Massive blowout with the wife tonight over homeopathy!

[JordyT]

Oh, man.. tensions are HIGH tonight folks. I've waited a while to go on the offensive and the opportunity arose for a homeopathy smack down. Now there is the sound of silence and the wife isn't speaking to me. Maybe I got through to her just a little but she is stubborn and a die hard 'believer' in this BS. I was well prepared, calm and unloaded the truth for about an hour. In the end though it's the same crap. Her position is "It works for me and the only thing stupid would be for me to not take something that works". My position is people using this stuff are being swindled and 200 studies prove it's BS (hell Weleda turned over 200million euros last year, an assload of cash and mysteriously their shareholders forbid real clinical trials - i wonder why!). It's all insane, I feel like I must deprogram her and save her from this alt. medicine BS, sorry I can't stop saying BS it's such just so utterly appropriate. but am likely fighting a lost cause my friends and that is depressing, maybe i should take some noxdepressisum 500c to feel better or maybe i just need some rescue remedy? O_o

If this stuff was 50cents a bottle who gives a toss but at $9 a bottle I can't contain myself. To make matters worse I'm watching Richard Dawkins enemies of Reason documentary and she can hear it, she must think he's the anti-christ (Dawkins just slammed the astrologer). So to cap it off:

1.) It works for me so I'll use it
2.) explain how my horse got well after taking (insert name)50c
3.) there is a lot science can't prove, therefore homeopathy is beyond current science

help!!!

[Normal Dude]

Dude, you have some work on your hands. Have you tried compiling a list of respectable organizations, preferably organizations that she has a high opinion of, speaking about homeopathy?

Best of luck.

[Zep]

Ummm... Rabbetting on for an hour isn't going to help, dude. It's the couch for you tonight!

Can I suggest you make her a simple bet? If she can tell her remedies from plain tap water (assuming it is a water remedy) then you do the washing-up for [one week|one month|one year] (circle one). If she cannot, she has to explain why that was the case. My guess is she will bet she can do this.

The trick is, she is going to do this comparison blinded. Whenever she needs a remedy, you will supply it to her. But there will be two sets of remedies, identically labelled - one set that is plain water, the other is "the real stuff". And you get to flip a coin and use that to choose which set the remedy will come from, but she is not allowed to know before using the remedy. (If it were double blind, someone else would do the flipping and selecting for you.) Then just ask her to note if the remedy "worked" or not, and see how she goes over a week or two (or some set period). Keep a diary...

Alternatively, one day when she is not about the house, pour the contents of the remedies down the drain and replace them with boiled tap water. Then see how long she takes to notice. I'm guessing she never will! But if she ever finds out you did that...:scarper:

Or be even crueler to yourself - tell her you did indeed replace them with water, but not actually touch the remedies at all. Then see if they suddenly fail to work!

Either way, the results will be "spectacular"!

[Dr Adequate]

Oh, man.. tensions are HIGH tonight folks. I've waited a while to go on the offensive and the opportunity arose for a homeopathy smack down. Now there is the sound of silence and the wife isn't speaking to me. Maybe I got through to her just a little but she is stubborn and a die hard 'believer' in this BS. I was well prepared, calm and unloaded the truth for about an hour. In the end though it's the same crap. Her position is "It works for me and the only thing stupid would be for me to not take something that works". Every time I feel ill, I lie in bed smoking cigarettes --- and I always get better.

It works for me, so it would be stupid not to do it.

Tell her about my alternative system of medicine. For an extra $50, I'll sell her a mantra.

[Mojo]

2.) explain how my horse got well after taking (insert name)50c

See: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=90097

[pauldmin]

I would use a simple test.

Get some homeopathic sleeping pills and also some stimulants.

Get her to try each one out to verify that they work ( un-blinded ).

Then pick a random pill and get her to work out which one it is by the effects.

This should highlight the placebo effect quite nicely.

[tkingdoll]

She won't learn anything if you lecture, nag or otherwise have a go.

The only way for her to change her opinion is for her reason it out herself. Then she's losing less face.

But to do this she needs to know exactly what homeopaths claim. Ask her questions in a non-aggressive manner.

The questions can either be to point out the silliness of homeopathy, or to get her to see it in context. Examples:

Did you know you can buy homeopathic remedies with 'essence of Berlin Wall' in them?

If I put an aspirin into the ocean, stirred it up, and drank a few drops of the ocean water, would it cure my headache? If not, why not? Homeopathy 'works' on this principle.

If water has memory, how does it know which molecules to remember and which to reject? If homeopathy was true, then the water would remember every piece of poo it ever got flushed over, surely?

Homeopaths routinely claim that a remedy is only effective when prescribed by a homeopath. How does the remedy know when it has been prescribed or not?

Did you know you can buy 'blank' homeopathic tablets and simply put them in a bottle with one 'containing' the remedy? The full one will then 'transfer' its power to the blanks, and you have a full bottle again. How does this work?

There's nothing harder than letting go of a dearly-held belief, especially when it comes to one's health.

Of course, the tempting reply to 'it always works for me' is 'then perhaps there's nothing wrong with you in the first place. Imaginary cures for imaginary ailments, no wonder they work'.

*ducks*

[Mojo]

Homeopaths routinely claim that a remedy is only effective when prescribed by a homeopath. How does the remedy know when it has been prescribed or not?


How do the ones you pick up off a shelf and pay for at a checkout in Boots work then?

[tkingdoll]

How do the ones you pick up off a shelf and pay for at a checkout in Boots work then?

Like all things homeopathic, it depends which homeopath you ask, of course ;)

They have to protect their income somehow. I don't think all homeopaths make the 'it has to be prescribed' claim, but I've read it in plenty of places and it's not an uncommon assertion.

I can't really blame them though, they have scant other reason to keep people going back to them. If was a homeopath I'd make this claim too, it's no more stupid and implausible than the rest of it and might stop my patients going to Boots.

[zooloo]

I like the "I replaced your homeo stuff with water"

A an out-and-out falsehood is my favourite, don't do anything just say you did it a few weeks ago, or long enough that a good few doses have "relieved/cured" whatever it's for.

[tkingdoll]

I like the "I replaced your homeo stuff with water"

A an out-and-out falsehood is my favourite, don't do anything just say you did it a few weeks ago, or long enough that a good few doses have "relieved/cured" whatever it's for.

But that doesn't prove anything. To actually make the point you have to test the claim. And you're talking about someone's health here. Yes, the ailments may be imaginary (I'm assuming if she was really ill then she'd need proper medical attention so this would be a different debate), but Jordy's wife will not take kindly to the idea that her husband is gambling with her wellbeing.

Plus it's a tad silly to counter the lies of homeopaths with lies of your own, no? If we want to claim ethical high ground we should act accordingly.

[Mojo]

Like all things homeopathic, it depends which homeopath you ask, of course ;)

They have to protect their income somehow. I don't think all homeopaths make the 'it has to be prescribed' claim, but I've read it in plenty of places and it's not an uncommon assertion.

I can't really blame them though, they have scant other reason to keep people going back to them. If was a homeopath I'd make this claim too, it's no more stupid and implausible than the rest of it and might stop my patients going to Boots.


Actually, "it has to be prescribed by a homoeopath" is usually invoked as an excuse for homoeopathy failing randomised double blind tests. Individualisation and all that.

The problem there is that in double blind tests of individualised remedies, prescribed by a homoeopath, it has still failed.

See, for example, White et al., Individualised homeopathy as an adjunct in the treatment of childhood asthma: a randomised placebo controlled trial (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=12668794&ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum).

[Zep]

Sorta agree, Teek, but what she needs is a jolt to her thinking-in-a-rut. The conversation could go something like this:

A: Darling, you know those homeopathic remedies we fought over?
B: Yeeees?
A: Well, please don't kill me, but a few weeks ago I replaced the headache one with plain tap water.
B: WHAT!!!
A: So that big headache it cured? It was all in your head.
B: YOU BASTARD!
A: Not really. Just a little joke! :)
B: Why, if I EVER catch you doing that... :mad:
A: Of course not, dear. I would never do that to your headache remedy.
B: I should hope not!
A: Of course, your cough relief one is different.
B: C'MERE!
A: Yes, I left that alone too.
B: :mad: :mad:
A: Or did I... Yes, I'm sure it wasn't that one... I think...
B: <is now in a state of confusion as to which ones, if any, have been tampered with, and so has doubts about them all>

[Senex]

This is a difficult situation. I've had discussions with two different people recently and made no headway. A friend of my mom won't take real thyroid medicine despite real thyroid medicine having no side effects. She does this despite her husband being on dialysis because he waited too long to seek real medicine for a kidney problem.

A wife of a friend buys "electric" water. It comes in a box of 100 carefully packaged small eyedroppers and is very expensive. I kid you not, she believes it can cure everything from alzheimers to Parkinsons. These are two professional college educated women who have no other eccentric beliefs but homeopathy. When the argument gets to a certain level they will just say that science hasn't progressed far enough to explain why it works -- but it works. They get a bit edgy just discussing the topic because they know they are defending magic -- but I feel it my duty to try because I can piss them off a little not having to live with them or interact as often as others who might be unnerved.

[H3LL]

Step one, for me would be to ask her to explain how she thinks it works, and what she knows about its history, preparation, selection etc

There's more, but that approach may work (although she's so mad at you now you will probably get little response).

I my experience most ordinary people assume that homeopathy is similar to herbal remedies and are unaware of the difference. (i.e. zero active ingredients in homeopathy).

The more "educated" ones think it is similar to vaccination or immunisation (like cures like).

Failing that prepare her homeopathic meals and hot drinks.

Preparing a homeopathic coffee, with her helping, at 100c should be pretty convincing :D

Careful though, you may accidentally prepare a potent sleeping draught...Hehehehh!

.

[tkingdoll]

Actually, "it has to be prescribed by a homoeopath" is usually invoked as an excuse for homoeopathy failing randomised double blind tests. Individualisation and all that.



Tough luck on them. They've said it, they can't unsay it.

That's the problem with non-regulated stuff like this, its practitioners can make any old nutball claims and they apply to the whole lot.

You don't get many GPs prescribing aspirin for acne.

[tkingdoll]

Sorta agree, Teek, but what she needs is a jolt to her thinking-in-a-rut. The conversation could go something like this:

A: Darling, you know those homeopathic remedies we fought over?
B: Yeeees?
A: Well, please don't kill me, but a few weeks ago I replaced the headache one with plain tap water.
B: WHAT!!!
A: So that big headache it cured? It was all in your head.
B: YOU BASTARD!
A: Not really. Just a little joke! :)
B: Why, if I EVER catch you doing that... :mad:
A: Of course not, dear. I would never do that to your headache remedy.
B: I should hope not!
A: Of course, your cough relief one is different.
B: C'MERE!
A: Yes, I left that alone too.
B: :mad: :mad:
A: Or did I... Yes, I'm sure it wasn't that one... I think...
B: <is now in a state of confusion as to which ones, if any, have been tampered with, and so has doubts about them all>

Nah. She believes it's medicine. Replace 'the headache one' with 'your insulin' and you'll see what I mean. I can't imagine any response other than "how dare you play god with my health? Are you out of your mind?".

Besides, the post I was responding to was suggesting not actually replacing them with water, but just pretending to.

Telling her you've done it is risky enough. Telling her you've done it when you haven't is plain silly.

[Goshawk]

I see some people here who know lots and lots about debunking homeopathy--but who don't know much about making a marriage work. From the viewpoint of someone who just celebrated her 33rd wedding anniversary, allow me to expound.

It's all about compromise, and kindness. You compromise on the things that aren't life-threatening--which this isn't, I'm assuming, or else you would have said so in your OP--and throughout, you proceed with kindness.

And being in-your-face, lecturing-for-a-solid-hour confrontational about it, or demanding, yes, demanding, that she allow you to prove to her that her remedies are useless, or secretly pouring out her stuff and then going "nyah, nyah" at her when you decide to reveal the truth, or even just pretending to have poured out her stuff and replaced it with water--those are all unkind. Tricking someone is unkind. Yelling at someone is unkind. Getting in their face about something harmless that they happen to enjoy is unkind--does she get in your face about your occasional beer out with the guys, or about all those carcinogens that your well-charred BBQ beef is producing?

If your wife had cancer, and was insisting on useless alternative medicine for it, that would be one thing. But what harm does it do to let her have her little bottle of HeadOn, or Similisan, or whatever it is. Sure, it's BS, and sure, somebody somewhere is raking in the cash hand over fist...

BUT...

... but in making any friendship work (and marriage IS a friendship), you normally have to make allowances for the other person's strange foibles and quirks. Maybe he firmly believes that the Gray Men are watching his house, or maybe he refuses to let anyone tell him that the Cubs will never win another World Series. Whatever it is, if you want to keep him as a friend, you overlook his little oddities.

And...he, for his part, overlooks yours. Yes, my friend, it's a two-way street here. What little quirks and foibles do YOU have that drive your wife nuts, eh? ;)

Let her have her woo. It's not hurting anything, and it's sure going to drive a pretty solid rift between the two of you, and it will be your fault, because you're the one who has decided to make an issue of it, who just can't let it go.

Besides, haven't you ever heard, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"? Confronting her angrily, lecturing her, will only make her feel more defensive than ever about it. The reply, "It works for me" is already defensive; you've already got her on the defensive. She hears what you're saying, but has decided to ignore it, but isn't secure enough about it to simply shrug and tell you vigorously to go jump in the lake, she feels a need to justify it, and herself, to you, by saying defensively, "It works for me".

And you're not going to get any farther than that for now. Let it go.

[Zep]

Hey, Gos - I was only joking! I have the same situation with a sister-in-law I'm fond of. She is a lovely person, but this adherence to homeopathy and other woo beliefs (Chinese "mystical" coins, etc) is strongly held. I have made it known to her gently that I'm certain she is being fooled end-to-end by these people for money, and is putting her young son's health at risk through them. However the boy is usually VERY healthy (what 6yo isn't bouncing about usually!) so it makes no appreciable difference really if he is fed aspirin or homeo drops for his pains. So she knows I disapprove of it, but that's as far as I will go.

[Zep]

Nah. She believes it's medicine. Replace 'the headache one' with 'your insulin' and you'll see what I mean. I can't imagine any response other than "how dare you play god with my health? Are you out of your mind?".

Besides, the post I was responding to was suggesting not actually replacing them with water, but just pretending to.

Telling her you've done it is risky enough. Telling her you've done it when you haven't is plain silly.Seriously, I agree (you couldn't tell I wrote a spoof?). But the point I was trying to make was there...hopefully.

I have had more success with asking people to explain to me what they think "homeopathy" actually is, then challenging them to look it up on the young people's interweb to confirm it. A few have got back to me to ask if what is there is true, and I usually confirm that what they found are the facts as we know it today. Which means they are thinking about it actively... So I have planted the seeds of doubt deeply.

The best way to proceed with this sort of conversion, I feel, is indeed to raise sufficient doubts to cause the proponents to question it themselves, not try to lecture the point until they submit. Because any lesson is learned much better when you do the research yourself, rather than having it hammered into you.

[qayak]

D.I.V.O.R.C.E

[PBTree]

Let her have her woo. It's not hurting anything, and it's sure going to drive a pretty solid rift between the two of you, and it will be your fault, because you're the one who has decided to make an issue of it, who just can't let it go.

Don't let her have this woo if you are going to have children (or have them). Your wife will be with your children for a lot longer than you will be during their informative years and they will be brainwashed just like she has been. More addled brains for the charlatans to prosper from.

If water has memory, how does it know which molecules to remember and which to reject? If homeopathy was true, then the water would remember every piece of poo it ever got flushed over, surely?


I think this analogy is the way to go. Ask her why drinking water doesn't taste like it? She must have some idea. Using her thinking, the old adage of "never eat yellow snow" wouldn't mean a thing because we are all doing it anyway, everytime we have a drink of water.

sheesh, wondered what that was in the coffee last night.

[PBTree]

I see some people here who know lots and lots about debunking homeopathy--but who don't know much about making a marriage work. From the viewpoint of someone who just celebrated her 33rd wedding anniversary, allow me to expound.

It's all about compromise, and kindness. You compromise on the things that aren't life-threatening--which this isn't, I'm assuming, or else you would have said so in your OP--and throughout, you proceed with kindness.

And being in-your-face, lecturing-for-a-solid-hour confrontational about it, or demanding, yes, demanding, that she allow you to prove to her that her remedies are useless, or secretly pouring out her stuff and then going "nyah, nyah" at her when you decide to reveal the truth, or even just pretending to have poured out her stuff and replaced it with water--those are all unkind. Tricking someone is unkind. Yelling at someone is unkind. Getting in their face about something harmless that they happen to enjoy is unkind--does she get in your face about your occasional beer out with the guys, or about all those carcinogens that your well-charred BBQ beef is producing?

If your wife had cancer, and was insisting on useless alternative medicine for it, that would be one thing. But what harm does it do to let her have her little bottle of HeadOn, or Similisan, or whatever it is. Sure, it's BS, and sure, somebody somewhere is raking in the cash hand over fist...

BUT...

... but in making any friendship work (and marriage IS a friendship), you normally have to make allowances for the other person's strange foibles and quirks. Maybe he firmly believes that the Gray Men are watching his house, or maybe he refuses to let anyone tell him that the Cubs will never win another World Series. Whatever it is, if you want to keep him as a friend, you overlook his little oddities.

And...he, for his part, overlooks yours. Yes, my friend, it's a two-way street here. What little quirks and foibles do YOU have that drive your wife nuts, eh? ;)

Let her have her woo. It's not hurting anything, and it's sure going to drive a pretty solid rift between the two of you, and it will be your fault, because you're the one who has decided to make an issue of it, who just can't let it go.

Besides, haven't you ever heard, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"? Confronting her angrily, lecturing her, will only make her feel more defensive than ever about it. The reply, "It works for me" is already defensive; you've already got her on the defensive. She hears what you're saying, but has decided to ignore it, but isn't secure enough about it to simply shrug and tell you vigorously to go jump in the lake, she feels a need to justify it, and herself, to you, by saying defensively, "It works for me".

And you're not going to get any farther than that for now. Let it go.

Not sure how you survive Gos but congratulations anyway. I have been married 35 years and quite happy thanks but if my wife ever saw me taking this homeopathic nonsense, she would tell me and vice versa. We would both appreciate the fact that we care enough to tell each other knowing there may be consequences. Compromise is fine but kindness (not all medicine tastes nice) is better.

Using your plan, how much of a little bit of woo, is harmless, Can she just take some homeopathic stuff and thats ok, or can she add a little bit of palmistry. Maybe just one call to a person like sylvia to see if she knows whats wrong with her. How about she tie some red string around her wrist, that might help. Is this still harmless. Next thing you know, you have a fullblown nutter in your house.

This sort of nonsense is the same as everything that is harmful in big doses. Nip it in the bud in the early stages and you don't have problems. let it go and it grows and grows.

Get her off this rubbish.

[BoogieWoogieWookie]

Having never purchased, or even seen, a homeopathic 'remedy', I must ask if it's possible to simply replace it with water? Are these actually made with water or is some other inert solvent used? If water, is there flavoring, color, etc. used?

[schlitt]

Having never purchased, or even seen, a homeopathic 'remedy', I must ask if it's possible to simply replace it with water? Are these actually made with water or is some other inert solvent used? If water, is there flavoring, color, etc. used?

Good point.

Unfortunately i had to take thousands of doses of homeopathic remedies growing up, as my mother is a beleiver.
The solutions taste very strongly of alcohol, if it were replaced with water it would be immediately detectable.

[Zep]

They can be water drops, alcohol drops, or a tiny sugar pillule.

The alcohol is usually ethanol, and often not very pure.

[Rolfe]

Purer than Rustum Roy's ethanol blank, however!

Rolfe.

[Zep]

Purer than Rustum Roy's ethanol blank, however!

Rolfe.Whatever makes you think Rustum's "ethanol" sample wasn't collected after a hard Saturday night at the Duck And Drake? Or should that be the Cock And Bull? ;)

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I'm with Zep. Do a blinded experiment.

~~ Paul

[Goshawk]

Using your plan, how much of a little bit of woo, is harmless, Can she just take some homeopathic stuff and thats ok, or can she add a little bit of palmistry. Maybe just one call to a person like sylvia to see if she knows whats wrong with her. How about she tie some red string around her wrist, that might help. Is this still harmless. Next thing you know, you have a fullblown nutter in your house.

This sort of nonsense is the same as everything that is harmful in big doses. Nip it in the bud in the early stages and you don't have problems. let it go and it grows and grows.

Get her off this rubbish.



Well, see, the problem is, how far are you going to go to define "rubbish"? Because I see a place for "religion" on your continuum there. Are you going to allow her to worship at the Baptist church, but not to tie a red string around her wrist, or to use HeadOn for her headaches? They're equally unprovable as remedies in terms of skepticism and (quote unquote) "Science". So where are you going to draw the line?

And what's the difference, in terms of child-raising, between a mom who teaches her children, "God exists", and a mom who teaches her children, "Tying a red string around your wrist works"?

"Belief" can potentially be a powerful force for good, is what I'm saying, and I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater when you say that there should be a zero tolerance policy for woo.

And as long as it doesn't involve a life-threatening situation, such as refusing to seek treatment for an actual illness, then I think that "happiness" counts for a great deal, since there is not enough of it in the world anyway. If it makes her happy to tie a red string around her wrist, or to use HeadOn for her headaches, or to go to church every Sunday, how is it harming you? ;)

[Goshawk]

(you couldn't tell I wrote a spoof?)

Erm...no, actually.

[ponderingturtle]

Alternatively, one day when she is not about the house, pour the contents of the remedies down the drain and replace them with boiled tap water. Then see how long she takes to notice. I'm guessing she never will! But if she ever finds out you did that...:scarper:

Or be even crueler to yourself - tell her you did indeed replace them with water, but not actually touch the remedies at all. Then see if they suddenly fail to work!

Either way, the results will be "spectacular"!

No, all he will have done is make them more homeopathic, so as long as they are shaken correctly they will be even stronger!

[ponderingturtle]

This is a difficult situation. I've had discussions with two different people recently and made no headway. A friend of my mom won't take real thyroid medicine despite real thyroid medicine having no side effects. She does this despite her husband being on dialysis because he waited too long to seek real medicine for a kidney problem.


What 75c urine would not clear up his need for dialysis? Who could ever have predicted that?

[patrick767]

Good point.

Unfortunately i had to take thousands of doses of homeopathic remedies growing up, as my mother is a beleiver.
The solutions taste very strongly of alcohol, if it were replaced with water it would be immediately detectable.


Of course if they happen to taste the same, you could just mix them up. "Oh no, honey! You took the sleeping aid for your headache!"

This would not work though. Once the wife learned about the switch, she'd probably rationalize it. "I knew I felt too sleepy that day! You bastard!" Replacing her meds with water or another placebo might very well have the same effect. Once the switch is confessed, suddenly she claims she could tell something wasn't working right.

Of course here's one of the huge problems with the common claim, "science just doesn't understand why it works yet." What about the studies that aren't trying to get into why it works at all? All they're trying to do is determine IF the remedy works. Again and again with homeopathy, the studies find that it simply doesn't work. We don't have to understand why/how something may work to compare one group of people who are receiving the supposed remedy and one group who are receiving a placebo.

[Tipush]

I see some people here who know lots and lots about debunking homeopathy--but who don't know much about making a marriage work. From the viewpoint of someone who just celebrated her 33rd wedding anniversary, allow me to expound.

It's all about compromise, and kindness. You compromise on the things that aren't life-threatening--which this isn't, I'm assuming, or else you would have said so in your OP--and throughout, you proceed with kindness.

And being in-your-face, lecturing-for-a-solid-hour confrontational about it, or demanding, yes, demanding, that she allow you to prove to her that her remedies are useless, or secretly pouring out her stuff and then going "nyah, nyah" at her when you decide to reveal the truth, or even just pretending to have poured out her stuff and replaced it with water--those are all unkind. Tricking someone is unkind. Yelling at someone is unkind. Getting in their face about something harmless that they happen to enjoy is unkind--does she get in your face about your occasional beer out with the guys, or about all those carcinogens that your well-charred BBQ beef is producing?

If your wife had cancer, and was insisting on useless alternative medicine for it, that would be one thing. But what harm does it do to let her have her little bottle of HeadOn, or Similisan, or whatever it is. Sure, it's BS, and sure, somebody somewhere is raking in the cash hand over fist...

BUT...

... but in making any friendship work (and marriage IS a friendship), you normally have to make allowances for the other person's strange foibles and quirks. Maybe he firmly believes that the Gray Men are watching his house, or maybe he refuses to let anyone tell him that the Cubs will never win another World Series. Whatever it is, if you want to keep him as a friend, you overlook his little oddities.

And...he, for his part, overlooks yours. Yes, my friend, it's a two-way street here. What little quirks and foibles do YOU have that drive your wife nuts, eh? ;)

Let her have her woo. It's not hurting anything, and it's sure going to drive a pretty solid rift between the two of you, and it will be your fault, because you're the one who has decided to make an issue of it, who just can't let it go.

Besides, haven't you ever heard, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"? Confronting her angrily, lecturing her, will only make her feel more defensive than ever about it. The reply, "It works for me" is already defensive; you've already got her on the defensive. She hears what you're saying, but has decided to ignore it, but isn't secure enough about it to simply shrug and tell you vigorously to go jump in the lake, she feels a need to justify it, and herself, to you, by saying defensively, "It works for me".

And you're not going to get any farther than that for now. Let it go.


Thank you, was waiting for someone to point that out.

Jordy, honestly, I think you should have thought about this BEFORE getting married.
Too late now.


Tip

[Senex]

Well, see, the problem is, how far are you going to go to define "rubbish"? Because I see a place for "religion" on your continuum there. Are you going to allow her to worship at the Baptist church, but not to tie a red string around her wrist, or to use HeadOn for her headaches? They're equally unprovable as remedies in terms of skepticism and (quote unquote) "Science". So where are you going to draw the line?

And what's the difference, in terms of child-raising, between a mom who teaches her children, "God exists", and a mom who teaches her children, "Tying a red string around your wrist works"?

"Belief" can potentially be a powerful force for good, is what I'm saying, and I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater when you say that there should be a zero tolerance policy for woo.

And as long as it doesn't involve a life-threatening situation, such as refusing to seek treatment for an actual illness, then I think that "happiness" counts for a great deal, since there is not enough of it in the world anyway. If it makes her happy to tie a red string around her wrist, or to use HeadOn for her headaches, or to go to church every Sunday, how is it harming you? ;)

And people wonder why I won't marry a woman who won't allow me to spank her :D

[geni]

Make up a say 30C remedy by hand. A bit hard to deny what is going on when it is done in front of you (rather dull mind).

[tkingdoll]

Seriously, I agree (you couldn't tell I wrote a spoof?).


Hee hee! Nope, I totally missed that one. We should get counselling, we're not communicating like we used to :(

[UltraTexan]

D.I.V.O.R.C.E

I was thinking discuss these things before marriage, but that works too.

[Madalch]

What kind of homeopathetic things does she take? If it's sleeping pills, you know what to do- take the whole bottle.

[Mojo]

Make up a say 30C remedy by hand. A bit hard to deny what is going on when it is done in front of you (rather dull mind).


Only if you can get them to understand the maths involved, and what it means. Otherwise, well, "you've only diluted it 30 times..."

[geni]

Only if you can get them to understand the maths involved, and what it means. Otherwise, well, "you've only diluted it 30 times..."

I think most people would get the hint just watching.

[petra10]

I tend to agree with Gayak.Do you both have any other major differences or beliefs.

[rjh01]

What kind of homeopathetic things does she take? If it's sleeping pills, you know what to do- take the whole bottle.

Who cares what it is? As long as it is homeopathy take the lot in front of her. She will then come to her senses and divorce you. So then you will no long have a woo wife.:D:D

[Thing]

If I put an aspirin into the ocean, stirred it up, and drank a few drops of the ocean water, would it cure my headache? If not, why not? Homeopathy 'works' on this principle.
You'd have to put something that caused a headache in the ocean, stirred etc etc

[PBTree]

Well, see, the problem is, how far are you going to go to define "rubbish"? Because I see a place for "religion" on your continuum there. Are you going to allow her to worship at the Baptist church, but not to tie a red string around her wrist, or to use HeadOn for her headaches? They're equally unprovable as remedies in terms of skepticism and (quote unquote) "Science". So where are you going to draw the line?

And what's the difference, in terms of child-raising, between a mom who teaches her children, "God exists", and a mom who teaches her children, "Tying a red string around your wrist works"?

"Belief" can potentially be a powerful force for good, is what I'm saying, and I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater when you say that there should be a zero tolerance policy for woo.

And as long as it doesn't involve a life-threatening situation, such as refusing to seek treatment for an actual illness, then I think that "happiness" counts for a great deal, since there is not enough of it in the world anyway. If it makes her happy to tie a red string around her wrist, or to use HeadOn for her headaches, or to go to church every Sunday, how is it harming you? ;)

Don't have a problem with any of that and it was some of what I wanted to say in my resposnse Gos but the thing is, I don't ""tell my wife what she can or cant do but we do talk to each other when one of us thinks the other is doing something silly. There is generally a solution and sometimes the one doing the supposed silly thing even wins the arguement.
The missus was a sunday school teacher in her early days but now realises that it is really just a lot of hooey. I like to think I played some small part in that by pointing a lot of ridiculous church and religion BS out to her over the years. I used to drink like a fish, now I hardly touch the stuff. She won that one and I am sort of glad she did.

Same in this case, I would keep perservering (nicely) and gradually try to convince her that this is nonsense. I would even put a couple of nights on the couch up for grabs by doing something with her crazy medicine.

Forgetting the medicinal side of things, I just couldn't stand to sit back and watch someone be duped by these bas...ds without doing something. These pieces of dirt are sitting back laughing their collective heads off at people just like her. grrr

Once again, get her off this rubbish.

[Grimoire]

What kind of homeopathetic things does she take? If it's sleeping pills, you know what to do- take the whole bottle.

Just make sure that it really is homeopathic first. In the recent past, there have been a few stories about "herbal supplements" and "homeopathic remedies" being pulled off the shelf because they contained undocumented amounts of real drugs.

[tkingdoll]

You'd have to put something that caused a headache in the ocean, stirred etc etc

A hammer?

You are quite right, but I think if someone doesn't know anything about the principles of homeopathy, the aspirin analogy is a better place to start, because it demonstrates the dilution. If you can frame a concept in something easily imagined, it helps to put it in perspective.

I guess that would mean stage two of the analogy is the thing that causes a headache. You could say 'right, now imagine that instead of an aspirin, you put a bit of brain tumor in the ocean, stirred it etc'

By that point it's blatantly nuts. Which is the 'aha' moment.

[SusanB-M1]

Jordy

I just wonder whether you could quietly put aside for a period of months the equivalent cost, $9 whenever she buys a bottle, then give her the money to buy something that she's been saying she wanted. This would show that the money could be used in a more practical way. Daft idea? Probably!

[rjh01]

Just remember it takes years to persuade a person to change their beliefs. So this is not a short term project.

[ponderingturtle]

Who cares what it is? As long as it is homeopathy take the lot in front of her. She will then come to her senses and divorce you. So then you will no long have a woo wife.:D:D

This can be unwise, as some stuff that is sold as homeopathy has active ingredients that are not even on the label. Sometimes they put real medication in there to make it work.

[ponderingturtle]

You'd have to put something that caused a headache in the ocean, stirred etc etc

So when his wife goes swimming she cures the worlds headaches?

[steve s]

The next time she asks you for a glass of orange juice, dilute a drop of juice into a gallon jug of water. Then pour her a glass and hand it to her. When she complains, just says it's "Homeopathic O.J."

Steve S.

[rjh01]

Sorry, that is only 1M OJ. To get 30C OJ you need to dilute a 1% solution in water, shake, wait and then repeat another 29 times.

[steve s]

Sorry, that is only 1M OJ. To get 30C OJ you need to dilute a 1% solution in water, shake, wait and then repeat another 29 times.

:D

He could always explain to her that what she's drinking is hundreds of times stronger than what the homeopaths are selling her.

Steve S.

[qayak]

Sorry, that is only 1M OJ. To get 30C OJ you need to dilute a 1% solution in water, shake, wait and then repeat another 29 times.

You don't even have to do that! Homeopathy claims water has a memory and remembers the ingredient it was mixed with. Most of the water will never come in contact with an OJ molecule. You just need to create a false memory in the water.

I suggest filling up a glass with water and repeating the words "orange juice" several times in a voice loud enough for the water molecules to hear.

Voila! Homeopathic orange juice.

[RemieV]

I agree with Goshawk, for the most part. There is no reason to lecture on and on and on about something that doesn't *need* to be addressed.

However, everyone eventually gets sick.

If homeopathic remedies are something that your wife takes *instead* of real treatments, then it's probably best to continue droning.

[Gbob]

I gotta side with the "pick your battles" group. I'm not sure how long you've been married, but my experience is that spending 9 bucks on a bottle is better than sleeping on the couch. Ragging on her for an hour is pretty pointless. Remember wargames? Fighting with your spouse is a bit like that where you eventually realize that the only way to win is not to play the game.

If you insult her beliefs she will feel as if you're insulting her.

Hell, my wife is a full bore skeptic who doesn't believe in God, the existence of a soul or the afterlife yet (somehow) believes in ghosts. When I was younger it would drive me nuts and we would have fights over it. Now I'm older and see that life is too damn short.

You did your best, now it's time to let the matter rest. You can let her know that you won't support it by refusing to pick the stuff up for her, but let the matter remain unsettled and never speak of it again.

All you can do is state the facts as you see it, then hope at some point in the future she discovers for herself the error of her ways. Fight the fight outside the home, not in it.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I might as well join the advice line here. I love to give advice. :p

You have 2 of the hardest chores here, convincing someone that their 'personal experience' isn't evidence and arguing with a family member.

In the latter, people interact with a certain pattern that differs considerably from interactions with everyone else. For example my son hears me as his Mom not as a person and vice versa. I have to work to interrupt the habitual line of communication and keep open the normal one.

With couples there are lots of different patterns. You are the only one who knows what affect your usual communication pattern has in your house. I just suggest reflecting on it if it colors the exchange.

The other issue is all too common. You cannot 'teach' someone or impart knowledge with facts and evidence without addressing the underlying conviction that a 'personal experience' is very powerful though it often leads to mistaken conclusions.

I recommend you address the issue of the validity of conclusions drawn from personal experiences with as much evidence as you address the validity of homeopathy.

When you break a window with a hammer, you know the force of the hammer broke the window. And when you wear your hat backward to the ballgame and your team wins, most people know the hat did not affect the game outcome. Why? Simple cause and effect. But take something for a headache and the headache goes away, most people don't understand that they are not considering other possibilities for that headache going away. You consider other possibilities when the team wins the ballgame. You can see the hammer clearly is related to the window breaking.

You have to convince your wife she cannot see the homeopathy remedy curing the headache and needs to consider other possibilities.

Then explain how testing with controls can determine what is actually affecting the headache.

She may understand science but needs to be reminded her own sample size of one is no better than some drug company's sample size of one.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think the pick your battles is important, but it doesn't sound like the headache treatment is the only issue. A major difference in philosophy about evidence might be a big thing or not depending on the situation.

[Dan O.]

Can you find a middle ground?

For instance, let her have the homeopathic remedies but only if she produces them herself so you know exactly what's in them. And she needs to design the tests to determine when the remedies are prepared properly.

[Senex]

Hell, my wife is a full bore skeptic who doesn't believe in God, the existence of a soul or the afterlife yet (somehow) believes in ghosts. When I was younger it would drive me nuts and we would have fights over it. Now I'm older and see that life is too damn short.



I can see this ghost thing working in a guy's favor. Ghosts are notorious for drinking beer and wine and leaving a mess. Ghosts can interefere with many of a male partner's ability to be responsible despite a fellows best effort. Ghosts overall enjoy pranking guys by making them look guilty of something ;)

[Badger]

Good luck there, bud.

Reminds me of the beginning of the end of my marriage.

Goshawk, a little bit of stupid sometimes leads to a lot more. Lets just hope she respects his perspectives enough to allow him the same courtesy you advocate.

[juniper_ann]

Perhaps you could ask her to watch "James Randi explains homeopathy" on Youtube. It's 14 minutes long, and he is quite entertaining.

When my sister bought homeopathic medicine, I asked her to watch that. At the end, she picked up her homeopathic eye drops, noted that it was a 6c dilution of belladonna, and glared at the bottle. If I had tried to explain it to her, I'm pretty sure she would have told me to stop "patronizing" her. (Every time we disagree on anything, she tells me to stop "patronizing" her. Apparently, we still have some things to work on.)