Please help me snap out of it!

[L2B22]

I am multi-cultural, trilingual, and consider myself to be a person of slightly above average intelligence (115 IQ, nothing special). My whole life I have always felt as if the education system was letting me down; I was never challenged and easily lost interest in my classes even through honors classes in high school. I was bored with my homework and never did it but was able to do decent on exams (A- to B-/C+) considering I was never really paying attention.

As a result I got poor grades, had to go to the JC in my area, and am now at a mediocre college, where once again I am bored, not challenged, and wishing there was something out there for me.

I stumbled across the site and it's exactly what I've been looking for; people who THINK! People who don't just listen to the hows and whats that society feeds us but people who ask WHY. It seems that the education system is failing to teach critical thinking in the classroom, which produces ignorant followers. Now I feel like I am way behind the rest of the world in regards to my critical thinking skills.

My queuestion to you guys: How can I improve my critical thinking skills? Is there any material I can read to improve my logic skills? Thanks in advance.

[DanishDynamite]

Glad you like the site. I do too, mostly.

Regarding links to skeptical tutorials, others here are more knowledgeable than I.

Just wanted to say, Hi.

[Jeff Corey]

Suggestions for books available as inexpensive paperbacks on Amazon:
Randi: Flim Flam, and other titles that you find interesting.
Sagan: The Demon Haunted World
Gilovich: How We Know What Isn't So
Good luck and feel free to ask questions here.

[athon]

I feel for you. Seriously, I do. You've fallen foul not so much of a bad system but rather a bad run of mediocre, uninspiring educators.

Taking ahold of your own education can be a good thing if you're dissatisfied. Find social groups and societies which can offer you something by way of resources and stimulating discussion. Feel free to use this place (it is indeed a good one). Read the books Jeff suggested above.

Unfortunately none of these things can grant you accreditation of any sort. But it will illuminate some opportunities for you.

Welcome aboard!

Athon

[SezMe]

My queuestion to you guys: How can I improve my critical thinking skills? Is there any material I can read to improve my logic skills? Thanks in advance.
Critical thinking is so much more than just logic, although logic is certainly a necessary ingredient. It is also something that you cannot get just out of reading a book, although reading is certainly a necessary ingredient.

You need to find a way to get engaged in life. As suggested, look for resources at your school that exist outside of the classroom. Talk to a counsler about other ways of expanding your education.

What really interests you? Find ways to pursue it both within the school context and in greater life.

Critical thinking skills are something you mostly learn by doing, not by studying.

And, finally, welcome. Yes, this site is an excellent learning aid. Do you read Randi's Swift commentaries?

[this charming man]

I second the suggestion for The Demon Haunted World (http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469) by Carl Sagan.

It is fantastic.

[LibraryLady]

Read read read read read.

And Discuss.

Read not only skeptical books, but books by and about "woo." It'll give you the opportunity to practice your critical thinking skills.

Do you have a goal or are you just putting in time?

[this charming man]

Oh and welcome!

:welcome4

[L2B22]

I have yet to read any commentaries yet I completeley new to all of this so I am pretty excited :)

My main problem is that it feels like everyone around me is in their own world with not a clue as to what's really going on in the world as far as information goes (philosophy, religion, cultures, education, etc.).

I'm not really sure what kind of goal I could set, it seems as though critical thinking is pretty intangible so having a measurable goal might be difficult. I am going to start by reading the suggested books (somewhere in betwen my 15 units :p) and go from there.

Anyone like me when they started? If so what goals did you have?

[Loss Leader]

My question to you guys: How can I improve my critical thinking skills? Is there any material I can read to improve my logic skills? Thanks in advance.


Get yourself two books, both very easy and fun to read:

The first is Logic and Mr. Limbaugh (http://www.amazon.com/Logic-Mr-Limbaugh-Dittoheads-Fallacious/dp/0812692942/ref=sr_1_1/105-4894801-6778846?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187663667&sr=8-1). Here, a philosophy professor uses excepts from Rush Limbaugh to illustrate how to make a logical argument and how to recognize fallacies when you hear them in normal speach.

Despite the title, this book has no political agenda. Th author never attacks Limbaugh's politics or the truth of any of his conclusions. He only attacks the way Rush puts together arguments. It's a very fun way to learn this stuff without ever once realizing that you're learning.

The second is, and I'm being serious, the Princeton Review or Kaplan LSAT study guide. The LSAT is the test for law school admissions but there is nothing on it about law, history, politics or anything else. Instead, the LSAT uses games, puzzles and reading comprehension to test your logical reasoning skills.

Working through the book and taking the practice tests will help you learn logical thinking in an engaged and interactive way. And it's not even that hard. Trust me: some real idiots make it through law school. I am one of them.

Good luck.

[juniper_ann]

I am multi-cultural, trilingual, and consider myself to be a person of slightly above average intelligence (115 IQ, nothing special). My whole life I have always felt as if the education system was letting me down; I was never challenged and easily lost interest in my classes even through honors classes in high school. I was bored with my homework and never did it but was able to do decent on exams (A- to B-/C+) considering I was never really paying attention.

As a result I got poor grades, had to go to the JC in my area, and am now at a mediocre college, where once again I am bored, not challenged, and wishing there was something out there for me.

I stumbled across the site and it's exactly what I've been looking for; people who THINK! People who don't just listen to the hows and whats that society feeds us but people who ask WHY. It seems that the education system is failing to teach critical thinking in the classroom, which produces ignorant followers. Now I feel like I am way behind the rest of the world in regards to my critical thinking skills.


Trilingual! Oh my gosh I'm so jealous!!!

I think you are mistaking education for something that happens to you. The older you get, the more education becomes something that you do for yourself. College is just a tool--a good college may be a Swiss Army Knife, and bad college may be an old steak knife (which, admittedly, sucks), but it's still just a tool.

My parents and I paid my university to teach me some rudimentary skills that I, and my employer, could shape into a career. I also got a piece of paper that I could show to employers to prove that I had undergone that process.

Meanwhile my education happened in the library, on the internet, in the lobby of my dorm, in homework groups, in coffee shops, while out shopping with my girlfriends, while making dinner with my sister, at parties, at movies, etc.

Join a club, any club, as long as it's not so big that you feel lost in the crowd. Ask people at parties how they feel about controversial subjects. Enter debates readily...but always with the end goal of learning something.

[athon]

First goal; learn that no matter what, you're always capable of being wrong. This humility is the core of skepticism and really what it means to be 'open minded'.

Second goal; learn the value of evidence and how to interpret it. People always use some form of evidence to come to a conclusion, yet some things accepted as evidence are misapplied. Viewing the strength of evidence in terms of 'how confident you are that it is being applied correctly' plays a massive role in skepticism.

Third goal; learn how to be accepting. Skepticism is full of folks who get frustrated and egotistical over the fact that they can think critically while the world goes to hell in a handbasket. This does nothing for you than get your blood pressure up. So while you learn how to apply healthy skepticism to things you learn, also learn to apply a little humility and compassion on those who don't see things as you do.

Fourth goal; learn what you can change and, more importantly, what you can't change. You can voice your opinion without having everybody jump to your side. Be a nice person and people will want to accept your views more than if you rant and abuse them. And often there's no changing some people's perceptions. Accept that and try to focus on the possible rather than the impossible.

Hope this helps.

Athon

[blobru]

...
Second goal; learn the value of evidence and how to interpret it. People always use some form of evidence to come to a conclusion, yet some things accepted as evidence are misapplied. Viewing the strength of evidence in terms of 'how confident you are that it is being applied correctly' plays a massive role in skepticism.
...
...
I'm not really sure what kind of goal I could set, it seems as though critical thinking is pretty intangible so having a measurable goal might be difficult. I am going to start by reading the suggested books (somewhere in betwen my 15 units :p) and go from there.
Anyone like me when they started? If so what goals did you have?

Hello L2B22 :)

I would suggest as your very first goal to apply Athon's second goal (is that confusing?) to your courses this fall. Most textbooks are set up in steps; one chapter builds on the next. As you study, remember to ask yourself basic review questions: "what's this say? could I say it simpler?", "where's this formula come from? can I explain it in words?", "does this new info agree with the old info? why or why not?", etc. It's a great way to check what you know, which is at least as important as questioning everyone else.
It might not sound like much now, but in fact it has everything to do with becoming a critical thinker (I think). And as an added bonus, it should get you some decent grades as well. ;)

[a.real.girl]

Welcome L2B22!

I'm going to add another vote for The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, and The Pleasure of Finding Things Out, by Richard Feynman.

And, if you've got an mp3 player, there are LOTs of great podcasts out there. I live in the states, but by podcasting can listen to lots of great stuff from the BBC and ABC (Australian). There's tons of science, space, skepticism and other cool, rational stuff. There's even a podcast called The Skeptics Toolbox (or something very like) that will introduce some basic concepts.

Enjoy this great new journey!

-A

[Solus]

Athon has some great advice there, and I need to check out Loss leader's book recommendation about the LSAT test.

I've sort of been where you have been before. I went to a community college partly because I just didn't care much and was never much motivated. I just took my parent's advice and went to a JC. The future was too difficult to even imagine.

Well this is a great forum don't be intimidated by some of the great writers here. You'll certainly find your place here on the forums. The Demon Haunted World is my book recommendation.

Welcome to the forums!

[articulett]

And Skepdic's dictionary has little critical thinking lessons. I don't think you could have stumbled across a better resource with a greater breadth of info. they are eager to share.

The Dawkins link has his videos and randi's videos, and they are a gem. And I liked Thomas Kida's, Don't Believe Everything You Think. Plus I listed a lot of great podcasts in the podcast section... I keep my mp3 player filled as I go about my chores. Long lines have never been so entertaining.

[Yllanes]

As a result I got poor grades, had to go to the JC in my area, and am now at a mediocre college, where once again I am bored, not challenged, and wishing there was something out there for me.

I'm going to go in a different direction than other people here and tell you not to neglect your studies. If you have the ability to carry them out, you will regret it later. What are you studying? There is always more you can do to challenge yourself, even if the classes are not very good.

[EHLO]

Hi L2B22, I agree with Yllanes - don't neglect your studies.

I've known lots of very intelligent people who felt that the educational environment didn't engage them enough so they switched off and suffered the consequences.

It's a challenge to jump through hoops sometimes but a necessary part of life so learn to make the most of it and achieve as much as you can. Anything else is a bonus.

As for resources, I'd add "The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy", if for nothing more than a laugh and a sense of perspective.

[Joppy]

You can start practicing critical thinking by examining your own position in an issue. Try to be as detailed as possible when coming up with reasons to support your beliefs. Then examine those reasons.

As for finding JC boring, you can challenge yourself to master this system by getting good marks. You can think of 'how to get marks' as a puzzled to be solved and develop strategies to motivate yourself to work for those marks. This is how I kept myself studying. (Although, I find myself not interested in school more beacuse I find the material too challenging.)

[Skeptic Ginger]

OK, I have to put in my 2 cents on media literacy and source checking.

Start with The Media Awareness Site (http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/teachers/media_literacy/what_is_media_literacy.cfm). There are some good summaries, key points and links to other useful sites.

And there is Media Literacy on Wikiversity. (http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Media_literacy)

What you end up reading will be the things which interest you. I tend to read a lot about marketing, framing the news with the news media's political bias, and political persuasion. That's because I want to spread things which immunize people from the lies used to manipulate them. I think that is at the heart of the skeptical movement. More importantly, I think the less the masses can be manipulated, the better world we will have.

I also investigate things I read in two ways. First is source checking. And Source Watch (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=SourceWatch) is an excellent resource for that.

Some sources like Fox News, Bill O'Reilly and The Discovery Institute are well known for their lack of honesty. So you know to expect falsehoods from their mouths. Other sources might be far right or far left or extreme Libertarian but that just tells you to be wary of what they say, it may or may not be valid but more than likely it is one sided.

The second thing I do is look for additional sources of related information. This is true whether it is a new scientific discovery or a political accusation.

And my final advice, always be open to changing your conclusions. A lot of people here don't believe I am open to changing my views based on new evidence. That's because I base my views on as much evidence as I can to begin with. That means it does take something rather substantial to convince me I'm wrong. But the truth is, if you can't follow the evidence where it leads you, you have lost your critical thinking ability. As a fanatical fact checker, i can say with certainty, I have not lost my ability to go where the evidence leads.

[jon]

As for finding JC boring, you can challenge yourself to master this system by getting good marks. You can think of 'how to get marks' as a puzzled to be solved and develop strategies to motivate yourself to work for those marks. This is how I kept myself studying. (Although, I find myself not interested in school more beacuse I find the material too challenging.)

Also, if you don't find the courses sufficiently challenging, have you tried asking the lecturers what else you could look at? Obviously be tactful, but I'd expect that most would be very happy to suggest additional more advanced reading, if a particular area interests you.

[phyz]

I think you are mistaking education for something that happens to you. The older you get, the more education becomes something that you do for yourself.

...humility is the core of skepticism and really what it means to be 'open minded'.

...learn how to be accepting. Skepticism is full of folks who get frustrated and egotistical over the fact that they can think critically while the world goes to hell in a handbasket... Learn to apply a little humility and compassion on those who don't see things as you do.


The good news is that you've got access to some pretty smart and well-balanced people right here. And some very good suggested readings, too.

For regular injections of reassurance that there are nice people out in the world doing skepticism/critical thinking, tune in to the Skepticality podcast (http://skepticality.com).

One last thing: be patient. Now that you know where you want to go, rest assured that you'll get there. But it will take time. And that's OK.

[Complexity]

Don't pay any attention to the IQ score that you were given, and by all means don't allow yourself to be limited by it.

We have no idea of the conditions under which the test was taken, which test was taken, or any extenuating circumstances. Also, not all of us are convinced that it means much.

[six7s]

I was never challenged and easily lost interest in my classes even through honors classes in high school. I was bored

All is not lost!

The cure for boredom is curiosity
There is no cure for curiosity.
Dorothy Parker


With that in mind, it seems you might qualify for the MDC ;)

It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.
Albert Einstein

On a more serious note, its clear that you already have critical-thinking skills, that allow you to see that there is more to life than simply accepting "the hows and whats that society feeds us" and you ARE one of the "people who ask WHY"

Don't pay any attention to the IQ score

Absolutely!

Men are wise in proportion, not to their experience, but to their capacity for experience.
James Boswell Life of Samuel Johnson, 1791

Despite the gender bias in Boswell's language, the sentiment is as true today as it ever was

With three languages to choose from, literacy, access to books and the internet literally at your finger tips, your capacity for experience is immeasurable!

[SynapticDancer]

Depending on the public education system, or a "mediocre" college to teach critical thinking skills is like planting a pebble and expecting a flower to grow.

In addition, what you describe sounds more like learned helplessness. Seeking stimulation from some external source as your only means of motivation, and then blaming the environment for not delivering on your expectations (rendering you bored) is like spending your days praying to god for wealth and blaming that god for your poverty.

Your mind and your life are not things that simply happen to you while you remain an innocent bystander unable to effect the outcome. You are a part of the process, and your actions and decisions lead you where you are. You were not forced to do poorly high school, and you are not forced to do poorly in college either.

You don't feel challenged by your curriculum, so you are left with no choice but to do poorly? Well then guess what, you're never going to end up in an environment that will challenge you.

I'm not going to recommend books, websites or anything else. You managed to find this one all on your own, so I know you are capable of doing more. Besides, thinking isn't mimicking the actions of others. You wrote that you want to be around people who don't just listen to the hows and whats that society feeds them, so why are you asking to be fed these very things? It will be much more rewarding (ahem..challenging) if you find your own sources for creative thought and insight. Critical thinking isn't a set of ideas, it is the process of developing or finding, examining and accepting/rejecting ideas.

My only advice, since you did ask, is that you stop allocating responsibility and blame for your situation and boredom, and create your own challenges, questions, insights and discoveries.

I wish you many happy, intellectual adventures.

[Andronicus]

Self motivation is a necessary part of maturity. If you want to answer to bells all your life on an assembly line or in a department store, you only need enough motivation to show up. If you want to truly want to improve yourself, better yourself, you need to motivate yourself.

Is there a specific topic you're interested in, I'm sure this group is aching to give you more specific book recommendations.


Is there a specific topic you're interested in, I'm sure this group is aching to give you more specific book recommendations.

[Tokenconservative]

Not sure how old you are LB222, but you are going to look long and hard to find any critical thinking courses of study these days in any public school and most/all public colleges, and most private ones, too.

When I took the honors course of study in Critical Thinking in college (mid 90s) that's just what it was: learning to think critically and putting that in to practice. Already, at that time, this course was under unrelenting attack from a far-left-leaning admin. that did not like its "direction."

This is the attitude you will find today, almost without exception, in which "critical thinking" means finding ways to be critical of the "status quo" (so long as that means an ideologically, socio-culturally and of course politically conservative status quo).

Of course there ar books out there across all areas of study, including those specifically aimed at training yourself to think critically.

I recommend the following to get you started:

The Art of Thinking (A guide...) by Vincent Ryan Ruggiero,
Asking the Right Questions, M. Niel Brown/Stuart M. Keeley,
and of course,
The Structures of Scientific Revolutions, Thoma S. Kuhn.

Best,
Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Depending on the public education system, or a "mediocre" college to teach critical thinking skills is like planting a pebble and expecting a flower to grow.

In addition, what you describe sounds more like learned helplessness. Seeking stimulation from some external source as your only means of motivation, and then blaming the environment for not delivering on your expectations (rendering you bored) is like spending your days praying to god for wealth and blaming that god for your poverty.

Your mind and your life are not things that simply happen to you while you remain an innocent bystander unable to effect the outcome. You are a part of the process, and your actions and decisions lead you where you are. You were not forced to do poorly high school, and you are not forced to do poorly in college either.

You don't feel challenged by your curriculum, so you are left with no choice but to do poorly? Well then guess what, you're never going to end up in an environment that will challenge you.

I'm not going to recommend books, websites or anything else. You managed to find this one all on your own, so I know you are capable of doing more. Besides, thinking isn't mimicking the actions of others. You wrote that you want to be around people who don't just listen to the hows and whats that society feeds them, so why are you asking to be fed these very things? It will be much more rewarding (ahem..challenging) if you find your own sources for creative thought and insight. Critical thinking isn't a set of ideas, it is the process of developing or finding, examining and accepting/rejecting ideas.

My only advice, since you did ask, is that you stop allocating responsibility and blame for your situation and boredom, and create your own challenges, questions, insights and discoveries.

I wish you many happy, intellectual adventures.


And they say _I_ am caustic.....

A bit harsh, I think. Not entirely off the mark, but fails to take into account a number of things, especially what sociologists call "life chances." I don't know enough about the OP to speak intelligently, but if this is some smart kid in a very poor rural or inner-city (by the way: demographics suggest we are soon going to have to change the way we look at the "inner city" in this regard...'nother time) who has "mediocre" parents and is facing all the problems a public schools situation such as this provides, he may have a good reason to be whining.

I remember a guy I knew, grew up in a professional household (dad was a engineer, mom a banker--not a teller, the lady RAN the bank) in an upper-middle-class environment; good schooling, parents intently involved in and interested in their kids' educations and personal/emotional and social lives, etc., etc.

He used to rail for hours about those unable to "pick themselves up by their bootstraps" and get an MIT education just like he did...that his parents paid for.

Gee, yeah...good point.

Tokie

[TubeMonkey]

This is the attitude you will find today, almost without exception, in which "critical thinking" means finding ways to be critical of the "status quo" (so long as that means an ideologically, socio-culturally and of course politically conservative status quo).



Is this really how Critical Thinking courses are taught now? Its been about 15 years since I was in school, but I remember a very positive History lesson regarding WWII. It taught us how to identify primary, secondary sources, what to look for in propaganda, and to try and think of the influences upon the people/person writing the documents. We were set the task of finding 6 or 7 reports of the same news story, finding out what they had in common, how they differed, and if we could find any other external evidence that could back up the information they contained. This lesson really made an impression on me, and I think most of the others in the class. It definitely opened my eyes as to the accuracy of the average newspaper story!

[L2B22]

Wow thank you all so much for your responses. I especially enjoyed lmb2150's post as you brought up some very good points. By the way someone asked how old I am, I am 22.

I have been thinking about my life a lot recently, trying to disect it into main thoughts and ideas, which unconsciously I follow on a day to day basis. Specifically I have been looking at my issues with not being motivated, as lmb2150 touched on.

I looked back and think I have pinpointed the main ideas, which keep me from being self motivated (hopefully this post doesn't come out too much like a family therapy session).

From a very young age my parents always had me in various extra-curiculars, which I did not choose to do; basketball, boyscouts,clarinet, piano, guitar, etc. They would brag about me to their friends/familiy and put the spot light on me, making me do things like perform piano songs at every family function. The problem was that I was always shy and I never wanted to do these things (this would make them angry). I always felt like I was not good enough and I also felt angry that I was always being tested to see if I was good enough.I now realize that my parents just loved me and wanted to show me off to their friends. I also realized that they would accept me regardless of what I did.

I have decided to reject the following idea, which I created at a young age: Don't give people the satisfaction of qualifying you by your merrits. Don't try at all and then they can't qualify you at all.

I instead have now chose to replace the old idea with this new one: The only person that can know whether or not you are good enough is YOU. In the end how others feel about you is not as important as how YOU feel about yourself.

In lieu of all of this my view on life has changed tremendously. My goals used to be extreme, setting them to what I thought others would find impressive. I now have realistic goals, set by me for me. I don't need a 4.0 GPA and setting such a goal is setting me up for failure since I've never gotten over a 2.5 GPA.In reality I would be happy with a 3.25 (my current goal), and this is a challenging goal and it is MINE so I am motivated to take this on (once I reach a 3.25 we will see what challenge I will set for myself then).

I feel as though I am taking a step in the right direction. I find myself very confused at times and at other times frustrated, almost as if everything I know is wrong but I am enjoying every moment of it.

[Gib]

As well as the books already recommended, I find that podcasts really help me keep in touch with my skeptical nature. Get subscribed to "The Skeptics Guide to the Universe", "Skepticality", and "Skeptoid". They mostly discuss scientific and religious subjects.
To really keep your skeptical juices flowing, you should also keep up on the media and the way they spin things.. Not sure how to do that in the USA, which is where I think you're from..
In Australia there's a program called "Media watch" on TV which you can download over bittorrent.

If you're ever in london, come to "Skeptics in the Pub". There's one tomorrow (Tuesday) night. It's skepticism, with beer!!

[Tokenconservative]

Is this really how Critical Thinking courses are taught now? Its been about 15 years since I was in school, but I remember a very positive History lesson regarding WWII. It taught us how to identify primary, secondary sources, what to look for in propaganda, and to try and think of the influences upon the people/person writing the documents. We were set the task of finding 6 or 7 reports of the same news story, finding out what they had in common, how they differed, and if we could find any other external evidence that could back up the information they contained. This lesson really made an impression on me, and I think most of the others in the class. It definitely opened my eyes as to the accuracy of the average newspaper story!


Most assuredly in high school, though there its not a course of study, but rather interwoven throughout the curriculum.

I haven't been in college in a few years, either, but I get the feeling that's the case there now, too. When I was studying Critical Thinking in college oh, 10-12 years ago now, the program was under assault by the administration (one prof. I grew close to admitted that the college pres. was pretty serious about shutting them down entirely) and the reason was pretty clear: they were teaching us HOW to think, rather than WHAT to think. Virtually all of my other Liberal Arts classes were about teaching me what to think....

Of course, they were, even by that time, pretty good at camoflaging it through various pretty effective means of bias and slant and by means of subtle threats on your grades and financial aid. They couldn't go after my grades (I was getting my papers published and being invited to present them all over the country, after all) but they could--and did--"get" me through financial aid.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

At the risk of feeding into your therapy session AND of sounding like I am trying to be your dad, your new approach lacks something.

It sounds to me as if your parents were simply trying too hard to find something for you, and to live up to the expectations of our society (I am assuming you are American--or at least living in America). Yes, lots of parents are messing their kids up with all these extracurricular activities. Some kids take to it like a fish to water, others like a fish to a concrete sidewalk on a hot day.
Parents, by the way, are not perfect. Yours at least, appear to have had your best interests at heart.

Very lucky for you. You picked your parents fairly wisely.

Call it wisdom, if you will (though that will get me in trouble because I doubt very much my own wisdom and have already been told in here that I don't have any...not a surprise to me, that I don't, by the way).

Here is the reality of living and working (they go hand-in-hand, unless you are independently wealthy) in the real world: you will always be judged. Pre-work, judging by our peers matters not in the least. At college you are judged by your profs. on your ability to, often, regurgitate data, but in some cases, your ability to actually demonstrate understanding of the information.

Then you enter the work world (presumably). If you do so with the attitude you are expressing above (if not modified), you are in for a very, very tough time of it. Young people often enter the work world certain that the "fogeys" about them "just don't get it" and that they just need to "move aside" for the younger generations.

Maybe that's true. But the reality is (again, in general, mayhaps your dad or mom will get you on as a sr. VP where he works right out of college, I don't know) that those who've come before you in your chosen field, whether that's night stocking at Wal-Mart or brain surgery know things you do not, including how to get along in the business world.

I suggest that rather than rejecting wholesale what "they" (not your peers, keep in mind...for the most part your are safe in rejecting their criticisms) offer as criticism of just about everything you do for the first oh, 10 years or so, that you pay attention to it. As you mature and learn a profession you will of course learn what you CAN reject out of hand as petty, or jealousy or just stupidity. That's not saying you should let some "fogey" on the job at the print shop send you looking for the "striped ink," but I hope you take my meaning.

I think, if you adopt what you outline above, it's going to be many, many years before you'll find any sort of professional success (if ever) and will be very unhappy in your professional life, something that will spill over into your personal life.

Now, if you are in Old Europe (excluding GB) you can just laugh at this. If you are Asian...I have no idea how things work there, so you can dismiss it entirely. This is only "fatherly" advice if you are in America.

You are very much mistaken to take on the attitude that it only matters how YOU feel about YOU. Not in the work world, anyway. Probably not in your personal life, either. While it's a good idea to, as quickly as possible shed the High School Musical attitudes so many of us are saddled with (who is a geek, a nerd, a jock, a ______and where that puts them in the pecking order in that least important of places in all our life: high school), and while you read/hear/see much that says you should ignore others' criticisms of you you do so at your own peril. If a colleague on your first job suggests that wearing a t-shirt with Che on it to your job at an investment company is something of a policy no-no...you can reject that criticism based upon your "I do it MY way!" new attitude...and either get fired or never advance, certainly, or you can give that some thought and try to understand WHY that might not be welcome there.

In the end, you are gonna do what you are gonna do. But I'd take a very hard look at your above "new approach" to life before instituting it.

Your goal-setting approach, I like. Seems very rational and "doable." At 22, you should be setting some goal for "after school" too. Not "a billianaire by 40!" goals, but thngs more down to earth, like your grade improvement goal.

There would be something seriously wrong with you if, at 22, you were not frequently confused. Please stop paying attention to all the media you are bombarded with that tells you that at your age, you should be living in a mansion, driving a Ferarri, dating 6 supermodels and already retired to your own private island in the Caribean.

Um...for most of us, it does not work out that way, regardless of what all thes images in the media tell us. Funny, that. Just as for most of us we don't have the kinds of parents our media tells us all we should have: either horrific monsters or people who are our mentors and friends. Mostly, parents fall somewhere in the middle...muddling through the best they can, dealing with their own doubts about raising (you) on top of the same professional issues you will soon be facing.

Perhaps you should go to them with some of these questions, but if they are not the kind of people you can do that with (mine certainly weren't) then you might look to some other sources for such mentoring. Indeed, there are many actual Mentoring organizations out there.

And of course, now would be a good time to begin picking and choosing that advice you find most useful.

Tokie

[ponderingturtle]

I am multi-cultural, trilingual, and consider myself to be a person of slightly above average intelligence (115 IQ, nothing special). My whole life I have always felt as if the education system was letting me down; I was never challenged and easily lost interest in my classes even through honors classes in high school. I was bored with my homework and never did it but was able to do decent on exams (A- to B-/C+) considering I was never really paying attention.

As a result I got poor grades, had to go to the JC in my area, and am now at a mediocre college, where once again I am bored, not challenged, and wishing there was something out there for me.


This looks more like a lack of industriousness. If you where not challenged you would have been getting better grades.

Now overcoming personal tendencies for being basically lazy can be very difficult and it certainly has given me problems, but I do realize that it is my fault not the intuitions I attended.

Sure it might have helped if I had not been able to squeeze by with minimal effort, but I am not sure if that would have made me industrious or just fail out.

[genesplicer]

In addition to the books listed in the above posts, I would recommend the Foundation for Critical thinking. it has a web presence at critical thinking dot org. I have used their materials extensively in my own classes.

[Tokenconservative]

This looks more like a lack of industriousness. If you where not challenged you would have been getting better grades.

Now overcoming personal tendencies for being basically lazy can be very difficult and it certainly has given me problems, but I do realize that it is my fault not the intuitions I attended.

Sure it might have helped if I had not been able to squeeze by with minimal effort, but I am not sure if that would have made me industrious or just fail out.


Have to agree. My parents paid no attention at all to my schooling after about the 2nd grade, and since I came up in those halcyon, pre-testing, "liberal" social-laboratory days of the 60s and 70s, I pretty much did nothing from 3rd grade on, and still managed to graduate.

However, perhaps because of this, I recognize that it's a bit tougher to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps for some people than others. But this young man seems ot have had parents who were perhaps a bit overboard in the attention they paid to his education, but by his description were clearly "there" for him. I don't have any way of knowing what he's left unsaid, however.

One thing I can guarantee this young man: the quicker you either get an effective kick in the ass, or effectively kick yourSELF in the ass and start getting on with getting on, the better. The longer you spend wallowing in self-pity about a past you cannot change (and which he appears not to have taken advantage of...but there it is) and work toward making your own life better for you and YOUR family (since you will most likely have one one day) the better off you will be.

Or, you can assume, as do so many at this age (myself included) that any old fogey offering you such advice "just doesn't get it" and is stupid, anyway, and wind up 20-30 years from now kicking yourself for not kicking yourself 20 or 30 years ago.

Tokie

[SynapticDancer]

L2B22, you stated a goal of a 3.25 GPA, but can you think of a learning goal to correspond to that outcome?

I know that grades are important (I'm still a student myself), but I think we tend to loose focus on the fact that the way in which we go about earning a grade (and we do earn one, they are not bestowed upon us) is by learning.

So I ask you, what are some things you would like to learn? In any area you like, but try to think of some specifc things.

[SynapticDancer]

Tokenconservative (Tokie)

I agree that most younger people tend to reject the advise from the older-then-them as being outdated relics of a time gown by. I myself am still young, but I remember being 18 and thinking every teacher and adult I interacted with was an idiot and that I was the only one who truly understood things.

Needless to say I was wrong (although not all the time :D )

However, I think an important part of the experience is messing up and realizing that you, in fact, infallible and all-knowing.

To quote Epictetus, "It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows"

[LostAngeles]

L2B22 sounds like me but without the trilingualism and extra-curricular activities. My mom, whether being possessed of her own b.s. detector or as an offshoot of her ability to, "squeeze a nickel until it bled," as my grandfather (her father) put it, taught me to be skeptical of commercials and many brand names. If she did use a brand name, it was because she knew it was good stuff. Since she also taught me about propaganda and actually demonstrated FMS on my sister, it was probably the former more than the latter. She also had the good sense to let me figure stuff out on my own.

I also had a mediocre education for the most part and was able to easily slack through honors classes and pass. Many of my teachers felt it necessary to go through a half-hearted song and dance about why I should go to college. I did, and promptly flunked out.

It wasn't until I read Sagan's Demon Haunted World that I realized what I wanted to do. In the meantime, I moved to CA for other reasons, but was able to take advantage of their very good community college system and that the public universities of CA are required to pick their transfer students out of the CA community colleges first.

Like others have said, the best thing to do is to educate yourself. Hang out at the library or the bookstore and just read up on things you're interested in. Go to a section of stuff you're interested in, read a chapter or two, and if you like it, check it out/buy it and bring it home.

Hang out here and start/participate in threads. Ask questions and take into consideration the answers here. Being here is probably a good chunk of why I did so well in my Critical Thinking class: I was practicing here.

And if you want more social aspects of it, join the IRC channel (www.skepticsrock.com), hang out in Community, and keep an eye out for mention of any local events.

Oh, and it should go without saying: COME TO TAM.

[SynapticDancer]

And they say _I_ am caustic.....

A bit harsh, I think. Not entirely off the mark, but fails to take into account a number of things, especially what sociologists call "life chances." I don't know enough about the OP to speak intelligently, but if this is some smart kid in a very poor rural or inner-city (by the way: demographics suggest we are soon going to have to change the way we look at the "inner city" in this regard...'nother time) who has "mediocre" parents and is facing all the problems a public schools situation such as this provides, he may have a good reason to be whining.

I remember a guy I knew, grew up in a professional household (dad was a engineer, mom a banker--not a teller, the lady RAN the bank) in an upper-middle-class environment; good schooling, parents intently involved in and interested in their kids' educations and personal/emotional and social lives, etc., etc.

He used to rail for hours about those unable to "pick themselves up by their bootstraps" and get an MIT education just like he did...that his parents paid for.

Gee, yeah...good point.

Tokie

Good example, but can you think of one where a poor kid without these life chances you reference did go on to pursue an ivy league education?

I think there is a difference between picking yourself up by your bootstraps (which admittedly, is hard) and getting angry at the bootstraps for failing to pick you up.

And besides, maybe some time ago a persons fate was a bit harder to avoid if the circumstances prevented such mobility. Nowadays with the internet there is some much information at a persons fingertips it is not all that hard to learn anything (and everything) that you want to if you are willing to put in the time.

I think L2B22 is going to do just great in life, once he decides he wants to.

[LostAngeles]

...
And besides, maybe some time ago a persons fate was a bit harder to avoid if the circumstances prevented such mobility. Nowadays with the internet there is some much information at a persons fingertips it is not all that hard to learn anything (and everything) that you want to if you are willing to put in the time.
...

Yes, but now the question becomes getting that access to the poor kids, teaching them how to use the Internet and evaluate sources of information properly and keeping them off the P.o.S known as MySpace.

I'd talk about what I have seen on this matter, if I was entirely certain of what I was seeing. Due to forces I'm not entirely certain of, I won't have the chance to try and figure it out for another month or so, though.

[Tokenconservative]

Good example, but can you think of one where a poor kid without these life chances you reference did go on to pursue an ivy league education?

I think there is a difference between picking yourself up by your bootstraps (which admittedly, is hard) and getting angry at the bootstraps for failing to pick you up.

And besides, maybe some time ago a persons fate was a bit harder to avoid if the circumstances prevented such mobility. Nowadays with the internet there is some much information at a persons fingertips it is not all that hard to learn anything (and everything) that you want to if you are willing to put in the time.

I think L2B22 is going to do just great in life, once he decides he wants to.

We can all think of plenty of stories like that, but most of them have to do with "kid from poor background dun good."

This kid has othere issues, admittedly most of them apparently of his own making, though as I said, we don't have, and probably never will have the entire story dealing with his background.

A certain degree of anger isunderstandable in some cases. Walking a mile in someone else's moccasins is relative. It's too easy to look at a kid like the OP, never (apparently) really known real hardship (nobody ever raped and killed his mother in front of him and forced him to fight in their army when he was seven, to be sure...he probably never ate rat soup, etc.) and compare him to Nelson Mandela.

That's comparing apples and Russian farm tractors.

Let's compare him to something closer to him in his world. In those regards, he seems to be a whiner, from what I can tell. His life, as he describes it, and therefore his life-chances (and by the way "life-chances" is not "mine," but term used to describe/quantify real events used by sociologists and social psychologists) are much better than mine ever were, and I've done my share of bemoaning this, too.

Difference is, I never just rolled over and gave up as he appears to be doing.

I can't imagine how someone with his (described) background and current skillsets (literate in three languages?) couldn't do moderately well if he just stops whining, goes out there and starts DOING something.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Tokenconservative (Tokie)

I agree that most younger people tend to reject the advise from the older-then-them as being outdated relics of a time gown by. I myself am still young, but I remember being 18 and thinking every teacher and adult I interacted with was an idiot and that I was the only one who truly understood things.

Needless to say I was wrong (although not all the time :D )

However, I think an important part of the experience is messing up and realizing that you, in fact, infallible and all-knowing.

To quote Epictetus, "It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows"

Indeed.

And this less is one of the toughest things to learn; took me close to 50 years--but I am a late-Baby Boomer...lots in my cohort, older than me, have yet to learn it and are still being told by the popular media that in fact, they are "better" than the generations that came before them...and many of them believe it.

The rejection of the older generation's knowledge base, by the way, is an invention of the Baby Boom. Prior to that, what dad and grandpa and mom and grandma knew and wanted to pass on was generally respected. It's still the case in more traditional generations that elders are afforded places of great honor BECAUSE of the things they know and can teach their progeny, bettering the society as a whole. If each new generation has to learn entirely anew how to find roots and berries or hunt a gazelle, the society quickly gets eaten by hyennas.

Enter my g-geeeeneration. Our fathers and grandfather (never trust anyone over 30!) were protrayed as buffoonish clods who didn't have enough sense to pour rainwater out of their boots. The bumbling, clueless, half-witted male has, by the way, become a staple of modern American pop culture. You really can't identify a strong male figure on TV since about the early 70s. Today's TV male is an overweight, goofy moron whose thin, attractive wife and wise children best him intellectually at every turn.

It's one of the lasting legacies of my generation and one that has done much to damage our society as a whole, but especially to damage the role of men in our society (a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle) and especially in the lives of children.

I remember a time when a man in a grocery store, a stranger, was perfectly at home telling an unruly child to knock it off (and the kid did so). Can you imagine what would happen today? First, he'd be arrested for pedophelia. When it was determined that was not the case (2-3 years later) he'd be charged with assault, and then face multiple civil lawsuits by the child's "liberated" mother.

Tokie

[ponderingturtle]

You really can't identify a strong male figure on TV since about the early 70s. Today's TV male is an overweight, goofy moron whose thin, attractive wife and wise children best him intellectually at every turn.

That has to be the worst description of House I have ever seen.

You seem to be confused that there is more TV than a subset of sitcoms.

[ponderingturtle]

We can all think of plenty of stories like that, but most of them have to do with "kid from poor background dun good."

This kid has othere issues, admittedly most of them apparently of his own making, though as I said, we don't have, and probably never will have the entire story dealing with his background.

It doesn't matter if he made them or not. And if they resulted from his actions, but those actions stemmed from hightened anxiety or depression, then how much can that be held against them?

I just think that you can not blame a lack of challange as being the real cause for someones actions if they are not getting good grades. Sure I might have develped better study habbits if it was either sink or swim for me, but then again I might well have sunk.

As for not being challanged, well probably my best personal example of that was high school chemistry, when I would take to reading novels durring class. Still answered the questions correctly when asked by the teacher though. I paid attention to the new lectures and ignored the review that was not teaching me anything because I got it the first time.

Now did this lead to the problem I had with procrastinating and not working hard enough in college? Who knows. But it is certainly my willingness to get by with minimal effort that was the problem regardless of the causes. That and getting depressed and not going to class for a semester, that really is bad for a GPA.

[LostAngeles]

We can all think of plenty of stories like that, but most of them have to do with "kid from poor background dun good."

This kid has othere issues, admittedly most of them apparently of his own making, though as I said, we don't have, and probably never will have the entire story dealing with his background.

A certain degree of anger isunderstandable in some cases. Walking a mile in someone else's moccasins is relative. It's too easy to look at a kid like the OP, never (apparently) really known real hardship (nobody ever raped and killed his mother in front of him and forced him to fight in their army when he was seven, to be sure...he probably never ate rat soup, etc.) and compare him to Nelson Mandela.

That's comparing apples and Russian farm tractors.

Let's compare him to something closer to him in his world. In those regards, he seems to be a whiner, from what I can tell. His life, as he describes it, and therefore his life-chances (and by the way "life-chances" is not "mine," but term used to describe/quantify real events used by sociologists and social psychologists) are much better than mine ever were, and I've done my share of bemoaning this, too.

Difference is, I never just rolled over and gave up as he appears to be doing.

I can't imagine how someone with his (described) background and current skillsets (literate in three languages?) couldn't do moderately well if he just stops whining, goes out there and starts DOING something.

Tokie

Funny, I don't see him/her as rolling over and giving up.

Maybe it's the whole, "reaching out and asking for help," bit that gives me this impression. Maybe it's the lack of understanding as to the relative magnitude of personal problems.

Believe me, when someone is down because of x, y, and z, telling them they don't have it so bad because you suffered from a, b, and c, all of which is worse, just makes the person more miserable. Now, not only are they unhappy, they're weak and a pussy and really, just a drain on everything.

We all have our own mountains to climb and while some of us are able to climb higher and rockier ones than others, that doesn't mean the others are just, "whiners," right off the bat.

No one who makes an attempt is a little bitch.

But if you'd like to get into a, "life chances,"/childhood trauma dick size war, head on over to Community. I've got 5-1 odds of you losing.

[Tokenconservative]

Funny, I don't see him/her as rolling over and giving up.

Maybe it's the whole, "reaching out and asking for help," bit that gives me this impression. Maybe it's the lack of understanding as to the relative magnitude of personal problems.

Believe me, when someone is down because of x, y, and z, telling them they don't have it so bad because you suffered from a, b, and c, all of which is worse, just makes the person more miserable. Now, not only are they unhappy, they're weak and a pussy and really, just a drain on everything.

We all have our own mountains to climb and while some of us are able to climb higher and rockier ones than others, that doesn't mean the others are just, "whiners," right off the bat.

No one who makes an attempt is a little bitch.

But if you'd like to get into a, "life chances,"/childhood trauma dick size war, head on over to Community. I've got 5-1 odds of you losing.

Wow. I guess I was not clear at all. I guess I did overstate the OPs position of rolling over and giving up, I guess reaching out for help is a measure of the opposite.

I don't know where you got the idea I am one of those "everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps!" types...that's not at all what I believe, or intended.

Everyone DOES have different circumstances, which is why I noted that these things are relative. We here in the US, really cannot compare ourselves to some African, say, and say "well what are YOU bitching about!? Look at that poor kid in Africa!"

I don't buy that. Thing are relative, and what I hear from the OP is that he's whining (--you call it bitching, same thing; yes, we all do that and many of us have a right to--I laugh at a Paris Hilton whining about her lot in life, but not at some kid like this) about his lot in life and as another poster noted, looking for someone else to bail him out.

Many of us tend to do that, too. I am guilty of it and was for most of my adult life, based in my cultural paradigm, but also associated more deeply to what was (or more pointedly, was NOT) instilled in me by my parents.

We have too little data from the OP to condemn or laud his parents. What we know is that they SEEM to have been very involved in his education. Good! Nothing wrong with that. But somewhere else, it seems, he feels the train went off the rails.

I'd have to know a lot more before I can say anything about that.

I can only work with what he's give us, and from that, he seems a pretty normal young person of his age, a bit confused about where he's going in life, but who SEEMS to have had the support of his parents to this point, anyway.

Something a lot of us never had.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

It doesn't matter if he made them or not. And if they resulted from his actions, but those actions stemmed from hightened anxiety or depression, then how much can that be held against them?

I just think that you can not blame a lack of challange as being the real cause for someones actions if they are not getting good grades. Sure I might have develped better study habbits if it was either sink or swim for me, but then again I might well have sunk.

As for not being challanged, well probably my best personal example of that was high school chemistry, when I would take to reading novels durring class. Still answered the questions correctly when asked by the teacher though. I paid attention to the new lectures and ignored the review that was not teaching me anything because I got it the first time.

Now did this lead to the problem I had with procrastinating and not working hard enough in college? Who knows. But it is certainly my willingness to get by with minimal effort that was the problem regardless of the causes. That and getting depressed and not going to class for a semester, that really is bad for a GPA.

Indeed. It's a tough nut to crack in our culture where on the one side we are encouraged to be rugged individualists, while on the other side our culture throws more "blame it on _____" at us than we can absorb. All of us can find someone in our life on whom we can legitimately blame some issue that we feel has negatively impacted us. Perception may nullify some or all of that, or we may even be underselling the blame due to the competing cultural message of rugged individualism.

If you want to see the personification (cartoonization) of this in a TV personality, look to the Butters character on South Park. He is hammered from all sides: parents, friends, school, society in general, hell...the local wildlife rips into this kid every once in a while. But he blames...well, Butters!

Lots of things are bad for GPA. I "neglected" to drop a class or two and then just stopped going. This lowered mine from what it should've been, up around 4.00 to something around the mid 3.50 range. So be it. Life goes on.

Usually.

It's also unlikely that someone visiting a forum like this is a dummy, and people of above-average intellect when not sufficiently challenged/recognized for this tend to get depressed. Often, in school, this is viewed by teachers who are themselves not the sharpest tool in the shed, as a kid who is "special." I recall a teacher telling my parents I could not read. She arrived at that conclusion because during reading aloud sessions, I'd be 20 pages ahead and when called on to read, had to shuffle back through the book to find out where the kids who had trouble with big words like "and" and "but" were in the book. Rather than taking the moment or two it would've to figure out what was REALLY going on, she told my parents I couldn't read. Now, giving my parents their due, since I was reading things like Animal Farm and All Quiet on the Western Front at home at the time (6th grade) they dismissed it and just told me to try and "keep up" (meaning, slow down).

It's a problem, and one this young man would do well to begin addressing NOW, using some of the help in here, but perhaps, if he's able, seeking some professional advice: school guidance councelors, a trusted prof., maybe even the school mental health center if they have one--he should try to avoid free psychoanlysis on the web...I always find my own experiences with that to be well worth the cost.

He's young and has a helluva leg up on me at that age: he has recognized that there is an issue here he needs to address.

I wish him the best.

Tokie

[LostAngeles]

Wow. I guess I was not clear at all. I guess I did overstate the OPs position of rolling over and giving up, I guess reaching out for help is a measure of the opposite.

I don't know where you got the idea I am one of those "everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps!" types...that's not at all what I believe, or intended.

Everyone DOES have different circumstances, which is why I noted that these things are relative. We here in the US, really cannot compare ourselves to some African, say, and say "well what are YOU bitching about!? Look at that poor kid in Africa!"

I don't buy that. Thing are relative, and what I hear from the OP is that he's whining (--you call it bitching, same thing; yes, we all do that and many of us have a right to--I laugh at a Paris Hilton whining about her lot in life, but not at some kid like this) about his lot in life and as another poster noted, looking for someone else to bail him out.

Many of us tend to do that, too. I am guilty of it and was for most of my adult life, based in my cultural paradigm, but also associated more deeply to what was (or more pointedly, was NOT) instilled in me by my parents.

We have too little data from the OP to condemn or laud his parents. What we know is that they SEEM to have been very involved in his education. Good! Nothing wrong with that. But somewhere else, it seems, he feels the train went off the rails.

I'd have to know a lot more before I can say anything about that.

I can only work with what he's give us, and from that, he seems a pretty normal young person of his age, a bit confused about where he's going in life, but who SEEMS to have had the support of his parents to this point, anyway.

Something a lot of us never had.

Tokie

Dude, What the Everloving ****.

You post, I respond, you come back with a post that clarifies things in such a way that it turns out you aren't half the jackass you came off as in the original post.

What we need to do is skip those first two posts and just get to the good stuff. :D

I apologize that I keep misconstruing you, but from talking to other folks, it seems I'm not the only one.

Oy!

[ponderingturtle]

Indeed. It's a tough nut to crack in our culture where on the one side we are encouraged to be rugged individualists, while on the other side our culture throws more "blame it on _____" at us than we can absorb. All of us can find someone in our life on whom we can legitimately blame some issue that we feel has negatively impacted us. Perception may nullify some or all of that, or we may even be underselling the blame due to the competing cultural message of rugged individualism.

My main points about the OP, are

1. I don't find his claim of not being challenged totally credible, if he was really not challenged he would have gotten good grades
2. I don't think it really matters how much is his innate tendencies to just get by and not work to excel, vs environment. I also am not sure that determining what caused the situation matters. It is his problem now, and getting used to hard work is the solution. Now how attainable that is, that is a different issue.

Lots of things are bad for GPA. I "neglected" to drop a class or two and then just stopped going. This lowered mine from what it should've been, up around 4.00 to something around the mid 3.50 range. So be it. Life goes on.

Not a class, class in general. All of them those semesters.


It's also unlikely that someone visiting a forum like this is a dummy, and people of above-average intellect when not sufficiently challenged/recognized for this tend to get depressed. Often, in school, this is viewed by teachers who are themselves not the sharpest tool in the shed, as a kid who is "special." I recall a teacher telling my parents I could not read. She arrived at that conclusion because during reading aloud sessions, I'd be 20 pages ahead and when called on to read, had to shuffle back through the book to find out where the kids who had trouble with big words like "and" and "but" were in the book. Rather than taking the moment or two it would've to figure out what was REALLY going on, she told my parents I couldn't read. Now, giving my parents their due, since I was reading things like Animal Farm and All Quiet on the Western Front at home at the time (6th grade) they dismissed it and just told me to try and "keep up" (meaning, slow down).

Ah that is nothing, I really couldn't read. I came across a test from the first grade when I was really identified as learning disabled. I scored in the 30% in reading and grammar, in the 95+% in math, reasoning and vocabulary. Those where my scores(more or less) nothing in between well below average and way above average.

I also had trouble focusing in classes, in sixth grade in a class of 7 students with a teacher and teachers aid, the most effective way to get me to do my individualized work program was to have me sitting next to the teacher so I did not distract myself and stayed focused. So starting and working largely by myself is not a new problem for me, and one I am well familiar with.

[Ben Tilly]

My main points about the OP, are
1. I don't find his claim of not being challenged totally credible, if he was really not challenged he would have gotten good grades
2. I don't think it really matters how much is his innate tendencies to just get by and not work to excel, vs environment. I also am not sure that determining what caused the situation matters. It is his problem now, and getting used to hard work is the solution. Now how attainable that is, that is a different issue.

I disagree with the first point, big time. School has a lot of busywork. If you don't do that busywork, you get bad grades, no matter how capable you are of doing it. And sometimes, no matter how capable you are, if you skip class long enough you're going to get behind and have a hard time catching up.

This I'm familiar with because I nearly failed grade 12. The only reason I didn't fail grade 12 is that my English lit 12 teacher gave us a practice test for the provincials (in BC, by law, many courses have a province wide test that you have to pass in grade 12), and I was the best in the class. He thought it absurd that his best student was going to fail his class, and worked out a deal for a bunch of my classes where I'd basically get 6 months to catch up on homework. I did, passed all of my provincials and went on. I don't like to think what would have happened to me without that intervention.

Is that unusual? Apparently not. In an article that I read recently, a very large fraction of students whose IQ is in the top 2% wind up dropping out of highschool. I forget the exact percentage, but it was much higher than the general population.

But now that he's in the boat, what next? Well it is possible to recover. I know I did. I went to university, and now have a good life. (I liked university a lot more than highschool.) However it is also possible to not recover. And lots of people who are far more gifted than he is never do recover.

His personal future may be in his control. But as a society, I think we are shortchanging ourselves by not putting more energy into identifying and helping gifted people.

[Tokenconservative]

My main points about the OP, are

1. I don't find his claim of not being challenged totally credible, if he was really not challenged he would have gotten good grades
2. I don't think it really matters how much is his innate tendencies to just get by and not work to excel, vs environment. I also am not sure that determining what caused the situation matters. It is his problem now, and getting used to hard work is the solution. Now how attainable that is, that is a different issue.

Not a class, class in general. All of them those semesters.

Ah that is nothing, I really couldn't read. I came across a test from the first grade when I was really identified as learning disabled. I scored in the 30% in reading and grammar, in the 95+% in math, reasoning and vocabulary. Those where my scores(more or less) nothing in between well below average and way above average.

I also had trouble focusing in classes, in sixth grade in a class of 7 students with a teacher and teachers aid, the most effective way to get me to do my individualized work program was to have me sitting next to the teacher so I did not distract myself and stayed focused. So starting and working largely by myself is not a new problem for me, and one I am well familiar with.

1. Einstein flunked math because he was not challenged...

So yes, it does matter. I flunked classes all the time because I was bored to tears--reference what I said about my experince reading--and hadn't the personal discipline (this comes from the home) to figure out how to overcome this. I'm not claiming any genius status here; you only have to be slightly above mediocre to be above the norm in a public school; regardless of their shrill protestations to the contrary, public schools do not teach to even the middle, but to the lower end kids because they are the ones that cause the most disruptions, and tend to be the ones whose parents cause the most trouble.

The problems this generates are immense. I was tagged with a "dummy" record starting in 3rd grade (I arrived at school late that year with no prep from home and, apparently no one at the school actually KNOWING I had not been there for the first 3 weeks--VERY crowded classes...I think my math class had 40 kids in a room designed for 25). When teachers would find out that um...no, that's not the case (I excelled in reading, writing, history,geography and science to a certain level) and that in fact I was often more knowlegable and more talented than they, it would cause huge problems, as well. I believe it's different now in US public schools, in general, but not entirely so. It is still largely up to the parents to recognize "gifted" or other such level in their child and DO something. The schools will not move on their own.

2. It's always good to investigate and recognize where such problems arise from in order to understand them and thereby combat them. From MY persepctive, the OP sounds to be in the cat bird's seat in this regard. Yes, we are in our culture ( I am assuming you are USian?) dichotomously told to "suck it up" even as Oprah and Jenny and well...that's all the names I really know, tell us to find someone to blame our problems on. I agree one must address one's own problems once identified, in adulthood, but that you can't do that without first finding the source of those problems.

Agreed: nobody else is going to fix this for the OP, but I believe his post in here is evidence that he's recognizing the problem (and at 22 that's very, very good) and reaching out for help wherever he can.

Scores: yes, mine were just the opposite. I sucked terribly at math (cause: probably equal parts how it was taught and aptitude--today I am moderately good at it, but had to teach myself), but excelled in reading and writing to the point where I was constantly being acused of stealing my writing from published sources...as early as the 6th grade, which also went into my "permanent record" to follow me all through school, causing me to be viewed with suspicion in every class. Of course, this was unbeknowst to me until much later. I was a very naive kid...I had no idea in hell what was going on when I would turn in what even today, I can look at and say "not a bad little piece of fiction--a bit purple, perhaps..." and have it come back to me from the teacher with a solid "C" because while they could not identify the source, and assumed I'd changed some of the words (you'd think a professional educator could tell the difference, but these were very, very ignorant people) it was assumed I'd lifted it somewhere. Unlike the OP, my parents...had their own problems and never dealt with this.

It WAS by the way, a different age, too. Teachers were very respected by parents and their word that of God for most students. I as no different. I assumed at the time that I was stupid.

Teachers in general were (and still are...remember where MOST teachers come from) so threatened by someone like me, whose record says "dummy" but who demonstrates higher level skills in some areas-- because they simply had no pedagological approach in those days. Much has been accomplished since oh, the early 80s driven by caring parents, to FORCE the dummies in front of the class and their bosses to deal with this sort of situation.

In math, even back in the day, they could always just assign higher and higher levels. My older brother is a math whiz, and this is exactly what they did for him. Their fix for me was this: in 8th grade languag arts/writing the teacher sat me in a corner by myself and told me to "write whatever you want." I virtually never saw the teacher again.

THAT, my friend, is "independent study.

In the 10 grade one of my teachers, a striving writer himself, actually stole one of my short stories and tried to get it published under his name. And yes...I know how that sounds...but that is, nonetheless, what happened.

You were not working by yourself. In fact, just the opposite. In essence, you were being privately tutored, if I am reading this correctly. Good for you, by the way, but don't mischaracterize it.

And by the way...in TODAY's world (and begining in the one I grew up in) a solid ability in math is far, FAR more important than being able to read and write. One of my children has written three complete novels (first one completed, age 12). These are not Aragorn(and if you read those books, and don't recognize where that kid's publishing house editor mother "assisted" you do indeed have problems with your reading), but they are not half-bad. She writes opera and symphonies, too. This is amazing to me and I heartily encourage it. But I also pound into her head the importance of math, for which she has much less interest and aptitude. Today, so long's you can get by in reading, and in some cases writing, you'll do okay. If you suck at math (or worse, both) you are really skroood.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Dude, What the Everloving ****.

You post, I respond, you come back with a post that clarifies things in such a way that it turns out you aren't half the jackass you came off as in the original post.

What we need to do is skip those first two posts and just get to the good stuff. :D

I apologize that I keep misconstruing you, but from talking to other folks, it seems I'm not the only one.

Oy!


Not sure if I should be flattered or afraid...very afraid, that I am the topic of water cooler conversations in here.....

Oh, well. I always wanted to be the "popular" kid!

I can be a bit...caustic.

And cocksure. And hell...let's call a spade a spade: a bloviating jackass.

There, I've said it, it's out!

Sure, I'm all for starting afresh.

Where in all the many thousands (now) of words I've posted on this topic have I left you cofused?

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

I disagree with the first point, big time. School has a lot of busywork. If you don't do that busywork, you get bad grades, no matter how capable you are of doing it. And sometimes, no matter how capable you are, if you skip class long enough you're going to get behind and have a hard time catching up.

This I'm familiar with because I nearly failed grade 12. The only reason I didn't fail grade 12 is that my English lit 12 teacher gave us a practice test for the provincials (in BC, by law, many courses have a province wide test that you have to pass in grade 12), and I was the best in the class. He thought it absurd that his best student was going to fail his class, and worked out a deal for a bunch of my classes where I'd basically get 6 months to catch up on homework. I did, passed all of my provincials and went on. I don't like to think what would have happened to me without that intervention.

Is that unusual? Apparently not. In an article that I read recently, a very large fraction of students whose IQ is in the top 2% wind up dropping out of highschool. I forget the exact percentage, but it was much higher than the general population.

But now that he's in the boat, what next? Well it is possible to recover. I know I did. I went to university, and now have a good life. (I liked university a lot more than highschool.) However it is also possible to not recover. And lots of people who are far more gifted than he is never do recover.

His personal future may be in his control. But as a society, I think we are shortchanging ourselves by not putting more energy into identifying and helping gifted people.

I guess being attached at the hip to the US has worse consequences than your getting FOX News....

Seems your education system has adopted some of the bad from ours. My kids (first couple of years in a public school) complain constantly about the slow pace, the ridiculous amounts of busywork and the lack of challenge in many of their classes.

Giving the publics their due, they work with what they have, but that said, much of the reason they have what they have (students) is because they've trained these kids over the years to work at these low-expectation, high-disruption, little-actual-learning levels. It's an amazing feedback loop to look at.

The only reason I passed most of the time from 2nd grade on was because the teachers did not want me back the next year. Not because I was burning the place down, but because they had no idea in hell how to deal with me.

Good for you b-t-w on that 12 grade experience. I wish I'd had just ONE teacher throughout my public school career who'd had balls the size that guys must be.

What IS unusual is that teacher. Hope you treated him to a beer.

Your last statement is dead on. Lots and lots of very, very smart people are damaged first by parents (some in here would say they should've picked better ones!) then by a school system that exacerbates problems at home by assuring students who are understandably distracted by family issues, that on top of that, they are stupid too.

What happens to many such people is they end up blaming the school social atmosphere for this...for years, when the problem lies in the ADULT community around them, not in the other kids around them. Yeah, social life in high school can be brutal, to be sure, but when you also have teachers adding to those pressures through their laziness and ignorant assumptions, it can't help but exacerbate your academic problems.

Tokie

[Ben Tilly]

1. Einstein flunked math because he was not challenged...

This is an urban legend. Persistent myths to the contrary notwithstanding, Einstein did very well in math.

[Tokenconservative]

This is an urban legend. Persistent myths to the contrary notwithstanding, Einstein did very well in math.


Really?

Well, urban legends aboud...so I guess what you are saying is the very logical: because Einstein was very bright and did not flunk math, then every other kid who is bright does not flunk, by definition?

Hmmm. Interesting.

Tokie

[LostAngeles]

Really?

Well, urban legends aboud...so I guess what you are saying is the very logical: because Einstein was very bright and did not flunk math, then every other kid who is bright does not flunk, by definition?

Hmmm. Interesting.

Tokie

No. That there is some x(a kid, namely Einstein) that is y(bright) and not z(flunking math) is not logically equivalent to for all x(kids) that are y(bright) does not z(flunking math).

[Tokenconservative]

No. That there is some x(a kid, namely Einstein) that is y(bright) and not z(flunking math) is not logically equivalent to for all x(kids) that are y(bright) does not z(flunking math).

Umm...yes, I know. Apparently fascetiousness is wasted in here.

I'll have to remember that as fascetious comments make up about 20% of my total...

Tokie

[Ben Tilly]

Really?

Well, urban legends aboud...so I guess what you are saying is the very logical: because Einstein was very bright and did not flunk math, then every other kid who is bright does not flunk, by definition?

Hmmm. Interesting.

Tokie

You're reacting to something that I did not say, imply, mean to say, or mean to imply. My only point was that you had a misconception about Einstein. I did not say, in any way shape or form, that there aren't intelligent people who have trouble with school. Jumping to the conclusion that I thought that was a logical fallacy on your part.

In fact in another post in this thread I pointed out that gifted children are more likely than average to drop out of school. And mentioned my own troubles in that regard. Which would suggest that yes, I'm aware that intelligent people can have trouble in school.

[Tokenconservative]

You're reacting to something that I did not say, imply, mean to say, or mean to imply. My only point was that you had a misconception about Einstein. I did not say, in any way shape or form, that there aren't intelligent people who have trouble with school. Jumping to the conclusion that I thought that was a logical fallacy on your part.

In fact in another post in this thread I pointed out that gifted children are more likely than average to drop out of school. And mentioned my own troubles in that regard. Which would suggest that yes, I'm aware that intelligent people can have trouble in school.

Ok. I guess I misread you.

We are on the same page, then.

Tokie