Born stupid

[becomingagodo]

I recently have been talking to a person about evolution, he says all the things about evolution having gaps and science has been proved wrong many times e.t.c. Now arguing with the people who believe in creationism has become annoying.

The annoying thing is that people are too stupid to realize that they are wrong.

Now how many times a person explaines evolution to a creationist they won't accept it. Mainly because of religion, however I am beginning to think creationist are stupid. I really can't be bothered to argue or even think about religion now, as it is like arguing with a child. How can you explain mulitplication to a person who doesn't even understand addition? You can't. How can you explain evolution to a brainwashed religious creationist? You can't.

Discussing religion seems to be a pointless debate.

[MichelQC]

The annoying thing is that people are too stupid to realize that they are wrong. ...................... Discussing religion seems to be a pointless debate.

I disagree with your assessment. Creationnists are not stupid. I am willing to bet that a good majority of them are logical and sensible persons in every other aspects of their lives. However, for the very religious when it comes to anything touching their faith, any contradictions you might offer will be automatically rejected. The very definition of faith implies believing without evidence so religion requires you to suspend independant thought if you want to hold on to your beliefs.

Obviously, you will not convert any faith heads with a single discussion on the facts of evolution, but who knows? You might have planted a seed that will take many years to grow. So I don't believe what you did was pointless. Just don't expect an instant epiphany!

[JoeEllison]

"Stupid"? Not exactly. Brainwashed, stunted, defective in their thinking? Sure... but only in this specific area. It isn't insanity, either... it is something closer to a phobia, where the one specific irrational feeling doesn't impinge on the person in any other area. Someone can have an unreasoned, irrational fear of clowns, for instance, but it doesn't mean that they are crazy or stupid.

Unless you're a mental health professional, I doubt that you'll be able to make much progress.

[Jimbo07]

I disagree with your assessment. Creationnists are not stupid. I am willing to bet that a good majority of them are logical and sensible persons in every other aspects of their lives. However, for the very religious when it comes to anything touching their faith, any contradictions you might offer will be automatically rejected.

It's worse than that. I think (at least) some of the leaders of Creationism (and others) can be quite clever and devious.

[juryjone]

Obviously, you will not convert any faith heads with a single discussion on the facts of evolution, but who knows? You might have planted a seed that will take many years to grow. So I don't believe what you did was pointless. Just don't expect an instant epiphany!

OK, I'll agree that a seed may have been planted. However, the opposite may be true, and the person may actually be more entrenched in their faith, confident in their ability to "defend their faith" against the application of rational thinking. How is it possible to continue a conversation, a dialogue, when the evidence suggests that nothing is accomplished? When the immediate results are the same?

I can certainly sympathize with becomingagodo's frustration, although I wouldn't call creationists stupid. Tradition-bound, intractable, stubborn, and willfully blind, perhaps, but not necessarily stupid.

[Oubliette]

However, for the very religious when it comes to anything touching their faith, any contradictions you might offer will be automatically rejected. The very definition of faith implies believing without evidence so religion requires you to suspend independant (sic)thought if you want to hold on to your beliefs.


Yep, yep. You can't win against that. That's one of the most clever things about it. It's automatic: you have to have faith in God for you to go to heaven> faith implies not to doubt> if you don't doubt you don't question> if you don't question you can't possibly let any argument take place, so it's pretty much going back to square one.

I used to do this too. There was no one who could convince me about evolution because I was already convinced that creationism was right, and God forbid anyone who dared say the opposite. :rolleyes:

[Mid]

Yep, yep. You can't win against that. That's one of the most clever things about it. It's automatic: you have to have faith in God for you to go to heaven> faith implies not to doubt> if you don't doubt you don't question> if you don't question you can't possibly let any argument take place, so it's pretty much going back to square one.

I used to do this too. There was no one who could convince me about evolution because I was already convinced that creationism was right, and God forbid anyone who dared say the opposite. :rolleyes:

Out of curiosity what changed your mind?

[Oubliette]

Out of curiosity what changed your mind?

Wow... it'll take me so long to answer that in detail! It was mainly the lack of coherence in the creationist belief, but it had to do with me not believing in God anymore, first of all, from then on everything else God-related was just lies to me.

[This Guy]

It's worse than that. I think (at least) some of the leaders of Creationism (and others) can be quite clever and devious.

No doubt!

For some great examples view some of the videos on this link (http://www.drdino.com/downloads.php).

You can say what ya want about Kent Hovind, but he's slick! He can lay it on thick and smooth!

He's obviously not stupid. Ignorant maybe, but not stupid.

And I have to wonder if he really believes all the BS he puts out, or if it's just a way he found to milk the sheep of their money.


ETA: Oh yea! Those are big files! anywhere from around 70, to 500 MBs or so, so use with care :)

[Mid]

Wow... it'll take me so long to answer that in detail! It was mainly the lack of coherence in the creationist belief, but it had to do with me not believing in God anymore, first of all, from then on everything else God-related was just lies to me.

Thanks, I always find these type of stories interesting maybe I should start a thread sometime asking people who've radically changed theirs views to explain how it happened.

[Oubliette]

Thanks, I always find these type of stories interesting maybe I should start a thread sometime asking people who've radically changed theirs views to explain how it happened.

I got a ton of experiences to tell! I'd be happy to collaborate. :)

[Fnord]

I've read both "Origin of Species (http://books.google.com/books?id=TCwLAAAAIAAJ&dq=&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fsourceid%3Dnavclient%26ie%3DUTF-8%26rls%3DGGLR,GGLR:2005-48,GGLR:en%26q%3Dcharles%2Bdarwin&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=2)" and "Holy Bible." While I will not proclaim that the Bible is in error with regards to creation and the appearance and diversity of life as we know it - especially in a company of fundies (they can get so nasty about it!) - I will claim that while evolution seems to be a valid theory, our dear Mr. Darwin may have gotten a few details wrong. But then, that's like claiming that while psychology is a valid science, Dr. Freud didn't get it right, either.

They were both pioneers in their respective fields.

Most fundies are not any more "stupid" than any other group. Most are either too lazy to investigate something outside their religious comfort zones, or they're too deeply indoctrinated (e.g., "Brainwashed") to believe in even the possibility that their religion might be in error.

Then again, I've met a fair share of Baptists that believe that Elvis Presley should be canonized as a saint by the Roman Catholic church, as well as a few Darwinists that would place bets on the outcome of a human/chimpanzee breeding experiment.

[quixotecoyote]

[quote=Fnord;2908915

Then again, I've met a fair share of Baptists that believe that Elvis Presley should be canonized as a saint by the Roman Catholic church, as well as a few Darwinists that would place bets on the outcome of a human/chimpanzee breeding experiment.[/quote]


I'd place a bet on that one.....

[seanmcg]

Discussing religion seems to be a pointless debate.

Agreed -- doubly so on the internet.

Honestly, I've never thought of religious folks as stupid -- rather, they just seem really different. At times, I'm actually rather envious -- people of faith seem to derive a great deal of comfort from their beliefs. Coupled with a strong, supportive community (the church), it's quite an appealing package. Almost as though it was designed to appeal to some sort of basic human need...hmmm...

That tangent aside: the thing that I find so irksome about religion is that you can never ask questions about it. At worst you offend someone. At best, the answers you get are not very satisfactory. "Why do you believe?" "I just do." Ugh...that gets me no closer to understanding why the large majority of folks are capable of faith, while I can not get my silly monkey brain to stop asking questions and dissecting dogma.

It's quite frustrating. But that's my basic problem -- it's not that people of faith are stupid, but rather that I do not understand them, almost to the point that we're speaking different languages.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I certainly agree with the cunning and devious assessment. The judge in the Dover case really scolded them for their dishonesty. That's the problem when you think THE TRUTH is revealed to you: you can justify any means necessary to further your ends.

Some of these folks have stated that if there's a conflict between Bibilical revelation and reason, that the Bible wins. So to them, even being wrong logically makes them right. (Small wonder they don't mind lying!)

I'd rephrase the OP to say that it's a lot like wrestling a pig. You just get all dirty, and eventually you realize the pig's enjoying it.

[Mid]

I got a ton of experiences to tell! I'd be happy to collaborate. :)


Will probably do although it may be in a couple of weeks, as I'm sort of away until then :)

[vIQleS]

Discussing religion seems to be a pointless debate.

I used to be a fundie and an YEC.

It was primarily due to reading Science of Diskworld and browsing the forums here that i gradually came to change my mind about both... Like Oubliette, i think it was a loss of belief in God first, and then a grudging acceptance of evil-ution...

So don't give up talking to people - just let them learn at their own pace.

[arthwollipot]

I disagree with your assessment. Creationnists are not stupid. I am willing to bet that a good majority of them are logical and sensible persons in every other aspects of their lives.

This has been my experience. I don't know about a majority, but certainly the ones who actually stick around for a discussion are bright enough. A fair few drive by yelling "nar ur goin to HELL", but by definition they are not the ones who are actually interested in debate.

As an example of some good ongoing debates, check the <A href="http://"http://www.religious-science.com/" target=_blank>Religious-Science forum, which I am enjoying at the moment.

As far as what other people have said about convincing evolution-deniers, I'll agree that they are remarkably stubborn. I've seen it happen once or twice though. There was a guy who came on to <A href="http://www.creationtalk.com/" target=_blank>CreationTalk one time with a head full of propaganda. We explained a few things, suggested he have a look at a few books, and he actually did! And in the end he conceded that most of his sources on evolution had been wrong and that he was seriously reconsidering its factuality.

Knocked me off my seat, I can tell you. But yeah, it does happen occasionally.

[Mid]

Will probably do although it may be in a couple of weeks, as I'm sort of away until then :)

Just to let everyone know I've start that thread the links:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2911090#post2911090

If anyone is interested

[Sinisterdan]

It would be a mistake to label IDers, fundies and creationists as stupid. I prefer to think of them as proceeding from a bad premise.

Most of them are perfectly decent people who just happen to hold certain truths that make me cough up bile.

Also, let's be fair, some of them are really, really good at 'arguing' their point.

[Flo]

I recently have been talking to a person about evolution, he says all the things about evolution having gaps and science has been proved wrong many times e.t.c. Now arguing with the people who believe in creationism has become annoying.

The annoying thing is that people are too stupid to realize that they are wrong.

Now how many times a person explaines evolution to a creationist they won't accept it. Mainly because of religion, however I am beginning to think creationist are stupid. I really can't be bothered to argue or even think about religion now, as it is like arguing with a child. How can you explain mulitplication to a person who doesn't even understand addition? You can't. How can you explain evolution to a brainwashed religious creationist? You can't.

Discussing religion seems to be a pointless debate.


Whenever discussing with religious literalists, fortunately not that many in Europe, I always start with asking on what basis they do select convenient passages in their holy book and discard others, and why I should agree with their selection rather than with another person's*. Next, should they bring creation versus evolution into the conversation, I grill them on what exactly they understand the theory of evolution to be.

I've discovered that they usually were extraordinarily ignorant of 1) their own religion, be it its scripture**, its history, etc, 2) what exactly evolutionists say as opposed to what they heard about evolution and its proponents.

* I had a female colleague who re-discovered religion following a nasty separation. She first had a daughter with a married man who left her, then lived for years with a man who had left his wife and kids to live with her and her daughter and left her for a younger woman, then she finally married a divorced man. After months of her pestering me with her religion, and how every single comma in the bible was the word of god, and how I was going to burn in hell, and how my being severely ill was a sign from god and should lead me to repent, she was left shocked at my insensitivity when I remarked that according to said bible, she deserved to be at least stoned a few times for leading such a sinful life ...

** I'm stupefied at the number of people who believe that either the catholic bible in Latin or the St-James in English are the original version ... not to mention the Mormons or the Jehovas who ignore that their particular denomination wouldn't exist hadn't catholicism been there first ...

[Beerina]

I certainly agree with the cunning and devious assessment. The judge in the Dover case really scolded them for their dishonesty. That's the problem when you think THE TRUTH is revealed to you: you can justify any means necessary to further your ends.

People believe their position is true; Therefore, the first rationalization that comes along that supports it is accepted with little critical analysis. Why bother? The position is true, so something must support it if you just look hard enough.

God created Earth, life, people. And therefore evolution must be false. That is the angle they approach thinking from.

"Oh, there's a gap? Well that makes sense, since evolution is false."

"Oh, there's a [dishonest, mathematically fraudulent] argument that evolution violates some laws of physics? Well that makes sense, since evolution is false."

[MichelQC]

Honestly, I've never thought of religious folks as stupid -- rather, they just seem really different. At times, I'm actually rather envious -- people of faith seem to derive a great deal of comfort from their beliefs. Coupled with a strong, supportive community (the church), it's quite an appealing package. Almost as though it was designed to appeal to some sort of basic human need...hmmm....

I think you just hit the nail on the head as to why so many people, even though they may not be religious literallist (is that an actual word?), consider themselves religious and faith to be so important. For someone who is used to this support and reinforcement it must be very difficult to let go off.

[Roboramma]

I really can't be bothered to argue or even think about religion now, as it is like arguing with a child.

Discussing religion seems to be a pointless debate.

I'd just like to point out that not all religious people are creationists.

[Abdul Alhazred]

It's more than a question of "Biblical literalism". Fundamentalists go for all sorts of figurative interpretations of some parts of the Bible.

And creationism is not merely "acknowledging a creator" that's just one public face of it.

It's preserving the Adam and Eve story against all reason, because (as Christian fundamentalists interpret the story) that's the "historical" basis for the doctrine of original sin + salvation.

[arthwollipot]

Remember also that there are many varieties of creationism. There is Young Earth Creationism, Old Earth Creationism, Day-age Creationism, Gap Creationism, Intelligent Design Creationism, Progressive Creationism...

See What Is Creationism (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wic.html) by Mark Isaak on TalkOrigins.

I can't seem to be able to edit my previous posts to fix the links. Sorry about that.