satanic sacrafice etc. - does it even exist

[pounce]

wondered which forum this might belong in. current events, general skepticism, conspiracy theories?

read a news clip today about someone being convicted of satanic sacrifice.

my main point is simply this, i think that pretty much everything i've read about satanism is a bunch of bollocks aimed at scaring folks into being christian. groups like the church of satan have small followings and encourage the pursuit of any physical indulgences. so besides some drug taking and orgies, and the prescription of an eye for an eye, they don't seem to be going around killing folks. or worshipping anything per se. i am sure there are a number of darker small religious variations of this. none that i had initially found seemed to be overly wrapped up in any belief of the devil as the xtian church presents him.

moreso, some xtian groups in the past have claimed that tremendous amounts of folks were kidnapped and killed by satanic cults. i've seen claims that this happens in quantities that society would truly notice. but i don't think it's happening.

i suspect that the occasional nutcase does kill someone for "satan", and this person was most likely a xtian at some point who is rebelling in some unhealthy way. but i simply do not believe there is any organized network of people advocating any sort of sacrifice to satan. i believe this idea of "satanic sacrifice" is in effect the boogeyman. i'm just surprised that i keep hearing about it as recently as today. i think it only works if you are a xtian and are scared by such things and can be led to believe that there is some portion of society seriously worshipping the devil. other than the satanists i can think of who are nothing more than drug taking orgy loving indulgent folks who don't actually worship the devil, i can't even think of anyone i've come across ever who actually is a devil worshipper. hasn't this been dismissed by now? is "satanic sacrifice" largely a fundamental xtian propogated conspiracy theory of sorts?

any thoughts on this are welcome.

[kellyb]

Here's a pretty good article:
http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/showquestion.asp?faq=6&fldAuto=45

[pounce]

yup, i'd read an article like that years ago. it seems that there just isn't any evidence for that sort of stuff. i can't figure out why the media keeps reporting about satanic killings. what is the benefit to making people afraid of things that don't exist?

[kerikiwi]

Convicted of satanic sacrifice, or convicted of murder?
Where was this crime committed?

[Miss Anthrope]

Of course Wikipedia is a jumping point as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

[pounce]

sorry, here is the article that got me started on all this...

http://www.local10.com/news/13909541/detail.html

posted on cnn. former satanist convicted of ritual sacrifice. yes, he is a murderer. what he did is indefensable. but pushing the satanic scare made me think of the weird other claims of lots of satanic cults killing lots of people, and this seemed untrue and kind of sensationalist.

[Slimething]

I had a relative one time who was "reborn". She was an ardent admirer of the East Coast frauds (Falwell and Baker) and anything that wasn't approved by those two was "satanic". It's very similar to the McCarthy's red scares and, as you put it, the boogeyman. It's no small secret that fear is an excellent method for controling people.

The more rational view would be to regard people who kill for any imaginary friend to be deranged and incapable of making an informed decision.

[kellyb]

i can't figure out why the media keeps reporting about satanic killings. what is the benefit to making people afraid of things that don't exist?

Ratings.

[kerikiwi]

former satanist convicted of ritual sacrifice.
No, not convicted of satanic sacrifice. There is no such crime. The conviction was on a charge of murder.
Where have you seen claims of lots of satanic cults killing lots of people?

I would suggest that not only is it a myth that such killings are more than vanishingly rare, but also a myth that there is any pushing of a satanic scare.

[pounce]

No, not convicted of satanic sacrifice. There is no such crime. The conviction was on a charge of murder.
Where have you seen claims of lots of satanic cults killing lots of people?

I would suggest that not only is it a myth that such killings are more than vanishingly rare, but also a myth that there is any pushing of a satanic scare.


dude, i was quoting from the original news article to make my point. i understand the charge was murder. it goes to my original point that the media is presenting "satanic ritual murder" (again from the article) instead of just murder.

i will have to disagree that there isn't anyone continuing to push the idea that there is a satanic scare, and i'll use a news clip on cnn yesterday as my first evidence that at the very least the sensationalist journalists report on such things. i also think we will all find many fundamentalists continue to put out that message. i'd stopped believing in the devil so long ago that i've lost track of who might be actually scaring folks about satan and satanic cults other than when those things are mentioned in the major news outlets.

i think pedophiles is the current "big scare", but no matter how "debunked" i think satanic cults are they still come up. perhaps partially because of the role that religion has been taking in the states recently i suspect i'll continue to hear about god and satan more than i need to (as an atheist and skeptic)

[Alice Shortcake]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the sensationalist press were attempting to revive the Satanic Panic of the 80s/early 90s. This bizarre mass hysteria was closely linked with the recovered memory movement, and recently there has been an attempt to resurrect what one might have hoped was an utterly discredited pseudo-science.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

It's interesting that the headline in the news article calls him a "former satanist". I can't figure out why. The body of the article seems to say he is (still) a self-proclaimed Satanist.

Is the newspaper afraid of offending Satanists? :confused:

[Checkmite]

The only case of "organized" occultic human sacrifice in modern times that I'm aware of is Constanzo's cult in Matamoros in the 80's.

[kerikiwi]

I fail to see how the report is 'pushing a satanic scare'. It is a report on one case. Do you think it should not have been reported?
The claim of satanism was put forward by the prosecution and denied by the defence.It should have been the other way around: in order to establish a defence of insanity, the defence should have been 'pushing' it and the prosecution refuting it.

As for his being a 'former satanist' perhaps he has now got (the right sort of) religion. It seems to happen fairly often when people are convicted, but usually not before. After all, you might just be acquitted without godzelp.

[RSLancastr]

what is the benefit to making people afraid of things that don't exist?

Sounds like a question for the Religion forum.

[Big Les]

It's perhaps unfortunate that Scientology attracts so much in the way of "Satanism in disguise" criticism. Sure Hubbard ran in the same circles as Crowley, and lifted some ideas for his own little power-trip money-making scheme, but Scientology has so much bad going for it without looking for the old satanism chestnut, I just think it's un-necessary.

[DRBUZZ0]

I do not know much speffic, but I am certain there are occasional killings of someone or another in the name of satan. As for in a ritual with multiple people? It probably happens with a couple of people once in a while.

There are some really really messed up people in the world and some serial killers are likely to be warped enough to think satan is talking to them.

I work at an animal shelter a lot as a volunteer and there is some really tight looking out, especially around Halloween. It's the semi-official policy that no black cats are to be adopted out around Halloween and that everyone is extra cautious about people. If a couple of rather quiet late-teens dressed entirely in black and and with that goth-white powdered makeup look and a pentagram sewn into their clothes...

They probably would not get approved for any animal adoption.

It's something that's looked out for which is why everyone is interviewed a lot and is watched with how they treat the animals they look at.

Stuff has happened before. Not necessarily where I am, but it happens. Some people are just really really sick.

[Bikewer]

Some years ago, during the height of this nonsense, the Satanic Ritual Abuse fans were claiming that many thousands of individuals were being ritually murdered, and that young women were being impregnated so that their newborn infants could be sacrificed.
I was subjected to a training film produced by an ex-police officer who'd gone into business hawking such information. Our chief at the time fell for it, and bought some videotapes.
Nearly everything this dolt listed as signs of possible involvement with Satanic Cults were normal teenage behavior....
Even the FBI chimed in with an extensive report indicating no evidence of "Satanic" activity.

[nails3jesus0]

I heard a bunch of the satanic ritual abuse accusers are suing hypnotists who helped them 'recover' memories of abuse(i read that quite awhile ago, sorry no source). I have to wonder if anything really did happen though, it would be much harder to figure out if any of the claims of abuse were credible during the time that it was popular to claim sra because there were just so many of them. its pretty clear though that the vast majority of cases were completely false though. its a lot of hype, and some preachers and other christian leaders never quite got over it.

[DRBUZZ0]

Yeah, the whole hyped thing about it being some sort of epidemic a few years back was entirely bull. No doubt there are a few groups of weirdos here and there who worship satan and sacraftice the occasional cat or squirle.

And there are probably a few cases of killers who are driven by something relating to a belief they are commanded by satan or something.

But the parts about getting women pregnant for the newborns to be sacraficed? Puh-lease! This was actually one of the defenses of the scott peterson trial. That his wife may have been kidnapped by a satanic group.

[Scott Haley]

There's a certain kind of American Protestant that believes strongly that there are powerful groups of killer Satanists with magical powers. If someone expresses skepticism about it, they get loud and indignant. I think that it feels good to think of one's self as a hero opposed to people who are completely vile and depraved.

--Scott

[Carnivore]

It's totally anecdotal but this thread reminds me of a bizarre story told to me several years ago by a coworker. She was from Namibia and basically she claimed there was a Satanism flap in that country while she was in high school (from her age I assume somewhere around the late 90s.)

She alleged that a public meeting was held in her high school gym, at which a senior South African police detective claimed that hundreds of satanists were practising animal sacrifice in a nearby quarry. He further claimed that the satanists were actively recruiting young people to their cause. From my friend's account this was presented in a very credulous manner, with much fire and brimstone and lock-up-your-teenagers. Malevolent supernatural powers were presumed a priori.

At the time she told me this I was interested enough to look for references to the incident on the web but come up with nothing in the online Namibian and South African press. Likewise I could find no references online to the police officer concerned (whose name I can't now remember).

Perhaps my google-fu was weak or perhaps my friend was just spinning a yarn, but it has always stuck in my mind as odd sort of story to tell in an apparently serious manner. At the least it seems to show the sort of cultural background exists in which this type of story could be viewed as plausible. (Even if she was making the story up my friend seemed to consider it unremarkable and was surprised when her account was questioned.)

In subsequent years I have related the story to several South Africans who accepted it at face value, without being able to confirm any of the specifics.

It just made me wonder how widespread belief in satanic cults is, and how it is perpetuated.

[pounce]

I fail to see how the report is 'pushing a satanic scare'. It is a report on one case. Do you think it should not have been reported?
The claim of satanism was put forward by the prosecution and denied by the defence.It should have been the other way around: in order to establish a defence of insanity, the defence should have been 'pushing' it and the prosecution refuting it.

As for his being a 'former satanist' perhaps he has now got (the right sort of) religion. It seems to happen fairly often when people are convicted, but usually not before. After all, you might just be acquitted without godzelp.

i'm not quite sure why you are harping on me over this stuff. maybe where you live there wasn't so much of a wave of reports about satanic sacrifices some years back. it's been a while since i'd heard much about such things, but seeing this report again reminded me of the others, which took the same form.

yes, they found a person who was a killer and apparently unstable. i'm not sure where satanism comes in to play, the defense denies it, nonetheless "satanic cult ritual killing" is the headline. what the headline is my point in this case .

the other posters here clearly recall the series of reports of satanic cults that were all the rage some time back. it's just curious to see this resurface. and the article i cited doesn't impress me as good journalism.

it's just that we all agree that crazy people are out there and might commit these unrelated murders, and possibly do so in the name of satan. but that isn't the thing that's being reported about. the reporting suggests a widespread and organized effort from satanic groups to kill people for rituals including all this claptrap about kidnapping pregnant women. it's crazy. there is no way there is a whole network of satanic groups doing all these sacrifices in an organized way. not even in a disorganized way.

my point is that it's totally fabricated, and there is no evidence that this is happening. it reminds me of the razor blade in the halloween candy story. that has never happened. ever. it's a weird fear to put into kids. in this case i have to wonder where this idea came from, and who benefits from keeping people scared of satanic cults. calling the incident a murder by a crazy person is more accurate, and gives the impression it's a one time thing that is over now that the guy is caught. calling it a ritual sacrafice from a satanic cult might suggest that there are more crazed murderers out there hoping to prey on the innocent public and creates an unecessary fear.

[kellyb]

It's totally anecdotal but this thread reminds me of a bizarre story told to me several years ago by a coworker. She was from Namibia and basically she claimed there was a Satanism flap in that country while she was in high school (from her age I assume somewhere around the late 90s.)

She alleged that a public meeting was held in her high school gym, at which a senior South African police detective claimed that hundreds of satanists were practising animal sacrifice in a nearby quarry. He further claimed that the satanists were actively recruiting young people to their cause. From my friend's account this was presented in a very credulous manner, with much fire and brimstone and lock-up-your-teenagers. Malevolent supernatural powers were presumed a priori.

At the time she told me this I was interested enough to look for references to the incident on the web but come up with nothing in the online Namibian and South African press. Likewise I could find no references online to the police officer concerned (whose name I can't now remember).

Perhaps my google-fu was weak or perhaps my friend was just spinning a yarn, but it has always stuck in my mind as odd sort of story to tell in an apparently serious manner. At the least it seems to show the sort of cultural background exists in which this type of story could be viewed as plausible. (Even if she was making the story up my friend seemed to consider it unremarkable and was surprised when her account was questioned.)

In subsequent years I have related the story to several South Africans who accepted it at face value, without being able to confirm any of the specifics.

It just made me wonder how widespread belief in satanic cults is, and how it is perpetuated.

Another anecdote...but at my private Christian school I attended here in the US, we were taught similar things. People would give talks in chapel, who were supposed advisors to the FBI. It sort of gave the impression that they were "with the FBI".
If it was a Christian school, I can believe it. I'm also not sure about how definitive the separation of church and state might be in South Africa, too.
She might have gotten mixed up on who the speaker actually was, though.
I guess it might or might not have been an actual police detective.
Mass hysteria is a weird, weird thing.

[steve s]

In his book Why People Believe Wierd Things, Shermer devotes a chapter (Chapter 7) to the satanic abuse scare. He likens it to the Salem witch trials.

Steve S.

[Carnivore]

Another anecdote...but at my private Christian school I attended here in the US, we were taught similar things. People would give talks in chapel, who were supposed advisors to the FBI. It sort of gave the impression that they were "with the FBI".
If it was a Christian school, I can believe it. I'm also not sure about how definitive the separation of church and state might be in South Africa, too.
She might have gotten mixed up on who the speaker actually was, though.
I guess it might or might not have been an actual police detective.
Mass hysteria is a weird, weird thing.

Wow, that is interesting. In my friend's case I have no idea if it was a Christian school she attended but I do remember that she gave a full name and rank for the cop concerned, also that he was from South Africa speaking in Namibia (Walvis Bay). I could not confirm any of this.

She may have been telling the truth as she knew it, she may have been misremembering, exaggerating or outright lying. In any event, your experience is interesting to me. Do you happen to know if the speakers at your school were paid for their talks or if they were a "public service"? Were they local or did they have to travel to give these talks?

ETA I just did another quick google search for Satanism in Namibia and found this (http://www.namibian.com.na/2001/April/news/01E14E0E9C.html) from 2001, and this (http://www.namibian.com.na/2004/September/national/0467AA7906.html) from 2004. I also discovered that the South African Police Service actually had an Occult Related Crimes Unit between 1992 and 1997 that was set up specifically to fight Satanism in SA. It was headed by Superintendant Korbus Jonker, whose name rings a strong bell with me. I think he is the person my friend referred to in her story. It looks as though there is widespread belief in Satanism in both countries.

[kellyb]

Do you happen to know if the speakers at your school were paid for their talks or if they were a "public service"? Were they local or did they have to travel to give these talks?
I have no idea if they were paid or not, but I got the impression that they traveled.
I think there was a sort of circuit of folks who made their way around the nation giving talks at fundy schools. It was sort of an "Art Bell" sideshow of Evangelical Fundamentalist issues in chapel...the folks who said they were aborted as babies, and survived, rescued from dumpsters by pastors and adopted by them....apostate marketing executives who put subliminal sex messages in alcohol ads before being Born Again...The FBI guys who had the inside scoop on the underground Satanic network, of course...

Good times, good times...

Sorry for the derail, OP...

ETA:
Here's some more of Satanism hysteria in Namibia. Looks like it's one group of chrisians saying some others are 'satanists'.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/universal/universal53.html
http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2005/12/14.html

[kerikiwi]

i'm not quite sure why you are harping on me over this stuff. maybe where you live there wasn't so much of a wave of reports about satanic sacrifices some years back.
...
the reporting suggests a widespread and organized effort from satanic groups to kill people for rituals including all this claptrap about kidnapping pregnant women.



I am surprised that you interpret my comments as 'harping'. If it is harping, it seems to be mutual!
You are right: down here we have never had any major wave of reports of satanic abuse.
I still don't see how the case you cite can be seen as suggesting a widespread and organised effort from satanic groups. I could find no such implication in the report.
But what do you think of the idea that it is the prosecution that should be denying a satanic connection, and the defence that should be pushing it?

[Carnivore]

I have no idea if they were paid or not, but I got the impression that they traveled.
I think there was a sort of circuit of folks who made their way around the nation giving talks at fundy schools. It was sort of an "Art Bell" sideshow of Evangelical Fundamentalist issues in chapel...the folks who said they were aborted as babies, and survived, rescued from dumpsters by pastors and adopted by them....apostate marketing executives who put subliminal sex messages in alcohol ads before being Born Again...The FBI guys who had the inside scoop on the underground Satanic network, of course...



Thank you. it's a bit of an eye opener for me to realize there are semi professional or even state funded Satan-is-among-us types reinforcing this belief.

[kellyb]

Thank you. it's a bit of an eye opener for me to realize there are semi professional or even state funded Satan-is-among-us types reinforcing this belief.

I *think* that whole thing has gone out of style in the US. But I don't really know for sure.
It might be alive and well in South Africa, though?

[Checkmite]

Nope. It crops up, now and then.

A couple of years back up here near Cleveland, people started finding dead deer in fields and woods, marked with orange spray paint. The news mentioned that some folks thought there was satanic goings-on, but eventually it turned out that the State DNR was marking all the deer they found for removal by sanitary crews.

[Drudgewire]

In his book Why People Believe Wierd Things, Shermer devotes a chapter (Chapter 7) to the satanic abuse scare. He likens it to the Salem witch trials.

Steve S.
Great book. Reading it now.

And yeah, there aren't roving groups of Satanists running around stealing children for sacrifices, but that's not to say there aren't some nutcases who commit murder because they're trying to please the dark lord. The Ricky Casso case springs to mind.

[kellyb]

..Sort of like the "Nerds Gone Wild" kids who thought they were vampires and murdered one of the girl's parents.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16835/moving-past-vampire-cult

[Alice Shortcake]

Anyone interested in this topic might find these books interesting:
"In Pursuit of Satan" by Robert D Hicks
Witch-children" by Hans Sebald
...both published by Prometheus Books

The website of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation also has tons of info about the devastation wrought by the Satanic panic:
www.fmsfonline.org/

[Slimething]

Nope. It crops up, now and then.

A couple of years back up here near Cleveland, people started finding dead deer in fields and woods, marked with orange spray paint. The news mentioned that some folks thought there was satanic goings-on, but eventually it turned out that the State DNR was marking all the deer they found for removal by sanitary crews.

I've gotta say, Joshua, that I'm not surprised that people though something strange was going on. Spray-painting a mark on dead deer for removal has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of. It has inspired a Slimey One-Act Play.

A Deer for Adonis by Slimey

Very early morning, the Civil Services Director at the County Sanitation HQ briefs his Crew Leaders about picking up dead deer at local parks. One Crew Leader, a burly, handsome, strapping felow who could be mistaken for a very virile chemist in Arizona, asks for further information.

Crew Leader: Boss, we gotta pick up every dead deer with an orange mark?

Super: Yup, that's right. You guys haul in every deer that has an orange mark on it.

Crew Leader: So what if we find a dead deer with no orange on it?

Super: Leave it there.

Crew Leader: But it will start stinkin', won't it? Someone will call it in and we'll jes have ta go back and get it later.

Super: Yeah. Da paperwerk sez deer with orange. See? It's right here! (Boss shows worker the form that says to pick up dead deer with orange paint.)

Later, on the Crew Leader's truck, the driver asks if there are any "specials" (anything outside the ordinary) that day:

Driver: Yo, Boss, where to first?

Crew Leader: Yah, we gotta stop at the hardware store for some orange paint.

Driver: What fer?

Crew Leader: Jes in case ya hit another deer in the park.

The curtain closes on the sanitation crew during a close-up on the strangely virile and handsome Crew Leader who could have been mistaken for a chemist in Arizona.


So, what have we learned? Right. Dead deer aren't really dead until someone spray-paints them! :confused:

[The Atheist]

You are right: down here we have never had any major wave of reports of satanic abuse.

Certainly hasn't been widespread, but there definitely have been cases classed as "Satanic abuse", or at least Satanic-related. There was the case in Masterton (aren't they always?) where a couple or family was killed by some raving loonies who were then committed as insane. Another was the case of the Korean minister who killed someone during an "exorcism".

They don't perhaps qualify as "ritual killing", although the Masterton one had that taint.

I'd be pretty confident the rare cases of Satanic-looking crime is merely the work of the insane.

[Carnivore]

Certainly hasn't been widespread, but there definitely have been cases classed as "Satanic abuse", or at least Satanic-related. There was the case in Masterton (aren't they always?) where a couple or family was killed by some raving loonies who were then committed as insane. Another was the case of the Korean minister who killed someone during an "exorcism".

They don't perhaps qualify as "ritual killing", although the Masterton one had that taint.

I'd be pretty confident the rare cases of Satanic-looking crime is merely the work of the insane.

Among others, it could be argued that the Civic Creche (Peter Ellis) case was part of the late 80s/early 90s Satanic hysteria. Some of the children involved, after extensive coaching, made Satanic style claims about things that had happened at the Creche.These claims included child and animal sacrifice, children being hung in cages from the ceiling, children being forced into ovens, adults dancing naked in circles, adults forcing children to fight at knifepoint and ritual abuse in a cemetery and a Masonic lodge.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

It always struck me as odd that anyone took these ritual abuse claims seriously. Just going from memory here, but I seem to recall children telling of the sacrifice of elephants and giraffes, as well as being defacated upon by a hippopotamus. In some cases, like Martinsville, everyone in town was accused of molestation. Why wasn't anyone willing to say that these accusations were ridiculous at the time?

[Miss Whiplash]

..Sort of like the "Nerds Gone Wild" kids who thought they were vampires and murdered one of the girl's parents.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16835/moving-past-vampire-cult

It was less "nerds gone wild" and more "white trash on crank playing the Masquerade."

[Langis]

Ah, nothing more amusing and disgusting than seeing humanity's need to justify and glorify the urge to kill.

I've no doubt that there are some deranged people who engage in these activities. Which is sad.

[pounce]

You are right: down here we have never had any major wave of reports of satanic abuse.
I still don't see how the case you cite can be seen as suggesting a widespread and organised effort from satanic groups. I could find no such implication in the report.
But what do you think of the idea that it is the prosecution that should be denying a satanic connection, and the defence that should be pushing it?

you are misunderstanding me, so i'll make one more effort to clarify myself here and then move on.

satanic cult sacrifice is a one of the classic scares. it is a popular myth that pops in and out of the media. it's been a while since it was in full form, but this is exactly the kind of report you would get that would fuel the fire. and then, once a report of two like this appear, similar reports start showing up. so you end up with a short wave of reports, each bit of media hysteria feeding the other reports.

in some cases, there is some single tragic murder. in other cases, it stuff like dead animals or other things misrepresented as being evidence of satanic ritual abuse.

my contention is that there is no such thing, and that these scares tell us more about the media and public then they tell us about satanic sacrifice. in the particular case that i cited, i think it's weird that the paper is hyping up a satanic connection when the guy denies it. i doubt any evidence would support the idea that the murder which was committed had anything to do with satanic ritual murder. what struck me as how readily the media chose to report it in that way. it seems to be a distortion of reality for the sake of hype. that lust for higher ratings and selling more papers must share a lot of the blame for satanic ritual killings getting so much attention.

and i agree, i thought satanic ritual killings as some sort of organized threat to society was disproven a long long time ago, so i think it's odd to see those things in the paper again. the single report i cited wasn't about widespread satanic abuse, but by not calling it a murder and instead calling it a ritual killing from a satanist they are inferring that there is still a threat out there to society. THAT is the difference as far as i am concerned.

[godless dave]

It always struck me as odd that anyone took these ritual abuse claims seriously. Just going from memory here, but I seem to recall children telling of the sacrifice of elephants and giraffes, as well as being defacated upon by a hippopotamus. In some cases, like Martinsville, everyone in town was accused of molestation. Why wasn't anyone willing to say that these accusations were ridiculous at the time?

Because the accusations involved children as victims.

You do care about children, don't you?





;)

[JoeTheJuggler]

Because the accusations involved children as victims.

You do care about children, don't you?

;)

:) Sounds like Mrs. Lovejoy on The Simpsons.