Why don't animals pray?

[H3LL]

Inspired by a joke I just read it had never occured to me to ask the question.

Billions of creatures on Earth and to believers they are supposed to be 'created' by god.

Why do none of them pray except humans?

You are allowed to quote scripture and pretend it's evidence.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/318046c830efa6812.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7818)

:D

.

[Malachi151]

Because they are too smart....

[Mangafranga]

They can't spell.

[UltraTexan]

Do you guys think the early humans "prayed" or even thought about things other than finding food and shelter? Or do you think they thought the sun was a god, or worshipped animals maybe? :confused:

[Zep]

It really should have been fundies all the way down, not turtles.

[Big Les]

Do you guys think the early humans "prayed" or even thought about things other than finding food and shelter? Or do you think they thought the sun was a god, or worshipped animals maybe? :confused:

Anything unusual in terms of cave art, portable art, grave goods etc is interpreted as "ritual" by archaeologists and religious activity is often inferred, going way back to the earliest early modern humans. I think such behaviour would have emerged as soon as we were capable of recognising patterns, assuming that things happen for a reason, and trying to work out what that might be. Simultaneously the very beginning of scientific thought and of religious confusion.

[UltraTexan]

Anything unusual in terms of cave art, portable art, grave goods etc is interpreted as "ritual" by archaeologists and religious activity is often inferred, going way back to the earliest early modern humans. I think such behaviour would have emerged as soon as we were capable of recognising patterns, assuming that things happen for a reason, and trying to work out what that might be. Simultaneously the very beginning of scientific thought and of religious confusion.

Interesting. That is what I was thinking. It seems like when we developed thought it set us back in a way.

[Malachi151]

Do you guys think the early humans "prayed" or even thought about things other than finding food and shelter? Or do you think they thought the sun was a god, or worshipped animals maybe? :confused:

No, I don't think that they prayed or worshiped gods at all.

Indeed the evidence shows that in primitive tribal cultures there is nothing like religion, there is basically just vague superstitions and in many cases not even any concept of gods.

Even sun worship was probably a pretty late development, emerging around 4,000 years ago in the most advanced civilizations.

The most primitive groups seem not to have had any concept of gods at all. Several tribes like this existed as late as the 1800s, and were documented by several persons at that time, including missionaries and even Charles Darwin. At most they simply had "superstitions" which basically just amounted to incorrect concepts of cause and effect, basically associating effects with things that didn't actually cause them. For example, associating cannibalism with causing rain, etc. This is because when they did something that stuck out in their head, and something else that was actually unrelated coincided with it, this caused them to establish a mental link between the two things, thinking that one caused the other.

Then we have animism, which is basically the worship of animals and/or natural forces, such as the wind, the ocean, the sun, etc., but not really worshiping these as "gods" in the organized religion sense, rather just as other sentient beings, or perhaps even ancestors.

Then I think the other thing that most people overlook was the worship of human leaders, and this I where I think modern organized religions stem from.

As larger social groups formed, and the first true states emerged, the leaders were worshiped. This, I think, is where the "god" concept came from. We see much evidence of this in Sumerian, Babylonian, and Egyptian religion.

I think that the first "gods" were just powerful rulers in the areas where farming first started and the first cities were built. The first worshipers were the naked and ignorant people who were the slaves of these early ruling groups.

I think we see traces of this in Genesis where it talks about people gaining knowing and "becoming like us". I think this is also why it talks about being naked and then becoming ashamed and gaining clothing. Genesis is based on earlier Sumerian legends that discuss the same thing, and its just a hold over from these earlier stories, which reflect what happened as the first civilizations emerged.

This is why there the link between "church and state" developed in organized religion, because religion is a product of the state, it was the means of worship of the state leader or leaders. This has impacted all religion that has descended from those early roots.

The worship of human leaders evolving into the worship of the persona of human leaders in a form that became separated from any specific individual. The state evolved idealized heavenly leaders, who represented the leadership ideals of the subjects and was used to rule over the subjects through the power of earthly leaders.

From this point, though, religion evolved more and became infused with philosophy in Western culture around the 4th and 5th century BCE. This also took place in India and the East around the same time (which is also around when Buddhism emerged).

It was at this stage that the "modern" concept of god developed, the concept of an all powerful, all knowing, benevolent, first causal agent, who designed and controlled the world, etc.

It is interesting to note that for most cultures and most of human history most religion and "supernatural" belief has not viewed the gods or spirits as "good".

In most cultures the "supernatural" beings were malevolent or simply similar to humans. Really, even ancient Judaism didn't view God as a purely "good" being, for them "Yahweh" was the creator of good and evil, a force of destruction and blessing, who just just as quickly kill babies our of rage as help poor people.

The idea of a "purely good" god is a quite late one, developing first perhaps among the Greeks around the 3rd century among the Stoics and Platonics, and then becoming a part of Christianity.

You don't find the idea of purely good gods or good supernatural forces in primitive cultures, because of course for most of these cultures they are constantly being tormented by the elements and hit with diseases and natural disasters and famines, etc. so the forces of the universe certainly seemed to have been aligned against them, not for them.

But to get back to the main issue, "why don't animals pray", I think that this has to do with what causes superstition in humans, which is really the massive degree to which our brains try to form cause and effect patterns.

What makes us "intelligent" is the large number of relationships that our brains can form. Our brains pick our associations between objects and events. That is the root of everything, from language to music to art to the ability to learn and develop technology.

We make associations.

Unfortunately, the side effect of this is that we make many associations that "are not real".

For example, you see a black cat and then later that day something bad happens to you. Your brain associated black cats with bad things happening. Our brains are trying to pick out causes and effects, but our brains have no concrete way to do this, they simply form patterns. Sometimes the associations our brains make are correct, which then increases our ability to predict the future and understand how things work, and something the association are wrong, in which case what we commonly call a "superstition" is formed, which is really nothing more than a wrong association between two events.

Since other animals don't form the same types of associations as humans do, and dont' form nearly as many they are also don't develop as many wrong associations.

Humans form more abstract associations than other animals. That's what enables us to have language, and artwork, etc. but that same exact mental ability also creates havoc by "seeing patterns" that's aren't real.

[JoeTheJuggler]

What about the evidence of flowers used in neanderthal burials? (Granted, that's several removes from being evidence of prayer.)

[Pardalis]

My budgies often stare into space for minutes on end. I guess that's about the same as praying.

[joobz]

how do we know animals don't pray?

[slingblade]

They don't vote, and everyone knows if you don't vote, you can't pray.

[H3LL]

how do we know animals don't pray?

Worms don't have knees.

;)

.

[Miss Anthrope]

I heard this "answer" in church. It's because animals are always aware of god's presence, and give praise in their hearts constantly.

Uh huh.

You know, our whole eco-system is built on life devouring life.

I doubt the fly caught in the spider web is praising god any more than the gazelle being ripped to shreds by the lion is.

[plumjam]

'Why don't animals pray?'

well, you're just assuming they don't. I don't find it totally out of the question that something like a whale or dolphin might pray.. and how would we ever be able to confirm or deny it?

If you were an alien intelligence that had a completely different form of behaviour, understanding and communication from those of humans, you might come to Earth and be unable to glean any evidence either for or against the hypothesis that humans pray.

[Safe-Keeper]

well, you're just assuming they don't.Of course. And we do because we've never observed animals pray. The closest thing is wolves howling at the moon, or animals staring into the distance at nothing in particular.

[Dogdoctor]

What evidence do you have that they don't pray? :) Seriously speaking cats seem to be ritualistic in their behavior. Could it be some kind of religious ceremony they are doing? (ok so not so serious)

[RandFan]

well, you're just assuming they don't. I don't find it totally out of the question that something like a whale or dolphin might pray.. and how would we ever be able to confirm or deny it?Exactly, and why would we assume that oxygen or iron doesn't pray?...

Actually, if you know anything about the neuroscience of both human and non-human animals you would know that there is actually very good reason to make that assumption.

However, don't let me tinkle on your parade. I'm going outside to look for fairies in my garden, join me? Oh, and for you haters, please don't assume there are none out there.

[blobru]

In the beginning, GOD created the Earth. And man, and all the animals thereon, and therein, didst pray.
But then man, thinking himself quite the ticket, thought he didst not have to pray no more, all except for Noah that is, who was quite the suck.
And GOD was exceedingly wroth. And his wrothness moved like a shadow on the face of the heavens and the oceans, and summoned the animals together.
"GOD dude, like why art thou so wroth?" inquired the camel, who was union rep for the animals that crawleth on the land.
"Why do you think, Einstein?" thundered GOD.
"Who's Einstein?" asked the porpoise, spokesanimal for them than swimmeth in the sea.
"Some Hebe who's going to zip sunshine, didn't you get the email?" snapped camel.
"Hey bite me, you antisemitic ungulate!"
"Blow it out your hole, you cetacean nincompoop!"
"Shut yer gobs both of youse; I'm getting wroth, really WROTH..." GOD fumed.
"Sorry GOD", whimpered camel and porpoise in unison.
Then after an awkward silence: "So what's goin' down, G-man?" burbled porpoise.
"Man, that's what. I'm taking him down, way down, everyone except the Noahsons, cause they're such a bunch of sucks," spake GOD lovingly of the one clan to escape HIS murderous wroth.
"You're going to kill everyone else, millions of people, even babies who've just sucked their first teat, seen their first dawn, breathed their first dew... holy elephant turd, you ain't kiddin' about the 'wroth' thing are you big fella!?" squalled camel.
"Of course he ain't kidding, you humpback galoot -- quit pushing his buttons ferchrissakes!" squeaked porpoise, sotto voce so's not to blow GOD's fusebox.
"Who the hell is 'chrissakes'?" carped camel.
"Now who didn't read the email?" peeped porpoise.
GOD shoke off his dotage: "So what I want from you two wastes of space is ideas -- how should I, the all-loving cosmic creator, benefactor of mankind, just about the sweetest nicest god that ever was, murder millions, eh?"
Camel thought fast: What would knock off every one else and not him? Of course: Drainage! Drain away all the water; camels can go longest without; camels rule the world!!! Genius. Not to mention it would fix that fish-wit's wagon good.
Unfortunately, just as camel was about to announce his suggestion, a bit of dandelion fluff darted up his nose.
"D -- rain!" he sneezed. "D -- aaa-chooo!! -- rain!"
"What'd he say?" said GOD.
"De rain, de rain, lots and lots of de rain!" piped porpoise, smiling from eye to eye. "Seconded."
"That's quorum. Rain it is then. 40 days and 40 nights coming up. Y' know, I'm starting to feel less wroth already, at the prospect of drowning every person on my green earth save a handful of sucks. There's just something about genocide, I don't know what it is, just does a god good. For I am a just and loving god, am I not?"
"You're a peach, GOD!" snorkeled porpoise, still agrin at the turn of events. "A regular cling peach dipped in caviar."
"Thanksss, such a nice fishy. Catch ya later, porp and cam!"
Camel had at last recovered from his sneezing fit.
"*****!" said camel.
And that is why, to this day, no land animals pray; and none get along with camels at all, on account of bearing him a grudge for being such a selfish and stupid prick.
"Fish" on the other hand, porpoises particularly, couldn't be more devout, and frequently gather together in sundry schools to plash theology, bubble catechisms, sing ultrasonic psalms and play WWJFD ('F' for fish: you think it was just coincidence that was one of the first Xtian symbols?)? :)

[joobz]

Actually, if you know anything about the neuroscience of both human and non-human animals you would know that there is actually very good reason to make that assumption.
actually, I do not follow. What do you think the neurological requirements are for praying?

[RandFan]

actually, I do not follow. What do you think the neurological requirements are for praying?I tried to make that apparent with my iron and oxygen example. If one assumes that rocks are busy praying then we of course can assume that animals are praying. Why should we assume that rocks are praying? Why not?

What is the neurological requirement for praying? Please see V.S. Ramachandran's A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness (http://www.amazon.com/Brief-Tour-Human-Consciousness-Impostor/dp/0131486861).

Self awareness.
Theory of mind (the ability to infer another person's mental state.)
Why would something pray when it doesn't even know it exists on a conscious level?
Why would something pray when it doesn't even consciously know that another something (god) is conscious?Simple answer to both questions. It wouldn't. To assume they would is absurd and meaninless. I could say my farts pray but what exactly does that mean?

Neuroscience, contrary to popular belief (sadly), isn't smoke and mirrors. The same logic that gave us the ability to infer the structure of both the Atom and DNA is also capable of figuring out what is and is not capable of praying.

Of course, if you want to believe that Atoms are made of marshmallows and DNA is made of sunshine I can't really prove to you that they are not. You still have to accept emperically based premises. It's the old leading a horse to water problem.

BTW, my appologies if I'm comming off as rude when you were just asking me a simple question.

[plumjam]

Exactly, and why would we assume that oxygen or iron doesn't pray?...

Actually, if you know anything about the neuroscience of both human and non-human animals you would know that there is actually very good reason to make that assumption.

However, don't let me tinkle on your parade. I'm going outside to look for fairies in my garden, join me? Oh, and for you haters, please don't assume there are none out there.

are you referring to alpha waves?

[RandFan]

are you referring to alpha waves?No. Are you?

Personally I prefer delta particles. I get mine at alpha beta base. Very good with mint jelly though plum jam would likely suffice.

[Wheezebucket]

Sometimes my cat sits in such a way that I think he might be praying to some form of cat-god, maybe Catules or Whisker-Jesus. He sits on his butt and folds his little paws, it's adorable. I think he mostly prays for more tuna, maybe some fresh catnip from the garden of kitty-eden.

[plumjam]

I tried to make that apparent with my iron and oxygen example. If one assumes that rocks are busy praying then we of course can assume that animals are praying. Why should we assume that rocks are praying? Why not?

What is the neurological requirement for praying? Please see V.S. Ramachandran's A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness (http://www.amazon.com/Brief-Tour-Human-Consciousness-Impostor/dp/0131486861).

Self awareness.
Theory of mind (the ability to infer another person's mental state.)
Why would something pray when it doesn't even know it exists on a conscious level?
Why would something pray when it doesn't even consciously know that another something (god) is conscious?Simple answer to both questions. It wouldn't. To assume they would is absurd and meaninless. I could say my farts pray but what exactly does that mean?

Neuroscience, contrary to popular belief (sadly), isn't smoke and mirrors. The same logic that gave us the ability to infer the structure of both the Atom and DNA is also capable of figuring out what is and is not capable of praying.

Of course, if you want to believe that Atoms are made of marshmallows and DNA is made of sunshine I can't really prove to you that they are not. You still have to accept emperically based premises. It's the old leading a horse to water problem.

BTW, my appologies if I'm comming off as rude when you were just asking me a simple question.


hmm.. maybe i'm being dense, but i'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, nor even on which side of the argument you stand.

is it that you believe animals could pray but that we couldn't know it?
or you believe animals definitely couldn't pray?
or something else?

[RandFan]

hmm.. maybe i'm being dense, but i'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, nor even on which side of the argument you stand.

is it that you believe animals could pray but that we couldn't know it?
or you believe animals definitely couldn't pray?
or something else?

I'm at a loss. I truly am. I'm not sure how to make it any more clear. I hope you won't think me rude if I try the Socratic method. I ask only one favor. If your purpose is simply rhetorical then let's let the discussion go. I'm not really interested in running the hamster wheel on this, fair enough?

Would a person in a persistent vegetative state ask you for a *cookie? Why or why not?
Would you ask a person in a persistent vegetative state for a *cookie? Why or why not?
Would you ask someone who is conscious and capable of responding to you for a *cookie?

Now, before you reply with any rhetoric, please to simply answer the questions directly. I realize you might not like the questions for various asundry reasons but they are very important. After you have answered then by all means provide any commentary.

*Please don't be fixated on cookie. It could be ice cream, a candy bar, a salad, a glass of water, $20, advice or anything your heart desires.

ETA: To answer your questions. Sorry.

(1) Given our understanding of neuro science there is no basis to assume that animals can pray.
(2) See number 1.
(3) See number 1.

[Wheezebucket]

I don't think Catules appreciates all this heresy flyin' around.

[Hindmost]

If they are predators, they are too busy trying to catch food. If they are prey, they are too busy trying not to be caught. Hmmmm, why did god make nature sooooooooooooooooo violent....it really isn't necessary.

glenn

[joobz]

I tried to make that apparent with my iron and oxygen example. If one assumes that rocks are busy praying then we of course can assume that animals are praying. Why should we assume that rocks are praying? Why not? But this is a poor example, becuase we have no reason to even begin to assume neurological function. I thought this example was poor given your second statement was a refernence to neurobiology. for the rocks, we could start with the fact they don't have a central nervous system therefore no reason to take it further.

What is the neurological requirement for praying? Please see V.S. Ramachandran's A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness (http://www.amazon.com/Brief-Tour-Human-Consciousness-Impostor/dp/0131486861).

Self awareness.
Theory of mind (the ability to infer another person's mental state.)
Why would something pray when it doesn't even know it exists on a conscious level?
Why would something pray when it doesn't even consciously know that another something (god) is conscious?Simple answer to both questions. It wouldn't.
But then your premises are wrong. Arguably, some animals are self aware (e.g., primates, grey wolves) and possess a theory of mind (chimps). so it would be possible for some animals to have the capacity to pray.

Also, I do not know if prayer has to be to an anthropomorphic god (or animorpohic god as the case may be).

[RandFan]

But this is a poor example, becuase we have no reason to even begin to assume neurological function. Actually it is a great example. You are making typical but fatally flawed assumption. Neurological function doesn't translate into (a) self awareness and (b) theory of mind.

An ostrich might have wings but that doesn't mean we should spend much time arguing over its ability to fly. In the end it is emperical that they don't.

But then your premises are wrong. Arguably, some animals are self aware (e.g., primates, grey wolves) and possess a theory of mind (chimps). so it would be possible for some animals to have the capacity to pray.I don't think my premises wrong at all. Just that "animal" is too generally defined. The VAST majority >99.99999% are incapable of self awareness and theory of mind.

I'll grant you your argument though. I thought we were talking animals in general. I appologize for not being specific. It's a fair critisism. So let's get down to brass tacks and undestand what we are talking about.

Would you accept that animals who lack theory of mind and self awareness are incapable of payer?

[plumjam]

[QUOTE=RandFan;2884270]

(1) Given our understanding of neuro science there is no basis to assume that animals can pray.

[QUOTE]

Cheers, that's what I was trying to find out, (and I honestly wasn't trying to be rhetorical)
Let me say, I've read hundreds of posts on this forum and you have the most unique style of anyone here ;)
Not necessarily bad.. in fact, quite challenging... lol

And does your statement have any affect on the corolloray, i.e. that given our understanding of neuroscience there is no basis to assume that animals can't pray?

[RecoveringYuppy]

I'll grant you your argument though. I thought we were talking animals in general. I appologize for not being specific. It's a fair critisism. So let's get down to brass tacks and undestand what we are talking about.

Since plumjam is feeling like you're implying he is dense I would point out he specifically mentioned whales and dolphins. And it looks to me like the evidence favors assuming they are self aware and have a theory of mind. At the very least it's not a settled issue and one shouldn't be treated as delusional for believing them to be self aware.

[RandFan]

Cheers, that's what I was trying to find out, (and I honestly wasn't trying to be rhetorical)
Let me say, I've read hundreds of posts on this forum and you have the most unique style of anyone here ;)
Not necessarily bad.. in fact, quite challenging... lolThanks, I've had to, on more than one occasion, withdraw an argument and even appologize for my forceful instance of a thesis. Like Alanis says, you bleed you learn.

And does your statement have any affect on the corolloray, i.e. that given our understanding of neuroscience there is no basis to assume that animals can't pray?No, animals that are incapable of self awareness and/or theory of mind are incapable of prayer (anything is possible of course but I'm talking reasonable assumptions like a dropped ball will fall to the ground).

[RandFan]

Since plumjam is feeling like you're implying he is dense I would point out he specifically mentioned whales and dolphins. And it looks to me like the evidence favors assuming they are self aware and have a theory of mind. At the very least it's not a settled issue and one shouldn't be treated as delusional for believing them to be self aware.Yes, I missed the whale and dolphin part of his post. My appologies to plumjam and joobz.

There I go again.

[plumjam]

Since plumjam is feeling like you're implying he is dense I would point out he specifically mentioned whales and dolphins. And it looks to me like the evidence favors assuming they are self aware and have a theory of mind. At the very least it's not a settled issue and one shouldn't be treated as delusional for believing them to be self aware.

cheers Yuppy, as a skeptic of the Skeptics I hardly ever get any supportive posts on this forum, I appreciate it. To be fair to RandFan he did just reply with a much more moderate post :)

And I would tend to agree with him that animals who don't exhibit a clear sense of self would be unlikely to be developed enough to pray.

And then that kind of begs the question: is prayer a sign of a superior being?
(Ok, I'm being deliberately mischievous with that one)

[joobz]

Actually it is a great example. You are making typical but fatally flawed assumption. Neurological function doesn't translate into (a) self awareness and (b) theory of mind.
Very true, But there are no examples of something exhibiting (a) and (b) that didn't also have a neurological system.

I don't think my premises wrong at all. Just that "animal" is too generally defined. The VAST majority >99.99999% are incapable of self awareness and theory of mind.i'm used to thinking that if an exception exists, we must amend our statement to account for the exceptions.

Would you accept that animals who lack theory of mind and self awareness are incapable of payer?
In short,yes.

[skeptifem]

cuz god doesnt want them to. duh. :p

[plumjam]

Yes, I missed the whale and dolphin part of his post. My appologies to plumjam and joobz.

There I go again.

Thanks RandFan, no problem.. and I'm impressed that you're the first person on this forum who has offered me an apology. Good on you.

[RandFan]

Very true, But there are no examples of something exhibiting (a) and (b) that didn't also have a neurological system. I'm not sure how relevant this is. There are also no examples of something exhibiting (a) and (b) that are not carbon, protien and DNA based. I think there is a fallacy of composition there. I could be wrong. I will have to think on it.

i'm used to thinking that if an exception exists, we must amend our statement to account for the exceptions. Fair enough.

In short,yes.Cool.

[plumjam]

cuz god doesnt want them to. duh. :p

yeah, he's heartily sick of hearing "tweet tweet, better nest, tweet tweet, less cats" and "oink oink, more acorns, oink oink, i wish my house wasn't a pigsty"..etc etc... so he disconnected the poor loves ;)

[RandFan]

Thanks RandFan, no problem.. and I'm impressed that you're the first person on this forum who has offered me an apology. Good on you.:)

Not the first time and not the last. Thanks.

I can be very persistent, even to the point of being obnoxious but once I realize I'm wrong I can only admit it and appologize. In a way it is very liberating.

[RecoveringYuppy]

What is the neurological requirement for praying? Please see V.S. Ramachandran's A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness (http://www.amazon.com/Brief-Tour-Human-Consciousness-Impostor/dp/0131486861).

Self awareness.
Theory of mind (the ability to infer another person's mental state.)
Why would something pray when it doesn't even know it exists on a conscious level?
Why would something pray when it doesn't even consciously know that another something (god) is conscious?Simple answer to both questions. It wouldn't. To assume they would is absurd and meaninless. I could say my farts pray but what exactly does that mean?

I tend to buy this argument but I see a problem. It could also be used to argue that animals would have no interest in communicating at all, yet they do.

Isn't prayer just an attempt at communication? If we humans aren't smart enough to give up on it in the absence of results and no demonstrable mechanism for it working, why would animals be any smarter?

[plumjam]

:)

Not the first time and not the last. Thanks.

I can be very persistent, even to the point of being obnoxious but once I realize I'm wrong I can only admit it and appologize. In a way it is very liberating.

well it's a very admirable quality, so I respect you for that :)

so much of this forum is people clinging to their original position no matter what (probably me included, to be honest)

[joobz]

:)

Not the first time and not the last. Thanks.

I can be very persistent, even to the point of being obnoxious but once I realize I'm wrong I can only admit it and appologize. In a way it is very liberating.
it's one of the reasons I enjoy your posts. Challenging yet fair.

[RandFan]

I tend to buy this argument but I see a problem. It could also be used to argue that animals would have no interest in communicating at all, yet they do.

Isn't prayer just an attempt at communication? If we humans aren't smart enough to give up on it in the absence of results and no demonstrable mechanism for it working, why would animals be any smarter?Good post. Though I have to object to the "interest" in the communicating at all premise. We know animals communicate. We don't know to what extent they are interested in it if at all.

Again, I reference Ramachandran and also Dawkins Selfish Gene, why does a mother bird feign a broken wing? Is it because of evolutionary fitness or because the bird has consciously figured out that the strategy is an effective one and therefore makes a conscious decision to decieve? Is there a way for us to test either theory?

[plumjam]

I tend to buy this argument but I see a problem. It could also be used to argue that animals would have no interest in communicating at all, yet they do.

Isn't prayer just an attempt at communication? If we humans aren't smart enough to give up on it in the absence of results and no demonstrable mechanism for it working, why would animals be any smarter?

hmm.. you seem to assume that humans who pray don't get any results. I would agree that the great mass dont. But a small minority of humans who have followed various spiritual disciplines certainly report that they get 'results'... to the extent, in fact, that some of them go off to live in caves or huts to spend the remainder of their lives dedicated to prayer, and from their writings and teachings they appear to be the most contented human beings of all. :)

[Wheezebucket]

Like who?

[plumjam]

Like who?

I assume you were referring to my post.

For two wonderful books which will detail all this I would refer you to William James "The Varieties of Religious Experience" and Evelyn Underhill's "Mysticism". Both are recognised as classics in their field.
As to individuals.. Ramakrishna of Calcutta, Dionysius the Areopagite, Swami Vivekananda, Richard Rolle, St. John of the Cross, St. Francis of Assissi, Padre Pio, Guru Nanak, Hazrat Babajan... etc... this is just a small sample.. of people who, if you said to them all they had to do in the rest of their lives was go away to a cave and pray, it would have given them the greatest happiness.

[JoeEllison]

Because humans are the only animals that create imaginary friends?

[andyandy]

animals don't pray because all good christians should pray for them

http://www.eternalanimals.com/

Animal
Prayer
Guide

Prayers and blessings
for your pet that you
can use everyday.

We recommend Animal Prayer Guide so that you will understand the Scriptures pertaining to prayer, faith, and the promises of God. Spiritual knowledge translates into physical blessings when we activate the Word of God.


You'll find sample prayers for saying grace over your pet's food, prayers for sick and lost pets. Daily prayers, prayers for emergencies, for traveling, special occasions, pray for all animals everywhere and animal shelters. Now you can have special blessing services for your animal companions. Anoint them with oil. This book gives sample services for Blessing of the Animals, Animal Dedications, and Memorial Services.

for every joke, there's someone taking it deadly seriously :D

it's also filled with fascinating animal related annecdotes to liven even the dullest party!

Abraham Lincoln Rescued Birds

Once, while riding through the country with some other lawyers, Lincoln was missed from the party, and was seen loitering near a thicket of wild plum trees where the men had stopped a short time before to water their horses. “Where is Lincoln?” asked one of the lawyers. “When I saw him last,” answered another, “he had caught two young birds that the wind had blown out of their nest, and was hunting for the nest to put them back again.”

As Lincoln joined them, the lawyers teased him on his tender-heartedness, and he said: — “I could not have slept unless I had restored those little birds to their mother.” Lincoln had several pets. He had a turkey named Jack, two goats named Nanny and Nanko, ponies, cats, dogs, pigs and a white rabbit. Another interesting fact about Abraham Lincoln was that he used to spend one hour each morning reading the Bible!
(By Noah Brooks – Adapted.)

[Dogdoctor]

Good post. Though I have to object to the "interest" in the communicating at all premise. We know animals communicate. We don't know to what extent they are interested in it if at all.

Again, I reference Ramachandran and also Dawkins Selfish Gene, why does a mother bird feign a broken wing? Is it because of evolutionary fitness or because the bird has consciously figured out that the strategy is an effective one and therefore makes a conscious decision to decieve? Is there a way for us to test either theory?

Yes there is a way to test it. Raise female birds in isolation then see if they exhibit the behavior. Anyway I don't see how arguments about genetics can have anything to do with this discussion unless it has been conclusively shown that religious beliefs are entirely learned behavior. As far as I know it has not.

[RandFan]

Yes there is a way to test it. Raise female birds in isolation then see if they exhibit the behavior.Thank you, there is actually another way. See if birds adapt the deception to other areas. If a bird has figured out that deception is an effective strategy, then, like humans and other great apes, the bird can apply the deception to other areas (Ramachandran A Brief Tour of Human Concious, paperback pg 102).

Anyway I don't see how arguments about genetics can have anything to do with this discussion unless it has been conclusively shown that religious beliefs are entirely learned behavior.I think there is an assumed premise in there. I'm not at all sure how that follows. Please to explain?

In any event, we can test your premise in much the same way as your example above for the bird. In Jonathan Miller's A Brief History of Unbelief it is pointed out that not all religious beliefs are universal (Pascal Boyer). Religious belief itself might be universal but not all religious beliefs and rituals are universal (please note emphasis).

Thanks,

RandFan

[Hokulele]

Thank you, there is actually another way. See if birds adapt the deception to other areas. If a bird has figured out that deception is an effective strategy, then, like humans and other great apes, the bird can apply the deception to other areas (Ramachandran A Brief Tour of Human Concious, paperback pg 102).

I think there is an assumed premise in there. I'm not at all sure how that follows. Please to explain?

In any event, we can test your premise in much the same way as your example above for the bird. In Jonathan Miller's A Brief History of Unbelief it is pointed out that not all religious beliefs are universal (Pascal Boyer). Religious belief itself might be universal but not all religious beliefs and rituals are universal (please note emphasis).

Thanks,

RandFan


You should read Mind of the Raven (http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Raven-Investigations-Adventures-Wolf-Birds/dp/0060930632) by Bernd Heinrich. He basically investigates these very questions. If you like VS Ramachandran, you will like the experiments Heinrich sets up.

[RandFan]

You should read Mind of the Raven (http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Raven-Investigations-Adventures-Wolf-Birds/dp/0060930632) by Bernd Heinrich. He basically investigates these very questions. If you like VS Ramachandran, you will like the experiments Heinrich sets up.Thank you, it's on my list.

Birds, AIU, are quite different from other animals when it comes to intelligence. They are truly remarkable. Alex the Parrot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_(parrot)) is a great example and demonstrates communication capabilities that were before not thought possible. If Alex or ravens are capable of self awareness and mind theory then they are capable of praying. It should be noted that not all bird species have equal cognitive capabilities. The bird with the broken wing behavior, I believe, is not on the level of Alex or ravens.

One other premise that we should consider, animals would need to have a concept of god. Is there a basis to assume that they could or do have such a basis?

I think not but I'm open to evidence.

[articulett]

I heard this "answer" in church. It's because animals are always aware of god's presence, and give praise in their hearts constantly.

Uh huh.

You know, our whole eco-system is built on life devouring life.

I doubt the fly caught in the spider web is praising god any more than the gazelle being ripped to shreds by the lion is.

They prey-- not pray. More productive.

[articulett]

Exactly, and why would we assume that oxygen or iron doesn't pray?...

Actually, if you know anything about the neuroscience of both human and non-human animals you would know that there is actually very good reason to make that assumption.

However, don't let me tinkle on your parade. I'm going outside to look for fairies in my garden, join me? Oh, and for you haters, please don't assume there are none out there.

Do fairies pray?

[articulett]

Yes, I missed the whale and dolphin part of his post. My appologies to plumjam and joobz.

There I go again.

Elephants pass the mirror test too.

[articulett]

:)

Not the first time and not the last. Thanks.

I can be very persistent, even to the point of being obnoxious but once I realize I'm wrong I can only admit it and appologize. In a way it is very liberating.

too bad it's not contagious...

[RandFan]

Elephants pass the mirror test too.Yes, but do they have theory of mind? :) Your point is valid.

[articulett]

hmm.. you seem to assume that humans who pray don't get any results. I would agree that the great mass dont. But a small minority of humans who have followed various spiritual disciplines certainly report that they get 'results'... to the extent, in fact, that some of them go off to live in caves or huts to spend the remainder of their lives dedicated to prayer, and from their writings and teachings they appear to be the most contented human beings of all. :)

have you seen this optical illusion?

http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/video8.htm

[articulett]

I am my dogs' god.

(and what an ungodly god[dess] I am.)

[H3LL]

In the beginning, GOD created the Earth. And man, and all the animals thereon, and therein, didst pray.......

Nomininuminated

:D

.

[Taffer]

Inspired by a joke I just read it had never occured to me to ask the question.

Billions of creatures on Earth and to believers they are supposed to be 'created' by god.

Why do none of them pray except humans?

You are allowed to quote scripture and pretend it's evidence.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/318046c830efa6812.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7818)

:D

.

Mantodeans are cool. :D

[Beerina]

Because humans are the only animals that create imaginary friends?

Animals do, however, create tons of imaginary enemies. Turns out it's to their evolutionary advantage to presume those few jerking tall grass blades are something that might be coming to eat you. Go figure. :)

And if you presume another life form is behind any un-normal thing about you (for good reasons), and mix in some intelligence, then humans simply presume there's some intelligent thing behind that moving grass, or lightning bolt, or drought, or sickness in your child.

They must be evil, or mad at me. In either case, if I refuse to wash my socks (which obviously works when we're on the path to go to the World Series) then they might just help us instead, or at least stop hurting us.

[Tricky]

Heaven (http://www.poetry-archive.com/b/heaven.html)

Fish (fly-replete, in depth of June,
Dawdling away their wat'ry noon)
Ponder deep wisdom, dark or clear,
Each secret fishy hope or fear.
Fish say, they have their Stream and Pond;
But is there anything Beyond?
This life cannot be All, they swear,
For how unpleasant, if it were!
One may not doubt that, somehow, Good
Shall come of Water and of Mud;
And, sure, the reverent eye must see
A Purpose in Liquidity.
We darkly know, by Faith we cry, T
he future is not Wholly Dry.
Mud unto mud! -- Death eddies near --
Not here the appointed End, not here!
But somewhere, beyond Space and Time.
Is wetter water, slimier slime!
And there (they trust) there swimmeth One
Who swam ere rivers were begun,
Immense, of fishy form and mind,
Squamous, omnipotent, and kind; A
nd under that Almighty Fin, The littlest fish may enter in.
Oh! never fly conceals a hook,
Fish say, in the Eternal Brook,
But more than mundane weeds are there,
And mud, celestially fair;
Fat caterpillars drift around,
And Paradisal grubs are found;
Unfading moths, immortal flies,
And the worm that never dies.
And in that Heaven of all their wish,
There shall be no more land, say fish.
--Rupert Brooke

[Hindmost]

Wait, I remember a Gary Larson cartoon where a dog was trying to lure a cat into a dryer with a cat food sign...the dog was praying.

glenn:boxedin: