Freedom of Speech: Split from: Why fighting truthers?

[Oliver]

And since that isn't allowed in any country on this planet I have to wonder why you are so upset about the USA. All of Europe, at the very least, has libel, slander, copyright, trademarks and patents. These all restrict your speech. Why are you only complaining about the US when you are restricted wherever you live? In addition, since I believe you are German, you actually have far more restrictions on free speech since you are not allowed to question anything about the Nazi's or even to show symbols associated with them.

In addition, the sweary police you seem to be complaining about don't exist. You are perfectly free to shout **** in public in pretty much any country. This is normally frowned on as impolite, but neither I or any of my friends have ever even been told off, let alone cautioned by the police, for swearing in public. As I said, most web forums have rules against swearing and other incivility, but as private property they are free to enforce just about any rules they care to think up, whether they are in the US or anywhere else.


Yes, I live in Germany and I'm free to say that "Jews are the plague of humanity" if I prefer to do so. But I'm not allowed to print and publish these lies. But it doesn't restrict my way of free speech at all - besides the social consequences I would have to face - which is: "Go away, you stupid Nut".

But I see differences between the US and Europe concerning "Woo" since the US-Woo is much more present over here than any European Woo. So how did the US-Woo ended up here? Why is Euro-Woo no issue at all over here?

Do you have an answer to that?

And you don't think any other country has any woo beliefs? The Loch Ness monster, crop circles, fortune telling, psychics, Christianity, astrology, fairies, elves, goblins, Saint Nicholas, and far more than I can possibly put here. These are beliefs that exist in pretty much every country in the world, let alone Europe. In fact, the majority of woo was around before the USA even existed.

As for conspiracy, I am reliably informed that the government are covering up crop circles, the royal family and much of the government are giant shape-shifting alien lizards, perpetual motion is being supressed, the NHS is supressing homeopathy/herbalism/acupuncture/insert personal favourite quackery here to make money, drug companies are doing the same, Diana was murdered and pretty much anything you care to think about Iraq. Distrust of the government is in no way exclusively an American pursuit. Conspiracy theories the world over range from the plausible but unproven all the way up to David Icke. Why are you so obsessed about America when their behaviour is no different from anywhere else?


I'm not obsessed with America - but unfortunately it's the country where conspiracies come from. And I don't fully understand why that is - it's a social issue inasmuch that the American Society does accept "Woo" much more than the european societies would.

Or how do you explain the "Creationists-Bible-Belt" that is pretty unique for the rest of the Christian world? Coincidence?

[Cuddles]

But I'm not allowed to print and publish these lies. But it doesn't restrict my way of free speech at all

And you don't see any contradiction in these two sentences?

But I see differences between the US and Europe concerning "Woo" since the US-Woo is much more present over here than any European Woo. So how did the US-Woo ended up here? Why is Euro-Woo no issue at all over here?

Do you have an answer to that?

Until you provide evidence for your complaints about America I don't see that there is anything to answer.

I'm not obsessed with America - but unfortunately it's the country where conspiracies come from. And I don't fully understand why that is - it's a social issue inasmuch that the American Society does accept "Woo" much more than the european societies would.

I provided a list of conspiracies, many of which are widely believed, that have absolutely nothing to do with America. I also provided a list of woo that has nothing to do with America. I pointed out that not only does most woo not come from America, but most of it existed before America did. Rather than ranting about how bad America and everyone in it is, why don't you try reading other people's posts, including mine, and actually looking at evidence, both here and elsewhere.

The simple fact is, most woo wasn't invented in America. Woo isn't as accepted in America as in many other places. Conspiracy theories do not only exist in America. Please either stop asserting all your nonsense as fact or provide evidence to support it.

Or how do you explain the "Creationists-Bible-Belt" that is pretty unique for the rest of the Christian world? Coincidence?

Creationism is American? I'm can think of several people who would be rather surprised to hear that. Jesus, for example. Also Moses, the Pope, Adam and Eve, God, and plenty of others. In fact, until about 200 years ago, creationism was accepted as fact by pretty much everyone, and had been since humans first crawled out of their caves and enslaved the dinosaurs. No Americans required.

[dirtywick]

What Idea? I don't think the US-Gov is capable of doing anything without being debunked on the spot. The point I was talking about that people in the US tend to believe their governments whenever there is a new, evil "Castro", "Saddam", "communism" or something like that. How can someone swallow this fear-mongering and be suspicious about the Government at the same time?


That's not what I was talking about. This:

Free speech means that I'm allowed to say whatever and about whoever I want. And I fully understand that libel is limiting free speech. And so does "OMG, Fire!". Free speech is an illusion - and I have no Idea why Americans praise it nevertheless - especially because my experience over here with free speech is that I'm even more free than US-Citizens. If i feel to scream F* - than I don't get censored at all.

Where are you getting the idea that you can't scream F* without being censored? You've said similar things repeatedly.

I think the problem is you know very little about America or Americans.

[Ziggurat]

But I see differences between the US and Europe concerning "Woo" since the US-Woo is much more present over here than any European Woo. So how did the US-Woo ended up here? Why is Euro-Woo no issue at all over here?

How do you define US-Woo versus Euro-Woo? Is it where the ideas originate? Or is it what the ideas are about? Because plenty of conspiracy theories originate in Europe. A book claiming 9/11 was a government conspiracy, written by French authors, was a best seller there. But conspiracy theories tend to focus on those perceived as having power. And America is perceived as having power. Europe is not. And the reasons are pretty obvious: America does have power, and the will to use it, while Europe has little power and even less will to use the power it has.

Oh, and Marxism? That's Woo. It's got a very European heritage. And it's done far more damage to the world than any crazy idea that originated anywhere in the US. As for why Europeans don't recognize it as Woo, well, I have no answer. But it should trouble you, not comfort you, that it is not generally considered as such.

[MaGZ]

Or how do you explain the "Creationists-Bible-Belt" that is pretty unique for the rest of the Christian world? Coincidence?

I explain it by religious fanatics leaving Europe and going to America. I think something similar happened to Australia. If you listen to religious radio programs in America today (with a Creationist bent), often the person speaking has an Australian accent.

[CptColumbo]

I explain it by religious fanatics leaving Europe and going to America. I think something similar happened to Australia. If you listen to religious radio programs in America today (with a Creationist bent), often the person speaking has an Australian accent.I don't listen to those programs, and am not sure where to find them. However, I notice that most of the Christian television broadcasters tend to have a Southern USA accent and dialect.

Maybe it's just the guys in your area.

[DRBUZZ0]

Yeah. The whole situation in Germany always kinda bewildered me. They basically make it illegal to publish, disseminate or otherwise put forward statements such as denying the Holocaust or have any pro-nazi rallies.

Why?

Well, because the Nazis were a powerful and terrible party which caused a lot of damage and killed millions... We cannot allow them to come into power again because they were able to have a strangle hold on the nation by persecuting those who opposed them or spoke up against the government and restricting freedom of information and controlling all the media...

Thus, we must severely punish anyone who says anything which goes against that.


Um... right... good job there.

[Dancing David]

Neo-paganism started in Europe. As did the Catholic church.

[NobbyNobbs]

Yes, I live in Germany and I'm free to say that "Jews are the plague of humanity" if I prefer to do so. But I'm not allowed to print and publish these lies. But it doesn't restrict my way of free speech at all - besides the social consequences I would have to face - which is: "Go away, you stupid Nut".



Hehe....that's funny....did you read what you wrote before you posted?

And by posting, doesn't that mean you both printed and published that sentence? Have you just broken the law?

And here's an interesting fact for you. In America, should I choose to do so, I could put a swastika on a placard and get a permit to parade up and down the street with a sign saying "Hitler had it right". Can you do that in Germany? No? So, once again, which country has more freedom of speech?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Oh, and Marxism? That's Woo.

I always find it strange that a political ideology can be described as "woo". Francis Wheen made a similar claim about trickle down economics in "How Mumbo-jumbo conquered the world".

As a better example of European woo, I would point to the fact that France is the biggest market in the world for homeopathic "treatments" and that supposedly 40% of French people have hade such "treatment".

http://www.boiron.com/en/htm/01_homeo_aujourdhui/realite_eco_homeo.htm

[slingblade]

Or how do you explain the "Creationists-Bible-Belt" that is pretty unique for the rest of the Christian world? Coincidence?

Poor and superstitious Scots and Irish settlers.

Hey, it's my birthplace. I can explain it that way if I like.

[DRBUZZ0]

One thing I am very glad of in America is that freedom of speech, being protected by the first amendment and such is something that bush has been unable to touch.

There are illegal unwarented wiretaps, searches of private records, times when the government can hold you without a trial... all of these of course are illegal and (luckilly) a few have already been struck down by the federal courts... the rest hopefully will be totally destroyed soon...

But you can still speak up against the administration all you want. You can publish anti-bush websites and call for his impeachment. As long as you don't make a speffic and credible threat of violence, you're protected.

[chran]

And here's an interesting fact for you. In America, should I choose to do so, I could put a swastika on a placard and get a permit to parade up and down the street with a sign saying "Hitler had it right". Ha, do you need a permit to promote nazism?

Fascism :eye-poppi

[Ziggurat]

Ha, do you need a permit to promote nazism?

Fascism :eye-poppi

Only to do it in the street. We'll put up with no end of nonsense if it doesn't get in the way of our commute.

[UserGoogol]

I always find it strange that a political ideology can be described as "woo". Francis Wheen made a similar claim about trickle down economics in "How Mumbo-jumbo conquered the world".

Yeah, but Political ideologies such as Marxism and trickle-down make factual claims, and thus the arguments behind these claims can be deemed psuedoscientific in nature. I'm not a big fan of the word "woo," and am perfectly content having it be kept a fairly tightly defined term, confined merely to belief in the paranormal, but if you define the word more broadly, then political ideologies often fall into the categories.

[technoextreme]

I'm not obsessed with America - but unfortunately it's the country where conspiracies come from. And I don't fully understand why that is - it's a social issue inasmuch that the American Society does accept "Woo" much more than the european societies would.

Or how do you explain the "Creationists-Bible-Belt" that is pretty unique for the rest of the Christian world? Coincidence?
Nah.... All countries have idiotic conspiracy theories. I just had a discussion with a Greek on another message board about an idiotic conspiracy theory involving the United States burning their country. As someone pointed out the 9/11 book was very popular originated from France.
Ha, do you need a permit to promote nazism?

Fascism
To have a parade you have to have a permit. My grandma/great grandma used to watch Nazis parade up and down the street in New York.:)

[DRBUZZ0]

I'm not obsessed with America - but unfortunately it's the country where conspiracies come from. And I don't fully understand why that is - it's a social issue inasmuch that the American Society does accept "Woo" much more than the european societies would.

Or how do you explain the "Creationists-Bible-Belt" that is pretty unique for the rest of the Christian world? Coincidence?

More accepting of woo than european societies??????????? :jaw-dropp

Granted, America has the Bible belt and some of the classic conspiracy theories.

But take a look at much of the psuedo-science that comes from Europe. There's a much bigger backlash in Europe than the US over "EMF Smog" and cell towers causing bad vibes. In the UK several school districts voted to not allow wifi networks because of "possible health effects."

Europe is ripe with alternative medicine and metaphysical stuff. Multiple-chemical-sensitivity, bad-radiation and so on.

It may be a consequence of dealing with the real concerns from chernobyl, but in Sweeden, Germany, France and elsewhere people are up in arms about radiation from power lines and power plants and percieved health effects from every product you can think of. Sweeden has had some public rallies against the "headaches" caused by new Wimax transmitters located miles from where people live (hint: Inverse square law)

Furthermore, there are a LOT of 9/11 conspiracy theories which originated in France and Germany.

Ghost and paranormal woo is not exactly rare in the UK and some of the worst psuedo-skeptics and psudo-scientists hail from the UK. There has been a resurgence of pagans and spiritualism across europe, especially in Scottland and Ireland.

Traditional religion has not gone away either. In much of western Europe the fundies are not like they used to be, but some countries are still VERY religious. Poland is considered one of the most strongly religious catholic nations in the world.


In the Balkins and places like Romania, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia: there are STILL very old religious practices such as the occasional vampire hunt, hanging herbs to ward off evil spirits and other traditions which go back centuries and fly in the face of all modern science. Albania may very well be the worst.

Don't even get me started on some of what goes on all over the former soviet union, when it comes to woo.