Ethical Dilemma

[Mike Drisco]

?

[calladus]

You can legally suggest that your jewlery has extra special properties - I can legally hold you as an example of someone who will mislead for money. If you did this, you would end up as a possible paragraph in Randi's commentary, and as a warning on Quackwatch - you would also probably increase your income.

Note that there are professional stage magicians (Randi, Penn & Teller) who could go from famous and moderatly wealthy to superstart status with multi-million dollar yearly incomes if they decided to lie about what they do. It wouldn't even be a big lie, it could just be a 'suggestion'.

Take for example one psychic who is fooling himself, and compare him to a psychic who is working the crowd with full knowledge that it's a charade. The first psychic is pitiful, the second is despicable.

Some things just ain't worth the money - being able to look at yourself in the mirror, or to get a good night's sleep is worth a lot.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Mike Drisco
But you know, I'm trying to maximize my income and am tempted to include some of that magentic healing power stuff to my pitch. Not something over the top but just something about "many people believe in the healing properties of magnetism" or "thousands of people use magnets to control pain" but I would also want to include a disclaimer like "Not sold as a medical device".


Great question Mike!

I believe that as long as you clearly state that you don't intend your jewelry as any form of medical treatment, you mention that there is no or little evidence, etc., to consult a doctor before trying any treatment, etc., then you are OK in doing that. However, ...

You might want to advertise the magnetic property another way, such as "You can always find it. Just leave it on your fridge!" (but actually make it sound good :) ), or say something like "Some people have claimed that magnetic jewelry has healing powers. I'm not sure about that (see disclaimer!) but I do know that they do look good!", or whatever.

I'd probably stress other reasons why you decided to use magnets in your jewelry. Perhaps the jewelry are less likely to fall apart because of the magnetism? (I dunno)

You could design a metal jewelry tree, so the people can put their jewelry on it, and it would always stay on the tree, because of magnetism, and they would be less likely to misplace it or have a pet knock it under the bed. :)

[American]

Keep doing what you're doing, be honest with everyone, and start taking little steps to change careers (or at least your general sales focus). You can do better. ;)



... One way is to follow my 10 Easy Steps to a Better Life. I will send them to you for just 3 payments of $19.95 plus shipping. Act now, and I will also send you my 10 Simple Tips on Not Being a Jackass who Sells Incredibly Stupid Sh-t for a Living.... for FREE!

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[Questioninggeller]

I'll have to think about it and write back later.

[Eos of the Eons]

Hey, as long as you don't tout them as actually having any kind of healing properties, have at it. If those that DO believe are then more prone to buy it, then it's buyer beware as usual. Just advertising the fact that they are magnetic will draw these people anyway. You don't really want someone to start looking into it seriously because of your product though, right? Ah well, they would have heard about magnets and their supposed healing properties any way.

Problem is-if they were actually as stong as to affect the supposedly affectable iron in the blood, then your blood cells would burst . Thank goodness that magnets have no effect on our bodies! They would be deadly, not beneficial. Have you tried to use those magnets sold as healing products to try to stick a piece of paper on the fridge? It's very sad indeed how weak they truly are!

Why is the jewelry magnetic? How is it magnetic?

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Mike Drisco
But you know, I'm trying to maximize my income and am tempted to include some of that magentic healing power stuff to my pitch. Not something over the top but just something about "many people believe in the healing properties of magnetism" or "thousands of people use magnets to control pain" but I would also want to include a disclaimer like "Not sold as a medical device".
No, I dont like that approach.

Even with the disclaimer, you are still being suggestive and decievingly influencial. Philosopher Yahweh says the Ethics of using your approach are not good.

Heres a related example of how being suggestive has led to widespread ignorance:
You've heard people say "The odds of a stand of DNA forming by chance is more than 10^40,000:1. The only way DNA could have even a conceivable chance is if there were an intelligent supreme being designing DNA". Yes, while it may be true that DNA forming by chance alone is quite improbable, it is deliberately decieving because DNA doesnt form by chance alone, its a combination of chance and the laws of physics. (Source: http://skepdic.com/intelligentdesign.html)

Yet somehow, people still take in intelligent design for some reason. I dont think its very ethical to decieve people for profit.

So my question is "How far would you go?".
1. If people insist on being stupid then you should insist on playing on their weaknesses.
Absolutely not. I dont take advantage of others for profit. If anything, stupidity and ignorance are terrible diseases, but thankfully they are curable.

2. Hint at healing properties but don't just come out and claim the miraculous. (like my proposal above)
Not as bad as the above, but I still dont suggest it.

3. Sell them as objects of beauty only.
Jewelry has absolutely no applicable purpose, yet people buy it all the time. Dont try to sugar up your useless product, let people buy it at their own accord. I suggest option #3.

[Dymanic]

Mike, I don't think you have 'the right stuff' to be a snakeoil salesman -- that this is a moral dilemma for you at all is evidence of this.

"This above all: to thine own self be true; and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man".

[Yahzi]

Originally posted by Mike Drisco
I.I'm trying to maximize my income and am tempted to include some of that magentic healing power stuff to my pitch.
Why not just kick them in the face and steal their wallets while they are bleeding? It's morally pretty much the same.

A lie by omission is still a lie.

[coalesce]

Stick with #3. You'll sleep better at night.

Michael

[Kevin_Lowe]

I couldn't live with myself if I deceived people for a bit of extra pocket change that I didn't really need.

But then, I value a clear conscience very highly. I'd just rather not be the kind of person who did that.

I would be tempted though. :)

I guess many skeptics have thought at one time or another "Hey, these woo-woo people are not only morons, they're annoying. They don't want to be rational. They get angry when you try to tell them rational things. Why shouldn't I make a fast buck out of them? They'll only give their money to some other scumbag if I don't take it".

I think it says something good about skeptics that so few turn to the dark side, even when they have become experts on how the sheep can be fleeced.

But I think I should stop before I start giving people ideas. :D

[Dancing David]

The disclaimers are good, but I wouldn't be able to do it myself.

[Dymanic]

Maybe you could research medicinal uses of magnets and provide results proving their ineffectiveness, placing strong emphasis on the lack of evidence supporting any such notion. For the type of person who goes for this sort of thing, this seems to have the odd effect of strengthening their belief. I would say that that would leave you entirely off the hook, and probably increase your sales at the same time.

[Eos of the Eons]

Originally posted by Dymanic
Maybe you could research medicinal uses of magnets and provide results proving their ineffectiveness, placing strong emphasis on the lack of evidence supporting any such notion. For the type of person who goes for this sort of thing, this seems to have the odd effect of strengthening their belief. I would say that that would leave you entirely off the hook, and probably increase your sales at the same time.

:D

[ebola]

Mike,

I, too, would like to maximize my income. However, I would not be able to do so by committing fraud. While it would be fine to mention that the jewelry has magnetic clasps, or uses magnetism to hold itself on your body, it would be unethical to use the unfounded claims of medical benefits to bolster your sales. This includes stating that others believe it and then disavowing it, as you are planting that seed, so to speak.

Inevitably, I am sure that you have customers who ask you about the healing powers of magnets, to which I would make a reply such as:

"Can you believe that in this day and age that there are still some people gullible enough to swallow that?"

Sure you may lose a customer here or there, but you may gain a few who appreciate your honesty.

Eric

[coalesce]

Instead of drawing attention to the perceived healing power of magnets, perhaps try mentioning it once in a roundabout way and not bringing it up again. Something like, "Of all of the magnet's properties, the one that's undeniable is its beauty." Then go on with the rest of the sales spiel about its beauty, timelessness, uniqueness, whatever else you want. But don't mention the healing. Don't mention it, people won't think of it. "Under the radar," that's my mottto.

Michael

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I think Dymanic's got it. Why not advertise:

"My magnetic bracelets have none of that absurd healing power that so many other people tout. What a bunch of frauds. Buy my bracelets for their beauty and practicality."

~~ Paul

[ebola]

Mike,

When you start your pitch off with:

"Many people believe magnets are useful for pain reduction or to promote healing.


you are lending credence to it, despite the fact that you are following it with:

I MAKE NO SUCH CLAIM

While it may be legal, it isn't right, because the credulous will believe there is the possibility of medical benefit. Your refutation will not register in their minds. It is no different than telling a senior citzen that he "probably doesn't need a hearing aid now, but these new models are on sale."

Paul presents a reasonable marketing slogan. Rather than your pitch, you might try something like:

The magnets in this jewelry will have no medical benefit when it is worn.

As for your other arguments, the popualtion at large is generally aware that a diet consisting primarily of Big Macs is by and large unhealthy. They are also aware that smoking will shorten their lives and make the last years less enjoyable, yet a sizable segment continues to smoke.

Thankfully, my wife doesn't want any more clear rocks. We are both well aware that it is just a rock.

There is more to a vehicle than engine specs. Things of interest in the ads can and do include seating capacity, cargo capacity, towing capacity, style, convenience, fuel economy, etc. Besides, given the huge choice of personal transportation, they are hardly defrauding anyone.

Eric

[arcticpenguin]

Do you want to be able to sleep at night?

Why not go with a totally opposite approach: This jewelry has no medical properties, so you don't have to worry about side effects If you want to compromise your integrity just a little bit, you could include a list of side effects your non-medical jewelry does not cause.

Oh, and just for an inside laugh: somewhere in the ad refer to the jewelry as bright.

[Dymanic]

Originally posted by Mike Drisco

It seems that I am being held to a higher standard than other merchants.
I agree. It is then pertinent to ask, "By whom?"

For the answer to that question, see my first response above.

[MRC_Hans]

No matter how many disclaimers you make, why would you mention possible magic powers? To boost your sales. Why might i boost your sales? Because gullible people would believe in the crap. Where would that put you? As a fraud and a quack who didn't even have the guts to say it worked.

Honesty does not come in degrees; either you are honest, or not. Don't be a fraud and a quack. There are better ways to make money.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Mike Drisco
[QUOTE] There are better ways to make money.[QUOTE]

Yes there are better ways to make money - inheriting it comes to mind.

Perhaps you people who are convinced that I am being dishonest even after making an explicit disclaimer and should seek another line of work would consider telling me how you make money and how your product or service is advertised.

I work as a quality engineer in a medical company. Our main product is insulin. It is advertized according to relevant laws about advertizing medical products.

Yes, I could sleep at night with the disclaimer stated above. If people insist on ignoring it what can I do about it? I am not selling babysitting services.

By pointing out that "many people believe" you are inviting people to believe it too. And since you expect it to boost your sales, you are counting on it to happen. Thus you expect to make money on gullible people, period.

I hope that one or two of you out there realize that I am truly concerned about not advancing crackpot claims. And honestly I could leave the disclaimer out entirely and probably not get sued because I never said that the jewelry had any medical benefits. But I don't want to do that because in my opinion that crosses the line of moral deception. All of us have different lines.

The magnets in your jewellery have a practical purpose. By simply not claiming ANYTHING, you leave it to people to make their own conclusions. This is perfectly OK, but it would not boost your sales, and you specifically stated in your opening post that you wanted to make the "some people belive" statement to boost your sales.

If people choose not to do the independent research I suggest then they can only blame themselves. No? I believe I have surpassed the doctrine of Caveat Emptor.

How would it boost your sales, unless.....?

Some of the comments I'm getting seen to characterize my proposed advertising as if it were the moral equivalent to the most outrageous claim I could possibly make - one where I could perhaps make millions by utilizing offshore corporations and hiring the "best" lawyers to tie up the courts for a long long time and launder any profits to there is nothing recoverable. But this is another route I have no interest in taking.

Nonsense. The comments are just that if you boost your sales by hinting at magic effects, then, in spite of your disclaimer, you are making money on gullible people. If you can sleep with that, fine (it is not as if you are robbing them of a fortune, after all), but you asked for opinions, and my opinion is that you will not be innocent. Live with it.

I am not a con artist but I see no moral dilemma about McDonalds selling "Happy Meals" to fat people either.

No, but what if they advertized: "Some people believe that you can reduce your weight by eating Happy Meals. We don't have any evidence for this, so we encourage you to make your own investigations" :rolleyes:

Thanks for all of your responses. I am listening and taking your opinions into consideration so far my line is only in the sand.

Good luck!

Hans

[fishbait]

From your post, it's obvious that you have already made up your mind to include this questionable information in your sales pitch to "maximize my income." Asking the question "how far would you go" is just a way of seeking approval for this scam and legitimizing what you know to be deceptive.

What a load of crap. There is no ethical dilemma here. Either you are going to take advantage of people for the sake of a buck or you are not. Your post is a poor attempt at appearing to take the 'high road' when all you want is to cash in on the scam without the appearance of being a conspiritor.

I don't see an " ethical dilemma" here. I see an honosty issue.

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Mike Drisco

I don't think your hands are any cleaner than mine. But nice try.
If you are completely at ease with your actions, why did you open a thread called "Ethical Dilemma"? I am starting to get the impression that you were just trolling for a reaction so that you could condemn it.

[roger]

Originally posted by Mike Drisco
I don't think your hands are any cleaner than mine. But nice try. [/B]
Faulty logic. The cleanliness of Hans' hands are not relevant to the question of your ethics.

[Michael Redman]

By stating that many people believe it, you are stating that there is reason to believe. Sure, an appeal to popularity is a logically false claim of truth, but it is a claim, nevertheless. Stating that you are not yourself making the claim is completely disingenuous. You are making the claim that others believe it is true, and by implication that there is therefore reason to believe it is true.

If you didn't want to give the impression that the product has qualities that you know it doesn't have, you wouldn't be telling prospective customers that people believed it had those qualities. Considering your intent, in my opinion what you propose doing might very well be illegal. I could certainly see taking a civil case as a plaintiff's attorney in similar circumstances.

[Gulliamo]

I'ma gonna say number 3.

You could give us samples and we could all post on your "Satisfied Customers" link that

"I got this product and received absolutely no medical benifits or side effects at all! This product works EXACTLY as advertised!"

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Mike Drisco
*snip*
I don't think your hands are any cleaner than mine. But nice try. What try? You asked a question and I answered. Of course the primary aim of the company I work for is to make mony for the shareholders, and of course my primary reason for working there is to make money, what did you think?

But there IS a difference: My company does not hint that our product has some property that we cannot document it has. If for no other reason, then because we are not allowed to.

If you don't like the answers, better not ask the questions.

Hans

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by Mike Drisco

In fact, I am such a changed man, born again you might say, I feel like I should put a disclaimer out there anyway but that too may entice so I won't.

But dang it. I want to use Magic in the brand name like they do for Magic Markers. Any objections? Should I include clearly state a disclaimer such as "This Magnetic Jewelry is not magical but demonstrates purely scientific principles".

Look I'm trying to be good here. Would you all consider providing your comments on my use of the word Magic in my brand name and if that is acceptable, should I disclaim it, and if so would you please suggest appropriate wording to disclaim it.

I have no problem with the use of the word magic in a brand name, and see no need for posting a disclaimer.

[arcticpenguin]

No strings or clasps, they just stick together via magnetism? Interesting. Is there any difference between the different colored spheres, other than the color? Are they all equally magnetic?

Could be a nuisance or even a hazard for people who work with machinery.

[roger]

Wow, those look cool.

I don't see any problem with 'magic' in the title.

[mjv]

If I were you, I'd forget using the word "magic" and go instead with the word "power".

e.g.:

"My jewelry utilizes the ancient power of magnetism"

"the natural power of magnetism is harnessed and formed into wearable jewelry"

If some wacko chooses, because of their own previously held belief, to interpret that to mean "healing powers" or whatever, that is their problem.

[ebola]

Mike,

That IS a neat product. I think it would practically sell itself, negating any need for a foray into ethical gray areas. I also think working the word "magic" into the brand name would help describe the product, as customers can alter the jewelry as they wish. You might want to try "Magic Changing Jewelry" or better "Presto Chango Jewelry". n/c by the way.

Eric

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by roger
Wow, those look cool.Yup, until someone bumps you, and the bracelet falls to the ground, and you find yourself chasing little round balls all over the floor, under the couch...

Seriously, I have seen magnetic bracelets, magnetic clasp0s on neklaces and brooches, and have yet to see one that does not come apart - and usually get lost - the first time worn out of the house.

[fishbait]

That's it? Just colored magnetic balls?

Well, I hope you have a regular day job beside this.

Did ya consider how wearing these magnetic balls on your wrist
will effect credit card stripes and cell phone display screens and other techy stuff? And, who wants to spend all day removing paper clips and other assorted metal debris from their jewelry?

Fetching wayward soup cans that have rolled under the table is a useful feature but ......