One Laptop per Child [Archive]

six7s

25th August 2007, 11:07 PM

Without electricity and an internet connection (or expensive software), I don't see the educational value in this.

Maybe you didn't following any of the nine or so links in the OP :)

You'll see that they have actually thought about such issues, in quite some depth :)

Electricity: (http://www.laptop.org/en/laptop/hardware/features.shtml)
XO unlike any laptop ever built (http://www.laptop.org/en/laptop/hardware/highlights.shtml)
The laptop selectively suspends operation of its CPU, which makes possible even more remarkable power savings. The laptop nominally consumes less than two watts—less than one tenth of what a standard laptop consumes—so little that XO can be recharged by human power. This is a critical advance for the half-billion children who have no access to electricity.

alternate power-charging sources, such as car batteries<snip/>
...can be hand powered. It will come with at least two of three options: a crank, a pedal, or a pull-cord...

Software (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Our_software)

What software will be used with the $100 laptop?
Wouldn't having a choice of operating systems mess with the idea of having mesh networking, educational software and external mass data storage?
Will the mesh networking be an effective replacement for Internet access?
Will the display be able to rotate orientation?
How much is reserved for Content?
Is the OLPC laptop a PC?
Is the OLPC laptop a PC in the sense of being an IBM-compatible PC rather than just a "personal computer"?
Where can software developers get laptops to work with?
What instruction set does the processor in the laptops have?

What about connectivity?
Aren't telecommunications services expensive in the developing world? (http://www.laptop.org/en/vision/mission/faq.shtml)
When these machines pop out of the box, they will make a mesh network of their own, peer-to-peer. This is something initially developed at MIT and the Media Lab. We are also exploring ways to connect them to the backbone of the Internet at very low cost.

Wireless Hardware (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Power_Management#Wireless_Hardware)

quixotecoyote

25th August 2007, 11:20 PM

six7s

26th August 2007, 12:05 AM

The networking and internet connection theories are all undeveloped and theoretical. None actually exist<snip/>
eta:It could be a great idea, but I'll wait until it's working before i get excited.

Stand by to get ready to make preparations to anticipate excitement:

BBC News: Factfile: XO laptop (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6679431.stm)

Bolding, of past and present tense words, mine

A test done in the outback of Australia under ideal conditions showed that two laptops could communicate more than 2km (1.2 miles) apart. In reality, the range will be much shorter than this.

Using standard wireless protocols, the laptops are automatically able to form a "mesh network" where each machine acts as both laptop and router, able to pass information between computers.

If one laptop is switched on in range of an internet connection (usually at a local school) all other laptops on the network can share the access.

Those computers furthest from the connection will have the lowest internet speeds. If there is no internet access, the laptops can still share data, video and information through the mesh.

It does not have an Ethernet port for use with wired internet connections

articulett

26th August 2007, 12:40 AM

They discussed this at TAM. I think it's a fabulous idea... A guy from the Fab Lab at MIT was there-- it was amazing... he had videos of some of the stuff they were doing... What a gift this could be-- a library of knowledge for every kid...

athon

26th August 2007, 02:04 AM

I run my school's laptop propgram. Laptops are fantastic tools which offer amazing potential in a system established to use them effectively. Otherwise they're little more than glorified notebooks. The difference is the environment and the resources on offer.

In the end, I feel that laptops present a massive educational potential.

Athon

six7s

26th August 2007, 02:27 AM

The difference is the environment and the resources on offer

Considering the depth and breadth of documentation on the OLPC sites, I v much doubt I am alone in wondering what impact the scheme will have in shaping the (learning) environment of not only the intended recipients but also kids (and adults) in 'the rest of the world(tm)'

Methinks: a huge experiment in social engineering, poised to run

The world will, of course, be a different place in 10 years time - whether or not OLPC works (in technological/implementation terms) - but how different?

We live in Interesting Times </woo>

lightcreatedlife@hom

26th August 2007, 03:51 PM

I think a standard laptop is a good idea. It would allow "bulk rate" buying, when the richest school system really get involved. I am in the process of reading the links, but do they have some type of block to keep students from going anywhere they want?
Just as I thought this, the tv said that there is going to be a special on it tonight, on 60 Minutes 7pm est. I think i'll wait for the video.

six7s

26th August 2007, 04:15 PM

do they have some type of block to keep students from going anywhere they want?

The brute force approach typically uses proxy servers to limit access, which all too often promotes an anarchic hacker mentality

Encouraging kids to think for themselves and appraise the advice of their teachers means that, through IT, they can learn skills applicable to any field

Add to this a culture of trust and support (when the kids innocently stumble upon something horrific) and the kids have real security

lightcreatedlife@hom

26th August 2007, 06:45 PM

The brute force approach typically uses proxy servers to limit access, which all too often promotes an anarchic hacker mentality
Right... they will try and beat it. Still, I would feel good standing next to limits. After all, that is part of the lesson.

Encouraging kids to think for themselves and appraise the advice of their teachers means that, through IT, they can learn skills applicable to any field
You got my vote.

Add to this a culture of trust and support (when the kids innocently stumble upon something horrific) and the kids have real security
While you are right, i'm for the big brother approach, "WE KNOW where you been". Their parents could have to signoff on a "report card" of where they been.

lightcreatedlife@hom

26th August 2007, 07:19 PM

So why isn't the U.S. school system buying computers and/or supporting the laptop program? If they are, why aren't they doing more?
We have a cheap product, a good, working online program, and a wealthy system that says it needs the help. And remember, I only want a homework program supporting what is being taught in the class.

six7s

26th August 2007, 07:25 PM

...i'm for the big brother approach, "WE KNOW where you been". Their parents could have to signoff on a "report card" of where they been.

You're not alone :) Furthermore, there's no need for anyone to reinvent the wheel as many, many others have devised a variety of methods that can be mixed and matched to suit

10 ways to monitor what your users are doing with company computers (http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/10things/?p=192)

http://wiki.laptop.org/images/b/b6/NetworkView.png
Trial1 School Network (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Trial1_Server_Software#Networking)

The OLPC network scheme involves one server, providing internet access to the laptops, so 'Big Brother: we know where you have been' style monitoring will be a doddle to implement, leaving parents and teachers free to focus on student learning; at home, at school, or wherever they can connect to the network

six7s

26th August 2007, 07:39 PM

So why isn't the U.S. school system buying computers and/or supporting the laptop program? If they are, why aren't they doing more?
The current Progress Map (http://laptop.org/en/vision/progress/maps.shtml) shows the US in green - a 'pilot country'

(green) those countries we plan to pilot
(red) those countries we plan to include in the post-launch phase
(orange) those countries who have expressed interest at the ministry-of-education level or higher
(yellow) those countries who are currently seeking government support

If that's not good enough, maybe its up to you and your colleagues and neighbours to make it yellow and/or petition Washington to change that it to orange

http://laptop.org/en/img/olpcmap.jpg

GoodGuysEatPie

26th August 2007, 07:39 PM

In principle, I think this is a great idea, and I hope it has great success... I can't even begin to fathom the logistics of it though.

How do they make sure that a kid's family doesn't just sell the laptop to pay for food? Will the computers have special software locks?

~goodguyseatpie~

lightcreatedlife@hom

26th August 2007, 07:50 PM

Shouldn't the U.S. school system already be in contact with congress? I didn't know this stuff existed, but they had to... shouldn't they?

six7s

26th August 2007, 07:58 PM

How do they make sure that a kid's family doesn't just sell the laptop to pay for food?

I dunno

Talk:Not for individual sale (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Not_for_individual_sale)
Idea on Preventing or Discouraging Resale
A common practice in our country is to provide the recipient or the parents of the recipients a recurring benefit for staying in a program.

In the case of the OLPC project, as long as a child continuously shows that he or she is using the laptop and has not sold it (i.e. bringing it to school, presenting completed homework on the laptop), the child or the parents will be eligible for further government support such as food allowances, health care or other benefits.

They would lose the benefits if they sold the laptop

See also: Not for individual sale (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Not_for_individual_sale) for a variety of responses to the above

lightcreatedlife@hom

26th August 2007, 08:40 PM

You're not alone :) Furthermore, there's no need for anyone to reinvent the wheel as many, many others have devised a variety of methods that can be mixed and matched to suit
I'm all for using the same wheel, they save on the cost of making one.

10 ways to monitor what your users are doing with company computers (http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/10things/?p=192)

http://wiki.laptop.org/images/b/b6/NetworkView.png
Trial1 School Network (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Trial1_Server_Software#Networking)

The OLPC network scheme involves one server, providing internet access to the laptops, so 'Big Brother: we know where you have been' style monitoring will be a doddle to implement, leaving parents and teachers free to focus on student learning; at home, at school, or wherever they can connect to the network
This just can't be, I must be dreaming. Someone is agreeing with me... on something big. I knew it was possible... but I never thought I would live to... Sorry, I just got to dance... this may never happen again. That is, if it is really happening.
So...
"The Revolution has been hidden." Or would some of the experts accept: "The Revolution has been overlooked"? A bet they will say: "The Revolution is slowly evolving". I say speed it up.

lightcreatedlife@hom

26th August 2007, 08:53 PM

I dunno

Talk:Not for individual sale (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Talk:Not_for_individual_sale)

See also: Not for individual sale (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Not_for_individual_sale) for a variety of responses to the above
Maybe where taking them home is a problem, they could be available at nearby cybercafes, or schools.

six7s

27th August 2007, 12:53 PM

Maybe where taking them home is a problem, they could be available at nearby cybercafes, or schools.

Beyond school (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/One_Laptop_per_Child#Beyond_school)
<snip/>
A bond to learning is formed between the child and parent at home.

Children must not only own the laptop, but take it home. In so doing the whole family will benefit. Current pilot projects have shown unequivocally that parents become more engaged... <snip/>

athon

27th August 2007, 09:09 PM

Shouldn't the U.S. school system already be in contact with congress? I didn't know this stuff existed, but they had to... shouldn't they?

You do realise there's no such entity as 'the US school system', right? There are state systems, and boards which regulate the curriculum, and a single federal influence by way of programs (such as the NCLB policy), and even arguably an educational culture, but there is no US educational system. It might help to narrow down exactly what it is you're talking about and ask questions relevant to that.

Athon

athon

27th August 2007, 09:15 PM

Considering the depth and breadth of documentation on the OLPC sites, I v much doubt I am alone in wondering what impact the scheme will have in shaping the (learning) environment of not only the intended recipients but also kids (and adults) in 'the rest of the world(tm)'

Methinks: a huge experiment in social engineering, poised to run

The world will, of course, be a different place in 10 years time - whether or not OLPC works (in technological/implementation terms) - but how different?

We live in Interesting Times </woo>

I agree that it could make for an interesting contribution. ICT education is essential for tomorrow's citizens. However, being educated in the technology itself is less important than the skills underlaying how to adapt to novel technologies which we can't even predict today.

Having a program to make laptops available is a good thing, however is fairly useless if not inserted into a compatible curriculum which can make use of it. Simply throwing in the laptops and making them affordable is like giving a bloke a fishing rod and a hook and thinking now he'll never go hungry.

Athon

six7s

27th August 2007, 10:09 PM

... fairly useless if not inserted into a compatible curriculum which can make use of it. Simply throwing in the laptops and making them affordable is like giving a bloke a fishing rod and a hook and thinking now he'll never go hungry

I agree, and I'd extend the analogy to include a risk that a new rod and hook may well distract the bloke (and blokettes ;)) to the point where they neglect their traditional staples

However, I see that significant effort is being directed towards mitigating the risk: Results 1 - 10 of about 552 from laptop.org for curriculum (http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cof=&domains=laptop.org&q=curriculum&btnG=Search&sitesearch=laptop.org)

athon

27th August 2007, 10:30 PM

I agree, and I'd extend the analogy to include a risk that a new rod and hook may well distract the bloke (and blokettes ;)) to the point where they neglect their traditional staples

However, I see that significant effort is being directed towards mitigating the risk: Results 1 - 10 of about 552 from laptop.org for curriculum (http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&cof=&domains=laptop.org&q=curriculum&btnG=Search&sitesearch=laptop.org)

Nice to see.

Ok, I'm seeing more reason to be impressed by the initiative now.

Athon

lightcreatedlife@hom

28th August 2007, 04:17 PM

You do realise there's no such entity as 'the US school system', right? There are state systems, and boards which regulate the curriculum, and a single federal influence by way of programs (such as the NCLB policy), and even arguably an educational culture, but there is no US educational system. It might help to narrow down exactly what it is you're talking about and ask questions relevant to that.

Athon
I know. I think that is one of the problems. There is a Secretary of Education that comes along every 8 years that throws the rest of the system into a fit of changes. That "No Child Left Behind" thing is a joke, but everybody has to change to fit it, no matter what they are already doing.

athon

28th August 2007, 05:51 PM

I know. I think that is one of the problems. There is a Secretary of Education that comes along every 8 years that throws the rest of the system into a fit of changes. That "No Child Left Behind" thing is a joke, but everybody has to change to fit it, no matter what they are already doing.

At last something we agree upon. :D

Athon

Tokenconservative

13th September 2007, 04:11 PM

Without electricity and an internet connection (or expensive software), I don't see the educational value in this.

These sorts of Quixotic (heh, heh) approaches to "being a part of the solution" would be laughable if they were not so useless.

So this organization is going to get laptops to kids who rarely have electricity, don't have clean drinking water and who, only if they are very wealthy might get one or two years of school before going to work?

For what?

Tokie

Tokenconservative

13th September 2007, 04:19 PM

I love that on this board disagreement is so often assumed to be the result of the person being an ignorant lazy fool.

The networking and internet connection theories are all undeveloped and theoretical. None actually exist. Without that, none of the open-source software is going to be particularly effective. Yes you have word processor and web tools. But with no way to spread your documents and no way to access the web, it's pointless atm.

I confess I did misread the electrical solution as theoretical as well instead of implemented.

eta:It could be a great idea, but I'll wait until it's working before i get excited.

Could be worse...you could be me. I anticipate being banned before too long for my annoying habit of voicing the truth.

In any case, that's the way it is on most boards...you point out the...flaws in some nonsensical, feel-good (not to the people it's supposed to be helping, of course...can you imagine the fun some Somalian warlord is going to have with his shipment of these things?) thing like this developed by people with too large of trust funds and too much time on their hands?

What good is a laptop to a kid who won't see his 5th birthday? Or to a kid who is dying from malaria or crippled by polio? What good will a laptop do a kid whose only schooling is in the care and use of an AK-47? And especially, as we learned in Somalia, when the laptops are diverted to the local warlord who sells them on the black market?

This is yet another of those programs some group of wealthy people who feel guilty about their wealth (as most of them should...few actually earn their wealth) and set out to "do something." What they end up doing makes them feel good but in the end does little or, more often, nothing for those they think they are helping.

They should get Sally Struthers to be their spokesperson.

Tokie

six7s

13th September 2007, 05:00 PM

What good is a laptop to a kid who won't see his 5th birthday? Or to a kid who is dying from malaria or crippled by polio? What good will a laptop do a kid whose only schooling is in the care and use of an AK-47? And especially, as we learned in Somalia, when the laptops are diverted to the local warlord who sells them on the black market?

You ask questions that are addressed, in depth, on the OLPC wiki site, which is linked to in the OP

This suggests to me that you have not read much (if anything) and have, instead chosen to post in a rather reactionary tone, which is curious if you are simply reacting with a knee-jerk to an initiative that is not only still being devloped but also evidently open to constructive criticism from all (relevant) quarters

Do you have any constructive criticism to add?

If not, why are you here?

Could be worse...you could be me. I anticipate being banned before too long...

If I interpret your tone and stance correctly, I suspect that you may well be on the way on to realising a self-fulfilling prophecy

If not, I apologise (citing the inherently clumsy nature of text-only forum communications as a reason - if not excuse) and ask that you please explain what makes you think that This is yet another of those programs some group of wealthy people who feel guilty about their wealth

Tokenconservative

13th September 2007, 06:03 PM

You ask questions that are addressed, in depth, on the OLPC wiki site, which is linked to in the OP

This suggests to me that you have not read much (if anything) and have, instead chosen to post in a rather reactionary tone, which is curious if you are simply reacting with a knee-jerk to an initiative that is not only still being devloped but also evidently open to constructive criticism from all (relevant) quarters

Do you have any constructive criticism to add?

If not, why are you here?

If I interpret your tone and stance correctly, I suspect that you may well be on the way on to realising a self-fulfilling prophecy

If not, I apologise (citing the inherently clumsy nature of text-only forum communications as a reason - if not excuse) and ask that you please explain what makes you think that

I like to debate. Of course, I run into a lot of doctrinaire, dogmatic "true believes" and when I point up some of the um...flaws in either their thinking and especially in their most heart-felt, emotion-driven beliefs, they tend (on forums) to run to the administrator, claim I am insulting them, and demand that I be banned.

Happens a lot.

I am an old man. I don't need to take a microscope to the this, that and the utter web site. I already know what I need to know (and this is not the first place I've read about this program): a group of do-gooders is hoping to make themselves feel good by shipping inexpensive computers to "the poor chilruns" around the world. Lots of money spent on things that these kids won't know how to use, won't most likely be able to use, and will in all likelihood, be diverted to some warlord or crooked El General's use, anyway.

But the do-gooders will not hear about this (mostly...my guess is those at the top of this scheme know this, but since they make their living doing things like this, are happy to go along) and will go to their graves thinking they um..dun good.

Criticism of a really poorly concieved plan need not necessarily be "constructive." If you are going to build a bridge out of baling wire and chewing gum, it's enough for me to say, "gosh...that seems like a really bad idea, " and let you figure out on your own that other materials might serve that purpose better. After all, I am not a bridge engineer.

If you are asking what makes me think it's a bad idea, I've answered you. If you are asking what makes me think I'll be banned fairly quickly...ditto.

Tokie

skoob

13th September 2007, 06:22 PM

...can you imagine the fun some Somalian warlord is going to have with his shipment of these things?)

And especially, as we learned in Somalia, when the laptops are diverted to the local warlord who sells them on the black market?

Huh? What alternate reality do you live in? Somalia isn't participating in the OLPC programme in any way.

lightcreatedlife@hom

13th September 2007, 08:11 PM

In any case, that's the way it is on most boards...you point out the...flaws in some nonsensical, feel-good (not to the people it's supposed to be helping, of course...can you imagine the fun some Somalian warlord is going to have with his shipment of these things?) thing like this developed by people with too large of trust funds and too much time on their hands?

What good is a laptop to a kid who won't see his 5th birthday? Or to a kid who is dying from malaria or crippled by polio? What good will a laptop do a kid whose only schooling is in the care and use of an AK-47? And especially, as we learned in Somalia, when the laptops are diverted to the local warlord who sells them on the black market?

I guess with any attempt to do good, that some bad can be done with, or through it. But that does not mean that the attempt should not be made. No one idea can address all the problems, nor should it be expected to. Education though, maybe the "wild card" that can cover a wide area-within reason. That is, if "knowing is half the battle".

six7s

13th September 2007, 08:12 PM

I like to debate
<snip/>
Criticism of a really poorly concieved plan need not necessarily be "constructive."
<snip/>
...If you are asking what makes me think it's a bad idea, I've answered you

You have yet to debate, criticise or answer any relevant questions

Instead, you have have simply droned on like a bigot, making what seems like nothing more than a succession of vague, hostile and completely unsubstantiated claims

...they tend (on forums) to run to the administrator, claim I am insulting them, and demand that I be banned.

Happens a lot.

Is this a warning that you will resort to ad hom attacks?

I am an old man

So what?

Wisdom doesn't automatically come with old age. Nothing does - except wrinkles. It's true, some wines improve with age. But only if the grapes were good in the first place.
Abigail Van Buren

athon

13th September 2007, 09:30 PM

Could be worse...you could be me. I anticipate being banned before too long for my annoying habit of voicing the truth.

Nobody gets banned here for 'voicing the truth'. People get banned because they feel being offensive is the only way they can articulate their perception of the truth. If that makes no sense to you, then I guess your stay will be a short one.

If you do see the difference, then welcome aboard.

In any case, that's the way it is on most boards...you point out the...flaws in some nonsensical, feel-good (not to the people it's supposed to be helping, of course...can you imagine the fun some Somalian warlord is going to have with his shipment of these things?) thing like this developed by people with too large of trust funds and too much time on their hands?

What's your criticism of the program? I admit I haven't looked at it in too much detail, but evidentally you have. I'd be happy to see precisely what informed criticisms you have of it in order to assist me in making up my own mind.

What good is a laptop to a kid who won't see his 5th birthday? Or to a kid who is dying from malaria or crippled by polio? What good will a laptop do a kid whose only schooling is in the care and use of an AK-47? And especially, as we learned in Somalia, when the laptops are diverted to the local warlord who sells them on the black market?

You have proof that this program has sent laptops to warlords?

Many similarly aimed programs have in the past been effective because they've been implemented not in the most impoverished areas that are in dire need of water and food, but those without direct access to technology of some sort and could benefit from it. I assume you've worked in such a field in similar third world countries? I'd be interested to know of your personal experiences in them, and whether they match similar experiences of my own.

This is yet another of those programs some group of wealthy people who feel guilty about their wealth (as most of them should...few actually earn their wealth) and set out to "do something." What they end up doing makes them feel good but in the end does little or, more often, nothing for those they think they are helping.

I'm still not seeing anything other than rhetoric. Right now I'm undecided as to whether you're another uninformed layabout who has never seen outside of their own backyard, or somebody who has some valid, well supported points to make and is just waiting to express them.

If the former, then I'll see your opinions for what they are worth - nothing. If the latter, then I anticipate some evidence to back up your criticisms.

Athon

quixotecoyote

13th September 2007, 10:25 PM

For the record, my objections were answered and I offered no further objection pending the results of the pilot.

Tokenconservative

14th September 2007, 05:08 AM

Huh? What alternate reality do you live in? Somalia isn't participating in the OLPC programme in any way.

Oh. I see. So these laptops are going to needy kids in say, the Hamptons? Brentwood? Norway?

Look, I love a good debate, but I come to debate (amongst adults) with some expectations, one of which is that said adults will understand a (perhaps) hyperbolic example for what it is.

Perhaps it's the cast that you, skoob, are not an adult and as a result take all things literally (please do yourself a favor and run--don't walk--away whenever you see a copy of the Old Testament lying about). Good that Somalia is not a part of this...but other places are, where the same sorts of corruption, though not perhaps at the same level as in my hyperbolic example (Somalia) is extant.

Tokie

Tokenconservative

14th September 2007, 05:15 AM

I guess with any attempt to do good, that some bad can be done with, or through it. But that does not mean that the attempt should not be made. No one idea can address all the problems, nor should it be expected to. Education though, maybe the "wild card" that can cover a wide area-within reason. That is, if "knowing is half the battle".

Actually, demographers and geographers and even some (hones) sociologists have known for decades that the single most important thing to bring to an area that "civilizes" it is...electricity.

So if this organization REALLY wanted to do some good, they work toward providing these areas with reliable electrical power, rather than wind-up-powered laptops they can use a few minutes a day.

I don't have a problem with those working to bring REAL relief to such people...look at those dentistry and opthomology organization that sends doctors to backward places to provide eyeglasses, corrective surgeries, etc. They fly there, get their scrubs on the ground, do real work that cannot be hijacked by the local warlord and sold on the black market.

They no doubt feel good about it, and nothing wrong with that. But it's REAL. It's not some pie-in-the-sky notion that provides useless geegaws to people who don't even have clean drinking water.

So no, "doing something" is not always better than doing nothing. Filling some rural village deep in the 3rd World with useless laptops only tells the people there (unless you area also assuming they are all stupid) that rich Westerners are patting them on the head, handing them some colored beads (again) and telling them this will fix everything for them before getting back in their Gulfstream and flying back to their comfortable homes in the US and Western Europe.

Tokie

Tokenconservative

14th September 2007, 05:25 AM

You have yet to debate, criticise or answer any relevant questions

Instead, you have have simply droned on like a bigot, making what seems like nothing more than a succession of vague, hostile and completely unsubstantiated claims

Is this a warning that you will resort to ad hom attacks?

So what?

Wow...hard to wade through all the assumptions here, but I'm game (if not gamey...).

Most people who are...inexpert in debate, when confronted with a debator who uses my aggresive style of debating resort to this claim. It's a false claim, but it makes them feel better.

You immediately assume I will be making ad hom attacks (you can't find any in anything I'v said, so you must resort to this tactic) just after engaging in the very same yourself.... Hmmm....

Heavens! I'd be the last person in the world to suggest that my age has produced in me any sort of wisdom. I find that the older I get, the dumber I get. It at least allows me to recognize that I built up to the dumb stage through long years of very dedicated practice, howmsoever. That's beside the point, but exactly what I'd expect someone (by the way...this is another ad hom...it's okay for ME to recognize how stupid I am...it's not okay for YOU to call me stupid--I mean, it's okay with ME, it's just not okay by the rules of rational discourse, no matter how you sneak it in). My age simply means that I've been around long enough to have witnessed some things in the world, which allows me, simply through memory, not wisdom, to have a fuller experience with how people act and what people do.

And I've seen attempts like this wind-up computer one a hundred times in the past...I can't think of a one that's done anything substantial and lasting--other than make those involved feel good (so long's they don't do much follow-up).

Tokie

Tokenconservative

14th September 2007, 05:41 AM

Nobody gets banned here for 'voicing the truth'. People get banned because they feel being offensive is the only way they can articulate their perception of the truth. If that makes no sense to you, then I guess your stay will be a short one.

If you do see the difference, then welcome aboard.

What's your criticism of the program? I admit I haven't looked at it in too much detail, but evidentally you have. I'd be happy to see precisely what informed criticisms you have of it in order to assist me in making up my own mind.

You have proof that this program has sent laptops to warlords?

Many similarly aimed programs have in the past been effective because they've been implemented not in the most impoverished areas that are in dire need of water and food, but those without direct access to technology of some sort and could benefit from it. I assume you've worked in such a field in similar third world countries? I'd be interested to know of your personal experiences in them, and whether they match similar experiences of my own.

I'm still not seeing anything other than rhetoric. Right now I'm undecided as to whether you're another uninformed layabout who has never seen outside of their own backyard, or somebody who has some valid, well supported points to make and is just waiting to express them.

If the former, then I'll see your opinions for what they are worth - nothing. If the latter, then I anticipate some evidence to back up your criticisms.

Athon

I've discoverd, Athon, after probably a bit more than a decade of bulletin boards and forums like this, the "offensive" is in the eye of the beholder. There are several in here who are clearly already howling to the adminstrator about how I am engaging in ad homs and "offending" them. Of course, they cannot point to any actual ad homs _I've_ posted, and they cannot point to anything that is objectively "offensive," so instead they (will) rely upon sheer weight of numbers and complaints to eventually force the admins to remove me.

So be it.

I very much see the difference and only wish others who so readily take "offense" when their sacred cows are broiled would as well. And thank you for the welcome.

My criticism is quite simple: it's a feel-good approach to a quite serious problem that does nothing for those in need and is designed to keep the administrators of it in business (someone is paid to do this) and to make those donating to it feel good about "doing something." This one is particularly senseless. They are going to be providing laptop computers for Internet access to kids in places where a paperback textbooks are worth their weight in blood. In places where living past your 5th birthday is almost miraculous. In places where water is often collected from muddy pits. In places where diseases that here are virtually eradicated--malaria, polio, TB, etc.--run rampant. And on and on and on.

Now, if you are asking me for links--LIIIIINNNNKKKKSSS!!!--to something that says this particular program will not work, sorry...don't have any. For this, I'm relying upon common knowledge and my own experience in the world. Anecdotal? Sure. But there it is. By the way, if I ever make the argument: "the sun rises in the east," I won't be providing links--LIIIIINNNKKKSS!!!--for that either.

I did not say this program has sent laptops to warlords. This is an assertion (couched as a question) that relies upon both equivocation and a non sequitur.

No, I've never worked in such places, and while I laud you for it, your having done so is, first and foremost what's called a "single-file Indian" argument (anti-logical) and even more anecdotal than mine, because I am relying on widely-known events, and you are relying upon what happened to you, personally.

Followed by the (yawn) typical ad hom steeped in a thick sauce of oversimplification and the assertion that if one has not walked the same path as you, that person is utterly ignorant of "the situation" and therefore should just shut up. As a side exercise: can you name the top physicist in the world who has seen an atom?

Tokie

Tokenconservative

14th September 2007, 05:42 AM

For the record, my objections were answered and I offered no further objection pending the results of the pilot.

I wise course.

As for me, I remain (based upon what I've observed in my long years on this Earth) skeptical.

Perhaps I'll be proven wrong. If so, good!

Tokie

athon

14th September 2007, 06:46 PM

I've discoverd, Athon, after probably a bit more than a decade of bulletin boards and forums like this, the "offensive" is in the eye of the beholder. There are several in here who are clearly already howling to the adminstrator about how I am engaging in ad homs and "offending" them. Of course, they cannot point to any actual ad homs _I've_ posted, and they cannot point to anything that is objectively "offensive," so instead they (will) rely upon sheer weight of numbers and complaints to eventually force the admins to remove me.

I've seen no ad homs, but the general tone of your posts seems to be of one who couldn't care less if they offend somebody. You don't sound like somebody who came down in the last shower, so for you to really play the 'subjective' card in order to excuse yourself from coming across sounding like a bit of a prick (not saying I've seen you cross that line yet, but you seem to be setting the stage already) doesn't wash with me. You either understand that the tone of your posts could be more caustic to some individuals than they need be, or you don't. You seem to me to be somebody who understands the difference, though.

I very much see the difference and only wish others who so readily take "offense" when their sacred cows are broiled would as well. And thank you for the welcome.

As I said, it's rarely the broiling of sacred cows that pisses people off, but rather the manner in which it is done. Sure, some get upset no matter what. But the tone and style in which it is done should be kept in check.

But I do stand by my welcome, in which case.

My criticism is quite simple: it's a feel-good approach to a quite serious problem that does nothing for those in need and is designed to keep the administrators of it in business (someone is paid to do this) and to make those donating to it feel good about "doing something." This one is particularly senseless.

Fair criticism, if you could show that this is indeed the case. How do you know that this is a program which makes no difference? How do you know that those responsible are simply out for simple self-gratification to ease their 'guilt'? You seem to be speaking from mere gut feeling, which as you'll discover isn't how it works here. Skeptics ask for reason and evidence to support a claim or a criticism.

They are going to be providing laptop computers for Internet access to kids in places where a paperback textbooks are worth their weight in blood. In places where living past your 5th birthday is almost miraculous. In places where water is often collected from muddy pits. In places where diseases that here are virtually eradicated--malaria, polio, TB, etc.--run rampant. And on and on and on.

Most of these places are, in fact, politically quite stable and have access to basic trade, even if they continue to have problems with infrastructure and health. I'm yet to see any contrary evidence to the provision of cheap laptops to provide additional means of communication and technology. A perfect example of such measures working well was a mobile phone and internet program being given to Cambodians. They don't even have a stable landline infrastructure, and similar objections to what you're raising were brought up. Today, the project was deemed a massive success. Cambodia is the one country in the world where mobile phones outnumber landlines. The phones are used between farmers to organise trade prices and negotiate trade routes to get around unofficial 'toll' collectors.

My point is that even in impoverished areas which feel pre-industrial, and have massive problems, technology - if applied well - can be beneficial. In my experience in rural Australia, many Indigenous communities suffer from fairly poor conditions. Again, your criticisms were raised when it's suggested to provide internet access and old computers. Schools and the communities have seen large advantages from the introduction of technology and many such communities no have programs for health and education that were developed through their ability to access the net and have access to good technology.

Now, if you are asking me for links--LIIIIINNNNKKKKSSS!!!--to something that says this particular program will not work, sorry...don't have any. For this, I'm relying upon common knowledge and my own experience in the world. Anecdotal? Sure. But there it is. By the way, if I ever make the argument: "the sun rises in the east," I won't be providing links--LIIIIINNNKKKSS!!!--for that either.

Anecdotal would even be a start. I'm not necessarily after links (yes, some people here think everything demands a link to something), but some evidence of some sort to demonstrate you know what you're talking about - beyond armchair current affairs claims.

I did not say this program has sent laptops to warlords.

You insinuated it could be the case, that it could reflect 'what happens in Somalia'. If it is to be considered as a reason against the program, you would have evidence that this is the case. If not, it's a pointless remark.

No, I've never worked in such places, and while I laud you for it, your having done so is, first and foremost what's called a "single-file Indian" argument (anti-logical) and even more anecdotal than mine, because I am relying on widely-known events, and you are relying upon what happened to you, personally.

My travels and work in education (mostly to do with local events in Australia, however I have had some experience with African science communication programs) have included more than just personal experience. You suggest you're basing your view on 'widely-known events', yet are unable to do more than suggest in braod brush strokes that these laptops will be useless where they'll end up being sent. At the same time you're insinuating I don't have such wide-experience, as if having somewhat personal experience in third world education precludes me from understanding the wider picture. Sorry to inform you that watching the six o'clock news doesn't immediately give you a broad knowledge of such education programs and their worth. It takes a little more experience than that.

Once again, I can't claim to have a strong knowledge of this particular program. Your criticisms might well be valid. But you've said nothing to show you know one way or another. I'm attempting to point out that for criticisms to have worth beyond somebody just grumbling about gut feelings, they need to be backed up with something.

Followed by the (yawn) typical ad hom steeped in a thick sauce of oversimplification and the assertion that if one has not walked the same path as you, that person is utterly ignorant of "the situation" and therefore should just shut up. As a side exercise: can you name the top physicist in the world who has seen an atom?

Wow, for somebody who claims that others are overly sensitive to being offended, you seem to be somewhat touchy yourself. I wasn't comparing our paths at all, and frankly couldn't care for the purposes of this debate what you've done or where you've been, unless they are relevant. I'm merely asking you to ascert your criticisms and pointing out that my personal experiences in education lead me to form different conclusions which give me no reason to criticise the program prematurely. Your question on physics has nothing to do with the conversation.

Athon

lightcreatedlife@hom

14th September 2007, 11:40 PM

athon

15th September 2007, 01:34 AM

I think I might understand the kind of person you are, and what you might be going through Tokie. I think some of things that you have seen, all your many years, has pissed you off. If I stand in the room while a bomb expert, or a doctor, is working, because I am interested, I am going to pick up a few things. But teaching is done everywhere, by everybody. And most of us have spent the most "intense" part of our learning experience, looking at them, and the system in which they operated.

Being pissed off though, is not a reason to piss on other people... it only makes them want to piss on you.

Wow, what an interesting and yet non-surprising thing to say. It's interesting because it's such a naive view to have. It's non-suprising because so many people believe the same thing. In studies done, this same sort of 'populace expertise' exists with politics and criminal justice, believe it or not. In all three fields many in the population equate their personal experience with an expertise in the system. There's been several sociological studies done on it that seem to distinguish those three things beyond any other field.

Now, why couldn't you be more wrong? Mostly because pedagogy is not experienced by students first hand. Without going into the pitfalls of the education system which lets poor teachers slip through, pedagogy (the study of education) is not something students either study or directly experience first hand. Being taught is not the same as teaching, in any way. Never in a student's experience are they encouraged to consider classroom management, developmental psychology, differentiation of material, different learning styles, adaptation of technology for learning needs...and so forth.

You've displayed over and over again the belief that teaching is a simple matter of passing across information, akin to opening a student's head and decanting in knowledge. This approach has failed miserably in the past. Once, adoloescent education was what we call 'accidentally vocational'. This means that adolescents went through the system until they no longer coped and then dropped out to find employment elsewhere. Academics were left to attend tertiary studies, while those who left were removed from the system. The perception today is that more students are less capable than several decades ago, that the system is now 'failing' us, and that teachers are significantly at fault. The truth is that most systems are experiencing greater retainance numbers, hence a greater diversity of learning needs. Society is more complicated, career turnover (need for more skills) is greater, and evolution of technology is faster. All of these things demand more pedagogical responses than several decades ago.

Do I get 'pissed off' when people without any pedagogical experience claim that they fully understand education? Definitely. It's part of the problem teachers face - members of the public and bureacrats who feel that education is something everybody has experience in and therefore knows how to fix. Their solutions are often like your suggestions - just get in there and teach. Their suggestions finish there, however, without them ever stopping to ask if the methods employed are effective, and if not, why not. This is further compounded by teachers who are left over from the decades where students were self-selected, and who have minimal training in anything other than 'talk and chalk' teaching.

It is attitudes like your own, lol, that make my job more difficult than it needs to be. Luckily most people who do have such opinions are also those who stay clear and don't get involved in education. They prefer to keep a distance and not involve themselves. Furthermore, those who do step up to the plate and get their hands dirty tend to find that their previously naive views were indeed ignorant, and learn quickly that experience as a student is not the same as experience as an educator.

If you have such strong feelings on education, then I urge you to also be somebody who gets out there and gets involved. Join your kids P&C, go and become an educator. Hell, even just buy some books on pedagogy. But to stand back and rely on your experience as a student for your opinion on pedagogy is akin to me saying I can now do surgery because I've been operated on.

Most amazing of all is the fact that you probably still don't get this.

Athon

lightcreatedlife@hom

15th September 2007, 02:39 AM

Wow, what an interesting and yet non-surprising thing to say. It's interesting because it's such a naive view to have. It's non-suprising because so many people believe the same thing. In studies done, this same sort of 'populace expertise' exists with politics and criminal justice, believe it or not. In all three fields many in the population equate their personal experience with an expertise in the system.
I never said "expertise" for one, and the examples don't match up. Most people are see/interact with teachers for a good part of their lives, the same can not be said for the other two. Jailhouse lawyers, and the the everyday people who go into politics, show that just about anyone can get the hang of them without schooling.

Now, why couldn't you be more wrong? Mostly because pedagogy is not experienced by students first hand. Without going into the pitfalls of the education system which lets poor teachers slip through, pedagogy (the study of education) is not something students either study or directly experience first hand.
And therein is where the profession spends a lot of money on nothing. They study a set way of educating, then tell the teachers to be individuals.

Being taught is not the same as teaching, in any way. Never in a student's experience are they encouraged to consider classroom management, developmental psychology, differentiation of material, different learning styles, adaptation of technology for learning needs...and so forth.
Some people do those things without knowing what they are. Ask any good homeschooler. In fact, the management and psychology thing, are perform by parents everyday. And buying them a computer, covers the technology thing.
There are not many people who can take the scapel from the hand of the doctor, but most can open a book.

You've displayed over and over again the belief that teaching is a simple matter of passing across information, akin to opening a student's head and decanting in knowledge.
Or that is what you are trying to see.

Do I get 'pissed off' when people without any pedagogical experience claim that they fully understand education? Definitely. It's part of the problem teachers face - members of the public and bureacrats who feel that education is something everybody has experience in and therefore knows how to fix. Their solutions are often like your suggestions - just get in there and teach.
No. I say: use the tools that they are using. They can help teach.

It is attitudes like your own, lol, that make my job more difficult than it needs to be. Luckily most people who do have such opinions are also those who stay clear and don't get involved in education.
That is becoming hard, now that the school is sending home more and more homework. Something that makes up for what they couldn't do completely, do during the day.

They prefer to keep a distance and not involve themselves. Furthermore, those who do step up to the plate and get their hands dirty tend to find that their previously naive views were indeed ignorant, and learn quickly that experience as a student is not the same as experience as an educator.
Now who said it was? I was a student for 13 years, the rest of my experience is as an adult. One just as free with what I think.

If you have such strong feelings on education, then I urge you to also be somebody who gets out there and gets involved.
Being here is part of getting involved.

Join your kids P&C, go and become an educator. Hell, even just buy some books on pedagogy. But to stand back and rely on your experience as a student for your opinion on pedagogy is akin to me saying I can now do surgery because I've been operated on.
My "experience as a student"? Is that what you see?

Most amazing of all is the fact that you probably still don't get this.

Athon
I do get it, just not the way you think.

athon

15th September 2007, 02:59 AM

I never said "expertise" for one, and the examples don't match up. Most people are see/interact with teachers for a good part of their lives, the same can not be said for the other two. Jailhouse lawyers, and the the everyday people who go into politics, show that just about anyone can get the hang of them without schooling.

My point - which you missed - is that people express expertise in these fields on account of second-hand interaction, and with these in particular feel that all individuals in a community share equal weight of opinion on them without necessarily having 'expertise' in the field.

And therein is where the profession spends a lot of money on nothing. They study a set way of educating, then tell the teachers to be individuals.

Evidence of this, beyond another one of your 'gut feelings'? It doesn't echo my experience at all.

Some people do those things without knowing what they are. Ask any good homeschooler. In fact, the management and psychology thing, are perform by parents everyday. And buying them a computer, covers the technology thing.

Some aspects of home schooling are pedagogically sound, and have one up on systemised education in that individual attention is being paid to the student. However you missed most of what I said - pedagogy covers differentiated education, meeting diverse needs. Additionally, home schooling is often hit-and-miss when it comes to teaching social-awareness skills, including social critical awareness (coping with sharing and self-critiquing facts and opinions). Home schooled kids tend to have a higher ability to retain more information, but a lower ability to evaluate novel texts, which is key in critical literacy. There are several suggested reasons for this, primarily that without a varied social setting they have a higher tendency to be deprived of seeing how others form novel opinions and don't tend to see multiple viewpoints of the same text.

There are not many people who can take the scapel from the hand of the doctor, but most can open a book.

Huh? This makes no sense.

No. I say: use the tools that they are using. They can help teach.

Um, if people are trained in classroom management and pedagogy and are given the opportunity to develop classroom experience, they are teachers. If not, they have no place in taking charge of a curriculum. I don't see your point.

That is becoming hard, now that the school is sending home more and more homework. Something that makes up for what they couldn't do completely, do during the day.

Where is your evidence that schools are sending home more homework? You keep throwing out baseless assumptions as if you know what's happening.

Being here is part of getting involved.

Posting your views on a skeptic's bulletin board is getting yourself involved in education? Yeah...whatever...

My "experience as a student"? Is that what you see?

You said;

And most of us have spent the most "intense" part of our learning experience, looking at them, and the system in which they operated.

I can only interpret this to mean that your opinions are based on your time in association with an educational system, looking at teachers. You don't suggest you've done this as a teacher, therefore it must be as a student you form your opinions. If not, please correct me. If you won't be clear don't blame me for misinterpreting you.

I do get it, just not the way you think.

Well, you got that right. You've got something...I just have no idea what relevance it has to improving education.

Athon

athon

15th September 2007, 03:03 AM

I find it so peculiar that education is one field where all of those who have the easy answers are those who aren't active in the profession.

Athon

Darat

15th September 2007, 03:08 AM

...snip...

Now, why couldn't you be more wrong? Mostly because pedagogy is not experienced by students first hand. Without going into the pitfalls of the education system which lets poor teachers slip through, pedagogy (the study of education) is not something students either study or directly experience first hand. Being taught is not the same as teaching, in any way. Never in a student's experience are they encouraged to consider classroom management, developmental psychology, differentiation of material, different learning styles, adaptation of technology for learning needs...and so forth.

...snip...

I don't think this can be emphasised enough - I've used an analogy in the past to explain this to people: Would you consider going into a restaurant, ordering and the eating your food and paying your bill the same as running the business of a restaurant? That's the same difference most of us have with pedagogy and our own experience with the education system - we are consumers of the service it provides not providers and the two are not the same.

clerihew80

15th September 2007, 03:22 AM

I say give the little bastards what my school had when I was growing up - an Apple IIgs. Let them learn with that.

six7s

15th September 2007, 03:30 AM

I never said "expertise" for one

Expertise is, nevertheless, a pre-requisite to effective and efficient use of the time and effort needed to teach

They study a set way of educating, then tell the teachers to be individuals.

They study a variety of ways, then individual teachers refine their skills over time and, using self-assessment, peer-support and a shed-load of reading and thinking, aim to stay abreast of developments in a rapidly evolving environment

And buying them a computer, covers the technology thing.

There are not many people who can take the scapel from the hand of the doctor, but most can open a book.

Please, light, reconsider this attitude. I have paid for and received over 2,400 hours of tuition in information technology plus I have spent the last few years working full time in the field and I am the first to admit that, despite some framed documents on the wall that might suggest otherwise, I know ZIP about most of it

Owning a computer no more 'covers the technology thing' than going for a ride in a taxi prepares someone for a career in automotive design

Google 'helpdesk humour OR humor (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=helpdesk+humour+OR+humor&btnG=Search)' and see for yourself

athon

15th September 2007, 03:42 AM

I say give the little bastards what my school had when I was growing up - an Apple IIgs. Let them learn with that.

Haha. I grew up using Apple IIE computers. Learned all I know about programming on them. In other words, not a lot.

I can't believe how far PCs have come.

Athon

clerihew80

15th September 2007, 04:06 AM

Haha. I grew up using Apple IIE computers. Learned all I know about programming on them. In other words, not a lot.

I can't believe how far PCs have come.

Athon
We had Apple IIE's too, but only the slow kids used them.

six7s

15th September 2007, 05:17 AM

I can't believe how far PCs have come

Apple II: 48 KB RAM (max)
OLPC: 128KB L2 cache (min)

Yeah... some progress ;)

Tokenconservative

15th September 2007, 06:32 AM

Tokenconservative

15th September 2007, 06:58 AM

I've seen no ad homs, but the general tone of your posts seems to be of one who couldn't care less if they offend somebody. You don't sound like somebody who came down in the last shower, so for you to really play the 'subjective' card in order to excuse yourself from coming across sounding like a bit of a prick (not saying I've seen you cross that line yet, but you seem to be setting the stage already) doesn't wash with me. You either understand that the tone of your posts could be more caustic to some individuals than they need be, or you don't. You seem to me to be somebody who understands the difference, though.

As I said, it's rarely the broiling of sacred cows that pisses people off, but rather the manner in which it is done. Sure, some get upset no matter what. But the tone and style in which it is done should be kept in check.

But I do stand by my welcome, in which case.

Fair criticism, if you could show that this is indeed the case. How do you know that this is a program which makes no difference? How do you know that those responsible are simply out for simple self-gratification to ease their 'guilt'? You seem to be speaking from mere gut feeling, which as you'll discover isn't how it works here. Skeptics ask for reason and evidence to support a claim or a criticism.

Most of these places are, in fact, politically quite stable and have access to basic trade, even if they continue to have problems with infrastructure and health. I'm yet to see any contrary evidence to the provision of cheap laptops to provide additional means of communication and technology. A perfect example of such measures working well was a mobile phone and internet program being given to Cambodians. They don't even have a stable landline infrastructure, and similar objections to what you're raising were brought up. Today, the project was deemed a massive success. Cambodia is the one country in the world where mobile phones outnumber landlines. The phones are used between farmers to organise trade prices and negotiate trade routes to get around unofficial 'toll' collectors.

My point is that even in impoverished areas which feel pre-industrial, and have massive problems, technology - if applied well - can be beneficial. In my experience in rural Australia, many Indigenous communities suffer from fairly poor conditions. Again, your criticisms were raised when it's suggested to provide internet access and old computers. Schools and the communities have seen large advantages from the introduction of technology and many such communities no have programs for health and education that were developed through their ability to access the net and have access to good technology.

Anecdotal would even be a start. I'm not necessarily after links (yes, some people here think everything demands a link to something), but some evidence of some sort to demonstrate you know what you're talking about - beyond armchair current affairs claims.

You insinuated it could be the case, that it could reflect 'what happens in Somalia'. If it is to be considered as a reason against the program, you would have evidence that this is the case. If not, it's a pointless remark.

My travels and work in education (mostly to do with local events in Australia, however I have had some experience with African science communication programs) have included more than just personal experience. You suggest you're basing your view on 'widely-known events', yet are unable to do more than suggest in braod brush strokes that these laptops will be useless where they'll end up being sent. At the same time you're insinuating I don't have such wide-experience, as if having somewhat personal experience in third world education precludes me from understanding the wider picture. Sorry to inform you that watching the six o'clock news doesn't immediately give you a broad knowledge of such education programs and their worth. It takes a little more experience than that.

Once again, I can't claim to have a strong knowledge of this particular program. Your criticisms might well be valid. But you've said nothing to show you know one way or another. I'm attempting to point out that for criticisms to have worth beyond somebody just grumbling about gut feelings, they need to be backed up with something.

Wow, for somebody who claims that others are overly sensitive to being offended, you seem to be somewhat touchy yourself. I wasn't comparing our paths at all, and frankly couldn't care for the purposes of this debate what you've done or where you've been, unless they are relevant. I'm merely asking you to ascert your criticisms and pointing out that my personal experiences in education lead me to form different conclusions which give me no reason to criticise the program prematurely. Your question on physics has nothing to do with the conversation.

Athon

Warning: long post.
Nor will you see any, until they come my way. At which point a couple of things will happen:
1. I will respond in kind, but am much, MUCH better at it than most (and have an almost spooky ability to "read" people--shoulda been one of them cold reading guys!--and figure out the best button to push),
2. This will cause much umbrage and outrage on the part of the target who, you may remember "started it," but who is now aware that he/she/other is in WAY over his/her/other head and will immediately,
3. Run to a mod/admin. type and begin filing complaint after complaint and,
4. Enlist the aid of his/her/other "friends" in the forum to do the same.

I am a prolific writer, and the mod/admin, being besiged by these complaints will:
1. Be unable to keep up with it all and decide the best course is to just ban this distruptive Tokie fellow...this often comes after a series of very vitriolic, very personal attacks on me (which the mod/admin ignores) and the complainant, in his/her/other best attempts comes back with some 4th grade-playground insult,
2. Issue a couple of reprimands/warnings, whatever is the case,
3. Ban me for calling someone "ignorant" or some other such rather milquetoast (because you are not going to catch me screaming obscenities or talking about anybody's mother in here...unless of course she's the type of woman you poke with a fork and she bleeds mayonaise...) but entirely fair, if somewhat subjective (possibly) thing (most people believe "ignorant" is synonomous with "you so dumb, when it rains you look up with your mouth open and drown..."--this, by the way may come back to haunt me...someone will inappropriately claim I am, here, saying this to YOU, right now!).

I am not playing the "subjective" card. Things really are subjective in many cases. I am not one to argue that the laws of thermodynamics are subjective, but I will argue that "poor" (economic state) for example, is subjective. "Poor" in Camaroon means something quite different from "poor" in Detroit, after all.

I do understand the difference. My style IS caustic. Gee, imagine that. Some people are short, some are tall, some are fat, some are thin...some believe discourse should be fun, spirited and yes, can become "caustic," others believe in puling "c-can't we all j-ust get along!?" And this IS subjective. Some people are so brittle and weak they believe that even the mildest, kindest questioning of something they believe is akin to Operation Barbarossa.

These are the kind that, I can guarantee it, have already begun to besiege the mods and admins in here about this horrid Tokie person.

As for your assertion that the broiling is not the thing of it, but rather the temperature at which the broiling is done: Yes, I suppose this is true, but the brittle weak types noted above are unable to have thier cow(s) prepared simply by the thing dropping over onto a hot sidewalk.

And I again thank you for your welcome.

I don't KNOW that this is a program that makes no difference any more than I KNOW that the sun will rise tomorrow. However, since for the past (roughly) 17,155 days of my life, the sun has with remarkable regularity, done just that. As well, for the past, oh, let's say, roughly, 9800 days of my life, virtually every time I've seen something like this put into operation, what I've described in my yes, pessimistic view, has happened with almost the same regularity of old Sol popping up over the easter horizon every a.m.
What you are asking me to do here, is prove the future. I can't do that, though I am guessing there are links to site in this forum of those who believe they can. I'm only expressing my doubts, base upon my (anecdotal) experience, and I don't feel I need to supply any more concrete examples of that than: pay attention. You don't seem like you fell outcher momma's womb yesterday, either...you've seen many or even all or more of these boondoggles, too.

Finally, no, I am not touchy. You have made a subjective-emotional error in your thinking (even though you know I am "caustic" in my debating style). You did indeed posethe while fairly common, laughably illogical "if you haven't been dere and done dat, youse can't be talkin' smack 'bout it!" assertion. This is the same as saying "you cannot say that Auschwitz was a bad place 'cuz you warn't never thar!"

Um...yeah, actually...the pretty well-known evidence suggests it was not Club Med,Krakow.

My use of "!" by the way is simple hyperbole (you can call me on THAT if you want, becasue that's one thing I do do! I was not calling you doo-doo here...), it does not mean I am pouding in fury on my keyboard because unlike you, I never joined the Peace Corps.

So...now that we have all these personal issues about me out of the way, maybe we can continue the conversation at hand?

Tokie

Tokenconservative

15th September 2007, 07:14 AM

I never said "expertise" for one, and the examples don't match up. Most people are see/interact with teachers for a good part of their lives, the same can not be said for the other two. Jailhouse lawyers, and the the everyday people who go into politics, show that just about anyone can get the hang of them without schooling.

And therein is where the profession spends a lot of money on nothing. They study a set way of educating, then tell the teachers to be individuals.

Some people do those things without knowing what they are. Ask any good homeschooler. In fact, the management and psychology thing, are perform by parents everyday. And buying them a computer, covers the technology thing.
There are not many people who can take the scapel from the hand of the doctor, but most can open a book.

I do get it, just not the way you think.

To be completely fair to athon, light...um, teaching one or two or even 7-8 kids at home is NOTHING like teaching (herding and babysitting) 25-30 (and the assciated 75-120 "parents") in a public or even private school setting.

You cannot believe the levels of BS a public school teacher has to wade through ere he/she is allowed to "just teach." And then, the tied of sewage he/she faces after having taught, both from administrators and parents. You haven't lived until you've sat across from 4-6 "parents" each one assuring you that you are a moron and each one telling you a different means by which their elfin' darlin' needs to be taught while your boss agrees with all of them.

For those who've not experienced this from that side of the desk...it's eye-opening.

While I don't myself subscribe to all the mealy-mouthed, mumbo-jumbo that comes from "professional educators" about pedagogy and all them other big woids (often as a means of making the rest of us feel stupid, by the way--and often transfered to "teachers" during CE courses that take place on beaches in Florida...), it's very true that simply having gone through the system yourself hardly prepares you to be a teacher.

I have a brother who is absolutely brilliant at what he does, the "go to" guy for this high-tech stuff in this state. He is a math whiz and I've asked him on occasion to help my kids (proud to report that he now says the older one is working beyond his skill level). His idea of "teaching" when the kid simply does not get it, is to repeat what he just said, only louder.

Now, this, it so happens, worked with that kid...probably because she is like a smaller, younger female version of my brother. But it's not a catch-all approach.

My interaction with teachers, for most of my public school career was terrible from both sides. I was a miserable little brat and I am not one of those kids who rememers that "special" teacher. Most of my teachers, in looking back, were incompetent morons and a good many were spiteful, nasty types who had no business being in teaching. Nonetheless, I developed a love of learning (mostly becasue from grade 7 on, I spent most school days ditching my classes in the library) and am today, I think, a pretty good teacher myself (not full-time these days).

And that without even knowing what "pedagogy" means.

Tokie

lightcreatedlife@hom

15th September 2007, 04:25 PM

Warning: long post.
Nor will you see any, until they come my way. At which point a couple of things will happen:
1. I will respond in kind, but am much, MUCH better at it than most (and have an almost spooky ability to "read" people--shoulda been one of them cold reading guys!--and figure out the best button to push),
2. This will cause much umbrage and outrage on the part of the target who, you may remember "started it," but who is now aware that he/she/other is in WAY over his/her/other head and will immediately,
3. Run to a mod/admin. type and begin filing complaint after complaint and,
4. Enlist the aid of his/her/other "friends" in the forum to do the same.

I am a prolific writer, and the mod/admin, being besiged by these complaints will:
1. Be unable to keep up with it all and decide the best course is to just ban this distruptive Tokie fellow...this often comes after a series of very vitriolic, very personal attacks on me (which the mod/admin ignores) and the complainant, in his/her/other best attempts comes back with some 4th grade-playground insult,
2. Issue a couple of reprimands/warnings, whatever is the case,
3. Ban me for calling someone "ignorant" or some other such rather milquetoast (because you are not going to catch me screaming obscenities or talking about anybody's mother in here...unless of course she's the type of woman you poke with a fork and she bleeds mayonaise...) but entirely fair, if somewhat subjective (possibly) thing (most people believe "ignorant" is synonomous with "you so dumb, when it rains you look up with your mouth open and drown..."--this, by the way may come back to haunt me...someone will inappropriately claim I am, here, saying this to YOU, right now!).
"Weapons and battle plan ready sir."

Why? Because:

I am not playing the "subjective" card. Things really are subjective in many cases. I am not one to argue that the laws of thermodynamics are subjective, but I will argue that "poor" (economic state) for example, is subjective. "Poor" in Camaroon means something quite different from "poor" in Detroit, after all.
I agree.

I do understand the difference. My style IS caustic. Gee, imagine that. Some people are short, some are tall, some are fat, some are thin...some believe discourse should be fun, spirited and yes, can become "caustic," others believe in puling "c-can't we all j-ust get along!?" And this IS subjective. Some people are so brittle and weak they believe that even the mildest, kindest questioning of something they believe is akin to Operation Barbarossa.
I agree.

Why are we on alert again?
These are the kind that, I can guarantee it, have already begun to besiege the mods and admins in here about this horrid Tokie person.
"I know they are out there."

Finally, no, I am not touchy. You have made a subjective-emotional error in your thinking (even though you know I am "caustic" in my debating style). You did indeed posethe while fairly common, laughably illogical "if you haven't been dere and done dat, youse can't be talkin' smack 'bout it!" assertion. This is the same as saying "you cannot say that Auschwitz was a bad place 'cuz you warn't never thar!"

Um...yeah, actually...the pretty well-known evidence suggests it was not Club Med,Krakow.
I agree

So...now that we have all these personal issues about me out of the way, maybe we can continue the conversation at hand?

Tokie
We agree on most things, and you just gave a long version of what posted earlier. My experience is the thread "light created life", these things need not always end badly. Good luck.

athon

15th September 2007, 05:09 PM

So...now that we have all these personal issues about me out of the way, maybe we can continue the conversation at hand?

Tokie

Well, I've got no problem with that. I've not sent a single complaint to the mods in my time here (and if you look at how long that's been under my avatar, it's been more slightly than a few weeks). I'm not about to start with you any time soon. But I will say I didn't get where I am today by responding to 'he started it' excuses. When somebody insults me, I see no point in childish debate and I walk the other way. The fact somebody as old as you feels 'eye for an eye' works boggles my mind. But, so be it. You'll find this is a tolerant board.

As for continuing with the conversation at hand, I'm not sure what there is to continue. You've made a call on the program yet the only substance offered has been general, sweeping references to your lifetime where you've simply seen stuff.

You'll see the word 'woo' being thrown around this board, indicating those who believe in paranormal, superstitious and magical thinking. They tend to use typical 'woo' arguments, such as logical fallacies and non-specific evidence which alludes to general experience. General experience relies on a sample size of one - your own life. It is biased and skewed. I'll fully admit it for myself, as well. I've seen programs like this work well and, if relying on that, would say it's likely to be a success. However I don't know much about how it runs or who runs it, or its program funding, the influence of its organisers...I know little. Therefore I have to put my gut feeling aside and ask for evidence one way or another.

For you to not stand neutral until you have evidence outside of vague life experiences reflects (mind I'm not accusing you of being one) woo thinking. Good skepticism demands evidence, and until you have it, no opinion is required.

Athon

lightcreatedlife@hom

15th September 2007, 06:47 PM

My point - which you missed - is that people express expertise in these fields on account of second-hand interaction, and with these in particular feel that all individuals in a community share equal weight of opinion on them without necessarily having 'expertise' in the field.
I don't think that.

Some aspects of home schooling are pedagogically sound,
That is because learning and teaching had been going on long before someone thought it should be given the right to put "science" in its title.

and have one up on systemised education in that individual attention is being paid to the student.
Right. And even the best teachers, can be hard pressed to do that for the class of 30.

However you missed most of what I said - pedagogy covers differentiated education, meeting diverse needs.
And parents don't?

Additionally, home schooling is often hit-and-miss when it comes to teaching social-awareness skills, including social critical awareness (coping with sharing and self-critiquing facts and opinions).
Everything has weaknesses, that's nearly a given. On the other hand, it holds some advantages in that same area.

Home schooled kids tend to have a higher ability to retain more information, but a lower ability to evaluate novel texts, which is key in critical literacy. There are several suggested reasons for this, primarily that without a varied social setting they have a higher tendency to be deprived of seeing how others form novel opinions and don't tend to see multiple viewpoints of the same text.
Right.

Um, if people are trained in classroom management and pedagogy and are given the opportunity to develop classroom experience, they are teachers. If not, they have no place in taking charge of a curriculum. I don't see your point.
The essentials of being a teacher, are part of the everyday workings of parents. Good parents are teachers, especially those from large families.

Where is your evidence that schools are sending home more homework? You keep throwing out baseless assumptions as if you know what's happening.
There is a thread nearby about too much summer homework.

Posting your views on a skeptic's bulletin board is getting yourself involved in education? Yeah...whatever...
From your angle, I know very little about the education system, but when I turn to confront people outside this forum, I will have what is said here, behind me. I will be able to deliver as smoothly as 42 did about OLPC, because it would be him delivering it. I know about the education law in Denmark, and that homeschooling is working in Cincinati. Through this forum, I can put them in contact with people who are there, now.
I can gain a bit of experience through their experience. I'll look like a genius.

What do you think a forum is for? What do the people who belong to forums, get out of the experience? That might make a good thread.

Tokenconservative

16th September 2007, 07:23 AM

Well, I've got no problem with that. I've not sent a single complaint to the mods in my time here (and if you look at how long that's been under my avatar, it's been more slightly than a few weeks). I'm not about to start with you any time soon. But I will say I didn't get where I am today by responding to 'he started it' excuses. When somebody insults me, I see no point in childish debate and I walk the other way. The fact somebody as old as you feels 'eye for an eye' works boggles my mind. But, so be it. You'll find this is a tolerant board.

As for continuing with the conversation at hand, I'm not sure what there is to continue. You've made a call on the program yet the only substance offered has been general, sweeping references to your lifetime where you've simply seen stuff.

You'll see the word 'woo' being thrown around this board, indicating those who believe in paranormal, superstitious and magical thinking. They tend to use typical 'woo' arguments, such as logical fallacies and non-specific evidence which alludes to general experience. General experience relies on a sample size of one - your own life. It is biased and skewed. I'll fully admit it for myself, as well. I've seen programs like this work well and, if relying on that, would say it's likely to be a success. However I don't know much about how it runs or who runs it, or its program funding, the influence of its organisers...I know little. Therefore I have to put my gut feeling aside and ask for evidence one way or another.

For you to not stand neutral until you have evidence outside of vague life experiences reflects (mind I'm not accusing you of being one) woo thinking. Good skepticism demands evidence, and until you have it, no opinion is required.

Athon

Some good points, and I'm glad to read that you at least--since it seems likely that for whatever short amount of time I am here, we will be butting heads--are not the run-to-mommy-crying type. Trust me, however, the mods here have already begun to compile a growing catalog of complaints.

I'm still not completely sure what "woo" is, but I at least follow what you are saying. Which is fine. First, I'm not apparently ABLE to post links--LIIIIINNNNKKKSSSSS!!!--here. Second, I only reference things I've read (this is something you do with a think called a "book" or perhaps a "periodical,"--made out of dead trees Algoreforgiveme) and so won't ever post a link--LIIIIINNNNKKKKK!!!--anyway.

Good to hear you won't resort to ad homs, I only hope that you are equally discerning in your analysis abilities. That is to say that even if I am, as you've noted, "caustic," that you will not as so many do/have begin running around shrieking that that mean ol' Tokie has begun a nasty, prolonged ad hom against you by...um, by saying that you are wrong!

A "wait and see" approach is sometimes good, sometimes not. The OP has come in here not simply asking that we look at this program and offer opinions, but that we support it (this, regardless of what is actually said, means "give us money!"). It is, indeed, anecdotal, but in my experience (life) I have yet to run across one of these such programs that has done what it's lofty goals set out for it (have you gone back to that village in the Equadorian Highlands to see whether the water pumps you installed 30 years ago have been sold for scrap metal?). That is almost never the fault of helpful, hopeful folks such as (I hope) the OP or of folks like you who have gotten involved.

But good intentions rarely put the kibosh on corruption--again, in my experience (no...I don't have any stats to back this up).

And from what I can tell, this program is no different: it's goal is to take large amounts of money, convert it into devices that can be easily hijacked and resold by various corrupt officials, warlords, etc. They have not established the sort of basic infrastructure in many/most of their targeted areas that will support this sort of high-tech "help" and at least some of the places they are going to send these devices are places where most of those intended to be "helped" don't have clean drinking water, good and certain food supplies and lack electricity either at all or most of the time.

While I laud good intentions, I laud only those that at least operate within the framework of reality. I note (as some have before me) that the road to a very nasty place remains paved with them, though on occasion some truckload of mercenaries will drive up and pry a bunch of them out of the road for sale on the blackmarket.

Tokie

Tokenconservative

16th September 2007, 07:38 AM

I don't think that.

That is because learning and teaching had been going on long before someone thought it should be given the right to put "science" in its title.

Right. And even the best teachers, can be hard pressed to do that for the class of 30.

And parents don't?

Everything has weaknesses, that's nearly a given. On the other hand, it holds some advantages in that same area.

Right.

The essentials of being a teacher, are part of the everyday workings of parents. Good parents are teachers, especially those from large families.

There is a thread nearby about too much summer homework.

From your angle, I know very little about the education system, but when I turn to confront people outside this forum, I will have what is said here, behind me. I will be able to deliver as smoothly as 42 did about OLPC, because it would be him delivering it. I know about the education law in Denmark, and that homeschooling is working in Cincinati. Through this forum, I can put them in contact with people who are there, now.
I can gain a bit of experience through their experience. I'll look like a genius.

What do you think a forum is for? What do the people who belong to forums, get out of the experience? That might make a good thread.

1. Athon makes a good point, and we ALL do this. I work in a specialize, licensed field...but would long ago have retired had I a dollar for every person who does not work in my field who's told me how to do my job. Teachers are very familiar with this, but I've had teachers tell me how to do my job, too....

2. Athon (and others) correctly point up, however, that it is not 1790...or even 1950, and that today, in order for our kids to enter THIS world (I am assuming you live in a developed part of the world, light) with any hope of success, their educations must be specialized. It's not enough today, to teach them how to plant corn and/or sew a new bonnet. However (and again, no idea what you have were you are) where I live, in a state with the second highest per-capita numbers of home-school kids, there are any number of places parents can send their kids "outside" for specialized/advanced assistance. Of course, the teacher's union here still attempts to shut that down, but for many years (this all changed with the last election, and a fullscale assault on it has already begun) we had a very pro-family, pro-education, and pro-homeshool governor and state legislature.

3. Much of the rest of Athon's (a teacher) post has to do with that old heebie-jeebie bugaboo the "professional" education industry has used for decades now to shut out competition from private, home and charter (choice) schooling: that your kids will not be socialized at all (home), that your kids will not be sufficiently socialized with others from different backgrounds (PC) and that because of this, they will be unprepared to face the "real world" (indoctrinated in leftist ideologies).

Here, your noting that homeschooling was typically the ONLY kind of schooling up until the Germans made public school mandatory in the 1870s, and its spread to the rest of the civilized...oops!--developed world, is entirely accurate. Using examples from the United States, there is little to suggest that such luminaries as George Washington, Thos. Jefferson, James Madison, et al., suffered in the least little bit by being home schooled.

They were, of course, guilty of being white, now guilty of being dead, but this had nothing to do with their being educated at home.

Tokie

six7s

16th September 2007, 01:53 PM

The OP has come in here not simply asking that we look at this program and offer opinions, but that we support it

I can imagine how you could infer that.

However, that was not what I aimed to imply

I am not involved in the project at all and, prior to posting the OP, the very little time I had spent reading about it raised more questions than were being answered

Hence the OP, here on a sceptics forum on education

My personal aim ('agenda' if you will) for this thread, then and now, is to benefit from the shared insight of intelligent, opinonated and sceptical educators
and, hopefully, increase my own critical thinking skills in the process

:)

Tokenconservative

16th September 2007, 03:39 PM

I can imagine how you could infer that.

However, that was not what I aimed to imply

I am not involved in the project at all and, prior to posting the OP, the very little time I had spent reading about it raised more questions than were being answered

Hence the OP, here on a sceptics forum on education

My personal aim ('agenda' if you will) for this thread, then and now, is to benefit from the shared insight of intelligent, opinonated and sceptical educators
and, hopefully, increase my own critical thinking skills in the process

:)

Understood.

Tokie

Axiom_Blade

16th September 2007, 05:10 PM

I'm still not completely sure what "woo" is, but I at least follow what you are saying. Which is fine. First, I'm not apparently ABLE to post links--LIIIIINNNNKKKSSSSS!!!--here. Second, I only reference things I've read (this is something you do with a think called a "book" or perhaps a "periodical,"--made out of dead trees Algoreforgiveme) and so won't ever post a link--LIIIIINNNNKKKKK!!!--anyway.

Wow. Troll's new meme is awsum.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/zelifcam/links.jpg

You have enlightened me, good sir.

athon

16th September 2007, 05:50 PM

3. Much of the rest of Athon's (a teacher) post has to do with that old heebie-jeebie bugaboo the "professional" education industry has used for decades now to shut out competition from private, home and charter (choice) schooling: that your kids will not be socialized at all (home), that your kids will not be sufficiently socialized with others from different backgrounds (PC) and that because of this, they will be unprepared to face the "real world" (indoctrinated in leftist ideologies).

Calling it 'heebie-jeebie bugaboo' is simply more avoiding the key points, dismissing it all once again with a wide 'I don't want to discuss the details, but I don't like the sound of it' move.

First of all, the education 'industry', as such, is a conglomerate of factors. Resource creators, government departments, private institutions, individual tutors...all could be stated to be part of this 'industry'. I'm going to assume from your argument (correct me if I'm wrong) that by industry you are really meaning government sponsored education in the US. If so, it has nothing to do with my argument here, as I have not taken a view from any particular part of the educational community.

Home schooling has numerous advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantages do include reduced diversity in interactions. I'm not sure how you can disagree with that. Many home schooled families balance this through engaging their children through other community programs and events, such as scouts or sporting teams or cultural groups. I personally have no problem with this. US 'Charter' schools have always seemed to me to be an excellent idea that has suffered from a range of problems. I won't enter into an argument on them purely because my knowledge on their situation is limited.

Pedagogy does suffer from people seeing it some narrow, jargon-dominated field of developmental and cognitive psychology. It has had its fair share of kookie fashions come and go (don't get me started on half of them), but at its core it is a field of research which focusses on how to best prepare individuals in a community for contributing to and benefiting from a changing society.

I worked in a medical industry before education, and heard many of the same dismissive statements made by people outside of the industry, of how most medicine was 'mumbo-jumbo' and how most doctors didn't know what they were doing. In both situations, it is offered by people who don't have a sound understanding of the context of the research or a basic foundation in the practice.

Here, your noting that homeschooling was typically the ONLY kind of schooling up until the Germans made public school mandatory in the 1870s, and its spread to the rest of the civilized...oops!--developed world, is entirely accurate. Using examples from the United States, there is little to suggest that such luminaries as George Washington, Thos. Jefferson, James Madison, et al., suffered in the least little bit by being home schooled.

Few people received an education at all, much less than beyond some basic literacy and fundamental numeracy skills. I don't see how this relates to modern education at all. Many individuals homeschooled were tutored in a very particular field, with a family business passed down to them. This works well if the entire aim is to have inherited trades; unfortunately, in today's world individuals are given the choice as to what they might want to do as they go through life, and need the skills to be flexible in adapting to novel situations. This doesn't happen in a non-diverse setting.

Additionally, homeschooling has a greater tendency to underprepare students for tertiary independence, as previously the ratio of tutor to student was limited to no more than one adult to several students. Many struggle with a new environment where they are expected to perform without constant personal encouragement.

I have nothing against homeschooling. The low teacher-student ratio is of huge benefit. However to believe it is problem free and is always the optimum choice (as I often get told) is nonsense.

Athon

Tokenconservative

17th September 2007, 05:51 AM

Calling it 'heebie-jeebie bugaboo' is simply more avoiding the key points, dismissing it all once again with a wide 'I don't want to discuss the details, but I don't like the sound of it' move.

I have nothing against homeschooling. The low teacher-student ratio is of huge benefit. However to believe it is problem free and is always the optimum choice (as I often get told) is nonsense.

Athon

Actually, calling it heebie-jeebie and bugaboo is a fun way of not dismissing it wholesale, but pointing up that public education in America from the teacher colleges, through the process pre-K (now required in some places)-12 to the public colleges is frought with problems that are, in many cases insurmountable at this late date.

The rather mindless, rote expectation that all homeschooled kids are locked in a closet in their race-seperatist family's secluded compound is simply heebie-jeebie scarum set out by the industry in order to negate this and thereby, hopefully, retain their (the union's, primarily) power. I'm glad to see you are open-minded enough not to place yourself in that harem-scarum camp.

To claim this industry (as it appears you are attempting) is something other than an industry is puzzling, but not unexpected. I guess it might be something else, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....I'm not sure what else to call it, if you have a better term for it, please share.

You clearly know more about education pedagogy than (it's YOUR industry, not mine), me, but I've been around a while and intently interested in education fashions (and yes, that is primarily what they are since so many are later found to be wholly without merit and more often than not, uttler counterproductive) since those that informed my own public school career in the 60s and 70s were so screwed up, and since I've had my own kids and a strong desire not to see them face more of the same (something I dodged by having them in private and homeschooling K-9th or so..one of them skipped 8th grade entirely).

Charters do have their problems, problems the regular public schools are eager and happy to trumpet and assist in growing larger, whenever they can.

As for your definition of pedagogy, like so much else in the public schools, it looks good on paper, but rarely is it effectively--or at all--put into practice in the um...well, schools. Yes, yes...it's all well and good to have teachers get all that CE on a beach in Boca, but the reality is, they then come back and as far as I can tell, are still doing the same demonstrably failed things they were when I was a kid.

The primary focus of "the schools" since the mid-60s is not educating kids. It's first and foremost providing employment for teachers and thereby full coffers down to the union hall. Secondarily, they are socialist laboratories where socialist ideals are tested and kids are indoctrinated in socialism.

And many times, those in an (any) industry, be it medicine or teaching or what I do, don't know what they are doing, and there are ALWAYS gradiations of skill. Unfortunately, in your current profession (and your past profession, too) a "professional" in education who is well...not, can have far more profound an effect on many individuals and those around them, and our society at large than I will in what I do. My incompetence might cost somene a few dollars. Big deal. The general incompetence of so very many teachers costs the individual student AND society much, much more.

And by the way, I've had both doctors and teachers tell me how to do MY job, too.

Yes, back in the Founders day few people re'cd an education, but it's not possible for me to compare education today with non-edcuation in those times, so I must instead compare education today with education then. A perfect comparison? No...sort of like comparing oranges to grapefruit, but certainly not (as many in education claim) like comparing apples to farm tractors.

Educationalists always fall back on the "diversity" issue (well, at least you aren't claiming homeschooled kids enter the world as unsocialized Charlie Mansons...). Instead, you fall back here on the racial issue. Yep, all homeschooled kids (especially all the black, Hispanic and Asian ones--and all those girls) are horrifically racist and sexist. That's been my experience, anyway, and apparently it's en vogue in the current pedagogy to point this up. I will agree that you are being very subtle about it, but it's very clear to me that this is exactly what you are saying.

I don't know what experience you have with homeschoolers/schooled kids, but in fact, in most homeschooling environments, the students are expected to work far more independently than are those in a public school "community." That's the way we did it, and that's the way every other homeschool parent I've known has done it. Perhaps you have a wider experience with these folks than me.

Finally, I guess I am not certain where I stated that (all) homeschooling is "problem-free." Can you reference where I did so? I will read back through that to be sure that that's actually what I was saying, and if so, offer my mea culpas, because it's certainly not something I believe.

Homeschooling is fraught with problems, but (and I may also be wrong about this) public schooling is too. From my experience, so is private schooling. Or frying an egg. Or combing your hair. Or driving a car. Or waking up in the morning.

Tokie

Tokenconservative

17th September 2007, 05:53 AM

You have enlightened me, good sir.

Just one among the many fine services I offer.

Tokie

athon

17th September 2007, 06:40 AM

Upfront apology for the long post:

Actually, calling it heebie-jeebie and bugaboo is a fun way of not dismissing it wholesale, but pointing up that public education in America from the teacher colleges, through the process pre-K (now required in some places)-12 to the public colleges is frought with problems that are, in many cases insurmountable at this late date.

My experience with US education is second hand. I've worked in English and Australian schools, private, comprehensive and state, and have worked with American educators in conjunction with various ICT and science programs. Beyond that I can't claim to have worked directly in any US system. As such, I won't pretend to have first hand experience of its problems or successes, and won't procede to defend or attack it. Just so you bear in mind where my experience does and does not arise from.

To claim this industry (as it appears you are attempting) is something other than an industry is puzzling, but not unexpected. I guess it might be something else, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....I'm not sure what else to call it, if you have a better term for it, please share.Perhaps we have different views as to what 'industry' implies or can be defined as. I find the term implies something uniform in aim and approach, which isn't the case when it comes to all manifestations of structured education. But if you define precisely what you mean by 'education industry', I'll accept your definition in the future.

You clearly know more about education pedagogy than (it's YOUR industry, not mine), me, but I've been around a while and intently interested in education fashions (and yes, that is primarily what they are since so many are later found to be wholly without merit and more often than not, uttler counterproductive) since those that informed my own public school career in the 60s and 70s were so screwed up, and since I've had my own kids and a strong desire not to see them face more of the same (something I dodged by having them in private and homeschooling K-9th or so..one of them skipped 8th grade entirely).I agree that there is a lot of poorly implemented programs in pedagogical practice. There's several reasons for this. Firstly, pedagogy has only been taken seriously in the past couple of decades by a wider range of systems throughout the world. Increasingly since the 60s and 70s in post industrial nations, competition for skilled jobs has increased and demanded higher qualifications. Governments have demanded that students stay in school longer, pushing up retaining levels to all time highs. Students who weren't academically inclined were being encouraged to remain. In the US, UK and Australia (perhaps others, however these cover my knowledge) proper vocational education schemes were lacking until the early 90s, when it became recognized that academia was only one piece of the problem. I don't know how the UK handled it, but in Australia most states have worked hard to equalize pathways for diverse student needs.

Relatively short government terms meant short-term vision when it came to education. Each government wanted fast solutions to what was perceived as an educational problem brought on by increased retaining levels. Academics run trial programs in effective schools, and determine particular programs to be increasingly successful. Surprisingly (or not), this reflected the fact that these pedagogical advances were indeed effective. Most 'fashions' are based on good research and sound pedagogy. The changes in educational needs in the past few decades had good responses in modern pedagogy. Their research is not dodgy or based on mumbo-jumbo - it usually works as intended.

So, what goes wrong?

Teachers need efficient professional development when new programs are implemented. Programs don't work so well when they are blended half heartedly. Imagine a doctor being given a new technique to do surgery, and yet is not fully trained in it. Little surprise the surgeon gets a few more corpses on their tally. Yet with short term government visions, limited funding and low respect for the teaching profession, educators don't get much more than a pamphlet and a day or two in training before they are expected to apply the new system. When it goes pear shaped, the next government term comes along, picks another educational fashion and tries to convince skeptical teachers that this will work even better. The cycle begins again.

Some schools remove themselves effectively from this cycle and implement some fantastic programs in which teachers are effectively trained. I've seen both good and bad schools; I've seen systems implemented brilliantly and poorly. I've got not reason to doubt the pedagogy behind it, even if I'm cynical about how some systems go about attempting to apply it.

As for your definition of pedagogy, like so much else in the public schools, it looks good on paper, but rarely is it effectively--or at all--put into practice in the um...well, schools. Yes, yes...it's all well and good to have teachers get all that CE on a beach in Boca, but the reality is, they then come back and as far as I can tell, are still doing the same demonstrably failed things they were when I was a kid.Well, I think I more or less addressed this above.

The primary focus of "the schools" since the mid-60s is not educating kids. It's first and foremost providing employment for teachers and thereby full coffers down to the union hall. Secondarily, they are socialist laboratories where socialist ideals are tested and kids are indoctrinated in socialism.Again, I can't speak from first hand experience in any US state government education system. However, from my reading and experience, there are high expectations from most educational systems which simply lack the committment from communities and state funding. I find it hard to believe that any system simply wants to keep education alive for teacher employment. I know of no teacher who is in it for the cushy lifestyle and money (heh, as if). It is always for the love and value of education.

And many times, those in an (any) industry, be it medicine or teaching or what I do, don't know what they are doing, and there are ALWAYS gradiations of skill. Unfortunately, in your current profession (and your past profession, too) a "professional" in education who is well...not, can have far more profound an effect on many individuals and those around them, and our society at large than I will in what I do.Without knowing (or asking) what you do, I can only agree. And, yes, out of a desperate need for teachers, most systems will lower the skill level needed to take in more educators. Believe me, I accept fully the problem this presents.

And by the way, I've had both doctors and teachers tell me how to do MY job, too.I'm sure there are few professions immune to this. However, there is good documentation that shows a higher percentage of the population elevating their own expertise when it comes to education, law and politics.

Educationalists always fall back on the "diversity" issue ...Instead, you fall back here on the racial issue. Yep, all homeschooled kids (especially all the black, Hispanic and Asian ones--and all those girls) are horrifically racist and sexist. That's been my experience, anyway, and apparently it's en vogue in the current pedagogy to point this up. I will agree that you are being very subtle about it, but it's very clear to me that this is exactly what you are saying.Not sure where you get that at all, so since you assume I'm being 'subtle' I can only assume you're reading more into it than I intend. By 'diversity' I'm meaning explicitly educational, social and cultural differences, not 'racial' as such. You might want to expand cultural to mean racial, but I mean diversity as in socioeconomic, religious, educational, political as well as ethnic. As such, physiology has little to do with it, at least when it comes to just skin colour. Look up 'the hidden curriculum' to see what the majority of stuff a kid learns in school is about. Much of this cannot be conveyed in a home environment with kids of homogenous backgrounds.

I don't know what experience you have with homeschoolers/schooled kids, but in fact, in most homeschooling environments, the students are expected to work far more independently than are those in a public school "community." That's the way we did it, and that's the way every other homeschool parent I've known has done it. Perhaps you have a wider experience with these folks than me.Many homeschool parents like to feel this is true, and it's indeed true that if a parent is likely to homeschool, they are prepared to put more effort into teaching their child good habits and to dedicate time and effort into their education. This says more about the correlation between a parent's desire to see their child succeed and their willingness to put effort into their child's education, however, and less about the benefits of home schooling in particular.

However there is also a correlation between that resultant low teacher-student ratio and a lower ability for the student to adapt to an independent lifestyle at university. I have personal experience of both; homeschool and mixed homeschool programs where students seemed incredibly reliant on their parents, and programs where students appeared to have a large amount of initiative. Either way, I'm going on my reading experience in the journals more than my personal experience in this matter.

Finally, I guess I am not certain where I stated that (all) homeschooling is "problem-free." Can you reference where I did so? I will read back through that to be sure that that's actually what I was saying, and if so, offer my mea culpas, because it's certainly not something I believe.I apologise if what I said sounded like I meant you in particular. It was a mix of hyperbole on my behalf and generalisation on most of the rants I tend to hear from homeschool advocates, where most seem to suggest homeschooling is a universal solution to the problems in state education. Far from a panacea, it is an option for those parents who have the means and the resources to implement it.

Athon

Tokenconservative

17th September 2007, 09:16 AM

Upfront apology for the long post:

My experience with US education is second hand. I've worked in English and Australian schools, private, comprehensive and state, and have worked with American educators in conjunction with various ICT and science programs. Beyond that I can't claim to have worked directly in any US system. As such, I won't pretend to have first hand experience of its problems or successes, and won't procede to defend or attack it. Just so you bear in mind where my experience does and does not arise from.

Perhaps we have different views as to what 'industry' implies or can be defined as. I find the term implies something uniform in aim and approach, which isn't the case when it comes to all manifestations of structured education. But if you define precisely what you mean by 'education industry', I'll accept your definition in the future.

I agree that there is a lot of poorly implemented programs in pedagogical practice. There's several reasons for this. Firstly, pedagogy has only been taken seriously in the past couple of decades by a wider range of systems throughout the world. Increasingly since the 60s and 70s in post industrial nations, competition for skilled jobs has increased and demanded higher qualifications. Governments have demanded that students stay in school longer, pushing up retaining levels to all time highs. Students who weren't academically inclined were being encouraged to remain. In the US, UK and Australia (perhaps others, however these cover my knowledge) proper vocational education schemes were lacking until the early 90s, when it became recognized that academia was only one piece of the problem. I don't know how the UK handled it, but in Australia most states have worked hard to equalize pathways for diverse student needs.

Relatively short government terms meant short-term vision when it came to education. Each government wanted fast solutions to what was perceived as an educational problem brought on by increased retaining levels. Academics run trial programs in effective schools, and determine particular programs to be increasingly successful. Surprisingly (or not), this reflected the fact that these pedagogical advances were indeed effective. Most 'fashions' are based on good research and sound pedagogy. The changes in educational needs in the past few decades had good responses in modern pedagogy. Their research is not dodgy or based on mumbo-jumbo - it usually works as intended.

So, what goes wrong?

Teachers need efficient professional development when new programs are implemented. Programs don't work so well when they are blended half heartedly. Imagine a doctor being given a new technique to do surgery, and yet is not fully trained in it. Little surprise the surgeon gets a few more corpses on their tally. Yet with short term government visions, limited funding and low respect for the teaching profession, educators don't get much more than a pamphlet and a day or two in training before they are expected to apply the new system. When it goes pear shaped, the next government term comes along, picks another educational fashion and tries to convince skeptical teachers that this will work even better. The cycle begins again.

Some schools remove themselves effectively from this cycle and implement some fantastic programs in which teachers are effectively trained. I've seen both good and bad schools; I've seen systems implemented brilliantly and poorly. I've got not reason to doubt the pedagogy behind it, even if I'm cynical about how some systems go about attempting to apply it.

Well, I think I more or less addressed this above.

Again, I can't speak from first hand experience in any US state government education system. However, from my reading and experience, there are high expectations from most educational systems which simply lack the committment from communities and state funding. I find it hard to believe that any system simply wants to keep education alive for teacher employment. I know of no teacher who is in it for the cushy lifestyle and money (heh, as if). It is always for the love and value of education.

Without knowing (or asking) what you do, I can only agree. And, yes, out of a desperate need for teachers, most systems will lower the skill level needed to take in more educators. Believe me, I accept fully the problem this presents.

I'm sure there are few professions immune to this. However, there is good documentation that shows a higher percentage of the population elevating their own expertise when it comes to education, law and politics.

Not sure where you get that at all, so since you assume I'm being 'subtle' I can only assume you're reading more into it than I intend. By 'diversity' I'm meaning explicitly educational, social and cultural differences, not 'racial' as such. You might want to expand cultural to mean racial, but I mean diversity as in socioeconomic, religious, educational, political as well as ethnic. As such, physiology has little to do with it, at least when it comes to just skin colour. Look up 'the hidden curriculum' to see what the majority of stuff a kid learns in school is about. Much of this cannot be conveyed in a home environment with kids of homogenous backgrounds.

Many homeschool parents like to feel this is true, and it's indeed true that if a parent is likely to homeschool, they are prepared to put more effort into teaching their child good habits and to dedicate time and effort into their education. This says more about the correlation between a parent's desire to see their child succeed and their willingness to put effort into their child's education, however, and less about the benefits of home schooling in particular.

However there is also a correlation between that resultant low teacher-student ratio and a lower ability for the student to adapt to an independent lifestyle at university. I have personal experience of both; homeschool and mixed homeschool programs where students seemed incredibly reliant on their parents, and programs where students appeared to have a large amount of initiative. Either way, I'm going on my reading experience in the journals more than my personal experience in this matter.

I apologise if what I said sounded like I meant you in particular. It was a mix of hyperbole on my behalf and generalisation on most of the rants I tend to hear from homeschool advocates, where most seem to suggest homeschooling is a universal solution to the problems in state education. Far from a panacea, it is an option for those parents who have the means and the resources to implement it.

Athon

!?! Apologies upfront for my misperception...I should've known by your control of the language and your thinking, but I thought you were an AMERICAN teacher!

Of course it's much, MUCH different in Aus/NZ and in GB, to be sure. In GB, you folks looked at your system what, in the 80s or so, recognized that it was a total balls-up and...CHANGED it!

We have looked at our system here in the States, recognized that it is a total balls-up and have decided the way to fix it is to ignore its flaws but throw lots more money at it.

At this point, I have to take back virtually everything I've said to you, because as a GB or Aus educator, that's what you actually DO, and your studies of pedagogy actually probably amount to something more than a beachside seminar which you simply cannot fail and from which you gain little more than perhaps a nice tan.

This is the continuing education is done for "educators" in the US.

Not sure what you mean by "vocational." Here (US) our high school experience for the past 25-30 years has been primarily aimed at making teachers believe they are sort of junior college teachers. Vocational training here is a thing of the past. What this means is that kids not terribly interested in or with little aptitude for further learning (college) are left to founder. Meanwhile, we are allowing MILLIONS of illegal aliens who mostly work in the trades in to take the jobs these kids would, traditionally, have taken.

But that's okay. We have lots of shopping malls. And a very strong need for people to sell earrings, sunglasses and mobile telephone accessories in kiosks in the shopping centers.

To tell you the truth, Athon, I simply could not take you seriously when I though you were an American teacher.

Here, "education" is a huge, politically powerful, wealthy industry. K-12, it is utterly controlled by the teachers unions, primarily the National Education (ha!) Association. Education (industry) here is a jobs program for teachers, and has very little to do with teaching.

Now, I'll have to read your stuff with an eye toward it being not only viable THINKING, but also information that probably has not only intellectual but also practical application.

Please don't believe the propaganda. Schools here in some rural areas and some poorer urban areas can be underfunded, but most are amply funded. Where I live, each student who attends high school brings with him/her nearly $8000. I believe, nationally, our education costs on average are something like double those of the French. Our schools are, generally, funded just fine. It's the use of those funds that is...questionable. Oh, and teachers are paid plenty. In rural areas, they are typically the best-paid residents in the area. Where I live, the avg. yearly wage (and remember, this does not include an embarassingly rish benefits package nor does it take into account the teaching schedule leaves teachers working maybe 8 full months of the year...) is about $50,000. That's not going to make them rich, but it's a pretty decent living, esp. when coupled with the benefits package.

No teacher I've ever met who is a GOOD teacher i in it for the "cushy" lifestyle. But here, anyway, many are. The reality is, that many simply cannot make as nice a living doing anything else, so the "settle for" teaching once they realize what they bring to the marketplace is not otherwise in demand.

Look, I hold a college degree (4-year) in English. It has absolutely NO marketability in the larger commercial marketplace here. None. Zip. Our colleges churn out tens of thousands of others with these degrees every year. What else are they going to do with them?

No reason to apologize....

Question: do people homeschool (are they permitted to?) in GB and Aus?

Tokie

lightcreatedlife@hom

17th September 2007, 01:31 PM

!?! Apologies upfront for my misperception...I should've known by your control of the language and your thinking, but I thought you were an AMERICAN teacher!

Of course it's much, MUCH different in Aus/NZ and in GB, to be sure. In GB, you folks looked at your system what, in the 80s or so, recognized that it was a total balls-up and...CHANGED it!

We have looked at our system here in the States, recognized that it is a total balls-up and have decided the way to fix it is to ignore its flaws but throw lots more money at it.

At this point, I have to take back virtually everything I've said to you, because as a GB or Aus educator, that's what you actually DO, and your studies of pedagogy actually probably amount to something more than a beachside seminar which you simply cannot fail and from which you gain little more than perhaps a nice tan.

Listening to you I hear an experienced, better informed, and more vocal version of myself.

Vocational training here is a thing of the past.
It looks to me that the rest of the system, "ate" the money that used to go towards vocational training. Yet, the rest of the system, does not seem to have gained anything from the resources, time, and effort it had to have saved, by not doing it.

Tokenconservative

19th September 2007, 04:16 PM

Listening to you I hear an experienced, better informed, and more vocal version of myself.

It looks to me that the rest of the system, "ate" the money that used to go towards vocational training. Yet, the rest of the system, does not seem to have gained anything from the resources, time, and effort it had to have saved, by not doing it.

You flatter me. I am likely only OLDER than you. I am about the last person in the world you should think of as "informed" I am a bit vocal, nonetheless.

Oh, not at all! What they've gained is more money to pay teachers who want to present themselves as Mini Me College Profs. Since there's no longer any smelly shop teachers bellowing at their students in the bowels of the school, the high school has become a far more academic envirionment.

Yes...it's true, many of the students there have no aptitude nor desire and certainly financial ability to attend college, but oh..well...screw 'em!

This, by the way, is part 'n parcel of the "self esteem" movement in the schools. See, if you make students who are not going to college "feel" good about themselves, they will forget that they are learning nothing in their public school career, esp. the last 3-4 years, that will help them join larger society.

But hey, we'll always need clerks in those shopping mall cell phone kiosks, right?

Tokie

athon

19th September 2007, 07:41 PM

!?! Apologies upfront for my misperception...I should've known by your control of the language and your thinking, but I thought you were an AMERICAN teacher!

I should have made that clear up front. It tends to create a lot of debate here - people carry on about how bad 'education' is, forgetting this is a global board and there are many different systems in the world. Then I commit the same error and don't specify the fields I have the most experience in.

Of course it's much, MUCH different in Aus/NZ and in GB, to be sure. In GB, you folks looked at your system what, in the 80s or so, recognized that it was a total balls-up and...CHANGED it!

It depends on where you're referring in the UK. Scotland has quite a decent system. I know little of Ireland and Wales, unfortunately, but England's is questionable as to whether the changes it has experienced in recent decades have been 'improvements', as such. I won't derail this thread further by going into depth, but the English system has some problems of its own.

Australia also has its flaws, but as I'm most familiar with practices here I will also be more critical of them. That said, I'm quite proud of most aspects of our state and national approach to education here.

At this point, I have to take back virtually everything I've said to you, because as a GB or Aus educator, that's what you actually DO, and your studies of pedagogy actually probably amount to something more than a beachside seminar which you simply cannot fail and from which you gain little more than perhaps a nice tan.

Pedagogical studies are equally as good in the US. You guys have the funding for good research, and a good majority of papers I've read exploring various pedagogies arise in the US. However, it appears this doesn't trickle down to where they would do any good, and aren't implemented in a satisfactory fashion.

Not sure what you mean by "vocational." Here (US) our high school experience for the past 25-30 years has been primarily aimed at making teachers believe they are sort of junior college teachers. Vocational training here is a thing of the past. What this means is that kids not terribly interested in or with little aptitude for further learning (college) are left to founder. Meanwhile, we are allowing MILLIONS of illegal aliens who mostly work in the trades in to take the jobs these kids would, traditionally, have taken.

Vocational education is any curriculum which is directly relative to a trade or an industry practice. In the past, it was distinct in Australia and the UK from secondary schools, belonging distinctly in the realm of colleges or, here in Oz, TAFEs. There is now an increasing trend for certifications to be made consistent and to be threaded in with high school programs to make more aspects of education more relevant, and to maintain options for students at every step. It is common to have students at the same school studying either to become a carpenter, taking trade-related mathematics and commerce subjects and practicing carpentry at the local college, next to a student who is going to go on to tertiary to study medicine and who is doing advanced maths and biology.

To tell you the truth, Athon, I simply could not take you seriously when I though you were an American teacher.

That's unfortunate, because I've worked with a lot of American educational academics who are extremely well informed in good pedagogical practices. My last seminar was run by a gent from Colarado, whose approach to using Web 2.0 technology in the classroom was revolutionary (in my view).

Please don't believe the propaganda. Schools here in some rural areas and some poorer urban areas can be underfunded, but most are amply funded. Where I live, each student who attends high school brings with him/her nearly $8000. I believe, nationally, our education costs on average are something like double those of the French. Our schools are, generally, funded just fine. It's the use of those funds that is...questionable.

Without any facts of figures in front of me or a sound knowledge of the bureacracy in the US, I can only tentatively take your word for that.

Oh, and teachers are paid plenty. In rural areas, they are typically the best-paid residents in the area. Where I live, the avg. yearly wage (and remember, this does not include an embarassingly rish benefits package nor does it take into account the teaching schedule leaves teachers working maybe 8 full months of the year...) is about $50,000. That's not going to make them rich, but it's a pretty decent living, esp. when coupled with the benefits package.

It's not too different here. Many teachers complain about their wage, but I can't understand why. I'm on more in my current position than I would have been had I remained in pathology. The holidays are also wonderful (and you get more of them in the US), but are extremely necessary to prevent burn out.

Question: do people homeschool (are they permitted to?) in GB and Aus?

Yes, and there is a rather good system to account for that. Many people do a mix, where they send their kids to school for two or three days a week and then keep them home the rest. I've got two students now who do that. Both are fantastic kids, however neither fits in at school all that well. They keep to themselves and don't like doing group work. I know this is anecdotal, and relies on my experience only, however there are some articles I have around here somewhere which suggest it is rather common, and goes into measures parents and teachers should take to address it.

Athon

lightcreatedlife@hom

19th September 2007, 09:04 PM

But hey, we'll always need clerks in those shopping mall cell phone kiosks, right?

Tokie

Where I live that would be good, here. Unfortuately many of our grads will end up enrolled in the "prison program", thanks to the war on drugs being waged against its victims.

Tokenconservative

21st September 2007, 06:17 AM

It depends on where you're referring in the UK. Scotland has quite a decent system. I know little of Ireland and Wales, unfortunately, but England's is questionable as to whether the changes it has experienced in recent decades have been 'improvements', as such. I won't derail this thread further by going into depth, but the English system has some problems of its own.

Australia also has its flaws, but as I'm most familiar with practices here I will also be more critical of them. That said, I'm quite proud of most aspects of our state and national approach to education here.

Pedagogical studies are equally as good in the US. You guys have the funding for good research, and a good majority of papers I've read exploring various pedagogies arise in the US. However, it appears this doesn't trickle down to where they would do any good, and aren't implemented in a satisfactory fashion.

Vocational education is any curriculum which is directly relative to a trade or an industry practice. In the past, it was distinct in Australia and the UK from secondary schools, belonging distinctly in the realm of colleges or, here in Oz, TAFEs. There is now an increasing trend for certifications to be made consistent and to be threaded in with high school programs to make more aspects of education more relevant, and to maintain options for students at every step. It is common to have students at the same school studying either to become a carpenter, taking trade-related mathematics and commerce subjects and practicing carpentry at the local college, next to a student who is going to go on to tertiary to study medicine and who is doing advanced maths and biology.

That's unfortunate, because I've worked with a lot of American educational academics who are extremely well informed in good pedagogical practices. My last seminar was run by a gent from Colarado, whose approach to using Web 2.0 technology in the classroom was revolutionary (in my view).

Without any facts of figures in front of me or a sound knowledge of the bureacracy in the US, I can only tentatively take your word for that.

It's not too different here. Many teachers complain about their wage, but I can't understand why. I'm on more in my current position than I would have been had I remained in pathology. The holidays are also wonderful (and you get more of them in the US), but are extremely necessary to prevent burn out.

Yes, and there is a rather good system to account for that. Many people do a mix, where they send their kids to school for two or three days a week and then keep them home the rest. I've got two students now who do that. Both are fantastic kids, however neither fits in at school all that well. They keep to themselves and don't like doing group work. I know this is anecdotal, and relies on my experience only, however there are some articles I have around here somewhere which suggest it is rather common, and goes into measures parents and teachers should take to address it.

Athon

Well, no system is perfect. The French for example, claim theirs to be the premier approach, and yet they continue to be French!

All I know of the English system is that it changed much under Thatcher, and one improvement was to stop using the school system there to reinforce their caste system.

Of course, Lady Hillary, when she was our co-president, wanted to sneak the exact same failed system into our schools through the back door. Just as she is now hoping to give us Canada's system of socialized medicine.

Just so. Our studies in just about every area are as good or better'n almost anybody else's in almost any area, including education and that is indeed because we have the money. We pour an enourmous amount of money down the endless rathole of public education, so why not a few dollars tossed at pedegogy? But just because a study shows this, that or the other thing in the social-sciences laboratory does not mean it will transfer well to the field, nor that it will be implemented well there. Now, you guys may well take our studies and apply them to the utmost. We tend to take them and use them to beat someone down, to make things easier for teachers, or to squeeze more money out of the electorate for the schools.

What scared the bejaysuz out of me when I started teaching 5th grade was looking at the same curriculum I saw when I was that age. It was worse than useless then, but had somehow gotten itself recycled (not ALL recycling is good) for use in screwing up another generation of young Americans.

We used to (even when I was a lad) have a very strong vocational educational system in our public schools, including specialized 9-12th grade (15-18 years/age) schools that did nothing but teach auto mechanics, woodworking, drafting, graphic arts, HVAC, etc.

Please don't believe those American (teachers, etc. usually) in here who claim that funding for our schools has dwindled. It has not. Everything I've read suggests we pay, on average, more per student for "education" in this country than does anyone else in the world with the possible excepton of Switzerland, I believe. $$ to our schools, nationwide has grown and grown and grown. But in that growth, strangely, funding for vocational education has all but gone away. Right now, the schools are simply quitely eliminating by attrition "shop" programs. As the old teachers retire/die, they are simply doing away with this courses of study. Interestingly enough, this coincides quite nicely with the rapid influx of illegal workers in our country, most of whom work in the trades (don't believe our media when they tell you most of these people work for pennies a day cleaning bathrooms).

Some would say to this that simple correlation proves no conection. Perhaps.

The result, however, if to leave many young people, especially young men foudering after high school (even if they graduate). Since high school teachers, through their immensely politically powerful union, have pushed and pushed to present themselves to our society as a sort of college-professor-in-training class, rather than what they are, our schools are aimed virtually entirely at college prep. So, if you are one of those kids who has not desire, aptitude or ability to go to college...you are SOL.

Yes, many are well-educated in all this stuff. Too few are able to put into practice good old fashioned teach, mayhaps because their brains are drowning in the latest-greatest means to "teach." They spend more time engaging in social experimentatin, and not enough time...TEACHING.

I don't begrudge teachers their pay or holidays. I do USE that as a club to beat them about the head and shoulders when the run around whining about how poorly paid they are. Teachers here, with the exception of NEW teachers are reasonably well-paid for what they do when one factors in (as teachers NEVER do) the embarassingly rich benefits package and the lax schedule. Now, what teachers always--ALWAYS--do when you catch them out on this is say "b-but look at all the work we have to do ON OUR OWN TIME!!!" The point is that for their skillsets, competence-levels (generalizing here--I know a maths teacher who could probably go toe-to-toe with Hawking) and abilities, they are very well compensated. The reality is that most teachers enter this field not for a love of teaching, but because they find themselves at loose ends as to vocational direction in college, look into it, find it to be a relatively easy field to enter (getting your Ed. degree here is a joke..ask me about "literary theme" in an upper level Education class I took, sometime), well paying (given their other option that involves this phrase: "would you like fries with that?") and of course...all that time off!

LOL. Welcome to modern America. Even craftspeople and tradesmen today, bring work home. I don't know anyone who doesn't bring work home. And they don't get 2-3 months off in the summer, a couple or three around Christmastime, and a week in the spring to recover from it.

I work for myself. I haven't had a real vacation (holiday) in 6 years.

My experience with homeschooled kids is also mixed. In general, I've always found them to be among the most mature and pleasant kids. However, your description about the two you know also fits how many other kids who have spent their entire educational careers in the public schools? My oldest has gone to school at a small private and is now in a large public high school and spent a very short time being homeschooled. She is painfully shy and introverted, hardly ever speaks up and it takes her years to develop friendships. It's quite possible what you are seeing has nothing whatever to do with where/how these kids are being schooled.

The hard, cold reality is that home and private-schooled kids tend to come out the other end better educated. My kids are in their first and second years at a public high school and even they can recognize that the scattershot approach used in virtually all their classes (and they are in "Honors" and "Advanced Placement" classes) is nowhere near as effective as the linear approach used in the private they attended and that we used when they were homeschooled.

I don't imagine that it's a big surprise to you to learn that a willy-nilly approach does not work as well as a concrete, linear one, but it seems to surprise teachers here.

Tokie

six7s

5th February 2008, 05:15 PM

...I can't claim to have a strong knowledge of this particular program

That could change :)

OLPC laptops set to hit Australia (http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/OLPC-laptops-set-to-hit-Australia-/0,130061702,339285656,00.htm)
Suzanne Tindal, ZDNet.com.au
05 February 2008 02:43 PM

Australia is set to get its very own OLPC arm, to deliver XO laptops to schoolchildren across the country.

The first hints of the Australian launch surfaced at linux.conf.au in Melbourne, with the organisation hoping to build supp...

Source: zdnet.com.au news hardware (http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/OLPC-laptops-set-to-hit-Australia-/0,130061702,339285656,00.htm)

:armtwist:

;)

six7s

7th March 2009, 12:18 PM

13 months on...

Google News: Results 1 – 10 of about 326 for One-Laptop-Per-Child (http://news.google.com/news?ned=us&hl=en&q=%22One+Laptop+Per+Child%22)
One Laptop Per Child unveils summer grant program (http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=190478)
Tehran Times - Mar 4, 2009
One Laptop Per Child, the Cambridge nonprofit organization that has sometimes struggled with its mission to bring $100 laptops to the world's poor children, ...

One Laptop Per Child: Global PC Makers Might Pass (http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/mar2009/gb2009032_026553.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_global+business)
BusinessWeek - Mar 2, 2009
By Vivian Yeo Multinational PC makers, on the other hand, will continue their focus on mini-notebooks, Reuben Tan, IDC's senior manager for personal systems ...

Laptops bring lessons, maybe even peace (http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/03/05/one.laptop.per.child/)
CNN International - Mar 5, 2009
"For them to propose this was astounding," said Keller, who works for One Laptop per Child, a Cambridge, Massachusetts, nonprofit committed to creating and ...

One Laptop, Much Controversy (http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=526820)
Harvard Crimson - Feb 26, 2009
Last month, One Laptop per Child—an NGO aiming to provide a $150 laptop to very child in the world—suffered major production setbacks, laid off half of its ...College Students Join Together for a Worldwide Grassroots Learning ... MSNBC
OLPC launches OLPCorps to send XOs into schools Electronista
OLPC launches internship team program Mass High Tech

European delegation brings laptop promise per child (http://www.economist.com.na/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10943:european-delegation-brings-laptop-promise-per-child&catid=534:community-a-culture&Itemid=58)
Namibia Economist - Mar 6, 2009
Representatives from the One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) European Foundation recently visited Namibia to map the way forward for the initiative that is gaining ...
TSN.ca

Brady donates 1000 laptops to One Laptop per Child (http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=latestnewsdetail&pid=36334&pcid=45)
Patriots.com - Feb 19, 2009
Brady donated 1000 laptops to One Laptop per Child to be distributed among the organization's 31 participating countries and Boys and Girls Clubs in each of ...

Tonga to trial One Laptop per Child (http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-tonga-trial-one-laptop-per-child-/2009/02/19/4001422.htm)
TMCnet - Feb 19, 2009
Regional director for Oceania's One Laptop Per Child, Michael Hutak said the programme is a global non profit organisation that aims to bring revolutionized ...

A YouTube Page:www.youtube.com/user/OLPCFoundation (http://www.youtube.com/user/OLPCFoundation)
KtZLbTR29WM

A Blog: blog.laptop.org/ (http://blog.laptop.org/)
Start a Laptop Project to Change Kids’ Lives Worldwide!
March 5, 2009 at 11:13 pm · Filed under Health, OLPC, Support-Gang, XO by holt

Nonprofit One Laptop per Child is offering free XO Laptop loans and a strong network of dedicated Volunteer Mentors (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Support_Gang) for visionaries of all ages, enabling grassroots projects worldwide.

Over half a million XO Laptops are in the hands of kids worldwide today, in South America, Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Oceania. These kids are not only changing their own lives, but are also changemakers in their villages, cities and countries. The laptops they receive contain software and content not only to learn academic subjects, but also empowering them to understand the world around them (learning online and off) materially engaging their families, environment and beyond.
Do you believe in a worldwide “Science Fair” of organic learning?
Do you know a teacher you can work with to create exceptional software?
Can you find exceptionally creative persons in your area?
Anyone can contribute: would you mentor a small group of tinkerers, or might you alone write a 21st century textbook to be put on all our laptops? Simply demonstrate your project furthers innovative education in poor countries, architecting something new — we will then provide the hardware you need to lead the way.<snip/>

And the Wiki is still busy: wiki.laptop.org/go/Home (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Home)
# Last edited on 07:30, 6 March 2009.
# This page has been accessed 2,302,581 times.

Travis

10th March 2009, 06:27 PM

Some good news in there. I'm hoping this is successful.

LarianLeQuella

11th March 2009, 07:32 PM

Oh noes! People LEARNING! How do we keep the masses ignornat and under our thumbs now?

(/snark) :p

I have always been a fan of this program since I first heard of it.

backstab

24th March 2009, 08:06 PM

OLPC program is a pretty good idea.

Mitchell314

25th March 2009, 06:45 AM

OLPC program is a pretty good idea.

If used right, laptops in schools can be an enormous boon. Otherwise, it's just extra weight to carry around. Although in poorer countries, you can get more bang for a buck on with a laptop.

Safe-Keeper

25th March 2009, 10:07 AM

If used right, laptops in schools can be an enormous boon. Otherwise, it's just extra weight to carry around. Although in poorer countries, you can get more bang for a buck on with a laptop.Right. Allowing them in classrooms without some sort of control is just moronic, and does nothing but reduce concentration as the students spend the period on Facebook.

six7s

25th March 2009, 12:21 PM

Right. Allowing them in classrooms without some sort of control is just moronic, and does nothing but reduce concentration as the students spend the period on Facebook.Yep...

And anyone incapable of leading students (aka disciples) is, by definition, not an educator

etymonline.com term=educate (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=educate)
1447, from L. educatus, pp. of educare "bring up, rear, educate," which is related to educere "bring out," from ex- "out" + ducere "to lead"

LarianLeQuella

25th March 2009, 12:38 PM

Keep in mind that generally these won't be connecting to the entire series of tubes, just a local series of tubes. Facebook probably isn't something that a student in Mali will be concentrating on. ;)

six7s

25th March 2009, 01:46 PM

Keep in mind that generally these won't be connecting to the entire series of tubes, just a local series of tubes.Yep... more often than not...

wiki.laptop.org Internet (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Internet)

Internet connectivity
Although OLPC itself is assuming that there won't be connections in many places, some laptops will be deployed in cities that have some type of Internet connectivity, even if it is more expensive and lower bandwidth than what Americans are used to.

OLPC is selling Laptops to governments. The governments will have to decide what Internet connections they can afford to include in the package they provide to schools.

OLPC project's role
Since the OLPC is primarily an educational project, we are less concerned with providing Internet access to kids and more concerned with providing a laptop that is capable of networking locally. Since both the Internet, and the OLPC laptop use the standard IP protocols, there are numerous ways in which schools, towns and countries can extend connectivity beyond the built-in mesh network.

Child friendly internet
for details, see Internet safety (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Internet_safety)

We expect that most countries will not want to just dump the kids onto the global Internet, but will want to build their own Internet that provides a rich variety of resources targetted to children and available in their own language.

Mitchell314

25th March 2009, 06:58 PM

Right. Allowing them in classrooms without some sort of control is just moronic, and does nothing but reduce concentration as the students spend the period on Facebook.

I wasn't even referencing that. Our schools has a laptop-per-student program, and from my observations, the biggest ... hold up is the lack of knowledge in computer use for teachers as well as students. This is largely in part learning curve problem; as time went on, things ran more smoothly. Especially with making electronic documents. It's the little things that matter; such as using MS's One Note to organize notes. Another example: new's related class material can easily be pulled from online. How does such and such relate to now? What does the History Channel's website have on topic X? Etc.

six7s

25th March 2009, 07:34 PM

A spell chequer wood bee well come, two

GreNME

25th March 2009, 08:17 PM

Here at home we've participated in the "give one get one" program twice. One computer we received went to my better half's nephew, the other is sitting not far from me at the moment.

Don't mistake these with the laptop or netbook you'd get from Best Buy, because these are nothing of the sort. The entire user interface is built around a very simple, very task-oriented way of getting to the different things this laptop allows you do do. My better half's nephew has managed to get very proficient with it in the time he's had it, having switched over to using it almost exclusively for his time playing with a computer, and he's already working with images, recording himself on video, and fiddling with the basics of the other program packages that can be downloaded to the laptop. Right now they're trying to figure out how to export the videos he's been making and get them uploaded to YouTube to share with his grandparents.

Oh, and this kid is five years old. He'll be six this summer.

His parents, while very smart people, are not the most computer-literate and are unfamiliar with what Linux is, let alone the highly-specialized version on the XO. Their son figured out how to get it working himself and needed their help only to read the directions to get it updating to the newest firmware. I tease his parents and tell them that he's going to be "hacking the Gibson" in no time.

He's a smart kid, but that doesn't mean that he's an exceptional example of what this can do for kids. He went into using the XO without preconceptions, and the older he gets the more things he learns it can do. The same applies for kids in less wealthy nations, where there's often a very similar lack of preconceived notions of what computers are supposed to do, and thus they don't have the same learning curve someone coming from a common PC would have transitioning to it. The hardware is highly underpowered, but the software is efficient which means it tends to stay viable as a tool and even an entertainment device for a fairly long life span. A kid could get one of these when he's five and still find useful applications for it when he's ten or twelve, due mostly to the few dozen specialty programs that can be utilized and the projects in place adding more and more things people can do with the hardware that's already present on the machine. Want to learn to make a rudimentary seismometer-- the XO allows you to have one. For the budding tinkerer there are programs allowing them to 'build' things and see if they produce results. If a child is creative, they can give a go at writing or doodling. For those who find reading attractive, the screen can be turned around like a tablet and it changes contrast to make it readable in daylight (which also saves juice). The network awareness in the mesh networking allows children to see who else has an XO on at the time, allowing them to share between each other as well as with a central server or instructor.

This is really a great piece of technology, and is very well implemented because it seems designed to engage children's minds on many different levels and makes their worlds a little bit bigger. The more of these that are in a certain area, the more it can be used for learning and development of children who are comfortable thinking and absorbing information. It's really amazing, and I get a little bit of satisfaction knowing that there are at least two instances where a child was given one of these thanks to my own efforts, and I hope to make it happen again in the future as many times as possible. On the plus side, it also gave me (and a family member) a geeky little tool to play around with to satisfy my urge to tinker. I strongly urge anyone who can afford it to take part in the "give one get one" programs when they're out there, or if you really can afford it to donate so that more kids can benefit from the XO.

And now I feel like I've had a few big gulps of the kool-aid myself. :D