Alcohol, how much is too much?

[kittynh]

When I was last in Europe there was a show on television about how little alcohol people, especially women, could safely consume.

I always thought if you weren't an alcoholic, and didn't drive drunk, it didn't matter how much you drank. Perhaps a worry about caloric content, but a few beers everynight wasn't going to hurt you.

The show (BBC) said that for a woman, 4 glasses of wine a week, or beers was the LIMIT. Per week.

A good buzz on the weekends was dead OUT.

Men got a little more leeway, but still, it seemed an impossibly small amount was "safe". The show was looking at long term damage to liver function.

I imagine people have been drinking a few beers a night for a long time, yet I see no public health crisis.

So, how much is too much really? As a person that has perhaps 3 beers a month I'm not worried, but I have a lot of friends that certainly have a glass or two every evening, and I think they would laugh if I pointed out that there might be a health issue.

[kellyb]

My wild guess would be that it's a spectrum of risk. What you saw was probably talking about the minimum where damage occurs in some people.

There's also the issue of how livers can heal quite well though a long period of "treating them very nicely" as long as the damage wasn't pushed too far initially.

[geni]

Your problem is your use of the term safe. What percentage of risk do you view as acceptable?

[BrianSI]

The limit would be based on the level that causes alcohol poisoning. Which is when there's too much for the liver to handle. When I trained to be a bar tender in TX, there was a state required (and administered) 4 hour class on the laws for selling / serving alcohol. They showed a chart for how many drinks per hour people of different weights could consume before going over the legal limit. The basic teaching was that for just about any weight person, to serve a single person more than four drinks (1/4 ounce shot of liquor per drink or one beer) in an hour, they would be over the legal limit (which was .1 at that time). And it was the bartender's responsibility to not serve them another drink for at least an hour. And then only one per hour thereafter.

Hah ... try finding a bar on a Friday night where the bartender can keep track of who's gotten more than four drinks in an hour.

I have no idea how the body is affected by repeated exposure to alcohol, if the person does allow their liver to keep up (and eats something ... and drinks water).

[fls]

When I was last in Europe there was a show on television about how little alcohol people, especially women, could safely consume.

I always thought if you weren't an alcoholic, and didn't drive drunk, it didn't matter how much you drank. Perhaps a worry about caloric content, but a few beers everynight wasn't going to hurt you.

The show (BBC) said that for a woman, 4 glasses of wine a week, or beers was the LIMIT. Per week.

A good buzz on the weekends was dead OUT.

Men got a little more leeway, but still, it seemed an impossibly small amount was "safe". The show was looking at long term damage to liver function.

I imagine people have been drinking a few beers a night for a long time, yet I see no public health crisis.

So, how much is too much really? As a person that has perhaps 3 beers a month I'm not worried, but I have a lot of friends that certainly have a glass or two every evening, and I think they would laugh if I pointed out that there might be a health issue.

What was the agenda of the people who produced this?

If they were talking about long term liver damage, their numbers are way low.

Linda

[geni]

What was the agenda of the people who produced this?


Sounds like the Department of Health. So the agenda would be keeping hospital admissions down.


If they were talking about long term liver damage, their numbers are way low.


Evidences? I think the NHS has a pretty good idea as what constitutes safe levels.

[Madalch]

Four glasses of wine per week.

Well, if you add the first twenty or so years of my life (in which I hardly ever drank), it would average out to about that....

[patrick767]

The basic teaching was that for just about any weight person, to serve a single person more than four drinks (1/4 ounce shot of liquor per drink or one beer) in an hour,

Minor correction... a shot is 1.5 oz (though many bars now make it only 1 oz) and 1.5 oz of the average liquor (80 proof) is equivalent in alcohol to 12 oz of a 5% abv beer.

[elgarak]

kittynh,

For which type of risk were those limits intended? Risk of heart related diseases? Colon cancer? Ulcers? Liver disease? Altzheimer's before age 50, 60, 70?

That's a big problem with these limits (for me): In the studies, scientists usually concentrate on one group of diseases only (Why? To keep things simple. The more factors, the tougher the statistics)... but when quoted in mainstream media, this limitation is downplayed or removed. What if the risk for Altzheimer's goes up, but the risk of heart problems goes down the same factor?

[Hindmost]

Oh goody...something else that is going to kill me. LJ and I have been splitting about three bottles of wine a week for a long time. Heart healthy reds. I look to France for data...

glenn:(

[fls]

Sounds like the Department of Health. So the agenda would be keeping hospital admissions down.

Do you have a reference for the show? It doesn't sound right, unless the OP got the information incorrect.

Evidences? I think the NHS has a pretty good idea as what constitutes safe levels.

This (http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-3/209-219.pdf) is some information from the US.

The NHS site says not more than 2-3 drinks per day for women and 3-4 for men, with a 48 hour respite after a binge. That sounds different from what was presented in the OP.

Linda

[JoeEllison]

I remember getting a screening for something-or-other about 10 years ago, and the doctor asked me how many drinks I was having per week. Since I was 22 at the time, the number was probably around 50-60 per week. So, I was diagnosed as being an alcoholic, on top of whatever else I went in for. When I talked to the specialist, he brought it up, and after confirming that I wasn't having alcohol-related problems at work or drinking all 50 beers in one night, we came to the conclusion that the first doctor must have been an incredibly lonely and boring guy when he was in college. :)

[Beausoleil]

14 units/week for women, 21 units/week for men. At least one day with no alcohol. That's the advice I recollect from the NHS.

A unit is a small glass of wine. A pint of average British beer is 2 units.

In reply to the opening post - it depends what you mean by a glass. Many "glasses" of wine are more than 2 units of alcohol, so if you have 4 of them a week you could be approaching your limit.

[tracer]

The show (BBC) said that for a woman, 4 glasses of wine a week, or beers was the LIMIT. Per week.

A good buzz on the weekends was dead OUT.

Men got a little more leeway, but still, it seemed an impossibly small amount was "safe". The show was looking at long term damage to liver function.

Sounds just like our American media.

"If you have more than one Oreo cookie per week, you are going to die a horrible death from congestive heart failure at age 33! OH NOES!!!111one1"

[Dogdoctor]

There is a J shaped mortality curve associated drinking alcohol. If you drink no alcohol you have the same average mortality as a woman drinking 2 drinks per day or a man drinking 4 drinks per day. Maximum health benefit is from one drink per day for females and 2 drinks per day for males (this is from memory)

eta: this doesn't average out so you can't drink 14 drinks in one night and get the same health benefits. :)

[kellyb]

Ok...here's something sort of new on drinking and bowel cancer:

http://news.independent.co.uk/health/article2819599.ece

A study published yesterday suggests that a daily pint of beer or large glass of wine increases the risk of bowel cancer by 10 per cent. Two pints or two large glasses of wine increases the risk by 25 per cent, according to the results of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition study, which questioned almost 480,000 people across 10 European countries about their drinking habits.

This leaves ordinary drinkers in a difficult position. In addition to bowel cancer, a drink a day is known to increase the risk of breast cancer in women by 7 per cent, and some other cancers. Bowel cancer is the second-most common form of the disease in men and women with 35,000 new cases a year and 16,000 deaths. Breast cancer is the commonest cancer in women with 40,000 new cases and 12,000 deaths. Heart disease and stroke kill more than 200,000 people a year.

[Dogdoctor]

I't all about tradeofffs

[Paulhoff]

You’ve had too much when you brush something off you shoulder and find out it is the floor.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Damien Evans]

You’ve had too much when you brush something off you shoulder and find out it is the floor.

Paul

:) :) :)

Correction: you've had too much when you can't get to the bathroom quickly enough

[Ysidro]

I don't drink at all. Never have, beyond a taste of this or that just to see if I actually wanted to start drinking. I don't.

What does this mean? One glass of <insert favorite booze> is too much for me. ;)

[Graham Jackman]

The following link is to an article about a report in the Br.J. Cancer and the relationship between the risk of kidney cancer and alcohol consumption.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/study-finds-alcohol-may-lower-risk-of-kidney-cancer/2007/08/25/1187462562881.html


This just emphasises that there are no hard and fast answers and that you cannot live your life according to the results of just one report. Our individual response to alcohol, as just one example, is hard to predict and statistical results don't necessarily apply to a particular individual. The important thing is to try to vary your food intake and not to take any one item to the point, where clear dangers exist. If you don't want to drink alcohol, that's fine but don't evangelise about it. Don't drink to the point, where it affects your ability to function normally or makes you obnoxious - particularly in countries where firearms and violence are common. That can really affect your life expectancy. You can take all the precautions you like, but disease can still rise up and bite you on the backside. To quote from Johnny Mortimer in the guise of Rumpole of the Bailey - "There is no pleasure worth the forgoing in return for an extra 3 years in a nursing home."

[Normal Dude]

You've had too much when you manage to pick up a girl, head back to her place, drink too much tequila, and then spend the rest of the night parked in front of her toilet.

Nope, I didn't do that... no sirrrrrre..

[wilks]

I remember getting a screening for something-or-other about 10 years ago, and the doctor asked me how many drinks I was having per week. Since I was 22 at the time, the number was probably around 50-60 per week. So, I was diagnosed as being an alcoholic, on top of whatever else I went in for. When I talked to the specialist, he brought it up, and after confirming that I wasn't having alcohol-related problems at work or drinking all 50 beers in one night, we came to the conclusion that the first doctor must have been an incredibly lonely and boring guy when he was in college. :)

Hmmm. Looking at it another way - the first doc and his moderately drinking friends probably had an enjoyable and productive time at college while the rest of the students were slobbing around being drunk and silly. I would have to ask why you think it is necessary to have a drink in order to enjoy life or be sociable? Sounds like the definition of an alcoholic to me.

As to the harm it does - in the UK at least there is a culture of binge drinking and also a rise in alcoholic liver disease which is increasingly being found in younger people. Certainly the Department of Health is linking the two.

[roger]

Too much :confused:

[UltraTexan]

You've had too much when you manage to pick up a girl, head back to her place, drink too much tequila, and then spend the rest of the night parked in front of her toilet.

Nope, I didn't do that... no sirrrrrre..

Or when you wake up in Mexico sleeping in the back of your own truck on top of a bunch of firewood?

I didn't do that either..

>.>

<.<

[JoeEllison]

Hmmm. Looking at it another way - the first doc and his moderately drinking friends probably had an enjoyable and productive time at college while the rest of the students were slobbing around being drunk and silly. I would have to ask why you think it is necessary to have a drink in order to enjoy life or be sociable? Sounds like the definition of an alcoholic to me.

As to the harm it does - in the UK at least there is a culture of binge drinking and also a rise in alcoholic liver disease which is increasingly being found in younger people. Certainly the Department of Health is linking the two.Nice try. Since both docs managed to graduate, I can't see how you can accuse one of being unproductive or "slobbing around". Sounds to me like you're either jealous or a recovering alcoholic(or related to an alcoholic).

[Wudang]

You might wish to consider the UK definition of binge drinking. A statistician wrote an article which pointed out that she'd a "binge drinking session" the night before because she had a sherry before dinner then split a bottle of wine with her husband.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4200056.stm

[geni]

You might wish to consider the UK definition of binge drinking. A statistician wrote an article which pointed out that she'd a "binge drinking session" the night before because she had a sherry before dinner then split a bottle of wine with her husband.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4200056.stm



I'd define binge drinking as deliberately drinking enough to lose self-control and self-respect

I think the NHS is in a better position to define binge drinking than a statistician.

[rudar]

I think there was a Canadian article claiming binge drinking was having five drinks on one occasion in the past month... Granted I work at a pub, but we all agreed that five drinks was what we had when we wanted to stay sober for the night...

``Giving up drinking, smoking, and womanizing won't make you live longer. It'll just feel that way'' --- can't remember the attribution (which was probably apocryphal anyway...)

[Puppycow]

Drinking in moderation is associated with greater longevity (http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/HealthIssues/1106591095.html)

The show was looking at long term damage to liver function.
As long as you don't completely destroy your liver, you are probably more likely to die from heart disease or clogged arteries. So only focussing on the liver ignores the larger picture.

[negativ]

I heard that you will live forever if you never drink or smoke or masturbate.

[Cainkane1]

I usually drink four beers on Friday after work. I can't drink anymore than that because it mixes up with my meds and makes me feel like Hell the next day. I do enjoy those four good beers a week though.

[DavidS]

I heard that you will live forever if you never drink or smoke or masturbate.
Not true. That only makes it seem like forever.

[orphia nay]

"An alcoholic is someone who drinks more than you do." - W.G.P.

[JoeEllison]

You know when I know I've drank too much? When I can't feel my legs... (1:17)4hAACmnn0rw

[Slimething]

Risk assessment is a tricky thing. There are a few posters who have questioned the endpoint that the NHS is using and that's the real crux of it. They're not always right and it's a very good question to ask. For all we know, they're calculating the risk to a person who is recovering from hepatitis.

I'll stay with my favorite risk assessor, Mark Twain, who wrote:


Too much of anything is bad, but too much whiskey is just enough!

[wilks]

Nice try. Since both docs managed to graduate, I can't see how you can accuse one of being unproductive or "slobbing around". Sounds to me like you're either jealous or a recovering alcoholic(or related to an alcoholic).

Isn't there a joke that goes something like
'What do you call the medic that graduated bottom of his class?'
Answer 'Doctor'.

Your post does seem to sum up the attitudes of those immersed in the binge drinking culture though. According to you, if I show the slightest disapproval then I'm either jealous or alcoholic myself.

Jealous of being a drunken slob? Why ever would I be? I do enjoy my occasional glass of wine but I don't want to get drunk :)
No, I'm not alcoholic or related to an alcoholic either - just to someone who deals every day with the consequences of alcohol on a hospital ward. Not pretty.

[Wudang]

I think the NHS is in a better position to define binge drinking than a statistician.

Argument from authority

[JoeEllison]

Isn't there a joke that goes something like
'What do you call the medic that graduated bottom of his class?'
Answer 'Doctor'.

Your post does seem to sum up the attitudes of those immersed in the binge drinking culture though. According to you, if I show the slightest disapproval then I'm either jealous or alcoholic myself.

Jealous of being a drunken slob? Why ever would I be? I do enjoy my occasional glass of wine but I don't want to get drunk :)
No, I'm not alcoholic or related to an alcoholic either - just to someone who deals every day with the consequences of alcohol on a hospital ward. Not pretty.
Are all of your posts so insulting, aggressive, and dishonest? Or just the ones about alcohol?

[geni]

Argument from authority

In this case the authority is legit. The NHS and DOH employs large numbers of experts in public health and has access to large datasets. Generaly safe to assume that if they doin't know what they are talking about no one else does either.

[joobz]

I heard that you will live forever if you never drink or smoke or masturbate.
at the same time?

[casebro]

Lately I've been using the 'Cholesterol Medication Studies' as the benchmark by which I judge other studies.

For all of the hype involved with cholesterol medications, it comes down to 200 patient years of treatment to gain ONE patient year of life extension. And that is with a supposed 33% lower risk. So just how much good is a 7% lessening of a colon cancer risk going to do for ME? Versus the social benefits of the release of endorphines brought on by the occasional use of alcohol?

Alcohol, helping people enjoy life for 6,000 years ! At minimal cost.

[Hapexamendios]

How much is too much?

This much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGRTIHh32Is

[wilks]

Are all of your posts so insulting, aggressive, and dishonest? Or just the ones about alcohol?

I'm sorry, I can understand that you might think I'm being insulting if I refer to someone who has 50-60 drinks a week as a drunken slob - that was perhaps a bit strong but was an immediate and honest reaction to your post. If it insults you then I apologise. But aggressive and dishonest? I don't think so.
I wonder if I'm touching a nerve? Do you still drink as much?

[Slimething]

In this case the authority is legit. The NHS and DOH employs large numbers of experts in public health and has access to large datasets. Generaly safe to assume that if they doin't know what they are talking about no one else does either.

Yes and no. Questioning an assessors underlying assumptions is good science. It's not unknown for even a department within a respected organization to have their own agenda. Remember that, even with practices as dicey as computer modeling, replication of results by an independent lab is a hallmark of good science.

[Wudang]

Yes and no. Questioning an assessors underlying assumptions is good science


And this is the same NHS that runs homeopathic hospitals. But I guess since they're the experts then homeopathy must be okay.

[BrianSI]

Minor correction... a shot is 1.5 oz (though many bars now make it only 1 oz) and 1.5 oz of the average liquor (80 proof) is equivalent in alcohol to 12 oz of a 5% abv beer.

I accept that as the proper amount for good mixing ... but the legal "shot" in TX at that time was 1 1/4 ounce. May have changed since then, but I doubt they would have actually increased it (for some reason).

In TX, it wasn't just a concern for limiting either. It was considered illegal to serve (i.e. sell) less than 1 1/4 ounce also.

[geni]

And this is the same NHS that runs homeopathic hospitals. But I guess since they're the experts then homeopathy must be okay.

Nope.

1)they keep trying to close them
2)never been through the normal NHS review procedures.

"I'd define binge drinking as deliberately drinking enough to lose self-control and self-respect"

Not a good defintion at all. Firstly I don't belive there is any known mechanism by which the intention of the Dricker impacts the effect ethonal on the body. Secondly both self control and self respect are way to subjective to be useful.

And this opinion is based on what?

By comparison we know the the DOH has acess to large ammounts of data and experts and no reason to think they would not use that in this case.

The responce of a rational mature adult is either:
1)stay within the limits
2)break the limits and accept the risk admiting that you are doing so.

Denial not so good.

[Graham Jackman]

Risk assessment is a tricky thing. There are a few posters who have questioned the endpoint that the NHS is using and that's the real crux of it. They're not always right and it's a very good question to ask. For all we know, they're calculating the risk to a person who is recovering from hepatitis.

I'll stay with my favorite risk assessor, Mark Twain, who wrote:

Agreed! The problem with so many of these reports is that they report the percentage change in risk and don't make so much of the absolute risk i.e. percentage of population likely to develop the particular disease. So you may have a large percentage change in a risk, which is small in absolute magnitude. So you need to concentrate on risks based on family history and those risks, which are large for your particular lifestyle.

[Taffer]

I really hope more is safer.

Otherwise I died a little this weekend.

[Graham Jackman]

I really hope more is safer.

Otherwise I died a little this weekend.
http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/wink.gif
;)
Didn't we all?

Life is a condition with a mortality of 100%.

[Taffer]

http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/wink.gif
;)
Didn't we all?

Life is a condition with a mortality of 100%.

A little more then usual. :D

[casebro]

The death rate is still ONE.

What we are interested in is the life span.

So, do teetotalers life any longer? Where is the study?

How much longer do cholesterol lowerers live? I would think that with all of the money spent on studies, the NIH would be able to tell us. Why don't they? Because it doesn't make any improvement on an individual basis.

All of these kinds of studies only make improvements on a population-based scale. Hey, if the NHS can delay having to pay for some care by a few weeks, but it costs you all of your fun, the NHS comes out ahead. For free. Think of the interest they gain on the funds held in an account, for an extra few weeks. Why, it's probably enough to pay for all of the homeopathic drugs they give out!

[JoeEllison]

I'm sorry, I can understand that you might think I'm being insulting if I refer to someone who has 50-60 drinks a week as a drunken slob - that was perhaps a bit strong but was an immediate and honest reaction to your post. If it insults you then I apologise. But aggressive and dishonest? I don't think so.
I wonder if I'm touching a nerve? Do you still drink as much?Nope. I was in the Marines, though... and if you think the Marines are nothing more than "drunken slobs", then you are pretty easy to dismiss, I think.

The proper question you should have asked was "How many drinks on each day to add up to 50-60?" Drinking 4-5 beers doesn't make you a drunken slob, if that's what you're used to. It hardly even gives you a buzz. A 12-pack on Friday and Saturday, spread over 8-10 hours, also doesn't qualify most people as "drunken slobs". If I were binge drinking 25-30 beers two nights a week, I'd have been pretty sloppy. Plus, I could and did stop any time I wanted to. When my drinking creeped above 60 a week, I would cut back to nothing for a few weeks, up to a month.

Just claiming that everyone who drinks is an alcoholic, or even a "drunken slob", is foolish and illogical. Just because you have bad experience, it doesn't mean everyone's experience matches yours.

[Wudang]

Nope.

1)they keep trying to close them
2)never been through the normal NHS review procedures.

"I'd define binge drinking as deliberately drinking enough to lose self-control and self-respect"

Not a good defintion at all. Firstly I don't belive there is any known mechanism by which the intention of the Dricker impacts the effect ethonal on the body. Secondly both self control and self respect are way to subjective to be useful.

And this opinion is based on what?

By comparison we know the the DOH has acess to large ammounts of data and experts and no reason to think they would not use that in this case.

The responce of a rational mature adult is either:
1)stay within the limits
2)break the limits and accept the risk admiting that you are doing so.

Denial not so good.

Why does her opinion invalidate her analysis of the apparent weakness of the derivation of "binge drinking"?

Let's see - the NHS keeps trying to close the homeopathic hospitals run by the NHS? How do you know this definition of "binge drinking" didn't come from the same office that keeps open the homeopathic hospitals?

I average a can of cider every few days so I;m not in denial. I just like facts. If there is a reason for what appears to be a randomly chosen operational defn lets hear it.

[Michael Redman]

I heard that you will live forever if you never drink or smoke or masturbate.at the same time?If you smoke while you masturbate, you're doing it wrong.

[geni]

Why does her opinion invalidate her analysis of the apparent weakness of the derivation of "binge drinking"?

Because she doesn't base it on any data at all.


Let's see - the NHS keeps trying to close the homeopathic hospitals run by the NHS? How do you know this definition of "binge drinking" didn't come from the same office that keeps open the homeopathic hospitals?

Because homeopathic mob are pretty isolated and limit their publications to some rather odd customer satatifaction surveys.


I average a can of cider every few days so I;m not in denial.

You are. Cider should not be drunk from cans.


I just like facts. If there is a reason for what appears to be a randomly chosen operational defn lets hear it.

Which one? The 8 or more or more than 8 defintion?

[Wudang]

Because she doesn't base it on any data at all.


Eaxctly. Because no data is given for why that definition of binge drinking is valid. I believe that the weekly limits were thrashed out by a panel of experts and took a lot of factors into consideration and are a safe compromise (maybe too safe) but let's assume that these weekly limits are good. Where does the assumption that dividing that by 7 and multiplying by 2 as a bad value come from? If the initial panel were experts is it worth assuming that they picked a weekly rather than monthly or daily value for a reason?


Because homeopathic mob are pretty isolated and limit their publications to some rather odd customer satatifaction surveys.

Evidence?

You are. Cider should not be drunk from cans.

I have the occasional glass. I don't drink it from the can. Another ad-hom like your ad-hom attack on the statistician that since you don't like her opinions her arguments can't be valid.


Which one? The 8 or more or more than 8 defintion?

Which one has evidence?

[Wudang]

BTW - if anyone can find a reference for the NHS setting 8 units in any one day as binge drinking rather than just adopting the ONS defn of "heavy drinking" I'd be interested.

[geni]

BTW - if anyone can find a reference for the NHS setting 8 units in any one day as binge drinking rather than just adopting the ONS defn of "heavy drinking" I'd be interested.

Actualy first you would have to provide evidence that the NHS has settled on 8 units. They appear to be haveing a lot of fun bounceing between 8 and 9 trying to use wordings that make it hard to spot.

[geni]

Where does the assumption that dividing that by 7 and multiplying by 2 as a bad value come from?

Where is the evidence that they did that to get to the number?


Evidence?


The structure of the NHS and their recent publication history.


I have the occasional glass. I don't drink it from the can. Another ad-hom like your ad-hom attack on the statistician that since you don't like her opinions her arguments can't be valid.

Cider should come from bottles or barrels. The mechanism of the reaction between the cider and the can walls was figured out a few years back.



Which one has evidence?

Hard to say give the issues with getting them to admit which one they are useing.

[Wudang]

Where is the evidence that they did that to get to the number?


That's the NOS defn and what the BMC and NHS seem to have adopted (I guess as a basis for comparison) from what I gather via googling. The thing I don't like is that if you use this operational definition of binge drinking such that a woman having a sherry and half a bottle of wine one day at the weekend is "bingeing" when most people who drink at all would regard that as a reasonable ammount then you weaken the case for reasonable drinking.
As I said, I accept that the weekly figures were probably well thought out. It just seems this definition of a binge has been adopted for ease of comparison with the NOS rather than any mdeical reasons.

[wilks]

Nope. I was in the Marines, though... and if you think the Marines are nothing more than "drunken slobs", then you are pretty easy to dismiss, I think.

The proper question you should have asked was "How many drinks on each day to add up to 50-60?" Drinking 4-5 beers doesn't make you a drunken slob, if that's what you're used to. It hardly even gives you a buzz. A 12-pack on Friday and Saturday, spread over 8-10 hours, also doesn't qualify most people as "drunken slobs". If I were binge drinking 25-30 beers two nights a week, I'd have been pretty sloppy. Plus, I could and did stop any time I wanted to. When my drinking creeped above 60 a week, I would cut back to nothing for a few weeks, up to a month.

Just claiming that everyone who drinks is an alcoholic, or even a "drunken slob", is foolish and illogical. Just because you have bad experience, it doesn't mean everyone's experience matches yours.

Come on Joe, read back over my posts. I never claimed that anyone who drinks is an alcoholic - I said that someone who thinks they can only have fun if they drink a lot sounds like someone who is an alcoholic.

Again, I never said the marines were drunken slobs - it would never have occurred to me.......however, since you mention it, I had a quick google and the first thing I found was this
"heavy alcohol use has consistently been reported as much higher for the Marine Corps than for any other branch of service, ranging from a high of 33.5% in 1995 to 30.8% in 2002.
Heavy alcohol use is defined as the consumption of 5 or more drinks at one sitting at least once per week. While this may not seem like a lot, there are significant health related consequences for drinking at this level. "
and
"Looking at results from the DoD Worldwide Survey (1995) and the Okinawa Survey (1997), it becomes very clear that alcohol use is having a major impact on force readiness."
http://usmc-mccs.org/subabuse/downloads/alcohol/BASIC/Senior%20Leadership%20Manual%20%20new.doc

Please note - that doesn't mean that I think marines are "nothing more" than drunken slobs! Just pointing it out.

When it comes to adding up numbers of drinks, I don't get an average of 4-5 a day if you are having 50-60 a week. More like 7-8.
Here in the UK, two pints of beer or one large glass of wine would put you over the drink driving limit (Yes, I'm generalising, I know it depends on metabolism and body weight). A 12 pack (I'm assuming here that as in the UK one can contains about 2 units of alcohol) would give you 24 units - and assuming the liver can metabolise 1 unit an hour - that leaves you still fairly drunk for nearly 24 hours.

I know you will just dismiss figures and state that you were all right drinking that amount - but that's what they all say. I'm glad you've cut down now - but then I assume that must be for a reason - you must have realised that it wasn't doing you any good?

I realise that if you were at college 10 years ago then you must still be very young and (I'm probably old enough to be your Mum) If I disapprove of that level of alcohol abuse then you will just think I'm being all po-faced about it. My youngest son is at university at the moment and is certainly a part of the drinking culture....so I'm very aware of it. If you want a younger view then you should perhaps talk to my daughter who works in a hospital and is regularly abused, threatened and hit by drunks. She doesn't drink at all because she sees alcohol as a poison. But you seem to be trying to make out that I only disapprove because I have had bad experiences in the family with alcoholism. That isn't the case - rather it is a fact that I know a little about it and I'm worried that the binge-drinking culture is a problem for all of us, for health reasons, violence and aggression, and the economy.

[BrianSI]

If you smoke while you masturbate, you're doing it wrong.

Too fast?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

I think the NHS is in a better position to define binge drinking than a statistician.

This is the same NHS that funds Homeopathic Hospitals?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

By comparison we know the the DOH has acess to large ammounts of data and experts and no reason to think they would not use that in this case.

"Pregnant women and those trying for a baby should avoid alcohol completely, according to new government advice. "

"The Department of Health said the revision was not based on new scientific evidence but was needed to help ensure that women did not underestimate the risks to their baby."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6687761.stm

Is the fact that the DOH openly admit that they do not base some of their drinking limits on scientific evidence a sufficient reason to question the basis of other drinking limits?

Given that they do not use the data or experts in this case, I think it is perfectly reasonable to question whether they do so in other cases.

[Cuddles]

There is a J shaped mortality curve associated drinking alcohol. If you drink no alcohol you have the same average mortality as a woman drinking 2 drinks per day or a man drinking 4 drinks per day. Maximum health benefit is from one drink per day for females and 2 drinks per day for males (this is from memory)

eta: this doesn't average out so you can't drink 14 drinks in one night and get the same health benefits. :)

Unfortunately the J curve is rather questioned at the moment. The trouble is, the studies that found it were based only on current consumption with no control for past behaviour or other effects on drinking. Most people who are teetotal have a reason for being so, often due to medical conditions or past problems with alcohol. This means that the higher death rate for very low consumption is likely to be nothing to do with alcohol at all, but more to do with the reason why they have low alcohol consumption.

That said, there are things in most drinks that are thought to be beneficial, so there might still be a bit of a J, just not as much as was previously thought. As far as I know, there haven't been any studies completed to test the benefits of alcohol while controlling properly for these problems.

As for the definition of binge drinking, the NHS definition is utter nonsense. It seems to mainly be an over-reaction to drunken yobbish behaviour, and attempts to solve a social problem by pretending it is a health problem. The main problem is that it attempts to group all behaviour under all circumstances into two groups, and labels one good and the other bad.

Pretty much everyone can agree that 20 pints in one night is quite a lot and probably counts as a binge (although whether it is necessarily bad is another question) and that a single glass of wine on a quiet night at home definately isn't. However, not all drinking can be simply lumped with one of these two. For example, under the NHS definition drinking 4 pints is a binge. If these are downed in 5 minutes most people would probably agree. However, what if they are drunk over 10 hours while relaxing in a park? That could hardly be classed as a binge, your body would barely even notice that it was getting alcohol, yet if you do so you are condemned for excessive drinking.

The really big problem is that everyone can see that this is nonsense. If everyone who has a couple of glasses of wine with their family is called a binge drinker, no-one will pay any attention whatsoever to the people that call them this, and that seem to be exactly what happens. If sensible limits were stated people might pay attention to them, but when it is impossible to go to the pub without passing the limits they will be ignored by everyone.

[casebro]

I looked at the J-curve with this interpretation: How much can an average drink, and only raise their risk to that of a teetotaler? Answer was 6 per day. Then I added some more, due to my large body mass. I figure ten spread out over a day. Seemed reasonable to me. Ten spread over a day would not get me snot-slinging, knee-walking drunk, it would only keep me mellow. Got to keep those endorphines flowing. Ten American Lagers is not far from the prescribed amount of water...

[Michael Redman]

Have 10 drinks a day for a week and get your triglycerides checked. Alcohol effects more than the lifespan of your liver.

[casebro]

Have 10 drinks a day for a week and get your triglycerides checked. Alcohol effects more than the lifespan of your liver.


And how many days longer will I live if I don't raise my triglycerides? Can you point to a study with the answer in time- months, days, years- NOT rate?

[kittynh]

The point of the show was that just drinking could cause problems, especially for women (I guess because they are smaller). The thought that only binge drinking was going to hurt you was wrong.

One thing the 4 drink a week study was based on was that, simply put, bartenders are giving us MORE. The size of the average wine glass has more than doubled. It's like everything, serving size. So by 4 drinks, they meant 8-10 servings. Someone said that a "serving size" of beer is half a beer. Though in Europe you can get some really strong beer. We aren't talking this watered down US stuff.

So how US beer would have done would be far different I'm sure.

This also seemed to cover lifetime drinking. There was a trend they said for people to keep drinking heavily socially long past the college age years.

Myself, I'm thinking an enjoyable weekend isn't out of the question. But, frankly with what they charge for a drink at the typical UK pub I dont' see how anyone can be in danger! Only the rich must have liver damage!

[Psi Baba]

Minor correction... a shot is 1.5 oz (though many bars now make it only 1 oz) and 1.5 oz of the average liquor (80 proof) is equivalent in alcohol to 12 oz of a 5% abv beer.I accept that as the proper amount for good mixing ... but the legal "shot" in TX at that time was 1 1/4 ounce. May have changed since then, but I doubt they would have actually increased it (for some reason).

In TX, it wasn't just a concern for limiting either. It was considered illegal to serve (i.e. sell) less than 1 1/4 ounce also.
The confusion here, Brian, is that in your original post (below), you said one-quarter ounce, not one and one-quarter ounces, as you are saying now. I raised an eyebrow at that myself. Apparently it was a typo, but that figure was the reason for patrick's response.
The basic teaching was that for just about any weight person, to serve a single person more than four drinks (1/4 ounce shot of liquor per drink or one beer) in an hour, they would be over the legal limit (which was .1 at that time).

[Dogdoctor]

Unfortunately the J curve is rather questioned at the moment. The trouble is, the studies that found it were based only on current consumption with no control for past behavior or other effects on drinking. Most people who are teetotal have a reason for being so, often due to medical conditions or past problems with alcohol. This means that the higher death rate for very low consumption is likely to be nothing to do with alcohol at all, but more to do with the reason why they have low alcohol consumption.

That said, there are things in most drinks that are thought to be beneficial, so there might still be a bit of a J, just not as much as was previously thought. As far as I know, there haven't been any studies completed to test the benefits of alcohol while controlling properly for these problems.



The J shaped curve has always been questioned however there are tons of studies that looked at all together give that picture. The real problem that most doctors have with it is that alcoholics will misread it as proof that drinking is good and continue drinking or that some people if they try for that one or two drinks a day thing will become alcoholics and the studies don't take this into consideration.

Eta So the J shaped curve has become politically incorrect

[patrick767]

One thing the 4 drink a week study was based on was that, simply put, bartenders are giving us MORE. The size of the average wine glass has more than doubled. It's like everything, serving size. So by 4 drinks, they meant 8-10 servings. Someone said that a "serving size" of beer is half a beer. Though in Europe you can get some really strong beer. We aren't talking this watered down US stuff.

So how US beer would have done would be far different I'm sure.


As a beer snob, I must weigh in here. :) The "watered down US stuff" is referring to pale lagers, which while being the most popular style of beer in the world, are IMO almost all crap. However, don't assume they have less alcohol than many dark beers. A Budweiser or Miller has about the same alcohol content (ABV) as a Guinness (about 5%). Most of the popular pub beers, whether you're in the US or Europe, and whether they taste bland and watery or whether they are very flavorful, still have an ABV around the 4-6% range.

As far as strong beer goes, if by strong you mean higher ABV, then certainly Belgian ales, doppelbocks, and others are stronger. But there are also hundreds or thousands of craft breweries in the US making thousands of beers that are every bit as strong. Of course if all you're seeing from the US are beers like Bud, you're buying beer at the wrong places. ;) Anyway... enough of my beer geekery...

My understanding is that 1 unit equals 8 oz of a 5% abv beer. I expect most study reports will use units. A common measurement in the US is 12 oz of beer at 5% abv, 5 oz of wine at 12% abv, or 1.5 oz of liquor at 40% abv. The studies themselves often use exactly how many milligrams of pure alochol are consumed.

[kittynh]

oh thank you for that information! My European beer experience is all from Belgium, and frankly, some of that stuff packs quite a kick.

[rudar]

Also, most places measure alcohol content in % alcohol by volume, but for some reason in the US, %alcohol by weight is printed on the cans. A ``weak'' American beer at 4.2%abw is exactly the same as a ``proper'' Canadian beer at 5%abv.

http://skippythelizard.blogspot.com/2006/05/mmm-beer.html
http://www.csulb.edu/~parayner/Alcohol.html

[Cuddles]

My understanding is that 1 unit equals 8 oz of a 5% abv beer. I expect most study reports will use units. A common measurement in the US is 12 oz of beer at 5% abv, 5 oz of wine at 12% abv, or 1.5 oz of liquor at 40% abv. The studies themselves often use exactly how many milligrams of pure alochol are consumed.

All of which just raises the question of how exactly an ounce is a unit of volume. Drinks should be measured using standard units that everyone understands, millilitres and pints.:p

[Walrus32]

I hate to spoil the teetotalers fun here, but in point of fact the human body produces about an ounce of ethyl alcohol a day, probably as a side effect of fermentation in the gut. You can't avoid it.

Speaking of fermentation, how come the ethanol lobby never mentions what they produce when they ferment corn, beside EtOH? As any high school chemistry student should be able to tell you, on of the products of fermentation is carbon dioxide...:p

But back to the discussion...when I was in college we always had a designated driver. That was whoever found the car first...

[writer@davidelishapi]

One aspect that has not been touched on directly yet is the ethics of external control, self-control, and immoderation. It is far easier--I imagine primarily in the U.S.--to ticket a parent for not using a child restraint, or especially to sue the innkeeper or even the dinner host who serves one drink too many to someone who ends up injured or worse, than to recover costs, to an individual victim or to the polity, associated with treating ill health due to abuse of legal beverages (or food).
This one strikes me as the devil to untangle. And it's far from the only ethical aspect to this issue.

[writer@davidelishapi]

I'm glad to see a poster finally alluding to the limitations of conflating correlation with causation (in speculating on the subject of teetotalers' il-health). Given that alcohol and health research, like most health behavior research, is epidemiological, even data from "naturalistic experiments" tend to have confounds. However, health is so important to us (as well as to the health authorities) that it is quite clear that as data accrue, however confusing in aggregate, it should be shared with the public. Moreover, it is a true service to provide recommendations, however limited they may be to "best guess" snapshots, and thus subject to revision. Yes, repeated revisions can be frustrating, but that's science, even non-experimental science such as epidemiology or public health work.

(No, I';m not a health worker.)