Contradictions needed!

[Ruby]

Hi everyone,

I've been debating on a Christian forum and I have myself a bit cornered by three blood thirsty legalistic Christians.

I need a good list of bible contradictions. Even just a few would be good to start.

I can only think of a few passages offhand........mostly in the Gospels.......the different accounts take of Jesus death on the cross.

Thanks!!!

[neutrino_cannon]

Here's what I got:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[Hexxenhammer]

If you need quick biblical references use this online bible (bible.gospelcom.net). What's the forum? Maybe someone will jump in.

[Ipecac]

There are hundreds of 'em, Ruby. You'll have those guys reeling in no time.

You can start with the creation myth. There are two versions in Genesis and they're slightly different.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by neutrino_cannon
Here's what I got:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Great thanks. That's a lot to sift through.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
If you need quick biblical references use this online bible (bible.gospelcom.net). What's the forum? Maybe someone will jump in.

Thanks!!!

This link should take you to the thread I am debating in. http://www.christianforums.com/t49570&page=13&pp=20

I go by the username of Gentle Panther.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Ipecac
There are hundreds of 'em, Ruby. You'll have those guys reeling in no time.

You can start with the creation myth. There are two versions in Genesis and they're slightly different.

I think I have these guys confused......I know the scriptures and quote them to them, but say I don't really believe in them. They are confounded by that. They have also accused me of "taking away" from the book of Revelation since I said it was "unimportant" to me. I think they are cornering me because they are afraid I am in danger of hellfire. They also want to trip me up.

The thread I am debating on is supposed to be about baptism. I was arguing that the scriptures were so full of contradictions on the issue of whether or not to baptize that it should not matter. They are arguing that the scripture clearly teach you must be baptized to be "saved". The whole thing is evolving into something else!!

[Skeptical Greg]

Nice collection here..

Biblical Errancy (http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Nice collection here..

Biblical Errancy (http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html)

Thank you!!

Now I don't have time to post anything on that forum. I do have lots of stuff to look at!!:)

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Ruby
I need a good list of bible contradictions. Even just a few would be good to start.


Here are a few taken from The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy (C. Dennis MeKinsey)

2 Samuel 8:4 - 700 horsemen
1 Chron 18:4 - 7,000 horsemen

2 Kings 8:26 - 22 years old
2 Chron 22:2 - 42 years old

2 Samuel 6:23 - no sons
2 Samuel 21:8 - 5 sons

2 Samuel 24:9 - 800,00 men
1 Chron 21:5 - 1,100,000 men

2 Kings 25:8 - 7th day
Jer 52:12 - 10th day

1 Kings 9:23 - 550 officers
2 Chron 8:10 - 250 officers

2 Kings 24:8 - 18 years
2 Chron 36:9 - 8 years

1 Sam 31:4 - killed himself
2 Sam 21:12 - Philistine
2 Sam 1:10 - Amalekite

Acts 1:18 - 30 pieces of silver
Matt 27:3-5 - returned the money

etc etc

[Hexxenhammer]

And always use the King James Version verses. They're much scarier and old-timey sounding.

[Pahansiri]

Greetings my friend Ruby

I for many years studied the NT and OT and debated often concerning the Contradictions. I stopped for many reasons:

A- With the wrong people it was rude to confront what they healed dear regardless of their seeking debate.
B- Ego arose in me at times “ enjoying” being “right”.

Lastly even with people who were as these people you speak of, aggressive etc you will NEVER win. You will clearly demonstrate a clear contradiction providing all facts, date etc and the response will be:

1- “ You are taking it out of context” That will be followed with you asking for the “ right context and proof” that will be followed with crickets.
2- “ because” followed by you asking for more then that followed by, crickets.
3- Anger will start to arise and you will be accused being “stupid” “evil” “lost” a “fool” etc, etc, etc.

When you point out for example:

Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
And
JAMES 1:26 -If Anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his sharp tongue but deceives his own heart, this ones religion is useless~

Their responses will be a replay of my 1-2 and 3.

You are where I was years ago after years of schooling and being raised in a Christian family I knew I did not believe what Christianity held but first fear (an illusion) kept be bound, then the fear of “ what if it is true then I am screwed” that passed then came debating and that was found for ME to be fruitless and more of a self “fulfilling” and ego trip if you will. But that is just me and I do not speak for you.

We do not have the power to change anyone and the “need” or desire to such as a Christian or other god based group seeking to convert of a non believer in the god idea seeking to change a believer, I believe is 100% a self or ego need. The need to be right, on the “right team”.

I still allow my silly self to become caught up in my ego but will always keep trying to catch myself.

I believe to plant the seeds of loving kindness, respect and compassion will “change” others to what I believe is best, loving kindness, respect and compassion for all living things.

Like all seeds they will grow and flower when the causes and conditions are right.

I still love to debate but on this topic you will NEVER WIN and only become frustrated.

This is just what I believe.

May you and all be well and happy.

OH yes, one last thing.

I am the most intelligent, hansom, sexy human on earth :bgrin: and if you do NOT believe me, refer to number lines 1-2 & 3.


:big:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Hexxenhammer
And always use the King James Version verses. They're much scarier and old-timey sounding.

LOL!!:wink8:

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Ruby


Thanks!!!

This link should take you to the thread I am debating in. http://www.christianforums.com/t49570&page=13&pp=20

I go by the username of Gentle Panther.
Thanks for the link, Ruby :).

I'll be joining that particular forum in a few minutes (if not after I finish the post, sometime later tonight). Golly gee, will these people get upset if go by the username "Yahweh"? If Yahweh is already taken, I'll go by "Philosopher Yahweh".

I am well versed on the New Testament, I know my way around the Old testament, and I'm going to begin working on familiarizing myself with the Book of Mormon.

I know I'll have quite a good time on that board. How do I know, from this quote on the forum's header...
Christian Forums is a free, non-profit and non-denominational Christian forum community uniting all Christians as one body.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Pahansiri
Greetings my friend Ruby

I for many years studied the NT and OT and debated often concerning the Contradictions. I stopped for many reasons:

A- With the wrong people it was rude to confront what they healed dear regardless of their seeking debate.
B- Ego arose in me at times “ enjoying” being “right”.

Lastly even with people who were as these people you speak of, aggressive etc you will NEVER win. You will clearly demonstrate a clear contradiction providing all facts, date etc and the response will be:

1- “ You are taking it out of context” That will be followed with you asking for the “ right context and proof” that will be followed with crickets.
2- “ because” followed by you asking for more then that followed by, crickets.
3- Anger will start to arise and you will be accused being “stupid” “evil” “lost” a “fool” etc, etc, etc.

You are probably right, but there is always the chance that some doubt will be put into someone's thinking. I try to stop, but I can't. I've been trying to end the debate, but getted trapped into it again.

I used to debate a lot when I ran my own forum. I was pretty much a fundamentalist at the time. There were some, who were liberal, and at first they confounded me, but at some point I did wonder and question things. I became a lot less fundamental before I left my forum.

Now being on here, my beliefs have really been challenged to the point of becoming a very liberal Christian........no longer believing the bible to be inspired and other things...

I believe to plant the seeds of loving kindness, respect and compassion will “change” others to what I believe is best, loving kindness, respect and compassion for all living things.

Like all seeds they will grow and flower when the causes and conditions are right.

Well, I'm not exactly a vicious person! :D

I am the most intelligent, hansom, sexy human on earth :bgrin: and if you do NOT believe me, refer to number lines 1-2 & 3.


:big:

LOL!!!

[bPer]

Hi Ruby,

The above references are all excellent, and well worth a careful read.

I have another URL to offer you with something similar, but perhaps useful when away from the computer: Compact Bible Errata (http://www.cryptoclast.org/Opinion/religion/bible/wallet_bible.htm). It is laid out in such a way that you can print it double-sided (even on printers that don't do that automatically), trim it down and fold it to fit in your pocket, purse or what-have-you.

Just in case you bump into your former fellow worshipers and feel like giving them something to think about. Heh heh heh.

Good luck with the debates! Please keep us apprised.

bPer

[Pahansiri]

riginally posted by Ruby

You are probably right, but there is always the chance that some doubt will be put into someone's thinking.


And are you doing that to ‘save them”? Is this for them or you? Is this the same old converting with new paint?


Just asking and I mean no disrespect.




I try to stop, but I can't. I've been trying to end the debate, but getted trapped into it again.

BS!!! Lol..

You “can’t” or do not yet wish to? There is a great difference. As “ getting trapped into it again” lol again BS!!!… I have a friend who said her poor son is always getting dragged though the mud, I reminded her that no one was dragged through the mud without first self tying on the rope.

No one can trap or force you to debate.


I used to debate a lot when I ran my own forum. I was pretty much a fundamentalist at the time.

That is hard to image, you being such you are a kind and sweet being. I do know others who are too very kind and sweet that are fundamentalist, point out that they may be wrong or do not believe what they wish you to and the sweet becomes sour fast.

There were some, who were liberal, and at first they confounded me, but at some point I did wonder and question things. I became a lot less fundamental before I left my forum.

Yes many things stimulate what is already in the mind but the bottom line it was always there, the doubt but fear keeps it buried. When we see it is us that is the creator of the fear and not anything else it fades.

Well, I'm not exactly a vicious person! :D

That is for sure you are a good, kind and sweet being.

[a_unique_person]

Ruby,

I can understand your problem, but as Panhanrishi says, you just have to let it go. Tell them you have said what you believe to be true, and thank them for their time. Then drop it.

As you have recently been a Xian and going to church, only to see one massive Xian contradiction forced on you, it is probably best to leave this sort of thing alone for a while. You will not be able to change their minds, it is only something that they will have to work out for themselves, just as you did. Just give them the evidence that you have seen for yourself.

I was brought up a Catholic, and, while I am glad I have dropped all that stuff, my parents are still quite firm in their belief, (although not the dogmatic people they once were).

They too knew that being total believers in the teachings of the Church only led to absurdity too. So, like most people, they have reached an accomodation between what they know is reasonable in the world and what they feel gives them comfort in faith. In absolute terms, this is a nonsense, but they are happy to live with these contradictions. And I am happy for them to be like that. They are not hurting anyone, (now....), with dogmatic adherence to a 'faith'.

[a_unique_person]

Ruby,

I had a quick look at that thread. It brought back all those old feelings of being trapped in a miserable life of rules and obligations that make living life like being dead, and wishing death would hurry up so I would be free of it.

Now, I'm not saying that life is perfect outside that mindset, but at least I now have the capacity to try to sort things out for myself in a reasonable and ethical manner. I have done stupid things and good things, but I would have achieved nothing the old way of living.

[the_ignored]

The Skeptics Annotaded Bible is not held in much regard by even athiests, and any good xian apologist will just "laugh it off" unless you are very careful about what you pick.

Here's a source you may find more useful.

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=104&sid=4443299c3584bd58bd21439bd46acb1d0

(for some more info, see also http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?postid=1147429#post1147429

[sorgoth]

This makes me think of 1984's 'doublethink'. Simultaneously believing two opposing things at once.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Ruby
Hi everyone,

I've been debating on a Christian forum and I have myself a bit cornered by three blood thirsty legalistic Christians.

I need a good list of bible contradictions. Even just a few would be good to start.

I can only think of a few passages offhand........mostly in the Gospels.......the different accounts take of Jesus death on the cross.

Thanks!!!

You must be one of those people who actually enjoy banging your head against a wall.

[TexasBEAST]

On contradictions with respect to baptism, you could always point out the NT verses that say salvation doesn't come from "acts" or "works", but through faith alone.

On the different orders of Creation in Gen. I & II, also notice that Gen. I says it took 6 days, but II says it only took one day ("in the day"...)

Who killed the giant Goliath of Gath? I Samuel says David when he was a boy and Saul was king, but II Sam. says one of David's soldiers when he was grown and king of all Israel...

Might help to find out which groups of passages are considered more important to your religious audience, and focus on those contradictions. It's really easy to get overwhelmed otherwise...

On the subject of whether or not it's even worth doing at all, I say hell ya! Telling the truth about the contradictions in the Bible and defending it isn't wrong, no matter how many religious people get offended in the process. You have nothing to apologize for. And you have nothing to feel guilty over when it starts to get a little fun! :p

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
You must be one of those people who actually enjoy banging your head against a wall.
You must be one to say almost anything regardless if it makes you look like an ass or not.

[LeFevre]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


You must be one of those people who actually enjoy banging your head against a wall.

To each their own T'at Chi, maybe she will make a few chips in the wall that others didn't. Or not.

[LeFevre]

Feed your Faith, and your doubts will starve to death


:eek: :confused: :(

[Nucular]

Hi Ruby

I don't think you should end the debate - don't you find it really weird to see how irrational people can be no matter what you throw at them? I think it's worth it just for the "wow" value :)

Regarding contradictions - most contradictions in the Bible have some kind of pat, legalistic answer, which usually relies heavily on exploiting abiguity and sometimes sacrificing assumed meaning to temporarily score points (then forgetting that they've 'discovered' a whole new Biblical message the next time you talk to them).

For this reason, I find it much more rewarding to pick maybe just one or two of the strongest contradictions, and never let go (unless they actually are explained away, of course). Sometimes I've been surprised that what I thought was a contradiction, irritatingly wasn't - but in the interests of honesty I pull out after that, often with the rejoinder that I'm unhappy with their obvious twisting of meaning, but that there isn't anywhere else to go with that.

Also, as well as internal contradictions, like those mentioned above, I think it can sometimes be more rewarding to point out where the Bible conflicts with reality, especially if the statement has been made, as it often is, that archaeology always supports the Bible.

One of my favourite examples of this (favourite because although it's suggested as a contradiction by the Skeptics' Annotated Bible I've researched it myself and found it to be uncommented on throughout fundamentalist sites like answersingenesis.org, where often these people get their ripostes, little-used in debates, and fairly watertight) regards Genesis 10 (end) & 11 (beginning), which hold that the whole world had one language after the Flood (which might be expected), and only had many after the Tower of Babel incident. This conflicts with our very clear archaeological evidence of the development of written language, which can be traced pre-Flood (as estimated by fundamentalist Genesis timelines), all the way through the likely dates for Babel, and onwards.

I started that one on this site (http://concursus.proboards15.com/index.cgi?board=religion&action=display&num=1051905192) (a very very quiet board) - I'm called Doubtful there; it was particularly fun there because I was working with their facts and figures, doing research only when a point was challenged, and slowly realised that this was rather a strong point! A longer version is here (http://www.faithforum.org/challenge/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2859&whichpage=1), although I shamefully neglected that and the debate died (I'm Will on that one btw, my real name). But yeah, there's quite a lot of online stuff, which I link to in those threads, to do with the origins of written language (obviously languages were around long, long before, but it's much harder to argue without physical evidence), and it's pleasant because they come from academic sources with no atheistic motivation.

So yeah. Good luck, I think you should stick with it Ruby!

[evildave]

I particularly like the "No True Scottsman" attitude Christians maintain.

On one hand, you have Christians claiming they're the most numerous faith on Earth, and deserve extra representation and privileges through goverment, but sometimes in the same breath they tell you that THEY are the only true Christians.

Certain of them just reject half of all Christianity (Catholicism) as damned at once.

Let's cite an easy example (given the nature of the argument in the other thread).

Many Baptists think only Baptists will be in Heaven, and therefore only Baptists should have a voice in government. And that puts the number of "real christians" at around 70,000,000 (worldwide) and around 33,830,000 in the U.S. (#2 to US Catholics). Naturally, the Southern Baptists believe they're the only REAL Baptists (19,881,467 - still #2).

So, we already have "Real Christians" (as defined by Southern Baptists) down to 20 million out of over 300 million. Or 6%. And that's before we start looking at how Southern Baptists view each other for varying adherence and lack or presence of "born-again" attributes in each-other.

That's what some of us might call a "small minority". But for the religiously afflicted and math-challenged, that's "obviously" a popular mandate to put the Baptist church in charge of the whole government.

http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#Pew_branches

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Nucular
I started that one on this site (http://concursus.proboards15.com/index.cgi?board=religion&action=display&num=1051905192) (a very very quiet board) - I'm called Doubtful there;

I read your posts Nucular - nice work

[Nucular]

Thanks triadboy! It's a thankless task sometimes :)

[Tony]

The problem with trying to convince fanatics using bible contradictions is that there are refutations for the contradictions.

[Eos of the Eons]

How about throwing some of the sick stuff in the bible, like incest, in their faces.

I think it was Joseph in the old testament who had only daughters. They felt guilty and sad that he didn't have a son. To rectify this they take him off to some cave or something and get him drunk and sleep with him.

Ughg. Chauvenistic attitudes in the bible sicken me.

I really did read this, and stopped reading the bible because of it. I was too disgusted.

[LCBOY]

Ruby,

I've been gone a while. What's going on? Are you no longer a Christian?

[evildave]

There's always the Pecker Chopper Massacre. It's a fine story.

AKA "Genesis 34: Dinah and the Shechemites" (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=GEN+34&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on).

Just one among many such stories.

Naturally, that which you don't like is among the things in the Bible that "don't count".

That's why they put it in their most holy Bible, because it doesn't count. Right there in the same section with their most holy commandments.

The important bit about religion and holy books is to pick and choose what you like. Like a buffet.

[UnrepentantSinner]

As pointed out by the ignored it's always best to have a response to a possible response when debating an issue. I've done the EVILution thing for so long I can reply from memory (with a little Google.com help) for just about every creationist argument. You might want to check out the link I'm going to provide (sorry I'm too lazy to create a link) and see about some of the counter arguments on contradictions so you can have a reposte to said fients.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/
This is one of the best sites of responses to contradictions I'm aware of.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
I think it was Joseph in the old testament who had only daughters. They felt guilty and sad that he didn't have a son. To rectify this they take him off to some cave or something and get him drunk and sleep with him.


I think you are thinking of Lot.

[Dancing David]

Numbers 31 and the 'Okay you can keep the virgins, kill the rest"

Revelation is Paul, not Jesus, in fact alot of the NT is not even close to Jesus.

Where did the people come for the children of Adam and Eve to marry?
Who is Lilith?
God started the first creation and extended Justice without Mercy and destroyed the world.(Qabalah on why there are two creations.)

The Messiah is a Jewish figure to save Jewish nation/state.

Ruby, good luck, I hope you find healing in this process.

[Vortex]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
How about throwing some of the sick stuff in the bible, like incest, in their faces.

I think it was Joseph in the old testament who had only daughters. They felt guilty and sad that he didn't have a son. To rectify this they take him off to some cave or something and get him drunk and sleep with him.

Ughg. Chauvenistic attitudes in the bible sicken me.

I really did read this, and stopped reading the bible because of it. I was too disgusted.

Isaiah 36:12 is really sick too. The people are sitting up on the wall eating their own dung and drinking their own urine... yuck! Psalm 137 is just plain vile... God bashes the infants against the rocks... gulp!

[evildave]

Yeah, but the Dinah story is all about conversion!

Read it!

The whole city got circumsized, just so the prince could marry Dinah (demonstating the counter-biblical teaching that girls are more than mere property). And then the nice people of Israel went in and killed all the men, and took all the women, children and valuables.

25 Three days later, while all of them were still in pain, two of Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah's brothers, took their swords and attacked the unsuspecting city, killing every male. 26 They put Hamor and his son Shechem to the sword and took Dinah from Shechem's house and left. 27 The sons of Jacob came upon the dead bodies and looted the city where [4] their sister had been defiled. 28 They seized their flocks and herds and donkeys and everything else of theirs in the city and out in the fields. 29 They carried off all their wealth and all their women and children, taking as plunder everything in the houses.

The lesson taught is: Don't convert to other people's religions. They'll just betray and destroy you for their personal gain, once you are under their power.

[Peter Jenkins]

That whole Jacob/Esau thing really got my goat, when we used to discuss it in sunday school (in the Morg, adults get to go to sunday school, too)
Jacob is blessed of god (but god can't arrange things so that he's the first born?). If you read Genesis 25 - 33 just look at Jacobs personality. He lies, cheats, steals, His wife steals (rachel) and he is a consumate coward - so much so, that when God tells him to return home to meet with his brother (who he has seriously wronged) he sends his servants AND HIS WIVES on in front, in case Esau is in the mood to kill anyone.

Long story short, Jacob's a b****rd, and is blessed by God. Esau shows love and forgiveness and gets the dirty end of the stick.

Peter

[Nucular]

Hi Peter - what's the Morg?

[LW]

Originally posted by Ipecac
There are hundreds of 'em, Ruby. You'll have those guys reeling in no time.

You are being very, very optimistic.

You see, for most contradictions there exists a convoluted way to interpret the text so that the contradiction vanishes.

You can start with the creation myth. There are two versions in Genesis and they're slightly different.

That one is presented to fundamentalists so often that they have a standard answer: the second one is not an independent creation story but a short recap of the real story given before.

Some time ago in another forum a biblical literalist expressed the claim that all archeological finds have supported the Bible. I then asked him about the book of Daniel, whose version of the fall of Babylon is contradicted by all existing evidence, both archeological and historical writing. In particular there are two places that cannot be conciled with historical record:

(Dan 5:30-31 (or 5:30-6:1, depending on verse structure)):
30 In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.


According to historic record, it was Cyrus who concured Babylon. Also, Darius was not a Mede but also a Persian, and the kings Cambyses and Smerdis ruled between his and Cyrus's reigns.

(Dan 9:1)
1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;


Again, Darius wasn't a Mede and his father was not Ahasuerus but Vishtaspa (or Histaspes in Greek form). Ahasuerus (Xerxes in Greek) was his son.

The only reply that I've gotten from that literalist is that he would examine the evidence. This was a week ago, and still no further reply.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Thanks for the link, Ruby :).

I'll be joining that particular forum in a few minutes (if not after I finish the post, sometime later tonight). Golly gee, will these people get upset if go by the username "Yahweh"? If Yahweh is already taken, I'll go by "Philosopher Yahweh".

I am well versed on the New Testament, I know my way around the Old testament, and I'm going to begin working on familiarizing myself with the Book of Mormon.

I know I'll have quite a good time on that board. How do I know, from this quote on the forum's header...


Oh cool!! I have not been on the forum in a few days due to Labor day weekend. Look forward to seeing you there!

(this is my 1000th post!:) )

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Pahansiri
riginally posted by Ruby




And are you doing that to ‘save them”? Is this for them or you? Is this the same old converting with new paint?

I don't know. That's all I can answer for that.

You “can’t” or do not yet wish to? There is a great difference. As “ getting trapped into it again” lol again BS!!!… I have a friend who said her poor son is always getting dragged though the mud, I reminded her that no one was dragged through the mud without first self tying on the rope.

No one can trap or force you to debate.

Right. I get myself trapped....but trapped nontheless!!




That is for sure you are a good, kind and sweet being.

Thank you!! :)

[Ruby]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Ruby,

I can understand your problem, but as Panhanrishi says, you just have to let it go. Tell them you have said what you believe to be true, and thank them for their time. Then drop it.

As you have recently been a Xian and going to church, only to see one massive Xian contradiction forced on you, it is probably best to leave this sort of thing alone for a while. You will not be able to change their minds, it is only something that they will have to work out for themselves, just as you did. Just give them the evidence that you have seen for yourself.

I was brought up a Catholic, and, while I am glad I have dropped all that stuff, my parents are still quite firm in their belief, (although not the dogmatic people they once were).

They too knew that being total believers in the teachings of the Church only led to absurdity too. So, like most people, they have reached an accomodation between what they know is reasonable in the world and what they feel gives them comfort in faith. In absolute terms, this is a nonsense, but they are happy to live with these contradictions. And I am happy for them to be like that. They are not hurting anyone, (now....), with dogmatic adherence to a 'faith'.

I am sure there will come a time when I stop posting on that forum. I've had a nice break recently....but want to go back on.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


You must be one of those people who actually enjoy banging your head against a wall.

Maybe, maybe not.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by TexasBEAST
On the subject of whether or not it's even worth doing at all, I say hell ya! Telling the truth about the contradictions in the Bible and defending it isn't wrong, no matter how many religious people get offended in the process. You have nothing to apologize for. And you have nothing to feel guilty over when it starts to get a little fun! :p

Thanks. It's nice to hear someone does not think me insane for posting on that forum.:cool:

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Nucular
Hi Ruby

I don't think you should end the debate - don't you find it really weird to see how irrational people can be no matter what you throw at them? I think it's worth it just for the "wow" value :)

Thanks! It was truly mind blowing to me to read the posts by all these Christians heavy into debate with each other on the meaning of scripture. I was seeing it all in a different light.

Regarding contradictions - most contradictions in the Bible have some kind of pat, legalistic answer, which usually relies heavily on exploiting abiguity and sometimes sacrificing assumed meaning to temporarily score points (then forgetting that they've 'discovered' a whole new Biblical message the next time you talk to them).

It does help that I've had years of bible study. In the lists of contradictions, I know so many that can be explained away by fundamentalist christian. I know the aruments and pat answers. Some are pitiful...some are logical......few are logical.

I started that one on this site (http://concursus.proboards15.com/index.cgi?board=religion&action=display&num=1051905192) (a very very quiet board) - I'm called Doubtful there; it was particularly fun there because I was working with their facts and figures, doing research only when a point was challenged, and slowly realised that this was rather a strong point! A longer version is here (http://www.faithforum.org/challenge/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2859&whichpage=1), although I shamefully neglected that and the debate died (I'm Will on that one btw, my real name). But yeah, there's quite a lot of online stuff, which I link to in those threads, to do with the origins of written language (obviously languages were around long, long before, but it's much harder to argue without physical evidence), and it's pleasant because they come from academic sources with no atheistic motivation.

I would like to check out that thread.

So yeah. Good luck, I think you should stick with it Ruby!

Thanks!!!!:wink8:

[Peter Jenkins]

Originally posted by Nucular
Hi Peter - what's the Morg?

The Morg - The Mormon Collective: You WILL be assimilated, Amen

Peter

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Ruby


Thanks. It's nice to hear someone does not think me insane for posting on that forum.:cool:

Ruby I in no way think you insane at all, I believe you are just the very same steps most take when walking away or backing away a bit from a belief.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by LCBOY
Ruby,

I've been gone a while. What's going on? Are you no longer a Christian?

I am a very liberal Christian.....pretty much Unitarian in my beliefs now.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Peter Jenkins
That whole Jacob/Esau thing really got my goat, when we used to discuss it in sunday school (in the Morg, adults get to go to sunday school, too)
Jacob is blessed of god (but god can't arrange things so that he's the first born?). If you read Genesis 25 - 33 just look at Jacobs personality. He lies, cheats, steals, His wife steals (rachel) and he is a consumate coward - so much so, that when God tells him to return home to meet with his brother (who he has seriously wronged) he sends his servants AND HIS WIVES on in front, in case Esau is in the mood to kill anyone.

Long story short, Jacob's a b****rd, and is blessed by God. Esau shows love and forgiveness and gets the dirty end of the stick.

Peter

It's good to hear someome express what I have always felt about that bible story.

[Ruby]

Originally posted by Pahansiri


Ruby I in no way think you insane at all, I believe you are just the very same steps most take when walking away or backing away a bit from a belief.

That's what I surmise too!!:)