In God you trust?

[mummymonkey]

This piece in today's Scotsman (http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/index.cfm?id=960562003) is probably typical of the way the US is seen just now by most people in the UK. Is it fair?

More than 200 years after its foundation, the American people - whose dollar bills bear the motto ‘In God We Trust’ and whose president invokes God’s name at the end of virtually every speech - remain at odds as to precisely where the line of separation between church and state should be drawn.

[Yahweh]

Just a little additional information...
Myth: The fact that US money is stamped with the phrase "In God we trust" and the US pledge of allegiance contains the phrase "under God" is evidence that the founding fathers believed that religion should be endorsed by the state.

Fact: Neither phrase was used until about a century or more after the US was founded. The phrase "In God we trust" first appeared on US coins shortly after the Civil War. It did not appear on paper money until the McCarthy era when pious politicians wanted to distinguish the US from the "Godless Communists". The pledge of allegiance was also adulterated during the McCarthy era; the original pledge did not contain the phrase "under God".
(Source: http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/xtian.html)

The McCarthy Era (or Cold War era), to be openly atheist was considered taboo. Any openly atheist politician was scapegoated as an ally to Communism. No politician would ever want that to happen. To continue showing that America was not a godless and communist nation, we started printing "In God We Trust" on our paper money (hey look, it says that in the piece I cited). If anything, we never put "In God We Trust" on our money for religious reasons, we did it (loosely) as a spite to communism. And today, it appears that the phrase favors and promotes Christianity, some people dont appreciate that.

[arcticpenguin]

is being seen by many Christians as an assault on their faith and an affront to the national motto ‘In God We Trust’.
That's the official national motto? I don't think so. Do your frickin research first before pretending to be a journalist.

He and others are determined to take on those who insist the US is a secular state.
Like George Washington.

[mummymonkey]

On July 30, 1956 a law was passed stating that "the national motto of the United States is hereby declared to be 'In God we trust'." (70 Stat. 732. 36 U.S. Code 186). The House Judiciary Committee recognized that the phrase E Pluribus Unum had also received wide usage in the United States, and the joint resolution did not repeal or prohibit its use as a national motto. In 1963 the Department of State took the following position: "'In God we trust'" is the motto of the United States. It seems to the Department, nevertheless, that there is ample basis both in history and I law for calling 'E Pluribus Unum' a motto of the United States." The Congress has used both.

http://www.usscouts.org/flag/sealmotto.html

That's what the scouts say. Is this not right then?

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by mummymonkey

http://www.usscouts.org/flag/sealmotto.html

That's what the scouts say. Is this not right then?
OK, you got me. But it seems it's only one of two mottos.

Further on the same page:

Have federal court cases cast doubt on the constitutionality of the motto "In God we trust"?

The federal courts have held that the motto symbolizes the historical role of religion in our society, Lynch, 465 U.S. at 676, formalizes our medium of exchange, see O'Hair v. Blumenthal, 462 F. Supp. 19, 20 (W.D. Tex.), aff'd sub nom. O'Hair v. Murray, 588 F.2d 1144 (5th Cir. 1978) (per curiam), and cert. denied, 442 U.S.930 (1979), fosters patriotism, see Aronow v. United States, 432 F.2d 242, 243 (9th Cir. 1970), and expresses confidence in the future, Lynch, 465 U.S. at 692-93 (O'Connor, J., concurring). The motto's primary effect is not to advance religion; instead, it is a form of "ceremonial deism" which through historical usage and ubiquity cannot be reasonably understood to convey government approval of religious belief. Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 625 (O'Connor, J., concurring); Lynch, 465 U.S. at 693 (O'Connor, J., concurring); id. at 716 (Brennan, J., dissenting). Finally, the motto does not create an intimate relationship of the type that suggests unconstitutional entanglement of church and state. O'Hair, 462 F. Supp. at 20. "After making [inquiries], we find that a reasonable observer, aware of the purpose, context, and history of the phrase "In God we trust," would not consider its use or its reproduction on U.S. currency to be an endorsement of religion. (Gaylor vs USA, 10th Cir. 1996)

A "reasonable observer" wouldn't think that putting "In God we trust" on our currency is an endorsement of religion? I'm not following their line of thought there. Expressing trust in something would seem to be an acknowledgment of its existence, which in this case is most definitely a religious position.

[c4ts]

Let's change it to "In Cthulhu we trust."

[espritch]

Our money does indeed bear the words "In God we trust". But I've noticed that prostitutes, drug dealers, and television evangelists accept it as legal tender anyway. ;)

[Marilyn_Manson]

Originally posted by espritch
Our money does indeed bear the words "In God we trust". But I've noticed that prostitutes, drug dealers, and television evangelists accept it as legal tender anyway. ;)

And we have to trust God for prostitutes, drug dealers, and television evangelists.

[Yahweh]

I'd like to start a petition having it changed to "In Money We Trust". Who is with me?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Yahweh
I'd like to start a petition having it changed to "In Money We Trust". Who is with me?

Change "Money" to "Alan Greenspan" an I'm on board!

[calladus]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

That's the official national motto? I don't think so. Do your frickin research first before pretending to be a journalist.


Like George Washington.

Arcticpenguin, I so enjoy your posts - but this time you are (sadly) incorrect.

The US officially has 2 mottos - the original, and the [Blech!] "New and Improved! [/Blech!]

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by mummymonkey
This piece in today's Scotsman (http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/index.cfm?id=960562003) is probably typical of the way the US is seen just now by most people in the UK. Is it fair?

Mummy, I just now read the article and I must say, with some regret, that yes, it is accurate. While these issues aren't at the forefront of everyone's daily lives, the small but energetic and vocal hyper-Christians do make these issues ongoing sources of drama and strife.

Oh, and litigation. ;)

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by calladus


Arcticpenguin, I so enjoy your posts - but this time you are (sadly) incorrect.

The US officially has 2 mottos - the original, and the [Blech!] "New and Improved! [/Blech!]
OK, I will reiterate my acceptance of the fact more clearly. I was wrong. I of course knew that "In God we trust" appears on our currency, but was unaware that it had been declared an 'official motto' of the USA.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Hey AP imagine the egg on your face if you had to admit that the phrase appears in the national anthem too... albiet in the 4th and last stanza, but it does.

[Gulliamo]

Has (is) there any sort of movement to get this removed from our Pledge and our currency? If so how (where) do we sign the petition?

[Brown]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
Hey AP imagine the egg on your face if you had to admit that the phrase appears in the national anthem too... albiet in the 4th and last stanza, but it does. Well... the National Anthem includes a variation of the phrase: "And this be our motto, 'In God Is Our Trust.'" It can be argued, however, that Key used "is our" instead of "we" to obtain a more pleasing meter in his poem.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Brown, salient as always. It was just embarassing for me to insist in chat that our National Anthem did not contain a God reference based on the first stanza when indeed a God reference did occur in the fourth.

[Brian the Snail]

E Pluribus Unum

This is the first time I've heard that this was a motto of the US, and I must say that this seems much more inclusive (and fitting for a secular nation) than "In God we trust".

But then again, I'm not an American, so what do I know.

[Upchurch]

Considering that this is money we're talking about, shouldn't it read "In Gold We Trust"? Gold being the foundation for the value of the money and we're trusting in the value of that gold?

[diddidit]

But the value of the $ isn't attached to the value of gold anymore - Nixon de-linked the two in 1971. We must place our trust in the dollar alone.

did

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by diddidit
But the value of the $ isn't attached to the value of gold anymore - Nixon de-linked the two in 1971. We must place our trust in the dollar alone. Really. Shows what I know. ;)

How about "In The Value of This Green Paper We Trust"? Doesn't have the same right to it. Maybe better to just forgo the whole motto altogether.

[diddidit]

Indeed, unless we were to make it ambiguous enough to serve all purposes. I propose "In Stuff We Trust," which would seem to serve the American ideal particularly well.

did

[swstephe]

From what I remember from economics, the US monetary system, since it is no longer backed by gold, is technically considered a "chit fund" system. So I vote for "In Chit we Trust". Or if you feel otherwise, "We Don't Trust Chit". :biggrin:

[arcticpenguin]

Originally posted by swstephe
From what I remember from economics, the US monetary system, since it is no longer backed by gold, is technically considered a "chit fund" system. So I vote for "In Chit we Trust". Or if you feel otherwise, "We Don't Trust Chit". :biggrin:
So when i meet a rich man I could tell him he is "full of chit"?

[diddidit]

Originally posted by arcticpenguin

So when i meet a rich man I could tell him he is "full of chit"?

What's more, a wealthy rancher could be full of bullchit! Ah, the possibilities are endless.

However, I modify my prior proposal to:

"For Stuff We Lust"

did

[urstardust]

Dose anyone really think that the U.S. will ever take it off or change it to something other than ‘In God We Trust’? How many years or decades will it take?

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by mummymonkey
This piece in today's Scotsman (http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/index.cfm?id=960562003) is probably typical of the way the US is seen just now by most people in the UK. Is it fair?

This from a country that has an official state church?

[Nefertiti]

"This is what happens when you get just a few folks, these judges, who think they are God and act like God at the expense of God. There’s no question religious rights in America are being eroded." Judges are the new God?

From that statement, I wonder if Religion is on the way out under todays current lifestyles?

Both Religion and Politics have been interwoven for so long, maybe it is now being unravelled as attitudes towards Religion have changed?

Originally posted by mummymonkey
This piece in today's Scotsman (http://www.scotlandonsunday.com/index.cfm?id=960562003) is probably typical of the way the US is seen just now by most people in the UK. Is it fair?


Fair, no. Applicable, possibly.

Is it an uncomfortable contradiction to a non Religious person to have that statement on money and on oaths?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Nefertiti
Is it an uncomfortable contradiction to a non Religious person to have that statement on money and on oaths?

My greenbacks spend the same regardless of what's printed on that back. I used to use a black marker to cross it out, but decided it wasn't worth it. I was also curious to see if others might start doing the same, but Where's George (http://www.wheresgeorge.com) turned out to be more popular.

I just skip saying it in oaths in a group, or refuse to say it if I'm by myself.

[Nefertiti]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


My greenbacks spend the same regardless of what's printed on that back. I used to use a black marker to cross it out, but decided it wasn't worth it. I was also curious to see if others might start doing the same, but Where's George (http://www.wheresgeorge.com) turned out to be more popular.
That is bemusing.

My companion has just said this, an alternative version of 'In God we trust.' "In man we trust, in God we demand proof of"

[Zep]

If anything, take it back to "E Pluribus Unum" (Trans: from many, one). Personally I think it typifies the USA WAY more accurately than the other motto (which is divisive - hence this thread), and it also obliquely references your origins in 1776 and since then. I like it!

FWIW, our state motto is "Orta Recens Quam Pura Nites". Not only Latin, it looks like an ancient pescription!

[Some Friggin Guy]

I agree with the E Pluribus Unum (I can't spell Latin words, or even most English ones, so forgive me on this.)

Frankly, I find "In God We Trust" to be a lie, since, I, for one, DON'T trust god.

[Mendor]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
This from a country that has an official state church? And yet, it has very little influence over anything. Blair's a religious man, but would never think of making overt religious references in his speeches, and if he did he would probably be pilloried.

In fact, in Scotland, it's such a non-issue that it's only recently I've found out that the Church of Scotland is an established church.

[mummymonkey]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
This from a country that has an official state church?
That's the whole point. The US is, so we're told in school here, a secular state with a strict separation between churches and state. It’s something I’ve always admired and envied. We here, by way of contrast, have established churches, bishops in parliament, state funded Catholic schools, religious imagery on our symbols and flags and the national anthem is God Save the Queen. Both her Maj and Rev Blair have got God.

However, now you have God on your money, in your courthouses, and in your motto and anthem. You've got God in your scary president big time. You can't switch on to a US TV show without somebody praying for something or other, or thanking God for this or that. That's a whole lot of God you seem to have there.

And yet according to the Pope (http://www.sundayherald.com/31980) Scotland is no longer a Christian country. Kirk attendances are plummeting and religion has long since become irrelevant to most people.

Why is it, that the secular United States appears to be sinking into a religious mire of its own making while the Christian United Kingdom becomes more Godless by the day?