Anarchy vs Primitivism

[JJR]

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/all-anarchy.jpg VS
http://www.miraclemountainimages.com/images/category224/Genesis.jpg

My friend Nick (distantly part Mexican - which means Asian of course since the Native Americans are Asian) is a Rational Anarchist. That means he follows the little, "A" with the circle with the "A" INSIDE of the circle, instead of outside. It means that he does not believe in government, and that he believes in equality and peace. I find this interesting, if a little mathmatically perfect. A little too perfect, since humans make mistakes and need to compensate for imperfection with a little control just to keep things in balance before the control recedes and it goes back to what I call a, "mob rule democracy".

I am a Modern Primitive . . . even more so than people who just stick themselves even though I think the Rite of Passage is important as is being somewhat of a Naturist. I have a high tollerance for pain. Every time I have an insomnia "episode" I always have a flood of new knowledge. Unlike Nick, I have the urge to take off all of my clothes and walk around naked when I am downtown. I've eaten bugs and done other things most people would find strange and animalistic. I believe that humans are animals and tend to follow the Law of the Jungle . . . weither they know it or not. Sometimes they pretend not to be part of Nature . . . then suddenly plunge back into the plasma pool and things are handled badly. I feel the "suprise relapse" back into Nature is too stressful . . . so I just act as Naturally as possible in the first place.

What I mean by a, "Mob rule democracy" is what was attained at the Grateful Dead shows. They never had a set list . . . no one knew what they were going to play in advance. They'd just go out there, and the night's musical selections would depend upon what the crowd did . . . sometimes what they demanded be played. If someone was desperate enough to hear a particular song it was usually played.

Jerry Garcia retained a tiny bit of control so that the show went smothely. Not everyone knows what they are doing and gentle guidance is required from time to time. This goes against what Anarchists believe in (strictly speaking) . . . but as a Modern Primitive I see nothing wrong with an extremely fried head taking charge over a situation and making sure the gigglings don't screw things up.

I see nothing wrong with that at all. To be honest, I'd like to see more of it.

Nick and I clash sometimes . . . he usually thinks I'm being too racist and I usually think he is becomming Big Brother the Communist Avenger. However, we often see eye to eye since we both want to destroy most of what many folks call, "Civilization".

I still think I'm the better friend of businessmen and especially scientists and learned, sensitive men. Nick is a tad jealous (I believe) and has even said that I was born with a "bronze spoon" in my mouth. I on the other hand will always let creative guys play with their toys and can see interesting alternatives to my ideas . . . like rounded rooms with no corners for classrooms . . . kind of like bringing the zoo to the class instead of having the class take a field trip for their day's education.

I have a lot of ideas, and sometimes meeting someone half way for a little while causes completely new ideas to be born. I will keep heading along what I consider to be the right path . . . but who knows what we will see and who we will meet along the way?

Anarchy vs Primitivism. The two theories continue to be tested and taken to their logical boundaries. The trial and error continues.

[Tailgater]

However, we often see eye to eye since we both want to destroy most of what many folks call, "Civilization".

It's really cool that you guys have something in common.

The only question I really have is if you know how that guys penis got above his belly button? Did they do that in the rite of passage?

[Segnosaur]

For some reason, this cartoon seems relevant...

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp12102002.shtml

[Puppycow]

That's right. Anarchy means the strong can do whatever they want, and the weak better watch out.

Civilization is the weak working together collectively to protect themselves from the strong.

[Corpse Cruncher]

Can anarchy actually exist if they follow some or many rules of civilisation?

I have never heard of primitivism? Sounds primordial but can that truly exist?

[JJR]

That's right. Anarchy means the strong can do whatever they want, and the weak better watch out.

Civilization is the weak working together collectively to protect themselves from the strong.

Hey - this is more like what I believe and I'm NO ANARCHIST . . . but I'm the only Alpha Ape so no one else has the right to boss you around. If someone else was trying to boss you something is wrong and there should be an inquiry.

You are all girlie men and should play nice together. Your only boss will never get fat and lazy and wicked because that would make the ladies revolted . . . it's like science.

Technichally, my only function is to reproduce . .. and have the offspring live and flourish. You don't have to worry if corruption and tyrany will occur because oppression involves paperwork. I'm not interested in any other area of politics except maybe for having Norway buy my family's castle from the idiot Christians so that the money earned from tourism can be spent on feeding the folks local to the area . . . the Rose Clan.

The Rose Castle feeds the Rose Clan. People taking care of themselves and using their own local resources is a good idea.

Stay in your own backyard, please. Get er dun. ;)

[JJR]

For some reason, this cartoon seems relevant...

http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp12102002.shtml


I like the guy picking on the Anarchist. Looks like a fine European American to me. He should have lots of kids.

Happy breeding!

[JJR]

Can anarchy actually exist if they follow some or many rules of civilisation?

Modern Primitives do primitive rites of passage in a modern "civilization" . . . therefore Anarchists can practice their beliefs while still more or less obeying the laws of kings, presidents, and magistrates. The rites of passage continue . .. and you can't argue with that much metal embeded in the skin.

I have never heard of primitivism? Sounds primordial but can that truly exist?

Of course. You just have to reject everything that is artificial. Don't worry about all the savagery and barbarism that people try to inject into you at that point because all of that is for the royalty and no one else . . . and everyone knows the royals are a little weird . .. if not outright batty sometimes lol. Sometimes watching royals is like watching thundering elephants in a zoo. Don't read too much into what is said. Plus, it's more about personal dicipline than being violent to others.

If all goes well, our society won't be crawling with cops and soldiers in the future . . . but rather we will attempt to emulate the "small town" model . . . with just a sherrif and a mayor, etc. As little toadie patrol stuff as possible. Ween off from the piggery.

With each citizen diciplined by father and friends, we can be as strong as Sparta. I loved how they made fun of Athens in the movie, "300". Class.

Being as strong as Sparta sounds scary, but it's just like having jr. take martial arts . . . it's good to start them early with that. Many six-year-olds study the dicipline.

[Gurdur]

.....With each citizen diciplined by father and friends, we can be as strong as Sparta.
Sparta ended. How did Sparta end?
I loved how they made fun of Athens in the movie, "300". Class.
It should be noted that that is where the movie got it very wrong. The Spartans were much more into pedophiliac homosexuality than the Athenians were.
Being as strong as Sparta sounds scary,

Since Sparta is DEAD, yes, it sounds scary. I'ld rather be much more stronger than Sparta myself.

And a phalanx can easily be ph***ed if you phlank it.

[JJR]

Sparta ended. How did Sparta end?

Who cares? There were too many unanswered questions back then for political science to be the creative art it is now. With that sort of crudity, the civilization is bound to be subject to the inevitable cycle of assention and decline. It was inevitable.

It should be noted that that is where the movie got it very wrong. The Spartans were much more into pedophiliac homosexuality than the Athenians were.

I think the king was referring to the way that in Athens old guys would pick up pre-teens in the street. Child prostitution was such a problem that store owners would have to put up signs telling people to beat it during the hours of business.

Today, it would be a fat dude handing a little dude a purse with a big circle and slash . . . no whoring here. Sparta was more diciplined about sex and their streets were not littered with whores and johns.

People prefered to keep things behind closed doors.

Since Sparta is DEAD, yes, it sounds scary. I'ld rather be much more stronger than Sparta myself.

And a phalanx can easily be ph***ed if you phlank it.

I'm not worried. We know what causes a civilization to end and it can be circumvented.

[Tailgater]

On a serious note, like many utopian ideas, this is an impossibility. Mental maturity and free will never let anything like this happen. You might get it to work in commune type environments, but never in a city with millions of people. That's even if I understand what you are talking about. You should drop the Grateful Dead and zoo analogies and get more to the point.

[JJR]

On a serious note, like many utopian ideas, this is an impossibility. Mental maturity and free will never let anything like this happen. You might get it to work in commune type environments, but never in a city with millions of people. That's even if I understand what you are talking about. You should drop the Grateful Dead and zoo analogies and get more to the point.

Turn all the golf courses into communal farms. Let's start there. Having tasty food on the table every night for everyone would be a big step in the right direction imho. You have more money to spend on joy that way, and more of that is always a good idea.

I wish to reach equillibrium with Nature. This is somewhat off-topic, but John Forbes Nash Jr.'s mathmatical equillibrium that he used to counter Adam Smith's assertion that, "In competition, individual ambition serves the common good" has been used for global trade negotiations, national labor relations, and even breakthroughs in evolutionairy biology.

Animals know enough to work in packs . . . while the majority of humans remain afraid to be part of anything more permanent than themselves. No good can come from this biological hypocracy.

[JJR]

http://www.ufosrus.50megs.com/images/red_sky_ufo.jpg

http://home.planet.nl/~muije000/Humour/nieuw/mib.jpg

:rolleyes:

Breach of Rule 4 - hotlinked images converted to links.

[Tailgater]

Turn all the golf courses into communal farms. Let's start there.

Ok, how do you deal with the revolting golfers? Why start there?

[Darat]

And I suspect that would not provide much food for many people.

[CplFerro]

...However, we often see eye to eye since we both want to destroy most of what many folks call, "Civilization"....

Dear JJR,

You don't mind killing billions of people, then? Are you a Deep Ecologist?

Cpl Ferro

[JJR]

Ok, how do you deal with the revolting golfers? Why start there?

I'd deter their antisocial behavior . . . making them much happier and more productive citizens.

[JJR]

And I suspect that would not provide much food for many people.

You'd be surprised what a bunch of food can do for a party. It really allows you to stretch that dollar for beer and other diversions that help obtain joy . . . and that is attractive to females.

[Darat]

How big are these golf courses, how much food of what type can be grown on them and how many people can you feed per year using this resource?

[JJR]

Dear JJR,

You don't mind killing billions of people, then? Are you a Deep Ecologist?

Cpl Ferro

Freedom loving forces have bent over backwards to avoid killing billions of people. Civilization encourages people to act like a virus . . . consuming all the natural resources, multiplying, and then moving to another area once everything is gone.

If I was a pessimistic as you are implying, I would say it was humanity that acts like a virus. I am not saying this. I am saying Civilization is the disease.

Humans should be more tribal and feudal . . . embracing the outdoors more. Watching a fire and hearing a good story is just as good as watching telivision . . . and studies indicate that a subject's brain waves during both activities . . . are identical.

[JJR]

How big are these golf courses, how much food of what type can be grown on them and how many people can you feed per year using this resource?

Golf courses are pretty big. I used to help my Grandparents with their enormous garden in thier backyard. Immagine if we had people working together to make compost. All of their egg shells, orange peels, and so on would go in a seperate bag, and we could use it for the farm.

Compost really makes your garden healthier and more productive. Those golf coarses are huge and we could grow so many oranges, stawberries, sweet corn stalks, lettuce, carrots, sweet peas and other vedgetables there it boggles the immagination.

Maybe we chould have a few parks converted to bee farms!!! We got a 70 pound yield from just five bee hives at the Rose's house!!

[Darat]

You have not answered my question. Had you not considered the issues I asked you about prior to posting your suggestion or is your suggestion not meant to be taken seriously?

[CplFerro]

Freedom loving forces have bent over backwards to avoid killing billions of people. Civilization encourages people to act like a virus . . . consuming all the natural resources, multiplying, and then moving to another area once everything is gone.

If I was a pessimistic as you are implying, I would say it was humanity that acts like a virus. I am not saying this. I am saying Civilization is the disease.

Humans should be more tribal and feudal . . . embracing the outdoors more. Watching a fire and hearing a good story is just as good as watching telivision . . . and studies indicate that a subject's brain waves during both activities . . . are identical.

Dear JJR,

Implications are obviously not your strong suit. How do plan on feeding six billion people after you destroy "civilisation"? Do you imagine civilisation exists "just for fun"?

Cpl Ferro

[Cylinder]

Immagine if we had people working together to make compost.

I don't like making compost. Do I still get fed?

[cicatrix]

Animals know enough to work in packs . . . while the majority of humans remain afraid to be part of anything more permanent than themselves.


This thread is humorous. "Some" humans remain afraid to be part of anything more permanent than themselves... like civilized society. Come join us :)

I think I'll enjoy a round of golf content in the knowledge I'm free to do so, while my society grows more food than my country's population can even eat.

ETA: Dude, I don't even play golf, but you got me wanting to.

[JJR]

You have not answered my question. Had you not considered the issues I asked you about prior to posting your suggestion or is your suggestion not meant to be taken seriously?

Okay. Grandpa's back yard was about 20 feet by 40 feet. That's 800 square feet. You could feed 5 people every day with that. The golf courses are 20 times that size. So . . . you could feed at least 100 people with one golf course.

Probably more. We have dozens of golf courses here in San Diego.

Oh. We also raised bees so you'd be getting free honey out of the deal. The bees do all the work.

[JJR]

Dear JJR,

Implications are obviously not your strong suit. How do plan on feeding six billion people after you destroy "civilisation"? Do you imagine civilisation exists "just for fun"?

Cpl Ferro

Agiculture feeds those people. You don't have to destroy agriculture to destroy what most people call "civilization" . . . just cities.

[JJR]

I don't like making compost. Do I still get fed?

You're like someone from the 90s saying they don't like to recycle. Those same people now use the blue recycle trash can without thinking about it.

[JJR]

This thread is humorous. "Some" humans remain afraid to be part of anything more permanent than themselves... like civilized society. Come join us :)

I think I'll enjoy a round of golf content in the knowledge I'm free to do so, while my society grows more food than my country's population can even eat.

ETA: Dude, I don't even play golf, but you got me wanting to.

Frisbee golf is more fun . . . and you can set up a course anywhere. As usual, the environmentalist offers alternatives to what we do . . . instead of just saying that what we do is wrong. The "hole" is above ground so it can be moved.

I fed my whole troup today with corn and potatoes. Really delicious with butter, garlic powder, chilli powder, and black pepper on the potatoes with cheese and salsa. We used to grow potatoes and corn back at my Grandpa's house.

We really can do what I am suggesting. We have the ability to make people really happy . . . and the people will do most of the work themselves. They are just being led astray by the bad example of corrupt, selfish, amoral folks.

[Gurdur]

JJR, Themroc, it's just so you.

Mind you, I kinda like the getting rid of golf-courses.

[JJR]

JJR, Themroc, it's just so you.

Mind you, I kinda like the getting rid of golf-courses.

Unfortuneately we'd be saving the lives or rich people. An increasing number of golfers are struck by lightning each year. The problem is so bad that "storm warning" sirens have been constructed and placed where all can hear them on the course.

Shocking, I know. :eek:

EDIT: What is Themroc?

[Gurdur]

An increasing number of golfers are struck by lightning each year.

You don't need to waste the corpses. Themroc, JJR, Themroc, it really is so you. Look it up. It's just so you, right down to the lack of recognisable morphosyntactical semantics.

[CplFerro]

Agiculture feeds those people. You don't have to destroy agriculture to destroy what most people call "civilization" . . . just cities.

Dear JJR,

And why do you think cities exist? How can a high-tech economy exist without industry, and, thus cities? Where will the billions of city dwellers live, in this new, incredibly inefficient economy you are suggesting?

Cpl Ferro

[JJR]

Dear JJR,

And why do you think cities exist? How can a high-tech economy exist without industry, and, thus cities? Where will the billions of city dwellers live, in this new, incredibly inefficient economy you are suggesting?

Cpl Ferro

Eventually we will all live a more rural existence . . . with the exception of those that live in minicities and "think tank" all day and mainain the space shuttles that service the moon colonies. In the meantime feeding hungry people in our cities and paying more attention to education when our citizens are young are issues of critical import. This is all pretty much just like having a recycle trash can available . . . nothing too radical and it would boost morale.

Always remember that in Norway (I was just there) they have really fancy restaurants with well-dressed diners who owned very expensive looking cars. In other words, Socialist ideas can be used without brutal sacrifice . . . life goes on quite normally.

The only difference I could see between an American restaurant and a Norwegian one was the statue of a . . . very good looking nude young man in an artistic pose near the entrance in the restaurant in Norway. I feel that this statue in no way affected the "looseness" the diners enjoyed as respected citizens or their yearly salary.

[Cylinder]

You're like someone from the 90s saying they don't like to recycle. Those same people now use the blue recycle trash can without thinking about it.

So, in your model, problems like the one I cited are simply left to resolve themselves? I'm having trouble understanding that part.

[JJR]

So, in your model, problems like the one I cited are simply left to resolve themselves? I'm having trouble understanding that part.

I think you're saying, "I don't want to contribute by making compost. I don't want to work. Do I still get to eat?"

The answer is that EVERYONE WORKS. Everyone has to contribute something, whatever it may be.

Seriously . . . how hard is it to pitch your egg shell into the compost trash can instead of the regular trash can? Not very hard at all, about the same ammount of kinetic energy is required, and about the same number of ATP "energy" molecules are used.

[JJR]

I was just discussing this thread with a friend, and he reminded me of one particular golf course that is absolutely HUGE. Something like that could be used for cheap housing AND growing food . . . unless of course you just set up farms out there where we have the ostrich farms on the city limits. There is plenty of farmland out there.

As for the huge golf course . . . studios. On a personal note I find a huge golf course like that to be nothing but a big solid insult to people who work for a living.

[Boo]

snip

I fed my whole troup today with corn and potatoes. Really delicious with butter, garlic powder, chilli powder, and black pepper on the potatoes with cheese and salsa. We used to grow potatoes and corn back at my Grandpa's house.

snip


Who is powdering your garlic and chillis? Should we presume you also have a cow or two for the butter and cheese or does the civilized store down the street provide those things?



Boo

[JJR]

Who is powdering your garlic and chillis? Should we presume you also have a cow or two for the butter and cheese or does the civilized store down the street provide those things?



Boo

This is California. California has happy cows.


Moo

M'kay??

[Puppycow]

But why would a 'primitive' use the internets?

[JJR]

But why would a 'primitive' use the internets?

MODERN primitive.

You are confusing the word, "primitive" with "stupid" or "retard". Why would a retard use the internet? He would not, and he would not be something to aspire to.

Why would someone who wishes to live in harmony with nature, believes in healthy breeding practices and the idea of good genetics improving humanity use the internet? Why, to spread the good word and pitch in to healthen the gene pool, of course.

The gene pool is something that is more permanent than myself. If I didn't do that, I would only be an infant avoiding pain. All you have to do is something . . . anything, really to help the future and you can consider yourself grown.

Oh, and even a log cabin can have a computer in it . . . thanks to the sillicon revolution.

[PopeTom]

But why would a 'primitive' use the internets?

Clearly he must be using Mosaic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_%28web_browser%29).

[PopeTom]

Since Sparta is DEAD, yes, it sounds scary. I'ld rather be much more stronger than Sparta myself.


JJR clearly needs to read up on the Helots before advocating being anything like the Spartans.

[JJR]

You two are silly. It's like the old Amish joke commedians on TV use, "I can make fun of the Amish all I want to because they DON'T WATCH TELIVISION!!!"

Mennannites use electricity, and a time when people live in harmony with nature but will also have a computer and other futuristic things in their home is comming. Don't be afraid to face the future.

Guitar, sweetmeats, big campfires . .. milk and honey. Interestingly, there will still be 2 classes of people . . . but intelligence will not be such a badge of honor and something to brag about in the future. The ability will be seen as an asset, no more. In fact, brains are a little freakish to most people.

Yes. We're freeeeeaks.

It's okay. Everybody's different.

[JJR]

JJR clearly needs to read up on the Helots before advocating being anything like the Spartans.

I pick and choose what I want from history to build upon . .. like a salad bar. Just because they decided to act like Man the Killer Ape at some point doesn't mean we will.

The difference between clean living, stargazing common folk and loud, irritated warmongers is obvious. Again, confusing personal dicipline and brutality is a mistake.

We're relaxed and happy . . . we test each other now and then to see if we are still "hard" but that's about it. We read a lot.

[Cain]

It's a shame we got you instead of Nick.

[Darat]

Okay. Grandpa's back yard was about 20 feet by 40 feet. That's 800 square feet. You could feed 5 people every day with that. The golf courses are 20 times that size. So . . . you could feed at least 100 people with one golf course.



Where's that figure from - it seems a rather small amount of land to be able to feed 5 people on every day for a year. Plus it would I presume be a very limited and not very varied diet?


Probably more. We have dozens of golf courses here in San Diego.


How many people live in San Diego?


Oh. We also raised bees so you'd be getting free honey out of the deal. The bees do all the work.

Not true, whilst the raw material is produced by the bees there is still quite a bit of human effort involved in the production of what we call honey.

[JJR]

Where's that figure from - it seems a rather small amount of land to be able to feed 5 people on every day for a year. Plus it would I presume be a very limited and not very varied diet?

Possibly. I meant for it to supplement the average diet, not replace it alltogether.

How many people live in San Diego?

A couple of million. We have plenty of farmland out near the city limits.

Not true, whilst the raw material is produced by the bees there is still quite a bit of human effort involved in the production of what we call honey.

Not really. You just put on the suit, smoke out the bees with a smoker, pull out the shelves of honeycomb, de-cap the hexagons, and plop the shelves in the centrifuge. Just a little spinning gets the honey out.

[JJR]

It's a shame we got you instead of Nick.

Nick uses the internet, too. He just chats with punk rock teens like himself. He's only 18.

He's very young, thin, and wide-eyed.

[Darat]

Possibly. I meant for it to supplement the average diet, not replace it alltogether.


So you are saying that you will remove the golf course to provide some additional supplementary food to less than a thousand people? Who will decide who those people are to be?



A couple of million. We have plenty of farmland out near the city limits.


So you will close the golf courses to provide some additional supplements for less than a thousand people out of a couple of a million and of course stop (presumably) thousands of people doing something they enjoyed.

Your ideal society sounds to be elitist not primitive.


Not really. You just put on the suit, smoke out the bees with a smoker, pull out the shelves of honeycomb, de-cap the hexagons, and plop the shelves in the centrifuge. Just a little spinning gets the honey out.

Who makes the suit, who makes the shelves, who makes the hive, who makes the centrifuge and so on?

[Tailgater]

Humans should be more tribal and feudal . . . embracing the outdoors more. Watching a fire and hearing a good story is just as good as watching telivision . . . and studies indicate that a subject's brain waves during both activities . . . are identical.

I bet a few billion campires every week would be great for nature.

[Tailgater]

I'd deter their antisocial behavior . . . making them much happier and more productive citizens.

No, you wouldn't. All the people unhappy with your version of civilization would revolt, kill off your tribe, and use your space for a golf course. Should be easy with no police or military.

[JJR]

So you are saying that you will remove the golf course to provide some additional supplementary food to less than a thousand people? Who will decide who those people are to be?

Actually I think cheap housing would be better for the golf course . .. especially this really big one my friend reminded me of. We need to see some studios there . . . it's all expensive condos and apartments in that surrounding area and that ain't fair.

Seriously, man . . . just over in Coronado the rich have so much power that they had their street permanently altered. They got speed bumps put in every 40 feet.

Having your car, your house, or your face altered . . . you aren't that rich. Get your street altered and you obviously have some clout . . . and you are abusing it. Abuse of power.

Coronado is interesting because they have a base out there with a building that is shaped like a swastika. Oh, and we could still have lots of farms built on the city limits. Like I said, there's plenty of farm land out there and I don't think even someone as skeptical as you could claim that the weather in California isn't right for farming . . . unless you really need a link to proof that California has great weather.

So you will close the golf courses to provide some additional supplements for less than a thousand people out of a couple of a million and of course stop (presumably) thousands of people doing something they enjoyed.

Your ideal society sounds to be elitist not primitive.

Nearly all people consider themselves elite when they have obtained all of the karma knowledge, etc. that I have. I'm the only person in the clique I know who occasionally doesn't feel that good about himself . . . but I have a reason to be grumpy and I've told people to ignore my visciousness when I'm like that. They will do as I ask.

After a while you don't feel that elite . . . and are only mildly disgusted when you perceive the larger ammounts of fear that other folks always have. It's kind of like working with someone with bad BO . .. where the body language conveying fear is the stink. Smelling the fear, you are just motivated to make it go away.

Really, I've had bouts of fear and it's extremely painful. I hate that feeling and courage is a really good pill to swallow so you don't feel that partcular sensation as often.

Who makes the suit, who makes the shelves, who makes the hive, who makes the centrifuge and so on?

Oh, I could get the Amish or Mennanites to do all of that. I'll bet some of 'em raise bees . . . and that means they did it all themselves. It's part of their flavor of Catholisism.

People with the dicipline to follow the straight and narrow path are cool. I just think they are indulging a little too much in peer-pressure fear which is keeping them back a little with their personal dicipline and phillosophy department.

As far as housing and attitude toward hard work, though . . . the Amish and Mennanites are ahead of us. We city folk are becomming too domesticated.

[JJR]

I bet a few billion campires every week would be great for nature.

Hope you enjoy the lowered sperm count you now have thanks to all the plastic you've swallowed and absorbed into your skin. Plastic just like TVs are made out of. Wonder what your decendants will think of it in 5 generations . .. whups! Guess we'll never know.

Wow. After the TV is made back at the factory they're spilling waste into the water supply! With the wonderful effluent pumped into our rivers and streams, we can all enjoy being hermaphrodites, too. Just love those estrogenic compounds!!

EDIT: Thanks for doing your part, guy. Here's the weird part - I don't have to lift a finger to destroy your whole ecosystem. In fact, if I send anything your way it's doing you a favor because otherwise you'd be dead in very little time.

[JJR]

No, you wouldn't. All the people unhappy with your version of civilization would revolt, kill off your tribe, and use your space for a golf course. Should be easy with no police or military.

You didn't read the first post. I'm not the Rational Anarchist, I'm the Modern Primitive. I believe we should always have police. You can't destroy that institution . . . you can only reduce it.

And no one would try and revolt against my tribe. We're too busy always finding answers to whatever the problem is, and we are strong enough to counter any possible ammount of visciousness you have at your disposal to dish out.

We will dish out more.

[CplFerro]

Eventually we will all live a more rural existence . . . with the exception of those that live in minicities and "think tank" all day and mainain the space shuttles that service the moon colonies. In the meantime feeding hungry people in our cities and paying more attention to education when our citizens are young are issues of critical import. This is all pretty much just like having a recycle trash can available . . . nothing too radical and it would boost morale.

Dear JJR,

Not everyone can live on a farm. What you're describing is the suburbs. Six billion people living the suburbs? Where are the manufacturing hubs, the trade hubs? That is why cities exist in the first place--they generate wealth by taking in raw materials and processing it into useful artefacts.

I recommend this book, for anyone who hates urbanism as it is, but has never been given an alternative that doesn't involve abandoning cities (and industrial economy).

How Cities Work (http://www.amazon.com/How-Cities-Work-Suburbs-Sprawl/dp/0292752407)

Cpl Ferro

[WildCat]

And no one would try and revolt against my tribe. We're too busy always finding answers to whatever the problem is, and we are strong enough to counter any possible ammount of visciousness you have at your disposal to dish out.

We will dish out more.
So Primitopia is populated by many tribes fighting over the scraps left behind after most of the infrastructure supporting our civilization is destroyed? And living off of subsistence farming?

No thanks, I prefer a country where millions don't starve to death every year if they aren't killed by tribal conflicts.

[Tailgater]

Hope you enjoy the lowered sperm count you now have thanks to all the plastic you've swallowed and absorbed into your skin. Plastic just like TVs are made out of. Wonder what your decendants will think of it in 5 generations . .. whups! Guess we'll never know.

Wow. After the TV is made back at the factory they're spilling waste into the water supply! With the wonderful effluent pumped into our rivers and streams, we can all enjoy being hermaphrodites, too. Just love those estrogenic compounds!!

EDIT: Thanks for doing your part, guy. Here's the weird part - I don't have to lift a finger to destroy your whole ecosystem. In fact, if I send anything your way it's doing you a favor because otherwise you'd be dead in very little time.

Which has nothing to do with billions of campfires sprawled out over the globe after 6+billion people "spread out" and start clearing land for crops. I never said the world we have is great, but I am saying that your world isn't either.

[Tailgater]

You didn't read the first post. I'm not the Rational Anarchist, I'm the Modern Primitive. I believe we should always have police. You can't destroy that institution . . . you can only reduce it.

And no one would try and revolt against my tribe. We're too busy always finding answers to whatever the problem is, and we are strong enough to counter any possible ammount of visciousness you have at your disposal to dish out.

We will dish out more.

If you really believe that, then your delusion is complete. Opposing forces who do not care about "the natural balance", will use technology to eliminate you. You can either choose to compete with them or become trampled like a third world country.

[JJR]

Dear JJR,

Not everyone can live on a farm. What you're describing is the suburbs. Six billion people living the suburbs? Where are the manufacturing hubs, the trade hubs? That is why cities exist in the first place--they generate wealth by taking in raw materials and processing it into useful artefacts.

I recommend this book, for anyone who hates urbanism as it is, but has never been given an alternative that doesn't involve abandoning cities (and industrial economy).

How Cities Work (http://www.amazon.com/How-Cities-Work-Suburbs-Sprawl/dp/0292752407)

Cpl Ferro

Introducing a few communal farms is not destroying cities abruptly. Scandanavia is very Socialist, yet has . . . cities. At this point in history, the construction of MORE buildings is necessary . .. such as the cheap housing I mentioned (studios) and I also have the, "Dave & Busters" plan.

It's something I learned from the Mormons. Since they don't drink or smoke they can't go to bars and other parties . . . so they have "Gaming centers" where they congregate during the day to play video games and other games (such as you might find at a rec center) and at night they have movie nights and dancing. Facinating . . . and it brings people together . . . makes them want to leave the house. In the old days, that was the main prupouse of the church . . . since the Pioneers lived miles apart and would have gotten "cabin fever" without the picnics and other gatherings.

Building more now to reduce later.

EDIT: We should have a free Dave & Busters every 10 miles where people can go to dine by a roaring fire, play video games, and drink. Let the merryment commence!!

[WildCat]

EDIT: We should have a free Dave & Busters every 10 miles where people can go to dine by a roaring fire, play video games, and drink. Let the merryment commence!!
Who will manufacture and distribute the games? Who will maintain them? Who will supply the electricity to run them? Etc etc etc.

[JJR]

So Primitopia is populated by many tribes fighting over the scraps left behind after most of the infrastructure supporting our civilization is destroyed? And living off of subsistence farming?

No thanks, I prefer a country where millions don't starve to death every year if they aren't killed by tribal conflicts.

No . . . unification is guaranteed. People will love their homeland.

Nothing will be destroyed. Just reduced. Reduce, reuse, recycle. :cool:

[Tailgater]

EDIT: We should have a free Dave & Busters every 10 miles where people can go to dine by a roaring fire, play video games, and drink. Let the merryment commence!!

I'll help you comment on yourself.

Hope you enjoy the lowered sperm count you now have thanks to all the plastic you've swallowed and absorbed into your skin. Plastic just like TVs are made out of. Wonder what your decendants will think of it in 5 generations . .. whups! Guess we'll never know.

Wow. After the TV is made back at the factory they're spilling waste into the water supply! With the wonderful effluent pumped into our rivers and streams, we can all enjoy being hermaphrodites, too. Just love those estrogenic compounds!!

EDIT: Thanks for doing your part, guy. Here's the weird part - I don't have to lift a finger to destroy your whole ecosystem. In fact, if I send anything your way it's doing you a favor because otherwise you'd be dead in very little time.

[JJR]

Who will manufacture and distribute the games? Who will maintain them? Who will supply the electricity to run them? Etc etc etc.

You're confusing the two time periods. For now, the Gaming centers are built and powered and supplied the same way any other building is.

[JJR]

Which has nothing to do with billions of campfires sprawled out over the globe after 6+billion people "spread out" and start clearing land for crops. I never said the world we have is great, but I am saying that your world isn't either.

Yes, it is. The sky is yellow instead of red at sunset due to population control.

[JJR]

If you really believe that, then your delusion is complete. Opposing forces who do not care about "the natural balance", will use technology to eliminate you. You can either choose to compete with them or become trampled like a third world country.

Uh . . . so far the United States has the most superior technology. Besides Sputnik we've always been the best.

What's your damage?

[Tailgater]

Yes, it is. The sky is yellow instead of red at sunset due to population control.

Translation required.

[JJR]

I'll help you comment on yourself.

Now YOU are confusing the present . . . with the future. I never said we'd have actual Dave & Busters in the future. I think we'd have more guitar and old-fashioned love & merryment.

Maybe more hunting. :cool:

[JJR]

Translation required.

You are obviously young and do not remember yellow sunsets. They are very red now thanks to pollution. We also caused the ozone hole. Just F.Y.I.

[Tailgater]

Uh . . . so far the United States has the most superior technology. Besides Sputnik we've always been the best.

What's your damage?

You mix the present and the future in your overall vision with no seperation in timeline, so it's obvious that people posting will do the same. Who said you would be having access to US technology past or present in your new society?

[Tailgater]

You are obviously young and do not remember yellow sunsets. They are very red now thanks to pollution. We also caused the ozone hole. Just F.Y.I.

Hmm, I live in a very rural area. Very clear skies. I can see most of the stars at night. Sky is usually red when the sun sets. Been like that for the last 36 years I've lived here and about 82 years since my granfather lived here. Otherwise, it's blue.

Evidence pollution caused the red skies? Not redder skies. RED skies.

And you never really explained what that has to do with population control.

[WildCat]

I think we'd have more guitar and old-fashioned love & merryment.
I think the whole mass-starvation that would ensue under your economic model might put a real damper on the old-fashioned love and merriment.

[Tailgater]

Now YOU are confusing the present . . . with the future. I never said we'd have actual Dave & Busters in the future. I think we'd have more guitar and old-fashioned love & merryment.

Maybe more hunting. :cool:

You were the one that mentioned video games. Read it again.

"We should have a free Dave & Busters every 10 miles where people can go to dine by a roaring fire, play video games, and drink."

The sentence is future tense.

[JJR]

You mix the present and the future in your overall vision with no seperation in timeline, so it's obvious that people posting will do the same. Who said you would be having access to US technology past or present in your new society?

Now you're being ridiculous and trying to make it sound like I want to succede from the union. I do not. I am one with the United States, dude.

[JJR]

Hmm, I live in a very rural area. Very clear skies. I can see most of the stars at night. Sky is usually red when the sun sets. Been like that for the last 36 years I've lived here and about 82 years since my granfather lived here. Otherwise, it's blue.

Evidence pollution caused the red skies? Not redder skies. RED skies.

And you never really explained what that has to do with population control.

Less people . . . less natural resourses consumed . .. less environmental damage.

[JJR]

I think the whole mass-starvation that would ensue under your economic model might put a real damper on the old-fashioned love and merriment.

No. That would only happen if I had a problem with agriculture. I have no problem with any man growing his own garden on his own property. Personally, I think people should love growing things and should experience the joy of eating something you grew yourself. If you want to talk about the folly of nationalizing banks we might be aproaching something close to constructive critisism, but otherwise you are just being ridiculous and hurling out unfounded assertions.

Your erronious statements made about my ideas are false.

[JJR]

This is an accidental double post created due to connection issues. Please ignore it.

[JJR]

You were the one that mentioned video games. Read it again.

"We should have a free Dave & Busters every 10 miles where people can go to dine by a roaring fire, play video games, and drink."

The sentence is future tense.

In the immediate future, we should do what the Mormons do (Gaming centers) . . . the Mormons, like Modern Primitives, attempt to live like more primitive people (the Pioneers) as much as possible while still conforming to standards set by the modern society they are living in.

[WildCat]

No. That would only happen if I had a problem with agriculture. I have no problem with any man growing his own garden on his own property. Personally, I think people should love growing things and the joy of eating something you grew yourself.
Where has subsistence agriculture (which is what you're describing) ever been able to produce more food than commercial agriculture? Rather, it is a recipe for famine. There is not enough arable land for inefficient subsistence farms to produce enough food for everyone. And I'll just mention problems with climate differences (not everyone lives in Zone 10 you know!) and how limited you are with geography as to what you can plant.

Your erronious statements made about my ideas are false.
If you advocate subsistence farming you are setting the conditions for a famine of 3rd world scale.

[JJR]

Where has subsistence agriculture (which is what you're describing) ever been able to produce more food than commercial agriculture? Rather, it is a recipe for famine. There is not enough arable land for inefficient subsistence farms to produce enough food for everyone. And I'll just mention problems with climate differences (not everyone lives in Zone 10 you know!) and how limited you are with geography as to what you can plant.

If you advocate subsistence farming you are setting the conditions for a famine of 3rd world scale.

No, I would not force people to grow all of their own food. Again, I am not against agriculture. That is not my focus and I never stated that it is.

I never said, "I hate farmers" . . . because farmers are cool.

[WildCat]

No, I would not force people to grow all of their own food. Again, I am not against agriculture. That is not my focus and I never stated that it is.

I never said, "I hate farmers" . . . because farmers are cool.
You are just against the companies that make all those cool machines farmers use to bring in a crop?

[Tailgater]

In the immediate future, we should do what the Mormons do (Gaming centers) . . . the Mormons, like Modern Primitives, attempt to live like more primitive people (the Pioneers) as much as possible while still conforming to standards set by the modern society they are living in.

This is one of the clearest posts so far, but until the population of urban areas decrease, it would be impossible.

http://encarta.msn.com/fact_631504888/United_States_Facts_and_Figures.html

The population density of the US is 85 people per square mile. Take away areas with no potential agriculture and the number skyrockets. Take away land that can be, but is not yet, for agriculture and the number skyrockets again. I live near a high population of Amish. The land they live on is ALL open for agriculture. The US is rich when it comes to farmland. The same cannot be said for the rest of the world. Sprawling out into communal communities would require massive drops in population to work. Commercial agriculture, as WC stated, is required to feed 6 billion people, which cannot work when everyone is living on the land.

[JJR]

You are just against the companies that make all those cool machines farmers use to bring in a crop?

I already said that there would be minicities for production of everything needed. If you really want to clear everything up, I can post the 25 points of National Socialism. You can ignore the racist stuff if you want since I don't use it. Technichally speaking, then, my platform would be the . . I dunno 20 points instead of 25. I'm not sure how many points are racist, but I omit those.

Remember - what the German Worker's Party said was interesting and was very useful for dealing with an economic collapse. What they did was to abuse power and perform torturous medical experiments on Jewish children and other stupid stuff.

I've had plenty of Jewish people say, "Eric is no Nazi" because they know I will defend their right to live . .. pretty much as they are now. I mean, hey I want them to have a drink and some other fun but that's about it.

I've had Nazis say I'm no Nazi because I have sex with men. Things are obviously very different with me and my perspective on the phenomenon, and that's the bottom line.

I use what I find useful . .. and ignore the rest. I consider it to be immature and to have no place in modern politics.

[JJR]

This is one of the clearest posts so far, but until the population of urban areas decrease, it would be impossible.

http://encarta.msn.com/fact_631504888/United_States_Facts_and_Figures.html

The population density of the US is 85 people per square mile. Take away areas with no potential agriculture and the number skyrockets. Take away land that can be, but is not yet, for agriculture and the number skyrockets again. I live near a high population of Amish. The land they live on is ALL open for agriculture. The US is rich when it comes to farmland. The same cannot be said for the rest of the world. Sprawling out into communal communities would require massive drops in population to work. Commercial agriculture, as WC stated, is required to feed 6 billion people, which cannot work when everyone is living on the land.

Of course. With this many people you can't touch agriculture.

[PopeTom]

You are obviously young and do not remember yellow sunsets. They are very red now thanks to pollution. We also caused the ozone hole. Just F.Y.I.

You should probably read this (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/blue_sky.html) by one Mr. Phil Plait. Pay particular attention to the last paragraph.

While I am sure pollution could have an effect on the color of a sunset I'm sure a majority of them were red long before the industrial revolution.

[JJR]

You should probably read this (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/blue_sky.html) by one Mr. Phil Plait. Pay particular attention to the last paragraph.

While I am sure pollution could have an effect on the color of a sunset I'm sure a majority of them were red long before the industrial revolution.

Interesting . .. so the purples and greens we see over incinerators are just photons bouncing off of nitrogen and oxygen molecules, too I suppose. Got any theories "debunking" golbal warming? You shoud go work for Bush.

I hear Bush selected his own group of scientists . . . and they still said global warming is real. Naturally, he ignored them.

Maybe we're just comming out of an Ice Age, dude. After all, dinosaurs couldn't exist without much more food . . . indicating that this is normally a jungle planet . . . the primordeal world of Pangea.

No doubt, brotha. ;)

[PopeTom]

You specifically sited the red color of sunsets as being indicative of a problem with pollution. I pointed out to you a reputable source that suggests that you are wrong. If you know someplace on-line that lists the location of incinerators and one happens to be in driving distance of my home I will gladly go take a look to see if, as you say, there are any special purple or green colors in the sky.

I am uncertain how or even why you decided to connect this to the AGW issue or how you could even guess my stance on the issue from my post.

[JJR]

You specifically sited the red color of sunsets as being indicative of a problem with pollution. I pointed out to you a reputable source that suggests that you are wrong. If you know someplace on-line that lists the location of incinerators and one happens to be in driving distance of my home I will gladly go take a look to see if, as you say, there are any special purple or green colors in the sky.

I am uncertain how or even why you decided to connect this to the AGW issue or how you could even guess my stance on the issue from my post.

I'm not guessing. I'm suggesting that you would argue over the validity of a news story talking about pollution in Mexico City over the huddled forms of people inhalling oxygen from gas masks.

They have gas masks available these days because . . . well I guess I can't say it's because the pollution is so bad. I guess it's just a courtesy provided by the city for . . . some reason.

We broke the sky. The ozone hole is causing cancer and smog is choking our children.

[quixotecoyote]

I'm not guessing. I'm suggesting that you would argue over the validity of a news story talking about pollution in Mexico City over the huddled forms of people inhalling oxygen from gas masks.

They have gas masks available these days because . . . well I guess I can't say it's because the pollution is so bad. I guess it's just a courtesy provided by the city for . . . some reason.

We broke the sky. The ozone hole is causing cancer and smog is choking our children.

All of which has nothing to do with the claim being questioned.

[JJR]

All of which has nothing to do with the claim being questioned.

Is . . . is this Regulation Charley's accomplice Literal Man? My God! How are they keeping the Forces of Norman going without you two?

[PopeTom]

I'm not guessing. I'm suggesting that you would argue over the validity of a news story talking about pollution in Mexico City over the huddled forms of people inhalling oxygen from gas masks.

They have gas masks available these days because . . . well I guess I can't say it's because the pollution is so bad. I guess it's just a courtesy provided by the city for . . . some reason.

We broke the sky. The ozone hole is causing cancer and smog is choking our children.

I would want to make sure that the news story was reporting its information factually. Especially if they invoke 'the poor defenseless children' as that usually smacks of sensational BS used just to garner ratings.

Not to mention that I think you are mistaken as to how gas masks work.

Do you have a link to a story about the poor defenseless children in Mexico City needing to beg for Pesos so that they can buy gas masks? Or are the gas masks government issue?

[JJR]

I would want to make sure that the news story was reporting its information factually. Especially if they invoke 'the poor defenseless children' as that usually smacks of sensational BS used just to garner ratings.

Not to mention that I think you are mistaken as to how gas masks work.

Do you have a link to a story about the poor defenseless children in Mexico City needing to beg for Pesos so that they can buy gas masks? Or are the gas masks government issue?

The oxygen masks are provided by the city. It's their way of compensating for their joke of an E.P.A. . . . I forget the name of it but crooked businessmen from the United States bribe them so they can use toxic crap and just dump it . . . and there is no glass wall between Mexico . . . and California . .. where some of the richest people live.

Yes . . . the rich are choking on their own greed. Poetic justice I suppose.

EDIT: I learned this from a training video from Greenpeace that I copied and took home. It's about the evils of N.A.F.T.A. . . . the North American Free Trade Agreement. I think that's right.

[JJR]

Dude, it's like, "Okay, you want to be a little loose about where you dump your toxic waste . . . but do you have to deffacate where you eat?? You're choking on your own waste." Hey, I'd rather have my supper table devoid of feces, thanks.

EDIT: What I mean by that, of course, is that there is no glass wall between Mexico and California. I'm breathing toxic soup right now, and it sucks!!!

[PopeTom]

Dude, it's like, "Okay, you want to be a little loose about where you dump your toxic waste . . . but do you have to deffacate where you eat?? You're choking on your own waste." Hey, I'd rather have my supper table devoid of feces, thanks.

EDIT: What I mean by that, of course, is that there is no glass wall between Mexico and California. I'm breathing toxic soup right now, and it sucks!!!

Maybe if you write a letter to the Mexican government they will send you a gas mask?

[JJR]

Maybe if you write a letter to the Mexican government they will send you a gas mask?

Sounds like an excellent Greenpeace demonstration. Recently, instead of a hippie "sit in" Greenpeace held a "DIE in" where everyone wore full chemo-suits with gas masks and lay down as if dead. They had a sign saying, "New ozone hole thanks to Dupont".

Dupont is of course an enemy because they refused to allow the, "Greenfreeze" refirgerator to be sold in the United States. Greenfreeze uses other means of refrigeration other than CFCs . . . Cluero Fluero Carbons which of course destroy ozone molecules. The Greenfreeze refrigerator is easily available in Europe . .. all over Europe.

"Yeah! Hey, buddy, want a gas mask? Thank Mexico for the toxic waste you are breathing. Let's write and aske 'em for one!!"

Sounds good.

[juniper_ann]

I'm very confused, JJR. You seem to talk about revolution, but your concrete ideas seem to boil down to more camping, more community centers, and a little extra hobby farming, with some little disturbing asides about breeding. You talk about primitivism, but to you that seems to mean camping, masochistic "rites" and log cabins with computers in them. Log cabins with computers is not a lifestyle, it's an aesthetic.

And then you come up with this:
"And no one would try and revolt against my tribe. We're too busy always finding answers to whatever the problem is, and we are strong enough to counter any possible ammount of visciousness you have at your disposal to dish out."

Which makes me think that you've confused JREF for a role-playing game.

What kind of future are you aiming for and how do you intend to get there? Violent revolution? Social revolution? A third party coming to power? Armageddon? What?

[WildCat]

Cluero Fluero Carbons which of course destroy ozone molecules.
You might want to learn to spell what you claim to be informed about.

[JJR]

You might want to learn to spell what you claim to be informed about.

You might want to study phonetics and not be so picky. I am a terrible speller when I am being creative though. Chloro Floro Carbons are the issue, which of course are organochlorines which of course are 2,3,7,8 tetra-chloro dibenzo P dioxin. Or . . . "dioxin".

[JJR]

I'm very confused, JJR. You seem to talk about revolution, but your concrete ideas seem to boil down to more camping, more community centers, and a little extra hobby farming, with some little disturbing asides about breeding. You talk about primitivism, but to you that seems to mean camping, masochistic "rites" and log cabins with computers in them. Log cabins with computers is not a lifestyle, it's an aesthetic.

And then you come up with this:
"And no one would try and revolt against my tribe. We're too busy always finding answers to whatever the problem is, and we are strong enough to counter any possible ammount of visciousness you have at your disposal to dish out."

Which makes me think that you've confused JREF for a role-playing game.

What kind of future are you aiming for and how do you intend to get there? Violent revolution? Social revolution? A third party coming to power? Armageddon? What?

Please ignore any point that is racist (http://www4.stormfront.org/posterity/ns/25pts.html)

That's the original 25 Points of National Socialism - not the American Nazi Party or anything else provocative. I think, in the interest of history, the link is interesting because these points converted a broken, dying state into the most efficient and powerful state in the world. It took the entire world to stop the Nazis.

Seriously, anything that says, "Jews can't be citizens" should be ignored. In America, the largest group that lobbys Congress is Jewish American . . . and I really have no problem with that.

Delete the racism and you have a facinating political platform. They wished to be in harmony with Nature. In a sense, they represented an almost biological revolution.

Don't fear Nature. She'd rather deal you pleasure than pain.

I have a theory that Nature gets carried away with pain. She still thinks we are a delicate little bag of nucleic acid and gives us too much feedback. When we get old, we really realize this.

Keep right on with the easy living and before too long we will be able to do more work and enjoy recreation without paying so much for it. I have no problem altering Nature's plan a little. We would be more efficient if a blister or a hangnail didn't stop a man from digging a post hole or some other job.

[PopeTom]

Delete the racism and you have a facinating political platform. They wished to be in harmony with Nature. In a sense, they represented an almost biological revolution.



How did the Nazis go about being 'in harmony with nature'? Total war fought with modern mechanical means has never appeared to me to get along with nature one little bit.


Don't fear Nature. She'd rather deal you pleasure than pain.


Nature doesn't care about you, or anything else for that matter. I'm unaware of any evidence that it is capable of conscious though or feeling.


We would be more efficient if a blister or a hangnail didn't stop a man from digging a post hole or some other job.


What kind of wimps do you work with, I don't know any manual laborers where any such minor nuisance even slow them down.

[JJR]

How did the Nazis go about being 'in harmony with nature'? Total war fought with modern mechanical means has never appeared to me to get along with nature one little bit.

You're talking about the war. I'm talking about the presentation of these points, the speeches about them given, and the discussions within the country of Germany. The thoughts, the political concepts, and the ideology itself.

We're talking about 2 seperate things. If all you see is war, we might as well have a discussion on the alchohol engines used and the construction of a Sherman Tank. Or a lengthy discussion of the internal combustion engine itself.

Nowhere near the point. Logical fallacy "missing the point".

Nature doesn't care about you, or anything else for that matter. I'm unaware of any evidence that it is capable of conscious though or feeling.

Nature, the physical universe, etc. doesn't even care about intelligence . . . it cares about survival. So, in a way Nature cares about you but it's a genetic kind of thing and not a warm, fuzzy mamillian thing. Well, maybe a little fuzzy.

What kind of wimps do you work with, I don't know any manual laborers where any such minor nuisance even slow them down.

I was making a point, but a really nasty blister can stop you from working. The point is that the ammount of pain we feel today leads to inneficient work patterns. In the future, we will feel it less just as our brains will decrease in size if we do not excercise them and rely on computers and calculators and such to do all of our mental work for us.

A hunter-gatherer (Man's natural state) has dozens of plants memorized. The forest or jungle is his supermarket, and he knows what he can eat and what he can not. Even though we do incredible things, the average person thinks much less than our "primitive" ancestors.

[JJR]

DISCLAIMER: Again, I don't believe in the 25 points, because some of them are just racist. That's why I'm not a Nazi. White Supremicists seem to want to keep minorities around to torture them . . . and lots of Nazi guards at Concentration Camps had sexual relations with the people . . . they alegedly dispised.

Well well. What are we going to name the baby? Sounds like something is rotten in the state of Denmark or somethin' theya. Somethin's goin' ooooon now.