What is an Atheist? A Challenge

[Wolfman]

Man, am I getting tired of posts that talk about things like "what would an atheist culture be like?", or that otherwise talk about atheism as some sort of system with specific beliefs.

Atheism is defined by one thing only. A lack of belief in god. There is no other belief, value, trait, characteristic, or doctrine that is integral to being an atheist.

People here tend to equate atheism with skepticism; but an atheist can be every bit as lacking in skepticism as the most woo-ish theist. People here tend to equate atheism with commitment to the scientific method; but atheists can be every bit as caught up in entirely unscientific things like homeopathy and psychic powers (not to mention numerous conspiracy theories) as any theist.

It is impossible to say what an atheist society would be like, because it is impossible to define what an "atheist" society would believe in. You could have a culture in which everyone was atheist, based on Communism; and you could have a culture in which everyone was atheist, based on Humanism. Heck, you could have a culture based on the Raelians, who are completely atheist, but are among the top woos in the world (in my opinion).

Please, please, please, people...if you're going to talk about subjects like this, inform yourself first.

There are no values, no beliefs, no dogmas, no doctrines, no values that are implicitly "atheist", apart from a lack of belief in any god. If you're going to talk about "what atheists believe", or "what an atheist culture would be like", you have to define the form of atheism you are talking about.

Are you talking about Humanism? Then you are talking about atheism that places a high value on human rights, democracy, the scientific method, etc.

Are you talking about Communism? Then you are talking about atheism that has a focus on central government control, and an authoritarian style of government where your leaders determine morality for you.

You could have socialist atheists, existentialist atheists...you can even have atheists who promote psychic powers and belief in extraterrestrial lizard men living in caves under the earth.

My challenge to those who seek to make these ill-informed generalizations about "what atheists believe" or "what atheists do":

State one single belief, doctrine, or value that is common to all atheists, beyond the belief that no god exists. It is my assertion that it is impossible to do so.

(This is essentially a mirror of the another post, "What is a Theist (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2885336#post2885336)?"; the purpose of these two posts together is to spark intelligent discussion, and get clearer definitions, rather than continue to rely on the grossly ignorant and false generalizations that tend to surround discussions of both theism and atheism within these forums)

And I will put my money where my mouth is; if anyone can state for me a belief common to all atheists, beyond the lack of belief in a god (or is dependent upon the lack of belief in a god), I will send them $20 via PayPal to reward them for proving me wrong.

[Minarvia]

Nicely said but there are obviously people (trolls) who will refuse to accept the fact that atheism is a lack of belief and continue to foolishly insist that is is a positive disbelief in a god or gods. Sigh...plumjam comes to mind!
Great post, tho! I love it. : )

[JoeEllison]

I found out that atheism wasn't a belief system the moment I met an atheistic UFO loony. :)

[Apathia]

I found out that atheism wasn't a belief system the moment I met an atheistic UFO loony. :)

Or take my Ex-Girlfriend who states decidely that she's an Atheist, and believes in Faires.

Someone here called me a "Woo-Atheist" because I have feelings of reverence toward nature. I wonder if someone needs to write a book titled "Mere Atheism."

[Marquis de Carabas]

State one single belief, doctrine, or value that is common to all atheists, beyond the belief that no god exists. It is my assertion that it is impossible to do so.
Jesus Christ, if He existed at all, was not the son of God.

[articulett]

I don't think you can define atheists as a group... how can you define a group by what they don't believe in.

That being said, I feel much more similar to other atheists than most theists. At least the ones on this forum--they just seem more interested in knowing the truth-- and favoring "not knowing" over believing a lie.

[I less than three logic]

Jesus Christ, if He existed at all, was not the son of God.
Well, that kind of goes without saying if no gods exist. I think that would be a logical conclusion drawn directly from the first premises, not a belief or doctrine held by atheist in and of itself. I'm pretty sure 100% of all atheist would agree that I'm not the son of God also. :)

[Wolfman]

Jesus Christ, if He existed at all, was not the son of God.
LOL -- Cute one, Marquis
I don't think you can define atheists as a group... how can you define a group by what they don't believe in.

That being said, I feel much more similar to other atheists than most theists. At least the ones on this forum--they just seem more interested in knowing the truth-- and favoring "not knowing" over believing a lie.
The theists within this forum tend to come from similar backgrounds, and have similar beliefs. We don't have hard-core Communists, or Raelians, or other atheists like that.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Well, that kind of goes without saying if no gods exist. I think that would be a logical conclusion drawn directly from the first premises, not a belief or doctrine held by atheist in and of itself. I'm pretty sure 100% of all atheist would agree that I'm not the son of God also. :)
Well, this atheist, at least, tends to believe the logical conclusions of accepted premises.

But, really, I was just yanking Wolfie's chain.

[I less than three logic]

Well, this atheist, at least, tends to believe the logical conclusions of accepted premises.

But, really, I was just yanking Wolfie's chain.
Well, I tried to come up with something to say, but just had to admit my post didn't make sense. Turns out I'm guilty of believing the logical conclusions of accepted premises as well. :blush:

[Herzblut]

My challenge to those who seek to make these ill-informed generalizations about "what atheists believe" or "what atheists do":

State one single belief, doctrine, or value that is common to all atheists, beyond the belief that no god exists. It is my assertion that it is impossible to do so.

Show me an atheist that does not adhere to one of the different notions of a naturalistic worldview. Naturalism is a quasi-religious belief system for atheists.

Herzblut

[Achán hiNidráne]

Show me an atheist that does not adhere to one of the different notions of a naturalistic worldview. Naturalism is a quasi-religious belief system for atheists.

Herzblut

My ex-girlfriend for one. She believed in mediums (especially Edward Cayce), reincarnation, astrology, and the tarot, but she didn't believe in "God."

So take your strawman and put it back into the cornfield where it belongs.

[Giraffe107]

Great post Wolfman, now there is somewhere for everyone to link to when deal with 'atheist societies don't work!' etc.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Turns out I'm guilty of believing the logical conclusions of accepted premises as well. :blush:
Good thing, or we'd make you change your name. ;)

[Wolfman]

Great post Wolfman, now there is somewhere for everyone to link to when deal with 'atheist societies don't work!' etc.
That was part of my intent...but the interesting thing to me is that while I have all sorts of responses to the thread on atheism, there is not one single reply yet to it's mirror topic on theism!

[FireGarden]

And I will put my money where my mouth is; if anyone can state for me a belief common to all atheists, beyond the lack of belief in a god (or is dependent upon the lack of belief in a god), I will send them $20 via PayPal to reward them for proving me wrong.

What about 1+1=2

Fits the wording of the paragraph, if not the spirit of the rest of the post.

[vidiviciveni]

What about 1+1=2

Fits the wording of the paragraph, if not the spirit of the rest of the post.

I'm sure there are some mathematicians out there who can show 1+1=1 or 1+1=0, but they need to be atheists, theists need not apply!

[brodski]

It’s interesting to see you posted this topic Wolfman, as I remember us having a disagreement about this a few months back, when you took eth opposite position (you were arguing that atheism= belief in naturalism= belief in evolution) . One of the great things about this forum is that people can change their minds, and argue just as eloquently for the opposite position.

Can I ask you what changed your mind on this topic?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2304853#post2304853

[Tricky]

Thank you Vulfie. I see you have expanded on my post in the Atheist Political Systems thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2884941#post2884941).


Again, what is a tenet of atheism? What is their position on monarchy? What about division of wealth? Who do atheists feel should be allowed to vote?

As Language Award Winner, it is fitting that you should flesh out these ideas with suitably elegant prose. It might be noted that neither plumjam nor Doc answered this question in that thread, so I don't expect any input from them here either. As always, it is up to those who have actually considered these things to give meaningful input.

As to atheism and skepticism, my position has long been that everybody is skeptical about some things. Some are skeptical about more things than others. An atheist is one who is skeptical about God and gods. It implies nothing about how they might feel about fairies or trickle-down economics.

[Wolfman]

It’s interesting to see you posted this topic Wolfman, as I remember us having a disagreement about this a few months back, when you took eth opposite position (you were arguing that atheism= belief in naturalism= belief in evolution) . One of the great things about this forum is that people can change their minds, and argue just as eloquently for the opposite position.

Can I ask you what changed your mind on this topic?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2304853#post2304853
brodski,

Actually, I had a change of mind specifically because of that debate, and consideration of the points raised therein :D

[Wolfman]

I'm sure there are some mathematicians out there who can show 1+1=1 or 1+1=0, but they need to be atheists, theists need not apply!
lol

Yes, i should perhaps have clarified that such beliefs should be beliefs that are integral to the belief in atheism; one could, for example, quite accurately state that all atheists believe that breathing is necessary to the maintenance of human life...but I trust that participants in this thread can look beyond my perhaps poor wording of the challenge and see its actual intent. :)

[Darat]

...snip...

My challenge to those who seek to make these ill-informed generalizations about "what atheists believe" or "what atheists do":

State one single belief, doctrine, or value that is common to all atheists, beyond the belief that no god exists. It is my assertion that it is impossible to do so.

...snip...

That something exists.

[Mangafranga]

That something exists.Also, that some proposition is true. I guess this could be implied from their non-belief in god, but I am not sure. I gave this example just in case someone replies with the uber doubter of knowledge (I know nothing) as a counter example. As it would seem even this person does believe that "I know nothing" is true. Also it is not clear to me if you need to have a belief about god to be an atheist.

[brodski]

Also, that some proposition is true.

You obviously haven’t talked to enough self identifying postmodernists- or maybe I’ve talked to too many…

[Darat]

Or you (to use the paternalistic hierarchal systematic manner of addressing a functional cultural/societal unit) think you have.

[Mangafranga]

Ah yes, the denier of "truth" or "proposition" or "sentence" or "or" or "concept" as sensible concepts is a counter-example. I'll have to think about that.

[Darth Rotor]

People here tend to equate atheism with skepticism; but an atheist can be every bit as lacking in skepticism as the most woo-ish theist. People here tend to equate atheism with commitment to the scientific method; but atheists can be every bit as caught up in entirely unscientific things like homeopathy and psychic powers (not to mention numerous conspiracy theories) as any theist.

It is impossible to say what an atheist society would be like, because it is impossible to define what an "atheist" society would believe in. You could have a culture in which everyone was atheist, based on Communism; and you could have a culture in which everyone was atheist, based on Humanism. Heck, you could have a culture based on the Raelians, who are completely atheist, but are among the top woos in the world (in my opinion).
Well put.
There are no values, no beliefs, no dogmas, no doctrines, no values that are implicitly "atheist", apart from a lack of belief in any god. If you're going to talk about "what atheists believe", or "what an atheist culture would be like", you have to define the form of atheism you are talking about.
At which point, you are discussion a person's philosophy or world view, of which atheism is a subset.
Are you talking about Communism? Then you are talking about atheism that has a focus on central government control, and an authoritarian style of government where your leaders determine morality for you.
That would be Busybodyism, which is alive and well in America. :D
You could have socialist atheists, existentialist atheists...you can even have atheists who promote psychic powers and belief in extraterrestrial lizard men living in caves under the earth.
My challenge to those who seek to make these ill-informed generalizations about "what atheists believe" or "what atheists do":

State one single belief, doctrine, or value that is common to all atheists, beyond the belief that no god exists. It is my assertion that it is impossible to do so.

And I will put my money where my mouth is; if anyone can state for me a belief common to all atheists, beyond the lack of belief in a god (or is dependent upon the lack of belief in a god), I will send them $20 via PayPal to reward them for proving me wrong.[/QUOTE]
I will be offer that your challenge is stated incompletely, so as a rascally nitpicker, I will offer that there are three tenets, or statements of dogma/doctrine, in any practice, or philosophical, position of atheism:

I think it is worth breaking down into addressing both monotheists and polytheists

There is no God/Allah/Yahweh/Creator

There are no gods

There are no angels, and no demons

Some will argue that the first two go together, however, given the role monotheism plays, and its focus as modern atheism's target, the lesser included case does not seem useful to me.

I can see where others would find the lesser included case as sufficient, and leave statement one as a subset of statement two. Were that the case, however, you'd not find so many atheists, both amateur and professional, focusing their rhetorical darts on the monotheist, or Deist, model of a god.

DR

[bignickel]

Stating "what atheists believe" is like stating "what non-stamp-collectors" collect.

[Herzblut]

My ex-girlfriend for one. She believed in mediums (especially Edward Cayce), reincarnation, astrology, and the tarot, but she didn't believe in "God."

I have a hard time including occultism and magical thinking into atheism.


So take your strawman and put it back into the cornfield where it belongs.
I don't follow any of your instructions.

Herzblut

[FireGarden]

but I trust that participants in this thread can look beyond my perhaps poor wording of the challenge and see its actual intent. :)

Well, I did.
Maybe, as a punishment, you should be relieved of your TLA award 20 seconds earlier than due. :)

[FireGarden]

I have a hard time including occultism and magical thinking into atheism.

I think that's the point.
Atheism is just a lack of belief in god. Anything else is personal to individual atheists, not part of a cult/religion/club/....

[Jimbo07]

Stating "what atheists believe" is like stating "what non-stamp-collectors" collect.

Nope!

As a passionate believer in disbelief, or know-it-all know-nothing agnostic I can't accept this. From the many battles over terminology on this forum, I have concluded that the term "atheist," can be used to encompass both those who merely lack belief (incorporating me under that umbrella, against my will) and those who assert that "God does not exist."

It's like Trekkies. You can't apply the label yourself. The surest sign, to me, that someone is a 'Trekkie,' is that they want to be called a 'Trekker.' :D

[Apathia]

That something exists.

Even there, that's not so universal a proposition. Buddhist Attheists would qualify that no thing has an inherent existance.

[Apathia]

I have a hard time including occultism and magical thinking into atheism.Herzblut

As indeed you should, but my XGF does it with ease and with no descernible cognative dissonance.

Atheism may not be an intellectual or critical thinking conclusion. There are plenty of anecdotal Atheists. God hasn't intervened in their lives the way they expected, so there isn't one. They personaly haven't had a religious experience, so there isn't a God. Their parents are such religious fanatics that its a matter of independence to be an Atheist. Atheism is so cool!

[bignickel]

Nope!

As a passionate believer in disbelief, or know-it-all know-nothing agnostic I can't accept this. From the many battles over terminology on this forum, I have concluded that the term "atheist," can be used to encompass both those who merely lack belief (incorporating me under that umbrella, against my will) and those who assert that "God does not exist."
Nyet!

An atheist is simply someone who is not a theist. I.E. Someone who does not believe in god/s.

If you want to further quantify anything about a particular person's beliefs, then go ahead and tack 'strong', 'soft', 'hard', or 'gooey' to the word. But we're only talking about the single word here, by itself, at it's most basic meaning.

[Jimbo07]

Nyet!

An atheist is simply someone who is not a theist. I.E. Someone who does not believe in god/s.

If you want to further quantify anything about a particular person's beliefs, then go ahead and tack 'strong', 'soft', 'hard', or 'gooey' to the word. But we're only talking about the single word here, by itself, at it's most basic meaning.

Nuh uh!

The one thing I have found at JREF is that this is how you define atheism. It also seems to be one of the most popular definitions. In fact, to defend this particular belief, people have gone down the exact same route as you have in trying to get to a base definition of the word itself.

I wasn't trying to reignite the terminology wars, but glibly try to sum up my observations of those wars. I'm actually not going to provide my personal opinion on this (other than to reiterate my displeasure about being included under such a general term), for just this reason.

Atheist seems to be tied to a usage thing. Here, at JREF, it seems to be used in multiple circumstances to mean slightly different things, depending on the speaker. It is also often used in conjunction with your adjectives (such as weak, strong, noodly, etc.), but ultimately seems to provide a large umbrella term. This general umbrella term is part of what leads to the problem set out in the OP...

[Beerina]

Jesus Christ, if He existed at all, was not the son of God.

Good, but in this case you could make myriad similar claims about every supernatural belief of every religion.

Fairies, too, unless these are purely naturalistic little folk with wings, possessing no magical abilities nor origin. Given fairies are usually sporting bug-like back wings rather than vertebrate-style wings (which are co-incidental with forelimbs), I would be very interested in their evolutionary path.

[Achán hiNidráne]

I have a hard time including occultism and magical thinking into atheism.

Well, that's too bad. Gina believed in all manner of woo except God. I'm sorry if that doesn't fit into your stereotypical world view, but it's the truth.

I suggest you deal with it.

[Dogdoctor]

True but probably most atheists can probably be categorized by their beliefs. Those who are against religion, those who are tolerant of religion and those who see nothing wrong with religion per se.

[six7s]

My challenge to those who seek to make these ill-informed generalizations about "what atheists believe" or "what atheists do":

State one single belief, doctrine, or value that is common to all atheists, beyond the belief that no god exists. It is my assertion that it is impossible to do so.

Well, I do NOT seek to make ill-informed generalisations... but I think I know of a value that (hopefully) is common to all atheists:

Keep an open mind (but not wide enough for your brain to fall out!) regarding all matters relating to theology

Although there is no evidence to support the existence, let alone influence, of any gods, the concept is (possibly) universal throughout human history

It is probable that the concept of god(s) was born of the human need for explanations for the mysterious

This need is unlikely to go away

However, theism doesn't even begin to explain anything

In direct contrast, the scienctific method is only concerend with explanations and, going by history, science has, is and probably will always be our most likely source of real understanding of matters relating to the universe


I'm sure there are some mathematicians out there who can show 1+1=1 or 1+1=0, but they need to be atheists, theists need not apply!

1+1=1

If you have one pile of sawdust
And I have one pile of sawdust
And we add them together...
How many piles of sawdust do we have?

[Wolfman]

I'm quite enjoying reading the responses here, thanks to everyone that has participated. One quick response:
Well, I do NOT seek to make ill-informed generalisations... but I think I know of a value that (hopefully) is common to all atheists:
Keep an open mind (but not wide enough for your brain to fall out!) regarding all matters relating to theology

Although there is no evidence to support the existence, let alone influence, of any gods, the concept is (possibly) universal throughout human history

It is probable that the concept of god(s) was born of the human need for explanations for the mysterious

This need is unlikely to go away

However, theism doesn't even begin to explain anything

In direct contrast, the scienctific method is only concerend with explanations and, going by history, science has, is and probably will always be our most likely source of real understanding of matters relating to the universe
This is one of the more common misconceptions I see in regard to atheists. Actually, an atheist's lack of belief can be every bit as based on ignorance as a theist's. Consider a child who is born and raised in an atheist home, and is simply never introduced to the concept of a god, or who is told that gods don't exist. No effort is made to explain why this is the case; it is just stated as a fact.

In such a case, although I do think their belief is true, nevertheless the foundation of that belief is not rational examination, nor is it based on critical thinking. It is simply a case of an authority telling you something, and you accepting it as true.

I would personally feel that a lot of the woo-ish atheists out there come from this kind of background; they've been taught that there is no god, but have not been taught to evaluate their beliefs critically. The fact that they accepted atheism uncritically means that they will be open to accepting other beliefs uncritically also.

And, as I stated (and as others here have reinforced), being an atheist in no way means that you are committed to or believe in the scientific method. There are plenty of atheists out there who will state with great conviction that medically tested treatments are worthless, while unproven homeopathic treatments are of great value.

Yes, there are values we would like to think are "part of being an atheist"; and, for some portion of the atheist population, those values would be true. But they are very far from being universal.

[FireGarden]

1+1=1

If you have one pile of sawdust
And I have one pile of sawdust
And we add them together...
How many piles of sawdust do we have?

Okay, okay
1+1 (sometimes)=2

But, if Pythagorus offers to take you out rowing, then I suggest you decline. Just in case.

[six7s]

Consider a child who is born and raised in an atheist home <snip/>

...the foundation of that belief is not rational examination, nor is it based on critical thinking <snip/>

I would personally feel that a lot of the woo-ish atheists <snip/>

...being an atheist in no way means that you are committed to or believe in the scientific method

NB, I ain't arguing here... just asking for clarification

If 'critical thinking' skills are a pre-requisite to making an informed choice (which I think is a fair assumption) then surely most young children are out of the picture re Keeping an open mind (but not wide enough for your brain to fall out!) regarding all matters relating to theology

Purely anecdotal evidence in support of my idea:
I live in an officially secular country

I have talked with many, many teenage atheists and they have ALL articulated rational reasons to support their stance and have ALL said they think that it is nonsense to say, categorically, that something doesn't exist... etc etc

Evidence that would prove to me that my hunch is wrong
If anyone knows - anecdotally will do - of ANY kids with adequate 'crtical thinking skills' that call themselves atheists who have heard about theism and decided to completely ignore it

Woo-ish atheists
In my book, those who believe in any kind of 'Universal Spirit' or 'Global Energy' or 'Mysterious Force' type stuff: they're theists
If this offends anyone, I don't understand, but I sincerely apologise

Atheists who do not support the scientific method
Yep, you're right - sadly (for them, not me... I don't mind being proven wrong)

Okay, okay
1+1 (sometimes)=2

But, if Pythagorus offers to take you out rowing, then I suggest you decline. Just in case.

My 1+1=1 is bogus-maths, cos it only works when there are no units

And I'm afraid that, despite being fluent in bollocksrowlocks, the Pythogoras/rowing bit went straight over my head, which bugs me :o

Please do explain - via PM if doing so risks topic drift

[FireGarden]

My 1+1=1 is bogus-maths, cos it only works when there are no units

And I'm afraid that, despite being fluent in bollocksrowlocks, the Pythogoras/rowing bit went straight over my head, which bugs me :o

Please do explain - via PM if doing so risks topic drift

Pythagorus was into numerology. He is reported to have drowned the guy that showed him sqrt(2) was irrational, thereby showing that integers (and their ratios) weren't the be all and end all.

Proof by force.
Not as popular in maths today.

[six7s]

State one single belief, doctrine, or value that is common to all atheists, beyond the belief that no god exists. It is my assertion that it is impossible to do so

Thanks for sowing the seed of thought Wolfman

It prompted me to revisit the published thoughts of Bertrand Russell, my 'guru' of atheistic thought

Like Shakespeare, Russell reads like a contiguous string of quotable quotes, which are - 37 years after his death - v easy to find on the interwebs

Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.
-- Bertrand Russell, Unpopular Essays, "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish" (1950), p. 149, quoted from James A Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief


What makes a free thinker is not his beliefs, but the way in which he holds them.

If he holds them because his elders told him they were true when he was young, or if he holds them because if he did not he would be unhappy, his thought is not free; but if he holds them because, after careful thought, he finds a balance in their favor, then his thought is free, however odd his conclusions may seem.
Bertrand Russell, "The Value of Free Thought"


The good life, as I conceive it, is a happy life

I do not mean that if you are good you will be happy

I mean that if you are happy you will be good
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

Not sure if this last is a universal belief among atheists, but it should be