Multi-level Marketing - the way of credulous.

[The Atheist]

My all-time favourite business model - MLM.

What a crock of *****.

I have a list of people who have tried to sell me on Amway and other MLMs over the past 20+ years. I ring them up on their birthday to enquire as to why they're still working in dead-end jobs instead of sitting back and watching their "passive income" flows.

Not too many of them are amused by it, I can assure you!

Multi-level marketing is a rort of the lowest kind - a pyramid scheme dressed up as a genuine business. It came as no surprise to me to find that Amway finish their meetings with a prayer, or full church service, if there are enough attendees.

As far as Amway Inc is concerned, the business is a winner - there's no question that a significant amount of product is sold, but it's a poor means of involving oneself in business.

There are a wealth of genuine franchise ideas available for people who wish to be self-employed and some of them are very good businesses.

People joining MLM schemes are missing the number one rule of business - if it looks too good to be true - it is!

[quixotecoyote]

Yep. Primerica almost got me a few years ago with it's insurance MLM. Did a little digging and found that the people who didn't get poorer but wiser and leave quickly got trapped into a cultlike cycle of trying to recruit new members and exhausting themselves traveling to as many customers as possible, living in bunkhouse conditions, and never getting ahead. Every once in a while someone would break though and it was a quasi-religious faith that they would be next that kept the drones going.

[Wolfman]

Well, that's not entirely true. If you are one of the people at the top levels of an MLM, it can be very lucrative.

But yes...for the average person, all the figures and profits they dangle in front of you are pure illusion, based on assumptions that will never come true.

[The Atheist]

Every once in a while someone would break though and it was a quasi-religious faith that they would be next that kept the drones going.

Bingo. That's exactly how it works.

Well, that's not entirely true. If you are one of the people at the top levels of an MLM, it can be very lucrative.

But yes...for the average person, all the figures and profits they dangle in front of you are pure illusion, based on assumptions that will never come true.

As I said, it's profitable alright.

The trouble is that there's ever only the top layer makes any money and unless you're good mates with whoever's starting it all off, there's no show of making a living out of it.

[Wolfman]

For many years, Amway was illegal in China; a few years back, the Chinese gov't changed the laws to make it legal. One of my Chinese friends was one of the very first people to be an official Amway representative in China, and he truly stumbled upon a complete cash cow. There are now so many people in his network who are selling that he doesn't need to do a thing except sit back and collect his share of their sales.

Unfortunately, as these things go, stories about my friend and others who got in on Amway right at the beginning have fueled images of becoming independently wealthy by selling Amway; but the truth is, the market is so saturated that anyone who joins up now is gonna' be lucky to make enough money to even justify it as a part-time job.

My favorite version of the MLM is the scam email that says, "Send $5.00 to the five people who are listed below; then erase the top address, and add your address at the bottom; and send this email to 20 friends. Just figure it out! Within a short time, you could be receiving hundreds or even thousands of dollars!" It is really just a condensed form of MLM, albeit much more obvious. The sad thing is how many people still fall for it...if they fall for something this obvious, no wonder they fall for things like Amway.

[Miss Anthrope]

Oh yes, I remember the day my ex husband came home--the one who's so proud of his Mensa card--and told me he signed "us" up with Amway.

I wound up going to a few of the weekend conventions because it meant a hotel on the beach.

Needless to say, he never made "diamond". Of course he blamed my refusal to "work the business" with him for his very predictable failure.

Listening to all those motivational tapes in the car, dreaming and talking about the future....it was positively RELIGION for him!

[The Atheist]

Oh yes, I remember the day my ex husband came home--the one who's so proud of his Mensa card--and told me he signed "us" up with Amway.

Wow, that's most unusual - all of the people I've seen who have been sucked into the gaping maw have been of decidedly limited brainpower.

And he's your "ex"....

:bgrin:

[quixotecoyote]

Oh yes, I remember the day my ex husband came home--the one who's so proud of his Mensa card--and told me he signed "us" up with Amway.

I wound up going to a few of the weekend conventions because it meant a hotel on the beach.

Needless to say, he never made "diamond". Of course he blamed my refusal to "work the business" with him for his very predictable failure.

Listening to all those motivational tapes in the car, dreaming and talking about the future....it was positively RELIGION for him!


I'm in the process of moving, I think I threw out my last motivational Primerca cd. "The S Curve" pseudo-scientific economic BS used as a sermon.

[Miss Anthrope]

Wow, that's most unusual - all of the people I've seen who have been sucked into the gaping maw have been of decidedly limited brainpower.

And he's your "ex"....

:bgrin:

Brownie points noted and recorded ;)

I chalk it off to materialism and greed. Some kinds of intelligence don't seem to be assessed on IQ tests--he'd fail miserably in the common sense section.

[Wolfman]

I think this has more to do with personality than with intelligence.

There are simply those people out there who are always looking for "the easy way to make it big". They don't want to have to do all the groundwork and spend years slowly building it up; they want it all right now, and they know they deserve it, they could do it if someone would just give them the chance.

And then, presto, along comes someone who gives them that chance. "You don't need any previous experience, we'll give you everything you need to be successful right now!"

It doesn't matter if they're a genius or a moron; it appeals to all such people equally. In fact, it could appeal to the genius even more, because he knows he's smarter than the people who are doing this already. If they can make money at it, of course he can make even more!

[Miss Anthrope]

Brilliant, Wolfman. You're on a roll tonight!

[simonmaal]

I think this has more to do with personality than with intelligence.

There are simply those people out there who are always looking for "the easy way to make it big". They don't want to have to do all the groundwork and spend years slowly building it up; they want it all right now, and they know they deserve it, they could do it if someone would just give them the chance.

And then, presto, along comes someone who gives them that chance. "You don't need any previous experience, we'll give you everything you need to be successful right now!"

It doesn't matter if they're a genius or a moron; it appeals to all such people equally. In fact, it could appeal to the genius even more, because he knows he's smarter than the people who are doing this already. If they can make money at it, of course he can make even more!

Brilliant synposis, I like it! In other words, appeal to emotion tends to override the critical functioning of the intellect (and a high IQ is no better a defense than an average one). Which makes the psychological processes involved in these schemes very similar to those used in evangelism. It's little wonder they include church services in the system; probably helps them hone their techniques :p

Anyway, before I pick up that ball and run with it, back to topic. I was once sent an introductory CD for a company called Good Life or something (I must verify the name to avoid accusations of being woolly). I watched this mind-numbing, banal piece of marketing for a full 20 minutes in a vain attempt to discover what the product was. I got to the end of the presentation and I managed to work out that there was no product involved whatsoever! It was a pyramid scheme based on nothing other than fresh air!!! It was a way of passing on an increasing amount of debt to an increasing number of people.

[The Atheist]

It was a pyramid scheme based on nothing other than fresh air!!! It was a way of passing on an increasing amount of debt to an increasing number of people.

I've actually had the fortune to bust a couple of those. It was actually busting financial frauds which got me started on the whole asking questions bit.

Man, if want the BS to flow, show 'em the $$ signs!

[JonnyFive]

I think this has more to do with personality than with intelligence.

There are simply those people out there who are always looking for "the easy way to make it big". They don't want to have to do all the groundwork and spend years slowly building it up; they want it all right now, and they know they deserve it, they could do it if someone would just give them the chance.

And then, presto, along comes someone who gives them that chance. "You don't need any previous experience, we'll give you everything you need to be successful right now!"

It doesn't matter if they're a genius or a moron; it appeals to all such people equally. In fact, it could appeal to the genius even more, because he knows he's smarter than the people who are doing this already. If they can make money at it, of course he can make even more!

I know exactly what you're talking about. A couple years ago, when I was looking around for a new job after finishing school, I (for reasons that are not quite clear to me) considered working as a sales rep for Aflac. Now, Aflac is a legitimate insurance company, and not some MLM scam, but they use the same kind of approach to try to recruit you into their sales force.

Fortunately, I did my research into them, realized it was a much tougher sell than they make it sound (truth is, lots of insurance companies offer a similar product to Aflac), and there are a lot of issues with market saturation.

(Also, I realized I hate sales with a burning passion.)

[Victor Meldrew]

A different viewpoint from someone who actually makes money in an MLM business....

I agree with you totally about all the hype and ******** that surrounds MLM - 'get rich quick' ; 'anyone can do it'; 'I made a million pounds in 10 minutes!' ;'no sales skill required' etc etc - all utter bull. Makes me embarrassed to be involved with the industry.

But, just like there are some good franchise opportunities out there, there are some good MLM opportunities too - FOR THE RIGHT PEOPLE.

Many people who join an MLM company would not start a franchise - because they would have to make a serious time and monetary investment in the opportunity - so they would have to consider whether they really are capable of running their own businesses. Not so with MLM - websites and meetings promote money easily made, and the hype (and pressure of distributors already at the meeting) leads to people getting carried away and signing up. The feelgood factor may last for a few hours, a few days, often a few weeks, before reality hits.

Speaking from a personal basis, I joined an MLM company in March 2005 and worked the business hard for 6 months. Then I sat back.

I am still involved with the business, and still earn around £500/$1000 per month from it. For approximately 1 hours work per month.

The pertinent points to be mentioned are : I had already been involved in 2 other MLM opportunities (both went under - nothing to do with me - honest!) so I had experience in the field.

I was an experienced sales person already. (Most people who get sucked into MLM are told you don't need to sell, you just recommend products. Yeah, right.)

I had previously been self employed, so I knew that there was more to running a business than actually selling (or recommending) products. Things like marketing, time management, team management, finance control etc etc.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of MLM products are overpriced, making them difficult to sell, and I also have huge concerns about the validity of the claims of many of the products (magnetics, vitamin supplements etc).


Please note that Rule 10 for the public area requires that all swear words must be fully asterisked. (Edited to ensure compliance.)

[dudalb]

My Brother is a Sales Rep,and according to him any decent salesman would not look at a job and/or franchise unless it contained a exclusive territory clause.
Frankly,some MLM's are little better then Pyramid Schemes with just enough legal cover to avoid coming under the Anti Fraud laws.

[The Atheist]

(Also, I realized I hate sales with a burning passion.)

What do you do for a crust? I actually had you marked down as just the type to be a salesman!

I was an experienced sales person already. (Most people who get sucked into MLM are told you don't need to sell, you just recommend products. Yeah, right.)

You've hit the nail on the head there - a good salesman will succeed at MLM, just as a good salesman will succeed at any business reliant upon sales of product or service.

That's why I get asked so often to join these bloody rorts - I am a legendary salesman! (Not to be too guilty of hubris, but I do train people in selling and I've been acknowledged as being rather good at it.)

My Brother is a Sales Rep,and according to him any decent salesman would not look at a job and/or franchise unless it contained a exclusive territory clause.

Smart man.

Frankly,some MLM's are little better then Pyramid Schemes with just enough legal cover to avoid coming under the Anti Fraud laws.

I have a friend at the moment who is running one based on lotto tickets. I'm expecting to see him carted off in a black maria any day!

[JonnyFive]

What do you do for a crust? I actually had you marked down as just the type to be a salesman!

I'm an insurance underwriter, so I review loss experience, issue proposals for coverage, evaluate current business, write up insurance reports, etc.

It's an interesting job, and I enjoy it. Been back at school studying mathematics, so I hope to eventually move into actuarial science.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Did not Jesus comment on this?

. . . many are called, but few are chosen — Matthew 22:14, KJV

[The Atheist]

I'm an insurance underwriter,....

Well, I probably could've looked under your avatar and figured that!

LOL

Do you know RandFan? He's an insurance actuary, I think.

[The Atheist]

Did not Jesus comment on this?

:dl:

Entirely appropriate.

I was once under-privileged to have a watch an Amway meeting in Auckland unfolding - I was staying with one of the attendees. Seeing around 5000 of them turn out for the Sunday Amway Prayer MeetingTM was a highlight of my life!

[JonnyFive]

Well, I probably could've looked under your avatar and figured that!

LOL

Quite right, sir, quite right. :)

Do you know RandFan? He's an insurance actuary, I think.

I don't know him personally, no. I had no idea he was an actuary, that's excellent.

[SusanB-M1]

In the 70s, casting around for interesting things to do as a hobby outside of teaching, I looked at quite a few MLMs and was invited to a meeting or two. I was astonished to see how some of the people there did not see the obvious flaws and that they did not ask the questions I did. Never a sensible answer of course did I hear.

...Except in the case of Tupperware, however, and I did become a demonstrator.
- No initial money outlay was required and, although there was no gain until money taken exceeded cost of kit, that didn't take long.
- I made it clear that as soon as anyone tried to push me into doing more or persuading people to join, then I would go (and the manager I was with quickly realised I was worth keeping). If people asked me about joining, that was different.

I kept it as a hobby for a long time, thinking that I would do more when I retired, but then I had to give up driving and in fact of course Tupperware closed down in this country for several years.

[The Atheist]

...Except in the case of Tupperware, however, and I did become a demonstrator.
- No initial money outlay was required and, although there was no gain until money taken exceeded cost of kit, that didn't take long.
- I made it clear that as soon as anyone tried to push me into doing more or persuading people to join, then I would go (and the manager I was with quickly realised I was worth keeping). If people asked me about joining, that was different.

I kept it as a hobby for a long time, thinking that I would do more when I retired, but then I had to give up driving and in fact of course Tupperware closed down in this country for several years.

Ah! Tupperware parties! I'd clean forgotten about them. Avon Cosmetics used to do the same sort of thing - one of my sisters-in-law had an Avon business for years.

I guess they were the true forerunners of Amway, but as you say, they were a lot cleaner and with no upfront outlay required.

[RandFan]

Do you know RandFan? He's an insurance actuary, I think.And on that day it is said that RandFan's head grew three sizes. :D

Sorry, no, just a lowly insurance auditor and part time programmer.

[The Atheist]

Tell 'em I gave you a promotion. Don't forget to ask for more money.

[JonnyFive]

And on that day it is said that RandFan's head grew three sizes. :D

Sorry, no, just a lowly insurance auditor and part time programmer.

Ah, damn it, I was going to ask for advice on taking the SOA tests. :D

What lines of coverage do you work with, RandFan?

[Rob Lister]

Speaking from a personal basis, I joined an MLM company in March 2005 and worked the business hard for 6 months. Then I sat back.

I am still involved with the business, and still earn around £500/$1000 per month from it. For approximately 1 hours work per month.


Well, I won't say that I disbelieve your claim but I will say that I'm highly dubious of it -- I've know more than a few that made such claims falsely in trying to convince me to come in. In every case, bar none, they were lying.

Not saying you are.

...it could be that you got in on or near the ground floor of a particularly trendy new variant, and I know there really is money to be made at such levels. I personally find them unethical, but that's just me.

[Mycroft]

Oh yes, I remember the day my ex husband came home--the one who's so proud of his Mensa card--and told me he signed "us" up with Amway.

I wound up going to a few of the weekend conventions because it meant a hotel on the beach.

Needless to say, he never made "diamond". Of course he blamed my refusal to "work the business" with him for his very predictable failure.

Listening to all those motivational tapes in the car, dreaming and talking about the future....it was positively RELIGION for him!

The insidious thing about MLM is that people become convinced it is a pyramid scheme, which lends the whole idea credibility. Pyramid schemes do make money, unlike MLMs.

The real secret of the MLMs and how they make money is in those motivational tapes and weekend conventions. They cost money, and you buy them from your upline. You get recruited and told you're a sales force, but the hidden truth is you're really the market. The product isn't the cleaning products or the other nonsense from the catalogue, it's the motivational tapes, books, and weekend conventions.

[Rob Lister]

The insidious thing about MLM is that people become convinced it is a pyramid scheme, which lends the whole idea credibility. Pyramid schemes do make money, unlike MLMs.

The real secret of the MLMs and how they make money is in those motivational tapes and weekend conventions. They cost money, and you buy them from your upline. You get recruited and told you're a sales force, but the hidden truth is you're really the market. The product isn't the cleaning products or the other nonsense from the catalogue, it's the motivational tapes, books, and weekend conventions.

Bravo.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

One thing I really hate about my Sirius radio is all those MLM scam commercials and "lose weight with a cayenne pepper nose spray that also cures your sinus problems and will wash your dog"

That Bruce Berman needs to DIAF.

[JonnyFive]

One thing I really hate about my Sirius radio is all those MLM scam commercials and "lose weight with a cayenne pepper nose spray that also cures your sinus problems and will wash your dog"

That Bruce Berman needs to DIAF.

There are a ton of those things on regular radio too. A lot of "get rich quick with real estate," Bruce Berman crap, weight loss, herbal supplments for "natural male enhancement," etc. etc.

The Bruce Berman commercials are particularly rankling.

[juniper_ann]

I like cockeyed's take on the Herbalife MLM:
http://cockeyed.com/workfromhome/workfromhome.html

[Wirelight]

Great article. And yeah, them signs are everywhere here too.

[jimbob]

re: Miss Anthrope's posts, there is a British Army Saying that I can't repeat here except to refer to BBB, The last tow are "Baffles Brains", a corolory of this and Miss A's postis the reason that scammers, e.g. Yuri Geller* tend to like performing in front of scientists, and not magicians.

*(is that sort of language allowed under rule-8)

[firecoins]

People joining MLM schemes are missing the number one rule of business - if it looks too good to be true - it is!
thats the #1 rule of business? I thought it was to make more money than you spend.

[Bob Klase]

Originally Posted by The Atheist
People joining MLM schemes are missing the number one rule of business - if it looks too good to be true - it is!

thats the #1 rule of business? I thought it was to make more money than you spend.

You are correct. The "if it looks too good to be true" is the #1 rule of life, not business.

[Spindrift]

What I always found amazing is that those pitching Amway and Primerica always refuse to name the company they are pitching.

It's always a 'new business opportunity' or some such thing.

I've been trapped into Amway pitches by people I trusted twice. These were people whom I worked with previously and had discussed business ventures, so when they called I wasn't suspicious. The first person I let go through there spiel and told them I'd really have to think about it. The second one, I stopped immediately as soon as I figured out it was Amway. I basically forced her to admit it was Amway as her "upline" squirmed. I then got up from the table and said thanks, but no thanks. The "upline" started stammering, but I just ushered them out the door.

I have gotten several telephone pitches from someone selling Primerica, looking for "management". One time, I asked the guy where he got my phone number. He said the phone book, that's what they told him to do. I asked him what kind of business would use the phone book as list of leads, shouldn't they have a better way? He said, "I never thought of it that way." Then I asked, "How good of business could it be, if you're afraid to mention it's name?". He said, "That's kind of bothered me, too." We talked for a bit. Seems he was in his late fifties, had been laid off from some middle management job and had been out of work for quite some time. I told him it might be a good idea to try something new, but perhaps he should do a little more investigation before jumping at such "opportunities." He actually thanked me and he'd really have to re-think it. I just hope he had the courage to quit it before his upline really got to him.

[Deus Ex Machina]

What I always found amazing is that those pitching Amway and Primerica always refuse to name the company they are pitching.

It's always a 'new business opportunity' or some such thing.


The spouse of a co-worker tried to persuade me to come to "help him evaluate a business proposal". I had my suspicions about it simply because it was so vague and when I asked for clarification all I got was "come to the meeting". I did some checking around and found out is was Quixtar/Amway.


I've been trapped into Amway pitches by people I trusted twice. These were people whom I worked with previously and had discussed business ventures, so when they called I wasn't suspicious. The first person I let go through there spiel and told them I'd really have to think about it. The second one, I stopped immediately as soon as I figured out it was Amway. I basically forced her to admit it was Amway as her "upline" squirmed. I then got up from the table and said thanks, but no thanks. The "upline" started stammering, but I just ushered them out the door.


I never got to the meeting this jerk tried to con me into. I first of all braced him about the fact that far from wanting my "help to evaluate" he was trying to get me to sign up for something he had already joined. I asked him if this as the way he normally conducted himself? Lying to people? I am afraid I was a little nasty about it.

His wife (my co-worker) called me up at work the next day and she was a little shell shocked. After I had finished taking off a layer of her hide for daring to give me name to her husband for a "business venture" I then rubbed some salt into by repeating my statement that lying to people to get them to join something is the hallmark of a cult and that her husband was setting up to try and make his fortune with a company where he is afraid to say its name!


I have gotten several telephone pitches from someone selling Primerica, looking for "management". One time, I asked the guy where he got my phone number. He said the phone book, that's what they told him to do. I asked him what kind of business would use the phone book as list of leads, shouldn't they have a better way? He said, "I never thought of it that way." Then I asked, "How good of business could it be, if you're afraid to mention it's name?". He said, "That's kind of bothered me, too." We talked for a bit. Seems he was in his late fifties, had been laid off from some middle management job and had been out of work for quite some time. I told him it might be a good idea to try something new, but perhaps he should do a little more investigation before jumping at such "opportunities." He actually thanked me and he'd really have to re-think it. I just hope he had the courage to quit it before his upline really got to him.

I have never received a call from Primerica. But your approach sounds good to me!

[Ranillon]

Much of this sounds like just another manifestation of the modern cult of "Egalitarian Elitism" -- so common nowadays it seems -- that implicitly argues that somehow all of us can be the "big winner" despite the fact that by design the "system" (I use that term loosely) will only allow for a tiny minority of the super successful.

Needless to say, this myth/ideology tends to skew at that of people's attitudes concerning "success" -- as many of the examples above illustrate.

[Mycroft]

I've been trapped into Amway pitches by people I trusted twice. These were people whom I worked with previously and had discussed business ventures, so when they called I wasn't suspicious....

This has happened to me before, and I take it as an opportunity to talk people out of Amway. So far I've been able to convince two people to walk away.

My method is pretty simple. I walk them through the math.

1) I invite them to pick the product they feel is best and that they feel most comfortable selling.

2) Then I ask them how much money they want to make. Then I ask them to scale it back, how much money would they feel comfortable making?

3) Then we do the math. How much of product X do you have to sell to make that much money?

The result is always a huge amount of product, and they always respond with yeah, but you recruit all these people to sell for you, it's exponential...!, so you do the math again.

How much is your cut from what your recruits sell? How much does your downline have to sell for you to make the money you want? How much do they have to sell two levels removed? Three? The numbers just keep getting bigger and bigger, exponential goes both ways.

Then you come in with the killer questions:

How long have you been working at this? What are your sales so far? Extrapolate, if you've achieved that level of success so in the amount of time you've given it, at your current rate of growth, how long will it take to reach the level you feel comfortable with? (usually the answer is never, since they have yet to achieve any stable level of monthly sales)

How long has your up-line been working at this? What are his monthly sales? Extrapolate, how much longer does he have to work to grow his business before he reaches the level where you said you would feel comfortable? (Usually this drives home the point that his upline is a loser as well.)

If they're not completely demoralized by that point, then you start comparing their profits to their costs.

How much have you spent on this so far? You need to be probing here because they tend to downplay their expenses. You may need to remind them of books, CD's, seminars, gas, etc.

Then you ask them how much they have to sell of their favorite product before they reach their break-even point. Will they be buying more inspirational or promotional materials? (That's a tough question for them. They're drilled with the idea that if they want success they need the motivational tools for success, so it's hard for them to say they won't buy any more motivational materials, but when you lay out the math they can clearly see how far it sets them back from the benchmark of breaking even.)

If they're still not ready to quit, start calculating the amount of time they've spent on it and calculate their earnings as an hourly wage. How many hours a week do you spend on this? How many meetings do you attend? How long do they last? How much time do you spend trying to recruit friends and family?

If they try to low-ball you on the hours, comment that it doesn't seem like a very strong commitment to the program, they almost always up the estimate then. THen do the math, total profits so far divided by total number of hours. Ooh, that's not very much. You call yourself my friend trying to recruit me into this?! Then compare their earnings to minimum wage. Minimum wage starts to look pretty good in comparison.

[Geek Goddess]

I did some research on this, when a former co-worker's wife mentioned she sold Amway. (She wasn't trying to recruit me or anyone I knew). Although she was in her late 20s, she had been very active, and very aggressive, for quite a long time. She rented a warehouse to hold all her stock, expanded into selling pay phones to small business (for a share of the receipts), and so on. She would only recruit people who were as aggressive as she was.

My research on MLMs, in general, discussed that MLMs are often marketed toward blue-collar workers as a way to 'get rich like the other guys.' To the surprise of many (according to the articles I read, this was pre-Internet), the ones who tended to be more successful at actually making money in MLM were people like...doctors or other small-business entrepreneurs. The reasoning was that they generally had enough contacts, business associates, partners, and other ready-made customers to sustain a group and see a constant cash flow. In general, the average working-class American does not have sales experience or business savvy (that's most of us), to develop a business. That's why most of us tend to work for a salary or wages.

[Spindrift]

Just before I met my wife, good friends of hers got into Amway. They tried to recruit her, but all she did was buy some of their products. She said some of the things were pretty good. My wife wasn't going to sell the stuff herself, but she figured if it helped a friend and the stuff was decent then no big deal.

When my wife and I started dating and I met them, my wife told them in no uncertain terms that they were not to bring up their business. I think it had caused problems with a previous boyfriend.

Eventually, the subject did come up since it had become an integral part of their life, but to their credit (or fear of my wife's wrath) they never tried to recruit me directly. They talked about how they were planning to be at diamond or whatever level it's called within 5 years. At that point they could both go into semi-retirement and enjoy the good life. We've lost touch with them, but it's been almost 20 years and the last we heard they still hadn't reached their 5 year goal and they really work at it. The husband still has a full-time job, the wife spends her time dealing with the Amway stuff. They go to the conventions, buy all the tapes. Early on, I tried to get them to see the limitations but they were too invested emotionally, financially and I think spiritually as well.

I've often wondered if they put that much time and effort into another business that they could have been much better off.

[NobbyNobbs]

I couldn't tell you much about the Amway/Quixtar system, but I have used their products. Generally, they are quite good, if a bit expensive.

[Elind]

This has happened to me before, and I take it as an opportunity to talk people out of Amway. So far I've been able to convince two people to walk away.



So normally you deprogram people from what?:boggled:

[tube]

I've never posted in this sub-forum before, so perhaps the following anecdote is old news to some people.

Years ago, when I was a new homeowner, my neighbor asked me to help her move an unweildy mattress into her house. Her husband was unable to help, due to an injured foot. After the mattress was in place inside, the woman launched into a pitch for magnetic insoles. This was cringe-inducing, but I soldiered on, as I very much wanted to fulfill the image of the "good neighbor".

The pitch even included the old vaudeville stunt of holding your arm out, testing its strength, then applying the stimuli (in this case magnetic insoles) then finding your arm was "stronger" with the magnetic insoles.

Eventually I had to blurt out something to the effect of "is this some kind of multi-level marketing scheme?" To which she answered that it was not. However, it was clear from her pitch that it was.

This happened about a dozen years ago, but I seem to remember the company was called "Nikken". They do indeed sell magnetic insoles:

http://www.nikken.com/product.cfm?ThemeID=3&GetProductGroup=Magnetic%20Insoles

In searching the net for information, I came across this page from the Onion on magnetic insoles:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29554

[NewtonTrino]

All of the Amway kingpins make their money from the books, tapes (now cd's I guess) and seminars. In addition they get paid to give speeches at other organizations seminars.

How do I know this? I worked on some financial software used by some of these kingpin distributors and got to see some of the numbers. Stay far far away from these cults, you will only get burned. I know people who have been chasing "the dream" for close to 30 years without turning a profit.

The mind control aspect is not to be understated. The primary way they keep people in is brainwashing through the books and the tapes. People literally lose touch with reality. Even "IQ Smart" people can get involved and become brainwashed.

Scary scary stuff.

[Mycroft]

One of the amazing things about Amway and other MLMs is how often people get into it, lose money, fail miserably, yet still blame themselves and not the system for their failure.

It seems to be to be obvious that you just can't sell enough soap/toothpaste/whatever to your friends and family to support yourself, yet nobody seems to be able to see this basic flaw in MLM, and they continue to attribute their lack of success to personal failings.

[jimbob]

Because if the fault is with you then there is hope that the next round of motivational bumf would fix your finiancial woes, and incidently prove your worth as a human being for existing? you, and incidentially solve your financial woes, vindicating your decision?

[Elind]

Years ago, when job hunting, I got suckered into interviews with some of these. Primerica comes to mind. However I did see that there was nothing to sell, but more memberships and after 3 or 4 of these "meetings" I came to recognize the ads quite easily. In fact they seemed to have perhaps 25-50% of the job ads for a time when I was looking in the newspapers. I also listened to a few pitches at job fairs "Do you want to TAKE CONTROL of your life?" and similar BS.

Sad.

[jimbob]

Here (http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=8097), it is possible to conflate this with quackery...

Thanks to the Badscience "Sue the young homeopath", and veryscarymary threads

Hello,
I am a happy Homeopath who lives and works in Bath and this is a quick note for you! If you want to either set-up in practice or are already practicing as a Homeopath find out:
How to create a firm and long-lasting foundation for your business
How to let your practice serve you, rather than you serve your practice
The 6 steps you’ll need to take - to make a real difference
Who is the most important person for you to know in your business
The 5 factors that create an ideal strategy for you
How you can get maximum exposure with minimum expenditure
How to organise a constant supply of top quality enquiries for your services - and what you must do with them
...and much, much more!

Go to our website <You think i will help their google ratings?> for more details and make that VITAL shift now!

[pinoythinker]

Hello,

Recently I had one of these companies call me up about a job. From the get go i was already skeptical. First off i had never heard of this company and they dont really give details as to who they are. Said they would be dropping off a letter to explain benefits...."benefits?" i had not given any such info so more red lights went off.

So i get this letter talking about getting benefits through my "union" which cant possible since i am looking for work and never joined any unions. I kept the letter and looked at the company logo and looked at it and did a bit of research on the net and found out it was a scam. At the moment i cannot recall the company and i did keep the letter for a short bit (darn brain fart).

Amazes me what these supposed companies will try.

[Father Dagon]

Oh yes, I remember the day my ex husband came home--the one who's so proud of his Mensa card--and told me he signed "us" up with Amway.

I wound up going to a few of the weekend conventions because it meant a hotel on the beach.

Needless to say, he never made "diamond". Of course he blamed my refusal to "work the business" with him for his very predictable failure.

Listening to all those motivational tapes in the car, dreaming and talking about the future....it was positively RELIGION for him!Mensa, is that a club for retarded with numbers? ;) Nothing beats streetwiseness.

Almost 3 years ago, I was lured away to some Amway/Network-21 hullabaloo. I left after the break in the middle. It was the worst time of my life. My right and left brain hemispheres was raped from every direction. The speakers lashed out at the middlemens in the chain of trade. But don't have to tell companies that they can cut costs by eliminating a middleman.

It would've been amusing if I could see it on my teevee, but this was basically vampires on stage waiting to sic the zombies at me.

[six7s]

My favorite version of the MLM is the scam email that says, "Send $5.00 to the five people who are listed below; then erase the top address, and add your address at the bottom; and send this email to 20 friends. Just figure it out! Within a short time, you could be receiving hundreds or even thousands of dollars!" It is really just a condensed form of MLM, albeit much more obvious. The sad thing is how many people still fall for it...if they fall for something this obvious, no wonder they fall for things like Amway.

This just in, be quick!

The First Worthwhile Chain Letter

This chain letter was developed by virile men in order to make their sex life even more fantastic. As opposed to normal chain letters, this one costs nothing, and you can only win

Simply send this email to 9 of your best friends who are just as virile as you

Then…

Anaesthetise your wife/girlfriend


Put her in a large carton (don't forget some ventilation holes)



Send it to the person who is at the top of the list


Soon, your name will be at the top of the list and you will receive 2,093,429 women through the post!!!

Statistically among those women, will be at least:


0.5 Miss Worlds

15.5 models

247 wild nymphos

4,237 good-looking nymphos

65,326 who enjoy multiple orgasms

1,048,576 bi-sexual women

In total that is 1,118,402 women who are simply hornier, less inhibited, and tastier than the grumpy old bag you posted off

And, best of all, your original package is guaranteed not to be one of those that come back to you


! ! ! DO NOT BREAK THIS CHAIN LETTER ! ! !


One bloke for example who sent the letter to only 5 instead of 9 of his friends got his original bird back, still in the old dressing gown he sent her off in, with the same old migraine attack, and the accusatorial expression on her face

On the same day, the international supermodel he'd been living with since he sent off his old girlfriend moved out to live with his best friend (to whom he had not sent the chain letter)

While I am sending this letter, the bloke that is in 6th place above me has already received 837 women and is lying in hospital suffering from exhaustion. Outside his ward are 452 more packages

! ! ! YOU MUST BELIEVE THIS E-MAIL ! ! !

! ! ! THIS IS A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY ! ! !

! ! ! TO ACHIEVE A TOTALLY SATISFYING SEX-LIFE ! ! !


No expensive meals out



No lengthy conversations about trivialities (that only interest women) just so that you can sleep with her



No obligations


No grumpy mother-in-law



No unpleasant surprises like marriage or engagement



! ! ! DO NOT HESITATE! ! !

! ! ! SEND THIS LETTER TODAY TO 9 OF YOUR BEST FRIENDS ! ! !

P.S. This letter can also be copied to women you know so that they can prepare themselves for the great adventure that they may soon undertake

P.P.S. Must dash, the post has just arrived


"Send this letter today to 9 of your best friends" assumes you have nine... ;)

[Flo]

At the same time, I was sending this one:

This chain letter was started in hopes of bringing relief to other tired and discouraged women.

Unlike most chain letters, this one does not cost anything.

Just send a copy of this letter to five of your friends who are equally tired and discontented. Then bundle up your husband or boyfriend and send him to the woman whose name appears at the top of the list, and add your name to the bottom of the list. When your turn comes, you will receive 5,625 men. One of them is bound to be better than the one you already have.

At the writing of this letter, a friend of mine had already received 184 men, 4 of whom were worth keeping. They buried her yesterday, but it took three undertakers 36 hours to get the smile off her face.

REMEMBER -- this chain brings luck. One woman's pit bull died, and the next day she received an NFL offensive tackle. An unmarried woman living with her widowed mother was able to choose between an orthodontist and a successful gynecologist.

You can be lucky too, but DO NOT BREAK THE CHAIN!

One woman broke the chain, and got her own husband back again.

[Father Dagon]

Just recalled this: After the episode of getting my senses and sensibilites raeped, I did some research about Amway/Network-21. I found out that non-conformist churches have had problems with exactly those vampires. Not beacuse of their beliefs, but beacuse those churches are tightly knit communities where they share each others joys and sorrows and trust each other. Once you get a foothold in a small community like this, you can infect all the population pretty quick.

This is one reason why I shun friend-to-friend marketing ploys. I learned to know my friends through various long and spontaneous processes, nothing that no-one ever will exploit. Period.

[Tokenconservative]

My all-time favourite business model - MLM.

What a crock of *****.

I have a list of people who have tried to sell me on Amway and other MLMs over the past 20+ years. I ring them up on their birthday to enquire as to why they're still working in dead-end jobs instead of sitting back and watching their "passive income" flows.

Not too many of them are amused by it, I can assure you!

Multi-level marketing is a rort of the lowest kind - a pyramid scheme dressed up as a genuine business. It came as no surprise to me to find that Amway finish their meetings with a prayer, or full church service, if there are enough attendees.

As far as Amway Inc is concerned, the business is a winner - there's no question that a significant amount of product is sold, but it's a poor means of involving oneself in business.

There are a wealth of genuine franchise ideas available for people who wish to be self-employed and some of them are very good businesses.

People joining MLM schemes are missing the number one rule of business - if it looks too good to be true - it is!

Wow....and some people call me petty.

Actually, a fair number of Amway, Avon and Mary Kay sellers make a decent living at it.

A pyramid scheme typically involves no exchange of goods/services and a reliance entirely upon signing up new people to generate money for the few who start the thing.

Amway, Mary Kay, Avon, etc., all sell a product and all of them have large, very loyal customer bases.

My wife signed up for Avon to teach our kids a couple of things: how hard it is to make a living, how to run a business and how tough this kind of sales is. She has mabye a couple of dozen regular clients who buy PRODUCT from her. They have not signed up anyone else under them. There's no need to, if you don't want to.

No money has been made (mostly because the wife overestimated last summer's demand for a product Avon sells that actually repels mosquitoes), but none's been lost, either, and the kids have gotten a taste of business.

Not sure why this poster is so bitter, but then he probably hates the Church, too.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Hello,

Recently I had one of these companies call me up about a job. From the get go i was already skeptical. First off i had never heard of this company and they dont really give details as to who they are. Said they would be dropping off a letter to explain benefits...."benefits?" i had not given any such info so more red lights went off.

So i get this letter talking about getting benefits through my "union" which cant possible since i am looking for work and never joined any unions. I kept the letter and looked at the company logo and looked at it and did a bit of research on the net and found out it was a scam. At the moment i cannot recall the company and i did keep the letter for a short bit (darn brain fart).

Amazes me what these supposed companies will try.

They do tend to prey upon the down-on-their luck and suchlike.

Years ago I was looking for work w/out much luck and ran into this guy selling a series of kids books at a fair. The books we bought; they were pretty good, though the kids outgrew them long before they got through them.

He calls me up and flatters me, tells me I seem like a "smart young man," and would I like to meet and discuss a business idea he has (hey...sure, why not?). Turns out he's pushing some MLM...I didn't know whether to punch him or what.

In hindsight, I wish I had. Today, I'd have been able to afford the criminal and civil cases...not then, so it's probably good I did not.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Years ago, when job hunting, I got suckered into interviews with some of these. Primerica comes to mind. However I did see that there was nothing to sell, but more memberships and after 3 or 4 of these "meetings" I came to recognize the ads quite easily. In fact they seemed to have perhaps 25-50% of the job ads for a time when I was looking in the newspapers. I also listened to a few pitches at job fairs "Do you want to TAKE CONTROL of your life?" and similar BS.

Sad.

"Hey guys and gals! Want to have FUN while you work with other fun guys and gals!!? and make $5000, $10,000 even as much as $15,000 a week!?"

Sheesh. Yeah, I remember those ads. What about the employment agencies that have all those great jobs....well, not today...sorrry, the really good jobs went last week, but we do have this assembly line work for $3/hour....

If it sounds too good to be true....

[Rob Lister]

Wow....and some people call me petty.

Actually, a fair number of Amway, Avon and Mary Kay sellers make a decent living at it.

A pyramid scheme typically involves no exchange of goods/services and a reliance entirely upon signing up new people to generate money for the few who start the thing.

Amway, Mary Kay, Avon, etc., all sell a product and all of them have large, very loyal customer bases.



Tokie

I've never, ever met anyone that made a living selling amway products. I've never even met anyone that broke even selling amway products. I know of two people that made substantial green selling amway promotional talks and stratagies, but both of them are now bankrupt after having been sued for other less-than-savory business deals (but not, I admit, for their personal involvement in the amway scams).

Fact is, the only way to make money with amway is to admit to yourself that it is a losing proposition unless you can sell not the products, but the ideas.

what does that tell you? Doesn't matter. Believe what you want.

[Shrike]

Wow....and some people call me petty.

Actually, a fair number of Amway, Avon and Mary Kay sellers make a decent living at it.

A pyramid scheme typically involves no exchange of goods/services and a reliance entirely upon signing up new people to generate money for the few who start the thing.

Amway, Mary Kay, Avon, etc., all sell a product and all of them have large, very loyal customer bases.

My wife signed up for Avon to teach our kids a couple of things: how hard it is to make a living, how to run a business and how tough this kind of sales is. She has mabye a couple of dozen regular clients who buy PRODUCT from her. They have not signed up anyone else under them. There's no need to, if you don't want to.

No money has been made (mostly because the wife overestimated last summer's demand for a product Avon sells that actually repels mosquitoes), but none's been lost, either, and the kids have gotten a taste of business.

Not sure why this poster is so bitter, but then he probably hates the Church, too.

Tokie

They do tend to prey upon the down-on-their luck and suchlike.

Years ago I was looking for work w/out much luck and ran into this guy selling a series of kids books at a fair. The books we bought; they were pretty good, though the kids outgrew them long before they got through them.

He calls me up and flatters me, tells me I seem like a "smart young man," and would I like to meet and discuss a business idea he has (hey...sure, why not?). Turns out he's pushing some MLM...I didn't know whether to punch him or what.

In hindsight, I wish I had. Today, I'd have been able to afford the criminal and civil cases...not then, so it's probably good I did not.

Tokie

So, you want to punch people who want to involve you in MLM, but your wife is involved in them?
And no money has been made? How many hours of work has she done to make no money?
Granted, it's not a bad idea to show the kids how hard it is to make a living.

[Tokenconservative]

So, you want to punch people who want to involve you in MLM, but your wife is involved in them?
And no money has been made? How many hours of work has she done to make no money?
Granted, it's not a bad idea to show the kids how hard it is to make a living.

Here's something I've found useful and marvelously refreshing: read what a person actually says, not what it is you desperately WANT them to say.

I wanted to punch that guy, yes. Avon is not MLM as you think of it. It is a line of products (with something like 70 years behind it) that lots of people like and look for, many of whom thank my wife profusely because they have not been able to get it for x-number of weeks/months/years, etc.

That's what I said: no money made so far...did I say that she'd been doing this for 25 years or something? I don't think I did. It's been oh, maybe a year and a half, and the idea was to get the KIDS working at it to understand um...well, working.

I imagine YOUR kids understand: daddy writes us a check.

Well, mine have been taught something...different.

In a few years, when yours are working for mine, cleaning the toilets say at one of the 6-8 McDonald's they own, let me know how YOUR type of economics training worked out for them, k?

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

I've never, ever met anyone that made a living selling amway products. I've never even met anyone that broke even selling amway products. I know of two people that made substantial green selling amway promotional talks and stratagies, but both of them are now bankrupt after having been sued for other less-than-savory business deals (but not, I admit, for their personal involvement in the amway scams).

Fact is, the only way to make money with amway is to admit to yourself that it is a losing proposition unless you can sell not the products, but the ideas.

what does that tell you? Doesn't matter. Believe what you want.


I don't know much about Amway. Mary Kay and Avon provide nice extra $$-to- a good living for a number of folks.

You don't like that, rant away. Ignorance can be its own reward, I guess.

Tokie

[NobbyNobbs]

An illegal pyramid scheme typically involves no exchange of goods/services and a reliance entirely upon signing up new people to generate money for the few who start the thing.



Fixed.

It is true that Avon, Mary Kay, and Amway involve products. This does not mean they are not pyramid schemes. They are.

And the fact that they are pyramid schemes does not mean they are illegal. They are not.

And the fact that they are legal does not make them moral. This is up to the opinion of the individual.

Here's something I've found useful and marvelously refreshing: read what a person actually says, not what it is you desperately WANT them to say.

I wanted to punch that guy, yes. Avon is not MLM as you think of it.

http://www.npros.com/2006%5C4%5C19%5Cavon-stays-on-top-of-mlm-rankings/
Avon, Inc maintained the strongest online public interest for March on MLMRankings.com.

http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/avon.htm
Avoid falling for the semantic trap of chain-selling promoters who say they are not MLM, or multi-level marketing. If the program pays on more than one level of participants, it is multi-level or MLM.


http://sbinfocanada.about.com/cs/marketing/g/mlm.htm
Multilevel Marketing, or MLM, is a system for selling goods or services through a network of distributors.....Successful well-known MLM businesses include Mary Kay Cosmetics, Avon, and Tupperware.

http://mlm.business-opportunities.biz/2007/04/30/avon-targets-designer-fragrances/ (Note the name of the site: MLM Business Opportunities)

http://ezinearticles.com/?Double-Your-Earnings-From-MLM&id=73791
Network marketing, also known as multi level marketing (or MLM), comes in many forms. One of the most popular network marketing methods is selling by brochure, and one of the biggest companies using this method is Avon, the worldwide cosmetics company.


http://www.mlmwoman.com/issue4.htm
Lisa Wilbut has been selling and recruiting for Avon Products, Inc. for 14 years and is currently a Senior Executive Unit Leader in Avon's MLM program with 1995 downline retail sales topping $1.9 million.

So yes, Avon is an MLM as I think of it. Not that there's anything wrong with that. (By the way, Token, since you prefer one-to-one schooling, consider this an educational lesson. Above, you see the purpose and power of including links. They are so that you can back your opinions with actual facts. I'll bet if you used them more often, people might be more willing to concede points to you.)

I agree with the other poster's confusion, though. On the one hand, you wanted to punch a guy for trying to involve you in an MLM. On the other hand, your wife is already in one, ostensibly to teach the kids how to be in business. On the other hand (too many hands!), she's not making money from it. So the lesson is, you can't make money from being in business for yourself? Is that what you're attempting to teach?



In a few years, when yours are working for mine, cleaning the toilets say at one of the 6-8 McDonald's they own, let me know how YOUR type of economics training worked out for them, k?

Tokie

I'll support my kids, no matter what they decide to do, but I would hope they choose to affect the world more than just owning a fast food place. Is that the highest you can hope they would aspire? To serve fatty hamburgers and greasy fries?

[Shrike]

I wanted to punch that guy, yes. Avon is not MLM as you think of it. It is a line of products (with something like 70 years behind it) that lots of people like and look for, many of whom thank my wife profusely because they have not been able to get it for x-number of weeks/months/years, etc.


So how is it MLM? Or is it a pyramid scheme? Why did you want to punch somebody for trying to involve you in a MLM, yet you know support your wife when she is involved in a MLM?

Here's something I've found useful and marvelously refreshing: read what a person actually says, not what it is you desperately WANT them to say.

I have, and I don't have anything I want you to say, let alone desperately. I saw too different viewpoints expressed by you in two consecutive posts, therefore I asked you a question.
About reading what a person actually said:

Granted, it's not a bad idea to show the kids how hard it is to make a living.

Combine this with:

I imagine YOUR kids understand: daddy writes us a check.

First: how do you know if I have any kids? You're not a stalker, are you? I have, but at this moment they're too young to understand the concept of money.
Why do you imagine I write them a check? How have you concluded this from three sentences?

In a few years, when yours are working for mine, cleaning the toilets say at one of the 6-8 McDonald's they own, let me know how YOUR type of economics training worked out for them, k?

So, you'll be happy when your kids are working for McDonalds? As the previous poster said, I'll support my children whatever they do, but I hope they make a better contribution to this world than keeping people fat.
And then again:
About reading what a person actually said:

Granted, it's not a bad idea to show the kids how hard it is to make a living.

This is actually some sort of compliment.

Avon is not MLM as you think of it. It is a line of products (with something like 70 years behind it) that lots of people like and look for, many of whom thank my wife profusely because they have not been able to get it for x-number of weeks/months/years, etc.

That's what I said: no money made so far...did I say that she'd been doing this for 25 years or something? I don't think I did. It's been oh, maybe a year and a half, and the idea was to get the KIDS working at it to understand um...well, working.



OK, well, let us know when money starts coming in.

[NoZed Avenger]

I've never posted in this sub-forum before, so perhaps the following anecdote is old news to some people.

Years ago, when I was a new homeowner, my neighbor asked me to help her move an unweildy mattress into her house. Her husband was unable to help, due to an injured foot. After the mattress was in place inside, the woman launched into a pitch for magnetic insoles. This was cringe-inducing, but I soldiered on, as I very much wanted to fulfill the image of the "good neighbor".

The pitch even included the old vaudeville stunt of holding your arm out, testing its strength, then applying the stimuli (in this case magnetic insoles) then finding your arm was "stronger" with the magnetic insoles.



It's a pity those insoles don't work on injured feet.

[sgf8]

Need some advise from you wise ones.

Short story: next door neighbor keeps inviting us to learn about a company dealing with communications and Donald Thrump. Red Flags are at full mask for me, but my boyfriend insists that these are good people whom we will be living next door to for years and ect ect. I avoided one "meeting" but tonight I knew I had to get it over with.

Took my older son and boyfriend and wasted over an hour of my life. It was horrible, but I knew that in the end I would be able to teach my family what to avoid and how they are MLM.

The company is ACN and I don't need advise on this specific company, cause it took me only about 5 minutes to locate the anti-ACN site on the Internet. Thanks also to "the skeptic guide to the universe" episode that I just happened to listen to last week.

The advise I need concerns my neighbor. I know she is just starting in this (two weeks) and I know she has paid her $499 already. I doubt that even if she wanted out they would give her back her money.

I want to be a good neighbor, and by trying to recruit me I feel she has struck the first arrow. BUT I know she is in that la la la element that she does not know that she is doing harm to her friendships.

I could approach her and give her the website that I found the anti-ACN info at, or I could simply tell her that it is a MLM and why I know that. She is all excited about attending the functions (one is tomorrow morning).

Or I could, just avoid her and not mention it again. She should fail at this within a couple months and probably will be so embarrassed that she will never mention it.

If she should persist and try and pressure me, I would feel no qualms about telling her what she has gotten involved in.

But should I approach her and hope to save her now before she wastes more time and money? Guess this is my real question.

She isn't exactly a friend, but my next-door neighbor that I really like and want to keep great relations with for years. If she finds out later that I knew it was a scam all along and didn't tell her then she will probably be upset.

I don't know what to do. I feel like I should just let it happen, and avoid her until the scam has run its course and sucked her dry.

Advise please

Susan

[sgf8]

And BTW Avon is NOT a MLM.

My mother sold it for more than 20 years and they do not fit the characteristics that are defined on the http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/ site.

They do not want to over saturate the market with sales people. They do not spend time recruiting people to sell. You are never promised you will make large sums of money. They simply sell product, and lots of it. You do buy a kit but that only makes sense with a company like this, you need bags and sales booklets ect...

Susan

[SusanB-M1]

It is difficult to give advice on this of course, but I think I would say something like this: 'Although I am not interested in joining you in this venture, I do wish you luck of course. I do most strongly advise that you check out all aspects of the way the company works, both for and against and, most importantly, if you do decide to give it a go, keep a very close check on the amount of money you pay out, how long it is taking you to recoup that money and whether, during the first year, you find that the effort you put in has been worth it.' And I suppose you could add something on the lines of, 'If I can help with advice and the things I know about Avon*, I would be happy to help...'


All said in a warm, friendly, smiley sort of way!
*And, having been a Tupperware Demonstrator for years, I will happily contribute comments too. I did it as a hobby - not to make money, but I certainly never lost money on it.

I shall be interested to read other posters' responses here.

[sgf8]

It is difficult to give advice on this of course, but I think I would say something like this: 'Although I am not interested in joining you in this venture, I do wish you luck of course. I do most strongly advise that you check out all aspects of the way the company works, both for and against and, most importantly, if you do decide to give it a go, keep a very close check on the amount of money you pay out, how long it is taking you to recoup that money and whether, during the first year, you find that the effort you put in has been worth it.' And I suppose you could add something on the lines of, 'If I can help with advice and the things I know about Avon*, I would be happy to help...'


If she were to ask if I were interested I suppose your response is the nicest one. I think if she asks I will probably come straight out and tell her that she is involved in a MLM company. I can give her the web site and tell her that it is okay, lots of intelligent people fall for MLM's.

I haven't seen her since that last night, I don't want to say anything to her first about the "class" because she may have already gotten out of it. I would think it takes longer to realize what happened, like 2 months. If she is out, she is going to be very embarrassed, I will just be friendly and say Hello when I see her, this would let her know that I'm not holding any grudge.


If she comes after me in a aggressive manner then all bets for niceness are off.

Susan

[skepticalbeliever]

There was this big scam back in highschool where this company was trying to get people to promote an internet service via MLM. I remember people paying 1 grand to obtain a licence to do sales pitches for this internet company. I forgot what it was, but I remember being told how much money I could make by doing it.

I wish I could remember the name of the company.

[sgf8]

There was this big scam back in highschool where this company was trying to get people to promote an internet service via MLM. I remember people paying 1 grand to obtain a licence to do sales pitches for this internet company. I forgot what it was, but I remember being told how much money I could make by doing it.


It was Google


seriously don't we all wish we had got in at the beginning of Google? I could have possibly worked for them, though I don't have the tech skills but I live about 45 minutes away from them. Heck, I would have done housekeeping chores and taken a cut in pay to have received some stock.

That was a very big deal out here about 10+ years ago. Companies looked like they could be the next Apple or Microsoft.

I was talking about MLM to my kids, and I can't think of any that market to the young adult. Guess they want to wait until you have some money before they offer you a job opportunity. Hummm

Susan

[SoBitter]

A friend of mine is an "Independent Associate" for Pre-paid Legal. We've been trying to tell him it's a scam since he started it, maybe 3 years ago, but he insists it's legit. The funny part of it is that not only are they scamming the people who work for them, but they don't even sell a product. They sell the availability of legal help should you need it in the future, and I don't know if they even come through with that.

He's still working at an automotive shop 3 years later, so it's not making him that much money. I think MLM especially targets people who aren't familiar with common American business procedure, for example, immigrants. It seems like a lot of people I've come in contact with who fall for it grew up in other countries.

[sgf8]

My city is full of immigrants, the only thing I have heard of them falling for are one deal scams like the lottery one. My good friend who is from Mexico sold water filters when he first immigrated. But though a difficult thing to sell it wasn't a scam (?).

I would think that immigrants would be easy to recruit as they have been told that America is the land of opportunity and American's will buy anything. BUT immigrants like teens may be gullible but they lack the important element of income and savings.

The few people I know who are/were sucked in MLM are all Americans.

Susan

[Whack01]

Years ago, when job hunting, I got suckered into interviews with some of these. Primerica comes to mind. However I did see that there was nothing to sell, but more memberships and after 3 or 4 of these "meetings" I came to recognize the ads quite easily. In fact they seemed to have perhaps 25-50% of the job ads for a time when I was looking in the newspapers. I also listened to a few pitches at job fairs "Do you want to TAKE CONTROL of your life?" and similar BS.

Sad.

I went to one of their meetings. Best presentation in a can I've ever heard, and I got a free meal. I gotta say though, folks really ought to stay away from it in my opinion. If anyone is interested in it, I'd recommend doing a google search for "primerica fraud".

just a few quick points for the unwary

-> Do not give out contact info for your references, especially if they hand you a clipboard. They ask this so that they can do a "warm" sell if you don't sign up. (maybe even if you do)

-> If there are 200,000 sales reps and 10,000 reps making over $60,000 a year this does not mean you have a 5% chance to succede. Why? Because if you boast 200k sales reps the year prior, 210k sales reps in the current year and 200k new sales reps this year, then your chances are 10,000 in 410,000 not 10,000 in 210,000 because all the new hires from last year have already quit.

-> The sales presentation is scripted, you will be invited to a more detailed meeting on the weekend most likely. This is standard operating procedure and not unique to you.

-> they will likely try to sell themselves as doing good, if you go deep enough into this to actually bother learning about their pricing do yourself a favor and compare their interest rates to their competitors.

[streetsmart1980]

Has anyone here ever heard of Melaleuca, it's an mlm as well. It sounded like the best one I had ever heard of so I went to check it out. I had a little bit of experience with these types of systems, I had gone to a few meetings about Excel (phone service which went bankrupt) and Qixtar (which is Amway in disguise) a few years ago and definately had my suspicions. I have a friend who was part of Mangosteen (which is supposed to be some sort of wonderjuice) and that sounded like complete garbage.

Anyway here are some things they told me at Melaleuca. "We have a 94% retention rate". Well they make you sign up for a 'backup order' so if you forget to order one month they will charge you and send you another package. Also that number refers to their month to month retention, but they present it like it is a lifetime retention. Also you have to cancel at just the right time, or else they will just send you that backup order which conveniently helps their retention statistics. My friend had a prepaid credit card and just decided to let his money run out and figured that would cancel the subscription, but they sent him a package anyway, although he didn't pay for it and they told him he was in debt to them and they wound't cancel his account till he paid. I told him to demand his money back and ship that garbage back to the sender. They said they would give him his money back. Great.

They say that you get 7% of everyone's shopping dollars that joins under you, which sounds reasonable, but then you learn that you only get 7% of their points which is worth only like 50 cents on the dollar or less.

The products cost like double as much as the products would be at the grocery store. They say it is healthier and more environmentally friendly, but I was incapable of verifying that in any way. It is just a clever pyramid scheme. Give me $10 for a $5 bottle of shampoo. Why not just skip the shampoo and give you $5. Oh right and if that is not bad enough they charge you processing fees and 'Shipping and Handling'. When I go to Walmart they don't charge me 'S&H', it's included in the price.

Then they say, this is the best, that even if you join and buy your products and don't really recruit anyone you can still 'make it'. If the person that signed you up, signs another person up, they can put them under you in the pyramid. That way they get 7% and you get 7% and you don't have to do anything. But here is the kicker, they won't give you access to all the commissions under you unless you recruit like at least 7 committed people or more, I forget.

It really was amazing to check out. Most people don't have the tenacity or research skills to ask questions or think about this stuff. I found it difficult myself, but these people are praying on the type of people who would go to the casinos or buy the lottery. It is sad.

I had the privledge of meeting some very successfull Melaleuca MLM people who made like 3 million with it. I asked them these questions and they wanted to know what I did for a living. I was going to tell them dramatically that I was an 'Exorcist' but decided to tell them I was a Hitman. They laughed and I began to ask them if their products had any Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O) in it. They assured me that none of their products did and they were 'super healthy'. It was great fun. Hope that amuses some of you. I got some of that from Penn and Tellers episodes.

[JonnyFive]

(snip)

I had the privledge of meeting some very successfull Melaleuca MLM people who made like 3 million with it. I asked them these questions and they wanted to know what I did for a living. I was going to tell them dramatically that I was an 'Exorcist' but decided to tell them I was a Hitman. They laughed and I began to ask them if their products had any Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O) in it. They assured me that none of their products did and they were 'super healthy'. It was great fun. Hope that amuses some of you. I got some of that from Penn and Tellers episodes.

That's good and all, but the joke is "dihydrogen oxide" (H2O).

Hydrogen Peroxide is H2O2 and is different than water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide). Also, hydrogen peroxide has very strong oxidizing properties and would really mess you up at a sufficiently high concentration. It's used to bleach stuff.

Anyway, welcome to the forums. Glad you didn't fall for the whole MLM trap.

[Francesca R]

That's good and all, but the joke is "dihydrogen oxide" (H2O).

Hydrogen Peroxide is H2O2 and is different than water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide). Also, hydrogen peroxide has very strong oxidizing properties and would really mess you up at a sufficiently high concentration. It's used to bleach stuff.Kudos Jonnyfive, I should have been quicker on the draw and got to that one myself. I so rarely get the chance to put my chemistry BSc to practical use these days. :)

[sgf8]

Then they say, this is the best, that even if you join and buy your products and don't really recruit anyone you can still 'make it'. If the person that signed you up, signs another person up, they can put them under you in the pyramid. That way they get 7% and you get 7% and you don't have to do anything. But here is the kicker, they won't give you access to all the commissions under you unless you recruit like at least 7 committed people or more, I forget.

I suppose they don't mention the word "pyramid" do they?

BTW Welcome to the forum, thanks for a well thought out well written first post.

Susan

[JonnyFive]

Kudos Jonnyfive, I should have been quicker on the draw and got to that one myself. I so rarely get the chance to put my chemistry BSc to practical use these days. :)

I have been known to pick nits, from time to time. :D

Edit: By that way, I didn't mean to come across as a pedantic ass. It was a good first post, and he did a good job of analyzing the truth behind the claims made by that particular MLM group. They like the shout out statistics about how great everything is, but those rarely hold up under scrutiny.

[Francesca R]

Oh sure I'd add my welcome and fine post--making one's first post in this section is a good sign. (It didn't exist when I joined) :)

[James Fox]

Oh sure I'd add my welcome and fine post--making one's first post in this section is a good sign. (It didn't exist when I joined) :)

I second the good first post. And Francesca... rockin new animation!

Just got back from lunch where a coupe for friends and I were talking about a couple we all know and like…. except that they’ve been AmWay zombies for about seventeen years; which means they have been responsible for “extorting” money from the gullible and uninformed again and again. When they first asked started talking to us about “their business” we knew the buzz words and quickly said no and never again. There was no more closeness or dinners together after that incident seventeen years ago and I later learned that AmWay folk are to avoid and disassociate from negative people. All that to say that while AmWay is known to be a fraud, the level of manipulation is insidious and damages friendships along with bank accounts.

[sgf8]

damages friendships along with bank accounts.

That is the really sad part. Once these people open their eyes to the fact that they have scammed all their friends and relatives do they go back and apologize or move far far away?

I have only waved at my neighbors who made us attend their "opportunity" to join ACN. I talked to another neighbor who went to the first meeting and she said that she knew it was an MLM scam within a few minutes of their speech. We compared notes and she thought that the video phone was included in the $499 they ask for. I told her that I didn't think so, they never mentioned it. What she didn't understand but I cleared up for her, was that the phone was never what was for sale. They gave us a sales pitch but it had nothing to do with a video phone or changing your phone service.

So now the neighbors are talking, and who knows what this will do to our friendly neighborhood. We all try to get together a few times a year. Now until I know they are MLM free I don't think I will invite them over.

Do you think people recover and understand that they have been had, or do you think they just kinda let it go as wasted money and don't think much about the friends they lost? Kinda depends on their personality I think. Does anyone have any experience with recovering MLM's?

Susan

[sgf8]

damages friendships along with bank accounts.

That is the really sad part. Once these people open their eyes to the fact that they have scammed all their friends and relatives do they go back and apologize or move far far away?

I have only waved at my neighbors who made us attend their "opportunity" to join ACN. I talked to another neighbor who went to the first meeting and she said that she knew it was an MLM scam within a few minutes of their speech. We compared notes and she thought that the video phone was included in the $499 they ask for. I told her that I didn't think so, they never mentioned it. What she didn't understand but I cleared up for her, was that the phone was never what was for sale. They gave us a sales pitch but it had nothing to do with a video phone or changing your phone service.

So now the neighbors are talking, and who knows what this will do to our friendly neighborhood. We all try to get together a few times a year. Now until I know they are MLM free I don't think I will invite them over.

Do you think people recover and understand that they have been had, or do you think they just kinda let it go as wasted money and don't think much about the friends they lost? Kinda depends on their personality I think. Does anyone have any experience with recovering MLM's?

Susan

[sgf8]

Thinking about it, it is important for MLM's to be shown the light of day. Because this is an Educational Foundation and there are probably 50 lurkers to every post I want to be clear what I experienced and thought. Maybe someone will be helped?

So here is my story....skip if you are already familiar of how this works. My thoughts are in red. Sorry so long...

Neighbor invites us over, my boyfriend tells me we are going, I say what for and what is it. He said they only told us it was something to do with Donald Trump and communications. I managed to avoid this meeting. First red flag, they do not tell the name of the company but when you go to meeting they mention the company about 100 times. So they know the name but don't want to tell you in advance because you may research them. Amway does this exact thing, they even use another name. My ex-employee who started to get involved in Amway did this exact thing, she would not tell me the company name until I asked her if it was Amway, I asked her why aren't you concerned to be linked to a company that is afraid of people knowing its name? She said she was told not to say it because they have had a bad rep in the past and are trying to fix it, most people will not listen to what you have to say if they find out its Amway. I said, "so they ask you up front to be dishonest to your friends and family, if they are such a great company then they should be proud of their name."

Two weeks later they again approached my boyfriend and said that they are having another meeting and would we please attend. I knew we could not avoid this, and I also knew that this MUST be a MLM because they were so persistent, and did not approach me (who is much more skeptic with my opinions) Also again they would not tell him the company name or what it was for.

They had munchies, and chairs all seated around the TV, a computer was set up and a woman was trying to get a video phone connected to the Internet (at least that is what it looked like, these neighbors have Comcast cable with DSL as I do so I know they have no internet problems) It was a real friendly room, I was so upset that I was dragged to this, my boyfriend would not believe me when I told him it will be a MLM, he said that we HAVE to go because they are good neighbors, and they have come over to see my mom late at night (they are nurses). I told him that being good neighbors I will have a hard time ever speaking to them again if it is a MLM and it would be best not to go. But he never thinks I am right, so for peaces sake we went.

In a way I am very glad I went, my son learned a lot about MLM, and I had never seen this first hand. It is amazing how closely it fit with the generic MLM scam listed on the Internet. You could almost tick it off a check list. Now I am telling just about anyone who will listen what these things are and how you can be sure, almost none of my friends have every heard of Amway. One employee told me, Susan, those things are for the Duh Duh Duh people....you know....people who don't get it. So she was on it, the only person I have talked to that was aware of pyramid scams. Another employee has never heard of the Nigerian scams and she is 21, and uses the Internet. So if you wonder how it is possible for people to fall for this, then believe me, lots of people have never heard of it.

They introduced everyone one other person that I knew from a Spanish class, and a neighbor came later (whom was ostracized for being late) My boyfriend, myself and my 20 year old son Caspian were there also.

There were two people from the company there to "help" one woman was ex-military and said she wanted to spend time with her children, the man who was above her used to work for Kaiser (a local hospital). My friend and her husband both RN's (my next door neighbors). My friend had been recruited by the military woman (only with the company a month or two) and the military woman was recruited by the Kaiser man (working for 2-3 years for ACN)

They kept talking up my neighbor, her leadership qualities, how they just knew she was going to go far in the company, would start making real money real soon, lots of clapping. Each time one of them spoke and the next one got up to speak they would clap and hug each other. I wonder if the whole meeting was to really get my neighbor into it, they appealed to her so many times that I kinda think she was the real target. They clapped and hugged, the audience just looked at them. Really strange feeling, we were so quiet and they were so rehearsed.

The "product" the video phone was just sitting on a counter and they would point to it from time to time. No mention of the price, what it included, service...nothing Classic sign you are involved in a MLM. The product they are selling is not the object they are pointing to, the product they are selling is the opportunity for you to become a seller. Big red flag here...at a candle party they try to get you to buy candles, they tell you the price, they hand them around, they talk about how great they are, they try to close on the sale, and at the very end they try to get you to book a party. MLM's are only interested in you, they don't know you at all, but somehow they just know that you are going to be PERFECT to work for this company. They also don't worry about how many people are selling the "product" in a area, you would think that if the video phone was important then if half of the people in my neighborhood were selling it then maybe that is too many people in one area? Nope, they are upfront about this, they don't care.

They showed us a video of healthy, very happy, very rich looking people talking about how this company has changed their lives for the better. Everything in the video looked rich, the backgrounds, golf courses, hotels, vacations, some might have been in the background quietly, but they were there. This is also a big red flag, the product is not mentioned, only that you will be rich and be able to quit your job. Someone about 20+ years ago gave an employee a cassette (audio only, thats how far back I am talking) and all it had on it were people telling us how happy they were. Noting about the product at all. (remember, the job is the product).

They kept referring to a magazine "Success Magazine" they had two new looking copies that also showed their lifestyle. They said that these were magazines you could buy anywhere. I though it was odd that I had never heard of this magazine, and why would a magazine devote almost the whole issue to one company? Caspian researched this magazine and found out that they are MLM friendly. Probably ACN purchased the right to be in this magazine that month. Amway is next month (or some other MLM) This makes the company look more legit very flashy and rich looking mag.

Donald Trump was mentioned a lot, at least 25 times. He endorses this company and was even on the video. I have never liked this man. So his endorsement did nothing for me, he has always been on the fringe as far as I'm concerned. I hope that they take him down for his support of MLM's but somehow I don't think that will happen. He is too slippery!

The man who was senior kept talking about his past job and how now he can spend time helping out his mom with her bills. He mentioned how happy he was and how he is so busy helping others start their own business. He kept talking about residuals, and to explain that word to us he used the Elvis empire, and how Elvis is dead but he still earns money. When we join ACN we will earn money even after we choose to leave. Now what kind of job would do that. The anti-pyramid site I found said that most people will who change their service will change it back to what it was before after two months because the service is awful and you will end up paying more not less. Also the web site said that you do not get residuals until you have recruited 20 people (I think that was the number). The money isn't in the residuals it is in the sign up fees.

They gave us a flow chart to explain everything (but it was kinda confusing so of course you don't want to ask questions about what you are looking at because he just finished explaining that the paper was easy to understand, so who wants to look stupid?) Really who does? This is why more than 95% of people (some number like that) people don't complain because they don't want to look like they were stupid falling for this scam.

They explain that you will get people to change their phone carriers through ACN, not sure how this works but they said that they work though main carriers, like Sprint (?). I guess they would call Sprint and say you are now their customer and with their special ACN discount we would get lower bills but still be a customer of Sprint. They could do cell phones, and LAN lines as well as Internet connections. They had some kind of point value (not very important, just there to confuse us). Where we were supposed to get the money as commission from was every time people paid their bills we would get a small residual. Even if we quit the company we would get paid. He again said that his mother had had the same phone company for something like 30 years and people don't change their service. His poor mother, most of us like our mothers and so we sympathies with helping out our mothers. Surprised he didn't mention college education for our children and puppies and kittens.

They never gave us a chance to ask questions, but told us there were three kinds of people, those that wanted to sign up right away, those that had more kinds of questions but were still interested, and those that aren't interested right now. They did say that this is NOT a pyramid scam, and he was skeptical at first, but now he is sold on it. They only want 499 to sign us up for this opportunity, a small enough number to just slap on a credit card and we will get that money back in a few weeks. 499 is exactly what he said, the word dollars was no where near that sentence. Very old sales trick, 499 sounds closer to 400. Only when he said "put it on a credit card" did it hit me that he was talking about $499.00 and not $4.99.

They gave us blank employment applications that included a space for our social security number and said that we didn't need to fill it out right that moment, just fill out the top part, name and SS# and phone number. Hum

They wanted us to now gather around the computer (this was after an hour of listening) and they were going to show us something to do with the cell phones, we would have an opportunity to change our service at that time.

I stood up as if I were going around the computer then said, "is that the time? I still have to go grocery shopping, thanks Chrissy, bye!" My family followed us out, my boyfriend said, "thanks for inviting us, bye." And we were out the door and in front of our computers in minutes, I found a critical web site in minutes. My boyfriend looked up all the video ACN phones for sale on E-bay they also link to some critical and pro sites for ACN. Caspian looked up the "Success Magazine."

We had tons of knowledge in about 10 minutes. Which makes you wonder how is it possible for computer literate people to be sucked into this kind of thing? I had a ex-employee who was introduced to Amway, I asked her years ago if she had tried to do any research on this company? She said that she had on the Internet but that she thought that they were just disgruntled and had the rare bad experience. That is why with MLM and woo we need to speak out. Get this info onto the Internet and to our friends and family, teach them the warning signs and red flags. The next scam might be totally different, but in my experience, they follow a pattern, which is why I explained my thoughts through out the process.

Thinking about it again after writing this post, I think this man wanted us to leave as quickly as possible without asking questions (which he would have done one-on-one not in the group) I think he had made up his mind about my group right away and was hoping to get the woman I know from Spanish class, and to re-enforce my neighbor's involvement. So when we left so quickly without any questions he was probably relieved.

My boyfriend and son said that they wanted to ask questions about the numbers and the companies status on the stock exchange (public or private) and other questions hoping to trick them up. I explained that the person would answer their question with whatever he made up at that moment. You would have no way of checking until you had gone home and then you would never see them again. You need to remember that these people are going to lie right to your face, whatever needs to be said to sign you up and get your 499 they will say.

They also talked a lot about attending a big meeting the next day. They really wanted everyone to attend because it would answer a lot of our questions. It would jazz us up as well, with very happy "cultish" people. Some CPA who is very high up in the company was doing everyone the favor of attending.

Sorry again this post was so long, but I didn't want to leave anything out. The experience I went through seems so typical of most MLM's. People searching for some info on this topic may venture here and find some help for those about to take the plunge. I have no advise for someone involved. My ex-employee who was starting to get involved in Amway was barely at the beginning. When I asked her the questions that I did, she left in a huff. She said she would go home and order her own products and not worry about letting us earn money also, she was only trying to help us. The next day, she called me and apologized, realized that I was right, re-looked at the Internet and said she hopes that she will find a legit company just like this one so her and her husband could retire.

Susan

[The Atheist]

Sorry again this post was so long, but I didn't want to leave anything out.

Don't be sorry at all - excellent post. If you save one person from listening to the two hours of babble these people usually come out with, you've already done the world a favour.

[JonnyFive]

sgf8, that was a very detailed and thoughtful analysis of the MLM sales pitch. It's definitely a good rundown of the various techniques used to pitch the membership in the "business opportunity" over the product(s) they claim to be selling.

You know, I think I'll nominate you for the language award. :)

[sgf8]

Wow!

[roger]

Wow!If you think that is exciting, I have a great deal for you. For only $199 I can get you nominated for the language award weekly. All you have to do is start selling language award nominations distributorships. This is really awesome because even if you leave the forum you will still get money from all the new people joining the distributorship. As we all know, winning the TLA is a lofty goal most hanker for, but never achieve. This program will make it a reality for everyone. Don't delay, because by tomorrow somebody else may have already bought your distributorship. I just know you are a perfect fit for my company. Join now!

[JonnyFive]

If you think that is exciting, I have a great deal for you. For only $199 I can get you nominated for the language award weekly. All you have to do is start selling language award nominations distributorships. This is really awesome because even if you leave the forum you will still get money from all the new people joining the distributorship. As we all know, winning the TLA is a lofty goal most hanker for, but never achieve. This program will make it a reality for everyone. Don't delay, because by tomorrow somebody else may have already bought your distributorship. I just know you are a perfect fit for my company. Join now!

Don't believe his lies! He's just out to scam you.

I can set you up as an officially licensed Language Award nomination distributorship for only $99*.







*Plus one-time $100 processing charge.

[Tanstaafl]

There was this big scam back in highschool where this company was trying to get people to promote an internet service via MLM. I remember people paying 1 grand to obtain a licence to do sales pitches for this internet company. I forgot what it was, but I remember being told how much money I could make by doing it.

I wish I could remember the name of the company.


Could that have been DotPlanet?

It sounds like their style, although I didn't think it was that expensive to get into it.

[sgf8]

If you think that is exciting, I have a great deal for you. For only $199 I can get you nominated for the language award weekly. All you have to do is start selling language award nominations distributorships. This is really awesome because even if you leave the forum you will still get money from all the new people joining the distributorship. As we all know, winning the TLA is a lofty goal most hanker for, but never achieve. This program will make it a reality for everyone. Don't delay, because by tomorrow somebody else may have already bought your distributorship. I just know you are a perfect fit for my company. Join now!

Ahhhh....can I put it on a credit card?

Don't believe his lies! He's just out to scam you.

I can set you up as an officially licensed Language Award nomination distributorship for only $99*.







*Plus one-time $100 processing charge.

But he seems so nice! And the processing charge is only one-time?

Susan

[JonnyFive]

Ahhhh....can I put it on a credit card?



But he seems so nice! And the processing charge is only one-time?

Susan

How silly of me, I forgot my standard legal boilerplate you can safely ignore.

Terms and/or conditions may apply at the point of sale or receipt of product. No guarantees or warantees, express or implied, are included in the purchase of this product. Product purchase is considered an employment contract in the states of Alabama, New York, Kentucky, and Connecticut. Product purchase is considered a gambling venture in the states of California, Alaska, Florida, and Massachusetts. The term "one-time" refers to a monthly charge with a sixteen-year contract. All terms are final, legally binding, and non-negotiable. By reading this paragraph you absolve GlobalSolutionsForU, Inc. of any and all legal liability for all possible outcomes of your purchase transaction including but not limited to loss of income, loss of real property, sweaty palms, dry mouth, telemarketing calls, and death.

Don't let this offer pass you by! :D

[sgf8]

Terms and/or conditions may apply at the point of sale or receipt of product. No guarantees or warantees, express or implied, are included in the purchase of this product. Product purchase is considered an employment contract in the states of Alabama, New York, Kentucky, and Connecticut. Product purchase is considered a gambling venture in the states of California, Alaska, Florida, and Massachusetts. The term "one-time" refers to a monthly charge with a sixteen-year contract. All terms are final, legally binding, and non-negotiable. By reading this paragraph you absolve GlobalSolutionsForU, Inc. of any and all legal liability for all possible outcomes of your purchase transaction including but not limited to loss of income, loss of real property, sweaty palms, dry mouth, telemarketing calls, and death.

But I don't want sweaty palms or dry mouth! Good thing I'm in CA at least it is a gamble for me.

On another note, my neighbor just yelled over the fence at my boyfriend, "guess what I just got my video phone working" He asked her how much she paid for it, and she said, $164.00 (so the phone isn't in the 499 price). My boyfriend said he saw lots of ACN phones on e-bay for under $100. (So she got had again) She only responded by telling him that she was having another "meeting" this Friday night. He said, "great, gotta go now, have a nice day."

I am giving her 2 months to let this run its course. It's been about a month. Ahhhhh she is here right now, she doesn't know I am sitting on the other side of the door he is talking to her while he is working on the door. Hee hee hee. She just asked him if he would like to go to a meeting with her tomorrow night, so he can see the "bigger picture" He told her he has other plans, so she said "Okay, I'll see you Friday night then." No question mark on the end of that. My boyfriend is sooo nice. If she had seen me sitting here I guess I would just have to tell her. "Chrissy, you are involved with a MLM company, (can't quite figure out how to finish that sentence....little help here.....)

Feels stupid to hide from people we have been friendly with for a couple years. It all sounds good on paper, but how do you deal with these people in person?

Susan

[The Atheist]

Feels stupid to hide from people we have been friendly with for a couple years. It all sounds good on paper, but how do you deal with these people in person?

You can't.

It's no coincidence that Amway run church services at their meetings which are conducted by fundy pastors. The [lack of] intelligence, personality and originality shown by converts to MLM mirrors that of fundamental christians and the chances of change are about the same. In reality, I've found MLM converts harder to deal with than fundies; at least fundies will just put you down as being possessed by Satan and leave you alone. MLM converts just will not shut up and avoidance becomes the only cure.

[sgf8]

You can't.

It's no coincidence that Amway run church services at their meetings which are conducted by fundy pastors. The [lack of] intelligence, personality and originality shown by converts to MLM mirrors that of fundamental christians and the chances of change are about the same. In reality, I've found MLM converts harder to deal with than fundies; at least fundies will just put you down as being possessed by Satan and leave you alone. MLM converts just will not shut up and avoidance becomes the only cure.

You know this is just so sad. I don't want to believe that this is a whole change of mindset for these people. I want to think that in a couple weeks to a month they will just say, "boy were we stupid" and go on with life.

I don't want to think they have gone all fundie on me! We have such a nice neighborhood, I wanted to bar-b-que with them and other people. And they are such nice people, they have a really nice cat too....

Do I just sound too pitiful? Whose going to tell me, "Face it Susan, this is real life, get over it, you have lost your neighbors, and the ability to play Frisbee in the front yards and garden for hours when the neighbors are home."

Susan

[The Atheist]

You know this is just so sad. I don't want to believe that this is a whole change of mindset for these people. I want to think that in a couple weeks to a month they will just say, "boy were we stupid" and go on with life.

I bet that happens occasionally, but just for a laugh I phoned up a bloke recently who tried to get me on the Amway bandwagon 10 or 12 years ago. At that time, he was going to be a millionaire in 10 years' time with a passive income of hundreds of thousands a year.

When I rang him, he was still in the same dead-end job and was still drawing circles every second night.

Do I just sound too pitiful?

Yes.

Face it Susan, this is real life, get over it, you have lost your neighbors, and the ability to play Frisbee in the front yards and garden for hours when the neighbors are home.

[JonnyFive]

Face it Susan, this is real life, get over it, you have lost your neighbors, and the ability to play Frisbee in the front yards and garden for hours when the neighbors are home.

It may suck mightily, but he's got a point. Something about the MLM scams has a very powerful hold over people. They may get bored and stop soon, or they may stop when they've lost a bit of money or decide it's not a good business model. Hopefully they aren't so into the MLM pitch that they drag their finances and personal lives down into the hole for it, but only time will tell.

There is something addictive to some people about the whole MLM myth. All the statistics and facts in the world can't stop the belief that their system is not a scam like those others and they will make it big. It strikes me as similar to how gambling addicts seem to view their habit.

[Tanstaafl]

It really disturbs me how many friendships are destroyed and families torn apart due to the greed of those running these scams. They seem to teach their converts to harrass the people closest to them. I've seen it a couple of times first-hand, and it's really sad.

[sgf8]

I bet that happens occasionally, but just for a laugh I phoned up a bloke recently who tried to get me on the Amway bandwagon 10 or 12 years ago. At that time, he was going to be a millionaire in 10 year