Students sent to office for wearing jacket and tie

[Temporal Renegade]

Apparently, dressing respectably is a violation of the school dress code:

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2007/aug/23/golden_gate_high_school_student_gets_school_suspen/

[TragicMonkey]

Ah. It's always refreshing when authority demands adherence to the letter of the law and not the spirit. This seems to be an admission that the dress code is not about dressing "decently", the argument most often advanced for a dress code, but about forced conformity. The primary goal is therefore that the students dress the same, not that they dress nicely.

[Temporal Renegade]

Just sad, really. I'm glad I'm long out of school!

[hgc]

Ah. It's always refreshing when authority demands adherence to the letter of the law and not the spirit. This seems to be an admission that the dress code is not about dressing "decently", the argument most often advanced for a dress code, but about forced conformity. The primary goal is therefore that the students dress the same, not that they dress nicely.


Actually, conformity is often the stated goal of dress codes - hence uniforms.

What these students were snagged for was snarkiness. It seems to me they were mocking the dress code by going above and beyond to an absurd degree, an activity best ignored. The pea-brained principal, however, flipped out at having his authority challenged in this insignificant way, thereby making a flaming ass of himself.

I think these students succeeded wildly.

[geni]

My school uniform included a tie so as long as you were able to argue that the jacket counted as a coat you would have been fine.

[fuelair]

Actually, conformity is often the stated goal of dress codes - hence uniforms.

What these students were snagged for was snarkiness. It seems to me they were mocking the dress code by going above and beyond to an absurd degree, an activity best ignored. The pea-brained principal, however, flipped out at having his authority challenged in this insignificant way, thereby making a flaming ass of himself.

I think these students succeeded wildly.
Why yes, yes they did!!
Fuelair, educator (and more)and person who does not care what, if anything, they wear as long as they are there to learn!!!:D

[baron]

That's nothing. When I was at Grammar School as a kid you could get suspended for using a biro instead of an ink pen (and no, it wasn't that long ago!)

(EDIT: Why is the forum hyperlinking the word "suspended" with information I didn't really want?)

[Elizabeth I]

Just sad, really. I'm glad I'm long out of school!

That's my reaction almost anytime I hear anything about public school.

[Alt+F4]

I thought all the new teacher/school/education bashing "news" stories wouldn't start until after Labor Day.

My bad. Welcome to the 2007-2008 school year.

[Dancing David]

In my district you can wear a jacket and tie if you want.

Our dress code involves three things:

1. No gang stuff, ie stuff used by gangs, to the detriment of all the other students.(No hoodies, no hats, no coats.)

2. Sexually appropriate, no sagging, no really short skirts, no tank tees, no spaghetti straps.

3. No distraction.


I am not sure which category the pajamas, house slippers and purses fall into.

[brodski]

(EDIT: Why is the forum hyperlinking the word "suspended" with information I didn't really want?)

It’s a forum “undocumented feature”, it appears when you use the quick reply button, it won’t show up for anyone else and disappears when your refresh the page (or at least it should).

[kiwimac]

I remember being corporally punished for being left-handed. Ah the joys of the 'Best days of my life' [quote][unquote]

[Temporal Renegade]

Some friends of mine and I used to to dress in black about once a month. Not the over-done 'Goth' type of clothing, but nice suit coats, slacks, waistcoats, and ties. For no other reason, than just to be different (when 'different' in school actually meant something). Never got in trouble, just a lot of strange looks for dressing like undertakers.

[Temporal Renegade]

I remember being corporally punished for being left-handed. Ah the joys of the 'Best days of my life' [quote][unquote]

A friend of mine was forced to start writing right-handed while he was in school; his son's left-handed, and when the teacher tried to 'correct' him, he told her to leave his son alone, and let him write however way he wanted to write, for himself.

[Mashuna]

I remember being corporally punished for being left-handed. Ah the joys of the 'Best days of my life'

Punishment for sinister behaviour?

[ponderingturtle]

Ah. It's always refreshing when authority demands adherence to the letter of the law and not the spirit. This seems to be an admission that the dress code is not about dressing "decently", the argument most often advanced for a dress code, but about forced conformity. The primary goal is therefore that the students dress the same, not that they dress nicely.

So you should be able to ignore any uniform codes if you are dressing to a higher level than them?

That is wrong because not all uniform codes are about maintaining a minimal dress standard, but also about indentification and conformity.

[TragicMonkey]

So you should be able to ignore any uniform codes if you are dressing to a higher level than them?

That is wrong because not all uniform codes are about maintaining a minimal dress standard, but also about indentification and conformity.

I guess my position is that the only legitimate basis for dress codes is "decency" and functionality.

Uniforms are a different matter than dress codes. I see them as appropriate for cops and the military and similar, but not for school children. But then, "conformity" has never been a value of mine, and I wouldn't push it on kids.

[Piscivore]

Uniforms are a different matter than dress codes. I see them as appropriate for cops and the military and similar, but not for school children. But then, "conformity" has never been a value of mine, and I wouldn't push it on kids.

Yes, but non-conformity loses some of its flavour in an environment without strict rules.

I'm all for school uniforms, because it makes the subtle little acts of rebellion the students will inevitably engage in- the skirts rolled up above the hemline threshold, the half-hidden dog collars or studded wristbands, the faint streak of green or purple in the hair- all the more meaningful.

[TragicMonkey]

Yes, but non-conformity loses some of its flavour in an environment without strict rules.

I'm all for school uniforms, because it makes the subtle little acts of rebellion the students will inevitably engage in- the skirts rolled up above the hemline threshold, the half-hidden dog collars or studded wristbands, the faint streak of green or purple in the hair- all the more meaningful.

Without a dress code, children all conform to each other naturally anyway. Visit any public high school and witness the distinct and easily-identified groupings. Apparent nonconformity is actually just conforming to a particular group. The real noncomformist child would be one who conformed precisely to authority--but even then, it'd probably be done ironically.

[ponderingturtle]

I guess my position is that the only legitimate basis for dress codes is "decency" and functionality.

Uniforms are a different matter than dress codes. I see them as appropriate for cops and the military and similar, but not for school children. But then, "conformity" has never been a value of mine, and I wouldn't push it on kids.

So you don't think a school should have a dress code with the intent reducing emphasis on the ammount spent on clothes?

There are many reasons for dress codes, and some of them are compatable the actions involved here.

[TragicMonkey]

So you don't think a school should have a dress code with the intent reducing emphasis on the ammount spent on clothes?


No. I have zero interest in the economic situation of the parents or the child, or how much they're willing to spend on clothing. It's not my business. It's not the school's business.

The economic argument for a dress code is a crude and utterly futile attempt at social engineering. The rich kids are still going to be obviously rich, likewise the poor kids. Their conversation will give it away even if their orthodontistry, jewelry, backpacks, haircuts, clothes, and method of transport don't. So what? The sooner kids learn that there's always someone with more money, and always someone with less money, and that they have to rub along anyway, the better.

Attempting to shield children from reality seems a pretty strange method of education.

[ponderingturtle]

No. I have zero interest in the economic situation of the parents or the child, or how much they're willing to spend on clothing. It's not my business. It's not the school's business.

So it is not the schools business if someone is being picked on because of their ecconomic station. They should just understand that some kids are just victims and there is nothing that can or should be done about it?

[TragicMonkey]

So it is not the schools business if someone is being picked on because of their ecconomic station. They should just understand that some kids are just victims and there is nothing that can or should be done about it?

No, the school's concern should be with stopping kids bullying each other, not pandering to the bullies by attempting to exert control over whatever factors purportedly inspired the bullies' choice of targets.

Just like when bullies pick on the band kids, they don't get rid of the band.

[Hamradioguy]

When I was in (public) high school a hundred years ago the only dress code was no jeans or miniskirts. One time ome of the guys in the college-prep section of my class began wearing neckties and sport coats, and I was pressured to do so as well. I refused, as I felt it was just another clique ("We're college bound brainiacs and this is how folks like us dress") I never gave in, and within a couple weeks the tie and jacket business went away.

At one point I was into sneakers in the warm weather and black engineer boots in the winter. Not to make a particular statement- just because that's what suited me. No dress code against either, but the principal called my Mom in and complained that I "wasn't conforming". She told him that this was likely because she was raising me to be a non-conformist!

Said here previously: I'm darn glad that I'm long out of school.

[athon]

I guess my position is that the only legitimate basis for dress codes is "decency" and functionality.

Uniforms are a different matter than dress codes. I see them as appropriate for cops and the military and similar, but not for school children. But then, "conformity" has never been a value of mine, and I wouldn't push it on kids.

The 'uniform' debate in schools has raged for as long as there have been schools and uniforms. The research into the influences of uniforms on diverse behaviours have been interesting over the years, and I tried to gather some resources on it a while back. I did have a few articles and papers from pedagogical journals, but where I am right now I don't have access to them, unfortunately.

The central reason most schools adopt uniforms is for socioconformity - the sense of belonging to a larger community. This does have a measureable impact on behaviour - uniformed school communities have a higher tendency to have lower number of anti-social misdemeanours (based on one article I read four years ago), apparently due to a greater sense of belonging to a community. The visual sense of being one of the same group seems to reduce the fracturing of school communities into obvious sub-cultures.

Please note that this doesn't mean such fracturing doesn't occur, but rather the visual impact of it is reduced. I've read a few case studies on schools in low socioeconomic areas adopting uniform policies as a part of a large scale effort to improve behaviour and attendence. One such school was the one I went to in London.

There are other studies on the impact of wearing a uniform. Students do seem happier to wear them, on average, with the most common reason offered being that the student feels less compelled to compete in the fashion stakes.

Students will rebel in various ways to push the limits of uniform codes, and so they should. It's up the teachers to then enforce the limits. These lads who tried to get around the uniform through a less conventional way should be commended on having a go, but also have to face the consequences of their actions. The uniform is less about looking good and more about creating a conformed society inside school. If the reasons interest you, look into something called the 'hidden curriculum'. It's the large percentage of 'stuff' you learn in school that isn't contained obviously in the curriculum, and includes things like how to deal with authorities, responsibility towards others, how to work in groups, respect for the social group, how to safely push boundaries, etc.

Athon

[Travis]

I have always opposed all manner of school dress codes and certainly have always fought the vilest form of them, School Uniforms! When I was in high school we had a code that forbade allusions to drugs, sex or profanity on the clothes. I fought long and hard to get that repealed and was quite close when the District Superintendent that I had finally won over to the side of reason died of cancer. The replacement was someone straight from the government of Oceania in Nineteen Eighty-Four who not only wanted to keep the old code but also to ban gang colors! At that point I gave up, I was graduating anyways and could only abandon the future students to such draconian brainwashing.

[TX50]

At my horrible school (in the UK in the late 1970s) jacket (blazer) and tie
was the only accepted form of dress! The uniform code was enforced with
religious zeal (it was a secular school). "Extreme styles" like button-down
shirt collars would get you sent home to change. "extreme hairstyles" (ie.
too long or too short) were proscribed too. We had a uniform whose stated
aim was to "foster the spirit of conformity". The only exception
made was that you could wear a British soldier's uniform if you were in the
school Army Cadet force (can't get much more conformist than a soldier's
uniform).

The only form of self-expression permitted was that you could wear up to
two (and only two) pin-backed badges on your blazer. Anything was
permitted, even religiose stuff, but the badges could measure no more than
one inch in diameter (strictly enforced by prefects with a ruler)!


Some "devil-may-care" adventurers took to the rebellious practise of wearing
slogan bearing T-shirts under their schoolboy shirts, school ties, and
school blazers!

The deputy head was also zealous in enforcing the rules on "appropriate
footwear": (quote) "The wearing of boots must be stamped out!" :)

[TragicMonkey]

The central reason most schools adopt uniforms is for socioconformity - the sense of belonging to a larger community.

Which explains why I detest such efforts. As a Navy brat, I was in a different school every other year. Where my parents found a house determined which school I went to--just like everybody else there. Why on earth that's supposed to engender feelings of kinship with the other students or loyalty towards the institution I was compelled to attend, I cannot imagine. Loyalty must be earned. Kinship cannot be mandated. The larger community is, and always will be, nothing more than a collection of competing (if not outright hostile) factions, who only band together with extreme reluctance to combat another, competing, "larger community".

But then, as a skinny gay nerd who moved too often, I wasn't exactly welcomed into the larger community very much, and I see damn little reason to encourage the delusion that unity exists where it doesn't.

[webfusion]

Well, at least they wore real jackets and ties -- anyone remember these??

http://www.dancestore.com/images/zztshirt-tux-lnbk.jpg

[athon]

Which explains why I detest such efforts. As a Navy brat, I was in a different school every other year. Where my parents found a house determined which school I went to--just like everybody else there. Why on earth that's supposed to engender feelings of kinship with the other students or loyalty towards the institution I was compelled to attend, I cannot imagine.

I think you're seeing it too much like some magical bullet for creating kinship. It's not and nobody claims it is. But it does contribute to reducing the open perception of variable subcultures in a school.

I know the argument for both sides in education; one side says it's necessary for the hidden curriculum to teach students how to deal with this variation. The other side argues it's necessary to form a perception of overall community first. Again, nobody says you can't belong to a sub culture. But adolescents go to great lengths to emphasise this as part of their search for identity, which makes for behavioural issues where there needn't be any. And as I said, this is something reflected in the studies on uniformed culture.

Sure, people don't like the idea. Nobody likes to be forced into a conformity where they celebrate their individuality. However it's hardly damaging to a student's wellbeing to enforce it and actually prevents a lot of problems. Where the only negative is that a student feels unhappy with having to conform in terms of clothing for six odd hours a day, I see no problem.

But then, as a skinny gay nerd who moved too often, I wasn't exactly welcomed into the larger community very much, and I see damn little reason to encourage the delusion that unity exists where it doesn't.

Because it does contribute to behavioural management, and helps to promote a sense of respect for the unity of a community. Of course those who feel outside the community will always despise it. The community becomes represented by a few and those outside of that clique will come to hate the things that represent them, such as the group's uniform (been there myself, actually). However, having worked in schools with and without uniforms, and having read the literature, there is a difference in overall school culture.

Nobody says you have to like it. But to argue it's pointless, or even damaging in any way (not saying you are, mind you), is to not understand the impact of uniforms on adolescent education.

Athon

[MelBrooksfan]

My high school's dress code was worded so that anything could be arbitrarily banned. Some stupid wording around "disruptive clothing." However, oddly enough, it was rarely enforced what-with the school females frequently wearing tank tops with straps a fraction of the required width.

[Travis]

I think you're seeing it too much like some magical bullet for creating kinship. It's not and nobody claims it is. But it does contribute to reducing the open perception of variable subcultures in a school.

What is the point in doing this? What real harm is there in allowing the variable subcultures being openly perceivable?

I know the argument for both sides in education; one side says it's necessary for the hidden curriculum to teach students how to deal with this variation. The other side argues it's necessary to form a perception of overall community first.

Why are we trying get the kids to deal with the variation or form a perception of overall community? People are generally stupid and abrasive. Why are we forcing them, at a young age, to interact with all the other stupid and abrasive people? It didn't take me long to understand that I thought very lowly of my classmates. So why and try and foster that?


However it's hardly damaging to a student's wellbeing to enforce it and actually prevents a lot of problems.

Name me one problem that it prevents that schools should even be bothering with in the fist place?

Where the only negative is that a student feels unhappy with having to conform in terms of clothing for six odd hours a day, I see no problem.

I've always had a big time problem with it. I generally dislike any limitations on a persons free will and clothing style is one of them.

Because it does contribute to behavioural management, and helps to promote a sense of respect for the unity of a community.

Fist off, I don't think schools should be in the business of "behavioral management," and I don't see any value in them respecting the unity of a community. Who was my student body President? Beats me. Who was my class's Prom Queen? Don't know, didn't go to it just like I didn't go to any of the other school dances including the Homecoming Dance where I was the actual class Prince.


Nobody says you have to like it. But to argue it's pointless, or even damaging in any way (not saying you are, mind you), is to not understand the impact of uniforms on adolescent education.

Athon


Perhaps, for some, it is harmless. I know that if I had been in an institution with them I would likely have devoted all my energies, to the detriment of my studies even, to getting rid of them. I would have made it my all encompassing goal, shirking aside all else. So, to me it probably would have been harmful due to me devoting so much valuable time to it.

[athon]

What is the point in doing this? What real harm is there in allowing the variable subcultures being openly perceivable?

It depends on what you mean by 'harm'. No direct harm, as such, but in managing behaviour it does contribute to creating an atmosphere where the focus is not on fractured sub-cultures. As I said, it's not in itself a panacea, but it does contribute to modifying behaviour.

Why are we trying get the kids to deal with the variation or form a perception of overall community?

Look up 'the hidden curriculum' to get a bit of a feel for how such things contribute towards overall pedagogy.

People are generally stupid and abrasive. Why are we forcing them, at a young age, to interact with all the other stupid and abrasive people? It didn't take me long to understand that I thought very lowly of my classmates. So why and try and foster that?

Ok, so you want to discuss this as an emotional hang-up you have, or as a measure schools take towards pedagogy? If the former, I'll apologise for trying to discuss this passively and step back to let you rant.

Name me one problem that it prevents that schools should even be bothering with in the fist place?

I addressed this already.

I've always had a big time problem with it. I generally dislike any limitations on a persons free will and clothing style is one of them.

So I assume you also argue against compulsory education, since that limits an adolescent's free will? Bear in mind, there are schools which don't enforce uniforms. I have no problem with that at all, and as I said, can see both sides of the debate. Personally for me, the schools which have larger behavioural problems tend to find uniforms have an impact on behavioural management.

Fist off, I don't think schools should be in the business of "behavioral management," and I don't see any value in them respecting the unity of a community.

Are you serious? I take it you've never set foot back in a school since you left. I will also assume you have small understanding of pedagogy and adolescent education. There's no requirement for you to, however for you to start passing judgement on how pedagogy works I would appreciate you to have a foundation in it, much as if you were to start discussing philosophy, physics or even poodle-training you have some foundation in those topics.

Who was my student body President? Beats me. Who was my class's Prom Queen? Don't know, didn't go to it just like I didn't go to any of the other school dances including the Homecoming Dance where I was the actual class Prince.

I think you've misunderstood. The result won't make everybody celebrate their school openly and joyfully. It does contribute, however, towards a greater perception of unity than if no uniforms existed.

Perhaps, for some, it is harmless. I know that if I had been in an institution with them I would likely have devoted all my energies, to the detriment of my studies even, to getting rid of them.

And you think that speaks more about the uniform than it does for your desire for rebellion? Mate, the problem isn't rooted in the conformity - it seems like its based in your issues with the social groups you were in. I sympathise you had a hard time growing up, but I guarentee the uniforms sound like the least of your problems.

I would have made it my all encompassing goal, shirking aside all else.

That's fairly sad. Your sole, all encompassing focus would have been to rebel against wearing uniforms? This makes no sense - there's no problem with the rule of uniforms other than the fact it would cause you to rebel against them? It's circular reasoning of the silliest sort. I'm not surprised, and I've dealt with enough kids with this mentality, whose lives are so shallow they will rebel against anything. They tend to either grow up sooner or later, or have difficult lives adjusting to society.

Of course kids who have real problems outside of the school tend to not mind so much. It's one less conflict they have to deal with.

Athon

[Dancing David]

I have always opposed all manner of school dress codes and certainly have always fought the vilest form of them, School Uniforms! When I was in high school we had a code that forbade allusions to drugs, sex or profanity on the clothes. I fought long and hard to get that repealed and was quite close when the District Superintendent that I had finally won over to the side of reason died of cancer. The replacement was someone straight from the government of Oceania in Nineteen Eighty-Four who not only wanted to keep the old code but also to ban gang colors! At that point I gave up, I was graduating anyways and could only abandon the future students to such draconian brainwashing.


I don't like dress codes either. But gangs are a reality for some schools and it is not a good thing. When someone is 'representing' it is allowing them to publicaly express thier gang status. Much less the fights that happen when someone wears the wrong colors to school. Fortunately we have the first problem and not the second. (The strangest being the "Roll up both pant legs if you will roll your pant legs" rule.)

[SteveGrenard]

Any student who wants to wear a suit and tie belongs in the office ... so it is no surprise they were sent there. They should stay there as long as they want to wear business attire. The office is clearly where they belong. Maybe they can get a job in the office....

[Disenchanted]

In my senior year at high school, the new principal decided to enforce a rule about no shorts from a date in the fall to one in the spring. This posed a problem on some hot spring days before we were allowed to wear shorts. So I wore shorts one of those days (with the support of my mom) to protest it.

[hgc]

In my senior year at high school, the new principal decided to enforce a rule about no shorts from a date in the fall to one in the spring. This posed a problem on some hot spring days before we were allowed to wear shorts. So I wore shorts one of those days (with the support of my mom) to protest it.


My senior year in high school, our principal was replaced (assigned to a different school) with a new one midway through the school year. The new principal promptly announced a "no shorts" policy, to "avoid distractions in the classroom," which was going to be a big problem in the warm North Carolina spring, and there was quite a loud uproar.

You have to remember that in those days, 1982, the shorts that people wore didn't look like what's common today - they were quite short by comparison. Just look at what basketball players and tennis players were wearing back then. This principal partially relented and allowed for "bermuda shorts," meaning shorts long enough to come to just above the knee. Of course no one had such garments. These days, that's all you can find. Thanks, Michael Jordan!

[Bob Klase]

Did no one actually read the article?

While they didn't spell out all the reasons for the dress code, the school did say

Spano said the good thing about the dress code is that when strangers come to campus, they stand out immediately, which helps school officials keep the campus safe.

Perhaps it also has something to do with enforcing conformity, but I see no reason to assume that based on the article. School safety is more than the concern of school officials, it's their responsibility. While it may be debatable whether the dress code actually does help keep the campus safe, that would be a more reasonable thing to debate than the unfounded assumptions that make up a large part of this thread.

Principal Bob Spano said Perkins and several other students had been warned before Wednesday that they were not following the dress code.

“This was a group of students who had been talked to before,” he said. “Because there was a group of them, it sort of brought more attention to it.”

When they didn’t comply again on Wednesday, Spano said the students were brought to the office, where they were given the option of calling home and having someone bring them the appropriate clothes or going to in-school suspension.

If they had just showed up the first day with coats and ties and said "gee, we just thought we were exceeding the minimum standards of the dress code", I might have bought it. They were told (at least once) and came back the next day doing the same thing.

Even after being brought to the office they were given the option of calling mom to have her bring appropriate clothes. They choose the suspension. Why would that be?

[TragicMonkey]

Isn't it sexist to forbid shorts but allow girls to wear skirts? Both my high schools forbade shorts between certain dates, but allowed girls to wear skirts showing as much or more leg. So is it just male legs that are so shocking to the tender sensibilities of persons with more authority than logic?

[pgwenthold]

Isn't it sexist to forbid shorts but allow girls to wear skirts? Both my high schools forbade shorts between certain dates, but allowed girls to wear skirts showing as much or more leg. So is it just male legs that are so shocking to the tender sensibilities of persons with more authority than logic?

No, it's just your legs they were worried about.

[Temporal Renegade]

Well, at least they wore real jackets and ties -- anyone remember these??

http://www.dancestore.com/images/zztshirt-tux-lnbk.jpg

AUUGGHH!!! MY EYES!! AAUUGGHH!!!

:D

[athon]

Perhaps it also has something to do with enforcing conformity, but I see no reason to assume that based on the article.

I'm sure it was a contributory reason; it normally is. However you are correct in it also contributing to safety. Being able to automatically pick out a visitor in the crowds is far easier when they are in civilian attire.

Even after being brought to the office they were given the option of calling mom to have her bring appropriate clothes. They choose the suspension. Why would that be?

Rebellion, pure and simple. I have no problem with pushing the boundaries, and if these were my kids I'd have initially done the same - suggest they go home and change. But to continue resistance after they've had their protest is futile. It's like others here have said - they don't like wearing uniforms because they just don't like it.

There are a number of concerns students should have about their education. Uniforms ain't one of them.

Athon