Why fighting truthers?

[Oliver]

I don't really understand the concept of fighting Truthers and here is why:

They love to believe in conspiracies to comprehend all the bad things that happen in the World and which they don't understand. Now the US government has indeed a very long history of keeping things secret, which surely helps to create new rumors - and therefore new Believers, too.

Also TV-Series like the X-Files do a lot of spread this message about "dirty secrets of the Government".

So why fighting Truthers and not the source of "Teh Troof" if the "Twoof" can't be stopped anyway by discussing with people who prefer to be believers?

It does, however, help to "reform" a handful of them, but experience and logic tells me that this is a senseless fight.

And above of that: Truthers are Believers just like Christians or Muslims, for example, too. Unfortunately, Truthers are much less dangerous for their environment in contrast to my examples.

What sense does it make to fight their believes nevertheless - if other types of belief are much more dangerous?

Now if you understand the senselessness in fighting Truthers by ignoring the sources of their believes, which is the social environment they're living in:

Is this for "mockery" reasons and entertainment? :confused:


(And I know some guys in here that think exactly this way, I was one of them.)

[Brainache]

I don't fight Truthers. I object to people lying to me. I generally use mockery.

I don't hate Truthers. I think they need educating.

[Hokulele]

Now if you understand the senselessness in fighting Truthers by ignoring the sources of their believes, which is the social environment they're living in:


If this statement is true, why aren't all of the people from the same environment truthers?

[Gravy]

For the same reasons that people disseminate information to counter the lies of Holocaust deniers and revisionists.

[firecoins]

"truthers" refuse to believe the obvious.

[Calcas]

For the same reasons that people disseminate information to counter the lies of Holocaust deniers and revisionists.

Damn Binglybert, I was going to answer but I don't think I could have said it as succinctly as that.

Bastage. :D

[Oliver]

If this statement is true, why aren't all of the people from the same environment truthers?


Because they weren't educated the same way - meaning that Woo is fun and parents and environment failed to educate about the Woo.

And besides of that, if I may use the US as an example, a secret Government, Christian Woo, reports about Ufwoos, conspiracy Movies and Series like X-Files are spreading the Woo.

And of course, lying politicians are also a good reason to disbelieve in one's government and to believe the Woo instead.

So essentially: To me it doesn't look like the Truthers are the Problem. Those who initiated or support the Woo, are the far bigger problem - and basically the source of the problem.

[Thunder]

Oliver, I don't understand you now. You used to go into the LC forum and attack the 911 Deniers beliefs. You used to do the same here. What happened? Are you really LIHIOP in the closet?

Their theories and beliefs are incorrect. They try to spread their lies to the American people. The spread of lies always needs to be fought.

Just imagine if JREF existed during the Nazi regime. If there were enough debunkers back then...maybe the Holocaust wouldn't have occured...=)

[Dog Town]

Also TV-Series like the X-Files do a lot of spread this message about "dirty secrets of the Government".


What is it with you, US hating twoofers, and fictional TV/Movies? They are fiction!
Maybe soaps, would be more your cup of tea. Lots of drama...

[Oliver]

Oliver, I don't understand you now. You used to go into the LC forum and attack the 911 Deniers beliefs. You used to do the same here. What happened? Are you really LIHIOP in the closet?

Their theories and beliefs are incorrect. They try to spread their lies to the American people. The spread of lies always needs to be fought.

Just imagine if JREF existed during the Nazi regime. If there were enough debunkers back then...maybe the Holocaust wouldn't have occured...=)


Well, besides the fact that the Holocaust was kept secret to the majority of Germany and that foreign Intelligence knew about it a long time before the war, I don't believe in MIHOP or LIHOP. I just see the senselessness in fighting the results instead the sources.

What is it with you, US hating twoofers, and fictional TV/Movies? They are fiction!
Maybe soaps, would be more your cup of tea. Lots of drama...


I know that, just like the Bible. But unfortunately, others love the Woo much more than we do.

[Hokulele]

So essentially: To me it doesn't look like the Truthers are the Problem. Those who initiated or support the Woo, are the far bigger problem - and basically the source of the problem.


Umm, it was my understanding that the Truthers are the ones initiating and supporting this particular woo. Or are you blaming their parents for not teaching them how to distinguish between fact and fiction, or for not teaching them critical thinking skills? See, if it really were just a problem of "secretive government", the X-Files, and such, there would be waaaaay more truthers than there are currently. Do not believe the polls and numbers claimed by the truther site, most Americans do not fall for that nonsense.

[T.A.M.]

Oliver, for me, the truthers are merely the vehicle. It is the message that I fight. If it were a single channel on TV promoting the same bunk, I would be on a forum debating what the channel was producing, I would be asking people to not watch it, or realize it for the crap it is...It just so happens the messengers are a bunch of halfwits, rebels with unjust cause, and nutty professors.

TAM:)

[A W Smith]

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

[R.Mackey]

Why fight those who fight Truthers, Oliver? What's it to you?

Personally, I only engage as long as there's some educational content. Or unless they really step out of bounds. I've seen you do that once or twice yourself. But I don't waste my time worrying about the annoyance thresholds of others, except in clearly pathological situations like Christophera or Craig Ranke. People feud over the 'net all the time. It's part of the fun.

[Oliver]

Umm, it was my understanding that the Truthers are the ones initiating and supporting this particular woo. Or are you blaming their parents for not teaching them how to distinguish between fact and fiction, or for not teaching them critical thinking skills? See, if it really were just a problem of "secretive government", the X-Files, and such, there would be waaaaay more truthers than there are currently. Do not believe the polls and numbers claimed by the truther site, most Americans do not fall for that nonsense.


Quite frankly, I guess the lack of education and the trauma of 9/11 are source of 9/11 conspiracy theories, combined with a general culture that spreads Woo about Ufos, secret societies, God's face in objects, ghosts, mysteries and stuff like that. So the Truthers are just a result of that - the underlying social sources are a completely different one.

Oliver, for me, the truthers are merely the vehicle. It is the message that I fight. If it were a single channel on TV promoting the same bunk, I would be on a forum debating what the channel was producing, I would be asking people to not watch it, or realize it for the crap it is...It just so happens the messengers are a bunch of halfwits, rebels with unjust cause, and nutty professors.

TAM:)


And from what I know about you, Tam - your intentions are very honest and sincere. But you also understand the complexity of the social environment that is the source of all these believes, don't you? Now while I agree that people get inspired by this particular Forum, for example - you also know that real Truthers would never accept the facts - even if the debunking surely helps to convert some of them. But what about the underlying social structure that initiates Woo-Thinking in the first place?

We? Last time I checked, you, and your US hating theories, were full on Woooooooo....
Right...Woolie?


Nope. And you might study the new rules as well.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."


Who are the good men? Take religion-Woo for example. Everyone claims they are the good men. It's a nice fallacy nevertheless.

[Oliver]

Why fight those who fight Truthers, Oliver? What's it to you?

Personally, I only engage as long as there's some educational content. Or unless they really step out of bounds. I've seen you do that once or twice yourself. But I don't waste my time worrying about the annoyance thresholds of others, except in clearly pathological situations like Christophera or Craig Ranke. People feud over the 'net all the time. It's part of the fun.


I don't fight the Truthers nor the Non-Truthers. Personally it is a waste of time since I know nearly everything I wanted to know about the conspiratorial allegations about the 9/11 CT's. So I moved on.

So your personal Intention mostly is entertainment. That's absolutely okay and it explains how you personally feel about my question, thank you for your honest answer. :)

[Redtail]

Part of it for me is entertainment. Another part is the fact that many here (and on other sites) are experts in fields I have an interest in, but not the love for that is needed to become an expert.

[Dog Town]

I'm merely asking you to concentrate towards the Issue itself.

You wan't people to explain, why they do this? This has had numerous threads! Some, I believe, you participated in! Why are you here, asking again? Are you just trying to explain why it's a waste of time? Again, why are you here?

[Oliver]

You wan't people to explain, why they do this? This has had numerous threads! Some, I believe, you participated in! Why are you here, asking again? Are you just trying to explain why it's a waste of time? Again, why are you here?


In essence why I'm asking? Because I understood a long time ago that Truthers aren't the Problem, it's the society in which Truthers "prosper". That's why I personally shifted to politics/social issues and left CT's behind because they are nonsense to me now.

So I'm just asking why others are still here: Do they know that it's pretty much senseless -and- do they understand the underlying problematic?
Or do they just want to have fun? (Which is pretty fine for me - but I doubt that everyone in here thinks this way - so I'm curious.)

[Dog Town]

So I'm just asking why others are still here: Do they know that it's pretty much senseless -and- do they understand the underlying problematic?
Or do they just want to have fun? (Which is pretty fine for me - but I doubt that everyone in here thinks this way - so I'm curious.)

Like a twoofer, you state things, like they are fact! When in reality, they are not! It is your opinion! You know what they say, about those, right?

[A W Smith]

Originally Posted by A W Smith http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2879659#post2879659)
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."


Who are the good men? Take religion-Woo for example. Everyone claims they are the good men. It's a nice fallacy nevertheless.

Bad men are those who accuse first responders including firefighters and police, victims, victims families, taxi drivers, witnesses, As being complicit in a 911 conspiracy. The good men are those being accused and those who defend them. Or is that unclear to you?

[Oliver]

Like a twoofer, you state things, like they are fact! When in reality, they are not! It is your opinion! You know what they say, about those, right?


Well, you might have noticed that I realized that it's nonsense. So I'm just asking if people in here understand the underlying problematics that lead me to this conclusion. Because if they understand it, then they might be able to explain why it's important nevertheless. (Besides the fun of it)

So let me ask: Do you understand the connection between Truthers and why they are Truthers?

If you don't understand the question, you don't understand what this topic is about. If this is the case: Read the thread again.

[Oliver]

Bad men are those who accuse first responders including firefighters and police, victims, victims families, taxi drivers, witnesses, As being complicit in a 911 conspiracy. The good men are those being accused and those who defend them. Or is that unclear to you?


Of course this is clear to me. But I doubt that the author of this phrase was talking about first responders. But I hope you take my apology that I didn't exactly understand that you're referring to what you just explained to me.

[mortimer]

So let me ask: Do you understand the connection between Truthers and why they are Truthers?

You seem to know the answer. Why don't you let us in on it? What is the connection? Why the secrecy?

[Pardalis]

Why fighting truthers?

Me not liking liars.

[Pardalis]

"A place to discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly and lively way."

Does it ring a bell Oliver?

[A W Smith]

By the sources of their beliefs do you mean the entertainment they watch? or immersion in Anti authoritarian dogma? or peer pressure? if that were the case wouldn't it be more widespread and not just a fringe element? there are probably more felons in prisons then there are troofers.
I think the problem with troofers is they have an inferiority complex and have a need to protest and view themselves as more intelligent and above common society. Only they can unmask the vast globe wide conspiracy that keeps them from succeeding in life and makes then social outcasts. If there were no x file TV shows or government conspiracies they would simply invent it. do I doubt that the government lies? No not at all. I know they lie on occasion. a good example would be the meltdown in 1959 of an experimental sodium cooled nuclear reactor in California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Susana_Field_Laboratory). causing the release of radiation 459 times that of the release at the three mile island meltdown. The NRC lied to us when stating that only one fuel rod was damaged when fully a third of them showed melting. This reactor didn't even have a containment structure because of its exemption as "experimental" it was no more than a common pre fab industrial building. (read that pole barn) But I'm drifting off topic.
suffice to say that we do this to defend the accused and to educate the fence sitters. I agree the hard core (the 14 or so at LC for example) wont be changed, But to expose their foolishness provides a service to the otherwise naive.

[Oliver]

You seem to know the answer. Why don't you let us in on it? What is the connection? Why the secrecy?


I suppose you didn't read the thread carefully - or didn't fully understand the Issue. I'm talking about the underlying social structures which enable a basis for people that tend to believe in Woo.

Here are just a view examples that I think are connected to 9/11 Woo:

Government secrecy
Traumatic incidents like JFK / OKC / 9/11
Myths about Roswell, Area 51, JFK, HAARP, OKC, Skull&Bones and so on (you name it)
Media that supports myths as facts (Alex Jones, Weekly World News ... for example)
Secret operations (Like CIA projects, for example) - which increase distrust
Lying/dodging politicians / false claims / unsatisfactory explanations
Mystery series that are based on Government secrecy (X-Files, as the most prominent example)
Millions of Websites spreading "Truth" (Ufos, Conspiracies, holy Woo)
maturity surely also comes to play but not necessarily...And so on - feel free to add your points to the list that contribute to the Woo in the first place...

[Pardalis]

Oh, OK, so it's another of your contentions that America is the cause of everything. Now it's responsible for woo. I get it...

[A W Smith]

I suppose you didn't read the thread carefully - or didn't fully understand the Issue. I'm talking about the underlying social structures which enable a basis for people that tend to believe in Woo.

Here are just a view examples that I think are connected to 9/11 Woo:

Government secrecy
Traumatic incidents like JFK / OKC / 9/11
Myths about Roswell, Area 51, JFK, HAARP, OKC, Skull&Bones and so on (you name it)
Media that supports myths as facts (Alex Jones, Weekly World News ... for example)
Secret operations (Like CIA projects, for example) - which increase distrust
Lying/dodging politicians / false claims / unsatisfactory explanations
Mystery series that are based on Government secrecy (X-Files, as the most prominent example)
Millions of Websites spreading "Truth" (Ufos, Conspiracies, holy Woo)
maturity surely also comes to play but not necessarily...And so on - feel free to add your points to the list that contribute to the Woo in the first place...

you forgot one
Drugs and chemically induced Brain damage, And politicians who do drugs, Including the mayor of Lakehurst NJ (http://www.ocobserver.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070803/NEWS/708030310)who when followed by a police car flicked his joint out his pickup window, which landed on the police cruisers windshield.

[Triterope]

Why do I fight Truthers? Because I hate conspiracy theories with a passion. Allow me to explain why.

For starters, conspiracy theories are anti-intellectual. They spread lies about real events that people need to understand, and make informed decisions about. They contribute to "dumbing down." They arbitrarily accuse innocent people of involvement of heinous crimes. Conspiracy theories are thinly-veiled forms of anti-Semitism and other forms of hate -- things that our society has gone to great lengths to try to eradicate. And they're a scam! Lots of decent people get sucked into conspiracy theories pertaining to taxes and finance. They fork over thousands of dollars for dubious paperwork that ultimately lands them in jail. Not to mention the cottage industry of hawking dubious texts about JFK and 9-11 conspiracies. Centuries from now, libraries will contain books about our times that are filled with lies, slander, and absolute gibberish, just so David Ray Griffin and Dylan Avery can make a lousy buck. If there is a hell, I hope there's a very special circle of it reserved for people who perpetrate these falsehoods for their own gain.

Conspiracy theory is an unholy amalgam of arrogance, greed, irresponsibility, bigotry and ignorance. It's a belief system. And like any other belief system, when societies start putting aside logic and science in favor of whatever self-indulgent fiction they choose to believe in, bad things happen. Do I need to list examples?

Just look at the language Truthers use. Kevin Barrett would have you and I murdered for not being 9-11 Truthers. Self-preservation, that's usually a good reason to fight, right? I realize he's a lone nut with little or no ability to carry out such threats... but what if he were? What if some like-minded person were?

I've said it before, and I still believe it: someday, someone is going to die because of 9-11 Truth. Its endless accusations will justify, in the mind of the next Timothy McVeigh-style sicko our society produces, a murderous rampage in the name of punishing the government. Or the Truthers' confrontational/marketing posture at 9-11 events is going to incite a riot. There are other possibilities.

Conspiracy believers want to drag us back into an age of overarching cabals, spooky talismans, magical science, convenient scapegoats, intellectuals branded as heretics, and self-appointed experts whipping the masses into a frenzy for their own gain.

In short, I fight 9-11 Truthers -- among other conspiracy mongers -- because what they do is hurtful and dangerous to a civilized society.

[dirtywick]

I don't know, Oliver. That's pretty shaky. If you want to put the blame on the environment instead of on the individual, you're going to have to satisfactorly prove that the environment is effecting more than a small minority of gullible fools. I mean, why don't I believe that 9/11 was an inside job? Why don't you? It's not like we never heard of that stuff either.

To me, it's better to throw the trash in the trash can instead of trying to figure out who put it there and why, because that's not going to clean up the house, ya dig?

[Oliver]

Oh, OK, so it's another of your contentions that America is the cause of everything. Now it's responsible for woo. I get it...


Even if the French guy Meyssan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thierry_Meyssan) started the hype - I found no other country that has so much conspiracy theories and other woos than America. So yes, the US is the Number One Woo-Land, and I apologize if this might sound offending. But even if every other country has their woos, too - I would appreciate if you're able to disproof my statement, Mr. Goury.

And while you're at it, please explain to me where the Truthers came from by answering this simple question:

Do you understand the connection between Truthers and why they are Truthers?

Why are they truthers, Goury?

[Pardalis]

I don't understand your question.

Alot of 9/11 conspiracy theories started in the Middle East, on september 12th 2001.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm
http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Jan/14-260933.html

[Oliver]

I don't know, Oliver. That's pretty shaky. If you want to put the blame on the environment instead of on the individual, you're going to have to satisfactorly prove that the environment is effecting more than a small minority of gullible fools. I mean, why don't I believe that 9/11 was an inside job? Why don't you? It's not like we never heard of that stuff either.

To me, it's better to throw the trash in the trash can instead of trying to figure out who put it there and why, because that's not going to clean up the house, ya dig?


I understand your analogy to trash. :D

But if you have to clean up the House, wouldn't you wonder who did the trash in the first place? And wouldn't you wonder why the House is dirty again after you cleaned it already?

[Oliver]

I don't understand your question.

Alot of 9/11 conspiracy theories started in the Middle East, on september 12th 2001.


Which ones did start in the Middle-East? And where are they now - what happened to them? Is anybody still talking about it?

My question was simple:
How do you get a Truther?

[Gravy]

Why fight those who fight Truthers, Oliver? What's it to you?

Personally, I only engage as long as there's some educational content. Or unless they really step out of bounds. I've seen you do that once or twice yourself. But I don't waste my time worrying about the annoyance thresholds of others, except in clearly pathological situations like Christophera or Craig Ranke. People feud over the 'net all the time. It's part of the fun.

So your personal Intention mostly is entertainment. That's absolutely okay and it explains how you personally feel about my question, thank you for your honest answer. :)

Yep, that's what Mackey said, all right. :rolleyes:

[Gravy]

My question was simple:
How do you get a Truther?

1 part stupidity
1 part paranoia
1 part broadband

Mix well. Let fester for 1 month. Serve.

[Pardalis]

Which ones did start in the Middle-East? And where are they now - what happened to them? Is anybody still talking about it?

See my edit.

And yes, people are still talking about this one. Actually, someone very recently told me the same theory as if it was common knowledge.

My question was simple:
How do you get a Truther?People who are blinded by hatred of America and/or the Bush administration very easily get to be truthers.

You should know, you were once one.

[Oliver]

Yep, that's what Mackey said, all right. :rolleyes:


Exactly - that's what he said: "It's part of the fun."

[Oliver]

See my edit.

And yes, people are still talking about this one. Actually, someone very recently told me the same theory as if it was common knowledge.

People who are blinded by hatred of America or the Bush administration very easily get to be truthers.

You should know, you were once one.


Okay, a lot one single, lousy Conspiracy Theory in the Middle-East. You think that's a good comparison to all the Woo-Theories in the US? :confused:

No, no - it has nothing to do with hatred. You may have noticed that every US-Truther is a "patriot who loves his country but not the evil regime".

I'd rather blame the distrust into the Government - which seems to be a general problem. And I have no Idea where the general distrust in their own Government came from. May be a traditional thing.

Also: If people would tend to get Truthers because they dislike Bush - wouldn't their Number be much higher in comparison to the latest approval polls?

[Pardalis]

Okay, a lot one single, lousy Conspiracy Theory in the Middle-East. You think that's a good comparison to all the Woo-Theories in the US?

That was one example.

No, no - it has nothing to do with hatred. You may have noticed that every US-Truther is a "patriot who loves his country but not the evil regime".

Alot of twoofers are Europeans too, like Pdoh.

I'd rather blame the distrust into the Government - which seems to be a general problem. And I have no Idea where the general distrust in their own Government came from. May be a traditional thing.

The Iraq war didn't help.

[Pardalis]

http://www.nysun.com/article/25048
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4346_13.htm

[leftysergeant]

Exposing the twoofers' font of inanity may be a life-or-death issue for me, if I have rightly guaged who is doing the most to fuel the flames of their stupidity.

Can anyone really question that a lot of the drummers for theis fools' parade are white nationalists? Alex Jones, Chris Bollyn, Greg Szymanski and Darryl Bradford Smith are all apologists for the Nazis, some of them openly, some covertly. All of them, secretly or openly, blame "der Ewige Jude" for all of our woes.

THey want their RaHoWa, and they know they do not have the numbers they need to pull it off by themselves. So they have to stir up the useful idiots.

Useful idiots, of course, never think of themselves as idiots.

Somebody has to teach them.

And since, if the RaHoWa does come, and the white nationalists happen to gain control of the area where I live, the 5000 rounds of assorted ammo that I have on hand might not be enough to keep the rope from around my neck, I feel I owe it to myself to teach them that they are being played like a cheap harmonica.

[Gravy]

Why fight those who fight Truthers, Oliver? What's it to you?

Personally, I only engage as long as there's some educational content. Or unless they really step out of bounds. I've seen you do that once or twice yourself. But I don't waste my time worrying about the annoyance thresholds of others, except in clearly pathological situations like Christophera or Craig Ranke. People feud over the 'net all the time. It's part of the fun.

Exactly - that's what he said: "It's part of the fun."

I've highlighted important parts that you chose to ignore.

[Gravy]

I feel I owe it to myself to teach them that they are being played like a cheap harmonica.Now I know why they suck and blow.

[Oliver]

That was one example.

Alot of twoofers are Europeans too, like Pdoh.

The Iraq war didn't help.

http://www.nysun.com/article/25048
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4346_13.htm



I know that there is Woo in other places, too. And this might indeed have the same reason against the US-Government as in America itself. But all Woos I personally grew up with, are to 99% woo originating in the US. Which, by the way, might have to do with the fact that we import nearly every successful woo - with the difference that it's mostly entertaining and no one takes it serious. But the distrust is here as well - not based on SciFi but rather because the current White House.

Concerning the Middle-East conspiracies. I don't wonder at all that they have CT's concerning Israel and the US. It would be interesting to have more Muslims from the Middle-East posting on this Board as well - because I don't believe their own distrust in their Governments is based on fiction but rather because of history.

Any US citizen who knows where the general distrust into the own Government came from? :confused:

[Oliver]

I've highlighted important parts that you chose to ignore.


This might be a translational thing but all in all he's saying that his reasons are mostly entertainment, including education. But he might clarify this when he comes back.

[uk_dave]

Alot of twoofers are Europeans too, like Pdoh.



Actually, alot of 'truthers' are pdoh

[Pardalis]

But all Woos I personally grew up with, are to 99% woo originating in the US.

Coming from a German that is hilarious.

It would be interesting to have more Muslims from the Middle-East posting on this Board as well

I agree.

[Oliver]

Actually, alot of 'truthers' are pdoh


That's actually true, Goury... :D

[Oliver]

Coming from a German that is hilarious.


Why? :confused: How many German Woo-Stories do you know that I'm not aware of? :confused:

[Pardalis]

Mein Kampf for starters.

[Pardalis]

Actually, alot of 'truthers' are pdoh

Don't worry, alot of truthers are Canadians too. ;)

[KoihimeNakamura]

If your house is on fire, you don't stop to consider what set it, Oliver. You put it out.

[Oliver]

Mein Kampf for starters.


No one believes that anymore besides a handful of nuts. What's your point? :confused:

[Pardalis]

No one believes that anymore besides a handful of nuts. What's your point? :confused:

It's a German woo-woo story.

And no, it is still very influential, anti-semitism is still a big problem. It's sad that you keep ignoring it.

But hey, you're Oliver.

[Oliver]

If your house is on fire, you don't stop to consider what set it, Oliver. You put it out.


And if the fire starts over and over again? Don't you start to look for the source of the fires? And I'm sorry, I don't see the fire extinguishing by converting 1 Truther and ten new appear. Well, it's a try - but it would be more interesting to know the sources, wouldn't it?

[Oliver]

It's a German woo-woo story.

And no, it is still very influential, anti-semitism is still a big problem. It's sad that you keep ignoring it.

But hey, you're Oliver.


I'm ignoring it? :confused: Are you kidding me??? :confused:

http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/icons/icon4.gif Racism ... and doing nothing about it (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89180) http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/misc/new_window.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89180) (http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89180) 2 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89180&page=2) )
Oliver (4th August 2007)

[Pardalis]

You keep ignoring it because anti-semitism is a big freaking part of the truth movement, and a big freaking part of why 9/11 happened.

[Oliver]

You keep ignoring it because anti-semitism is a big freaking part of the truth movement.


I know that antisemitism plays a role in conspiracy theories. That's surely not my problem if there are no laws against racism in the US. But yes, I'm all for it - meaning laws against it.

But to get back on topic: What is your impression concerning the amount of conspiracy theories in and about Canada in contrast to other countries?

[Pardalis]

I know that antisemitism plays a role in conspiracy theories.

That's why fighting 9/11 CTs is important.

That's surely not my problem if there are no laws against racism in the US. But yes, I'm all for it - meaning laws against it.The US is a free country, believe it or not.

But to get back on topic: What is your impression concerning the amount of conspiracy theories in and about Canada in contrast to other countries?First of all that's not the topic of this thread, and secondly Canada has pretty much the same CTs as the US.

ETA: for example, I saw members of the Lyndon Larouche cult the other day on the subway.

[Pardalis]

Also Oliver, you want to know why I fight the truthers?

It's because it's insulting. It's insulting to my conscience, to my intelligence. It's insulting to the people who died that day. It's letting the barbarians who perpetrated it off the hook. It's insulting to History.

I won't stand for it.

[Oliver]

That's why fighting 9/11 CTs is important.

The US is a free country, believe it or not.

First of all that's not the topic of this thread, and secondly Canada has pretty much the same CTs as the US.

ETA: for example, I saw members of the Lyndon Larouche cult the other day on the subway.


If the US is a free country, which I don't believe in terms of democracy, why do you care at all? I mean you surely want Nazis to speak freely, too - won't you? - I know, but how do you bring up freedoms and at the same time want to fight these freedoms? Did you mixed up something? :confused:

Okay, here's the Wikipedia-List of Conspiracies:

Conspiracy theories peculiar to Canada

Avro Arrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Arrow)—Cancellation of this system.
Shag Harbor incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shag_Harbor_incident)—Said to be "Canada's Roswell."
Shirley's Bay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley%27s_Bay)—Supposed UFO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO)-monitoring station.
Conspiracy theories peculiar to Germany

Termination of rocket experiments at Cuxhaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termination_of_rocket_experiments_at_Cuxhaven).Con spiracy theories peculiar to the United States


RFID chips in humans.[1] (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Conspiracy_Theories#_note-0)
Moon Landing was a hoax (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Moon_landing_hoax).
All scientists are trying to foist the false theory of Evolution on the public at the behest of Satan.
Global warming, ditto.
AIDS was created by the CIA.
All scientists and politicians are trying to cover up cold fusion.
The United States is hiding UFO wreckage at Area 51.
The United States Department of Defense (DOD) is experimenting with
ELF (Extremely Low Frequency) for communications and possibly mind control
HAARP (http://www.haarp.net/) (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program) for possible use in "weather control" as a weapon.
Green M&Ms (or in Canada, Smarties) contain aphrodisiacs[2] (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Conspiracy_Theories#_note-1)
The "Scalar Interferometer" is powerful superweapon that the Soviet Union used for years to modify weather in the rest of the world. See [1] (http://www.cheniere.org/books/part1/teslaweapons.htm), [2] (http://www.cheniere.org/books/excalibur/index.html). It taps the quantum vacuum energy, using a method discovered by T. Henry Moray (http://www.cheniere.org/books/excalibur/moray.htm) in the 1920's. It may have brought down the Columbia spacecraft [3] (http://www.prahlad.org/pub/bearden/Columbia_attack.htm). See also [4] (http://www.bariumblues.com/index.htm)
OKC bombing
9/11 was staged by the US Government.
9/11 was staged by the Israeli government.
JFK jet fuel and other maladroit "terrorism" attempts are conspiracies
J. Edgar Hoover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Hoover) was blackmailing important people in the US Government to keep his job as head of the FBI.
The Republicans used legal chicanery and fraud to win the 2000 Presidential Election (http://www.rationalwiki.com/index.php?title=2000_Presidential_Election&action=edit).
And the 2004 one.
The CIA (http://www.rationalwiki.com/index.php?title=CIA&action=edit) experimented on individuals with LSD (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/LSD) without the subjects knowledge in a project known as Project MKULTRA (http://www.rationalwiki.com/index.php?title=Project_MKULTRA&action=edit).
Dick "Dick" Cheney (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Dick_Cheney) ordered Scooter Libby (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Scooter_Libby) to expose Valerie Plame as an undercover CIA officer.
JFK was not killed by Lee Harvey Oswald, acting alone.
RFK was not killed by Sirhan Sirhan, acting alone.
Martin Luther King Jr. was not killed by a Lone Gunman, either.[4] (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Conspiracy_Theories#_note-3)
John Hinckley, Jr. had been brainwashed into trying to assassinate Ronald Reagan, at the behest of George Herbert Walker Bush.
Bush deliberately lied to get the US to invade Iraq.
Dwight D. Eisenhower (http://www.rationalwiki.com/index.php?title=Dwight_D._Eisenhower&action=edit), Allen Dulles (http://www.rationalwiki.com/index.php?title=Allen_Dulles&action=edit) and Earl Warren (http://www.rationalwiki.com/index.php?title=Earl_Warren&action=edit) were all Communist agents (http://www.rationalwiki.com/index.php?title=Communist_agents&action=edit)[5] (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Conspiracy_Theories#_note-4)
The Reagan campaign made a deal with the Iranian government not to release the hostages until after Reagan was elected President.
Roosevelt intentionally goaded Japan into war pursuant to a strategy outlined in the McCollum Memo (http://www.conservapedia.com/McCollum_memo).[6] (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Conspiracy_Theories#_note-5)
Roosevelt knew about the Pearl Harbor attack in advance, and let it happen.
Bush et al knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance. and let them happen.
Gary Webb was suicided by the CIA and/or drug interests. Gary Webb wrote about the CIA and the Crack epidemic, and his death by multiple gunshots to the head was ruled a suicide.[7] (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Conspiracy_Theories#_note-6)
Bill and Hillary Clinton had 50 people murdered, and got off scott-free.[8] (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Conspiracy_Theories#_note-7)
Oil companies are deliberately suppressing better car technology.
Shortly before 9/11, many individuals or institutions with prior knowledge shorted airline stocks and made a fortune.
The Federal Reserve deliberately causes recessions.
There is a huge, organized conspiracy to commit the Satanic Ritual Abuse (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Satanic_Ritual_Abuse) and murder of small children.
Jesus was actually married to Mary Magdalene...
...and they had kids...
...and the Templars are still around and trying to prevent people from finding out.
The Jews secretly run everything.
The Jews were behind the 9/11 attacks.
Water fluoridation (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Water_fluoridation) is part of an insidious Communist plot to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids.
There Is A Cabal (http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Cabal)Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_conspiracy
http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/List_of_Conspiracy_Theories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory




Do you see a pattern? :confused:



You should go here to see why Truthers are Truthers, Goury - for a start:

5.1 Psychological origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Psychological_origins)
5.1.1 Projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Projection)
5.1.2 Epistemic bias? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Epistemic_bias.3F)
5.1.3 Clinical psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Clinical_psychology)
5.2 Socio-political origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Socio-political_origins)
5.2.1 Disillusionment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Disillusionment)
5.2.2 The "Rationality Theorem" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#The_.22Rationality_Theorem.22)
5.2.3 Media tropes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Media_tropes)

[Pardalis]

I know, but how do you bring up freedoms and at the same time want to fight these freedoms? Did you mixed up something? :confused:

R e a d - c a r e f u l l y:

They have the right to say what they want, and I have the right to fight against what they say.

See the subtlety?

You should go here to see why Truthers are Truthers, Goury - for a start:
5.1 Psychological origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Psychological_origins)
5.1.1 Projection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Projection)
5.1.2 Epistemic bias? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Epistemic_bias.3F)
5.1.3 Clinical psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Clinical_psychology)
5.2 Socio-political origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Socio-political_origins)
5.2.1 Disillusionment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Disillusionment)
5.2.2 The "Rationality Theorem" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#The_.22Rationality_Theorem.22)
5.2.3 Media tropes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Media_tropes) R e a d - c a r e f u l l y - w h a t - I - a m - s a y i n g :

Every human being is susceptible to these factors. Not just Americans.

ETA: and as far as your stupid list is concerned, there is no way to know for sure where all these CTs really do come from and who made that list and how. (remember Wikipedia is not perfect)

[Gravy]

This might be a translational thing but all in all he's saying that his reasons are mostly entertainment, including education. But he might clarify this when he comes back.No, he's saying that he mostly engages in education, and does not tend to get involved in the bickering and personality issues. That should be obvious from his posts.

[Oliver]

R e a d - c a r e f u l l y:

They have the right to say what they want, and I have the right to fight against what they say.

See the subtlety?

R e a d - c a r e f u l l y - w h a t - I - a m - s a y i n g :

Every human being is susceptible to these factors. Not just Americans.

ETA: and as far as your stupid list is concerned, there is no way to know for sure where all these CTs really do come from and who made that list and how. (remember Wikipedia is not perfect)


Nobody said you don't have the right to fight Truthers. :boggled:
And no, I posted the list to give you an Idea. That's all.

Please stop derailing this thread and come back if you know why people are tending to get Truthers in the first place:

5 General arguments against conspiracism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#General_arguments_against_conspi racism)

[Brainache]

Well Oliver I would say that if you wanted to stop people from making up CTs you would need to do several things:

1)Stop teenage boys from being idiots who think they know it all.
2)Ban paranoids from using the internet.
3)Outlaw free speech.
4)Stop failed academics from seeking fame amongst credulous youths.
5)Change human nature so that things like ghost stories, political thrillers, tall stories and unsolved mysteries no longer entertain people.

Or of course you can blame it all on a few episodes of The X-Files.

[Slayhamlet]

R e a d - c a r e f u l l y:

They have the right to say what they want, and I have the right to fight against what they say.

See the subtlety?

R e a d - c a r e f u l l y - w h a t - I - a m - s a y i n g :

Every human being is susceptible to these factors. Not just Americans.

ETA: and as far as your stupid list is concerned, there is no way to know for sure where all these CTs really do come from and who made that list and how. (remember Wikipedia is not perfect)

The green M&M's as an aphrodisiac conspiracy theory is really prominent around where I live. Damn Mars Inc. trying to turn our kids into sex crazed maniacs!

Yeah, that list is a joke.

[Oliver]

Well Oliver I would say that if you wanted to stop people from making up CTs you would need to do several things:

1)Stop teenage boys from being idiots who think they know it all.
2)Ban paranoids from using the internet.
3)Outlaw free speech.
4)Stop failed academics from seeking fame amongst credulous youths.
5)Change human nature so that things like ghost stories, political thrillers, tall stories and unsolved mysteries no longer entertain people.

Or of course you can blame it all on a few episodes of The X-Files.


Quite frankly, if people would trust in their Government, there wouldn't be conspiracy theories about them in the first place.
What do you think? - And do you know where the distrust comes from?

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

From what I've understood is that the Truthers lack the education to understand the complex things in the real world.

Let's just say they're reverting back to the age of the caveman. They show primitive intellect but can't cope with grasping what it real and what is fantasy. They tend to play stupid in order to get their points & views across.

If we don't teach our future generations' how important education is in this country they'll be just like those "primitives" are today.

[Oliver]

From what I've understood is that the Truthers lack the education to understand the complex things in the real world.

Let's just say they're reverting back to the age of the caveman. They show primitive intellect but can't cope with grasping what it real and what is fantasy. They tend to play stupid in order to get their points & views across.

If we don't teach our future generations' how important education is in this country they'll be just like those "primitives" are today.


Education, complexity and intelligence wouldn't explain why Scholars fell for it.
The issue is much more complex then just saying they're dumb.

You might read Wiki's summing as well about the psychological and environmental backgrounds:

5 General arguments against conspiracism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#General_arguments_against_conspi racism)

^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#_ref-13) Goertzel (1994). "Belief in Conspiracy Theories (http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/%7Egoertzel/conspire.doc)". Political Psychology 15: 733-744. Retrieved on August 7, 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=August_7%2C_2006&action=edit).

[Brainache]

Quite frankly, if people would trust in their Government, there wouldn't be conspiracy theories about them in the first place.
What do you think? - And do you know where the distrust comes from?

I don't think people should trust their governments at all. I think everything governments tell people should be checked closely. I think when people stop checking what the Government is telling them they leave themselves vulnerable to the kind of things that happened in your country under the Nazis.

I would add to that that I don't believe that Governments lie all the time, only that citizens need to keep checking in order to keep them honest.

A big problem for the Truthers is that they don't believe the government, but they lack the ability to check the veracity of what they are being told and as a consequence they believe anyone who tells them that the government is lying.

I believe that a certain amount of distrust of authority is healthy. The US in particular was founded on the notion that people in power will always try to fool the public and the constitution reflects the founder's attempts to create a society where such abuses of power are minimised.

[T.A.M.]

Wow...ollie you seem to have stirred up the hornets nest...not sure how or why, but the natives are annoyed.

I understand perfectly the point you are trying to make. I will use the garbage analogy, a little differently though.

The reason I do not "go for the head of the dragon" is this...

"If it is legal to litter, then I cannot have the litterer arrested, but I will still pick up the garbage so that I can keep the area clean."

I cannot attack the head of the dragon because the dragon has a right to be here, and do what it does...it is called free speech.

Sites like prisonplanet, and 911blogger, as much as I hate them, have a right to exist and post what they like. This is the blessing/curse paradox of free speech.

As for the other roots of the 9/11 tree, such as the secrecy of the govt, well you can try to legislate changes that will minimize this, but it is tough, because those who create and pass said legislation, are looking to obtain the power that transparency would destroy.

See my goal is not to destroy the words of the truthers, all though if they shut up I would be happy. My goal, and I believe the goal of many others here, is to provide an alternate to their comments, the counter to them, what we consider to be, what we KNOW to be the REAL TRUTH. That way, when someone sitting on the fence arrives, they can avail of all of the information, and hopefully make a logical, rational decision for themselves, fully informed.

TAM:)

[chillzero]

I have split out some irrelevant and personalised posts. Please re-read the revised MA for this area. Keep the thread on topic, and discuss the issue, not the person. Additionally, CTs are a global phenomenon, so this must not become another anti-USA thread based on this misconception.

[Oliver]

I don't think people should trust their governments at all. I think everything governments tell people should be checked closely. I think when people stop checking what the Government is telling them they leave themselves vulnerable to the kind of things that happened in your country under the Nazis.

I would add to that that I don't believe that Governments lie all the time, only that citizens need to keep checking in order to keep them honest.

A big problem for the Truthers is that they don't believe the government, but they lack the ability to check the veracity of what they are being told and as a consequence they believe anyone who tells them that the government is lying.

I believe that a certain amount of distrust of authority is healthy. The US in particular was founded on the notion that people in power will always try to fool the public and the constitution reflects the founder's attempts to create a society where such abuses of power are minimised.


Well, quite frankly. How do you check your Government when even the Media fails to check them? I have every good reason to distrust the current White House - and I fully understand that Truthers have this kind of distrust as well. So this alone shows that the Issue is far more complex than just "stupid kids" believing in some Woo. The truth is that it's Woo mixed with real things about the Government - like the nasty CIA operations.

And I might add that something like this...

6BEsZMvrq-I
...would be the immediate end of this guys political career over here in the same circumstances, for example. Now we don't have all sorts of Watergates all the time - like the prostitution-gate, the Gonzales-Gate, the Libby-Gate and on and on and on. Something is very wrong and groups like the Truthers show this very clearly.

No one over here would blame the Government for an attack like 9/11 - because there is far more trust than in the US. So I primarily blame the Media and Government for the Woo-Phenomena over there - which you will not find here in any significant scale.

[Oliver]

Wow...ollie you seem to have stirred up the hornets nest...not sure how or why, but the natives are annoyed.

I understand perfectly the point you are trying to make. I will use the garbage analogy, a little differently though.

The reason I do not "go for the head of the dragon" is this...

"If it is legal to litter, then I cannot have the litterer arrested, but I will still pick up the garbage so that I can keep the area clean."

I cannot attack the head of the dragon because the dragon has a right to be here, and do what it does...it is called free speech.

Sites like prisonplanet, and 911blogger, as much as I hate them, have a right to exist and post what they like. This is the blessing/curse paradox of free speech.

As for the other roots of the 9/11 tree, such as the secrecy of the govt, well you can try to legislate changes that will minimize this, but it is tough, because those who create and pass said legislation, are looking to obtain the power that transparency would destroy.

See my goal is not to destroy the words of the truthers, all though if they shut up I would be happy. My goal, and I believe the goal of many others here, is to provide an alternate to their comments, the counter to them, what we consider to be, what we KNOW to be the REAL TRUTH. That way, when someone sitting on the fence arrives, they can avail of all of the information, and hopefully make a logical, rational decision for themselves, fully informed.

TAM:)


Quite frankly, Tam - and I understand your efforts and why you spend the time - but I have to say that it's a waste of time to me, especially because I see the broader picture of this problem.

By that I mean that everything about 9/11 is debunked yet - to crucify myself about the same issues over and over again, isn't very useful. But this might be because I never believed in Conspiracies very much - or spend much attention to it besides the 9/11 CT's. Probably as a result about all the things I don't understand since then for my own.

[Brainache]

Well, quite frankly. How do you check your Government when even the Media fails to check them? I have every good reason to distrust the current White House - and I fully understand that Truthers have this kind of distrust as well. So this alone shows that the Issue is far more complex than just "stupid kids" believing in some Woo. The truth is that it's Woo mixed with real things about the Government - like the nasty CIA operations.

How can you say that the media fails to check the government when all the examples you cite are things which the media has brought to light?


And I might add that something like this...

6BEsZMvrq-I

...would be the immediate end of this guys political career, for example. Now we don't have all sorts of Watergates all the time - like the prostitution-gate, the Gonzales-Gate, the Libby-Gate and on and on and on. Something is very wrong and groups like the Truthers show this very clearly.

I agree that there is something very wrong with the Bush admin. I disagree that the Truthers show anything very clearly. All the Truthers show is their own confusion over the difference between fantasy and reality.

If I were to blame anyone for the rampant distrust of American leaders, I would blame Nixon.


No one over here would blame the Government for an attack like 9/11 - because there is far more trust than in the US. So I primarily blame the Media and Government for the Woo-Phenomena over there - which you will not find here in a significant scale.

Don't you get all the same stupid Yank shows in Germany? I know we have them here in Australia. We also have the occasional political scandal and investigative reporters. We have woo as well, but like with all these things the Americans do it with more enthusiasm.

[Oliver]

How can you say that the media fails to check the government when all the examples you cite are things which the media has brought to light?

I agree that there is something very wrong with the Bush admin. I disagree that the Truthers show anything very clearly. All the Truthers show is their own confusion over the difference between fantasy and reality.

If I were to blame anyone for the rampant distrust of American leaders, I would blame Nixon.

Don't you get all the same stupid Yank shows in Germany? I know we have them here in Australia. We also have the occasional political scandal and investigative reporters. We have woo as well, but like with all these things the Americans do it with more enthusiasm.


Because the Media failed to react in many cases. The Clip above is from 1994 and it took 4 years until it came up again. Same goes to so many examples but as Chillzero warned me, it's off-topic and "Anti-American".

I don't know much about Nixxon - I really cared about politics since 9/11 and I'm simply disgusted from the things I learn.

Why do they have more enthusiasm about the paranormal, the christian morality, conspiracy theories, Gods image in Trees and stuff like that? We also have such Yank - but it's not taken seriously and there is faaaar less Yank in a sense of mystery-quackery-alien-religious stuff.

But let me ask: What do you think is the number one source for Woo?

[Brainache]

Because the Media failed to react in many cases. The Clip above is from 1994 and it took 4 years until it came up again. Same goes to so many examples but as Chillzero warned me, it's off-topic and "Anti-American".

It's someone talking about the reasons the US didn't take it upon themselves to ignore the UN mandate for Gulf War 1. I don't see your point here.


I don't know much about Nixxon - I really cared about politics since 9/11 and I'm simply disgusted from the things I learn.

Nixon = Watergate.


Why do they have more enthusiasm about the paranormal, the christian morality, conspiracy theories, Gods image in Trees and stuff like that? We also have such Yank - but it's not taken seriously and there is faaaar less Yank in a sense of mystery-quackery-alien-religious stuff.

Sure, now you might say that, but get yourself a time machine and go back 70 or 80 years and have a look at the popularity of a certain cult in Germany. No nation is immune to this stuff.


But let me ask: What do you think is the number one source for Woo?

The human brain.

Some societies put a greater emphasis on restraint than our American cousins, so it doesn't surprise me that Americans express things publicly that others wouldn't dream of.

Ever seen Jerry Springer or Maury Povich? I can't imagine those shows coming from anywhere else than the good old US of A. That is not a criticism of America, just an observation that people in other countries don't seem to feel the need to express themselves with such wild abandon.

[Oliver]

Some societies put a greater emphasis on restraint than our American cousins, so it doesn't surprise me that Americans express things publicly that others wouldn't dream of.

Ever seen Jerry Springer or Maury Povich? I can't imagine those shows coming from anywhere else than the good old US of A. That is not a criticism of America, just an observation that people in other countries don't seem to feel the need to express themselves with such wild abandon.


Frankly, I never saw Jerry Springer or Maury Povich. But the "wild abandon" alone doesn't make much sense, or does it? I mean if this also has something to do with all the conspiracy theories and woo in general - why would skeptics/debunker be angry about their own cultural "wild abandon" - as soon it's coming from Tuthers?

By that I mean -wouldn't you suspect more tolerance from Debunkers towards Truthers if the culture itself is so "open-minded"/"wild abandon"? :confused:

[Brainache]

Frankly, I never saw Jerry Springer or Maury Povich. But the "wild abandon" alone doesn't make much sense, or does it? I mean if this also has something to do with all the conspiracy theories and woo in general - why would skeptics/debunker be angry about their own cultural "wild abandon" - as soon it's coming from Tuthers?

By that I mean -wouldn't you suspect more tolerance from Debunkers towards Truthers if the culture itself is so "open-minded"/"wild abandon"? :confused:

I believe it comes back to the free speech issue which others have mentioned. Truthers or any type of woo believers are free to express their ideas and the debunkers also have the freedom to respond. Freedom of speech has a down-side and spreading lies is part of that.

Sure, the debunkers could say, "hey so what? Just ignore the nutjobs" but some people (myself included) feel that to let lies go unchallenged is not an option. While ever people have the freedom to say what they want, there will be a need for some sort of defense of small "t" truth.

If someone really wanted to spark a revolution in the US they could do it by revoking the right to free speech IMO.

[Oliver]

I believe it comes back to the free speech issue which others have mentioned. Truthers or any type of woo believers are free to express their ideas and the debunkers also have the freedom to respond. Freedom of speech has a down-side and spreading lies is part of that.

Sure, the debunkers could say, "hey so what? Just ignore the nutjobs" but some people (myself included) feel that to let lies go unchallenged is not an option. While ever people have the freedom to say what they want, there will be a need for some sort of defense of small "t" truth.

If someone really wanted to spark a revolution in the US they could do it by revoking the right to free speech IMO.


I'm sorry, but I feel much more free to express myself (uncensored) over here - because I simply know when I cross the line towards a lie and what social consequences this may have. I see absolutely no advantage in "free speech" - just the downsides of that whenever I think about all the Woo. Might be just a cultural thing I don't see logic in.

But what about the examples I made. How much weight do you give these points in terms of seeding the ground for Truthers and other Woo?

Government secrecy
Traumatic incidents like JFK / OKC / 9/11
Myths about Roswell, Area 51, JFK, HAARP, OKC, Skull&Bones and so on (you name it)
Media that supports myths as facts (Alex Jones, Weekly World News ... for example)
Secret operations (Like CIA projects, for example) - which increase distrust
Lying/dodging politicians / false claims / unsatisfactory explanations
Mystery series that are based on Government secrecy (X-Files, as the most prominent example)
Millions of Websites spreading "Truth" (Ufos, Conspiracies, holy Woo)
maturity surely also comes to play but not necessarily

[16.5]

Your entire concept is based on a fallacy: That Truthers somehow constitute more than an irrelevant percentage of the American public. You are looking at America myopically, it is like the blind man trying to describe an elephant and only feeling its tail. So to answer your question, blaming "American Society" for the Truthers is like blaming an elephant for getting bitten by a mosquito, (or a gnu for getting bit by a gnat).

Free Speech is the cornerstone of American Society, if you suggest that we are going to allow limitation of free Speech because we don't agree with what another person is saying, I can assure you that you are wasting your time. I'll take woo over censorship anytime. That is because I am free to explain just why it is "woo" in the first place.

[Brainache]

I'm sorry, but I feel much more free to express myself (uncensored) over here - because I simply know when I cross the line towards a lie and what social consequences this may have. I see absolutely no advantage in "free speech" - just the downsides of that whenever I think about all the Woo. Might be just a cultural thing I don't see logic in.

So it wouldn't bother you if people were imprisoned for criticising the government? That is what free speech is all about. Not the right to swear in public. If you can think of away to ensure free speech and at the same time outlaw lying, then go ahead...

But what about the examples I made. How much weight do you give these points in terms of seeding the ground for Truthers and other Woo?

Government secrecy
All governments have secrets.

Traumatic incidents like JFK / OKC / 9/11
Why would fantasists bother making myths about non-traumatic events?

Myths about Roswell, Area 51, JFK, HAARP, OKC, Skull&Bones and so on (you name it)
These are the myths, not the seeding ground.

Media that supports myths as facts (Alex Jones, Weekly World News ... for example)
There is money to be made from suckers. There are people who would try to turn a profit selling their own mother's corpse.

Secret operations (Like CIA projects, for example) - which increase distrust
Lying/dodging politicians / false claims / unsatisfactory explanations
Politicians have been lying to cover their indiscretions and employing secret operatives since ancient times. You can't seriously believe that the US has a monopoly on this kind of stuff.

Mystery series that are based on Government secrecy (X-Files, as the most prominent example)
Only a problem for people who don't know the difference between fantasy and reality. Are ghost stories the reason that some people believe in ghosts?

Millions of Websites spreading "Truth" (Ufos, Conspiracies, holy Woo)
maturity surely also comes to play but not necessarily
Again it's all about fame and money for some. For others it's a belief system. I don't believe it's a psychological illness, I believe it's a philosophical illness.

[Oliver]

Your entire concept is based on a fallacy: That Truthers somehow constitute more than an irrelevant percentage of the American public. You are looking at America myopically, it is like the blind man trying to describe an elephant and only feeling its tail. So to answer your question, blaming "American Society" for the Truthers is like blaming an elephant for getting bitten by a mosquito, (or a gnu for getting bit by a gnat).

Free Speech is the cornerstone of American Society, if you suggest that we are going to allow limitation of free Speech because we don't agree with what another person is saying, I can assure you that you are wasting your time. I'll take woo over censorship anytime. That is because I am free to explain just why it is "woo" in the first place.


How much weight do you give these points in terms of seeding the ground for Truthers and other Woo?
(Please note - free speech itself isn't mentioned in this list) :

Quote:
Government secrecy
Traumatic incidents like JFK / OKC / 9/11
Myths about Roswell, Area 51, JFK, HAARP, OKC, Skull&Bones and so on (you name it)
Media that supports myths as facts (Alex Jones, Weekly World News ... for example)
Secret operations (Like CIA projects, for example) - which increase distrust
Lying/dodging politicians / false claims / unsatisfactory explanations
Mystery series that are based on Government secrecy (X-Files, as the most prominent example)
Millions of Websites spreading "Truth" (Ufos, Conspiracies, holy Woo)
maturity surely also comes to play but not necessarily

[16.5]

Your list reads like a list of "when did you stop beating your wife" questions.

[chipmunk stew]

I suppose you didn't read the thread carefully - or didn't fully understand the Issue. I'm talking about the underlying social structures which enable a basis for people that tend to believe in Woo.

Here are just a view examples that I think are connected to 9/11 Woo:

Government secrecy
Traumatic incidents like JFK / OKC / 9/11
Myths about Roswell, Area 51, JFK, HAARP, OKC, Skull&Bones and so on (you name it)
Media that supports myths as facts (Alex Jones, Weekly World News ... for example)
Secret operations (Like CIA projects, for example) - which increase distrust
Lying/dodging politicians / false claims / unsatisfactory explanations
Mystery series that are based on Government secrecy (X-Files, as the most prominent example)
Millions of Websites spreading "Truth" (Ufos, Conspiracies, holy Woo)
maturity surely also comes to play but not necessarily...And so on - feel free to add your points to the list that contribute to the Woo in the first place...
You're right, Oliver. We're doing nothing to address any of these things. :rolleyes:

Here's what I advocate: Ban government secrets; Ban all conspiracy-themed plots; Ban traumatic incidents; Ban urban myths; Ban alternative media; Ban woo-woo websites; Ban teenagers. That ought to do the trick.

It seems that you're always calling people out to do things that they're already doing.

Oliver v1.0-Why are you all sitting here on this forum instead of engaging the Truthers on their own turf?
JREF forum guy-I've been on several sites engaging them directly for months. Where have you been?

Oliver v1.1-Why are you all wasting your time with MIHOP and LIHOP nutjubs when there are real questions about the US gov't lies and secrets surrounding 9/11 and the war in Iraq?
JREF forum guy-I've been advocating for more transparency and accountability in gov't for years. Where have you been?

Oliver v1.2-Why are you all wasting your time dealing with Woos when you should be addressing the underlying causes of Woo?
JREF forum guy-FFS, Oliver. How long have you been posting here? Where have you been? Applying skepticism to the claims of Woos is a critical piece of addressing the underlying causes, which are primarily flaws in reasoning. And engaging Woos directly is the most expedient way to apply skepticism to their claims. But you've been here long enough that it should be obvious that JREF and its members do much more than argue with Woos. Jesus.


Edit: Your list, BTW, is not a list of causes of Trutherism.

[T.A.M.]

Concerning the MSM and how they dropped the ball around the Iraq War, etc, have a look at this excellent documentary I watched on PBS 2 weeks ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyQ1L0EuNoQ&mode=related&search=

TAM:)

[Brainster]

Because the "Truthers" are right about 9-11. No, not in their kooky conspiracy theories, but in the central importance of what happened on that day. It is indeed the most significant day in recent history. We all must make important decisions as citizens based on what happened on 9-11. It is hard enough to make the proper decisions based on a solid understanding of the past; how much more difficult is it to make decisions based on faulty historical knowledge?

[Elizabeth I]

The Weekly World News never made any pretense of being a serious newspaper. They were more a satire on the other tabloid rags. They hired creative writers to put together ridiculous stories, and everybody knew it.

And, if I'm not mistaken, they are ceasing publication:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070725/od_nm/americanmedia_tabloid1_dc

at least in print.

[chipmunk stew]

The Weekly World News never made any pretense of being a serious newspaper. They were more a satire on the other tabloid rags. They hired creative writers to put together ridiculous stories, and everybody knew it.

But Bat Boy was real, right?


...right? :(

[sleahead]

I'm sorry, but I feel much more free to express myself (uncensored) over here - because I simply know when I cross the line towards a lie and what social consequences this may have.

This is interesting, Oliver. You do have troofers in Germany, correct? What social consequences have they suffered when they crossed the line towards a lie? What has happened to Andreas Von Bulow?

[uk_dave]

What has happened to Andreas Von Bulow?

Didn't he poison his wife with insulin because she was sleeping with jeremy irons..... or something?

[portlandatheist]

Well, besides the fact that the Holocaust was kept secret to the majority of Germany and that foreign Intelligence knew about it a long time before the war, I don't believe in MIHOP or LIHOP. I just see the senselessness in fighting the results instead the sources.

I know that, just like the Bible. But unfortunately, others love the Woo much more than we do.

You're missing the point. The ONLY reason the holocaust was able to happen, was because the German public believed a bogus conspiracy theory.
Hitler said of the Protocols:
"It simply appalled me. The stealthiness of the enemy, and his ubiquity. I saw at once that we must copy it - in our own way of course - it is in truth
the critical battle for the fate of the world."
--Adolf Hitler
Hitler made the protocols required learning for school children and we all know what eventually happened. Imagine what kind of nightmare world we would live in if the truthers were in charge and their ideas were accepted by the masses? Antisemitism in modern day Germany is a HUGE problem and not just among the extreme right but is becoming mainstream among the left.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,498853,00.html
Tschüs

[Undesired Walrus]

Oliver, this is getting silly.

Stop trying to link EVERYTHING back to the 'failures' of the US government.

It's boring. You know it. We know it. We know that you know that we know it.

The sad thing is, we can all see in you this stage that men like yourself go through. It's just a shame this stage of your 'maturing' has to go through the channel of a public forum.

[Civilized Worm]

Is this for "mockery" reasons and entertainment? :confused:


For me, yes. And people with weird beliefs fascinate me.

[OldSchool]

"truthers" refuse to believe the obvious.


Isn't anything which's obvious. The current administration classified more documents every year, concurrently, until they started to refuse disclosing how many documents were being classified. The Bush administration now refuses to even say how many documents are classified each year.

No deduction can be made without all the facts. I tend to lean towards the side of conspiracy because of this. I'm old enough to assume the worst when politics are involved, and politics currently grip our nation like never before.

[A W Smith]

thats a difficult read right there.:confused:

[leftysergeant]

I just want punks like Killtown to know that they are not going to bully their betters into submission. Killtown posts a lie, I have a duty to make it known to all that it is a lie.

Killtown says that I am not a liberal, I hit him back with the assertion that he is not a liberal because he wants people to shut up and kiss his kundingi.

These fools are trying to infiltrate every part of society, and they need a door slammed in their faces at frequent intervals.

[stateofgrace]

Removing section copied out to AAH with other posts

how do you " deal " with this fact?

Spain's leading investigating judge issued the first known indictment against Osama bin Laden in the Sept. 11 attacks yesterday, accusing al-Qaida of using the country as a base to plot the devastating strikes on New York and Washington.
http://media.www.michigandaily.com/media/storage/paper851/news/2003/09/18/News/Spain.Indicts.Bin.Laden.For.Attacks-1418654.shtml

[LashL]

Why do I fight Truthers? Because I hate conspiracy theories with a passion. Allow me to explain why.

For starters, conspiracy theories are anti-intellectual. They spread lies about real events that people need to understand, and make informed decisions about. They contribute to "dumbing down." They arbitrarily accuse innocent people of involvement of heinous crimes. Conspiracy theories are thinly-veiled forms of anti-Semitism and other forms of hate -- things that our society has gone to great lengths to try to eradicate. And they're a scam! Lots of decent people get sucked into conspiracy theories pertaining to taxes and finance. They fork over thousands of dollars for dubious paperwork that ultimately lands them in jail. Not to mention the cottage industry of hawking dubious texts about JFK and 9-11 conspiracies. Centuries from now, libraries will contain books about our times that are filled with lies, slander, and absolute gibberish, just so David Ray Griffin and Dylan Avery can make a lousy buck. If there is a hell, I hope there's a very special circle of it reserved for people who perpetrate these falsehoods for their own gain.

Conspiracy theory is an unholy amalgam of arrogance, greed, irresponsibility, bigotry and ignorance. It's a belief system. And like any other belief system, when societies start putting aside logic and science in favor of whatever self-indulgent fiction they choose to believe in, bad things happen. Do I need to list examples?

Just look at the language Truthers use. Kevin Barrett would have you and I murdered for not being 9-11 Truthers. Self-preservation, that's usually a good reason to fight, right? I realize he's a lone nut with little or no ability to carry out such threats... but what if he were? What if some like-minded person were?

I've said it before, and I still believe it: someday, someone is going to die because of 9-11 Truth. Its endless accusations will justify, in the mind of the next Timothy McVeigh-style sicko our society produces, a murderous rampage in the name of punishing the government. Or the Truthers' confrontational/marketing posture at 9-11 events is going to incite a riot. There are other possibilities.

Conspiracy believers want to drag us back into an age of overarching cabals, spooky talismans, magical science, convenient scapegoats, intellectuals branded as heretics, and self-appointed experts whipping the masses into a frenzy for their own gain.

In short, I fight 9-11 Truthers -- among other conspiracy mongers -- because what they do is hurtful and dangerous to a civilized society.

This bears repeating.

Nominated.

[Oliver]

You're right, Oliver. We're doing nothing to address any of these things. :rolleyes:

Here's what I advocate: Ban government secrets; Ban all conspiracy-themed plots; Ban traumatic incidents; Ban urban myths; Ban alternative media; Ban woo-woo websites; Ban teenagers. That ought to do the trick.

It seems that you're always calling people out to do things that they're already doing.

Oliver v1.0-Why are you all sitting here on this forum instead of engaging the Truthers on their own turf?
JREF forum guy-I've been on several sites engaging them directly for months. Where have you been?

Oliver v1.1-Why are you all wasting your time with MIHOP and LIHOP nutjubs when there are real questions about the US gov't lies and secrets surrounding 9/11 and the war in Iraq?
JREF forum guy-I've been advocating for more transparency and accountability in gov't for years. Where have you been?

Oliver v1.2-Why are you all wasting your time dealing with Woos when you should be addressing the underlying causes of Woo?
JREF forum guy-FFS, Oliver. How long have you been posting here? Where have you been? Applying skepticism to the claims of Woos is a critical piece of addressing the underlying causes, which are primarily flaws in reasoning. And engaging Woos directly is the most expedient way to apply skepticism to their claims. But you've been here long enough that it should be obvious that JREF and its members do much more than argue with Woos. Jesus.


Edit: Your list, BTW, is not a list of causes of Trutherism.


Well - so what causes "Trutherism" according to your conclusion - if not society itself?

The Weekly World News never made any pretense of being a serious newspaper. They were more a satire on the other tabloid rags. They hired creative writers to put together ridiculous stories, and everybody knew it.

And, if I'm not mistaken, they are ceasing publication:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070725/od_nm/americanmedia_tabloid1_dc

at least in print.


The Weekly World News was just an example for a media that does allow to print everything they want - without any broad protest at all. So yes, I guess it has something to do with the social system itself which doesn't care about such things like Alex Jones or whatever misinformation. That's simply what I don't understand.

And by that I mean that Alex Jones isn't broadly debunked yet by people who disagree. But this would be a huge step to avoid a new generation of Truthers, wouldn't it?

This is interesting, Oliver. You do have troofers in Germany, correct? What social consequences have they suffered when they crossed the line towards a lie? What has happened to Andreas Von Bulow?


We have a very very view amount of Truthers, yes. But they are simply treated this way: "Piss of, you Moron". So they have no chance to implement their stupid Ideas without any evidence whatsoever. So nothing happend to Andreas von Bülow besides people tending to see him as being a nut-job.

You're missing the point. The ONLY reason the holocaust was able to happen, was because the German public believed a bogus conspiracy theory.
Hitler said of the Protocols:
"It simply appalled me. The stealthiness of the enemy, and his ubiquity. I saw at once that we must copy it - in our own way of course - it is in truth
the critical battle for the fate of the world."
--Adolf Hitler
Hitler made the protocols required learning for school children and we all know what eventually happened. Imagine what kind of nightmare world we would live in if the truthers were in charge and their ideas were accepted by the masses? Antisemitism in modern day Germany is a HUGE problem and not just among the extreme right but is becoming mainstream among the left.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,498853,00.html
Tschüs


Anti-semitism is a huge Problem in Germany? :confused: Says who? You know that Anti-semitism is a word that describes intolerance towards Jews, don't you? Now you might argue that intolerance is a problem - but personally I don't believe that it's a big one at all. And your "Tschüs" implies that you're aware of laws that simply forbid racism.

But this has nothing to do with Conspiracy Theories since this isn't a racial issue at all.

Oliver, this is getting silly.

Stop trying to link EVERYTHING back to the 'failures' of the US government.

It's boring. You know it. We know it. We know that you know that we know it.

The sad thing is, we can all see in you this stage that men like yourself go through. It's just a shame this stage of your 'maturing' has to go through the channel of a public forum.


Well, feel free to point out the reasons why people get Truthers in the first place. This is what this thread is about - and I will be glad if you can disproof my points and how they are NOT related to the problem itself.

And yes - I know it's unpopular. Just like Copernicus was unpopular for pointing out inconvenient facts.

For me, yes. And people with weird beliefs fascinate me.


Thank you for your honest answer, Civilized Worm. May I ask you what you think about what the sources of "Woo" are?

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

...
No deduction can be made without all the facts. I tend to lean towards the side of conspiracy because of this. I'm old enough to assume the worst when politics are involved, and politics currently grip our nation like never before.

Wait... no deduction can be made without all the facts... SO you make a deduction BASED ON NOT HAVING ALL THE FACTS that the conspiracy theories MUST be right? Wow... Just wow... Or should I say "WOO"

As for "old enough" you've mentioned in other posts that you were in highschool and college in the 90s. You may be old enough to vote... But to claim you've experienced enough to make giant sweeping generalizations that the entire world is run by conspiracists.

That's not you being "old enough" that is you being "inexperienced in the real world"

[Par]

Exactly - that's what he said: "It's part of the fun."



What did context ever do to you?

[Oliver]

What did context ever do to you?


Well, explain to me what he meant if I misinterpreted his message: What is his agenda if not for entertainment?

[Cuddles]

Well, explain to me what he meant if I misinterpreted his message: What is his agenda if not for entertainment?

Personally, I only engage as long as there's some educational content. Or unless they really step out of bounds.

Now that's entertainment.:rolleyes:

[Darth Rotor]

What sense does it make to fight their believes nevertheless - if other types of belief are much more dangerous?

Oliver:

I didn't give a hoot about Troofers until I followed a link from Maddox to this site, and saw Loose Change.

The libel and slander against Captain Burlingame (the Pilot in Command of American Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon) in Loose Change got my dander up. The fact that personal friends of mine in the Army, at the Pentagon that day, were about 50 meters from being dead is another factor. The fact that comrades of mine in the Navy section died when the plane hit is another factor.

That Dylan Avery, and all of the lying scum like him, choose to lie, to slander New York cops and firefighters, and to use lies to profit from the deaths of about 3000 people -- most American, some foreigners who happened to be there at the wrong place at the wrong time -- ought to make any decent man rise up in righteous wrath and strike back.

It really is that simple. For people from New York City, it's probably more emotionally based than my reaction, since their city was attacked, and now their people's graves are being danced upon for profit by liars.

When something you love is attacked, you don't just laugh it off. You strike back by the means you have to hand.

DR

[Oliver]

Oliver:

I didn't give a hoot about Troofers until I followed a link from Maddox to this site, and saw Loose Change.

The libel and slander against Captain Burlingame (the Pilot in Command of American Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon) in Loose Change got my dander up. The fact that personal friends of mine in the Army, at the Pentagon that day, were about 50 meters from being dead is another factor. The fact that comrades of mine in the Navy section died when the plane hit is another factor.

That Dylan Avery, and all of the lying scum like him, choose to lie, to slander New York cops and firefighters, and to use lies to profit from the deaths of about 3000 people -- most American, some foreigners who happened to be there at the wrong place at the wrong time -- ought to make any decent man rise up in righteous wrath and strike back.

It really is that simple. For people from New York City, it's probably more emotionally based than my reaction, since their city was attacked, and now their people's graves are being danced upon for profit by liars.

When something you love is attacked, you don't just laugh it off. You strike back by the means you have to hand.

DR


Well, but this brings me to the American way of "Free Speech". You should know from your environmental experience that this is just a part of your society. So why do you care if you're basically attacking "free speech"?

And by that I understand the reasons for you to fight "them" - but I don't understand why you cannot accept that this is part of free speech.

I know there is a difference between the US- and European way of "free expression" - but it's hard to differ between the individual point of views.

So while you're pointing to the problem itself - how problematic is "free speech" to you?

[Digest]

For the same reasons that people disseminate information to counter the lies of Holocaust deniers and revisionists.

i think this sums it up just perfectly.

[Cuddles]

Well, but this brings me to the American way of "Free Speech". You should know from your environmental experience that this is just a part of your society. So why do you care if you're basically attacking "free speech"?

And by that I understand the reasons for you to fight "them" - but I don't understand why you cannot accept that this is part of free speech.

I know there is a difference between the US- and European way of "free expression" - but it's hard to differ between the individual point of views.

So while you're pointing to the problem itself - how problematic is "free speech" to you?

Free speech does not mean you are free to say anything you like. I believe someone famous once said "Your right to swing your fist stops at the start of my chin", or something along those lines. Point being, you can say what you like as long as it doesn't harm anyone. Libel, slander, incitement to violence, hateful speech, and so on are all unprotected. If you tell lies about someone, that is not protected speech. If you tell people to hurt or kill others, as some truthers have done, that is not protected speech. It seems it is you who does not understand free speech.

Of course, all the legalities of what is actually allowed under free speech are irrelevant anyway. When it comes down to it, they may have the right to say whatever they want, within certain limits. Why should that mean that we don't have the right to say whatever we want about what they have said? Just because they are allowed to say something does not make them immune from challenge. They have the right to talk bollocks. We have the right to point out that they are talking bollocks.

[NoZed Avenger]

Well, but this brings me to the American way of "Free Speech". You should know from your environmental experience that this is just a part of your society. So why do you care if you're basically attacking "free speech"?



This is completely, 180 degrees wrong, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of free speech.

[Oliver]

Free speech does not mean you are free to say anything you like. I believe someone famous once said "Your right to swing your fist stops at the start of my chin", or something along those lines. Point being, you can say what you like as long as it doesn't harm anyone. Libel, slander, incitement to violence, hateful speech, and so on are all unprotected. If you tell lies about someone, that is not protected speech. If you tell people to hurt or kill others, as some truthers have done, that is not protected speech. It seems it is you who does not understand free speech.

Of course, all the legalities of what is actually allowed under free speech are irrelevant anyway. When it comes down to it, they may have the right to say whatever they want, within certain limits. Why should that mean that we don't have the right to say whatever we want about what they have said? Just because they are allowed to say something does not make them immune from challenge. They have the right to talk bollocks. We have the right to point out that they are talking bollocks.


I understand my environmental way of "Free expression" which restricts nothing as long you're not advocating violence against others. But the difference is that you will find much less acceptance about believing in "Ufos", for example. In this case you will be named "Nut" over here.

But "Ufos" are a classic example for much more tolerance concerning "Woo" in the United States. People over there accept these kind of non-logical opinions. But why don't they accept other Non-Logical-Opinions from Truthers as well?

Nobody is being harmed because of their beliefs - or am I wrong?

[Cuddles]

I understand my environmental way of "Free expression" which restricts nothing as long you're not advocating violence against others. But the difference is that you will find much less acceptance about believing in "Ufos", for example. In this case you will be named "Nut" over here.

But "Ufos" are a classic example for much more tolerance concerning "Woo" in the United States. People over there accept these kind of non-logical opinions. But why don't they accept other Non-Logical-Opinions from Truthers as well?

Nobody is being harmed because of their beliefs - or am I wrong?

Read the second paragraph of my last post. I'll repeat it again in case you missed it the first time:
They have the right to talk bollocks. We have the right to point out that they are talking bollocks.
Do you have a good reason why we shouldn't point this out? Why does someone have to be harmed before you will allow us to do so?

[Darth Rotor]

Well, but this brings me to the American way of "Free Speech". You should know from your environmental experience that this is just a part of your society. So why do you care if you're basically attacking "free speech"?

And by that I understand the reasons for you to fight "them" - but I don't understand why you cannot accept that this is part of free speech.

I know there is a difference between the US- and European way of "free expression" - but it's hard to differ between the individual point of views.

So while you're pointing to the problem itself - how problematic is "free speech" to you?
It is very simple, yet again, Oliver. You are attempting to overcomplicate a simple premise.

You are generally free to say what you like. That is the freedom of speech. With that comes an accountability: you are also free to look like an idiot when doing so, if you utter idiocy, and others are free to use their freedom of speech to point out that you are an idiot, or a wise person, or something in between, based on how you exercise your free speech. It is a dynamic, two way street.

The idea behind freedom of speech in the US was to ensure that the truth was heard, not suppressed. Public debate and discussion is a cornerstone of democracy. It is through the collision of positions and opinions, and ideas, and facts, that the open society is able to discuss, and sometimes amend, public policy. A superb example is the public debate, freely aired, of the Civil Rights movement's goals and aims in the 1950's and 1960's. That exercise of free speech led to policy change.

Likewise, freedom of the press, like free speech, is what got Nixon ousted from office, when the Washington Post's Woodward and Bernstein published their findings of fact, and surmise, on the Watergate break in. Had Woodward and Bernstein been lying, no good would have come of it. Since they were publishing what was substantially the truth, an error was eventually corrected.

It is of little social value to protect lies, and falsehoods, uttered in the public square. If I declare that all Mexican immigrants have AIDS, and are a health risk, I may through airing a lie harm perfectly innocent immigrants crossing the San Ysidro checkpoint, but having them detained, quarantined, or rejected based on a falsehood. So, my exercising freedom of speech with a lie can be harmful. I ought to only speak the truth, if I want freedom of speech to work for me, and for my fellow citizens.

The TROOFER movement has a habit of airing falsehood. This is detrimental to, not in support of, public debate and policy formation in a democracy.

For another example, false advertising is a form of fraud, and is illegal. Looked at from a certain way, that means lying is illegal. (Certainly for commercial purposes.) Slander and libel are also illegal, unless absence of malice can be used as a defense. Some snake oil salesmen lose revenue, or get punished, since false advertising is legal, but homeopathy still makes some people money. Note that the JREF Also Fights Homeopathy, dubiously based in non medicine and of suspect truthfullness, and Sylvia Browne, a charlatan.

Do you see the consistency? If you don't, please start thinking critically.

DR

[Oliver]

Read the second paragraph of my last post. I'll repeat it again in case you missed it the first time:

Do you have a good reason why we shouldn't point this out? Why does someone have to be harmed before you will allow us to do so?




It is very simple, yet again, Oliver. You are attempting to overcomplicate a simple premise.

You are generally free to say what you like. That is the freedom of speech. With that comes an accountability: you are also free to look like an idiot when doing so, if you utter idiocy, and others are free to use their freedom of speech to point out that you are an idiot, or a wise person, or something in between, based on how you exercise your free speech. It is a dynamic, two way street.

The idea behind freedom of speech in the US was to ensure that the truth was heard, not suppressed. Public debate and discussion is a cornerstone of democracy. It is through the collision of positions and opinions, and ideas, and facts, that the open society is able to discuss, and sometimes amend, public policy. A superb example is the public debate, freely aired, of the Civil Rights movement's goals and aims in the 1950's and 1960's. That exercise of free speech led to policy change.

Likewise, freedom of the press, like free speech, is what got Nixon ousted from office, when the Washington Post's Woodward and Bernstein published their findings of fact, and surmise, on the Watergate break in. Had Woodward and Bernstein been lying, no good would have come of it. Since they were publishing what was substantially the truth, an error was eventually corrected.

It is of little social value to protect lies, and falsehoods, uttered in the public square. If I declare that all Mexican immigrants have AIDS, and are a health risk, I may through airing a lie harm perfectly innocent immigrants crossing the San Ysidro checkpoint, but having them detained, quarantined, or rejected based on a falsehood. So, my exercising freedom of speech with a lie can be harmful. I ought to only speak the truth, if I want freedom of speech to work for me, and for my fellow citizens.

The TROOFER movement has a habit of airing falsehood. This is detrimental to, not in support of, public debate and policy formation in a democracy.

For another example, false advertising is a form of fraud, and is illegal. Looked at from a certain way, that means lying is illegal. (Certainly for commercial purposes.) Slander and libel are also illegal, unless absence of malice can be used as a defense. Some snake oil salesmen lose revenue, or get punished, since false advertising is legal, but homeopathy still makes some people money. Note that the JREF Also Fights Homeopathy, dubiously based in non medicine and of suspect truthfullness, and Sylvia Browne, a charlatan.

Do you see the consistency? If you don't, please start thinking critically.

DR


I see the consistency but I don't understand the difference between "free speech" and "free expression" since there is a difference between the US and the EU and I'm not sure if I understand it correctly.

"Free Speech" implies that I can state my opinion without being persecuted for my free opinion - but my experiences in public boards in the US is contrarily to this because I cannot say MF'er, for example. So my "free speech" is indeed suppressed in US-Boards in contrast to "free expression" over here.

How do you explain the differences between the "Old" and the "New World"?

And to address the topic of this thread: What are the sources of Truthers and their beliefs in your opinion?

[dirtywick]

I see the consistency but I don't understand the difference between "free speech" and "free expression" since there is a difference between the US and the EU and I'm not sure if I understand it correctly.

"Free Speech" implies that I can state my opinion without being persecuted for my free opinion - but my experiences in public boards in the US is contrarily to this because I cannot say MF'er, for example. So my "free speech" is indeed suppressed in US-Boards in contrast to "free expression" over here.

You've been persecuted for stating your opinions on MF'ers?

I know you know this, but it should be pointed out that in no way is JREF a part of the US government. They can censor and ban anything they'd like as a private entity, just in the same way that if you started throwing around MF'er-bombs around my daughter I'd kick out the MF out of my house.

Do you understand? You can say whatever you like. JREF or any internet message board can delete your comments or ban you at their discretion. But they can't go cry to the government and charge you with a crime. It's also a part of my freedoms in the US to keep myself, my family, and my private property (which includes web space) away from your opinions and language if I so desire, just as it is (well, would be if you were American) within you rights to open your own message board and turn the curse filters off and wax incest until your fingers bleed in all of it's uncensored and detailed glory. The government won't stop you.

[Pardalis]

"Free Speech" implies that I can state my opinion without being persecuted for my free opinion - but my experiences in public boards in the US is contrarily to this because I cannot say MF'er, for example. So my "free speech" is indeed suppressed in US-Boards in contrast to "free expression" over here.


For crying out loud Oliver, vulgarity has nothing to do with free speech.

Why do you want to say MF'er so badly?

[Oliver]

For crying out loud Oliver, vulgarity has nothing to do with free speech.

Why do you want to say MF'er so badly?


I don't want to say "MF'er" so badly, Goury. It's the fact that I'm not allowed to express my emotions - that leads me to the conclusion that "Free Speech" is an illusion.

The difference is that I cannot express how I feel if I try to hit the nail and hit my finger instead.
In this case I would indeed scream: "F!!!". What's wrong with having emotions?

I guess you have a different opinion about that in Canada, don't you?

And in the hope you give your opinion about the source of "Truth": Do you personally see a difference between the US and Canada that is responsible to the different amounts of "Truths"? :confused:

[Darth Rotor]

I see the consistency but I don't understand the difference between "free speech" and "free expression" since there is a difference between the US and the EU and I'm not sure if I understand it correctly.
That difference is irrelevant for this discussion.
"Free Speech" implies that I can state my opinion without being persecuted
No. You can be ridiculed by anyone for holding an idiotic opinion, and publicly humiliated for being a damned fool. See Paris Hilton for a fine test case.

Profanity on privately operated internet forums have nothing to do with Free Speech. Nothing. At. All. Free Speech norms in America tend to be based on the relationship between the people and the government. This has been explained to you before. On the Management Forum. Your wilfullness in ignoring the reasoned responses to your question on that matter is a demonstration of both stubbornness, lack of wit, and unwillingness to learn.

Oliver, I fear you are incapable of critical thinking, as demonstrated by your last three month's activity. Please, do not desert, do not switch sides and join the forces of Teh Stupid. Stay on the side of The War Against Stupid, even if you think Teh Stupid is President Bush. Use critical thinking, not emotion and spin. Please. We'd all prefer that you were fighting on the right side, with the right weapons. I will point, again, to Dr Adequate, with whom I often disagree. He fights against Teh Stupid, but he usually refrains from using fallacy, and a fool's tools, to do so.
How do you explain the differences between the "Old" and the "New World"?
The US Constitution is the general baseline for American, not "all new world" Free Speech norms. First Amendment, and some of the Supreme Court rulings on the topic, are the governing guidelines. Read. (To be smut it must be utterly without redeeming social importance, for example. ;) )
As to the difference between New and Old world, Oliver, you just went OT again. Try starting another thread for that. The topic fills a few thousand tracts on history, politics, and sociology.
And to address the topic of this thread: What are the sources of Truthers and their beliefs in your opinion?
The topic is "Why Fighting Truthers." I have already spelled that out clearly and concisely in this thread. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2901046&postcount=108) Please go back and read my first response to you. You responded with a moving of the goalposts, and a move toward OT.

To further elaborate, I am in the war against stupid. Spreading falsehood in the particular way Troofers do it is a ration of stupid. It is also unhelpful in the public discourse, as is all falsehood. In a war, I tend to attack.

DR

[Oliver]

That difference It is irrelevant for this discussion.

No. You can be ridiculed by anyone for holding an idiotic opinion, and publically humiliated for being a damned fool. See Paris Hilton for a fine test case.

Profanity on privately operated internet forums have nothing to do with free public speech. Nothing. At. All.

The US Constitution is the general baseline for American, not "all new world" Free Speech norms. First Amendment, and some of the Supreme Court rulings on the topic. (To be smut it must be utterly without redeeming social importance, for example. ;) )
As to the difference between New and Old world, Oliver, you just went OT again. Try starting another thread for that, Oliver, it fills a few thousand tracts on history, politics, and sociology.

The topic is "Why Fighting Truthers." I have already spelled that out clearly and concisely in this thread. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2901046&postcount=108) Please go back and read my first response to you. You responded with a moving of the goalposts, and a move toward OT.

To further elaborate, I am in the war against stupid. Spreading falsehood in the particular way Troofers do it, is a ration of stupid. It is also unhelpful in the public discourse, as is all falsehood. In a war, I attack.

DR


Well, I've read your initial post in this thread. So let me ask: What's the source of this anti-trust against the US-Government - and why isn't this the case in such a scale in other countries? :confused:

[Pardalis]

I don't want to say "MF'er" so badly, Goury. It's the fact that I'm not allowed to express my emotions - that leads me to the conclusion that "Free Speech" is an illusion.

It has nothing to do with free speech.

Please read:

http://www.answers.com/topic/decorum

The difference is that I cannot express how I feel if I try to hit the nail and hit my finger instead. You can express how you feel, just use words that are not vulgar.

I guess you have a different opinion about that in Canada, don't you?I swear all the time (I'm swearing right now), but in a public place, I do not. It's common decency.

And in the hope you give your opinion about the source of "Truth"I already did.

[chipmunk stew]

Well, I've read your initial post in this thread. So let me ask: What's the source of this anti-trust against the US-Government - and why isn't this the case in such a scale in other countries? :confused:
Your impression doesn't count. Do you have any facts that support all the distinctions you have been drawing between the US and the rest of the world?

[Oliver]

It has nothing to do with free speech.

Please read:

http://www.answers.com/topic/decorum

You can express how you feel, just use words that are not vulgar.

I swear all the time (I'm swearing right now), but in a public place, I do not. It's common decency.

I already did.


I understand what "decorum" is - and you should know that I know that by now, Goury. The difference is that I'm not allowed to say F when I hit my thumb instead the nail - which is oppression to me. But I'm okay with that since this is a cultural thing which contradicts with my understanding of free expression.

Your impression doesn't count. Do you have any facts that support all the distinctions you have been drawing between the US and the rest of the world?



Of course I do: There is no way that you could spread "Ufo", "Anti-Government", "Creationism", "Invasion"-Woo without being ridiculed by everyone else in your environment. So what's the difference - why aren't people talking about "Government-CT's", "Ufos", "Creationism", "Evildoers" and so on ridiculed in the US as well? What's the cultural difference?

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

"Free Speech" implies that I can state my opinion without being persecuted for my free opinion - but my experiences in public boards in the US is contrarily to this because I cannot say MF'er, for example. So my "free speech" is indeed suppressed in US-Boards in contrast to "free expression" over here.

Let me put it this way... Restricting swear words helps keep things civil. I agree that the occasional swear word can help emphasize your point. And while I wouldn't yell one out in front of my mother or boss, there's no reason to ban it from everyday speech.

However, when there's no set in stone policy on swearing on a forum, you tend to attract attention of idiots who can not express their opinion on what their favorite pizza topping is without 3 swear words or more.

A forum tends to degenerate the more prolific these posters get.

Also... Freedom of Speech is protected from a law being made by the GOVERNMENT restricting what you can or can not say. A forum is not public, and the owner has every right to set their rules. Whether it's "Don't swear, even if you're talking about shiitake mushrooms or your shihtzu puppy."

Personally I believe the FCC's "guidelines" on swearing over public airways are bordering on being against the 1st amendment, but as I get older I understand that I wouldn't want my kids hearing some loser on TV or on the radio who can not express their opinion on what their favorite pizza topping is without 3 swear words or more. I'd rather my kids grow up articulate, and not as foul-mouthed parrots.

Anyways, no where is the government stopping you from swearing on forums based in the U.S. Your point is invalid.

EDIT: Also.. Freedom of Speech goes both ways. You're free to spout off something idiotic. And I'm free to call you an idiot for your stand on a topic. (Whether either of us are wrong or not)

It seems people who complain about their "speech" being repressed are really complaining that their speech is being met with derision.

[Pardalis]

The difference is that I'm not allowed to say F when I hit my thumb instead the nail - which is oppression to me.

???????

[Oliver]

Let me put it this way... Restricting swear words helps keep things civil. I agree that the occasional swear word can help emphasize your point. And while I wouldn't yell one out in front of my mother or boss, there's no reason to ban it from everyday speech.

However, when there's no set in stone policy on swearing on a forum, you tend to attract attention of idiots who can not express their opinion on what their favorite pizza topping is without 3 swear words or more.

A forum tends to degenerate the more prolific these posters get.

Also... Freedom of Speech is protected from a law being made by the GOVERNMENT restricting what you can or can not say. A forum is not public, and the owner has every right to set their rules. Whether it's "Don't swear, even if you're talking about shiitake mushrooms or your shihtzu puppy."

Personally I believe the FCC's "guidelines" on swearing over public airways are bordering on being against the 1st amendment, but as I get older I understand that I wouldn't want my kids hearing some loser on TV or on the radio who can not express their opinion on what their favorite pizza topping is without 3 swear words or more. I'd rather my kids grow up articulate, and not as foul-mouthed parrots.

Anyways, no where is the government stopping you from swearing on forums based in the U.S. Your point is invalid.


I appreciate your opinion and I also understand your point of view - but you also should realize that a *Beeeep* always implicates that someone was swearing - and that children realize this as well. So the *beeeep*-solution doesn't cover that swearing is part of our societies, does it?

And to ask you about the sources: What do you think are the differences between all the US-CT's that came up during the last 50 years and the few CT's that evolved in the rest of the world.

Meaning: How do you explain the amount of CT's originating in the States?

[Oliver]

???????


By that I meant: If Goury is annoying me to the point on which I will explode - what's wrong by exploding with the words: "F you, Goury"?

It would be honest to say what I feel, wouldn't it?

[Pardalis]

Oliver, read that thread again.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=79888

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

I understand what "decorum" is - and you should know that I know that by now, Goury. The difference is that I'm not allowed to say F when I hit my thumb instead the nail - which is oppression to me. But I'm okay with that since this is a cultural thing which contradicts with my understanding of free expression.

That's a load of bull. Where do you live that you have a language police running around fining you for not swearing?

Of course I do: There is no way that you could spread "Ufo", "Anti-Government", "Creationism", "Invasion"-Woo without being ridiculed by everyone else in your environment. So what's the difference - why aren't people talking about "Government-CT's", "Ufos", "Creationism", "Evildoers" and so on ridiculed in the US as well? What's the cultural difference?

It's very interesting... People who tend to believe that "Woo" *are* ridiculed, and learn to keep their mouth shut while seeking out like minded individuals. Then they get together and finally have a small community that believes the same, with no one questioning their beliefs (i.e. creationist towns, or truthers) Suddenly they think they're sane and that they have a legit concern, and they're emboldened by their like-minded knuckle draggers... and start spouting off their insanity to the world... By this time, it's impossible to correct them.

[chipmunk stew]

Of course I do: There is no way that you could spread "Ufo", "Anti-Government", "Creationism", "Invasion"-Woo without being ridiculed by everyone else in your environment. So what's the difference - why aren't people talking about "Government-CT's", "Ufos", "Creationism", "Evildoers" and so on ridiculed in the US as well? What's the cultural difference?
These are not facts. They are your impressions. This is a forum for skeptics. Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that credulity is more widespread in the US than in the rest of the world?

[Drudgewire]

Does this board make you pay taxes? Did you elect the admins?

No? Well then the First Amendment doesn't apply here. What does apply is the membership agreement you accepted when you joined here.

[chipmunk stew]

I appreciate your opinion and I also understand your point of view - but you also should realize that a *Beeeep* always implicates that someone was swearing - and that children realize this as well. So the *beeeep*-solution doesn't cover that swearing is part of our societies, does it?

And to ask you about the sources: What do you think are the differences between all the US-CT's that came up during the last 50 years and the few CT's that evolved in the rest of the world.

Meaning: How do you explain the amount of CT's originating in the States?
Speaking of sources, what is your source of evidence that there is such a disparity? You're stating it as though it's a given. It's not a given until you've demonstrated it satisfactorily.

[Pardalis]

Damn, I just stump my toe. Hey everybody, I just stump my toe!

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

I appreciate your opinion and I also understand your point of view - but you also should realize that a *Beeeep* always implicates that someone was swearing - and that children realize this as well. So the *beeeep*-solution doesn't cover that swearing is part of our societies, does it?
I agree. search the web for "Unnecessary Censorship". There are some good video clips made by some talk show host in the US (Jimmy Kimmel I think) where they bleep normal everyday words in news clips, with saucy results!

I also remember as a little kid, in the 70s reading my brother's MAD magazines where there was a cartoon showing a family watching something on TV with bleeps, and thought bubbles in everyone's head (including the dog's) was filling in what the word could have been (ironically filled in with @#!##$%)

While we do laugh and chuckle at edited for airplane movies that replace swear words with the actor saying a similar word "idiot" instead of A[rule10] "forget you" instead of you know... For a kid, that's just right... But then again, maybe the kid shouldn't be watching that movie. But... it's up to the parents anyways to make that decision. Not the state.

And to ask you about the sources: What do you think are the differences between all the US-CT's that came up during the last 50 years and the few CT's that evolved in the rest of the world.

Meaning: How do you explain the amount of CT's originating in the States?

Lack of education, a inherent distrust of the government coming out of their babyboomer parents. Plus the government doesn't exactly do anything to discourage these CT's.

A few years back, I took a ride out to Area 51 after losing money in Vegas during a bachelor party (I have a picture of me standing in front of the warning sign that says "No Pictures Allowed") and me and my friends stopped in Rachel Nevada. This small, small, small town was full of kooks. And they had their kook babies and continued on their kookiness.

I'll write more. I've got a meeting in a few minutes.

[Undesired Walrus]

"Free Speech" implies that I can state my opinion without being persecuted

You clearly have never been to Speakers Corner.

[Darth Rotor]

Well, I've read your initial post in this thread. So let me ask: What's the source of this anti-trust against the US-Government -
It is inherent in our form of government, and the founding principles of our nation, and the principles that underwrite our constitution. The general American theme is that government ought to be limited in form, and that one is in error to simply trust the government. See the Amendments 9 and 10 of the US Constitution, the First Amendment, and the explicit deliniation of powers in Articles One Through Four.

Also, read the Federalist Papers. Good stuff on understanding what the thinking was behind the Constitution, or at least some of the thinking behind it.
and why isn't this the case in such a scale in other countries? :confused:
You are making an assertion in the form of a question here: why do you assert that distrust of the government isn't common in other countries?

IIRC, what you just did was called Begging the Question (http://skepdic.com/begging.html). Familiar with that?

In other words, Oliver, have you stopped beating your dog with a barbed wire whip? :p

As to trusting one's government, have you ever been to Italy? You might want to ask Matteo Martini about that one.

DR

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Meaning: How do you explain the amount of CT's originating in the States?

Keep in mind, many of these CT's have their roots in the grandpappy of CT's... The Protocols of Zion... Which did NOT start in the U.S.

Also, as I'm ignorant as to other CT's in other countries other than The Palestinians saying that Israelis make cookies out of the blood of muslims and Christians, or the Chupacabra or the Loch Ness Monster. I can not really comment on why more come out of the U.S. because I can't say whether more or less come out of the U.S. However, I'll stand by what I said before. Those who follow this woo tend to lack in education, while those who come up with it tend to have some serious mental issues.

[Pardalis]

Those who follow this woo tend to lack in education, while those who come up with it tend to have some serious mental issues.

Now Oliver is going to be convinced Americans are uneducated and/or nuts.

[dudalb]

I guess that the fact that this forum is private property,owned by Randi,and he can run it by any damn set of rules he wants seems to be beyond the comprehension of Oliver.
The First Admendment was meant to keep the Government from abridging Free Speech. It does not mean that you cannot throw people out of your home if they use speech offensive to you.Understand the difference.?

[dudalb]

Now Oliver is going to be convinced Americans are uneducated and/or nuts.

Nah,he is just revealing what he has believed for a long time.
There will be little difference between him and Ion within a few months.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Now Oliver is going to be convinced Americans are uneducated and/or nuts.

That's not an exercise in rational thinking. Taking the words of an anonymous user on a forum as fact.

I cite Matt Stone and Trey Parker who claim 25% of the population is retarded through no fault of their own. That same population tend to believe whatever is told to them without question. Truthers are a subset of these "retards".

:duck:

[dirtywick]

I understand what "decorum" is - and you should know that I know that by now, Goury. The difference is that I'm not allowed to say F when I hit my thumb instead the nail - which is oppression to me. But I'm okay with that since this is a cultural thing which contradicts with my understanding of free expression.

Why do you keep saying things like this? Do you think the US government is putting microchips in us that prevent us from louding exclaiming curse words? Where are you getting this idea?

[Pardalis]

I was listening to the Skeptics Guide's latest podcast, which played a clip of the late Perry DeAngelis' conferences about cult belief. He was talking at one point about fantasy prone personalities, which I think is relevant to this topic.

http://media-c02m01.libsyn.com/podcasts/cedd536802cfd5476e255907909f23ae/46d5cf48/skepticsguide/skepticast2007-08-24.mp3
http://www.csicop.org/si/9605/mack.html

[dudalb]

I just pegged Oliver: He is a Baader-Meinhoff Gang wannabe.

[Slayhamlet]

Well, I've read your initial post in this thread. So let me ask: What's the source of this anti-trust against the US-Government - and why isn't this the case in such a scale in other countries? :confused:

You sound confused. Antitrust is a body of laws enforceable by the US Government which aim at preventing unfair business practices, typically against large corporations. It has nothing to do with free speech.

Perhaps you meant mistrust?

[hellaeon]

For someone averaging 21 posts a day on this forum, im suprised you would blame the environment people are in with such a clear cut drawn line.
You should know better then that.

Environment is surely a factor, but I think a predisposition to mental illness may help. Evidence? I dont have any numbers. But I can make a case by reciting some of the theories that well up in the movement such as microwave weapons, CGI planes and flyovers.

Again I have no other evidence then my own uneducated observation.

[hellaeon]

That's not an exercise in rational thinking. Taking the words of an anonymous user on a forum as fact.

I cite Matt Stone and Trey Parker who claim 25% of the population is retarded through no fault of their own. That same population tend to believe whatever is told to them without question. Truthers are a subset of these "retards".

:duck:

Hahaha I tried to put it more eloquently.
I grew up in a christian family, went to church all the time. Why am I an Athiest? I guess its because im in Australia....

[hellaeon]

I appreciate your opinion and I also understand your point of view - but you also should realize that a *Beeeep* always implicates that someone was swearing - and that children realize this as well. So the *beeeep*-solution doesn't cover that swearing is part of our societies, does it?

And to ask you about the sources: What do you think are the differences between all the US-CT's that came up during the last 50 years and the few CT's that evolved in the rest of the world.

Meaning: How do you explain the amount of CT's originating in the States?

For me, there is a high level of activity of US Conspiracies in Australia and I would assume this because America has such a large representation within the media in Australia. The next country with a large media presence in Aus is probably England. And of course that includes all their psychics, crop circles and ghosts.

So to me, it appears the USA and then England are the woo capitals. But thats only because of the media saturation. In effect our enviroments lead us to our conclusions like your saying.

But we both know thats not so cut and dried. It does not just stop there. I know the same level of woo is found elsewhere and have seen and read many examples of it. It's just not saturated within our media's. I still dont buy it, and neither do many firends. Hence I lean towards a mental or educational reason not just environment. Although you could place your genetic makeup under environment.

Edit: Reading back I dont think helps explain anything I think. What a confusing post!

[Oliver]

That's a load of bull. Where do you live that you have a language police running around fining you for not swearing?

It's very interesting... People who tend to believe that "Woo" *are* ridiculed, and learn to keep their mouth shut while seeking out like minded individuals. Then they get together and finally have a small community that believes the same, with no one questioning their beliefs (i.e. creationist towns, or truthers) Suddenly they think they're sane and that they have a legit concern, and they're emboldened by their like-minded knuckle draggers... and start spouting off their insanity to the world... By this time, it's impossible to correct them.


And I understand that it's getting very hard to correct them at this time. But they will find out how stupid they are on their own. So why trying to educate them in the first place if they use to see different opinions as being a confirmation of their belief.

How do you explain that Woo can prosper in the first place in a modern society that has all the answers to debunk Woo if people actually spend some time to sort out claims from facts. You know that conspiracy theorists pick up things that fit into their Belief - just like religious Nuts.

So how do you explain the prospering Woo like "Creationism" - and how do you explain that this isn't any issue at all in european Christian societies? What's the difference in your opinion between the US-Creationism-Woo and the logic Darwinism present in Europe?

These are not facts. They are your impressions. This is a forum for skeptics. Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that credulity is more widespread in the US than in the rest of the world?


Yes, I have. Just recently I stumbled over a discussion in National TV that would make people over hear laugh out loudly:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2007/08/22/pne.shocking.church.signs.cnn

The so called "Bible Belt" and the Christian Right are pretty good examples of a Woo-Society that tries to embed their beliefs into politics. Also presidential Candidates being asked about Creationism is such an indicator of how much religion plays a role at all. There are thousand examples of that and I try to figure out the differences in our societies - because God doesn't make the News at all over here - especially not concerning any political issue.

Does this board make you pay taxes? Did you elect the admins?

No? Well then the First Amendment doesn't apply here. What does apply is the membership agreement you accepted when you joined here.


I'm not talking about a skeptic-forum that censors "free thinking" - I'm talking about a society that has no problem to literally blow a childs brain out in Iraq but has a problem to show these facts in the Media because Americans don't deserve ugly facts since it doesn't support the heroic Soldiers.

Speaking of sources, what is your source of evidence that there is such a disparity? You're stating it as though it's a given. It's not a given until you've demonstrated it satisfactorily.


The main difference is that Conspiracy Theories over here don't make it into the attention of a broader audience. Basically Conspiracy Theories don't exist about todays government over here.

Why?

Because people over here seems to be more factual than people in the US. And I try to figure out the differences in our societies that I formerly thought doesn't exist.

Damn, I just stump my toe. Hey everybody, I just stump my toe!


Careful now - stumping on someones Toes is a "sexual act" in a free country. :boggled:

I agree. search the web for "Unnecessary Censorship". There are some good video clips made by some talk show host in the US (Jimmy Kimmel I think) where they bleep normal everyday words in news clips, with saucy results!

I also remember as a little kid, in the 70s reading my brother's MAD magazines where there was a cartoon showing a family watching something on TV with bleeps, and thought bubbles in everyone's head (including the dog's) was filling in what the word could have been (ironically filled in with @#!##$%)

While we do laugh and chuckle at edited for airplane movies that replace swear words with the actor saying a similar word "idiot" instead of A[rule10] "forget you" instead of you know... For a kid, that's just right... But then again, maybe the kid shouldn't be watching that movie. But... it's up to the parents anyways to make that decision. Not the state.

Lack of education, a inherent distrust of the government coming out of their babyboomer parents. Plus the government doesn't exactly do anything to discourage these CT's.

A few years back, I took a ride out to Area 51 after losing money in Vegas during a bachelor party (I have a picture of me standing in front of the warning sign that says "No Pictures Allowed") and me and my friends stopped in Rachel Nevada. This small, small, small town was full of kooks. And they had their kook babies and continued on their kookiness.

I'll write more. I've got a meeting in a few minutes.


Well, what are parents teaching their children in terms of woo - and why aren't parents more factual in the modern world be live?

And how can Woo spread at all? The creationism is the best proof right now that Woo is pretty much accepted in the US - and the mainstream media failing to debunk these things out of fear or influence concerning the powerful Christian movement proofs this.

You will not find this kind of Woo over here - because people will tend to laugh about that - including the Media over here. There is no chance to spread Woo unless facts are completely absent.

You clearly have never been to Speakers Corner.


You mean "speakers corner" in the Uk? No - I never was there. What's your point about it - and how does it correlate to Woo in general in the UK?

It is inherent in our form of government, and the founding principles of our nation, and the principles that underwrite our constitution. The general American theme is that government ought to be limited in form, and that one is in error to simply trust the government. See the Amendments 9 and 10 of the US Constitution, the First Amendment, and the explicit deliniation of powers in Articles One Through Four.

Also, read the Federalist Papers. Good stuff on understanding what the thinking was behind the Constitution, or at least some of the thinking behind it.

You are making an assertion in the form of a question here: why do you assert that distrust of the government isn't common in other countries?

IIRC, what you just did was called Begging the Question (http://skepdic.com/begging.html). Familiar with that?

In other words, Oliver, have you stopped beating your dog with a barbed wire whip? :p

As to trusting one's government, have you ever been to Italy? You might want to ask Matteo Martini about that one.

DR


Well, how does it come that Matteo isn't spreading the wildest conspiracies about his government - involving Ufos, Aliens, False Flags, Creationism and so on. Maybe you should ask him why he and his country prefers to stick to the facts instead making the wildest claims including the strangest Woo. Personally it is indeed a factual society that is more factual than the US is, for example.

And while I know the paranoia concerning the Government that lead to the amendments in the first place - why is this skepticism still alive if not because there is a reason to distrust the Govenment today as well.

From what I see, your Government displays all possible reasons to be skeptic about it - but over here I see no reasons of being so skeptical as well, simply because our Government isn't that secret at all:

No "Sorry, confidential".
No "I don't recall".
No "You don't deserve the fact about what we're doing".
No "God told me"-politicans.
No "We are the good ones"-Speeches.

Keep in mind, many of these CT's have their roots in the grandpappy of CT's... The Protocols of Zion... Which did NOT start in the U.S.

Also, as I'm ignorant as to other CT's in other countries other than The Palestinians saying that Israelis make cookies out of the blood of muslims and Christians, or the Chupacabra or the Loch Ness Monster. I can not really comment on why more come out of the U.S. because I can't say whether more or less come out of the U.S. However, I'll stand by what I said before. Those who follow this woo tend to lack in education, while those who come up with it tend to have some serious mental issues.


No no, it isn't that easy. On one hand it has nothing to do with any mental issues besides naivety based on breading. On the other Hand the US is the most famous country for CT's from my european point of view - and I don't completely understand why that is. It's a social issue and I don't know all the factors involved. But you certainly will not find such an amount in Europeans daily news - or life. Well, besides some nuts we also have in a much smaller amount.

I guess that the fact that this forum is private property,owned by Randi,and he can run it by any damn set of rules he wants seems to be beyond the comprehension of Oliver.
The First Admendment was meant to keep the Government from abridging Free Speech. It does not mean that you cannot throw people out of your home if they use speech offensive to you.Understand the difference.?


I understand the difference. But I also understand this is a forum for "free thinkers". Anyway - the thread isn't about the forum and I also addressed my concerns regarding the forum here:

http://www.randi.org/forumlive/images/icons/icon4.gif http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/icons/membersonly.gif Racism ... and doing nothing about it (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89180) http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/misc/new_window.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89180) (http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89180) 2 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89180&page=2))
Oliver (4th August 2007)



http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/icons/membersonly.gif Split from: Free *beeep* Speech (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=83300) http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/misc/new_window.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=83300)
Oliver (28th May 2007)



http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/icons/membersonly.gif Split from: Free *beeep* Speech (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=83300) http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/misc/new_window.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=83300)
Oliver (28th May 2007)


Nah,he is just revealing what he has believed for a long time.
There will be little difference between him and Ion within a few months.


BS! Ion is a little bit "off the scale" - but I didn't have the opportunity yet to discuss him "Face to Face"...

That's not an exercise in rational thinking. Taking the words of an anonymous user on a forum as fact.

I cite Matt Stone and Trey Parker who claim 25% of the population is retarded through no fault of their own. That same population tend to believe whatever is told to them without question. Truthers are a subset of these "retards".

:duck:


That's not true if I take the "Scholars" into account. It's no matter of "retardiness" at all.

Why do you keep saying things like this? Do you think the US government is putting microchips in us that prevent us from louding exclaiming curse words? Where are you getting this idea?


What Idea? I don't think the US-Gov is capable of doing anything without being debunked on the spot. The point I was talking about that people in the US tend to believe their governments whenever there is a new, evil "Castro", "Saddam", "communism" or something like that. How can someone swallow this fear-mongering and be suspicious about the Government at the same time?

I was listening to the Skeptics Guide's latest podcast, which played a clip of the late Perry DeAngelis' conferences about cult belief. He was talking at one point about fantasy prone personalities, which I think is relevant to this topic.

http://media-c02m01.libsyn.com/podcasts/cedd536802cfd5476e255907909f23ae/46d5cf48/skepticsguide/skepticast2007-08-24.mp3
http://www.csicop.org/si/9605/mack.html


I'm listening to it right now, Goury. May I ask you for your personal distinction between the US- and Canadian Society? Do you see any difference at all - especially concerning CT's?

I just pegged Oliver: He is a Baader-Meinhoff Gang wannabe.


Wrong.

You sound confused. Antitrust is a body of laws enforceable by the US Government which aim at preventing unfair business practices, typically against large corporations. It has nothing to do with free speech.

Perhaps you meant mistrust?


I meant mistrust - and I apologize that my english isn't as good as my sharp german language. But I'm learning fast. :)

For someone averaging 21 posts a day on this forum, im suprised you would blame the environment people are in with such a clear cut drawn line.
You should know better then that.

Environment is surely a factor, but I think a predisposition to mental illness may help. Evidence? I dont have any numbers. But I can make a case by reciting some of the theories that well up in the movement such as microwave weapons, CGI planes and flyovers.

Again I have no other evidence then my own uneducated observation.


BS. It's no mental issue at all besides a lack of facts and preferring claims instead. That's no indicator for any mental defect at all. Is it?

Hahaha I tried to put it more eloquently.
I grew up in a christian family, went to church all the time. Why am I an Athiest? I guess its because im in Australia....


Well, so what's the difference you see between Australia and the US concerning the topic: "Woo"?

Are you saying there are no differences at all? :confused:

For me, there is a high level of activity of US Conspiracies in Australia and I would assume this because America has such a large representation within the media in Australia. The next country with a large media presence in Aus is probably England. And of course that includes all their psychics, crop circles and ghosts.

So to me, it appears the USA and then England are the woo capitals. But thats only because of the media saturation. In effect our enviroments lead us to our conclusions like your saying.

But we both know thats not so cut and dried. It does not just stop there. I know the same level of woo is found elsewhere and have seen and read many examples of it. It's just not saturated within our media's. I still dont buy it, and neither do many firends. Hence I lean towards a mental or educational reason not just environment. Although you could place your genetic makeup under environment.

Edit: Reading back I dont think helps explain anything I think. What a confusing post!


No, no - I understand you. Basically you're saying that the Australian
culture is more factual than accepting "Woo" - and this also applies to
your media. But why is that? What are the differences you see between
your environment and the united states.

And do you think that the UK spreads more Woo into your media
than the US-Media does?`

[Cuddles]

So how do you explain the prospering Woo like "Creationism" - and how do you explain that this isn't any issue at all in european Christian societies? What's the difference in your opinion between the US-Creationism-Woo and the logic Darwinism present in Europe?

The most obvious explanation is that you're wrong. Woo does exist in Europe. Conspiracy theories exist in Europe. Different countries tend to have different woo, but that doesn't mean the whole thing doesn't exist. I really have trouble believing that you think there aren't believers in government conspiracies here.

"Free Speech" implies that I can state my opinion without being persecuted for my free opinion

Fixed it for you. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, free speech simply means you are free to say whatever you like, within certain limits. As a consequence, other people are free to say whatever they like about what you say. If you don't like what they say, tough. Supporting your right to say things by taking everyone else's right away is pretty much the definition of hypocrisy.

- but my experiences in public boards in the US is contrarily to this because I cannot say MF'er, for example. So my "free speech" is indeed suppressed in US-Boards in contrast to "free expression" over here.

I can only assume you haven't been on any non-US boards. Rules on civility and abuse exist on pretty much every forum in existence. Obviously the rules tend to follow local customs, and must follow local laws, so the exact rules and their strictness will vary, but the rules are still there.

[Oliver]

The most obvious explanation is that you're wrong. Woo does exist in Europe. Conspiracy theories exist in Europe. Different countries tend to have different woo, but that doesn't mean the whole thing doesn't exist. I really have trouble believing that you think there aren't believers in government conspiracies here.

Fixed it for you. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, free speech simply means you are free to say whatever you like, within certain limits. As a consequence, other people are free to say whatever they like about what you say. If you don't like what they say, tough. Supporting your right to say things by taking everyone else's right away is pretty much the definition of hypocrisy.

I can only assume you haven't been on any non-US boards. Rules on civility and abuse exist on pretty much every forum in existence. Obviously the rules tend to follow local customs, and must follow local laws, so the exact rules and their strictness will vary, but the rules are still there.


BS.

Free speech means that I'm allowed to say whatever and about whoever I want. And I fully understand that libel is limiting free speech. And so does "OMG, Fire!". Free speech is an illusion - and I have no Idea why Americans praise it nevertheless - especially because my experience over here with free speech is that I'm even more free than US-Citizens. If i feel to scream F* - than I don't get censored at all. But this is a secondary issue.

I know that Iceland-Citizens have traditional beliefs in fairy's and goblins - but even they don't tend to turn every incident into a Government-Conspiracy. So how do you explain that the US-Woo's does so?

What's the difference you see and experienced?

[Cuddles]

Free speech means that I'm allowed to say whatever and about whoever I want.

And since that isn't allowed in any country on this planet I have to wonder why you are so upset about the USA. All of Europe, at the very least, has libel, slander, copyright, trademarks and patents. These all restrict your speech. Why are you only complaining about the US when you are restricted wherever you live? In addition, since I believe you are German, you actually have far more restrictions on free speech since you are not allowed to question anything about the Nazi's or even to show symbols associated with them.

In addition, the sweary police you seem to be complaining about don't exist. You are perfectly free to shout **** in public in pretty much any country. This is normally frowned on as impolite, but neither I or any of my friends have ever even been told off, let alone cautioned by the police, for swearing in public. As I said, most web forums have rules against swearing and other incivility, but as private property they are free to enforce just about any rules they care to think up, whether they are in the US or anywhere else.

I know that Iceland-Citizens have traditional beliefs in fairy's and goblins - but even they don't tend to turn every incident into a Government-Conspiracy. So how do you explain that the US-Woo's does so?

And you don't think any other country has any woo beliefs? The Loch Ness monster, crop circles, fortune telling, psychics, Christianity, astrology, fairies, elves, goblins, Saint Nicholas, and far more than I can possibly put here. These are beliefs that exist in pretty much every country in the world, let alone Europe. In fact, the majority of woo was around before the USA even existed.

As for conspiracy, I am reliably informed that the government are covering up crop circles, the royal family and much of the government are giant shape-shifting alien lizards, perpetual motion is being supressed, the NHS is supressing homeopathy/herbalism/acupuncture/insert personal favourite quackery here to make money, drug companies are doing the same, Diana was murdered and pretty much anything you care to think about Iraq. Distrust of the government is in no way exclusively an American pursuit. Conspiracy theories the world over range from the plausible but unproven all the way up to David Icke. Why are you so obsessed about America when their behaviour is no different from anywhere else?

[chillzero]

I am not splitting out posts this time, but can I please remind you ALL that the topic here was supposed to be why people feel the need to fight the truthers.

Once again - it is NOT about why this forum has certain words censored and how this impacts freedom of speech globally.

I believe that if this thread can't stay on topic, it may require to be set to moderated.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Oliver: I think the major mistake you're making is that "All Americans Believe in Woo"

Truthers are a REALLY small percentage. They may seem to have a huge presence on the internet, but this comes about from being: unemployed because they're still in high school, or they have no social life outside of their truther theorizing, spending every waking hour trying to push their beliefs. They show a LOT of similarities to cults... Which of course happen in a lot of countries. I've also noticed that a lot of vocal truthers on the internet are Canadians. I have no explanation as to why.

And as for creationists, well, I grew up Catholic (and am still Catholic twice a year) and I never had a problem with believing in evolution and God. The biggest thing they were concerned about and railed against when I was growing up was heavy metal and abortion. I honestly don't know anyone who chooses to not believe in evolution. But then again I live in New York, and not some closed community in the middle of the swamps in the panhandle of Florida.

Either way... The world is flooded with media that comes from the U.S. Much of which is NOT flattering to Americans. But of course people in the U.S. know that there aren't giant gun battles on the streets on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis. But people outside of the U.S. see that as U.S. culture because of fictional movies and shows. Same with how Jerry Springer (which is staged by the way) gave Americans a bad name when they started showing the show in England. My wife was going to school for a semester in London, and people would chant out Jerry Jerry Jerry when they found out she was American and would ask her how Americans could be so stupid for sleeping around with their transsexual brother's gay lover's dog. They thought it was all real.

[Oliver]

Oliver: I think the major mistake you're making is that "All Americans Believe in Woo"

Truthers are a REALLY small percentage. They may seem to have a huge presence on the internet, but this comes about from being: unemployed because they're still in high school, or they have no social life outside of their truther theorizing, spending every waking hour trying to push their beliefs. They show a LOT of similarities to cults... Which of course happen in a lot of countries. I've also noticed that a lot of vocal truthers on the internet are Canadians. I have no explanation as to why.

And as for creationists, well, I grew up Catholic (and am still Catholic twice a year) and I never had a problem with believing in evolution and God. The biggest thing they were concerned about and railed against when I was growing up was heavy metal and abortion. I honestly don't know anyone who chooses to not believe in evolution. But then again I live in New York, and not some closed community in the middle of the swamps in the panhandle of Florida.

Either way... The world is flooded with media that comes from the U.S. Much of which is NOT flattering to Americans. But of course people in the U.S. know that there aren't giant gun battles on the streets on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis. But people outside of the U.S. see that as U.S. culture because of fictional movies and shows. Same with how Jerry Springer (which is staged by the way) gave Americans a bad name when they started showing the show in England. My wife was going to school for a semester in London, and people would chant out Jerry Jerry Jerry when they found out she was American and would ask her how Americans could be so stupid for sleeping around with their transsexual brother's gay lover's dog. They thought it was all real.


No, I have to disagree. I know that many Movies and TV-Series coming from the US are fictional - but the presidential debates are not fiction. So when someone asks if the presidential candidates on stage believe in "Creationism", which would be an absurd question over here anyway, then I see again that Woo has a huge place in society.

You will not find "creationistic debates", the "Gay Issue", the "Female Choice", the "God or not"-issues over here because we have another type of system. It doesn't matter if a politician is gay, divorced or religious at all - as long he or she is a wise mate with plausible, political knowledge.

And you know that a divorced/gay/non-religious presidential candidate has no chance at all - just because "Woo" is an issue in the US.

So why is that if "Woo" isn't an issue at all - according to your assumption?

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Oliver: Reagan was divorced from his first wife.

Oops, that goes against your assumption.

Giulliani is STILL ahead in the Republican polls despite the fact he's on his 3rd wife.

Barney Frank is an openly gay congressman. And Mike Gravel is running for President (He has some obvious gay tendencies, even though he won't admit he's gay... He talked about his "beautiful relationship with a Captain" while in the Army and traveling to Paris.) Of course he has no chance for other reasons. One being he's nutty.

There are atheists in elected roles across the country, including Congress.

[chillzero]

Two splits have ccurred.
Freedom of speech posts since my last warning have gone to
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=91839

and Oliver's query about the warning have gone to forum mgt.

If further posts require attention from this point on, the thread will be moderated.

[Pardalis]

I'm listening to it right now, Goury. May I ask you for your personal distinction between the US- and Canadian Society? Do you see any difference at all - especially concerning CT's?

I can't really speak about Canadian society, but as far as Quebecers are concerned, we are very much susceptible to woo, like anybody else.

Here, we have Raelians, alot of sects, a few people who believe in intra-terrestrials, quite alot of people who believe in Mayan horoscope and New Age woo-woo, homeopathy is beginning to be a problem especially because it is sold in drugstores without legislation, and there's also astrology which is always there. I saw Lyndon Larouche crackpots on the suybway. And now, more and more, 9/11 CTs appear because of the anti-American sentiment.

[hellaeon]

I had a large post but it was too vague haha.
Oliver, I agree but think a level of mental awareness plays a big part.

With 9/11 initially you could say its the environment. Lots of misfacts, half truths, wrong information on the net etc. Now though, 6 years later, with all the facts gathered, if you still want to think about controlled demolitions, No planes, fly overs, microwaves in space...your mentally ill. It borders of fundamentalist belief to deny reality to the level some of those in the movement do.

Your arguement for environment is strong, considering how Avery thinks he is such a leader, wanting to have his starlet, his red carpet. In fact overthrowing the government with the biggest conspiracy ever is secondary to living of the fame and seeing himself as a modern Nelson Mandela and the bright lights of hollywood. Whats the bet if offered a deal to help make a movie for hollywood only if he finally gave up on all the bs he says about 9/11, he would jump in an instant.

Mental illness comes in because instead of admitting errors, he will say its done on purpose. Instead of feeling empathy, he will laugh at someones misery. Instead of being honest about 9/11 he prefers to twist and distort reality so it fits his little hollywood dreams. Does he actually believe it? Mentally ill - yes, complete <rule 8> - no.

Ever seen 'Natural Born Killers?' I think of Avery and Co like those guys on the steps of the courthouse saying 'If I was a serial killer, I would want to be like Micky and Mallory' or something to that effect. Thats actually a good movie in favour of your arguement I think.

With that in mind I fight these buffoons because they have no desire for the 'truth' (most overused word ever), its about attention seeking and anarchy. They want to be a character from their favourite movies (environment like you say), but they cant seperate the fantasy of a movie from reality (mentally inadequate) and willingly embrace the distinction. I fight because that can influence people I know and I hate it.

Thats only my opinion. if my past seems confusing or vague, its only because I think the environment reason is a (large) part of the problem but not entirely. Eg, why does Jay Leno hate the CT nuts even though he has lots of fame?