That Flow of Molten Metal

[pomeroo]

An interesting article available on debunking911.com:

http://11-settembre.blogspot.com/2007/02/ups-on-81st-floor-of-wtc2.html

[ref]

That was very interesting reading. Never thought of that possibility..

[scissorhands]

Interesting.
Such a ups setup wouldnt just provide molten streams of metal but large explosions too.

[Henry62]

Hi guys,
thanks for your kind words about my article and blog.
Ciao,
Enrico (Henry62)

[scissorhands]

The articles are excellent, the one concerning oxygen cutting at GZ is fascinating in itself.

[einsteen]

Does this mean that the official theorists now no longer deny the existence of molten metal ?

[Henry62]

Dear Einsteen,
"molten metal" could be light alloys or lead with other components (plastic and glass, for instance).

I don't think you really believe in molten steel theory...

Ciao,
Henry62

[Slayhamlet]

Does this mean that the official theorists now no longer deny the existence of molten metal ?

The existence of molten metal in the WTC was never denied by NIST or anybody else.

[Brainache]

Does this mean that the official theorists now no longer deny the existence of molten metal ?

I don't recall anyone denying that that stuff pouring from the window was molten metal.

I do recall people denying that it was molten steel and denying that it was proof of a thermite initiated demolition.

[The Doc]

Does this mean that the official theorists now no longer deny the existence of molten metal ?

Straw man fallacy.

The argument has always been molten metal != molten steel.

!= "Does not equal".

[leftysergeant]

Thank you much, Henry. This is a magnificent smack-down of the twoofers.

einsteen, a word of advice. Read what we post and try to stay entirely in the room.

This, of course, explains only what was seen at that one corner of the building. Might be worth asking whether other firms had a similar back-up.

I have seen batteries cook off in a car fire and I assure you, it is a bit more than a fire cracker..

There were other streams of molten whatever reported from other locations in the rubble, but no one has confirmed that they were steel. A lot of the could have been glass. There was a lot of molten glass that day, and glass can incandece at remarkably low temperature. Easy to mistake it for molten metal if you are frightened half to death already.

[einsteen]

It could be everything. No I don't believe that stuff in the pictures/movies is molten steel btw.

[Brainache]

It could be everything. No I don't believe that stuff in the pictures/movies is molten steel btw.

Well not quite everything. I doubt it was chocolate fudge.

[einsteen]

Unless it came from Willy Wonka's factory

[Travis]

Fist thing I thought of was this would be a prime suspect for some of those "explosions" that people heard throughout the morning prior to collapse.

[Wolrab]

Does this mean that the official theorists now no longer deny the existence of molten metal ?
I think he is referring to the molten metal that was supposedly buried for weeks.
If you don't specifically say that there is molten metal pouring from the building in this particular video, the twoofers will claim you are verifying their claim. Remember, the slightest misunderstanding is confirmation in the world of twoof.

[Totovader]

Hi guys,
thanks for your kind words about my article and blog.
Ciao,
Enrico (Henry62)

Very well done- nice job.

[Digest]

Hi guys,
thanks for your kind words about my article and blog.
Ciao,
Enrico (Henry62)

Very well written -

excellent job!!!

[pomeroo]

I think he is referring to the molten metal that was supposedly buried for weeks.
If you don't specifically say that there is molten metal pouring from the building in this particular video, the twoofers will claim you are verifying their claim. Remember, the slightest misunderstanding is confirmation in the world of twoof.


You are, of course, correct. But doesn't their eagerness to misrepresent suggest that they understand that they are lying?

[Wolrab]

"You are, of course, correct. But doesn't their eagerness to misrepresent suggest that they understand that they are lying?"
Without a doubt. I, for the life of me, can't comprehend how they can't understand that their position is untenable. They are worse than the moon hoaxers in that real people (not that everyone associated with the Apollo program isn't real) died that day.

They are either lying or are having a serious break from reality.

[pomeroo]

"You are, of course, correct. But doesn't their eagerness to misrepresent suggest that they understand that they are lying?"
Without a doubt. I, for the life of me, can't comprehend how they can't understand that their position is untenable. They are worse than the moon hoaxers in that real people (not that everyone associated with the Apollo program isn't real) died that day.


The big question is, do they understand that their position is untenable?

There are indications that the answer is yes. I posted links to Mark's paper on Willie Rodriguez on the Loose Change Forum. The reaction was wild indignation, one loon screaming that he knows slander when he sees it. Now, defining slander as quoting someone's own words is creative. But, the lesson I took from the furor was that they will avoid at all costs any exposure to criticisms of their cherished myths. Rationalists devour the statements and articles of twoofers, itching to tear them apart. The fantasy movement requires insulation from reality.

[BigAl]

Molten lead doesn't glow in ordinary case. What does it do as it gets hotter; Oxidize? go to vapor?

FWIW, I managed an IT operation with a similar, if smaller, UPS battery room in a Manhattan high-rise. Venting was priority #1. There was never an accumulation of H. To have a hydrogen explosion at WTC the venting would have failed earlier. I suppose that the initial impact could damage the venting and time could allow H to accumulate until something set off an explosion. IMO, that's a stretch as a significant energy input to the event.

OTOH, the amperage in the batteries could heat up lots of metal if it shorted out, but compared to the impact of a big jet, I'm not sure what increment it would contribute.

[Swing Dangler]

The existence of molten metal in the WTC was never denied by NIST or anybody else.

This is inaccurate. Here is John Gross denying the existence of molten steel.
John Gross (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7180303712325092501)

The last I time I checked, steel is a type of metal.

[Crungy]

This is inaccurate. Here is John Gross denying the existence of molten steel.
John Gross (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7180303712325092501)

The last I time I checked, steel is a type of metal.

Last time I checked, denying the existence of molten steel does not equate to denying the existence of other types of molten metal....

[Alferd_Packer]

Molten lead doesn't glow in ordinary case.

You should talk to a plumber.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40517000/jpg/_40517639_lead_203.jpg

[OldSchool]

First time I've actually seen the picture. Since obviously the surrounding area didn't give way the theory of molten aluminum does make the most sense. Its good to see sometime common sense does apply here. However, the article only distracts from the larger picture. Where did the molten steel in the basements come from, and was the molten steel in the basement a result of the explosions heard before the planes hit the towers. If the explosives used, in the basement, were designed to melt the steel beams, from the ground up, the collapse of the building would make a lot more sense. I have a great deal of difficulty with a building collapsing with its support structure still in tact.

Is there any such explosive which would have materials to melt steel rapidly?

[BigAl]

You should talk to a plumber.


Huh. I've actually done a few wiped lead joints with a pot of lead on a plumber's propane burner but it was 40 years ago and getting the lead hotter than necessary for the job was not a goal. I'd like to see a color/temp chart for lead similar to this one for aluminum.

http://www.westyorkssteel.com/images/htchar1.gif

To nit-pick, your picture may have been taken in the shade and the video we have of molten metal taken on 9/11 was taken in direct sunlight. The WTC video seems too bright compared to your picture.

Thanks

[Digest]

Enrico - Do you mind linking and pasting of your research with proper credit?

I am interested in using this info in some discussions I have been having

[Hellbound]

BigAl:

Don't forget that it's very unlikely we'd be looking at a pure metal, whether aluminum or lead. The addition of various other chemicals and elements into the mixture (such as glass and plastic) could well change the color/temp range.

[Panoply_Prefect]

This is inaccurate. Here is John Gross denying the existence of molten steel.
John Gross (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7180303712325092501)

The last I time I checked, steel is a type of metal.

Do you actually not see the error in your post?

[CurtC]

Where did the molten steel in the basements come from, and was the molten steel in the basement a result of the explosions heard before the planes hit the towers. If the explosives used, in the basement, were designed to melt the steel beams, from the ground up, the collapse of the building would make a lot more sense. I have a great deal of difficulty with a building collapsing with its support structure still in tact.

Is there any such explosive which would have materials to melt steel rapidly?
First, do you have any evidence at all that there was molten steel in the basements, or anywhere else?

Next, explosives don't work by melting metals. They blast them. Thermite melts steel, but it is never used in building demolitions. And thermite works quickly, since it doesn't need to get oxygen from the air. There's no way that a thermite reaction would be still hot more than a few hours after the event. If it was hot for a long period of time, that has to be due to a sustained fire, not thermite.

[NYCEMT86]

First time I've actually seen the picture. Since obviously the surrounding area didn't give way the theory of molten aluminum does make the most sense. Its good to see sometime common sense does apply here. However, the article only distracts from the larger picture. Where did the molten steel in the basements come from, and was the molten steel in the basement a result of the explosions heard before the planes hit the towers. If the explosives used, in the basement, were designed to melt the steel beams, from the ground up, the collapse of the building would make a lot more sense. I have a great deal of difficulty with a building collapsing with its support structure still in tact.

Is there any such explosive which would have materials to melt steel rapidly?


Can I have a source that says that the molten metal was tested and proved to be steel?

Also do you know what agency found the molten metal?


Are you referring to Thermite in your statement? I am not trying to build a strawman so thats why I ask. If you are, do you know what is produced after thermite is ignited?


I have a great deal of difficulty with a building collapsing with its support structure still in tact.

What happened to the core? Where did the collapse initiate? How would it be possible to bring a building down by blowing up the supports in the basement to initiate a collapse on the impact floors? Do you even know anything about collapses?

[BillyRayValentine]

This is inaccurate. Here is John Gross denying the existence of molten steel.
John Gross (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7180303712325092501)

The last I time I checked, steel is a type of metal.

This is parody, right?

(Please say yes...)

[T.A.M.]

Does this mean that the official theorists now no longer deny the existence of molten metal ?

OMG JHC Lord have mercy.

For the 10 MILLIONTH TIME, Noone is denying the presence of Molten METAL!!!!!!!!!!

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

This is inaccurate. Here is John Gross denying the existence of molten steel.
John Gross (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7180303712325092501)

The last I time I checked, steel is a type of metal.

Swing:

come on. You can do better. You know noone here is saying people did not see some type of metal in a molten state at GZ. The argument is was the metal STEEL or some other metal (aluminum, copper, etc...).

I know you know this, so why pussy foot around with it.

Henry62:
Welcome to the Forum.


TAM:)

[leftysergeant]

I suppose that the initial impact could damage the venting and time could allow H to accumulate until something set off an explosion. IMO, that's a stretch as a significant energy input to the event.


The shutdown of ventillation wouldl of course raise the possibility of hydrogen explosions. But the area was kind of ripped open and ventillated directly to the atmosphere. That does not rule out accumulations in pockets.

But consider that a car battery in a fire can explode and send pieces as much as fifty feet in any direction. I have, myself, been struck by pieces of an exploding battery in a fire. Shorting out can cause them to explode.

And the batteries in the UPS were probably a little stronger than the battery in a lot of vehicles. And there were a lot of them.

On another matter, this may also be a good explanation of where the sulphur in some of Jones' sample came from. There was an awful lot of sulphuric acid in the buildings. Sulphuric acid contributes to euteric melting and the deposition of copper onto steel. There were probably more than the single bank of batteries in so many businesses and agencies dependent on uninterupted computer operations and communications.

[Henry62]

Hi Leftysergeant,
You could find batteries in emergency lights, in phone plants, in medical equipments and in computer rooms, of course.
There was a great number of batteries inside TT.

Bye

[twinstead]

Sometimes I think most truthers think every single office in both buildings had only a throw rug, 2 umbrellas, a 1994 copy of "Southern Living", and a water cooler.

[Alt+F4]

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/images/spacer.gif

Built in 1970, the World Trade Center housed more than 430 companies from 28 countries. They were engaged in a wide variety of commercial activities, including banking and finance, insurance, transportation, import and export companies, customs brokerage, trade associations and representatives of foreign governments.

An estimated 50,000 people worked in the World Trade Center, and another 140,000 visited the complex daily.

Here's a link to a list of tenants that had office space in the twin towers and four other buildings in the complex:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/tenants1.html

[Alferd_Packer]

hmm, There doesn't seem to be a listing for United Parcel Service in building 2.

[simakperrce]

If the explosives used, in the basement, were designed to melt the steel beams, from the ground up, the collapse of the building would make a lot more sense.

So you are saying it would make a lot more sense that the buildings collapsed from the impact zones, as is clearly seen on the videos, if someone 'melted' steel beams in the basement?

[Retrograde]

hmm, There doesn't seem to be a listing for United Parcel Service in building 2.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who read UPS that way! Until the light dawned, I kept trying to imagine what sort of packing material might melt like that....

[Henry62]

Hi, I already controlled the official tenants list and I didn't find United Parcel Service in WTC2...

Ciao,
Henry62

[Steven Lupo Grossi]

I read the article linked by Pomeroo. The guy says it couldn't be molten steel, because steel has to be so hot to melt, and if the stuff was that hot, it would melt the steel in the wall there.

But, and correct me if I'm wrong, the color of glowing stuff tells us the temperature, regardless of what stuff it is. Right? The stuff looks almost white hot, whatever it is. Isn't that hot enough to melt steel, no matter what it is?

Just wondering.

You conspiracy wackos are still wacked.

[defaultdotxbe]

But, and correct me if I'm wrong, the color of glowing stuff tells us the temperature, regardless of what stuff it is. Right?
more or less, yes

The stuff looks almost white hot, whatever it is. Isn't that hot enough to melt steel, no matter what it is?
if it is indeed white hot, then yes, however there are other possibilities since we arent looking at the material itself, we are looking at a photograph of it, overexposure, contrast, white balance (or other digital camera settings) can make it look whiter than it actually is, also it could have been edited after being taken (nothing malicious, just adjustments to brightness, contrast, hue, etc that could effect the colors)

ultimately its very difficult to say for certain what color (and therefore what temp) the material is

[ref]

Shouldn't William Rodriguez know exactly what was stored on that floor? He was, after all, the janitor for many many years. It could be hard to get an answer, though. Maybe a query at Loose Change forums would deliver better results. But he is also a member here.

Willie?

[PhantomWolf]

The stuff looks almost white hot, whatever it is.

Remember you are seeing a video of the stuff, there is not telling what exact colour it was visually, cameras do not always show the real colours, contray to those that believethey could do chromotography on the video images.... *shudder*

[Dr Harry Rein]

If the explosives used, in the basement, were designed to melt the steel beams, from the ground up, the collapse of the building would make a lot more sense.

If explosives were used in the basement, why does the collapse clear start at the point where the planes impacted the buildings ?

[peteweaver]

First time I've actually seen the picture. Since obviously the surrounding area didn't give way the theory of molten aluminum does make the most sense. Its good to see sometime common sense does apply here. However, the article only distracts from the larger picture. Where did the molten steel in the basements come from, and was the molten steel in the basement a result of the explosions heard before the planes hit the towers. If the explosives used, in the basement, were designed to melt the steel beams, from the ground up, the collapse of the building would make a lot more sense. I have a great deal of difficulty with a building collapsing with its support structure still in tact.

Is there any such explosive which would have materials to melt steel rapidly?

Explosives don't melt steel, they blast through it far too quickly to actually melt it. Cut steel with a bomb, and seconds later what is left of the steel is still cold to the touch.

[Digest]

posted at LCF to further my rep as a NWO shill

Linky:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=14698