The Good Samaritan Law

[JJR]

I scored hero points again. While distributing flyers for an upcomming garage sale with a friend I got to help a sweet old lady.

I was putting the flyer on the door of a house when I heard, "Heeellp" from inside. I asked, "Are you all right? What's wrong?" and the voice replied, "I need help. Come in through the door."

I went inside and an elderly woman was on the floor. There was blood on the floor. I asked her what happened and she replied, "I fell while trying to get in to my wheel chair."

After saying, "It's okay. I have medical training" I got her wheel chair and lifted her into it. I then cleaned the blood off of her and sterelized the wound with hydrogen peroxide. My friend had come in and watched all of this. Soon all the blood was cleaned off of her and we asked her if she needed to borrow a phone and she replied, "No."

She had told us that the phone next to her was dead so I had checked the one in the bathroom, "Next to the camode" as she said and it had a dial tone. She said she was going to call a friend to clean up the rest of the blood on the floor.

We left, walking through the park and talking about how fun it is to help people. There were parents and kids playing soccer.

Everything was fine but then I told this story to a friend of my Dad's while at the cross walk. He said, "I hope you don't get in trouble." I crossed the street, bought our after-work beer and went home. I discussed it with my family and was told, "Don't worry. The Good Samaritan Law protects you."

I remembered learning about this back in medical school. I then also remembered an interesting case where a doctor was drunk and revived someone. The doctor was being a good citizen and was in a bar. He had a ride home and had gotten off of work a few hours before. He was just relaxing in the bar and drinking with friends when suddenly a man next to him had a heart attack. The doctor did CPR on the man until the paramedics arrived and took over.

Afterward, the cops went after him. The doctor. They are trying to take away his medical liscence because he was drunk and performed medicine on someone. Now, I was sober as a judge when I lept into action and saved someone without thinking about money or the fact that I was not at a hospital . . . but what if I had stopped at the local bar on the way to distribute flyers and had had a couple of drinks?

I mean, after all I was on foot. I could have been over the limit and have been following the law. There are no laws against being drunk while distributing flyers for a garage sale.

Scary stuff. Fortuneately the law isn't after me for saving the nice old lady from hours of lying on the floor while bleeding and scared. Not today, anyway.

Laws are meant to be used to protect people . . . not harass citizens for having a good time. And cops should stop harassing men that happen to have long hair, too. Dumbasses.

That's my oppinion. I don't care if my doctor drinks while off duty. Considering our culture, though . . . is it possible that with my leftist views on the subject I'm encouraging some young doctor to smoke a blunt before operating?

Dr. Bob Marley's brand of medicine is something to be considered.

-JJR

[Spindrift]

Good Samaritan laws are state laws in the USA I believe, they vary from state to state and not sure if all states have them.

I know some require those with medical training to assist while others just protect those with medical training who do assist.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

<< SNIP >>

Dr. Bob Marley's brand of medicine is something to be considered.

-JJR

Do try that. It causes cancer in you legs. :covereyes

[JJR]

Good Samaritan laws are state laws in the USA I believe, they vary from state to state and not sure if all states have them.

I know some require those with medical training to assist while others just protect those with medical training who do assist.

Wow. I'm going to state that the law should be such that you HAVE to help unless you, yourself are incapacitated . . . and if so you should be required to dial 911 on your cell phone.

The Samaritan Law in California just protects you, though. I could have just stayed outside of the house and called for an ambulance.

I can't immagine not doing my duty as a health care professional because I love order, dicipline, and villigance . . . this is why I am in the field of medicine in the first place. It takes a little more than liking shows like, "MASH" and, "Scrubs".

[Katana]

Wow. I'm going to state that the law should be such that you HAVE to help unless you, yourself are incapacitated . . . and if so you should be required to dial 911 on your cell phone.

The Samaritan Law in California just protects you, though. I could have just stayed outside of the house and called for an ambulance.

I can't immagine not doing my duty as a health care professional because I love order, dicipline, and villigance . . . this is why I am in the field of medicine in the first place. It takes a little more than liking shows like, "MASH" and, "Scrubs".


What do you do?

[JJR]

Do try that. It causes cancer in you legs. :covereyes

The doctor said . . . son . . . you have Reggaemylitus. Reggae . . . thrombosis. Reggaeitis.

Is it incurable? More like desireable. ;)

Time and place for everything, slick. :cool:

[JJR]

What do you do?

While I didn't get to draw blood on my externship (I'm painless - it's amazing) or give injections (painless again) I did get to do an EKG (electrocardiogram), took vitals in a fast-paced and serious urology clinic, tested lots of urine . . . and helped vascectomize 3 men. I left a few things out but I loved working in such a serious place and the feeling I got of being a vital part of the team. I brought the perfect gift for the girls one day. Chocolate covered gourmet coffee beans with the belief that in a place like that it's, "Better wired than tired" . . . and I was right.

The girls ate all of them. The main young woman in charge was into martial arts, like me. We had some good conversations.

[King of the Americas]

I am not a doctor, a nurse, or even a medical database engineer.

But IF I am going to do CPR on someone, I always take a shot of whatever is on hand first. *It's a germ thing.

And if I am going to perform surgery on myself or anyone else, I always smoke first. It calms my nerves. After all, who wants a shaky needle coming at them, that is already hampered by a complete lack of medical knowledge!?

---

My college roommate was charged with assault, back in '97 for breaking a guy's rib while performing the hymlick manuver to expell a piece of salad.

It all happened in like 45 seconds, the guy was right behind us, and stood up fanning his face llike he just ate some hot. I calmly said, "Hey Ken, he is choking, give himthe hymlick." 3 thrusts later, out the lettuc came. The guy didn't even thank us, but his wife did. They left, to go to the hospital. We got the dinner comped by the eatery. 2 weeks later, Ken gets a supena saying he was being charged with 'simple assault'. I knew a lawyer who I had write a letter on Ken's behalf. A week later, Ken told me that the guy's lawyer called him as work to tell him that they weren't pursing charges anymore.

Did I mention how much I hate overly litigious bastards?

The moral to the story here is that, you SHOULD help those whom you come across that need your help. If you get sued, hire a lawyer.

[JJR]

This isn't the first time I've saved somebody. Back in medical school, a young guy fainted while having his blood drawn and hit his head on the sink - REALLY HARD!! The doctor ran up to him yelling at us, "Call 911!!!". I and the other A students sprang into action. We got the school nurse, we called 911 and I flagged down the ambulance (had to sprint) and got them where they needed to be.

Fun times. I really loved the autopsy in med school. They peeled back the cadaver's face like a bananna and opened the skull. I got to play with the brain, the liver, the kidneys, the spleen, and the heart of a man who died the night before.

[Katana]

This isn't the first time I've saved somebody. Back in medical school, a young guy fainted while having his blood drawn and hit his head on the sink - REALLY HARD!! The doctor ran up to him yelling at us, "Call 911!!!". I and the other A students sprang into action. We got the school nurse, we called 911 and I flagged down the ambulance (had to sprint) and got them where they needed to be.

Fun times. I really loved the autopsy in med school. They peeled back the cadaver's face like a bananna and opened the skull. I got to play with the brain, the liver, the kidneys, the spleen, and the heart of a man who died the night before.


Are you a physician?

[JJR]

I am not a doctor, a nurse, or even a medical database engineer.

But IF I am going to do CPR on someone, I always take a shot of whatever is on hand first. *It's a germ thing.

And if I am going to perform surgery on myself or anyone else, I always smoke first. It calms my nerves. After all, who wants a shaky needle coming at them, that is already hampered by a complete lack of medical knowledge!?

---

The moral to the story here is that, you SHOULD help those whom you come across that need your help. If you get sued, hire a lawyer.

Er . . . sure thing sport.

[JJR]

Are you a physician?

Nope. Just an MA. I might finish school and be a male nurse. I met an EMT the other day that was working at a grocery store.

He's a cool Irish guy who shaves his head just like I used to.

[Crossbow]

I scored hero points again. While distributing flyers for an upcomming garage sale with a friend I got to help a sweet old lady.

... snipped for brevity

-JJR

While I am not a lawyer, however I used to an EMT.

Anyway, I would say that since the woman asked for help, and you provided help within the limits of your training and expertise, then you could not be held liable for any damages that may result from the care you provided.

But if you were drunk at the time you provided care, and you did botch the job, then yes, I would most definitely say you would be liable for that in the same way that anyone else is liable for doing botched work when they are drunk.

I hope this helps and thanks for being a nice person!

[TragicMonkey]

If I saved somebody with the Heimlich, and they tried to press charges or sue me afterwards, I would cancel out my action by choking the original victim to death. That would restore the balance of the universe to the way things would have been if not for my intercession, and everybody would then be happy.

[JJR]

While I am not a lawyer, however I used to an EMT.

Anyway, I would say that since the woman asked for help, and you provided help within the limits of your training and expertise, then you could not be held liable for any damages that may result from the care you provided.

But if you were drunk at the time you provided care, and you did botch the job, then yes, I would most definitely say you would be liable for that in the same way that anyone else is liable for doing botched work when they are drunk.

Liable for damages, yes . . . but subject to the same rules as when working at the hospital? As in: "You showed up to work drunk. You're fired and can't work in medicine ever again."

If I was drunk at work, sure thing . . . but am I supposed to never touch a drop FOREVER just because I want to be able to save a life or help someone wherever I go?

I hope this helps and thanks for being a nice person!

You covered and cleared up part of the subject but not all, and you're very welcome! I love to be nice since I know it gives people hope for the world when people act like people and not . . . greedheads or kooks.

[JJR]

If I saved somebody with the Heimlich, and they tried to press charges or sue me afterwards, I would cancel out my action by choking the original victim to death. That would restore the balance of the universe to the way things would have been if not for my intercession, and everybody would then be happy.

It almost seems like that would be better with our crazy laws sometimes, doesn't it? Big Brother breathing down the neck encouraging indifference, fear, and never being part of anything more permanent than yourself.

Oooooooooonly in America. What a great country!!

Robbers sue people for using force on them, too!! Why not? The professional victim is seen as the highest head on the totem pole here!

[Safe-Keeper]

While I'm not a professional like JJR, I've taken a first-aid course and given first-aid once to a woman who fell down (nothing serious, she was even conscious). And this whole thing infuriates me.

Everyone should learn first aid, everyone should use it when it's needed, and no sick pathetic **** should have the boldness to sue someone for saving their life.

If I saved somebody with the Heimlich, and they tried to press charges or sue me afterwards, I would cancel out my action by choking the original victim to death. That would restore the balance of the universe to the way things would have been if not for my intercession, and everybody would then be happy.That's what comes to mind when I hear about these things, too. Don't want people to break your ribs giving you CPR? Fine, walk around with an armband saying 'In the event of emergency, do not administer first-aid. Violators will be sued'. Perhaps I should start printing them up and selling them myself? JJR, wanna be my business partner;)?

[Crossbow]

Liable for damages, yes . . . but subject to the same rules as when working at the hospital? As in: "You showed up to work drunk. You're fired and can't work in medicine ever again."

If I was drunk at work, sure thing . . . but am I supposed to never touch a drop FOREVER just because I want to be able to save a life or help someone wherever I go?


Umm, if you are drunk and get into a similar situation, then you essentially do the same thing which is provide the best care you can under the circumstances.

If you are too drunk to properly dress wounds, then do not try to do so, instead pick up the phone and call for help.
If you are too drunk to use the phone or find the phone, then go into the street and yell for help.
If you are so drunk that you cannot even yell for help, then you are probably incapable of doing much of anything anyway, so it would be best to do nothing but stay nearby and not do any further harm to the injured person.


You covered and cleared up part of the subject but not all, and you're very welcome! I love to be nice since I know it gives people hope for the world when people act like people and not . . . greedheads or kooks.

You are most welcome and it nice to see someone so considerate.

[qayak]

Good samaritan laws usually only protect you as long as you don't exceed the limits of your training. If you have no first-aid training, there isn't really much you can do and still be protected by the good samaritan laws. I think the limit would be moving someone to a safe position when they are in imminent danger. For instance, if they wiped out on a motorbike and launched into a pool of water and you pulled them out to prevent them drowning, you would probably be protected from being sued for any damage caused by the movement.

However, many US states do consider watching ER and M*A*S*H advanced medical training. Anyone that can show they are regular viewers, pretty much has the equivilent of a medical degree and can perform brain and open heart surgeries on the street with a pen knife and jumper cables.

P.S.- I am neither a doctor nor a lawyer, you might want to check the above info before proceeding! :D

[JJR]

Umm, if you are drunk and get into a similar situation, then you essentially do the same thing which is provide the best care you can under the circumstances.

If you are too drunk to properly dress wounds, then do not try to do so, instead pick up the phone and call for help.
If you are too drunk to use the phone or find the phone, then go into the street and yell for help.
If you are so drunk that you cannot even yell for help, then you are probably incapable of doing much of anything anyway, so it would be best to do nothing but stay nearby and not do any further harm to the injured person.

That is all fine. That covers liability for damages. Remember, the doctor in my scenario was quite successful with his CPR even under the influence of alcohol he had injested.

He judged that he was able to do something, and did. Obviously he was light drinker, as many professional men are.

The law is still after him in New York, though . . . because they are sticking to the letter of the law. He was successful, but he was also over the limit for driving.

I find this . . . really dumb. I wouldn't try and take away the doctor's liscence for having a couple of martinis off duty.

You are most welcome and it nice to see someone so considerate.

Thanks!!

[JJR]

Good samaritan laws usually only protect you as long as you don't exceed the limits of your training. If you have no first-aid training, there isn't really much you can do and still be protected by the good samaritan laws. I think the limit would be moving someone to a safe position when they are in imminent danger. For instance, if they wiped out on a motorbike and launched into a pool of water and you pulled them out to prevent them drowning, you would probably be protected from being sued for any damage caused by the movement.

However, many US states do consider watching ER and M*A*S*H advanced medical training. Anyone that can show they are regular viewers, pretty much has the equivilent of a medical degree and can perform brain and open heart surgeries on the street with a pen knife and jumper cables.

P.S.- I am neither a doctor nor a lawyer, you might want to check the above info before proceeding! :D


I agree totally with this because it's funny, but I must give props to Dr. Cox from, "Scrubs". He's aces in my book. Need to see more of that in the field.

He's just young enough to be abrasive in is vigillance but still mellow sometimes. He gives people a break when they need it because it's sportsmanlike.

[fuelair]

Good Samaritan laws are state laws in the USA I believe, they vary from state to state and not sure if all states have them.

I know some require those with medical training to assist while others just protect those with medical training who do assist.

Some also protect those without medical training who do assist (at least Tennessee unless it has changed since I moved many years ago.)

[qayak]

I agree totally with this because it's funny, but I must give props to Dr. Cox from, "Scrubs". He's aces in my book. Need to see more of that in the field.

He's just young enough to be abrasive in is vigillance but still mellow sometimes. He gives people a break when they need it because it's sportsmanlike.

I'll take your word for it. I haven't watched television for about 15 years.

I always got a kick out of the fact that you seldom, if ever, see a character on a television show as wrapped up in characters on television as the people watching that character on television! Follow the example set by your favourite televisions doctor, DON'T WATCH TELEVISION!

When my kids were younger they would want to sit in the house for hours and watch some show or other, Power Rangers for example. I would do them one better, instead of sitting inside on a beautiful day WATCHING Power Rangers, I sent them outside to BE Power Rangers. :D

[JJR]

I'll take your word for it. I haven't watched television for about 15 years.

I always got a kick out of the fact that you seldom, if ever, see a character on a television show as wrapped up in characters on television as the people watching that character on television! Follow the example set by your favourite televisions doctor, DON'T WATCH TELEVISION!

When my kids were younger they would want to sit in the house for hours and watch some show or other, Power Rangers for example. I would do them one better, instead of sitting inside on a beautiful day WATCHING Power Rangers, I sent them outside to BE Power Rangers. :D

Groovalicious moon doggy!! :catfight: :scared: :hypnotize

:p

[Michael Redman]

If I saved somebody with the Heimlich, and they tried to press charges or sue me afterwards, I would cancel out my action by choking the original victim to death. That would restore the balance of the universe to the way things would have been if not for my intercession, and everybody would then be happy.I endorse this solution.

[JJR]

I endorse this solution.

Seconded. Motion carried. Let justice be swift.

[Safe-Keeper]

However, many US states do consider watching ER and M*A*S*H advanced medical training. Anyone that can show they are regular viewers, pretty much has the equivilent of a medical degree and can perform brain and open heart surgeries on the street with a pen knife and jumper cables.If that's true, it's bad news. Take for example how they deliberately misrepresent CPR to avoid hurting the actor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cpr#Place_in_film_and_television).

Nothing is a good substitute for a first-aid course.

[JJR]

If that's true, it's bad news. Take for example how they deliberately misrepresent CPR to avoid hurting the actor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cpr#Place_in_film_and_television).

Nothing is a good substitute for a first-aid course.

Yep. The CPR course was facinating and I talked with the American Heart Association guy who was teaching the class. He was military, and I told him that my uncle worked on B52s.

EDIT: I immagine the main sin of TV CPR is to not do it hard enough. You're trying to pump blood through the body using the heart as a pump, and it's behind a ribcage. They taught us in class that if you break a couple of ribs your are doing your job right.

Remember - you can't hurt someone with CPR, because it doesn't matter. The victim isn't hurt - the victim is dead. You are merely keeping their brain alive so that they can be brought back with a defribrilator.

EDIT: How about a link? (http://depts.washington.edu/learncpr/quickcpr.html)

[Kerberos]

Wow. I'm going to state that the law should be such that you HAVE to help unless you, yourself are incapacitated . . . and if so you should be required to dial 911 on your cell phone.



We have such a law in Denmark, though the demands it places on a passaby are far from stringent. The only people I heard of being convicted were people who just left without even calling 911 (or 112 rather which is the EU equivelant).

[JJR]

We have such a law in Denmark, though the demands it places on a passaby are far from stringent. The only people I heard of being convicted were people who just left without even calling 911 (or 112 rather which is the EU equivelant).

Scandanavia was cool, although I didn't exactly see teams of parents bringing me their daughters. That's my main complaint, plus insomnia. A few showed up with daughters (young hotness - check), but that was kind of a closed group thing . . . I know who that was. That has nothing to do with the general populace.

I mean, I might as well have brought my own women. Some young military chicks or something.

Giving a big ol' Roman salute to the crowd beneath my hotel window was very cool. A guy in the crowd was doing it, too. Everyone was happy.

Sometimes I miss my shaved head.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I am not a doctor, a nurse, or even a medical database engineer.

But IF I am going to do CPR on someone, I always take a shot of whatever is on hand first. *It's a germ thing.

And if I am going to perform surgery on myself or anyone else, I always smoke first. It calms my nerves. After all, who wants a shaky needle coming at them, that is already hampered by a complete lack of medical knowledge!?

---

My college roommate was charged with assault, back in '97 for breaking a guy's rib while performing the hymlick manuver to expell a piece of salad.

It all happened in like 45 seconds, the guy was right behind us, and stood up fanning his face llike he just ate some hot. I calmly said, "Hey Ken, he is choking, give himthe hymlick." 3 thrusts later, out the lettuc came. The guy didn't even thank us, but his wife did. They left, to go to the hospital. We got the dinner comped by the eatery. 2 weeks later, Ken gets a supena saying he was being charged with 'simple assault'. I knew a lawyer who I had write a letter on Ken's behalf. A week later, Ken told me that the guy's lawyer called him as work to tell him that they weren't pursing charges anymore.

Did I mention how much I hate overly litigious bastards?

The moral to the story here is that, you SHOULD help those whom you come across that need your help. If you get sued, hire a lawyer.I'm sorry but I'm skeptical of this story. Cops are not in the habit of filing such charges.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Nope. Just an MA. I might finish school and be a male nurse. ....How did you end up in "med school" then? Or was this an anatomy class in a nursing program? Attending an autopsy sounds like an advanced class.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I hate to judge from afar but why didn't you call a medical provider (ie 911) to check the woman over?

Things come to mind,

Complications of the fall: broken hip or other bone, other injury (what was bleeding?) subdural hematoma
Complications which led to the fall: heart or neurological problem, stroke, subdural hematoma, spontaneous fracture, medication reaction

And I'm sure there are more less common possibilities.

[JJR]

How did you end up in "med school" then? Or was this an anatomy class in a nursing program? Attending an autopsy sounds like an advanced class.

The school is a certified, accredited school of medicine that has both a Medical Assisting program and a Nursing program. I was taking the former. I went on to the Nursing program for a while, but had too much insomnia to continue for now.

We did, in fact, attend an autopsy and it was not that advanced of a class . . . except for the fact that our Asian doctor took her job seriously and made the class much harder than the other teachers did. It was because of her that we got to go see the cadaver. She was ex-military.

Lots of the young blonde girls got sick. I went outside and tried to comfort the one I knew best (she was a teasy, annoying girl who was facinated with me) and told her to think about green grass and waterfalls and bunnys.

I hope she didn't find that to be patronizing. :rolleyes:

[JJR]

I hate to judge from afar but why didn't you call a medical provider (ie 911) to check the woman over?

Things come to mind,

Complications of the fall: broken hip or other bone, other injury (what was bleeding?) subdural hematoma
Complications which led to the fall: heart or neurological problem, stroke, subdural hematoma, spontaneous fracture, medication reaction

And I'm sure there are more less common possibilities.

I asked her if she wanted me to do that with my cell phone, and she said, "No". No means no in this vicinity.

[TragicMonkey]

Lots of the young blonde girls got sick. I went outside and tried to comfort the one I knew best (she was a teasy, annoying girl who was facinated with me) and told her to think about green grass and waterfalls and bunnys.

"Think about happy, fluffy bunnies....



....with their faces peeled off their skulls."

[Skeptic Ginger]

I asked her if she wanted me to do that with my cell phone, and she said, "No". No means no in this vicinity.If it were me, I would have called 911 for an assessment. The patient could refuse to be seen by them.

It's just a matter of my taking one additional step, whether the lady wanted me to or not. From my experience, a lot of elderly people will tell you not to "fuss" about something. Sometimes it's just a way of being polite.

Other times the person needs help but doesn't recognize that. It is part of the aging brain. For example, my Mom was visiting. She is getting senile but she functions. She had her daily laxatives and a check sheet to mark when she took each pill. But she got confused as to what day it was and took two days worth. She then had the results you would expect from ODing on laxatives. I saw the paper she had marked two days worth.

But when I figured out what had happened and showed her, she had the written paper, plus she had the bad results, yet she denied making the mistake. It is part of the dementia to do that. Literally.

We have a dilemma with the elderly. When do you take away the car keys, when do you not give them the choice? They are adults. But at some point, you do have to take away those keys.

So I would have called. If she wanted to refuse the aide once it was there, it would have then been out of my hands. But just saying, "no, don't call", would not have made me choose not to call.

[Skeptic Ginger]

"Think about happy, fluffy bunnies....



....with their faces peeled off their skulls."Ya got to skin the thing if you are going to eat it. ;)

[JJR]

If it were me, I would have called 911 for an assessment. The patient could refuse to be seen by them.

It's just a matter of my taking one additional step, whether the lady wanted me to or not. From my experience, a lot of elderly people will tell you not to "fuss" about something. Sometimes it's just a way of being polite.

Other times the person needs help but doesn't recognize that. It is part of the aging brain. For example, my Mom was visiting. She is getting senile but she functions. She had her daily laxatives and a check sheet to mark when she took each pill. But she got confused as to what day it was and took two days worth. She then had the results you would expect from ODing on laxatives. I saw the paper she had marked two days worth.

But when I figured out what had happened and showed her, she had the written paper, plus she had the bad results, yet she denied making the mistake. It is part of the dementia to do that. Literally.

We have a dilemma with the elderly. When do you take away the car keys, when do you not give them the choice? They are adults. But at some point, you do have to take away those keys.

So I would have called. If she wanted to refuse the aide once it was there, it would have then been out of my hands. But just saying, "no, don't call", would not have made me choose not to call.

I'm going to be skeptical of that. I did not do it, and I do not think the law should require you to do so.

[JJR]

Ya got to skin the thing if you are going to eat it. ;)

As long as you thump it first, it's humane. Holding them down in a towel and hitting them behind the head with a wrench works best.

That's not illegal as long as you own a big reptile . . . otherwise it's cruelty to animals. My friend owned a 20-foot reticulated python. He fed it huge black rabbits.

[Beerina]

I recall a dubious story I read where a truck crashed and the driver crushed his throat on the steering wheel. A doctor who happened to be passing by gave the guy an emergency tracheotomy. The doctors' buddies told him he might want to have just called 911 and go about his business, in which case the guy probably would have died. Why? By doing the surgery, especially without the guy's permission (unconscious) or the family's (not there) he was opening himself up to being sued for malpractice, or god knows what.

The doctor wasn't sued, but sheesh, what a messed up world to live in.

[JJR]

Oooooooooonly in America. What a great country!

[drkitten]

I recall a dubious story I read where a truck crashed and the driver crushed his throat on the steering wheel. A doctor who happened to be passing by gave the guy an emergency tracheotomy. The doctors' buddies told him he might want to have just called 911 and go about his business, in which case the guy probably would have died. Why? By doing the surgery, especially without the guy's permission (unconscious) or the family's (not there) he was opening himself up to being sued for malpractice, or god knows what.

The doctor wasn't sued, but sheesh, what a messed up world to live in.

I think the doctor's buddies were simply a little gun-shy. Every jurisdiction with which I'm familiar has an "implied consent" law; if you are unconscious, you automatically consent to everything. "Peril invites rescue."

[Flo]

I recall a dubious story I read where a truck crashed and the driver crushed his throat on the steering wheel. A doctor who happened to be passing by gave the guy an emergency tracheotomy. The doctors' buddies told him he might want to have just called 911 and go about his business, in which case the guy probably would have died. Why? By doing the surgery, especially without the guy's permission (unconscious) or the family's (not there) he was opening himself up to being sued for malpractice, or god knows what.

The doctor wasn't sued, but sheesh, what a messed up world to live in.


There's been a very real case, years ago, in Switzerland, where a renowned neurosurgeon found himself in big trouble for having operated some guy for a brain haemorrage with his Swiss army knife while marooned high up in the French Alps after an accident. IIRC (it's been years since I last read about it, I'd have to ask his grandson), the patient survived long enough to be sent to the hospital, and would very certainly have died had the surgeon not taken action. Despite that, the surgeon almost lost his job at the hospital and got sued.

[JJR]

There's been a very real case, years ago, in Switzerland, where a renowned neurosurgeon found himself in big trouble for having operated some guy for a brain haemorrage with his Swiss army knife while marooned high up in the French Alps after an accident. IIRC (it's been years since I last read about it, I'd have to ask his grandson), the patient survived long enough to be sent to the hospital, and would very certainly have died had the surgeon not taken action. Despite that, the surgeon almost lost his job at the hospital and got sued.

I totally believe you, dude!! :D

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm going to be skeptical of that. I did not do it, and I do not think the law should require you to do so.Where did I saw the law required it?

I am giving you my medical opinion. As a nurse practitioner, I would have called for someone to check the woman over and I described why I would have. I can't see anyone faulting you for making the best decision you knew to make at the time. I am posting what I think should have happened for you or anyone who comes across a similar situation in the future.

On a side note, there are certain laws regarding the crime of "failure to render aide". They mostly apply to car crashes and vary by state as with the Good Sam laws.

Burleigh County Assistant State’s Attorney Cynthia Feland said Mark Streeper’s failure to render aid to Ashley Berge was part of the “reckless conduct” that caused the Mandan girl’s death in 2004. (http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2006/11/13/news/update/doc4558e83334ed4073806122.txt)

“The only possible charge that could conceivably be filed is a failure to render aid, and that's a district attorney's call,” he said. "This is one of the most disgusting examples of disregard for life I've ever seen," (http://www.austininjurylaw.com/library/people-snapped-pictur.cfm)

Johnny Weldon Cates, II, was convicted of failing to stop and render aid. (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=tx&vol=app/042102&invol=1)

[Skeptic Ginger]

There's been a very real case, years ago, in Switzerland, where a renowned neurosurgeon found himself in big trouble for having operated some guy for a brain haemorrage with his Swiss army knife while marooned high up in the French Alps after an accident. IIRC (it's been years since I last read about it, I'd have to ask his grandson), the patient survived long enough to be sent to the hospital, and would very certainly have died had the surgeon not taken action. Despite that, the surgeon almost lost his job at the hospital and got sued.It would be nice to see something confirming this story. I'm sure more than one surgeon has performed emergency surgery in the field and/or been sued or in some kind of professional trouble for doing so.

But I'd hate to see us passing on another urban legend just because it sounded plausible. It would be pretty hard to perform a trepanation with a pocket knife.

[UserGoogol]

I'll take your word for it. I haven't watched television for about 15 years.

I always got a kick out of the fact that you seldom, if ever, see a character on a television show as wrapped up in characters on television as the people watching that character on television! Follow the example set by your favourite televisions doctor, DON'T WATCH TELEVISION!

When my kids were younger they would want to sit in the house for hours and watch some show or other, Power Rangers for example. I would do them one better, instead of sitting inside on a beautiful day WATCHING Power Rangers, I sent them outside to BE Power Rangers. :D

First of all, that's really not true. Although obviously scenes of characters watching TV have to be cut because it's not terribly interesting to watch, tons of characters watch TV. Actually, my favorite TV doctor is Gregory House (and TV character in general, perhaps) who spends a fairly large amount of time watching TV and doing other passive activities. (Of course, he also does do some fairly exciting stuff too, but he lets his subordinates do a lot of the actual legwork to let him just sit back and play videogames while he tries to figure out what disease the patient has.)

Secondly, that argument is utterly fallacious. TV characters don't watch that much TV because it's often not that interesting to watch someone else watch TV, but we're not TV characters. We are under no obligation to have our lives be interesting to an external observer. The only person watching our lives is us, so we should just sit back, relax, and amuse ourselves in the most efficient way possible.

Although I don't actually watch that much TV. I spend too much time online to be able to do that. :3

[Flo]

It would be nice to see something confirming this story. I'm sure more than one surgeon has performed emergency surgery in the field and/or been sued or in some kind of professional trouble for doing so.

But I'd hate to see us passing on another urban legend just because it sounded plausible. It would be pretty hard to perform a trepanation with a pocket knife.


This surgeon, from a well known family of physicians in Geneva, wrote a book about it, that I read years ago but whose title I unfortunately can't remember (I'll ask around). It is therefore possible that the "swiss army knife" bit is at least a gross simplification of the actual procedure on my part. These events took place in the late 1940s /early 50s. They were still discussed as an example in some courses about legal responsibilities and ethics when I started working in the health field some 20 years ago, but I haven't heard about it for a long time.

[qayak]

We are under no obligation to have our lives be interesting to an external observer.

You obviously don't live in my house. Here, everyone is obligated to live their life in a manner that I find interesting and, at times, exciting. I don't have television and I need some entertainment. :p

Terror too! I like to see people terrorized on a regular basis.

The only person watching our lives is us, so we should just sit back, relax, and amuse ourselves in the most efficient way possible.

Sorry. If you want to sit around all day and watch TV or play video games, it's time for you to get your own place. In your own place you can do whatever it is you like, but in my house, you do what I like.

Somebody has to be "All Powerful Master of the Universe" so it might as well be me. :D