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six7s
28th August 2007, 10:21 PM
In 1981, the New Zealand Rugby Football Union invited the South African Springboks to tour the country and play against 12 provincial teams, the NZ Maori team and, of course, the All Blacks - NZ's iconic first XV

The spectacle of watching fierce rivals battle on the pitch was eagerly anticipated by rugby fans around the world. However, for many - including ardent rugby fans - the enduring memory of 'The Tour' concerns what happened in most unsporting circumstances; in the homes, workplaces and streets of a relatively peaceful and isolated country and the impact of is widely regarded as being one the most significant turning points in post-colonial NZ history

I look back on 'The Tour' as a coming of age, in the political sense for the country as a whole (six years later, the Labour government of David Lange told Uncle Sam where he could stick his nuclear ships) and, on a more immediate level, for 1000s and 1000s of 'ordinary, red-blooded Kiwis', like me, who hung up our boots and donned helmets and cricket boxes - not to beat the 'Boks on an oval, but to protect ourselves from the mental and physical abuse of our neighbours and our police force to demonstrate that bully-boy tactics cannot and will not be tolerated

There is an adage that 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger'. Added to this is the notion that 'time heals all wounds'

NZ Rugby suffered a dramatic decline in support, but somehow managed to bounce back enough for the ABs to win the inaugural Rugby World Cup in 1987 and later this year, they are tipped to beat the strongest opposition: either the Aussies of the 'Boks who, since the apartheid regime was finally dismantled, have been welcomed by one and all (including me) as worthy opponents in a game worth millions and millions in any currency

No-one died as a result of 'The Tour'

Instead, the heated exchanges fuelled a growing awareness that we were hypocritical in focusing solely on South Africa as it slowly dawned on many that we in 'Godzone' were not only institutionally racist but also sexist and all the similar 'ists' to boot

My memories of this time inspired me, an ex-christian turned atheist/humanist, to post to the words "He who has not sinned may cast the first stone", followed by a SPOILER tag to show - to those interested - my opinions. My saying that there "was almost a civil war over" was simply a rhetorical device to presage my thoughts on hypocrisy, which are perhaps not particularly relevant in a debate over the premise that The JREF is not an atheist organization

However, the JREF is not an apologists organisation and the notion that the JREF is a sceptical organisation is only debated by those hung up on spelling, so it came as rather a disappointment that someone who professes to be both a sceptic and a New Zealander should not only accuse me of spouting "garbage" but also suggest that the events of 'The Tour' have been exaggerated out of proportion; seemingly a 'fact' worthy of drawing to the attention of all those who might read that thread

Just in case non-Kiwis get the wrong idea, I'd ask people to please not buy into this "almost civil war" garbage - it was nothing like a civil war, unless there have been civil wars where one side runs homebefore the rugby game has finished and the potential opponents come out to play. I've seen lots of people attempt to oversell a few bottle-throwers as "almost civil war" and it's nothing less than historical revisionism.

The Queen St riot was closer to a civil war than any rugby protest.

Does it make it all seem more important somehow to oversell it that way?


As a sceptic, I simply have to wonder... was it only a nightmare?

Or is there some hidden agenda to promote an apologist dream

So... like all aspiring sceptics, I have sought and found documented evidence that suggests history might be messy, but it can't simply be rubbished

I hope that the following links and quotes might be of interest to those who care about history recording things as they were, not as the pretenders would like things to be


Review of the Police Complaints Authority: Chapter3, Background (http://www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/reports/2001/police_complaints/chapter_3.html)
3.4.5 In New Zealand demonstrations against the Springbok Tour in 1981 brought the changes in society and societal attitudes into sharp focus. Opposition to the Vietnam War had come largely from students and more radical elements in society. The opposition to the Springbok Tour and to Apartheid generally was much more broadly-based.



New Zealand History Online
(http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/)
1981 Springbok Tour

It was simply called 'The Tour'. For 56 taut days in the winter of 1981, New Zealanders were divided against each other in the largest civil disturbance seen since the 1951 waterfront dispute. More...

A country divided (http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/culture/1981-springbok-tour)
For 56 days in July, August and September 1981, New Zealanders were divided against each other in the largest civil disturbance seen since the 1951 waterfront dispute. More than 150,000 people took part in over 200 demonstrations in 28 centres, and 1500 were charged with offences stemming from these protests

<snip/>

In many ways the playing of rugby took a back seat in 1981, and the sport suffered in the following years as players and supporters came to terms with the fallout from the tour.

Some commentators have described this event as the moment when New Zealand lost its innocence as a country and as being a watershed in our view of ourselves as a country and people.

Tour diary - 1981 Springbok tour (http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/culture/1981-springbok-tour/tour-diary)
'A war played out twice a week'

The Springboks were officially welcomed to New Zealand on the Poho-o-Rawiri marae in Gisborne (just as they had been in 1965) on 19 July 1981. Despite all the pre-tour rhetoric and debate, few could have anticipated that the country was about to descend into near civil war, 'a war played out twice a week' as the Springboks moved from game to game.

29 July, Molesworth Street, Wellington – an 'eruption of violence'

The Springboks defeated Taranaki in New Plymouth, but the real action that day occurred on Molesworth Street, outside Parliament in Wellington. Police used batons on anti-tour protestors for the first time. Former Prime Minister Norman Kirk's prediction almost a decade earlier that a tour would result in the 'greatest eruption of violence this country has ever known' was realised.

See the related film clip and more about the Molesworth Street protest.

6MB Video: http://www.nzhistory.net.nz//files/videos&videoFile=81tour-007.flv

The third test: Eden Park, Auckland, 12 September 1981 (http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/?q=node/2449)
Outside the ground 'all hell broke loose'. Fighting erupted in the streets surrounding Eden Park and police were pelted with rocks and missiles. Some commentators argued that hard core protestors were joined by opportunists who just wanted to fight with police.

While security around the ground was the tightest of the tour, the battle was taken to the sky above Eden Park. The actions of Marx Jones and Grant Cole in their hired Cessna aeroplane probably made the abiding memories of the game. Jones and Cole buzzed Eden Park and dropped flares and flour bombs in a bid to halt the game. In surreal conditions, befitting the nature of the tour, the game continued. All Black prop Gary Knight was felled by a flour bomb, and the South African captain asked 'whether New Zealand had an air force or not?'

Impact of the 1981 Springbok tour (http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/culture/1981-springbok-tour/impact-of-the-tour)
The division between city and country
Support for the Springbok tour was particularly strong in rural and small-town New Zealand. In the Taranaki dairy town of Eltham, 50 lonely protestors were showered with eggs and bottles as they marched up the street one Friday night.

<snip/>
One survey at the time found that over half of the anti-tour protestors had a university degree and another third had university entrance. In 1981 there were over 50,000 students enrolled in tertiary institutions. The educated middle class was critical to the anti-tour movement. Exposed to the international world of learning, they were articulate in their promotion of the issues.

The unions and working-class activists played an important role in anti-tour protest, but the largest numbers in the streets were educated middle-class people.
Battle lines are drawn - 1981 Springbok tour (http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/culture/1981-springbok-tour/battle-lines-are-drawn)
1981: a divided New Zealand

Many of the protestors had grown up in the relatively prosperous years of the 1950s. Many of them were also rugby fans.

<snip/>

The anti-tour protest movement included many urban, educated professionals but also enjoyed strong union support.

Historian Jock Phillips sees the tour as a clash between the 'old and the new New Zealand', which revealed itself in five main ways:
* the struggle between baby boomers and war veterans
* city versus country
* men versus women
* black versus white
* 'Britain of the south' versus independent Pacific nation.



Leaving the beat (http://masseynews.massey.ac.nz/magazine/2006_Apr/stories/04-20-06.html)
Retired Commissioner of Police Rob Robinson talks to Professor George Shouksmith

GS One of the watersheds in your time in the police and in the relationship between the police and the public was the 1981 Springbok tour.

RR ...There’d been a demonstration at Parliament. They’d marched to the South African ambassador’s residence in Wadestown. We’d been deployed there, along with many other staff. Some arrests were made at the ambassador’s residence and the arrestees were returned to Wellington Central Police Station... <snip/>...what really distressed me and gave me a view of the vigour and the feeling in the protest was the range of middle New Zealanders, young and old, confronting and abusing my constables for hours, calling them Uncle Toms. This was preominantly white New Zealand confronting police officers of Maori or Pacific Island ethnic origin and abusing them for doing their duty. So there were things that really did push the community and the police apart.

GS A low point in terms of policing in New Zealand, do you think?

RR Yes, it was. It was a strange time, the period of the 1981 Springbok tour. ... <snip/>...There was the level of feeling that was expressed from within the community after the Hamilton game. There were the difficulties when police were called on to police members of their own families. There were those police officers who, following their consciences, were allowed to stand down from active duty on the Springbok tour – which was, I think, enlightened policy from the leadership of the day.

It has taken a long time for some of these wounds to heal.

The Atheist
28th August 2007, 11:16 PM
My saying that there "was almost a civil war over" was simply a rhetorical device ...

My, my, looks like a live nerve was touched there!

Amazingly comprehensive answer to cover up the only bit which mattered.

six7s
29th August 2007, 03:57 AM
Amazingly comprehensive answer to cover up the only bit which mattered.
Alas, you have either overlooked or ignored the issue

I admit, the post is a tad on the long side - although comprehensive is perhaps too generous - but, the tool at my fingertips is ideally suited for quick and easy research, with sources that are both numerous and consistent. Plus, recounting details of an event that I know to be true allows my own words to flow easliy. I recommend it too, as it can be quite cathartic, especially so when motivated to counter obvious falsehoods that demean the principles and hard-won acheivements that combine to make the world a better place

Of course, not all lies are deemed worthy of countering

But when they are perpetrated by someone regarded as a reliable source, in a forum extolling the virtues of honesty and scepticism, casual observers could be forgiven for believing what are, if not blatant lies, at least either ignorant or perverse misrepresentations of the truth

History has shown that even a single spore of falsehood in the darkest recesses can, when supplemented by BS, all too easily mushroom to the point where it serves as propaganda for subversive extremists such as fascists, nazis, right-wingers and other scum who rise to the top by feeding racist, xenophobic patriotism on the ill-informed and unwary who then naively endorse terrorism of the mind and body on innocent people

That was the bit that mattered

Still does

Always will, to me

If the above doesn't make sense, then perhaps a simple re-reading of your own nonsense, contrasted with the truth, will prove enlightening

The Atheist
29th August 2007, 04:54 AM
Not just a raw nerve, obsession, by the looks.

You do realise that this all happened a generation ago? I'm wondering why you're so sensitive on the issue. Maybe the facts don't fit with the rose-tinted spectacles you're carrying out your revisionism with.

Anyway, let's have a look:

Alas, you have either overlooked or ignored the issue

Incorrect. My issue was simply to counter your ridiculous assertion that it was "almost civil war", a position which you yourself subsequently described as "rhetoric". I say hyperbole, you say rhetoric. Considering there is apparently no civil war in Iraq while hundreds die weekly and you're referring to some civil protests which ended in no deaths, with no guns being fired as "almost civil war".

Palpably false.

Now, what else do you have to add?

I admit, the post is a tad on the long side - although comprehensive is perhaps too generous - but, the tool at my fingertips is ideally suited for quick and easy research, with sources that are both numerous and consistent. Plus, recounting details of an event that I know to be true allows my own words to flow easliy. I recommend it too, as it can be quite cathartic, especially so when motivated to counter obvious falsehoods that demean the principles and hard-won acheivements that combine to make the world a better place

Beautiful example of a paragraph saying nothing. You were there. Marvellous. Eyewitness testimony is so reliable.

I wasn't wrong about the overselling part, was I? Now it's gone from "almost civil war" to something which "makes the world a better place".

Is this a rugby tour or Dunkirk you're talking about?

Of course, not all lies are deemed worthy of countering

No, but if there's one area where it is worth countering, it's blatant revisionism, which is what you're attempting here.

But when they are perpetrated by someone regarded as a reliable source, in a forum extolling the virtues of honesty and scepticism, casual observers could be forgiven for believing what are, if not blatant lies, at least either ignorant or perverse misrepresentations of the truth

I'm assuming you mean me here and I'll wait to see what "blatant lies" I've told.

;)

History has shown that even a single spore of falsehood in the darkest recesses can, when supplemented by BS, all too easily mushroom to the point where it serves as propaganda for subversive extremists such as fascists, nazis, right-wingers and other scum who rise to the top by feeding racist, xenophobic patriotism on the ill-informed and unwary who then naively endorse terrorism of the mind and body on innocent people

:dl:

(I was going to emphasise the funny bits of it, then I realised it was the whole paragraph.)

Not Dunkirk, but The Alamo, Dunkirk, Iwo Jima and Iraq, all in one.

*knock, knock* Real world calling....

What does that gorgeous homily have anything I have said so far? Straw on sale down your way? "Fascists, Nazis, right-wingers and other scum"? Wow!

That was the bit that mattered

Still does

Always will, to me

Mate, with an attitude like that, you should become a christian. Only heaven could confer the awards necessary to acknowledge the selflessness of your actions.

What is it you did again? Oh yeah, saved the world. Well done!

If the above doesn't make sense, then perhaps a simple re-reading of your own nonsense, contrasted with the truth, will prove enlightening

It all makes a lovely kind of Karmic sense, but I have no idea what you're on about. No doubt you'll get to some kind of point.

I've brought the post over from the other thread after you'd had your little rant in it:


Not at all
For a simple illustration of idiocy, we need look no further than your most recent nonsense

Oh, do go on! Given the level of "evidence" you've presented, I find it droll that you class my post as "nonsense".

Your assertion that my statement was hyperbolic: False.

So, we're back to "almost civil war"? You already admitted it was a rhetorical usage, now it's factual again? Please clarify: was New Zealand "almost in a state of civil war" in 1981?

You cherry=picked my 'statement' to suit your own, seemingly perverse, agenda

Assumption, strawman, argument from ignorance, take your pick. I took a statement which you have already described as "rhetorical". You made the comment that NZ "almost had a civil war" during 1981. This is patently false, yet my pointing it out is a "perverse agenda"! Do you have some kind of persecution complex?

I was simply pointing out a fallacy, but in my usual sarcastic fashion. You have read an awful lot into a very simple refutation of a basic error. But keep going...

Need further evidence of idiocy? Consider the fact that you, an articulate man from New Zealand chose to alert critical thinkers that my rhetorical phrase "almost civil war" would convey "the wrong idea" about what happened in NZ around the time of the '81 tour

Well, I'm sorry, but that's exactly what it does - gives completely the wrong impression. I fail to understand why you'd want to describe it in those terms, other than it adding some kind of validity to the protests in 1981. Unfortunately, revisionism usually fails, because there are records of the events, masses of them in the case of 1981.

To reinforce your self-appointed and inappropriate authority, you distorted the emphasis of my post and then went on to pronounce it as "garbage"

Yes, it's an unforgiveable habit of mine to call something garbage when it is a fabricated assertion.

True, but then nothing, other than a civil war is like a civil war when words are wielded as a weapon

Civil don't generally take place by protests outside football grounds on Saturday afternoons. Possible in Brazil maybe, but I don't think even they'd call it "civil war".

This is patently falsifiable. I know. I was there. Furthermore, there is ample film footage that shows your words to be lies

Oops.

You want to falsify it? Go ahead and show the evidence of where the protestors were when the crowd came out of Eden Park after the third test.

Hint: nowhere to be seen.

Cheers.

150,000 people out of a total population of less than 4 million is "a few"?

Given your attitude of sceptical and critical thinking, I'm wondering which orifice you pulled that number out of. I'm reasonably sure that 150k which gets bandied about is the total number of people at protests, nationally. Many people attended two or more protests. I'll admit that lots of people protested. Lots of people paid to go the rugby, too.

I really wonder why you choose to regard it as 'over-selling'

One day, I hope that you'll be able to sit calmly and see the blood still boiling in your posts, 26 years later, and see why I think you're overselling what happened. I'm not sure why you need to see it as you seem to want to, but each to his own.

Methinks you protest too much,

:dl:

Really? Seen your own posts yet?

and on the wrong side

Really? I wasn't aware that I'd staked a position on any "side" at this stage, barring the one about dishonesty of statements.

Can you just run by me which side I'm on, what it means, what my position on it is and what I'm supposed to think/say. Cheers

Wouldn't want to get you building strawman on what you want me to think.

six7s
29th August 2007, 05:16 AM
Apparently you didn't understood the parting advice in my last post

If the above doesn't make sense, then perhaps a simple re-reading of your own nonsense, contrasted with the truth, will prove enlightening

That involves finding authoritative documentation and reading it

It seems you have only skimmed the links I posted in order to cherry-pick and then twist what happened to reinforce your memory and/or what you want to believe

If so, that is your problem

Your mocking does not make your personal memory of history correct

That is a problem that is unlikely to be resolved here

lionking
29th August 2007, 05:42 AM
At the risk of stepping between you two (not both ex-forwards I hope) describing the 1981 rugby protests as almost civil war is a ridiculous over-statement, whether by six7s or provincial police at the time. Having said that Atheist's response (and it's tone) is a bit over the top. Yellow cards to both.

Lothian
29th August 2007, 06:17 AM
Who won the series ?

The Shank
29th August 2007, 06:47 AM
Keewees going at it, and no mention of sheep?

Garrette
29th August 2007, 10:35 AM
Knowing nothing of the Tour, I found this to be the central statement of the OP:
six years later, the Labour government of David Lange told Uncle Sam where he could stick his nuclear shipsWhat?!

How dare you?!

Why, if it weren't for the U.S. You'd Be Speaking German!

There. I have now exhausted the America-is-the-Greatest-Country-on-Earth arguments, but I think it is sufficient.

The Atheist
29th August 2007, 12:40 PM
Who won the series ?

Good point; there was some rugby in amongst the flour bombs - when did a civil war ever use flour bombs? - and the ABs did, in fact, win a very tight series against the traditional foe.

Did you see any of it? The 3rd/final test wasn't a great game, but was extreme tension all round - some clown flying a plane overhead dropping parachute flares and flour bombs, barbed-wire barricades keeping the riff-raff off the paddock, our pansy of a fullback, Allan Hewson, missing catches, allowing tries and kicking penalties from halfway, including one after what seemed like 20 minutes of injury time to win the game.

Quite surreal.

The Atheist
29th August 2007, 12:44 PM
At the risk of stepping between you two (not both ex-forwards I hope) describing the 1981 rugby protests as almost civil war is a ridiculous over-statement, whether by six7s or provincial police at the time. Having said that Atheist's response (and it's tone) is a bit over the top. Yellow cards to both.

Fair point, my response is OTT. You're right, I should have left it at "ridiculous overstatement".

Out of the bin and behaving.

:)

The Atheist
29th August 2007, 01:06 PM
Apparently you didn't understood the parting advice in my last post

No, six, I understood it implicitly. What you miss is that I simply don't care enough to do more than letting people know about the fallacy of the "almost civil war". I do note that the prime link you gave - the NZHistory.co one - described the tour as "near civil war". Unfortunately, I know that that is a complete fabrication, as does any sane person who was in the country at the time, so I'm not going to give any credence to the site anyway.

That involves finding authoritative documentation and reading it

Apart from the fact that your link was not to an authority, I repeat that I actually don't care. I didn't care 26 years ago, why on earth should I care now?

It seems you have only skimmed the links I posted in order to cherry-pick and then twist what happened to reinforce your memory and/or what you want to believe

I'm not really sure where you come out with this statement from, considering I hardly mentioned your links, beyond describing the level of evidence you provided is suspect. I don't need to read the entire 20 pages to realise that is correct. When a couple of the first "facts" I see are highly questionable, [read: wrong] I have no intention of wasting the next few hours finding other inconsistencies and fallacies.

Whether your or my memory of events is correct is completely irrelevant - you've already shown that you can't be honest on the subject and it is that kind of subject - lots of people seem to still have an axe to grind 26 years after the event.

Perhaps it would be more pertinent to discover why tension is still so high in some quarters almost three decades later.

The Atheist
29th August 2007, 01:08 PM
There. I have now exhausted the America-is-the-Greatest-Country-on-Earth arguments, but I think it is sufficient.

But you made one terminal mistake:

Why, if it weren't for the U.S. You'd Be Speaking German!

It would be Japanese!

Damien Evans
30th August 2007, 12:35 AM
Nothing like an old rugby series to get kiwis arguing...

The Atheist
30th August 2007, 01:16 AM
Nothing like an old rugby series to get kiwis arguing...

Now about that underarm incident...

kiwimac
30th August 2007, 06:02 AM
I too was there, I was in Molesworth street. Tell me, TA, were you there? Or did you not care what happened as long as you could see some rugby?

Damien Evans
30th August 2007, 08:37 AM
Now about that underarm incident...

Completely legal, completely unethical, completely disgusting.

I wouldn't have blamed the batsman if he hit Ian Chapell with the bat rather than hitting the ball

The Atheist
30th August 2007, 11:19 AM
I too was there, I was in Molesworth street. Tell me, TA, were you there? Or did you not care what happened as long as you could see some rugby?

Have you stopped beating your wife?

The Atheist
30th August 2007, 11:40 AM
Completely legal, completely unethical, completely disgusting.

I wouldn't have blamed the batsman if he hit Ian Chapell with the bat rather than hitting the ball

Actually, it never bothered me that much - McKechnie was never going to hit 6 at the G, and even if he did, it didn't us anything apart from the chance to play another game.

In terms of devious, double-dealing, underhandedness and ripping NZ off, check out details regarding the scratching of a horse named Kiwi from the Melbourne Cup in 1984. (Can't find links and Wiki is wrong - says he ran! LOL! - but I'm pretty sure it's the only time the stipes have scratched a defending champ from the race.)

You may get a clue why they didn't want him in it when you see what he did in '83:

Vl-j6Em-Y78

Might have to start a new sports thread on Aussie sporting rip-offs!

kiwimac
30th August 2007, 03:31 PM
Just as soon as she stops beating me!

The Atheist
30th August 2007, 03:51 PM
Just as soon as she stops beating me!

Kudos on the profile - I always prefer people to be upfront and you couldn't be much more upfront than yours.

Priest as in RCC? (Haven't heard of any other religions using the term, although His Holiness Pope St. Brian Tamaki The Only may have a couple tucked away.)

I look forward to clashing in the religion area!

lionking
3rd September 2007, 05:22 AM
Actually, it never bothered me that much - McKechnie was never going to hit 6 at the G, and even if he did, it didn't us anything apart from the chance to play another game.

In terms of devious, double-dealing, underhandedness and ripping NZ off, check out details regarding the scratching of a horse named Kiwi from the Melbourne Cup in 1984. (Can't find links and Wiki is wrong - says he ran! LOL! - but I'm pretty sure it's the only time the stipes have scratched a defending champ from the race.)

You may get a clue why they didn't want him in it when you see what he did in '83:

Vl-j6Em-Y78

Might have to start a new sports thread on Aussie sporting rip-offs!
Make sure the new thread is in the Conspiracy Theory sub-forum. I can then respond with my theories of rugby and cricket umpiring malfeasence in NZ before neutral umpires/referees.

The Atheist
3rd September 2007, 12:49 PM
Make sure the new thread is in the Conspiracy Theory sub-forum. I can then respond with my theories of rugby and cricket umpiring malfeasence in NZ before neutral umpires/referees.

That doesn't belong in CT, that's all quite factual and well-known. We all did it, although I do believe the South Africans were the worst offenders - or at least, the most blatant.

Feel free to discuss it in here, it's history and the thread itself died the quite natural death it deserved as a piece of revisionist rubbish.

Which series in particular are you looking at?

p.s. Don't forget netball.