those people would touch MLM with a barge-pole.

Please, if you really want to be a success, would your time be better spent actually getting out there and doing something, or in here, fruitlessly defending a system which has had its flaws pointed out most ably in this thread? Get over yourself, get a decent job selling and forget about MLM. Amway was going to be the Way of the Future, which it demonstrably isn't and I've labelled it the Way of the Credulous.

You're living proof - a smart, motivated bloke, but credulous enough not to see the obvious fishhook that if you tried harder elsewhere, you'd be more successful and have far fewer opponents.

Each to his own...

icerat

6th May 2008, 02:25 PM

Mr. Icerat:

The "source" of all your data and charts is:"The World Federation of Direct Selling Associations". A MLM industry PR group. I.e BS!!

Oh good grief. The data is sourced from each individual country and supplied on the site. Individual countries explain their data sources on their websites, generally independently assessed or government statistics. It's all accounted for and verifiable.

The number of conspiracy theorists on this website is surprisingly high :boggled:

And by the way, your stupid analogy that recruiting more "down line" is the same as a store hiring more sales clerks, because more sales people = more sales.....now just THINK about that for a minute....that must be why my local Walmart just hired 10,000 more clerks so they will generate more sales!!... wait, hey, they didn't just hire 10,000 more clerks...stupid Walmart!

WalMart *did* hire more clerks, but they hire them in different locations. Same as us. If WalMart had too many folk in an area, the sales volume wouldn't follow and no profit would be made. If Amway had too many folk in an area, the sales volume wouldn't follow and no profit would be made.

It's no different.

icerat

6th May 2008, 02:38 PM

Just imagine: if you could bring the passion and perseverance to a real business/job, how well could you be doing? (And making a lot more money than selling some penny-ante system and drawing the same circles on the same pieces of paper)

Ummm ... I own three other more traditional businesses apart from my Amway business. I have founded and sold a number of other companies. I'm doing just fine thank you.

I'm just giving you the benefit of quarter of a century of dealing with people and their jobs and financial health. Of all the hundreds and hundreds of people I've seen sucked into Amway and MLM, not one of them has made a success out of it.

I'd I've seen hundreds and hundreds of people join Amway and make a great success of it, including a number of close friends.

On the other hand, I've watched people start part-time businesses themselves which have grown to be multi-million dollar enterprises employing 50-100 people, or simply have career growth to senior management.

And I've seen people do the same. I've also seen folk start businesses and end up hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and I've seen folk hit senior management and burn out.

Not one of those people would touch MLM with a barge-pole.

A good friend of mine (new him before Amway), a very smart man (topped his school and university course) and also a successful traditional business owner and Amway Emerald once said "there's only 2 reasons people aren't interested in the Amway business model - one is they're a criminal at heart and not interested in earning money legally, the other is they don't understand it"

If it operated the way I've seen people here think it does, I wouldn't touch MLM with a barge-pole either.

Please, if you really want to be a success, would your time be better spent actually getting out there and doing something, or in here, fruitlessly defending a system which has had its flaws pointed out most ably in this thread? Get over yourself, get a decent job selling and forget about MLM. [/QUOTE]

Only ever had one job, resigned it well over a decade ago. No thanks. If want to spend my time on my hobby of correcting misconceptions about MLM, I can, and do.

Amway was going to be the Way of the Future, which it demonstrably isn't and I've labelled it the Way of the Credulous.

Do you believe every TV advertisements hyperbole about their products? Why do you believe some dudes hyperbole about Amway? I doubt direct selling will ever be a majority of retailing. Doesn't mean there's not a lot of money to be made.

You're living proof - a smart, motivated bloke, but credulous enough not to see the obvious fishhook that if you tried harder elsewhere, you'd be more successful and have far fewer opponents.

As someone who has done and is doing both traditional businesses and MLM (and continues to do both, in the middle of developing a business plan and budget for a new company this month) - done properly, Amway is easier and gives better long-term returns on the time investment. It's also truly great products, a hell of a lot of fun and very rewarding.

Each to his own...

Indeed. It's not for everyone, it's for anyone.

NewtonTrino

6th May 2008, 06:46 PM

Icerat sounds like a bunch of Amway tape snippets stuck together.

balrog666

6th May 2008, 07:50 PM

Icerat sounds like a bunch of Amway tape snippets stuck together.

He probably learned it all from those tapes and books and sales aids and meetings he spends so much on. Each month. Every month. Forever. Until he wises up. Or until he runs out of money.

icerat

7th May 2008, 02:46 AM

And so it goes. Can't argue the facts, so denigration and claims I am lying is all you are left with.

Of course, we already know from his refusal to answer direct questions that NewtonTrino hasn't even listened to much in the way of "Amway tapes" (if any - Amway itself doesn't produce that much in the way of tapes). So how the hell would he even know what they sound like? He doesn't know. But like most everything else regarding this topic (unfortunately a common situation) he thinks he knows everything. Indeed he's sure of it. There's nothing like certainty to help you through your battles with reality!

JonnyFive

7th May 2008, 07:05 AM

A good friend of mine (new him before Amway), a very smart man (topped his school and university course) and also a successful traditional business owner and Amway Emerald once said "there's only 2 reasons people aren't interested in the Amway business model - one is they're a criminal at heart and not interested in earning money legally, the other is they don't understand it"

Does this sort of thing really sound insightful and enlightened to you? Does it sound intelligent?

It sounds trite and ignorant to me, and I can't believe someone with a university-level education would actually let something like this come out of their mouth.

I hope I don't need to point out why.

icerat

7th May 2008, 08:33 AM

Which just goes to show which group you belong in :D

I agree with him. If you actually understand the business model, you really have to be a criminal (or an idiot) not to be interested. It's a brilliant business model, simple as that.

Now, being interested doesn't necessarily mean getting involved. I'm interested in lots of different business ideas. New one arose today actually. I'm interested, I'll check it out, do more research, run the numbers etc, see if it's worth giving up time (and money) I could invest in some other project.

The only real reason not to at least be interested is because you don't understand it - you hold many of the misconceptions I've encountered here.

JonnyFive

7th May 2008, 09:09 AM

Which just goes to show which group you belong in :D

I agree with him. If you actually understand the business model, you really have to be a criminal (or an idiot) not to be interested. It's a brilliant business model, simple as that.

I find your insinuations insulting and base.

The only real reason not to at least be interested is because you don't understand it - you hold many of the misconceptions I've encountered here.

I understand perfectly well the MLM model. I also fully understand your various defenses of it generally and Amway particularly, and I don't really find them very convincing. Maybe in your eyes you've given all kinds of quality information that only a moron wouldn't be convinced by, but all I see is a lot of "well, there's no good data" and "that doesn't mean what it looks like" kind of stuff combined with plenty of anecdotal evidence and waffling about the definition of "MLM" versus "illegal pyramid."

The volume of criticism of the Amway model on the net is overwhelming. This is not, as you seem to believe, one web site or a few people. Why do you think that is?

I don't see this kind of criticism of McDonalds. Or Starbucks. Dunkin Donuts. Subway. Quiznos. Blimpie. Blockbuster. Sylvan Learning Centers. Mary Kay. Tupperware. Kumon.

Somehow Amway is singled out to be targetted with court proceedings, legal rulings, dozens of negative web sites about its business opportunities, and numerous comparisons to a cult and pyramid scam.

I did a quick Google search on "Amway business analysis." What did I get? (these are not selected, I just picked the first few links, except a YouTube one because I can't view them at work and have no idea what it is about and some guy's resume because, honestly, who gives a crap?):

http://www.cocs.com/jhoagland/
http://www.amquix.info/amway.html
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_links/amquix.info.htm (links to the above)
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/amway/amway-bite-analysis-behavior.htm
http://www.startaid.com/review/3576375/Quixtar-Amway-Business-Analysis.html (links to amquix.info)
http://www.geocities.com/lavlesh/amway.htm
http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/psamain/resources/negsumgame.html
http://www.dmoz.org/Business/Opportunities/Opposing_Views/Amway_and_Quixtar/ (overwhelmingly negative links)
http://bwwsot.blogspot.com/2006/04/get-your-overpriced-lotions-potions.html
http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/Amway/otherside/tosp17.htm
http://destroyamway.blogspot.com/2007/10/amway-is-imploding-while-ago-on-my-main.html
http://www.mlmsurvivor.com/land_v_larsen.htm
http://antoverlord.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/amwayquixtar-comment-analysis/
http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/research2.html
http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2008/01/uk_nears_decision_on_possible.html (about the UK decision on kicking Amway out of the country)
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/postma-memo-1983.html
http://q.webring.com/hub?ring=amaaaw&list (anti-Amway webring... feel the love)
http://www.microstrategy.com/news/pr_system/press_release.asp?ctry=167&id=937 (finally something positive! Boilerplate written by a company that Amway apparently bought software from!)

And so on and so forth. Why the high volume of negativity? Why aren't there comprehensive, positive overviews of the incredible Amway business opportunity? Why can't anyone give anything substantial to supplement their claims of how amazing Amway is other than anecdotes?

Everyone that isn't interested in MLM is either uninformed, an idiot, or a criminal. Yeah, whatever.

NewtonTrino

7th May 2008, 12:16 PM

Well if it quacks like a duck....

Almo

7th May 2008, 12:39 PM

Well if it quacks like a duck....

Amway makes quacking sounds? :confused:

icerat

7th May 2008, 03:17 PM

I find your insinuations insulting and base.

My insinuation that perhaps you don't know as much about MLM as you think you do? Facts are not insulting. You have misconceptions, and the list of sites clearly shows one reason why - you seem to be intent on using the internet as your source.

I understand perfectly well the MLM model.

No you don't, you've made a number of statements that are factually incorrect.

The volume of criticism of the Amway model on the net is overwhelming. This is not, as you seem to believe, one web site or a few people. Why do you think that is?

Easy - because Amway spent a decade actively stopping people who support Amway publishing on the internet. They were paranoid about people making false claims or spamming, and actively decided to ignore a handful of critics in the belief they'd just go away

When you actually take a perspective on the enormous size of Amway and the number of people involved, the volume of criticism on the internet is extremely small. Heck, I analysed emails Scott Larsen posted on his Amquix website, and to my shock found less than a third were actually anti-Amway. A third were pro, the other third were people checking things out and being swayed by his site.

Some suggested reading for a little balance and understanding -

Amway and the Internet - A History, Part I (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/8610/90/lang,en/)

The Problem of Context: Amway and Quixtar - it's bigger than you think (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/2528/90/lang,en/)

Amway/Quixtar Myths, Psycho-facts and the Internet Echo Chamber (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/1801/90/lang,en/)

I don't see this kind of criticism of McDonalds. Or Starbucks. Dunkin Donuts. Subway. Quiznos. Blimpie. Blockbuster. Sylvan Learning Centers. Mary Kay. Tupperware. Kumon.

You didn't try very hard then, did you? Google McDonalds sucks (http://www.google.com/search?q=McDonalds+sucks) - 430,000 pages

Somehow Amway is singled out to be targetted with court proceedings, legal rulings, dozens of negative web sites about its business opportunities, and numerous comparisons to a cult and pyramid scam.

Singled out for court proceedings - are you serious? There is hardly any given it's size! It has very few court casees ongoing. "Dozens" of negative websits? Dozens? There were nearly 4 million Amway business owners who renewed last year. There was thousands of new platinums and higher earning significant incomes, just last year alone. Put the numbers in perspective please.

I did a quick Google search on "Amway business analysis."

A carefully chosen term to pick up Scott Larsen's website perhaps? They all repeat the same rehashed information and misconceptions. Most of them are old, some of them (like Pyramid Scheme Alert) are outright dishonest. Some of them report legitimate problems - problems related to the way folk ran *their* businesses, not the model or Amway

But this one I will comment on -

http://www.dmoz.org/Business/Opportunities/Opposing_Views/Amway_and_Quixtar/ (overwhelmingly negative links)[/QUOTE]

This is a major issue in my opinion. DMOZ is used by many search engines and influences their rankings. What's more it's database is free and is duplicated all over the internet, again helping promote websites listed on DMOZ.

DMOZ refuses to list any websites that are pro-Amway except the 3 corporate websites. Their "reasoning" which is sensible in it's original meaning, is they don't want to list every damn website of every guy who's trying to sell stuff on their MLM site. However, they've chosed to interpret this as refusing all sites except anti-MLM sites. There is not even a category for sites that have a positive opinion of Amway. They refuse to list Amway Wiki (http://www.amwaywiki.com), which is an open wiki. They refuse to list The truth about amway (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com) which is an analysis site on which you can't buy a damn thing and includes criticism as well as support of Amway. They refuse to list
“Speaking of Amway, what are YOUR thoughts on…?” (http://speakingofamway.com/blog) blog because it's run by an IBO and doesn't fit under "opposing views" even though it's regularly critical as well as supportive.

Heck, they won't even list a site by one of the most successful couples in the business - Top 4 (http://www.peterundevamm.com/?lang=2). That guy, Peter Müller-Meerkatz was a German PhD student in marketing. He was research illegal pyramids and other illegal marketing schemes and checked out Amway as part of it. He researched it thoroughly - and he joined.

People that have investigated this tell me the editor for the DMOZ Amway categories is a well known anti-Amway zealot. He simply won't list supporting sites, but is happy to list the negative ones. This completely unbalances many searches.

Why can't anyone give anything substantial to supplement their claims of how amazing Amway is other than anecdotes?

Here's a few places to start. Read some real books from real authors, real experts, and professional publishers.

The Direct Selling Revolution: Understand the Growth of the Amway Corporation - Dominque Xardel

Xardel is a professor of management and Director of a major French business school. He's a former Director of the French Graduate School of Business, ESSEC, and a former Editor-in-Chef of the European Harvard Business Review.

Empire of Freedom: The Amway Story - James W. Robinson

Robinson is a best selling author and Senior Vice President of the US Chamber of Commerce.

The Victory: The Real Story of Today's Amway - Shad Helmstetter

Helmstetter, a best selling author, has a PhD in Psychology and spent 5 years researching Amway. His comment on the "cult" claims - "The old myth that Amway is a cult is supported only by people who are either misinformed or uninformed. I would like to examine their research."

The Possible Dream: A Candid Look at Amway - Charles Paul Conn

Charles Paul Conn is an author, has a PhD in Psychology and is currently President of Lee University.

Amway: The True Story of the Company That Transformed the Lives of Millions - Wilbur Cross

Wilbur Cross is an historian and best selling author.

The New Professionals: The Rise of Network Marketing as The Next Major Profession... - Professor Charles King

Dr. Charles W. King is the Professor of Marketing at the University of Illinois in Chicago. He received his doctorate in business administration from Harvard University and bachelors and masters degrees from the University of Texas.

If you're in to documentaries instead you could try Profiles of the American Dream: Rich DeVos, Jay Van Andel, and the remarkable story of Amway (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3354142107664121908&q=Profiles+of+the+America+Dream&ei=CBgiSLH3EZDWjALmkpHFAQ&hl=en)

Business leaders, Academics, Psychologists, Historians. Heck, I can give you multiple Presidents of the United States praising Amway. One of the pall bearers for Pres. Gerald Ford's funeral was one of the founder's of Amway!

All these folk have positive things to say (and there's a lot more books!). You quote a small number of websites by a few disgrunted formed Amway business owners. A few out of tens of millions that have checked it out or experienced it in some form or another. It would be astounding if there weren't some problems!

Check out this list of just some of the folk and companies (http://www.amwaywiki.com/index.php?title=Endorsements) that have either explicity or implicitly endorsed Amway and/or Amway products.

Get a little perspective!

NewtonTrino

7th May 2008, 04:01 PM

How much money are you making, ahem, I mean losing again?

Anyone that gets involved in this scam is a fool. Lucky for the kingpins PT Barnum was right.

The Atheist

7th May 2008, 04:28 PM

Why can't anyone give anything substantial to supplement their claims of how amazing Amway is other than anecdotes?

[Grammar Tyrant Mode On]

Sorry to pull you up on this one, mate, but the plural of "anecdote" is "evidence".

[/Grammar Tyrant Mode Off]

Everyone that isn't interested in MLM is either uninformed, an idiot, or a criminal. Yeah, whatever.

Again, another marvellously constructed post.

:bigclap

Tanstaafl

7th May 2008, 05:11 PM

A good friend of mine (new him before Amway), a very smart man (topped his school and university course) and also a successful traditional business owner and Amway Emerald once said "there's only 2 reasons people aren't interested in the Amway business model - one is they're a criminal at heart and not interested in earning money legally, the other is they don't understand it".

If I were considering getting involved in Amway, and encountered this... I would be burried in red flags.

And I'd run like hell.

NewtonTrino

7th May 2008, 05:27 PM

This is the actual attitude a lot of these brainwashed morons have. They truly believe it's the best opportunity in the world. The reason they believe this is that they buy tape after tape and attend rally after rally (all of which tell them the same crap people with JOBS are broke etc etc). All of this brainwashing actually WORKS. Religion operates similarly except they can get at children more easily than Amway.

icerat

7th May 2008, 05:56 PM

I gave the challenge earlier - show me something better. What else can an average person (or even above average) do in less than 10 years to develop an asset that brings in >$100,000/yr "passive" income.

NT, I see you contine to make claims about tapes you've never listened to and seminars you've never attended. I might have to rethink my disbelief in an omniscient god, since you seem to be "him".

Oh, but wait, you're wrong. Guess that blows the omniscience thing, huh?:wide-eyed

well ... unless you're deliberately telling falsehoods ..... :dig:

NewtonTrino

7th May 2008, 07:05 PM

Well first you might want to back up this passive income crap.

For example you still refuse to talk specifics about your income. Maybe you can find a higher pin who will show us where he makes his money and prove it? I thought not.

As far as better, flipping burgers or pan handling is a better "opportunity" than this. At least you won't actually lose money...

Icerat, you continue to make claims that you can't back up. Find us a few of these walk aways that make 100k+ a year from Amway income. They seem to be surprisingly scarce.

NewtonTrino

7th May 2008, 07:09 PM

well ... unless you're deliberately telling falsehoods .....

Yeah, me and 1000's of others who actually know what a cult / business scam look like are all lying.

Icerat, just answer one question. How much PROFIT have you made from Amway since you've been in?

You have yet to tell us why your story would be atypical, yet you REFUSE to talk about income. If I was trying to get you into my business I would tell you exactly what I make and what you would need to do to make a similar income. Yet over and over scamway reps will only point to their upline (who refuse to show tax returns which are the only verifiable way of checking income claims).

balrog666

7th May 2008, 07:36 PM

I gave the challenge earlier - show me something better. What else can an average person (or even above average) do in less than 10 years to develop an asset that brings in >$100,000/yr "passive" income.

NT, I see you contine to make claims about tapes you've never listened to and seminars you've never attended. I might have to rethink my disbelief in an omniscient god, since you seem to be "him".

Oh, but wait, you're wrong. Guess that blows the omniscience thing, huh?:wide-eyed

well ... unless you're deliberately telling falsehoods ..... :dig:

Your obsession with the idea of "passive income" earned off of the next generation of idiots you recruit into a group of MLM-pyramids is really something you need to get over.

But, like any addict, you must ultimately discover that for yourself and then really want to improve both your reputation and your life. It won't be easy but you have been shown the necessary tools for it here.

Good luck with that when you get there.

icerat

8th May 2008, 03:02 AM

Oh good grief. My life is just great thank you. 10:50am, just got home from cycling my son to daycare, stopped off on the way home to buy some things. Going to sit down at the PC and do a little work now, planning on visiting a downline about 3pm and helping him get started building a business before I cycle to pick up my son again. How's your Thursday looking? Friday's looking much the same to me. Weather being good, Saturday going out to an island for a bbq with some friends (none of whom are in the business). It's nice to be able to enjoy the great sunny weather.

"passive income" is developed from having satisfied customers who can order great products without you needing to be involved. By networking you help others do the same for their own reasons, which means your business can expand without you needing to be involved.

People by what they want, when they want. Some people market that and the products to others, most people don't. You think for some bizarre reason that simple idea is a scam, I think it's a great business idea. Folk like Dominique Xardel, former head of <a href="http://www.essec.edu/home">ESSEC</a> (ranked one of the top 10 business schools in the world by WSJ) after researching it properly, agrees with me, not you. Folk like Dr. Peter Müller-Meerkatz, after researching it properly and doing a PhD in the field, agree with me, not you. Folk like Prof Charles King, a marketing professor, after researching it properly, agree with me, not you. Folk like the US Chamber of Commerce, the largest business federation in the world, have twice voted Amway managment as heads of that organisation - they agree with me, not you.

But you've got a handle of people here who agree with you. You believe what you want to believe. You ignore statistics and hard data I've provided you with, claiming I've given little more than "anecdotes". You ignore the opinions of experts in the fields of business, marketing, economics, psychology.

You prefer to believe a couple of handfuls of websites and their anecdotes, despite the fact they represet a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the percentage of people involved with this business model.

You have your beliefs, evidence be damned.

Clearly the discussion in another thread about losing the term "skeptic" and replacing it with something like "rational thinker" doesn't apply to this area, as you've simply thrown rationality out the door and replaced it with emotional defences of what you want to believe, for whatever reason.

That's a shame. C'est la vie.

JonnyFive

8th May 2008, 08:57 AM

I gave the challenge earlier - show me something better. What else can an average person (or even above average) do in less than 10 years to develop an asset that brings in >$100,000/yr "passive" income.

This is a blatant straw man. Asking people to show alternatives is not the same as demonstrating that Amway is a good way to obtain that income. It just sounds like a stupid Amway talking point, one I hear the webmaster of that truthaboutamway site repeating on his forums too, interesting enough.

Business analysis would be nice, but it's nonexistant. The best income stats are craptacular (no matter what you want to use them to show), and the big AMOs and Amway corporate don't seem to be doing anything to improve that. I read this (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/589/69/lang,en/) through, and the author has to make some interesting statistical leaps to reach his conclusions, because the data just isn't that good.

I put out my objections to the MLM model generally, and I stand by them. You said a bunch of what basically amounted to "but that's not MLM," but you're just redefining things to suit your own needs (and focusing things on Amway, because I'm assuming that's your main/only MLM experience). MLM, at its most basic, is a business model that focuses on the use of an expanding downline to obtain business and spread out. The rest are details left to the specific company. It's primary problem is that expanding downline - it can impose extra cost burden, infrastructure burden, and it can become cumbersome and obnoxious to the customers, depending on how the actual MLM is organized.

And, apparently, it is a model that really lends itself to abuse for scams. I agree that most companies claiming to be MLM opportunities are scams. What I don't agree with is that this somehow makes them not MLMs, or not "true MLMs" or whatever (so does that mean that businesses that rip people off using traditional business models aren't really businesses or something?). Are you familiar with the logical fallacy known as "no true Scotsman?"

And the volume of sales in MLM are absolutely dwarfed by retail sales, and growth stats seem to indicate the two grow at similar rates. So MLM doesn't seem to exactly be taking the world by storm.

And then you say stupid stuff like how everyone that isn't interested in Amway's business model is either stupid, misinformed or criminal (well, to be fair, you didn't say it - you simply agree with the sentiment).

Wonderful.

Thinking in CT

8th May 2008, 09:43 AM

I think the essential nature of the MLM scheme is to mislead its new participants into believing that they are investors/business-owners when in fact they are the consumers. They are the people who actually provide the revenues to the system (buying the product, semiars,"tools" whatever) AND (this is the beauty of MLM for the real owners) recruiting new consumers. There is, in fact, an almost never ending supply of those - they are supplied by the population at a rate of about one per minute.

icerat

8th May 2008, 11:01 AM

This is a blatant straw man. Asking people to show alternatives is not the same as demonstrating that Amway is a good way to obtain that income.

No, of course it isn't. But if it can be done in Amway (and it has, many times), so it's perfectly reasonable to ask for alternatives to establish whether it's a "good" way or not. It's not a straw man at all. Without comparison one can't make a judgement.

Business analysis would be nice, but it's nonexistant. The best income stats are craptacular

No there not. They're not perfect, but they're quite reasonable statistically.

For Quixtar (Amway North America) -

* IBOs earned $370.1 million in bonuses and incentives in fiscal 2006, bringing their seven-year total to more than $1.72 billion.
* More than 370,000 Independent Business Owners received a bonus in FY 05.
* The average bonus and cash payments earned by a Diamond IBO in 2005 were $146,995.*
* The average bonus and cash payments earned by an Emerald in 2005 were $72,241.*
* The average bonus and cash payments earned by a Q12 Platinum, an IBO who qualifies at the Platinum level all 12 months of the year, were $47,472.*
* The largest annual bonus earned by a Diamond IBO in 2005 was $1,083,421.
* The largest annual bonus earned by an Emerald IBO in 2005 was $688,869.

The average incomes for Platinums, Emeralds, and Diamonds are the important ones. They tell you what type of gross profit you can expect if you build a business of a certain size turnover.

I read this (http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/589/69/lang,en/) through, and the author has to make some interesting statistical leaps to reach his conclusions, because the data just isn't that good.

No, the data isn't that good, so one has to deal with what one has. That is my site, and my article. Some assumptions were necessary but nothing I'd call a "leap".

I put out my objections to the MLM model generally, and I stand by them. You said a bunch of what basically amounted to "but that's not MLM," but you're just redefining things to suit your own needs

I'd disagree and say that's what you are doing, not me. The fact that what you claim is MLM would result in a non-sustainable business model that is likely illegal is a bit of a hint that perhaps you're not the one who is correct. There are many MLMs that have been around for decades. They've been checked out by governments and other authorities and OK'd. Given the nature of language however, if enough of the "scams" keep calling themselves MLM, then that pretty much makes that the definition of MLM, in which case legitimate companies like Amway need to come up with another term - which folk regularly try to do because of this very issue.

I would say however that those "scams" already have a names - illegal pyramids. Just because they claim to be MLMs doesn't make them legal, and doesn't make them MLM.

(and focusing things on Amway, because I'm assuming that's your main/only MLM experience).

Direct experience, yes, I have however been researching MLMs of all varieties for a decade and correspond regularly with folk from other branches of the industry.

MLM, at its most basic, is a business model that focuses on the use of an expanding downline to obtain business and spread out.

And that's different how to traditional distribution? A manufacturer sells to a number of wholesalers, who sell to a larger number of retailers, who sell to an even larger number of consumers. The manufacturer wants more wholesalers, the wholesalers want more retailers, the retailers want more consumers.

Only real difference in our model is it's relatively cheap and simple for a consumer to become a retailer if the want. It's relatively simple for a retailer to move into wholesaling if they want.

The rest are details left to the specific company. It's primary problem is that expanding downline - it can impose extra cost burden, infrastructure burden, and it can become cumbersome and obnoxious to the customers, depending on how the actual MLM is organized.

Please, I've explained this to you many times. Not just using my data, but in particular the Federal Trade Commissions. There isn't an ever expanding downline. The majority of MLMs use what's called a "breakaway" plan. Once it gets to a certain size, the MLM component stops. It's like what happens in traditional distribution. If a retailer gets to the stage where he's dealing in large enough volumes, he'll stop dealing with the wholesaler and go straight to the manufacturer. The "breakaway" plans use the same approach, except that the original wholesaler gets a percentage for having found the business in the first place.

There is no extra cost burden, since the MLM structure is limited. There is no extra infrastructure burden within the network, except perhaps expansion of manufacturing capacity. There is zero perceivable difference to the end consumer no matter what the size of the network. Cumbersome and obnoxious how? Get online, order whatever products you want, have them delivered to your door. It doesn't change no matter the size of the business you have, a double triple super duper diamond or a brand new IBO or indeed a customer all does the same.

Are you familiar with the logical fallacy known as "no true Scotsman?"

It comes down to the question of who gets to define what an MLM is. In essence it's as I outlined above. It's a model where any consumer can become a retailer if they so chose, and any retailer can become a wholesaler if they so chose. That's pretty much it. This is why earlier in this thread I've mentioned that MLM isn't really a type of business, it's a business strategy.

And the volume of sales in MLM are absolutely dwarfed by retail sales, and growth stats seem to indicate the two grow at similar rates. So MLM doesn't seem to exactly be taking the world by storm.

So? Doesn't make it a bad business anymore than that would make traditional retail a bad business. Just because some folk rant and rave about it taking over the world is irrelevant to anything except perhaps your opinion of them. Plenty of folk ranted and raved the same thing about more traditional dot coms. They were wrong too.

And then you say stupid stuff like how everyone that isn't interested in Amway's business model is either stupid, misinformed or criminal (well, to be fair, you didn't say it - you simply agree with the sentiment).

I do. As a business person, I honestly cannot understand how anyone who truly understood this model would not be interested. Heck, even just as a consumer, in the major markets the Amway model has some serious benefits if you're willing to do a little bit of work at the beginning. Compared to traditional business there's a lot more plusses and a lot few minuses. The biggest minus is how misunderstood it is. Which, btw, is ultimately entirely the fault of the industry itself. For an industry that's supposed to be about marketing, it's actually done a pretty awful job of marketing itself. As Charles King talks about though, that's changing. The organization I work with, within Amway, is chock full of folk with both degrees and other businesses. It's a different approach and different environment to the rah rah evangelicalism most often associated with Amway, something I personally find anathema, but fortunately also have never directly experienced. I have however experienced it through my MLM and Amway research efforts, which comes back to my original point - it's about the folk and the way they run their businesses, not the model itself. Indeed, you said earlier that perhaps MLM lends itself to "scammers", and there's some truth in that. The thing is that virtually anyone can start a business in this model. It takes very little capital and very little knowledge to get started. With no entry exam or licensing, and low cost of entry, there's little to stop folk who want to scam people from starting.

It's a plus and a minus. Amway is making some changes in this area however. In the US they're making some online courses compulsory for folk to be able to earn bonuses. They've also set up a voluntary accreditation system for the companies that want to sell training and motivational materials to IBOs. It's voluntary, but they linked many of the major bonuses for IBOs to being associated with an accredited organisation, or accredited one self. In the UK they'll be trialling a system where you can't sponsor anyone until after you've undertaken certain courses and developed a certain level of product sales. All of this should have very positive effects, but I imagine it will take years to become apparent to the marketplace at large.

NewtonTrino

8th May 2008, 03:03 PM

t's a different approach and different environment to the rah rah evangelicalism most often associated with Amway, something I personally find anathema,

Then why do you sound EXACTLY like every other Ambot on earth? From my research so far I find little different between N21 and any of the Dexter spinoffs. You guys sound exactly the same. The tools money still isn't accounted for.

You have your beliefs, evidence be damned.

I would argue that you sound much more like the religious believer than any of the critics.

Open your eyes. This is just not a good opportunity. Even if you thought MLM was a good idea it would be smarter to source a product yourself and create your own pyramid than to try and sell Amway products tainted by years of scamming.

You should really ask yourself if you've objectively examined all of the claims. Do you think you know where every dollar of tools/function money goes? Or are you just guessing? Could you be wrong? Is it even POSSIBLE you could be wrong?

I have yet to see ANY evidence that there isn't more profit in tools for a diamond. $150k split between two people is pretty LAME for the amount of work. Another several hundred thousand in tools money sure would take the edge off if I was a diamond....

The Atheist

8th May 2008, 03:20 PM

...There is, in fact, an almost never ending supply of those - they are supplied by the population at a rate of about one per minute.

:bgrin:

icerat

8th May 2008, 03:53 PM

Then why do you sound EXACTLY like every other Ambot on earth? From my research so far I find little different between N21 and any of the Dexter spinoffs.

uhuh. I've asked you many times to actually let us in on what this "research" was - you've refused. And you've made claims about more than just N21.

You guys sound exactly the same. The tools money still isn't accounted for.

BSM profit is a separate issue to whether MLM or Amway itself is worthwhile and legal.

I would argue that you sound much more like the religious believer than any of the critics.

And I would argue that you do. You willfully chose to ignore evidence that contradicts your belief system. You've regularly abused, vilified, and denigrated someone who provides that evidence.

Open your eyes. This is just not a good opportunity.

Compared to what? Still waiting.

Even if you thought MLM was a good idea it would be smarter to source a product yourself and create your own pyramid than to try and sell Amway products tainted by years of scamming.

No thanks, too much past experience with that part of traditional distribution. Pain in the *ss. As for the reputation issue, it's a problem and definitely a down side. My choice is to help correct the problems, and even with them I consider it worthwhile doing.

You should really ask yourself if you've objectively examined all of the claims. Do you think you know where every dollar of tools/function money goes? Or are you just guessing? Could you be wrong? Is it even POSSIBLE you could be wrong?

It doesn't matter!

I do have a very good idea of where the money goes, at least with the organization I work with, and I have sources that essentially cannot be bettered in that area, and even then I've verified them in other ways.

But it doesn't matter. At it's heart, N21 is a company I purchase services from. All that matters is whether I think I get value for money for the stuff I buy from them. I buy books and CDs and attend seminars from other sources as well. I've no idea what their profit is like either! I don't know Amway's either. It doesn't matter

Whether Amway or N21, if I think their offerings are good value, I promote them. I don't think all of Amway's or N21's offerings are good value, so I don't promote them.

I have yet to see ANY evidence that there isn't more profit in tools for a diamond. $150k split between two people is pretty LAME for the amount of work. Another several hundred thousand in tools money sure would take the edge off if I was a diamond....

It's very easy not to see any evidence, when you chose to dismiss it when evidence is provided that you don't like.

If you think the return isn't worth the effort to generate it, that's fine, your entitled to your opinion, and entitled to make the obvious choice not to do it.

Still waiting for suggested alternatives.

NewtonTrino

8th May 2008, 04:51 PM

I already suggested an alternative, flipping burgers or digging ditches.

As for the rest of it YES IT DAMN WELL DOES MATTER. Turning people into little Ambot clones is F*(&@^#$@ EVIL.

The fact that the regular business plan is so crappy is what has led to this entire tools mess. The fact that the majority of distributor money is made from tools completely compromises the entire system.

If it doesn't matter why can't we get full disclosure on where the tools money actually goes?

icerat

8th May 2008, 05:54 PM

I already suggested an alternative, flipping burgers or digging ditches.

Care to show the calculations that indicate that can make you 100k/yr after you stop flipping the burgers or digging ditches?

As for the rest of it YES IT DAMN WELL DOES MATTER. Turning people into little Ambot clones is F*(&@^#$@ EVIL.

Um, if people are creating "little Ambot clones" that has nothing at all to do with whether or not people are making money from offering products and services (eg BSM).

The fact that the regular business plan is so crappy is what has led to this entire tools mess.

I disagree. What may corrupts it is when folk offer BSM rebates based on some "pin level" they once achieved in Amway, and may never have achieved again. This means that if their Amway business struggles for whatever reason, then BSM becomes a larger and larger part of the income, percentage wise. If BSM rebates are linked to volume of BSM purchased, as is normal in trade, then this doesn't occur, since if the Amway business increases, so does the BSM business, and similarly if it declines.

Throw in "mates rates" deals and things get completely screwed up.

The fact that the majority of distributor money is made from tools completely compromises the entire system.

The fact is that is not a fact. Might have been in the past for some groups, may even still be for some groups. Certainly isn't the case for all groups today, indeed my information is that these days it's rare.

If it doesn't matter why can't we get full disclosure on where the tools money actually goes?

Well, I think full disclosure is a little bit too much to ask for. Why not ask Amway for full disclosure of where their revenues go? Or any other company?

I do however think publishing of average income statistics for BSM would be a good thing. Amway has actually been the primary driver behind stopping this, as they've a deal of paranoia in the area. The fear is that people will join for the opportunity to earn income from BSM as well as Amway instead of just the opportunity to join to earn income from Amway. They are worried that mixing and promoting the two together, to new people, might cause legal issues.

Another thing I'd like to see is more public disclosure of actual prices. There's a wide variety of pricing differences between different groups. This has been "protected" to a great extent because of the inherent risks involved with the nature of a networking business. However, it also means each individual BSM company operates as a virtual monopoly. While, as I said, I think I get value for money for what I buy from N21, one would expect that proper competition may drive prices down.

Which made me think of one other point of relevance, and of difference between groups - shear volume of BSM promoted. I've heard of groups that promote purchasing as many as 4 CDs a week on their educational/motivational programs. We promote 1 CD a week (plus 1 extra a month for people who have developed larger businesses). If you're promoting 2,3, or 4 a week, then (a) BSM profit obviously increases dramatically and (b) I don't think it's value for money. IMO the marginal utility decreases quite quickly.

If folk are being pressured to do that, which reportedly some are, then it's a serious problem.

Almo

9th May 2008, 11:28 AM

Which made me think of one other point of relevance, and of difference between groups - shear volume of BSM promoted. I've heard of groups that promote purchasing as many as 4 CDs a week on their educational/motivational programs. We promote 1 CD a week (plus 1 extra a month for people who have developed larger businesses). If you're promoting 2,3, or 4 a week, then (a) BSM profit obviously increases dramatically and (b) I don't think it's value for money. IMO the marginal utility decreases quite quickly.

Something stinks here if you need 4 CDs a month of motivational/organizational materials... I don't buy that many CDs of music and games! And I LOVE music and games.

What's the relevance? I find it really odd that this awesome business opportunity comes with a recommended purchase of 52 CDs per year of info on how to run it. Does running a McDonald's franchise need this sort of thing? I can't answer that, but I sincerely doubt it.

NewtonTrino

9th May 2008, 12:04 PM

Ha, you mean 4 per week. His organization looks like does 4-5 per month. Some organizations in the past have done that many PER WEEK. I don't think for the most part they can get away with that anymore (although you will probably find it somewhere).

Rasmus

9th May 2008, 12:39 PM

Which made me think of one other point of relevance, and of difference between groups - shear volume of BSM promoted. I've heard of groups that promote purchasing as many as 4 CDs a week on their educational/motivational programs. We promote 1 CD a week (plus 1 extra a month for people who have developed larger businesses). If you're promoting 2,3, or 4 a week, then (a) BSM profit obviously increases dramatically and (b) I don't think it's value for money. IMO the marginal utility decreases quite quickly.

I have to wonder: What kind of business could that be, if it needs a CD per month just to train or motivate people?

That just has to be so screwed up.

Either you are unable to run your business and get training/motivation. But then you should get that *before* you run the business.

Or you are able to run your business and need new motivation/advise on a weekly basis. But that simply means that something must be seriously wrong!

Plus, it seems to be a generic solution! You are in the business, therefore it is recommended that you use x CDs per month.

I'm sorry, but it would need a lot more than just numbers to convince me that a business like that might be a good idea. Chloroform would be a good start ...

NewtonTrino

9th May 2008, 01:45 PM

It's a good idea because then your downline will do the same and you can sell them plenty of CD's (and each CD tell's them to buy more CD's, Ain't it great!)

icerat

9th May 2008, 03:39 PM

Something stinks here if you need 4 CDs a month of motivational/organizational materials... I don't buy that many CDs of music and games! And I LOVE music and games.

What's the relevance? I find it really odd that this awesome business opportunity comes with a recommended purchase of 52 CDs per year of info on how to run it. Does running a McDonald's franchise need this sort of thing? I can't answer that, but I sincerely doubt it.

There's a few factors here. First of all, as I mentioned, when your building a business with effectively zero inbuilt external motivators, then you need to have internal motivators. There's no external motivation such as a boss who will fire you or tens of thousands of dollars of lost capital investment if you don't work. Like any business it takes time to be generating a decent enough income where immediate cashflow is a motivator (and even then, money is intrinsically a poor motivator).

For most people it's very difficult, from a psychological perspective, to build a part-time business on top of work you are already doing. Few people come home from a full-time job and want to then turn around and go out to work again, particular when the rewards can be months, even years away. With a McDonald's franchise you have likely put in upwards of a million dollars, you've had to undergo, at your expense and unpaid, some 6 months of on the job training, and you have McDonald's breathing down your neck making sure everything is running correctly. Plenty of external motivators.

So the need for regular motivation is higher than you might think, and even listening to the same song over and over again gets a bit boring. It's also one reason why it's common for the CDs, particularly for newer people to focus on working out their goals and dreams - so they can work out exactly why it is they are wanting to build a business and what they want to achieve out of it. In other words, identify and develop their internal motivators.

Secondly, it's a lot more than just motivation. 52 cds is what - 40 hours? It's frankly a little insulting that you think there's so little to learn in this industry that you think 40 hrs is excessive. How many hours a year do professional in other industries put in to education? Heck, degrees can be 40hrs a week.

Product and industry knowledge aside, a "platinum", which is one of the first significant levels in Amway, is typically responsible for an organization of a couple of hundred people. To think one can lead/manage an organization like that with little to no training is pretty naive. Most large companies have regular training and retreats for managers responsible for far fewer people than that.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, CDs are fantastic time savers. They're not just for me. If someone wants to know something specific about the business, I could sit down with them for an hour or two and explain it to them, or I could lend them a CD where someone far more successful and knowledgeable than me explains it. An hour of my time is worth a lot more than a $7 CD, and hour worth of the speaker on the CD is worth a heck of a lot more than that.

There are constantly new products and new techniques being developed. A CD or mp3 based continuing education program, along with it's motivational aspects, is a great way to communicate those to folk in an easy to accessible way, and they are great tools to lend to prospects and new IBOs to help inform them, motivate them and train them.

I find them of great value not just for my Amway business. When I regularly listen to N21 cds I am more focussed and efficient and productive in all the businesses I'm involved in. Many folk report similar experiences in their jobs.

NewtonTrino

9th May 2008, 03:55 PM

icerat

9th May 2008, 04:08 PM

Basically if you don't listen to the brainwashing a lot it won't take. Since they also make money from each of these (and they produce them using speeches from the different "functions" you attend) it's very profitable. The more you buy the more money they make, hence they will push as many as possible on you. Keep in mind these aren't textbooks, generally they are more motivational in nature.

Keep in mind that NewtonTrino apparently has listened to hardly any, and those he has listened to were all from just one of many different companies that supplies these types of materials to Amway business owners.

Here's some examples, the last two I listened to.

One was by the President of Alticor, Amway's parent company, speaking at a N21 seminar in the US, which I was not at. He was talking about the challenges they've been undergoing in the US this past year (yeah, that's motivating!) and giving some historical background about similar issues in the past and how the corp responded. He spoke about where they've gotten things wrong and where the company is heading in the future.

NewtonTrino would have us believe that this kind of information is not valuable. BTW, I personally think this type of speech should be made available, free of charge, by the corp. Nevertheless, still extremely useful information.

The second one was by a top IBO and talking about how to properly create volume in a network and help individuals be profitable. He spent a deal of time talking about some very exciting new products we have, including Gensona genetic testing and patented and clinically tested and supported nutritional supplements targetted towards folk with a particular gene which makes them significantly more susceptible to heart disease. He also spoke about how focussing on exclusive products like this help you build a "passive" income since it's not available anywhere else, and won't be any time soon, and once you get customers on it, they're on automatic delivery programs, and because of their heightened risk unlikely to want to stop ordering. He also gave advice about how to go about marketing these and other products.

All good business advice.

NewtonTrino

9th May 2008, 04:42 PM

Uh-huh, and would you say your examples are typical? How much did these cost again?

jimbob

10th May 2008, 03:19 AM

...There is, in fact, an almost never ending supply of those - they are supplied by the population at a rate of about one per minute.

:bgrin:

I'd disagree...

That will work initially, but the trouble is that these will then start to recruit, and this growth is going to eventually overtake the supply of mugs, who will be left fighting for a small selection of future mugs...

jimbob

10th May 2008, 03:46 AM

There's a few factors here. First of all, as I mentioned, when your building a business with effectively zero inbuilt external motivators, then you need to have internal motivators. There's no external motivation such as a boss who will fire you or tens of thousands of dollars of lost capital investment if you don't work. Like any business it takes time to be generating a decent enough income where immediate cashflow is a motivator (and even then, money is intrinsically a poor motivator).

The motivation of making money? Especially if you need the extra money.
<snip>

Secondly, it's a lot more than just motivation. 52 cds is what - 40 hours? It's frankly a little insulting that you think there's so little to learn in this industry that you think 40 hrs is excessive. How many hours a year do professional in other industries put in to education? Heck, degrees can be 40hrs a week.

And do you think that 40 hours noninteractive listening to a set of CD's is going to substitute for proper training?

One was by the President of Alticor, Amway's parent company, speaking at a N21 seminar in the US, which I was not at. He was talking about the challenges they've been undergoing in the US this past year (yeah, that's motivating!) and giving some historical background about similar issues in the past and how the corp responded. He spoke about where they've gotten things wrong and where the company is heading in the future.

NewtonTrino would have us believe that this kind of information is not valuable. BTW, I personally think this type of speech should be made available, free of charge, by the corp. Nevertheless, still extremely useful information.

I know you were being sarcastic about it being "motivational", but you obviously felt motivated by it.

It seems like standard motivational stuff to me.

"Share" "information" about some past problems, and you seem sincere. "Together we can pull through"

Anyone else familiar with Despair.inc? I feel this link (http://www.despair.com/motivation.html) is appropriate

The second one was by a top IBO and talking about how to properly create volume in a network and help individuals be profitable. He spent a deal of time talking about some very exciting new products we have, including Gensona genetic testing and patented and clinically tested and supported nutritional supplements targetted towards folk with a particular gene which makes them significantly more susceptible to heart disease. He also spoke about how focussing on exclusive products like this help you build a "passive" income since it's not available anywhere else, and won't be any time soon, and once you get customers on it, they're on automatic delivery programs, and because of their heightened risk unlikely to want to stop ordering. He also gave advice about how to go about marketing these and other products.

All good business advice.

Again it sounds as if you pay to listen to propaganda. In reputable companies, company propaganda is freely distributed.

icerat

10th May 2008, 07:54 AM

The motivation of making money? Especially if you need the extra money.

Did you read what I wrote at all? I covered why that's not a factor initially.

And do you think that 40 hours noninteractive listening to a set of CD's is going to substitute for proper training?

You don't believe lectures and seminars are at all useful in imparting knowledge huh?

I know you were being sarcastic about it being "motivational", but you obviously felt motivated by it,

It seems like standard motivational stuff to me.

"Share" "information" about some past problems, and you seem sincere. "Together we can pull through"

Right, and when some prospect asks "what about when this happened and the company did this?" - and you don't know about it. Knowledge about the past and future plans can indeed be motivational, but knowledge/training and motivation are not mutually exclusive arenas.

Again it sounds as if you pay to listen to propaganda. In reputable companies, company propaganda is freely distributed.

Amway pays for employee training for their employees. I am not an Amway employee. Amway does some product-oriented training for Amway business owners also, but like most franchise-like operations, the "franchisee" is responsible for the costs of running their business, including staff training.

I'm sure if I was running a corner store and bought a lot of my products from Coca-Cola, Coke would be happy to train me in their products. However, if I decided I wanted to expand and open a chain of corner stores and start employing staff or even franchising out "icerat's corner stores", Coca-Cola isn't going to pay to teach me how to do all of the things necessary to get it up and running and keep it up and running.