God's Warriors

[UnrepentantSinner]

Did any of you watch CNN's God's Warriors (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/gods.warriors/)? I caught part of the Jewish and Muslim installments plus parts of Christiane Amanpour's Larry King interview, but I missed tonights Christian episode.

Knowing CNN I'll be able to watch it again and again and again on a weekend, but if any of you saw all three parts I'd love to get a discussion going about it.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Did no one watch this series?

[Dumbledore]

I did not watch the series, but I think that it is interesting that they call them god warriors. Whats with that???!:)

[modecom]

Did no one watch this series?

I'm watching the christian episode now and it makes me sick, so many mentally deluded fundamental idiots.

Having said that, I am sure that you, UnrepentantSinner, and the other religious apologists and christ punchers on this forum will find a way of defending the loony.

[Bri]

I saw all three. I thought the series was well-done, and adequately portrayed the dangers of radical fundamentalism within any religion. Dumbledore, they are referred to as God's warriors because they (either figuratively or literally) have decided to fight in the name of their religion.

Although the program did show that no religion is immune from radical fundamentalism, I don't personally think it adequately addressed the questions (possibly misconceptions?) of why there seem to be a disproportionate number of Muslim radical fundamentalists or why few mainstream Muslims seem to speak out against the radicals.

-Bri

[sinclairmcevoy]

I'm watching the christian episode now and it makes me sick, so many mentally deluded fundamental idiots.

Having said that, I am sure that you, UnrepentantSinner, and the other religious apologists and christ punchers on this forum will find a way of defending the loony.
What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.

[Bri]

I have no problem with people living their lives any way they want. However, I do have a problem with someone else wanting to force me to live my life the way they want me to live my life.

-Bri

[Darth Rotor]

I saw all three. I thought the series was well-done, and adequately portrayed the dangers of radical fundamentalism within any religion. Dumbledore, they are referred to as God's warriors because they (either figuratively or literally) have decided to fight in the name of their religion.

Although the program did show that no religion is immune from radical fundamentalism, I don't personally think it adequately addressed the questions (possibly misconceptions?) of why there seem to be a disproportionate number of Muslim radical fundamentalists or why few mainstream Muslims seem to speak out against the radicals.

-Bri
I wonder if she'll do one on Bhudda's Beserkers next. :D How about the soon to be published "Krishna's Commandos."

I bet the action figures will be a big seller.

DR

[quixotecoyote]

What was apparent to me from watching them was how she had to change focus when she switched to Christians in America.

[exaggerated for emphasis]
Day 1. Jews want to beat the hell out of Palestinians

Day 2. Muslims want to beat the hell out of everyone else + each other.

Day 3. Christians want to improperly influence environmental legislation.

It was also interesting that she seemed to spend proportionately more time talking to 'sympathetic' Christians than she did in the other segments.

[JESTERKING45]

I watched the Muslim part and last night I watched most of the christian one (big argument) when it got to the Ron Luce part becuase I contention is that he is a moron. Plus he's really offensive. He acually said this Quote "Mtv doesn't care if you (teenage girls) dress certain way and get date raped." He said this in an auditorium of thousands of teenagers, and again said basically the same thing on Joyce Myers TV show. I see Ron Luce I see someone who's almost like a cult leader, seriously the whole ideology of this man seems to be that if you drink, smoke, or have premarital sex that it's not YOUR responsibility it's awful music and movies and video games. The whole thing seems just a trifle bit absurd. One of my problems though (asside from the idiocy of Rev. Whatever his name was saying that americas moral problems are due to social darwinism. Seriously?) was Karen Armstrong's assertion that Secularism has failed some of these christians. Really? How many of them have ever tried? I don't get that. Doesn't make any sense to me. Don't even get me started on Pastor can't remember his name and don't really care saying that "secular values are alien to america and that I'm an illegal alien." What an ***** retard. Oh yeah and banning gay marriage isn't really banning something it's pretecting something. Right :eek:

[Bri]

In all three segments, I was struck by similarities among very devout people who were all previously secular. They all said that they felt that something was missing in their secular life, or that they felt their secular life didn't offer them moral boundaries.

Of course, I know plenty of secular people who don't feel that way, but I found the trend towards religion from secularism interesting and wonder what the numbers are compared to those becoming more secular.

-Bri

[Polaris]

What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.

Why exactly is sex to be equated with stomping someone's face in or getting AIDS/frying your nervous system with heroin?

[UnrepentantSinner]

What was apparent to me from watching them was how she had to change focus when she switched to Christians in America.

[exaggerated for emphasis]
Day 1. Jews want to beat the hell out of Palestinians

Day 2. Muslims want to beat the hell out of everyone else + each other.

Day 3. Christians want to improperly influence environmental legislation.

It was also interesting that she seemed to spend proportionately more time talking to 'sympathetic' Christians than she did in the other segments.

I'll have to catch that installment. Of what I saw for the Jewish and Muslim ones she did seem to give a lot of time to those opposed to radical fundamentalism.

One possibility is that Kach etc. want to create Greater Israel, and the Muslims envision a new Caliphate, while Christians in America are still trying, 35 years later, to overturn Roe v. Wade and get Creationism back into schools. Of course the latter have uncle Bushie doing their Crusader work for them so they might be more complacent on the territorial front. ;)

[articulett]

What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.

Because Religion doesn't teach our youth to be good people... it doesn't work as advertised. And secular societies are healthier. You don't need to agree with these facts, just provide an iota of evidence to the contrary. Religion offers no protection from the dysfunction you mention. There's nothing wrong with teaching the youth good values--that's why we have secularism. Besides, religionists all think they have better values than those who believe differently, but the facts don't bear this our at all.

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

[articulett]

In all three segments, I was struck by similarities among very devout people who were all previously secular. They all said that they felt that something was missing in their secular life, or that they felt their secular life didn't offer them moral boundaries.

Of course, I know plenty of secular people who don't feel that way, but I found the trend towards religion from secularism interesting and wonder what the numbers are compared to those becoming more secular.

-Bri

Yes, it's the big lies told about non-believers to keep the faithful from questioning the big lie.

[articulett]

Why exactly is sex to be equated with stomping someone's face in or getting AIDS/frying your nervous system with heroin?

Well the commandments and scriptures don't forbid the latter--just stuff like not eating ham or not working on Sunday or worshiping the invisible guy with the right name... and no coveting.

Pedophilia, torture, bigotry, oppression, dishonesty for god, threatening trusting people with hell-- that's fine of course. Those things didn't make the top ten no-no's in any of those fabulous examples of "morality".

[UnrepentantSinner]

Please stop spamming my thread.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I did not watch the series, but I think that it is interesting that they call them god warriors. Whats with that???!:)Well for the Jews and Muslims it was because the focus was on literal violence to defend or spread your fundamentalist beliefs. For the Christians there was a bit of that with more focus on fighting for a 'Christian State' in the US. I saw all 3 segments tonight, 6 hours, (while cleaning the house.) That was downright frightening. It's hard to say how prevalent the fundies are in relation to the masses but of the fundies they featured, it was pretty bad.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I saw all three. I thought the series was well-done, and adequately portrayed the dangers of radical fundamentalism within any religion. Dumbledore, they are referred to as God's warriors because they (either figuratively or literally) have decided to fight in the name of their religion.

Although the program did show that no religion is immune from radical fundamentalism, I don't personally think it adequately addressed the questions (possibly misconceptions?) of why there seem to be a disproportionate number of Muslim radical fundamentalists or why few mainstream Muslims seem to speak out against the radicals.

-BriI think they showed an equally radical Jewish crowd. I believe it just happens to be current events with those two groups. If it were a different slice of history we may have seen just as much Christian violence and no one speaking out. The Inquisition and witch trials come to mind.

What was the most frightening is just how crazy fundies are at the moment. Couple that with the nuclear age and the Arab Israeli conflict and I think I need a bigger stockpile of disaster supplies. I was only planning for the 3 day earthquake aftermath. Maybe I should consider something on a bigger scale.

[Skeptic Ginger]

What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.
Re the sex ed issues, that upset father they interviewed only gave his version of events. I doubt the class he said he sat in on was really telling his daughter that sex was fine if you just use a condom. I would imagine the actual class just didn't instill enough fear and distortion in the kids for that fundie's taste.

The typical Evangelical call is for abstinence only education. Some Evangelicals claim teaching kids about condoms is the equivalent of teaching them how to sin and avoid God's wrath. They would rather the kids had the threat of HIV as a deterrent to sex. But research shows it is not a deterrent and only leads to more HIV, not less premarital sex.

Our schools require the parent's permission to teach sex ed and they have it after regular school hours. At least that way someone else's idea of sin doesn't interfere with my child's education.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I wonder if she'll do one on Bhudda's Beserkers next. :D How about the soon to be published "Krishna's Commandos."

I bet the action figures will be a big seller.

DR
There actually is a lot of violence between the Hindus and Muslims currently. And Hinduism is practiced by more people than the Jewish religion currently. They should have included Hinduism but this is a Judeo-Christian centric society. It's too bad. It could have been very interesting.

[Drummer]

What is so wrong with teaching the youth of our nations to be good people? Sex, drugs and violence are not promoted, at least from what I saw of the Christian episode. You don't need to be religious to agree with someone's approach to a problem.

Nothing wrong with that (except the sex bit, but let's not get into that right now), but religion doesn't teach that. Religion doesn't teach that drugs and violence are bad. It teaches blind obedience to a supreme being and it's rules, both reasonable and stupid. Youth that get taught out of the bible that drugs are bad have no clue why, apart from that God says you shouldn't. Since they are also taught that God/ Jesus forgives sin, what's to stop them then from a little experimenting and asking for forgiveness later on? And as for violence, you ought to read Sam Harris on that. Religions are hostile to people with different religions/ ideas about the world almost by definition. They automatically divide the world in us and them. Not exactly a basis for a peaceful society.

[Bri]

I think they showed an equally radical Jewish crowd.

That's the problem with this type of reporting. In order to fill up the same amount of time, they showed as many radicals as they could, but there was no mention as to how many radicals there are among the non-radicals.

There are few Jewish terrorists, as evidenced by the fact that they had to show the group that was unsuccessful at their attempt to blow up the girl's school (they were found guilty by an Israeli court are now spending their lives in an Israeli prison).

A large portion of the show was about Jewish lobby groups and the strange alliance between those groups and fundamentalist Christians.

So, I wouldn't say that they showed an equally radical Jewish crowd.

I believe it just happens to be current events with those two groups. If it were a different slice of history we may have seen just as much Christian violence and no one speaking out. The Inquisition and witch trials come to mind.

Yes, historically Christianity has been just as violent, if not moreso.

Of course, there have been many violent radical groups throughout history, and not all of them justified their behavior by quoting verses from religious holy books, so I don't think the problem of radicalism is isolated to religion.

-Bri

[blobru]

...
A large portion of the show was about Jewish lobby groups and the strange alliance between those groups and fundamentalist Christians.
...

I only saw the Christian episode and was only half paying attention, but that was one of three segments that caught my eye/ear. I didn't quite catch the rationale though: was it the usual Israel is fulfillment of prophecy and one step closer to Rapture?

I did get the impression the whole 2-hours had been pitched as an "America's Craazziest Christians" contest. If so, Ron Luce won the booby prize hands down. Targetting SanFran, Yankee 'Sodom & Gomorrah', with tearful 11-year-olds chanting "Our God is an awe-some Go-od" in an effort to what -- teach these kids hatred before they're secularised into believing there's no such thing as sin? -- downright pathetic. I'm sorry he hates himself because he had too much fun before he found God, but now to enlist 11-year-olds in his gay-bashing, self-hating crusade... made me want to throw up.

For me the pick of the litter was the conservative theologian turned preacher who felt inspired to teach the 'radical' message that fighting poverty was the most important thing a Christian could do. And then losing half his congregation! It's not hard to imagine Christ nailed to the cross giving him a wink and a two thumbs up.

[Gurdur]

Having said that, I am sure that you, UnrepentantSinner, and the other religious apologists and christ punchers on this forum will find a way of defending the loony.


More than a bit of a prejudiced comment, in the precise sense and in the extended sense, what what?
_________


I saw the series, much of it; it was very good and obviously tried hard to give a good all-round picture. One interesting failure was a failure to give a good overview of mainstreams, instead the program focused on fundies and on opposition to fundies within their own religions; a pic of the mainstreams may well have been more boring in comparison, but would have been useful for a rounded pic.

All in all, it was very worthwhile watching it, and it gave a useful sense of history and timelines too, as well as of interplays, so necessary to understanding escalations.

[Bri]

I only saw the Christian episode and was only half paying attention, but that was one of three segments that caught my eye/ear. I didn't quite catch the rationale though: was it the usual Israel is fulfillment of prophecy and one step closer to Rapture?

Yup. Truly bizarre situation, because the fundamentalist Christians believe that although the Jews are necessary to fulfill the prophecy, the Jews are going to go to hell if they don't convert to Christianity. The Jews, being the practical folk they are, gladly take their money and aren't overly worried about going to hell.

I'm sorry he hates himself because he had too much fun before he found God, but now to enlist 11-year-olds in his gay-bashing, self-hating crusade... made me want to throw up.

You and many others, I'm afraid. I've said it before: I don't care what others believe as long as those beliefs don't include interfering with my beliefs. Clearly, a lot of Christians do want to impose their beliefs on others.

For me the pick of the litter was the conservative theologian turned preacher who felt inspired to teach the 'radical' message that fighting poverty was the most important thing a Christian could do. And then losing half his congregation! It's not hard to imagine Christ nailed to the cross giving him a wink and a two thumbs up.

I agree. That segment was pretty interesting. I was shocked that his congregation was so put off by the suggestion that Jesus' message may have been primarily about improving the world rather than imposing their beliefs on others that he lost half of his congregation! The good news is that his congregation soon doubled back to what it had been previously, so there is some hope.

-Bri

[Bri]

One interesting failure was a failure to give a good overview of mainstreams, instead the program focused on fundies and on opposition to fundies within their own religions; a pic of the mainstreams may well have been more boring in comparison, but would have been useful for a rounded pic.

I agree, but the subject of "God's Warriors" was the fundamentalists and radicals, so it makes sense that they didn't spend a lot of time talking about the mainstream. That said, I don't think they were very clear on what the shows were actually about, so this may have been missed by a lot of people who may now have a rather inaccurate view of the religions (particularly if they only saw one of them, like the Islam one). I also think a better indication of the relative numbers of fundamentalists, radicals, and mainstream believers of each religion would have been useful and provided a more accurate picture.

-Bri

[Complexity]

Let's not forget the crusades.

The war with Iraq is the most recent crusade, if we need something current.

[UnrepentantSinner]

There actually is a lot of violence between the Hindus and Muslims currently. And Hinduism is practiced by more people than the Jewish religion currently. They should have included Hinduism but this is a Judeo-Christian centric society. It's too bad. It could have been very interesting.

That is a very salient observation but I think the focus was on the Abrahamic religions which would make the focus "Western" more than Judeo-Christian for the series.

More than a bit of a prejudiced comment, in the precise sense and in the extended sense, what what?

It's either an ironic or bizarre comment based on whether that poster was parodying our more virulent God-Haters or agreeing with them.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Let's not forget the crusades.

The war with Iraq is the most recent crusade, if we need something current.

I'm guessing you didn't watch the series or have any idea of what the topic it investigated is. :rolleyes:

[Complexity]

I watched five minutes of the Jewish segment. That was enough.

The second line of my post is most relevant to the series.

Do you have a point?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sometimes a program is intended to be about the fundamentalist extremists and not about Jews and Muslims and Christians. I don't recall any inference these people represented the majority of any group.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Do you have a point?

Coming from someone who offers a context free "Don't forget the Crusades" (and no, your Iraq comment didn't add value... though you did have a point :)) this question is dripping with irony.

I'll also note that I posted this earlier.
One possibility is that Kach etc. want to create Greater Israel, and the Muslims envision a new Caliphate, while Christians in America are still trying, 35 years later, to overturn Roe v. Wade and get Creationism back into schools. Of course the latter have uncle Bushie doing their Crusader work for them so they might be more complacent on the territorial front.

[Complexity]

Sigh... I keep forgetting that some people need to have it spelled out.

The context was this thread, especially posts 9 and 19.

Having come up with the example of the current war as a crusade (congratulations, by the way), are you pretending that you didn't understand what I wrote in my post, or are you merely distressed that I didn't use some unnecessary words to pad the idea?

By the way, when you asked someone to, "Please stop spamming my thread.", you erred.

No one had been spamming your thread. I don't think you know what the word means.

It isn't your thread. You started it, but you don't own it. Don't be a control freak.

Nothing else at this time.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Let me, instead of spelling it out for you use an acronym - LTFU.

And Artie was spamming this thread because she's been spewing the same s*** across a number of threads and forums which in my book is spam.

How about in the future you use the quote... or.. :eek:.. even the multi-quote function and quote those posts you wish to comment on rather than a tangental, stream of conciousness - "but what about X" post?

[Bri]

I have to admit that I didn't know what the heck you were responding too either, Complexity. Now that you point out the posts to which you were responding (the closest of which was 9 posts prior to your post) it makes sense, but it would have helped to use the quote/multiquote option to give your post some context.

Now, I officially call an end to the derail!

-Bri

[Complexity]

It would have been clearer if I'd quoted - 19 would have been sufficient.

articulett's posts were quite fine. Not derails, and certainly not spam.

My objections to UnrepentantSinner stand.

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

And Artie was spamming this thread because she's been spewing the same s*** across a number of threads and forums which in my book is spam....Well this answers my question, were you joking when you made the, "stop spamming" comment.

From someone who repeats my same views quite often in multiple threads I just see someone who has a particular opinion. That isn't spamming.

Though I do think in this case some of Artic's opinion is a bit too broad of a brush stroke. And that's coming from a pretty adamant atheist.