Inorganic Life discovered?

[kjkent1]

Anyone with more detailed info on the subject of the following article, please comment:

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Physicists_Discover_Inorganic_Dust_With_Lifelike_Q ualities_999.html

[Goshawk]

I see a lot of speculation. Fun speculation, yes, but still just speculation.

"These complex, self-organized plasma structures exhibit all the necessary properties to qualify them as candidates for inorganic living matter," says Tsytovich, "they are autonomous, they reproduce and they evolve".


The same thing could be said of clouds, too. But we don't say that clouds are "alive".


The researchers hint that perhaps an inorganic form of life emerged on the primordial earth, which then acted as the template for the more familiar organic molecules we know today.


Why would organic molecules need a template? Why couldn't they have independently evolved along the same pattern, which is probably mathematically the simplest and most efficient design? If you're going to string components together into strands, and require that they achieve the maximum volume in the shortest possible distance, isn't a helix the only possible geometrical solution? I'm not a mathematician, just wondering.

[CapelDodger]

The computer model that lies at the heart of this - no physical observations are involved - is just a complex version of Life. No wonder those involved only "hint" at a template for actual life. "Plausible deniability" I think it's called.

[Cuddles]

The same thing could be said of clouds, too. But we don't say that clouds are "alive".

To be fair, it seems they are claiming more than just clouds. When clouds split the children do not inherit shape and properties from the parent cloud, but it seems the plasma thingies actually do. However, as you say, it is just speculation.

[HarryKeogh]

When clouds split the children do not inherit shape and properties from the parent cloud, but it seems the plasma thingies actually do.

Aren't the "child" clouds white, fluffy and resemble bunny rabbits if you squint your eyes just the right way?

[skeptigirl]

So, inorganic life or clues to abiogenesis? Very interesting indeed.

[simonmaal]

I'm no expert on this subject, but is the observed effect not simply the very beginnings of the evolutionary process? How did organic life begin? Did it not somehow develop out of inorganic matter?

Like I said, my knowledge if this area is very rudimentary and I am genuinely interested to learn.

[cyborg]

Organic = carbon based.

By definition organic life could not develop out of inorganic matter.

[simonmaal]

Organic = carbon based.

By definition organic life could not develop out of inorganic matter.

Why not? The author seems to think it might have:

The findings hint at the possibility that life beyond earth may not necessarily use carbon-based molecules as its building blocks

Followed by:

The researchers hint that perhaps an inorganic form of life emerged on the primordial earth, which then acted as the template for the more familiar organic molecules we know today.

This is an area in which I am a complete novice, so excuse me if I sound ignorant.

[cyborg]

Why not?

Because there is no carbon, by definition, in inorganic matter. Carbon is required for organic matter. Therefore inorganic matter cannot build organic matter - ever.

It's basic chemistry - the elements do not transmutate under normal circumstances.

What is being proposed here is a similar non-carbon-based system with characteristics similar to those we might typify for life. One is a template for another - but one cannot be built from the material of the other.

[simonmaal]

Because there is no carbon, by definition, in inorganic matter. Carbon is required for organic matter. Therefore inorganic matter cannot build organic matter - ever.

But what do you think of the claim:

The researchers hint that perhaps an inorganic form of life emerged on the primordial earth, which then acted as the template for the more familiar organic molecules we know today.

It's the word "template" I'm trying to get my head round: what is a template for organic molecules? What does this statement mean? Also, when you mention they do not transmute under normal conditions, under what conditions might they transmute?

Willing to learn :)

[cyborg]

It's the word "template" I'm trying to get my head round: what is a template for organic molecules? What does this statement mean?

A template is like a cookie-cutter - you use it to form the shape of something else but the cookie-cutter is not the cookie.

Also, when you mention they do not transmute under normal conditions, under what conditions might they transmute?

The centre of a dying star.

Not exactly ideal for forming life right?

[articulett]

Aren't the "child" clouds white, fluffy and resemble bunny rabbits if you squint your eyes just the right way?

Yeah... and bunnies replicate.... boy do they...

[articulett]

Astrobiologists have been aware that inorganic (not-carbon) based life is possible for some time. There's life as we know it... and life as we don't. All life needs to get started is a template with less than 100% fidelity in the copying and exponential out put of the best replicators. Just as computer viruses unleashed "in the wild" can take on a life of their own while being completely inorganic... so, too, could other replicators...

[Drummer]

My first thought: "It's life Jim, but not as we know it." :D

The problem here is what your definition of 'life' is. You may be surprised that there is no universally accepted definition of life. Research in abiogenesis hints that there is some sort of continuum between life and non-life. Graham Cairns-Smith' clay theory for instance has heredity, but no metabolism, no cellmembrane etc. and it has scientific support as the starting point of life. But is it life or not?
Just as it's often difficult to name a fossil as a member of one species or another, because it has properties of both, it's hard to tell when life actually begins.

[Wowbagger]

Organic = carbon based.

By definition organic life could not develop out of inorganic matter.
So, it might be more proper to call it Inorganic Life, as the title does. Assuming there is "life" there.
There is a chance there might not be anything we can call alive in there. But, the models show reason for some cautious optimisim.

[six7s]

Stephen Hawking - Public Lectures: Life in the Universe (http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/life.html)
http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/life.html


One can define Life to be an ordered system that can sustain itself against the tendency to disorder, and can reproduce itself.

That is, it can make similar, but independent, ordered systems.

To do these things, the system must convert energy in some ordered form, like food, sunlight, or electric power, into disordered energy, in the form of heat.
<snip/>
A living being usually has two elements: a set of instructions that tell the system how to sustain and reproduce itself, and a mechanism to carry out the instructions.

In biology, these two parts are called genes and metabolism. But it is worth emphasising that there need be nothing biological about them.
<snip/>
But then most forms of life, ourselves included, are parasites, in that they feed off and depend for their survival on other forms of life.

I think computer viruses should count as life.

Maybe it says something about human nature, that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive.

Talk about creating life in our own image.

[Scott Haley]

The article calls these helical strands "interstellar dust," but it also calls them plasma. I understand that plasma exists only at very high temperatures, and that you don't get temperatures like that out between the stars. Was the author confused?

--Scott

[simonmaal]

A template is like a cookie-cutter - you use it to form the shape of something else but the cookie-cutter is not the cookie.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, but I still can't get my head around it. Let's just say we have a bunch of inorganic molecules in an environment devoid of life (I'm thinking of the early days of earth here). Exactly how would these "templates" interact with organic molecules to kickstart life?

My head is starting to spin now so any thoughts you can offer will be greatly appreciated!

[cyborg]

Exactly how would these "templates" interact with organic molecules to kickstart life?

I have no idea - it's their theory. Personally I think organic chemistry is quite adequate to hoist itself up.

[simonmaal]

I have no idea - it's their theory. Personally I think organic chemistry is quite adequate to hoist itself up.

Ah, maybe the problem isn't with my understanding (or my brain deciding to freeze on me); it is with the theory itself!

Well, I will certainly be watching any developments in this field very carefully.

[Hellbound]

My two cents:

The template idea I've read about. BAsically, you have structures of inorganic molecules, parts of which are attractive to certain organic molecules. This can pull organic molecules close enough together to bond to each other. Think of it as an enzyme type reaction (least, that's my undertsanding).

[Cuddles]

The article calls these helical strands "interstellar dust," but it also calls them plasma. I understand that plasma exists only at very high temperatures, and that you don't get temperatures like that out between the stars. Was the author confused?

--Scott

A plasma is any matter made up of charged particles instead of neutral ones. The plasmas most people know of are things like stars and lightning strikes which are very hot, but the vast majority of plasmas are actually cold. Most interstellar matter is in the form of cold plasmas.

Edit: Plasma is just another phase of matter. If you compress a gas it will liquify and you have to get it much hotter to become a gas again at high pressure. Likewise, at high pressure you need to get very hot to form a plasma, but since space is extremely low density it doesn't need to be hot at all to form.

[drkitten]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, but I still can't get my head around it. Let's just say we have a bunch of inorganic molecules in an environment devoid of life (I'm thinking of the early days of earth here). Exactly how would these "templates" interact with organic molecules to kickstart life?

One prominent theory is the clay-based template, which generalizes to more or less any crystal structure. There are actually a lot of different clays, all mostly inorganic (although of course you can mix organic goop with any sort of inorganic goop you like), and they can form into several different types of crystal structures. The thing about crystal structures, of course, is that they replicate; the surface of a crystal forms a template for an identical next layer, and so on and so on.

So it's easy enough to have an inorganic replicator. But there's nothing to keep someone from pouring organic goop atop an inorganic layer, and having the organic layer fit itself to the inorganic one in a way that forms a replicating, crystalline pattern.

In this case, the term "template" is exact. It's just like making a mold out of (inorganic) plaster and use it to cast a bust out of some organic substance (like sugar syrup or gelatin). If you've ever eaten a molded salad, you know how inorganic templates can impose gross-level structure on organics. For fine structure, the procedure is slightly more complex, but not substantially different in spirit.

[cyborg]

My two cents:

The template idea I've read about. BAsically, you have structures of inorganic molecules, parts of which are attractive to certain organic molecules. This can pull organic molecules close enough together to bond to each other. Think of it as an enzyme type reaction (least, that's my undertsanding).

That hardly seems to be at all similar to what is being proposed here - which is basically that an inorganic system of life would form the basis for an organic system of life to 'graft' itself onto... somehow.

[simonmaal]

Thanks for the explanations everyone. I suppose you learn something new every day! I think my next Amazon purchase will be for books from this field.

[Hellbound]

That hardly seems to be at all similar to what is being proposed here - which is basically that an inorganic system of life would form the basis for an organic system of life to 'graft' itself onto... somehow.

Well, the example I recall was with clay crystal structures. The clay had a certain structure, and if, for example, Organic molecule A was attracted to locus A on the clay, and organic molecule B was attracteds to locus B, and organic molecule C was attracted to locus C, the the organic molecules would bond into ABC once they were all on the clay crystal structure.

Think of it like a jigsaw puzzle maybe? The orginal puzzle is the clay "template". Organic molecules with similar structures to the "pieces" int he clay would tend to lay on top of the clay counterparts. So, two of the organics next to each other would interlock, and eventually you could get an organic copy of the clay jigsaw.

Now, that's what I know of the template idea, and I have no clue how it would apply to plasma. Just tossing in an explanation I thought might help.

[drkitten]

That hardly seems to be at all similar to what is being proposed here - which is basically that an inorganic system of life would form the basis for an organic system of life to 'graft' itself onto... somehow.

Er,....

No, it isn't. As far as I can tell, you are misreading the proposal. What has been discovered is an inorganic physical structure that mimicks the chemical properties of life. If you have an inorganic physical structure, it's an easy step to a mixed inorganic-and-organic structure (pour a thin layer of Jell-o into the mold) and then to a purely organic structure.

[cyborg]

Is it the properties or the shape that is important here? If it's just the shape then the properties of how the structure arose seem rather incidental if it's to serve as a template for how an organic structure should form around it.

[Hellbound]

Well, I'm not the best at accurate analogies :)

I'll defer to drkitten on any and all of this. IF my answers disagree with drk's, then I'm wrong :)

And it seems I'm wandering afield anyway.

However, there is some research being done now into the arisal of life. A recent SciAm (Within the last year,I'll look for which one, don't have my issues handy now) mentioned research intot he possibility that a metabolism or energy cycle might be the initial replicator, with an information storage system coming along later (as opposed to current models which look for a replicating molecule, then how that might have developed into a metabolism). In this type of scenario, I could see the plasma idea fitting into the role of template as organic molecules were incorporated into the reaction cycle or repalced certain components of the reaction cycle. Dunno the validity of this, though...I'm just tossing ideas out :)

[drkitten]

Is it the properties or the shape that is important here?

Shape isn't a property?

When you come down to the lowest levels of p-chem, shape and charge are about the only properties that exist. Two substances hold together because their shapes and charge distributions are compatible. Teflon would make a lousy substance for an organic template because organics don't stick well to it. Clay is much "stickier" and would make a much better substrate.

[cyborg]

Shape isn't a property?

Not in that sentence fragment ;)

[kjkent1]

Update -- I found the original scientific paper online, at:

http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1367-2630/9/8/263/njp7_8_263.pdf

Hopefully, this will stimulate more discussion.

[Ichneumonwasp]

Way cool.

Maybe Crick was right.

[Jimbo07]

Is it the properties or the shape that is important here? If it's just the shape then the properties of how the structure arose seem rather incidental if it's to serve as a template for how an organic structure should form around it.

I thought shape (think protein folding) was both complex and incredibly important in understanding the behaviour of complex molecules...

[scratchy]

That hardly seems to be at all similar to what is being proposed here - which is basically that an inorganic system of life would form the basis for an organic system of life to 'graft' itself onto... somehow.
Maybe the inorganic life somehow made use of carbon and other stuff in a gradually more advanced way, untill it had engineered molecules so advanced they cold go on by themselves.....?