real world accounting

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

How about letting the many school accounting classes, which have to play with numbers anyway, get real world experience by "running the numbers" of their local school, and government budgets? This will help them learn how they both work, how much they cost, and where the money comes from. Can you think of anything wrong with having students use real numbers? Can you think of any advantages?

[NobbyNobbs]

Are you *still* trying to teach teachers how to teach?

*sigh*


Anyway, this is already done, at the whim of the teacher. My brother teaches math, and learned that they were repaving the highway in front of the school, about an 8-mile stretch. Using the concepts of estimation, the metric system, multiplication, measuring, and a few other random items, he had the students figure out how much it would cost to paint the lines on the road.

(This included internet research into the type of paint used, including that cool reflective stuff)

Then he called up the township, got the real numbers, and had them do a comparison.

When I taught at an inner city school, I had the kids do an environmental project. They interviewed the school board and janitors to find out the last time the air vents and water pipes had been cleaned. They wrote letters to the EPA and other agencies to get sent free test kits. They tested for airborne particulates, asbestos, lead, etc. Then they wrote up the results and presented them to the school board.

Two months later, the air ducts got their first cleaning in 12 years.

This sort of learning is already out there, and is limited only by the creativity of the teacher.

[drkitten]

How about letting the many school accounting classes, which have to play with numbers anyway, get real world experience by "running the numbers" of their local school, and government budgets? This will help them learn how they both work, how much they cost, and where the money comes from. Can you think of anything wrong with having students use real numbers?

Only that some of the concepts may be too advanced for the class, depending upon the complexity of the number-set you pick.

Nobby's example of costing the line-painting is a good example. It's a good project for lower-skill students to figure out how much area gets painted (and how much paint that
takes, and therefore how much it costs). It would probably not be a good project to have the students cost the entire roadworks or to try to research to figure out what kind of paint should be used (traffic engineers spend their lives trying to do that).

Another disadvantage, of course, is that the real numbers may not have the properties you're looking for. If you're trying to teach about depreciation or Sarbanes-Oxley, costing out the road paint won't help, since those concepts aren't really relevant to that project.

Just because data is out there doesn't mean it must be used, you know.

The advantages of real-world datasets, of course, are substantial -- the biggest one probably being in student motivation if they can see they're working on some project that's related to the real world. But you need to choose your datasets with some care and usually need to clean them up substantially before they're ready for the classroom. They're not usually just sitting there like fully-ripened fruit, just waiting to be picked.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Are you *still* trying to teach teachers how to teach?

*sigh*
I'm only trying help, it almost sounds as if my help is not wanted, if that is the case its unfortunate, that is the very thing that drives me to help more.

Anyway, this is already done, at the whim of the teacher. My brother teaches math, and learned that they were repaving the highway in front of the school, about an 8-mile stretch. Using the concepts of estimation, the metric system, multiplication, measuring, and a few other random items, he had the students figure out how much it would cost to paint the lines on the road.

(This included internet research into the type of paint used, including that cool reflective stuff)

Then he called up the township, got the real numbers, and had them do a comparison.

When I taught at an inner city school, I had the kids do an environmental project. They interviewed the school board and janitors to find out the last time the air vents and water pipes had been cleaned. They wrote letters to the EPA and other agencies to get sent free test kits. They tested for airborne particulates, asbestos, lead, etc. Then they wrote up the results and presented them to the school board.

Two months later, the air ducts got their first cleaning in 12 years.

This sort of learning is already out there, and is limited only by the creativity of the teacher.
I knew it had to be done somewhere, I am saying that it should be done everywhere, and often, it could help keep things on track. More importantly, it would show them how to keep things on track. As your example shows, it works. Adults don't always want children to know what they are doing-or not doing-but their direct questions are hard to get around.
"Miss Maple, why does the school pay for your limo service while you are making $60,000 a year? At $200 dollars apiece, the money for that service would pay for "X" amount of computers. You do want us to have them, don't you?"

[drkitten]

I'm only trying help, it almost sounds as if my help is not wanted,

You're right. Your help is not wanted. The schools are already in enough difficulty without your creating more.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, your "help" will in fact make matters substantially worse. I have a professional obligation to the children not to let you help.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Only that some of the concepts may be too advanced for the class, depending upon the complexity of the number-set you pick.
Of course.

Nobby's example of costing the line-painting is a good example. It's a good project for lower-skill students to figure out how much area gets painted (and how much paint that
takes, and therefore how much it costs). It would probably not be a good project to have the students cost the entire roadworks or to try to research to figure out what kind of paint should be used (traffic engineers spend their lives trying to do that).
With the teacher's (or other) help.

Another disadvantage, of course, is that the real numbers may not have the properties you're looking for. If you're trying to teach about depreciation or Sarbanes-Oxley, costing out the road paint won't help, since those concepts aren't really relevant to that project.
The numbers I am talking about has most to do with the school budget, the costs of programs, how much money is available, where the most money is spent, etc. The aim would be to find enough money to be able to afford computers. I think the waste alone will pay for them.

Just because data is out there doesn't mean it must be used, you know.
I know.

The advantages of real-world datasets, of course, are substantial -- the biggest one probably being in student motivation if they can see they're working on some project that's related to the real world. But you need to choose your datasets with some care and usually need to clean them up substantially before they're ready for the classroom. They're not usually just sitting there like fully-ripened fruit, just waiting to be picked.Fine. Pick it, wash it, send it in. The idea is to inform children what is happening. Even if nothing happens, children will grow up knowing. Perhaps one day they may in a position to change it.

[drkitten]

The numbers I am talking about has most to do with the school budget, the costs of programs, how much money is available, where the most money is spent, etc. The aim would be to find enough money to be able to afford computers. I think the waste alone will pay for them.

You're right. That is what you think. Once again, your unsupported thought leads immediately to a call for action, without any checking to see whether or not it's correct.

Now, of course, I have problems envisioning how all this waste is sitting there in plain sight for any group of fifth graders to find.... but on the other hand, all of the opposition candidates for school board, and the anti-public school advocates, and the professional small-government advocates with their legions of professional accountants have somehow managed to miss it. I guess in your world, pointing out fraud and waste is a good way for a candidate to lose an election -- or perhaps the Black Helicopters will simply take away any accountants who audit the same publically available dataset.

Just a word of advice. You would have substantially more credibility if you let your facts determine your ideology instead the other way around. Well, by "substantially more," I really mean "any."

[Mashuna]

I think this is a great idea. I'm currently auditing the final accounts of a local government authority. I could save myself a lot of time by just popping down to the local school and handing the files over. They can at least work out the best areas for efficiency gains.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

You're right. Your help is not wanted. The schools are already in enough difficulty without your creating more.

As I've pointed out repeatedly, your "help" will in fact make matters substantially worse. I have a professional obligation to the children not to let you help.
I love it. You can thank those ever increasing packets of homework for my attention. One day my niece told me that I got a "B" for mostly doing her homework, because she had run out of time. For a second I felt proud... then "otherwise"... "very otherwise". At her, (I gave her more homework) and then the school. I think technology can help, and I am going to push for more of it. Stand in my way if you want, you would actually help me.

[drkitten]

I love it. You can thank those ever increasing packets of homework for my attention. One day my niece told me that I got a "B" for mostly doing her homework, because she had run out of time. For a second I felt proud... then "otherwise"... "very otherwise". At her, (I gave her more homework) and then the school. I think technology can help, and I am going to push for more of it. Stand in my way if you want, you would actually help me.

So,... what you're telling me is that you cheated, and it's the school's fault?

That makes more sense than anything else you've written in this subforum, I guess....

[JoeTheJuggler]

When I was in 7th grade (in 1975), we did a class project called "Gompers". This was a pre-packaged thing because there were ready-made workbooks and such, IIRC. Gompers was a fictional small municipality, and we set it up: decided what kind of local government it would have, elected and appointed everyone, debated and passed a budget, and so on. I'm sure it wasn't very realistic, but it was accessible to kids our age.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

You're right. That is what you think. Once again, your unsupported thought leads immediately to a call for action, without any checking to see whether or not it's correct.
So, you think there is no waste?

Now, of course, I have problems envisioning how all this waste is sitting there in plain sight for any group of fifth graders to find....
I love the way some of you always mention for the lower grades. I don't think I got accounting till the 10th. Anyway, I am talking about 11th and 12th.

but on the other hand, all of the opposition candidates for school board, and the anti-public school advocates, and the professional small-government advocates with their legions of professional accountants have somehow managed to miss it.
Some of those accountants see nothing wrong with Miss Maple's limo service, but students might.

Just a word of advice. You would have substantially more credibility if you let your facts determine your ideology instead the other way around. Well, by "substantially more," I really mean "any."
It more fun the way I am doing it, especially now that you don't like it. I will point, then seek to find. That is, if it is alright with you? Oh wait, why would you matter?

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

So,... what you're telling me is that you cheated, and it's the school's fault?
I think you would find that many parents give their children the answer sometimes, especially when they are pressed for time.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

When I was in 7th grade (in 1975), we did a class project called "Gompers". This was a pre-packaged thing because there were ready-made workbooks and such, IIRC. Gompers was a fictional small municipality, and we set it up: decided what kind of local government it would have, elected and appointed everyone, debated and passed a budget, and so on. I'm sure it wasn't very realistic, but it was accessible to kids our age.
I think it was a good first step. That primed you for moving on to the real numbers of government, that is, if the school aimmed to.

[Piscivore]

So, you think there is no waste?
There may be. Why do you assume that it exists, and is egregious?
Some of those accountants see nothing wrong with Miss Maple's limo service, but students might.
Show me a real world example of a teacher going to their job in a limo service.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

There may be. Why do you assume that it exists, and is egregious?
If it works in places, and not in others, there has to be some. I just have that feeling, but I hope this is more to your liking:

http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=665

If you want more, I now know I can find them.

Show me a real world example of a teacher going to their job in a limo service.
That was just a fictional example. I don't know any Miss Maple. And I never said that Miss Maple was a teacher. The example is based on a case where someone at a medical school moved out of state, and the school used a limo service to get here from PA. That is, until someone found out. They stopped when it became known.

[Piscivore]

If it works in places, and not in others, there has to be some.
What is "it"- if what works in some places?

I just have that feeling,
So Dr. K is correct. Thanks.

but I hope this is more to your liking:

http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=665
I just skimmed through it, but it seemed to be heavy on assertion and light on data.

If you want more, I now know I can find them.
Please do. It would be interesting to see you try to back up an assertion with fact.

That was just a fictional example.
Indeed, and the problem with fictional examples is... anyone? Anyone?

I don't know any Miss Maple. And I never said that Miss Maple was a teacher.
Not explicitly, granted- but you strongly implied that in your fictional example, "Miss Maple" was the teacher of the students studying real world scenarios and discovering the egregious waste- in your example, a school funded limo service- you "know" is there based on your feelings.

The example is based on a case where someone at a medical school moved out of state, and the school used a limo service to get here from PA. That is, until someone found out. They stopped when it became known.
Do you have a cite for this, or is it another "fictional example"?

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

What is "it"- if what works in some places?
Think now... what was the subject?

So Dr. K is correct. Thanks.
Glad I could help.

I just skimmed through it, but it seemed to be heavy on assertion and light on data.
Fine.

Please do. It would be interesting to see you try to back up an assertion with fact.
You would just say the same thing with any link I provide... I ain't got the time to play spin the bottle with you.


Not explicitly, granted- but you strongly implied that in your fictional example, "Miss Maple" was the teacher of the students studying real world scenarios and discovering the egregious waste- in your example, a school funded limo service- you "know" is there based on your feelings.
That is what you strongly wanted to believe. The student could have met the principal in the hall, after the class.

Do you have a cite for this, or is it another "fictional example"?I am going to look for it... but for you, I am going to take my time.

[madurobob]

How about letting the many school accounting classes, which have to play with numbers anyway, get real world experience by "running the numbers" of their local school, and government budgets? This will help them learn how they both work, how much they cost, and where the money comes from. Can you think of anything wrong with having students use real numbers? Can you think of any advantages?
Bad idea. Government accounting ("fund accounting") is generally not taught until college. Standard "real world" accounting you speak of is bookkeping and (very) light auditing and would not fit at all with how governments - schools included - manage money. The time and expense required to educate the kids just to be able to perform this task would far outweigh the benefit.

(For what its worth, I am a CPA, CMA, MBA)

[Piscivore]

Think now... what was the subject?
Ah, okay. I found your sentence difficult to parse, but now I get it. You are saying "if someone finds waste there must be some." This fails to explain why, before anyone looks, you are assuming the waste exists and it is scandalously bad.

You would just say the same thing with any link I provide...
Not one with hard data instead of opinion, no.

I ain't got the time to play spin the bottle with you.
How about "Seven Minutes in Heaven", then?

That is what you strongly wanted to believe. The student could have met the principal in the hall, after the class.
It seemed the most likely scenario was a group of students in class. That's how I read it. I have no particular reason to "want" to believe anything- my position that your hypothetical is pure fantasy is unchanged no matter what role your Miss Maple might possibly be filling. If you want her to be the prinicpal, fine- replace "teacher" in my post with "principal". Or "janitor", "lunch lady", or any other that suits you. Don't quibble over semantics. Show me any real world instance of any school official or employee recieving or clearly benefiting from obvious fraud or extravagance similar to that which you postulated.

I am going to look for it... but for you, I am going to take my time.
Try on the shelf next to "Alice in Wonderland".

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Ah, okay. I found your sentence difficult to parse, but now I get it. You are saying "if someone finds waste there must be some." This fails to explain why, before anyone looks, you are assuming the waste exists and it is scandalously bad.
Are you kidding? There has to be waste, this country is rich. If the method works (in places) and the technology is available, what am I to assume, that the teachers are no good? I assume it has to be in how they spend the money, and/or on what.

How about "Seven Minutes in Heaven", then?
It happened. About a year or two ago. NJIT provided someone who had moved to PA, a limo service.

It seemed the most likely scenario was a group of students in class. That's how I read it.
So. You have to know that that is not the only scenario no matter how much you "reason" it to be.

I have no particular reason to "want" to believe anything- my position that your hypothetical is pure fantasy is unchanged no matter what role your Miss Maple might possibly be filling. If you want her to be the prinicpal, fine- replace "teacher" in my post with "principal". Or "janitor", "lunch lady", or any other that suits you. Don't quibble over semantics.
I can if you try and make an obvious light hearted example real.

Show me any real world instance of any school official or employee recieving or clearly benefiting from obvious fraud or extravagance similar to that which you postulated.
Again, you must be kidding. You know that special privilege is out of control. People in high position often "decorate" their surroundings with their status. Just because it is often legal, does not make it any less waste. Perhaps finding waste will be the next thread. Thanks.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Bad idea. Government accounting ("fund accounting") is generally not taught until college. Standard "real world" accounting you speak of is bookkeping and (very) light auditing and would not fit at all with how governments - schools included - manage money. The time and expense required to educate the kids just to be able to perform this task would far outweigh the benefit.

(For what its worth, I am a CPA, CMA, MBA)
I can't understand that, but i'm not saying accounting is not complex. At first glance it seems to require only basic math, and keeping track of the numbers. Anyway, I hated it, and would not wish it on anyone. I think the impact of students knowing certain numbers though, could help some adults remember their obligation to do right by them. And even if nothing is done about the situation in question, Children would grow up knowing.

[drkitten]

At first glance it seems to require only basic math, and keeping track of the numbers.

Well, naturally, we should rely on your surface impressions and not on the experiences of someone who has been working in the industry for years.

That seems to be a consistent ability of yours, LOL. You're so intuitive; you can leap right into total mastery of a subject, whether you know anything about it or not. Why, I'll bet the local hospital just loves it when you tell them what mixture of anaesthetic to use in surgery, and the police love it when you solve crimes for them from your armchair without even looking at the evidence.

I think I also figured out Bush's source for the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. He just asked you, and at first glance it seemed that they had them, right?

[TriangleMan]

Bad idea. Government accounting ("fund accounting") is generally not taught until college. Standard "real world" accounting you speak of is bookkeping and (very) light auditing and would not fit at all with how governments - schools included - manage money. The time and expense required to educate the kids just to be able to perform this task would far outweigh the benefit.
Seconded. (and I'm an accountant as well)

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

I can't understand that, but i'm not saying accounting is not complex. At first glance it seems to require only basic math, and keeping track of the numbers. Anyway, I hated it, and would not wish it on anyone. I think the impact of students knowing certain numbers though, could help some adults remember their obligation to do right by them. And even if nothing is done about the situation in question, Children would grow up knowing.

[quote=drkitten;2926180]Well, naturally, we should rely on your surface impressions and not on the experiences of someone who has been working in the industry for years.
Does that paragraph sound like I think I am a master of anything? But if you only used the underlined part, it does. Do you see how you created the impression you wanted? I am not mad at you though. But do you see how some professionals can close their mind?

That seems to be a consistent ability of yours, LOL. You're so intuitive; you can leap right into total mastery of a subject, whether you know anything about it or not. Why, I'll bet the local hospital just loves it when you tell them what mixture of anaesthetic to use in surgery, and the police love it when you solve crimes for them from your armchair without even looking at the evidence.

I think I also figured out Bush's source for the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. He just asked you, and at first glance it seemed that they had them, right?
And see how far you ran with it? It doesn't look good, but if that's what you want to do.

[Piscivore]

Are you kidding? There has to be waste, this country is rich.
It would seem to me that a country or economy that suffers a great deal of waste could not be "rich", do you have any evidence for this assumption?

If the method works (in places) and the technology is available, what am I to assume, that the teachers are no good? I assume it has to be in how they spend the money, and/or on what.
You are assuming that there is a hemorrhage of money from our school systems without evidence. Trying to come up with any hypothesis for a cause of problem you do not have any evidence for besides you feelings or assumption is navel-gazing.

It happened. About a year or two ago. NJIT provided someone who had moved to PA, a limo service.
Do you have a cite for the incident, or should we just take your word for it?

Even if this were true, do you have any evidence this proves a larger, endemic problem and isn't just an isolated lapse in judgment?

So. You have to know that that is not the only scenario no matter how much you "reason" it to be.
You outlined the scenario, I fail to see how changing the specific role of the person referenced alters it at all.

I can if you try and make an obvious light hearted example real.
I was not obviously lighthearted to me, not when you seem to be offering it as an example of the "obvious" fiscal mismanagement you say permeates the country's school systems.

Again, you must be kidding. You know that special privilege is out of control.
No, I don't know that. One or two abuses of authority do not a epidemic make. Show me the teachers living in houses fit for "Cribs", the school administrators dripping with bling. All the ones I know are underpaid and overworked.

People in high position often "decorate" their surroundings with their status.
Who are these "people in high position" in the school system, in your opinion?

Just because it is often legal, does not make it any less waste.
So if a teacher has a car or a home nicer than you think they ought to have their salary is "obviously" too high?

[NobbyNobbs]

It happened. About a year or two ago. NJIT provided someone who had moved to PA, a limo service.



You know, the problem here may just be a matter of semantics. "Limo service" does not equate to "Limousine".

Many airports offer limo service, to get you to your hotel. What shows up to transport you is, more often than not, a van, with at least 6 other people sharing it. If this is the case, and the school district were helping to subsidize a van pool to get quality employees to work, I really wouldn't have much of a problem with it.

Of course, without providing us with a cite, it's hard to tell.

[blutoski]

How about letting the many school accounting classes, which have to play with numbers anyway, get real world experience by "running the numbers" of their local school, and government budgets? This will help them learn how they both work, how much they cost, and where the money comes from. Can you think of anything wrong with having students use real numbers? Can you think of any advantages?

They do use real numbers. The idea, however, is to let them practice things they are likely to be doing in real life, so their time is not wasted in fantasyland.

Managing a school district is a fulltime job for a team of staff. Amortization, &c. Government is in the unconventional position of planning for timeframes that span generations, including concerns about capital depreciation, demographic forecasting, &c. Are these kids in the calculus class, now? Students will be overwhelmed with things that they probably won't use for the forseeable future. If they want to get involved in government budgeting, there are courses for that that require prerequisites that they can complete.

In any case, this informaiton is publicly available, so there's nothing stopping them from viewing it, if they're interested.

In any case, it's more than dollars: the purpose of a school district is to achieve outcomes, which is a political decision made by the school boards, not a financial decision made by accountants.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

It would seem to me that a country or economy that suffers a great deal of waste could not be "rich", do you have any evidence for this assumption?
Are you saying the U.S. is not rich? Or are you saying that because of the waste, it is not rich? In any case, I am saying that it has I lot of waste, because it is that rich.


You are assuming that there is a hemorrhage of money from our school systems without evidence. Trying to come up with any hypothesis for a cause of problem you do not have any evidence for besides you feelings or assumption is navel-gazing.
No it isn't, it's rock throwing.

Do you have a cite for the incident, or should we just take your word for it?
You could take my word. Outright lying is damning, I have seen what has happenned in other threads. Lying to defend a point is a personal sign of trouble, and dumb, since what they type is being recorded on an international forum.

Even if this were true, do you have any evidence this proves a larger, endemic problem and isn't just an isolated lapse in judgment?
People steal, it has always been a problem.


No, I don't know that. One or two abuses of authority do not a epidemic make. Show me the teachers living in houses fit for "Cribs", the school administrators dripping with bling. All the ones I know are underpaid and overworked.
Waste is not always that visible. And I am not against teachers.

Who are these "people in high position" in the school system, in your opinion?
I have been trying to find a website that I seen on a bus, but have been unable to, I think it is teacher union abuse.com but it is not working. Anyway, I can save that for another thread.

[blutoski]

Are you kidding? There has to be waste, this country is rich. If the method works (in places) and the technology is available, what am I to assume, that the teachers are no good? I assume it has to be in how they spend the money, and/or on what.

You're getting close to the heart of the question. There are lots of factors, but probably the biggest predictor of a kid's educational success is his parents' support, followed by his peers' support.

Basically, there are better and worse districts, because there are better and worse neighbourhoods.

We all have examples of this: the Asian kid who moved here when he was nine, didn't speak a word of English, and five years later, he's the best student in his grade. The difference is in the kid's approach to learning: he's not rationalizing underperformance by saying the class should revolve around an interest in comic books.

Americans do quite poorly in comparison to many other countries in academic performance. There is no doubt that this is because of their cultural distinction. Their competitors are often outperforming on a significantly smaller per-student budget, sharing books, no access to computers or technology... The difference is that the kids are simply more motivated.

And there are some other things to learn at school, too: that the employment world is not going to capitulate to the employee's interests, that postponement of gratification can be a good investment in oneself, that there is value in deferring to an expert, how to work in social groups...

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

They do use real numbers. The idea, however, is to let them practice things they are likely to be doing in real life, so their time is not wasted in fantasyland.
They do the budget of fictional enitities anyway, why not real budgets?

Managing a school district is a fulltime job for a team of staff. Amortization, &c. Government is in the unconventional position of planning for timeframes that span generations, including concerns about capital depreciation, demographic forecasting, &c. Are these kids in the calculus class, now? Students will be overwhelmed with things that they probably won't use for the forseeable future.
How their government is run is in their future. And they gave me a square dancing class that I didn't ask for. Never found any use for it either.


In any case, this informaiton is publicly available, so there's nothing stopping them from viewing it, if they're interested.
Lets interest them. They don't aways know what they want.

In any case, it's more than dollars: the purpose of a school district is to achieve outcomes,

Some have plenty of dollars, and the outcome is less than desired. SAT scores in N.J. have fallen.

is a political decision made by the school boards, not a financial decision made by accountants.
accountants keep track.

[Loss Leader]

Um ...

I took accounting in my Public Administration graduate program and we used both real and fake numbers.

I can think of one reason to use fake data sets, though: The teacher can highlight specific problems and methods in accounting. By making everything very easy except the one concept or problem being learned, it allows students to concentrate on just that one item at a time.

Using only real data sets would not expose students to all the problems of accounting because any one corporation or municipality might not be experiencing every accounting problem simultaniously.

At the smae time, using only real data sets would force students to deal with many, many accounting problems all at once without having gained enough practice with each type of problem first. It would be like asking a person learning to fly to take off, fly and land all by himself on his first lesson. It would be like trying to teach addition by handing out calculus problems.

Real world data sets would only be useful, in my opinion, as final projects to demonstrate that the student has synthesised all the knowledge. And even then, there's no particular reason to force them to use real world problems.

[blutoski]

They do the budget of fictional enitities anyway, why not real budgets?

As pointed out, real budgets are exactly how the classes are run.



How their government is run is in their future.

Yes, but political awareness is not taught in an accounting class. The identification of 'waste' is a value judgement.




And they gave me a square dancing class that I didn't ask for. Never found any use for it either.

Square dancing is part of making students 'well rounded,' and taking all students into account. Not everybody has a mummy and daddy who will teach them to dance.




Lets interest them. They don't aways know what they want.

Which brings us back to square dancing, right?

Anyway: why *this* budget? Why not have them make an educated purchase based on price/performance comparison? Prioritizing a grocery list? Run through a typical household budget, or how to start a small business? Why something so disconnected from their lives?



Some have plenty of dollars, and the outcome is less than desired. SAT scores in N.J. have fallen.

Yeeesss, which was my point... outcomes are not all that sensitive to budgets, so analysis is not very fruitful. Parental engagement and student motivation for learning are the biggest guarantees of student success.




accountants keep track.

Yes, but your thesis is that we should determine which items are 'waste'. This is not something an accountant does.

What your'e asking is for accounting class to turn into a social studies or civics class. There is a class called 'civics,' which is about how the current students can enage in public participation when they reach the age of majority. In many school districts, it's a mandatory course.

In BC, the mandate of the Ministry of Education is this: "To prepare the next generation of citizens."

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Um ...

I took accounting in my Public Administration graduate program and we used both real and fake numbers.
Fine.

I can think of one reason to use fake data sets, though: The teacher can highlight specific problems and methods in accounting.
By making everything very easy except the one concept or problem being learned, it allows students to concentrate on just that one item at a time.
Fine, that comes in handy.


Using only real data sets would not expose students to all the problems of accounting because any one corporation or municipality might not be experiencing every accounting problem simultaniously.
No one said only, and no one said overwhelm them. I was talking about the impact of them "knowing" about some budgets.


At the smae time, using only real data sets would force students to deal with many, many accounting problems all at once without having gained enough practice with each type of problem first.
It would be like asking a person learning to fly to take off, fly and land all by himself on his first lesson. It would be like trying to teach addition by handing out calculus problems.
If it is presented that way. Don't do it like that.

Real world data sets would only be useful, in my opinion, as final projects to demonstrate that the student has synthesised all the knowledge. And even then, there's no particular reason to force them to use real world problems.
Don't force them, make it worth their while. And final projects are just fine with me. The impact that I would hope to add to the experience is "you payed what... why"? Later, as a final project before sending them out into the the world, require that they be registered, and cast a vote.

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

As pointed out, real budgets are exactly how the classes are run.
Sometimes.

Yes, but political awareness is not taught in an accounting class.
The number part of it could be.
The identification of 'waste' is a value judgement.
Be bold enough to judge, you might be right. If you aren't, you learned something. Say you sorry.

Square dancing is part of making students 'well rounded,' and taking all students into account. Not everybody has a mummy and daddy who will teach them to dance.
Square dancing? I understand that you have to take the whole package, but package it for the city. That is, if the target lives in the city. I think "breakdancing" would have been the class, if dancing was the concern.

Anyway: why *this* budget? Why not have them make an educated purchase based on price/performance comparison?
That too.

Prioritizing a grocery list? Run through a typical household budget, or how to start a small business? Why something so disconnected from their lives?
Those are all fine... only, why not use their numbers to "fry" someone who needs it?

Yeeesss, which was my point... outcomes are not all that sensitive to budgets, so analysis is not very fruitful. Parental engagement and student motivation for learning are the biggest guarantees of student success.
They are, but we know that they are lacking in places-for a number of reasons. The OLPC program can help where it is.

Yes, but your thesis is that we should determine which items are 'waste'. This is not something an accountant does.
No, who else would understand the numbers?

What your'e asking is for accounting class to turn into a social studies or civics class. There is a class called 'civics,' which is about how the current students can enage in public participation when they reach the age of majority. In many school districts, it's a mandatory course.
No, just run the numbers of social conditions.

In BC, the mandate of the Ministry of Education is this: "To prepare the next generation of citizens."
It needs help, in a lot of areas.