Nerve Gas Scare at U.N. Headquarters

[ZENSMACK89]

Nerve Gas Scare at U.N. Headquarters
August 30, 2007 12:01 PM
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/08/nerve-gas-scare.html
United Nations weapons inspectors discovered six to eight vials of a dangerous nerve gas, phosgene, as they were cleaning out offices at a U.N. building in New York this morning, federal authorities tell the Blotter on ABCNews.com.
"If it is properly sealed, it should not pose much of a threat unless it is dropped," said former New York City emergency services director Jerry Hauer, an ABC News consultant. "They need to get it out of there and put it in a safe canister," Hauer said. "It shows immense stupidity to have that kind of thing sitting around as a souvenir."

On September 11, 2001, in addition to his job with the NIH, Jerome Hauer was also Managing Director of Kroll Associates

“Jerome Hauer 9/11/2001 : No, I, uh, my sense is just the velocity of the plane and the fact that you have a plane filled with fuel hitting that building, uh, that burned, uh, the velocity of that plane, uh, certainly, uh, uh, had an impact on the structure itself, and then the fact that it burned and you had that intense heat, uh, probably weakened the structure as well, uh, and I think it, uh, was, uh, simply the, uh, the planes hitting the buildings, and, and causing the collapse.”

“Jerome Hauer 9/11/2001: Yeah, well I’m not sure I agree that, umm, this is necessarily state-sponsored. Umm, it, as I mentioned earlier, certainly has, umm, the, uh, fingerprints of somebody like Bin Laden.”

Stephen Hatfill, at one time considered a prime suspect in this still-unsolved case, had worked for USAMRIID at Fort Detrick. Strangely, perhaps, he had also worked with Jerome Hauer, for Scientific Applications International Corporation, at the Center for Counterterrorism Technology and Analysis.

On September 11, 2001, Jerome Hauer advised the White House to begin taking Cipro, an antibiotic which is effective against anthrax.

Jerome Hauer, the former head of HHS's [Health and Human Services] biodefense program, is now on the Board of Emergent Biosolutions, Bioport's parent company. Bioport is an extremely controversial pharmaceutical company that manufactures a despicable anthrax vaccine linked to deaths and injuries in the U.S. military.

[johnny karate]

And the point?

[firecoins]

what is the conspiracy exactly?

[Sabrina]

I'm assuming from the bolding you think there's some connection between Jerry Hauer and Jerome Hauer. So I just have one question for you.

Why?

[Katana]

{snip}

Bioport is an extremely controversial pharmaceutical company that manufactures a despicable anthrax vaccine linked to deaths and injuries in the U.S. military.


Do you have some evidence for this claim?

[funk de fino]

Not a nerve agent as far as I am aware

[Redtail]

Well it can be used in chem warfare. It was part of poison gas attacks in WWI. IIRC it is used in making polyurethane.

[Katana]

Phosgene was used extensively during World War I as a choking agent, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control.


Source. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20514509/)

ETA: Probably better to go to the CDC (http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/phosgene/basics/facts.asp).

Phosgene was used extensively during World War I as a choking (pulmonary) agent. Among the chemicals used in the war, phosgene was responsible for the large majority of deaths.

[ZENSMACK89]

what is the conspiracy exactly?
Jerome Hauer is already a subject in 9-11 conspiracy circles. Here's some back story on Jerry...

http://www.911omissionreport.com/jerome_hauer.html

[Redtail]

Jerome Hauer is already a subject in 9-11 conspiracy circles. Here's some back story on Jerry...

http://www.911omissionreport.com/jerome_hauer.html

I see, and the point of the OP?

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

So are you patting yourself on the back for figuring this all out Zen?

Are you claiming he planted them there at the U.N. just to rile people up? Let me guess, he was going to blow up the U.N. with it?

You do understand what speculation and conjecture are don't you?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Jerome Hauer is already a subject in 9-11 conspiracy circles. Here's some back story on Jerry...

http://www.911omissionreport.com/jerome_hauer.html

I stopped reading the article in the first paragraph.

"Hauer seems to specialize in the art of holding down several different jobs at the same time. While he started to work for the NIH in September 2001, he remained a Managing Director at Kroll Associates - the official security and bodyguard company for all American presidents since World War II. "

Security for the president is handled by the United States Secret Service.

When you can't last two sentences without getting something spectacularly wrong, the rest just isn't worth reading.

[NYCEMT86]

"Apparently UN weapons inspectors had collected these vials years back, they found them in Iraq back in 1996. They had been stored in this building, they are closing down that building, as they were going through boxes they came across this chemical agent. It could have been pretty disastrous if indeed one was broken or if this agent, this chemical agent was released from these vials..." CNN Live

[ZENSMACK89]

I see, and the point of the OP?
Well a couple of weeks ago I was on the thread

911 How would you have done it? (Or something to that affect)
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=90406

People were suggesting different ways to pull off a 9-11 type attack. I stated it's not just how you would do it but what do you have access and ability to pull off? I then wrote that Jerome Hauer and Kroll had all the access and know how to pull off 9-11. I also went on to suggest if we are attacked again it will probably be some kind of biological attack and Jerome Hauer will somehow be in the middle of it. The OP then suggested like they are always suggesting to me that I should take it to another thread. I never did.

When I read this today I thought it was interesting that Jerome Hauer commented on it and insinuated that this was just a stupid mistake and implied someone was just keeping this stuff around for a souvenir.

Call me crazy but I doubt that’s all there really is to it.

[Arus808]

and because you only report on what is being said at the moment in time, without getting the full story' you ignored the subsequent updates that explain why the scare happened.

[Drudgewire]

I stopped reading the article in the first paragraph.

[i]"Hauer seems to specialize in the art of holding down several different jobs at the same time..."
You made it further than me, I got as far as the thrid word.

"Seems to," "looks like," "can imagine." Twoofer replacement terminology for "is," "does," and "verified by the scientific method." :p

[uk_dave]

Call me crazy but I doubt that’s all there really is to it.

Nah, ZEN, you're not crazy...... just special. :D

[VespaGuy]

Wait a sceond...

Jerome Hauer rhymes with Jack Bauer.

Conspiracy!!

[johnny karate]

I stated it's not just how you would do it but what do you have access and ability to pull off? I then wrote that Jerome Hauer and Kroll had all the access and know how to pull off 9-11. I also went on to suggest if we are attacked again it will probably be some kind of biological attack and Jerome Hauer will somehow be in the middle of it.

Well, if there is even a shred of validity to any of your speculations, I think it would be safe to say that Mr. Hauser's ability to pull off these attacks has greatly diminished in the last six years.

[Sabrina]

What I want to know is, why would you think an ABC news correspondent and Jerome Hauer are the same person? Just because their last names are the same and their first names are similar?

[ZENSMACK89]

What I want to know is, why would you think an ABC news correspondent and Jerome Hauer are the same person? Just because their last names are the same and their first names are similar?
consultant

"former New York City emergency services director Jerry Hauer, an ABC News consultant."

http://www.aeanet.org/Events/ORKN_Jerome_Hauer.asp
Before coming to HHS, Mr. Hauer was named by Mayor Rudolf Giuliani’s as New York City’s first Director of the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management (OEM) for the City of New York. During his tenure at OEM, Mr. Hauer was charged with coordinating the city’s planning for and response to natural and man-made events, including acts of terrorism.


http://www.upmc-biosecurity.org/website/events/2000_symposium-2/hauer/
Jerome Hauer, MPH
Managing Director, Kroll Worldwide, Crisis and Consequence Management

[Dr Harry Rein]

Call me crazy but I doubt that’s all there really is to it.

"Help me, I'm stupid" - Alex Jones

[tacodaemon]

A guy with expertise on dangerous chemical agents has held several key appointments requiring someone who is an expert on dangerous chemical agents? Say it ain't so!

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

All this proves is that the U.N. is an outdated and ineffectual organization that should stick to helping starving children, and nothing more.

[NYCEMT86]

consultant

<snip>


So when you want an expert opinion on something, you hire experts as consultants?

Who would have thunk it?


BTW...

The chemicals were stored there by UN Weapons Inspectors back in 96.

"U.N. archivists for UNMOVIC, the U.N. chemical weapons agency, unexpectedly turned up samples of material from an Iraqi chemical weapons plant in old files.

The samples were in weapons inspectors' files dating back to the 1990s, but the substance is not believed to pose any immediate danger, U.N. officials said Thursday." Source (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/30/un.gas/index.html)

[Redtail]

Well a couple of weeks ago I was on the thread

911 How would you have done it? (Or something to that affect)
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=90406

People were suggesting different ways to pull off a 9-11 type attack. I stated it's not just how you would do it but what do you have access and ability to pull off? I then wrote that Jerome Hauer and Kroll had all the access and know how to pull off 9-11. I also went on to suggest if we are attacked again it will probably be some kind of biological attack and Jerome Hauer will somehow be in the middle of it. The OP then suggested like they are always suggesting to me that I should take it to another thread. I never did.

When I read this today I thought it was interesting that Jerome Hauer commented on it and insinuated that this was just a stupid mistake and implied someone was just keeping this stuff around for a souvenir.

Call me crazy but I doubt that’s all there really is to it.


I think it interesting that there was no biological attack. In fact there wasn't even an attack.

[leftysergeant]

Couple points of clarification.

Hauer was the man who told Rudy not to put the OEM in WTC 7, but Rudy has been saying that it was Hauer's fault.

Hauer is one of the few people who has shown a lick of sense but is still listened to by highly-placed officials in any level of government.

Attacks on Hauer are pulled out of someone's butt, perhaps to further erode the public's confidence in government at any level, which is one of the basic aims of the TM and their white nationalist element.

Phosgene is not, to the best of my knowledge, used in making anything, but is a combustion product of some plastics, such as PVC. It was generated for warfare by heating carbontetrachloride. It basicly fills your lungs with mucus.

I may actually have inhaled a very minimal amount of it at one time. One of the fire extinguishing agents we used when I was in the Air Force was chlorobromethane. We were warned not to use it indoors without breathing aparatus because it decomposes into carbon monoxide and phosgene when heated.

A lot of deaths due to smoke inhalation are actually the result of burning materials like PVC that produce phosgene.

Basicly, nearly any halogenated hydrocarbon will deay into phosgene at high temperatures. This might even be one of the agents that is causing the respiratory ailments in NYC, post 9/11. I would be amazed if it were proven that there was no phosgene in the smoke from the rubble pile, given all the plastics in a typical American office building.

[ZENSMACK89]

A guy with expertise on dangerous chemical agents has held several key appointments requiring someone who is an expert on dangerous chemical agents? Say it ain't so!
Well being that there seems to be a shortage of scientists these days with this sort of expertise you might have a point there. In fact just being a scientist in general these days seems to have become a very dangerous occupation especially in the fields of bio-weapons and infectious diseases.


http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/04/23/1904659.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Norman

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&targetRule=5&xml=/news/2001/11/29/db2903.xml

http://health.ucsd.edu/news/2003/06_26_Rickman.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=940CEFDD143EF936A15756C0A9629C8B63

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/specials/2001/wiley/

http://deltafarmpress.com/mag/farming_lsu_mosquito_michael/

http://projectcamelot.org/badwey.html

http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/03_Disease/031212.dead.sci.Burghoff.html

[geni]

Phosgene is not, to the best of my knowledge, used in making anything

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene#Uses

I know people at my university used it from time to time but then if something is highly leathal there is a fair chance organic chemists will want to use it for something.

[dudalb]

I see the ZenSMack is using one of the standard tactics of Conspiracy Kooks: When a Conspiracy Falls apart,simply create a even bigger Conspiracy.

[ZENSMACK89]

So when you want an expert opinion on something, you hire experts as consultants?

Who would have thunk it?


BTW...

The chemicals were stored there by UN Weapons Inspectors back in 96.

"U.N. archivists for UNMOVIC, the U.N. chemical weapons agency, unexpectedly turned up samples of material from an Iraqi chemical weapons plant in old files.

The samples were in weapons inspectors' files dating back to the 1990s, but the substance is not believed to pose any immediate danger, U.N. officials said Thursday." Source (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/30/un.gas/index.html)
Why are you always taking my replys to someone else out of context and commenting on them?

Don't you have anything real to offer?

[Pardalis]

Zen, can't you wait before the events have fully unfolded before you go out and sream conspiracy?

You guys have become trigger happy. Where's the fun in being a conspiracy nut anymore?... :rolleyes:

[NYCEMT86]

Why are you always taking my replys to someone else out of context and commenting on them?

Don't you have anything real to offer?


I am providing you with facts, isn't this the "Nerve Gas Scare at U.N. Headquarters" thread?

You're grasping at straws with this attempt to connect this incident at the U.N. with Jerome Hauer.

[ZENSMACK89]

I see the ZenSMack is using one of the standard tactics of Conspiracy Kooks: When a Conspiracy Falls apart,simply create a even bigger Conspiracy.
I see dudalb is using the standard uninformed ad hominem attack when left with nothing intelligent to add.

Go look at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=90406.

It's all part of the same thing I pointed to a couple weeks ago.

[T.A.M.]

Why are you always taking my replys to someone else out of context and commenting on them?

Don't you have anything real to offer?

It is a public forum...get use to it.

TAM:)

[ZENSMACK89]

I am providing you with facts, isn't this the "Nerve Gas Scare at U.N. Headquarters" thread?

You're grasping at straws with this attempt to connect this incident at the U.N. with Jerome Hauer.
Trying to connect him?

Someone thought he was an ABC correspondent.

I pointed to he was a consultant commenting on the story and he was the same guy.

You then added "who would have thunk it?"

Do you know what a non sequitur is?

[Sabrina]

Oh for heaven's sake; I misread the darned word, all right! Big deal; he's a consultant for ABC and the same guy you keep harping on; WHATEVER! What does that have to do with the chemicals found at the U.N.????

[ZENSMACK89]

Zen, can't you wait before the events have fully unfolded before you go out and sream conspiracy?

You guys have become trigger happy. Where's the fun in being a conspiracy nut anymore?... :rolleyes:
trigger happy?

I'm sorry is Jerry new to you?

[NYCEMT86]

Trying to connect him?

You were the that put his name in bold than followed the quote with things related to 9/11. Than you go onto saying you "predicted" this. Yet it wasn't an attack and Jerome Hauer wasn't involved. Are you trying to connect him because he has knowledge of these things?


Someone thought he was an ABC correspondent.

My mistake


I pointed to he was a consultant commenting on the story and he was the same guy.

Again my mistake


You then added "who would have thunk it?"

Yes I did, thanks for noticing


Do you know what a non sequitur is?

Yes

[funk de fino]

Its piss poor journalism, thats what it is

Not even close to a nerve gas, used in WW1 as stated, then they change the report later to a chemical agent

Now what a surprise that is, the initial reports were erroneous, but that is not allowed in Trutherville

It must be a cover up

[ZENSMACK89]

You were the that put his name in bold than followed the quote with things related to 9/11. Than you go onto saying you "predicted" this. Yet it wasn't an attack and Jerome Hauer wasn't involved. Are you trying to connect him because he has knowledge of these things?



My mistake



Again my mistake



Yes I did, thanks for noticing



Yes
Predict? What did I say I predicted? I'm not saying this is thee biological attack or new 9-11 type event. I'm just pointing to how Jerome is commenting on it and insinuating it's just a stupid mistake of someone keeping a souvenir before anyone could possibly know the details yet. Just don't be surprised if that's all it turns out to be. Just like he knew about West Nile before it ever hit NYC. Just like he knew to advise Giuliani to put the Mayors bunker in Brooklyn instead of WTC7. (Or so he claims.) Just like he knew who committed 9-11 and why the buildings fell on CBS news the very morning of 9-11. Just like he knew to advise the White House on Cipro before any Anthrax attack ever happened.

What were weapon inspectors looking for at the UN? Do they normally keep this stuff lying around?

Just a stupid mistake of holding on to a souvenir?

Ok

Whose mistake would that be? Do we get a name?

Like I’ve said before, Jerome Hauer should either get a metal or get the chair.

[Pardalis]

Like I’ve said before, Jerome Hauer should either get a metal or get the chair.

A metal chair maybe?

[Hellbound]

Give him a metal medal, while he's in a chair.

[uk_dave]

What were weapon inspectors looking for at the UN? Do they normally keep this stuff lying around?

A building was being cleared out. UN weapons inspectors were not looking for anything at the UN.

Just a stupid mistake of holding on to a souvenir?

Or perhaps, back in the real world, it was part of evidence collected after gulf war1?

And how come you know so much about this guy Jerome Hauer anyway? You been researching him have you? Reading up on him? Or maybe, if it turns out that he is the big bad wolf after all, maybe we should come and see you, since you predicted it, right? How could you know in advance that this guy was a criminal? eh? eh? Is it because you're 'well informed' about him or is there some other reason? A more sinister reason.......

See how it works?

[Pardalis]

What were weapon inspectors looking for at the UN? Do they normally keep this stuff lying around?

Just a stupid mistake of holding on to a souvenir?

Ok

Whose mistake would that be? Do we get a name?

Why don't you get off your butt and ask the proper authorities on the matter. Do some research.

[leftysergeant]

Thanks for the link on the commercial use of phosgene, geni.

My first repsonse was YIKE!

So, if the twoofer have all that energy tosupposedly make their weorld better, it might be better used to protest the fact that little, if anything, has been done to secure industrial sites that use that stuff. Seems to me a National Guard detail to patrol the local industrial park would be more worthwhile as far as actual defense than one in Bagdhad.

[Alferd_Packer]

Its piss poor journalism, thats what it is

Not even close to a nerve gas, used in WW1 as stated, then they change the report later to a chemical agent

Now what a surprise that is, the initial reports were erroneous, but that is not allowed in Trutherville

It must be a cover up

No, it is actually evidence of Iraqi WMD, that the UN has been hiding all these years.

:D

[johnny karate]

I'm just wondering if ZEN is going to actually make an argument at some point regarding what all this is supposed to mean, or if he is just going to keep on posting links and arching his eyebrow.

[ZENSMACK89]

A building was being cleared out. UN weapons inspectors were not looking for anything at the UN.



Or perhaps, back in the real world, it was part of evidence collected after gulf war1?

And how come you know so much about this guy Jerome Hauer anyway? You been researching him have you? Reading up on him? Or maybe, if it turns out that he is the big bad wolf after all, maybe we should come and see you, since you predicted it, right? How could you know in advance that this guy was a criminal? eh? eh? Is it because you're 'well informed' about him or is there some other reason? A more sinister reason.......

See how it works?
Really? So these same inspectors who couldn’t find WMD's in Iraq also didn't know there was nerve gas right under someone’s desk in the UN for how many years now? Classically comical. But I guess that's your story and your sticking to it huh? Good for you.

How come I know so much or just more then you? Just because I've heard of him before and you haven't doesn't mean I'm the only one.

[ZENSMACK89]

I'm just wondering if ZEN is going to actually make an argument at some point regarding what all this is supposed to mean, or if he is just going to keep on posting links and arching his eyebrow.
I think you asked where the point is before. Maybe you should check the top of your cap while you're sitting in the corner.

[geni]

Thanks for the link on the commercial use of phosgene, geni.

My first repsonse was YIKE!

So, if the twoofer have all that energy tosupposedly make their weorld better, it might be better used to protest the fact that little, if anything, has been done to secure industrial sites that use that stuff. Seems to me a National Guard detail to patrol the local industrial park would be more worthwhile as far as actual defense than one in Bagdhad.

Not really.

First the amount you would need to kill large numbers of people make it unattractive to terrorists. Against a non dug in target I suspect you could get more kills with less effort through conventional explosives.

Secondly record keeping requirements are such that any going missing will be reported which means you then have the police after you. Much safer to make the stuff yourself. Not that hard.

None of the first world war gases really make good terrorist weapons. They need to be employed on a large scale to the point where they were only useable in WW1 because the war was so static. Sarin and VX make more sense but the Sarin attack on the Tokyo subway killed fewer than the 7 July 2005 London underground bombings.

There are chemicals worth stealing from commercial labs but I don’t think phosgene is one of them. Labs with large holdings of certain chemicals will take security seriously.

[johnny karate]

I think you asked where the point is before. Maybe you should check the top of your cap while you're sitting in the corner.

So... you don't have a point. Got it. Keep posting those links, sparky!

[ZENSMACK89]

Do you have some evidence for this claim?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax_vaccine

The only FDA-licensed human anthrax vaccine in the United States, Anthrax Vaccine Adsorbed (AVA, trade name BioThrax®), is produced by BioPort Corporation in Lansing, Michigan. The parent company of BioPort is Emergent BioSolutions.

The United States Centers for Disease Control (CDC) reported that from 1990 to 2000, more than 1,859,000 doses of anthrax vaccine were distributed in the United States.[11] During that decade, 1,544 adverse events were reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), 76 of these events (5%) were serious (results in death, hospitalization, or permanent disability or is life-threatening).


http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/dp-anth-day1dec02,0,6152311.story

An Incomplete Picture

Despite promises that hospitalizations after anthrax vaccinations would be reported, the Pentagon withheld data on more than 20,000 cases.
BY BOB EVANS | 247-4758
December 4, 2005

[pomeroo]

I must be very tired. I don't have foggiest notion of where all of this is headed. Who is conspiring with whom to do what?

[PhantomWolf]

I'm going to add to the so what. The canisters were from Iraq, they were catalouged and known about. As to Jerry Hauer, I find it interesting that Zen so carefully truncated the passage he quoted.

"...former New York City emergency services director Jerry Hauer, an ABC News consultant."

Gee, ABC ask him about it because he's one of their consultants and it has to do with an emergency in NY, so he gives them a quote. Big whoopie.

[PhantomWolf]

I must be very tired. I don't have foggiest notion of where all of this is headed. Who is conspiring with whom to do what?

Zen thinks that Jerry Hauer was behind 9/11.

[ZENSMACK89]

Zen thinks that Jerry Hauer was behind 9/11.
Look at the OP. I didn't truncate anything.

If you don't want to read or check the links just keep your foot in your mouth and

shhhhhhhhhhh

[PhantomWolf]

Look at the OP. I didn't truncate anything.

If you don't want to read or check the links just keep your foot in your mouth and

shhhhhhhhhhh

Okay so I missed that in the OP, but still wants you're point? Why shouldn't ABC ask him about it, he's a consultant for them and he used to deal with emergencies in NYC. Who do you think would be a better person to ask about it? Are you planning on suggesting that he planted them there? (apart from the fact that is obviously not the case.)

[ZENSMACK89]

Okay so I missed that in the OP, but still wants you're point? Why shouldn't ABC ask him about it, he's a consultant for them and he used to deal with emergencies in NYC. Who do you think would be a better person to ask about it? Are you planning on suggesting that he planted them there? (apart from the fact that is obviously not the case.)
"former New York City emergency services director Jerry Hauer"

What's the matter doesn't NYC have a present emergency services director to ask?

On 9-11 he was on the air with Dan Rather and already had the whole story in nutshell sound bite for the public to take in. Later on after advising the Whitehouse on Cipro without warning the general public he would insinuate Saddam was behind the Anthrax attacks. His friend Steven Hatfill would later become a leading suspect.

I would imagine if he felt it important enough to put is two cents in on this nerve gas today then there is probably more to it then they are letting on.

[PhantomWolf]

"former New York City emergency services director Jerry Hauer"

ABC consultant Jerry Hauer.

What's the matter doesn't NYC have a present emergency services director to ask?

Is he a consultant for ABC?


On 9-11 he was on the air with Dan Rather and already had the whole story in nutshell sound bite for the public to take in.

yes, he said that the momentum of the planes damaged the structure and started fires that caused the stell to give way. Big deal SO DID 90% OF THE PEOPLE ON THE PLANET! He made a statement that was so obvious a blind man's seeing eye dog could have told you it.

Later on after advising the Whitehouse on Cipro without warning the general public he would insinuate Saddam was behind the Anthrax attacks.

Whoopie, he advised the White House staff to take the best known general antibotic during a time that the US was under attack. What an amazing idea, I mean who could possibly think that when the country was under attack that it might be a good idea for the leaders to protect themselves against the possiblity of Biological attacks as well. Totally Inconceivable.

His friend Steven Hatfill would later become a leading suspect.

Other than that they worked togther, where is the evidence they were friends?

I would imagine if he felt it important enough to put is two cents in on this nerve gas today then there is probably more to it then they are letting on.

So when ABC asked him to comment as their consultant he should have said nothing?

edit to add: man you are a total poster boy for paranoids are us.

[ZENSMACK89]

Is he a consultant for ABC?

Yeah apparently he does a lot of that. Rather was CBS.

yes, he said that the momentum of the planes damaged the structure and started fires that caused the stell to give way. Big deal SO DID 90% OF THE PEOPLE ON THE PLANET! He made a statement that was so obvious a blind man's seeing eye dog could have told you it.

Wow and all those years and wasted tax dollars on NIST and all anyone had to do is ask Jerry Hauer or you. And he didn't even need a video taped confession to know UBL was behind it.

Whoopie, he advised the White House staff to take the best known general antibotic during a time that the US was under attack. What an amazing idea, I mean who could possibly think that when the country was under attack that it might be a good idea for the leaders to protect themselves against the possiblity of Biological attacks as well. Totally Inconceivable.

I guess Whoopie is what the anthrax victims would have said if someone had been kind enough to warn them.

Other than that they worked togther, where is the evidence they were friends?

They gave a presentation together called Building a 'Biobomb': The Terrorist Challenge on May 28, 1998 at a CFR conference. That would have been at the UN. You know the same place they found the nerve gas?

So when ABC asked him to comment as their consultant he should have said nothing?

How do you know they asked him? He could of just offered it up cause he’s just that kind of guy.

[Brainache]

"former New York City emergency services director Jerry Hauer"

What's the matter doesn't NYC have a present emergency services director to ask?

Maybe he was too busy dealing with an emergency to talk to reporters...


On 9-11 he was on the air with Dan Rather and already had the whole story in nutshell sound bite for the public to take in. Later on after advising the Whitehouse on Cipro without warning the general public he would insinuate Saddam was behind the Anthrax attacks. His friend Steven Hatfill would later become a leading suspect.

I would imagine if he felt it important enough to put is two cents in on this nerve gas today then there is probably more to it then they are letting on.

Can you please stop calling it nerve gas?

[ZENSMACK89]

Maybe he was too busy dealing with an emergency to talk to reporters...

Yeah you're right. It's not like they have a public relations department or something.

Can you please stop calling it nerve gas?

Hey buddy? Try to read that OP when you get the chance will ya?

Nerve Gas Scare at U.N. Headquarters
August 30, 2007 12:01 PM
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/...gas-scare.html
United Nations weapons inspectors discovered six to eight vials of a dangerous nerve gas, phosgene, as they were cleaning out offices at a U.N. building in New York this morning, federal authorities tell the Blotter on ABCNews.com.

[Brainache]

Yeah you're right. It's not like they have a public relations department or something.

Well then maybe ABC wanted to talk to an actual expert instead of some PR hack.



Hey buddy? Try to read that OP when you get the chance will ya?

Nerve Gas Scare at U.N. Headquarters
August 30, 2007 12:01 PM
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/...gas-scare.html
United Nations weapons inspectors discovered six to eight vials of a dangerous nerve gas, phosgene, as they were cleaning out offices at a U.N. building in New York this morning, federal authorities tell the Blotter on ABCNews.com.

Maybe you could try reading some of the responses by people like LeftySergent who pointed out that phosgene is not a nerve gas. It is poisonous and was used in WW1, but it is not nerve gas.

Here is some more:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003861161_webun30.html

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/phosgene/basics/facts.asp

and good old wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosgene

[PhantomWolf]

Yeah apparently he does a lot of that. Rather was CBS.

And why is that strange? He's qualified to speak on those sort of issues, why wouldn't TV stations go to him for sound bites? When we have a rugby story over here they often go to ex-All Blacks and talk to them. Political stories get comments by ex-politicians and so on. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Wow and all those years and wasted tax dollars on NIST and all anyone had to do is ask Jerry Hauer or you.

Except for the fact that Jerry Hauer didn't give the exact reason that NIST did for the collapse, even by your own quote he isn't giving anything more than a general reason. If he'd come out and said "The Impacts from the planes damaged the structure so that around 30% of the steel coloumns were seriously damaged or destroyed. Add to that large chunks of fire-proofing were removed from the trusses causing them to weaken in the fires and sag, pulling in the exterior columns until they gave way" then you might have a point. As it is, he didn't he made a general claim that the impact of the planes and the heat of the fire damaged to the towers so they fell. Who didn't realise that after they had fallen? Besides knowing what happened is different o knowing why it happened. If you saw a plane flip over and crash, you could say well the "pilot lost control and the plane went into an inverted dive and crashed" but that doesn't tell you why it crashed, and Hauer's statement on 9/11 doesn't tell you why the impact damage and heat cause the towers to collapse, NIST spent those 3 years working that out.

And he didn't even need a video taped confession to know UBL was behind it.

Nor did all the other Media, and even people inside the towers. Most people were suspecting Islamic extremeists and guess what, after blowing up the USS Cole a year eariler OBL was the most likely target. Plenty of reporters and others were saying it, and since he'd been discussing the subject the previous night, it's even more likely he had OBL spring to mind. Again you are artibuting thing to him as if he was the only one that knew them, yet the evidence is that a lot of other people were all thinking exactly the same thing.

I guess Whoopie is what the anthrax victims would have said if someone had been kind enough to warn them.

Well if he was warning people, why warn the west wing which wasn't attacked, and not warn those that were?

They gave a presentation together called Building a 'Biobomb': The Terrorist Challenge on May 28, 1998 at a CFR conference. That would have been at the UN. You know the same place they found the nerve gas?

Woo, they did a presentation together, that proves they were collegues, which we already knew, you still haven't proved they were friends.

How do you know they asked him? He could of just offered it up cause he’s just that kind of guy.

Ummm, how about because they called him an ABC Consultant. Get it, consultant, one who gets consulted? Any of this making sense to you?

[negativ]

I'm glad to hear that the luminaries at the UN are safe. Humanity would surely revert to the dark ages without their guiding light.

[uk_dave]

Wow and all those years and wasted tax dollars on NIST and all anyone had to do is ask Jerry Hauer or you. And he didn't even need a video taped confession to know UBL was behind it.



Wow. You really think people who watched the towers come down on 911 just sat there and thought ....

"Hmmmmm plane crash and fire couldn't have done that, must have been bombs inside"

...eh? Wasn't until those expensive NIST people came along that anyone outside of the gubmint began to believe that it was JUST the plane crashes and fire wot dun it? Seriously? I mean, really, really seriously?

Anyway, since you have an actual name of an actual suspect....what're you doing about it? Some of our resident 'truthers' run away from the idea of actually doing something in the real world because they claim not to know WHO was responsible, just that it wasn't 'arabs in caves'. But you have this Jerome Hauer guy in your sights.

Please do tell what action you are taking beyond posting on the internet, for the sake of justice?

[funk de fino]

Really? So these same inspectors who couldn’t find WMD's in Iraq also didn't know there was nerve gas right under someone’s desk in the UN for how many years now? Classically comical. But I guess that's your story and your sticking to it huh? Good for you.

How come I know so much or just more then you? Just because I've heard of him before and you haven't doesn't mean I'm the only one.

How many times do you need to be told it is not a nerve gas?

Do you mean to repeat untruths?

[uk_dave]

Tell you what, Zen, why don't you make a public announcement of your suspicions regarding Mr Hauer, under your full name and on a website owned and operated by you.

Invite him to sue.

Then you get your day in court, free of charge (you can defend yourself) and you can have your evidence considered by a jury of your peers.

How about it? Why not test this?

[funk de fino]

Yeah you're right. It's not like they have a public relations department or something.



Hey buddy? Try to read that OP when you get the chance will ya?

Nerve Gas Scare at U.N. Headquarters
August 30, 2007 12:01 PM
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/...gas-scare.html
United Nations weapons inspectors discovered six to eight vials of a dangerous nerve gas, phosgene, as they were cleaning out offices at a U.N. building in New York this morning, federal authorities tell the Blotter on ABCNews.com.

I guess you failed to go back and read your own link in your OP?

It does not say "nerve gas" it has been changed to "chemical agent"

How embarrassing for you:rolleyes:

[jaydeehess]

At what point will Zen get around to laying out just what the conspiracy here is and who did exactly what?

So far all that has been brought up is a lot of nudge-nudge innuendo and (as noted above) eyebrow arching.

[Hellbound]

At what point will Zen get around to laying out just what the conspiracy here is and who did exactly what?

So far all that has been brought up is a lot of nudge-nudge innuendo and (as noted above) eyebrow arching.

So how is that any different from everything else the "truth" movement has?

[ZENSMACK89]

And why is that strange? He's qualified to speak on those sort of issues, why wouldn't TV stations go to him for sound bites? When we have a rugby story over here they often go to ex-All Blacks and talk to them. Political stories get comments by ex-politicians and so on. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Like I point to it seems everyday there are less and less and people qualified to comment on these types of issues.

Except for the fact that Jerry Hauer didn't give the exact reason that NIST did for the collapse, even by your own quote he isn't giving anything more than a general reason.

Actually this was Rather’s exact question…
Dan Rather:”Based on what you know, and I recognize we’re dealing with so few facts, is it possible that just a plane crash could have collapsed these buildings, or would it have required the, sort of, prior positioning of other explosives in the, uh, in the buildings? I mean, what do you think?”

Jerome Hauer: “No, I, uh, my sense is just the velocity of the plane and the fact that you have a plane filled with fuel hitting that building, uh, that burned, uh, the velocity of that plane, uh, certainly, uh, uh, had an impact on the structure itself, and then the fact that it burned and you had that intense heat, uh, probably weakened the structure as well, uh, and I think it, uh, was, uh, simply the, uh, the planes hitting the buildings, and, and causing the collapse.”

Nor did all the other Media, and even people inside the towers. Most people were suspecting Islamic extremeists and guess what, after blowing up the USS Cole a year eariler OBL was the most likely target.

No actually people were less apt to automatically blame Islamic terrorist because that’s the conclusion everyone jumped to after Okalahoma City. Not Jerry though. He seemed pretty confident. Rather’s question was whether or not it was state sponsored and again Hauer directs it away…

Dan Rather: “What perspective can you give us? I mean, there have been these repeated reports that, well, yes, Osama Bin Laden, but some think he’s been over-emphasized as, as responsible for these kinds of events. I know many intelligence, uh, people at very high levels who say, listen, you can’t have these kinds of attacks without having some state, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, somebody involved. Put that into perspective for us.”
Jerome Hauer: “eah, well I’m not sure I agree that, umm, this is necessarily state-sponsored. Umm, it, as I mentioned earlier, certainly has, umm, the, uh, fingerprints of somebody like Bin Laden.”

Well if he was warning people, why warn the west wing which wasn't attacked, and not warn those that were?

I don’t know. Why not warn everyone?

Woo, they did a presentation together, that proves they were collegues, which we already knew, you still haven't proved they were friends.

Yes colleagues would be a better term. You’re not really getting me on this. I wouldn’t say they were drinking buddies just that they had a long time association. In fact when it came back that the Anthrax was probably from one of our own Gov Labs and not from Iraq it was probably Hauer who put the finger on Hatfill.

Ummm, how about because they called him an ABC Consultant. Get it, consultant, one who gets consulted? Any of this making sense to you?

How about like I said? He keeps a close connection to the press to direct the story. See? It’s not even nerve gas anymore. It’s not even a story anymore. Just like the Anthrax investigation.

[ZENSMACK89]

Tell you what, Zen, why don't you make a public announcement of your suspicions regarding Mr Hauer, under your full name and on a website owned and operated by you.

Invite him to sue.

Then you get your day in court, free of charge (you can defend yourself) and you can have your evidence considered by a jury of your peers.

How about it? Why not test this?
Sue me for what? Pointing to the news?

[ZENSMACK89]

I guess you failed to go back and read your own link in your OP?

It does not say "nerve gas" it has been changed to "chemical agent"

How embarrassing for you:rolleyes:
Yeah real embarrasing they're spinning the story. Not like anything I claimed they would do.

[johnny karate]

Yeah real embarrasing they're spinning the story. Not like anything I claimed they would do.

Holy crap, he's right! Not only has the NWO-controlled Media conspired to cover up the the murder of 3,000 American citizens by its own government,
Rule 12 snippage

Of course, this is just one small part of their master plan to... uh... wait, what was the point of all this again?

The point is rule 12.

[afinemadness]

Actually this was Rather’s exact question…
Dan Rather:”Based on what you know, and I recognize we’re dealing with so few facts, is it possible that just a plane crash could have collapsed these buildings, or would it have required the, sort of, prior positioning of other explosives in the, uh, in the buildings? I mean, what do you think?”

Jerome Hauer: “No, I, uh, my sense is just the velocity of the plane and the fact that you have a plane filled with fuel hitting that building, uh, that burned, uh, the velocity of that plane, uh, certainly, uh, uh, had an impact on the structure itself, and then the fact that it burned and you had that intense heat, uh, probably weakened the structure as well, uh, and I think it, uh, was, uh, simply the, uh, the planes hitting the buildings, and, and causing the collapse.”




Dan Rather: “What perspective can you give us? I mean, there have been these repeated reports that, well, yes, Osama Bin Laden, but some think he’s been over-emphasized as, as responsible for these kinds of events. I know many intelligence, uh, people at very high levels who say, listen, you can’t have these kinds of attacks without having some state, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, somebody involved. Put that into perspective for us.”
Jerome Hauer: “eah, well I’m not sure I agree that, umm, this is necessarily state-sponsored. Umm, it, as I mentioned earlier, certainly has, umm, the, uh, fingerprints of somebody like Bin Laden.”



Did you actually read the quotes? They seem to me to be someone making an educated guess. He says that it was probably speed and fuel for the collapse. He then says that it does not have to be state sponsored terrorism but could instead be someone like Bin Laden

[ZENSMACK89]

Wow. You really think people who watched the towers come down on 911 just sat there and thought ....

"Hmmmmm plane crash and fire couldn't have done that, must have been bombs inside"


Yes as a matter of fact that's exactly what Rather implied in his question as well as almost every other witness and newscaster did...

"or would it have required the, sort of, prior positioning of other explosives in the, uh, in the buildings?"

[ZENSMACK89]

Did you actually read the quotes? They seem to me to be someone making an educated guess. He says that it was probably speed and fuel for the collapse. He then says that it does not have to be state sponsored terrorism but could instead be someone like Bin Laden
Yes, did you? He always makes good guesses doesn't he?

[ktesibios]

Yeah real embarrasing they're spinning the story. Not like anything I claimed they would do.

Kindly read the cut-n-pastage from your own OP:

Nerve Gas Scare at U.N. Headquarters
August 30, 2007 12:01 PM
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/08/nerve-gas-scare.html
United Nations weapons inspectors discovered six to eight vials of a dangerous nerve gas, phosgene, as they were cleaning out offices at a U.N. building in New York this morning, federal authorities tell the Blotter on ABCNews.com.


If you read the comments to that article, you'll see that perhaps a dozen people corrected their erroneous description of phosgene as a nerve gas.

This is not a case of ABC News spinning anything. This is a case of their correcting the scientific illiteracy of one of their reporters. It might have been better form to leave the article in its original form and add a correction, as print media have always had to do, but it is never spin to get one's basic technical facts straight.

Ain't nobody spinning anything here except ZENSMACK.

[ZENSMACK89]

Kindly read the cut-n-pastage from your own OP:



If you read the comments to that article, you'll see that perhaps a dozen people corrected their erroneous description of phosgene as a nerve gas.

This is not a case of ABC News spinning anything. This is a case of their correcting the scientific illiteracy of one of their reporters. It might have been better form to leave the article in its original form and add a correction, as print media have always had to do, but it is never spin to get one's basic technical facts straight.

Ain't nobody spinning anything here except ZENSMACK.
Is it a poisonous gas used in weapons? Yes or no? So if they take the word nerve out of it does that mean it's harmless all of a sudden?

This is what someone wrote ABC to point out their error.

"Your headline represents a significant factual error. Phosgene is a choking agent that interferes with lung function (as the article gets to eventually), not a nerve agent."

Oh well then that just makes all the difference in the world now doesn't it? That just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Nothing to worry about there. Just causes a little choking no big deal. Who needs their lungs anyway?

[Viper Daimao]

Is it that hard to concede a point?

[Hellbound]

Talk about strawmen :)

ZEN, you are the straw master.

[Par]

That just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.


It might do, actually.

[funk de fino]

Yeah real embarrasing they're spinning the story. Not like anything I claimed they would do.

No, they are just correcting erroneous reports, it was already corrected before you said to someone else to go and look at it, you were being arsey about it and you had not even checked yourself if it had been changed, good work

It has always said Phosgene but phosgene is not a nerve agent so how is that possibly spinning something?

A nerve agent is a whole different ball game than a choking agent, that agent would probably not do a lot of harm in that condition and that amount whereas that amount of nerve agent would most likely kill thousands

Foot in mouth, jumping the gun again and not reading things properly when trying to be smug

[Hellbound]

funk de fino:

Actually, that amount of nerve agent, in vials, wouldn't be that dangerous to anyone outside the room. At least modern nerve agents. They need to be dispersed to be effective (which IIRC is one of the reasons the Japan subway attacks did so little), and breaking a vial wouldn't do that. Of course, the phosgene wouldn't do much like that, either.

Oddly enough, having been a medic in the military and studied various chemical and bilogical agents, the nerve agents don't scare me that much anymore. They aren't as deadly as everyone assumes (but don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean I want any in my neighborhood) and it takes specific conditions and procedures to make them a useful or effective weapon.

*back to general comments*In any case, the main point is how little certain posters do to actually fact-check their information, and how, even when informed of error, simply insist that they are right without even looking into the matter. And, of course, even after having his face rubbed in the feces of falsity he laid on the carpet of truth, still insists that he never piddled anywhere off the newspapers.

Now back to our regularly scheduled tap dancing ;)

[Viper Daimao]

Oh well then that just makes all the difference in the world now doesn't it?


It actually does make all the difference, or would if we knew exactly what you are trying to insinuate. For instance, if you're trying to say these weapons were planted there to be used as an attack, then a nerve agent would have killed many people, while Phosgene possibly would not have killed anyone. But really I don't think anyone has any idea what you're trying to say here.

[ZENSMACK89]

Is it that hard to concede a point?
Yes I concede that it's not nerve gas.

I would also like to take this time to note that for whatever its worth I would rather get shot with a bazooka then blown up by an IED. Just my personal preference is all.

I just don’t thing it’s worth much. After I’m dead that is.

[ponderingturtle]

"Apparently UN weapons inspectors had collected these vials years back, they found them in Iraq back in 1996. They had been stored in this building, they are closing down that building, as they were going through boxes they came across this chemical agent. It could have been pretty disastrous if indeed one was broken or if this agent, this chemical agent was released from these vials..." CNN Live

Look on the bright side, someone finialy found some Iraqi weapons of mass distruction in NYC no less. So it shows that Iraq was working with the UN and not Al Qaeda

[Hellbound]

Yes I concede that it's not nerve gas.

I would also like to take this time to note that for whatever its worth I would rather get shot with a bazooka then blown up by an IED. Just my personal preference is all.

I just don’t thing it’s worth much. After I’m dead that is.

Well, with your alternative you'd definately be dead.

The phosgene, in vials as it were, would probably not kill you (assuming you don't intentionally spil the stuff all over you and pour it down your throat, but say, simply dropped and shattered a vial).

Thank you, however, for confirming your suspected ignorance of chemical weapons and their effects :)

[afinemadness]

Yes, did you? He always makes good guesses doesn't he?

It was not rocket science. I was in a building with no TV all we had was the web and phone calls from the outside and we came to pretty much the same conclusions. I can not say we named Bin Laden by specifically but we may have. It is tough to be positive after all this time as to the exact time of each realization. We did however have a good idea about the buildings.

[ZENSMACK89]

Well, with your alternative you'd definately be dead.

The phosgene, in vials as it were, would probably not kill you (assuming you don't intentionally spil the stuff all over you and pour it down your throat, but say, simply dropped and shattered a vial).

Thank you, however, for confirming your suspected ignorance of chemical weapons and their effects :)
Thanks for making my point of trying to down play the harmful effects of phosgene. After all if it doesn't kill you right away, which it is very capable of doing, all you'll have to deal with is some breathing problems. No big deal.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/30/un.gas/?iref=mpstoryview
Suspected chemical weapons found at U.N. office
UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- Workers found vials believed to contain the poison gas phosgene at a U.N. office building in New York, U.N. officials said Thursday.

Yet they still included this one sentence paragraph in the middle of the article.

"Phosgene was used extensively during World War I as a choking agent and caused a majority of the war's gas deaths, according to the CDC."

Is it poison?

Is it a weapon?

Was it suppose to be there?

[dudalb]

Give it up,guy.
There was no Conspiracy.
Somebody at the UN messed up and improperly stored some sample taken from a gas weapon. That is it.No big time evil conspiracy.
Once again you show one of the CT's more interesting stupidities:There insistance on making a huge conspiracy out of an event before the facts are known.

[uk_dave]

Sue me for what? Pointing to the news?

Is that what you're doing?

I thought you had this guy pegged as a suspect.

Oh well, move along, nothing to see here then, just another pointless 'truther' waste of people's time.

[geni]

"Phosgene was used extensively during World War I as a choking agent and caused a majority of the war's gas deaths, according to the CDC."


That would be because of the scale of deployment and issues with the other gasses used.


Is it poison?


Sure


Is it a weapon?


It can be. Has a fair number of other uses.


Was it suppose to be there?

Hard to say. The person who put it there probable meant it to be there. If putting it there was within regulations is another matter.

[ZENSMACK89]

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0208/S00068.htm

"Hauer is still trying to save the world.

On November 6th, 2001 he participated in the "Independent Task Force on America's Response to Terrorism" at the CFR. Participants there included James J. Zogby (President of the Arab American Institute and Central Asian Enterprise Fund), Newton L. Gingrich (Chief Executive Officer, The Gingrich Group), Harold Brown (former secretary of defense and counselor at CSIS: the Center for Strategic and International Studies), Henry A. Kissinger (Senior Fellow in National Security and European Affairs), Richard C. Holbrooke (Counselor, CFR and Vice Chairman of Perseus, LLC) and Philip A. Odeen (Executive Vice President, Washington Operations of TRW, Inc. and CEO of Reynolds + Reynolds, Dayton).

Their agenda, eight weeks after the attack of Sept. 11, was strange indeed:"

http://www.cfr.org/publication/4215/improving_the_us_public_diplomacy_campaign_in_the_ war_against_terrorism.html?excerpt=1#author

"....Release a White Paper explaining our goals and rationale for the war in Afghanistan, and outlining the evidence that the al-Qa'eda network was responsible for the 9/11 attacks....

...Disseminate stories of particular victims to convey the range of people killed in the 9/11 attacks-stress range of religions, races, income levels, etc...

...counteract myth that Mossad was behind the attacks by showing Jews killed, etc...

...Routinely monitor the regional press in real time to enable prompt responses...""

[Viper Daimao]

Why is any of that strange?

[ZENSMACK89]

Why is any of that strange?
That's part of the article I posted. I'm pointing to Hauer's habit of commenting on these stories in real time and a possible reason for being a consultent for the news networks is to enable him to do this. Thus the part I bolded.

"...Routinely monitor the regional press in real time to enable prompt responses...""

[Sabrina]

That's common sense for any agency or person who might at one point or another be in the public eye for whatever reason. Why does it surprise you?

[dudalb]

It would'nt be a conspiracy theory without the CFR coming in somewhere.....

[geni]

That's part of the article I posted. I'm pointing to Hauer's habit of commenting on these stories in real time and a possible reason for being a consultent for the news networks is to enable him to do this. Thus the part I bolded.

"...Routinely monitor the regional press in real time to enable prompt responses...""

ABC are hardly regional.

When a story appears suddenly or even not so suddenly news agencies are going to fall back on getting quotes from people they know they can contact and get quotes from and depending on what they want can perform on TV/Radio

[Viper Daimao]

And why is that part strange? They were for the war, and wanted to present their case for it. They also wanted to keep track of the new cycle to try to counter any urban legends like "the mossad was behind 9/11" (remember a lie makes it around the world before the truth has even put on it's shoes).

I still just do not see where you're going with this nor the coherency of any of it.

[ZENSMACK89]

Strange? Not for them. Just another campaign to push a message that many here are always claiming should be obvious to everyone. Did they need to bother? How come?

Now tell me... does Jerome Hauer have a history of involvement with monitoring the press and controlling the message?

Let’s see now. So far we have 9-11 security, Bio-Weapons and vaccines, military contractors, the CFR, propaganda and manipulation of the press...

This guy has got his hand in everything. A couple more people as talented as him and there goes that theory that a 9-11 inside job would have had to involve thousands of people.

[rwguinn]

ABC consultant Jerry Hauer.



Is he a consultant for ABC?




yes, he said that the momentum of the planes damaged the structure and started fires that caused the stell to give way. Big deal SO DID 90% OF THE PEOPLE ON THE PLANET! He made a statement that was so obvious a blind man's seeing eye dog could have told you it.



Whoopie, he advised the White House staff to take the best known general antibotic during a time that the US was under attack. What an amazing idea, I mean who could possibly think that when the country was under attack that it might be a good idea for the leaders to protect themselves against the possiblity of Biological attacks as well. Totally Inconceivable.



Other than that they worked togther, where is the evidence they were friends?



So when ABC asked him to comment as their consultant he should have said nothing?

edit to add: man you are a total poster boy for paranoids are us.

Yeah apparently he does a lot of that. Rather was CBS.
Reading comprehension 101:.
You asked (paraphrased) Why former manager--doesn't NYC have one now?
Phantom wolf asked if he was (also) an ABC consultant.
Your response is yes. Evidenece, please, that the current director of pub safety for NYC is also a consultant for ABC,NBC,CBS, FOX, or whatever.

[beachnut]

Thanks for making my point of trying to down play the harmful effects of phosgene. After all if it doesn't kill you right away, which it is very capable of doing, all you'll have to deal with is some breathing problems. No big deal.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/30/un.gas/?iref=mpstoryview
Suspected chemical weapons found at U.N. office
UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- Workers found vials believed to contain the poison gas phosgene at a U.N. office building in New York, U.N. officials said Thursday.

Yet they still included this one sentence paragraph in the middle of the article.

"Phosgene was used extensively during World War I as a choking agent and caused a majority of the war's gas deaths, according to the CDC."

Is it poison?

Is it a weapon?

Was it suppose to be there?
Do you ever answer you own questions? This post sounds like a 3 year old needing attention.

Do you have a point, and are you going to tie your random posts into a coherent story?

[Viper Daimao]

Strange? Not for them. Just another campaign to push a message that many here are always claiming should be obvious to everyone. Did they need to bother? How come?

Now tell me... does Jerome Hauer have a history of involvement with monitoring the press and controlling the message?

Let’s see now. So far we have 9-11 security, Bio-Weapons and vaccines, military contractors, the CFR, propaganda and manipulation of the press...

This guy has got his hand in everything. A couple more people as talented as him and there goes that theory that a 9-11 inside job would have had to involve thousands of people.

where are you making up manipulation of the press and propaganda?

[ZENSMACK89]

where are you making up manipulation of the press and propaganda?

I don't know what you call it but yes I call it propaganda.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/4215/improving_the_us_public_diplomacy_campaign_in_the_ war_against_terrorism.html

[Regnad Kcin]

...This guy has got his hand in everything. A couple more people as talented as him and there goes that theory that a 9-11 inside job would have had to involve thousands of people.Er, not so fast. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2886507&postcount=1517)

[johnny karate]

This guy has got his hand in everything. A couple more people as talented as him and there goes that theory that a 9-11 inside job would have had to involve thousands of people.

Not unless Hauer and this imaginary team of elite media control ninjas also wired WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 for controlled demolition, made sure every single scrap of physical evidence was removed, and successfully threatened or bribed into silence every single eye witness, first responder, and qualified expert.

And how "talented" is this guy at what you are alleging if all it takes to see behind the curtain is the ability to google his name?

Once again, we are presented with a vast conspiracy that is both mind-boggling complex and well-orchestrated enough to fool the entire world on live television, yet so sloppy and obvious that teenagers with access to the Interent are able to break it wide open.

Way to go, slick! Keep up the good work!

[ZENSMACK89]

Er, not so fast. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2886507&postcount=1517)
And?

That's just your version and even your version doesn't necessarily have to involve thousands of people in the know.

[Viper Daimao]

I don't know what you call it but yes I call it propaganda.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/4215/improving_the_us_public_diplomacy_campaign_in_the_ war_against_terrorism.html

Is there something sinister about arguing your side of an issue? Wouldn't your definition make everything the truther movement has done propaganda?

[ZENSMACK89]

Not unless Hauer and this imaginary team of elite media control ninjas also wired WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 for controlled demolition, made sure every single scrap of physical evidence was removed, and successfully threatened or bribed into silence every single eye witness, first responder, and qualified expert.

People behind companies like Kroll, Defense Sytems limited, and Raytheon, could have pulled it off.

And how "talented" is this guy at what you are alleging if all it takes to see behind the curtain is the ability to google his name?


Yeah that's right. For a guy so involved in all of this stuff everyone here knew about him before I brought him up. He's famous right?

Once again, we are presented with a vast conspiracy that is both mind-boggling complex and well-orchestrated enough to fool the entire world on live television, yet so sloppy and obvious that teenagers with access to the Interent are able to break it wide open.


What teenagers would that be?

Way to go, slick! Keep up the good work

You're welcome. Let me know if I can fill you in on anything else you don't know about.

[ZENSMACK89]

Is there something sinister about arguing your side of an issue? Wouldn't your definition make everything the truther movement has done propaganda?
Is there more then one definition of propaganda? It is what it is. Paint it any way you like.

[Par]

Is there more then one definition of propaganda? It is what it is. Paint it any way you like.


Black?

[CptColumbo]

Is there more then one definition of propaganda? It is what it is. Paint it any way you like.

prop·a·gan·da Pronunciation[prop-uh-gan-duh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun
1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.
4. Roman Catholic Church.
a. a committee of cardinals, established in 1622 by Pope Gregory XV, having supervision over foreign missions and the training of priests for these missions.
b. a school (College of Propaganda) established by Pope Urban VIII for the education of priests for foreign missions.
5. Archaic. an organization or movement for the spreading of propaganda.

Invest in a dictionary.

[johnny karate]

People behind companies like Kroll, Defense Sytems limited, and Raytheon, could have pulled it off.Please clarify this answer in detail. And don't forget to include the part that explains how all of this was done with absolutely no witnesses and without a single internal leak.

Yeah that's right. For a guy so involved in all of this stuff everyone here knew about him before I brought him up. He's famous right?No one suggested he was famous. I merely pointed out that all it took for you deduce he was a player in this massive yet shoddily-hidden conspiracy was for you to have the ability to read his name, and then remember reading his name when you see it again. But you're probably right. It's not that the conspirators turned sloppy and stupid the minute after they executed the greatest con job in history, it's just that ZENSMACK89 Internet Super Sleuth is just that good.


What teenagers would that be?If you're implying that you're an adult, I can't express how much that saddens and frightens me.

[Viper Daimao]

Invest in a dictionary.

Then I'd say they were involved in definition #1, which you should note says nothing about the info not being true, nor for nefarious purposes. While the truther movement is involved with def #3.

[Hellbound]

Just for ZEN:

http://hazard.com/msds/mf/cards/file/0007.html

Just something I'd like to point out here:
"The symptoms of lung oedema often do not become manifest until a few hours have passed and they are aggravated by physical effort. Rest and medical observation is therefore essential. Immediate administration of an appropriate spray, by a doctor or a person authorized by him/her, should be considered. The odour warning when the exposure limit value is exceeded is insufficient. Do NOT spray water on leaking cylinder (to prevent corrosion of cylinder). Turn leaking cylinder with the leak up to prevent escape of gas in liquid state."

In other word,s you got a few hours to get treatment after you've been exposed. Permanent lung damage is generally only seen with severe exposure or long term exposure. There is a counteragent. In fact, the delayed onset was part of the reason it caused so many deaths in the wars.

So, yeah. IN the U.N. building, where I'm only minutes away from some of the best medical care in the U.S., I'd take phosgene over a bazooka. But that's because I react rationally, to understand and study the dangers, rather than reating emotionally in a knee-jerk manner without understanding, well, anything.

[ZENSMACK89]

Just for ZEN:

http://hazard.com/msds/mf/cards/file/0007.html

Just something I'd like to point out here:
"The symptoms of lung oedema often do not become manifest until a few hours have passed and they are aggravated by physical effort. Rest and medical observation is therefore essential. Immediate administration of an appropriate spray, by a doctor or a person authorized by him/her, should be considered. The odour warning when the exposure limit value is exceeded is insufficient. Do NOT spray water on leaking cylinder (to prevent corrosion of cylinder). Turn leaking cylinder with the leak up to prevent escape of gas in liquid state."

In other word,s you got a few hours to get treatment after you've been exposed. Permanent lung damage is generally only seen with severe exposure or long term exposure. There is a counteragent. In fact, the delayed onset was part of the reason it caused so many deaths in the wars.

So, yeah. IN the U.N. building, where I'm only minutes away from some of the best medical care in the U.S., I'd take phosgene over a bazooka. But that's because I react rationally, to understand and study the dangers, rather than reating emotionally in a knee-jerk manner without understanding, well, anything.
For Hunt

I don't believe my original comparison was between a bazooka and phosgene.

It was between a bazooka and a IED.

Now if you want to make a comparison between phosgene and nerve gas it would depend on the nerve gas and like the phosogene the amount used.

Phosgene is a dangerous. The stuff at the UN was intended for weapons.

Why the need to down play it?

[ZENSMACK89]

Invest in a dictionary.
Propaganda [from modern Latin: 'Propaganda Fide', literally “propagating the faith”] is a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of large numbers of people.

It applies.

[johnny karate]

Phosgene is a dangerous.Just not as dangerous as nerve gas.

The stuff at the UN was intended for weapons.But not a biological attack on the UN, because at that dosage it would have been about as an effective a biological attack as a fart in an elevator.

Why the need to down play it?Why the need to keep trying to turn this story into something it's not?

[ZENSMACK89]

Please clarify this answer in detail. And don't forget to include the part that explains how all of this was done with absolutely no witnesses and without a single internal leak.

Who said I knew the details? Why would I need to? The 9-11 commission or NIST didn't exactly come up with all the details in their theories.

No one suggested he was famous. I merely pointed out that all it took for you deduce he was a player in this massive yet shoddily-hidden conspiracy was for you to have the ability to read his name, and then remember reading his name when you see it again. But you're probably right. It's not that the conspirators turned sloppy and stupid the minute after they executed the greatest con job in history, it's just that ZENSMACK89 Internet Super Sleuth is just that good.


I did a little more then read his name. And so have others. I don't own these theories exclusively.

If you're implying that you're an adult, I can't express how much that saddens and frightens me.

Now who's showing their maturity or lack there of?

[Alferd_Packer]

Phosgene is a dangerous. The stuff at the UN was intended for weapons.



So Bush was right? Saddam did have a WMD program, is that what you are saying?

[ZENSMACK89]

Black?
That would work nicely.

[ZENSMACK89]

So Bush was right? Saddam did have a WMD program, is that what you are saying?
I don't know? Did he have mass quantities? When did we find this stuff? 96?

And best of all...

Who sold it to him and when?

[ZENSMACK89]

Just not as dangerous as nerve gas.?


Depends on the nerve gas.

But not a biological attack on the UN, because at that dosage it would have been about as an effective a biological attack as a fart in an elevator.

Did I say it was an attack?

Why the need to keep trying to turn this story into something it's not?

You're the one who wants details.

[pomeroo]

Depends on the nerve gas.



Did I say it was an attack?



You're the one who wants details.


In conclusion, you started a four-page thread in the Conspiracy forum that relates to no discernible conspiracy.

[Alferd_Packer]

I don't know? Did he have mass quantities? When did we find this stuff? 96?

Does it matter?

He was evading sanctions even back then.



And best of all...

Who sold it to him and when?

Er, it's not that hard to make.

Arabs aren't exactly cave dwelling idiots, you know.

[johnny karate]

Who said I knew the details? Why would I need to?


You made the following statement:

People behind companies like Kroll, Defense Sytems limited, and Raytheon, could have pulled it off.

If you can't offer an explanation how they could have pulled it off, then what is your basis for making that claim in the first place?


The 9-11 commission or NIST didn't exactly come up with all the details in their theories.Exactly what details do you feel were missing?

And even if there were some details missing, they at the very least have offered several thousand pages of details towards an explanation. So far, you have offered none.


I did a little more then read his name.I know. You also remembered having read it when you saw it again. That's what makes you an Internet Super Sleuth!


And so have others. I don't own these theories exclusively.Do any of them have evidence?

[johnny karate]

In conclusion, you started a four-page thread in the Conspiracy forum that relates to no discernible conspiracy.

You think that's bad? They have whole websites and even movies that amount to the same thing.

[ZENSMACK89]

Does it matter?

Yes it matters or not if he had it right before we invaded.

He was evading sanctions even back then.



Evading sanctions or inspections?


Er, it's not that hard to make.

So we just sold him the hard stuff to make? Well that was nice of us. Why did we want it back?

Arabs aren't exactly cave dwelling idiots, you know.

I didn't say anything about cave dwellers. That would be the official version of 9-11.

[jaydeehess]

I didn't say anything about cave dwellers. That would be the official version of 9-11.


Um, no. The 'official' line is that from their bases in Afghanistan some operatives of AQ came up with the idea for the 911 attacks. The go-ahead was given to do so and financing set up, and individuals chosen for the attacks. Those individuals then went to the USA to train and wait for the time of the attacks. While living in the USA no one at all was doing so in a cave. The financing was routed through Europe, again, no caves.


Now getting back to the OP.

Will you now put down for us exactly what it is that this is supposed to be a conspiracy to perform, please?

So far all I get is that one guy at least peripherally involved is supposed by you to have discovered or planted a few small vials of phosgene that do not have enough potency to have caused even one or two deaths let alone many, and he also made sure that the news media blew the danger out of proportion in order to instill fear in the general public and perhaps to show that Iraq had WMD.

Am I close?

[funk de fino]

Depends on the nerve gas.




No, it does not

[ZENSMACK89]

Um, no. The 'official' line is that from their bases in Afghanistan some operatives of AQ came up with the idea for the 911 attacks. The go-ahead was given to do so and financing set up, and individuals chosen for the attacks. Those individuals then went to the USA to train and wait for the time of the attacks. While living in the USA no one at all was doing so in a cave. The financing was routed through Europe, again, no caves.


Really. I though Osama was in a cave. Where were they looking for him? What was all that talk about "smoking them out of their holes"? Who lives in holes?


Now getting back to the OP.


I'd love to.

Will you now put down for us exactly what it is that this is supposed to be a conspiracy to perform, please?


Dismantling of the constitution and war profiting.

So far all I get is that one guy at least peripherally involved is supposed by you to have discovered or planted a few small vials of phosgene that do not have enough potency to have caused even one or two deaths let alone many, and he also made sure that the news media blew the danger out of proportion in order to instill fear in the general public and perhaps to show that Iraq had WMD.

Am I close?


Close to what? Did I say all that?

[ZENSMACK89]

No, it does not
Ok. Is it always lethal? Is there no antidote?

[geni]

I don't know? Did he have mass quantities? When did we find this stuff? 96?

And best of all...

Who sold it to him and when?

I doubt anyone did. Not really the kind of thing you want to ship around more than you have to so was probably made localy. Not hard. I could do it with the right kit and raw materials which is mostly off the shelf stuff. Actualy My degree covered the theory behind it's systhersis as an example for some thermodynamic stuff.

[NYCEMT86]

"former New York City emergency services director Jerry Hauer"

What's the matter doesn't NYC have a present emergency services director to ask?


It's common place for News Corporations to hire people with expertise to gain an insight on how things operate in certain circumstances and their professional and independant opinion. They are called consultants or Analysts.


To name a few:

General Norman Schwarzkopf, (ret.) US ARMY - NBC Consultant

Chuck Todd - NBC Political Consultant

LT. COL. Robert Maginnis (RET.), U.S. ARMY - CNN Analyst

Ken Pollack, former National Security Council member during the Clinton administration - CNN Analyst



As for the OEM Commissioner Bruno, he is a very busy man. In NYC we follow a strict Incident Command System. Commissioner Bruno doesn't speak directly to the press unless he needs to, usually they assign a public information officer. With an incident like this, they wait till all information is gathered to release a press release or set up a quick press conference. The UN is separate from the NYC, so they may hold a conference or release information before the OEM.

[CptColumbo]

It's common place for News Corporations to hire people with expertise to gain an insight on how things operate in certain circumstances and their professional and independant opinion. They are called consultants or Analysts.


To name a few:

General Norman Schwarzkopf, (ret.) US ARMY - NBC Consultant

Chuck Todd - NBC Political Consultant

LT. COL. Robert Maginnis (RET.), U.S. ARMY - CNN Analyst

Ken Pollack, former National Security Council member during the Clinton administration - CNN Analyst

Imagine using someone with expertise and experience in a given field to consult with. What will they think of next?

[geni]

Ok. Is it always lethal?

Depends on how much you breath in.


Is there no antidote?

No more than there is for chlorine. Basicaly it reacts to form acid in your lungs. Problem is it may take a while for you to notice and by then too late. By comparison if you breath in acid fumes directly it hurts enough that you move away quickly.

[Sabrina]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I move this thread be moved to the Current Events forum, since ZENSMACK has yet to point out what he thinks the conspiracy is.

[johnny karate]

Seconded.

[ZENSMACK89]

You made the following statement:

"If you can't offer an explanation how they could have pulled it off, then what is your basis for making that claim in the first place?"

They had available resources to pull it off.

Exactly what details do you feel were missing?

NIST is just a highly speculative theory of collapse initiation (that is if it's not just totally conscience bull) and nothing on the collapse itself.

The 9-11 commission is just another CT involving 19 Ghosts. I as I'm sure the FBI do would have like to see the missing hard evidence to get an indictment of UBL.

And even if there were some details missing,

Do you doubt? How come?

they at the very least have offered several thousand pages of details towards an explanation. So far, you have offered none.

Really? I though someone once told me on that other thread it's not quantity but quality. Was that you?

I know. You also remembered having read it when you saw it again. That's what makes you an Internet Super Sleuth!


Ah shucks… I couldn’t have done it without all the others who have noticed him.

Do any of them have evidence?

Just as much as any version you believe.

[ZENSMACK89]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I move this thread be moved to the Current Events forum, since ZENSMACK has yet to point out what he thinks the conspiracy is.
I've pointed out several. Are you still working out the difference between correspondent and consultant?

[ZENSMACK89]

Imagine using someone with expertise and experience in a given field to consult with. What will they think of next?
Imagine letting someone direct the story poised as a consultant.

[NYCEMT86]

Zen, you claimed that Hauer would be in the middle of this incident. From what I have seen and researched, he only represented himself on ABC News as consultant. No other news organization has brought up him nor referred to him for information.

[ZENSMACK89]

Zen, you claimed that Hauer would be in the middle of this incident. From what I have seen and researched, he only represented himself on ABC News as consultant. No other news organization has brought up him nor referred to him for information.
In the middle of what incident? I didn't claim this was thee incident.

BTW On 9-11 he was consulting Dan Rather and CBS.

I believe if we are attacked again it will be biological attack. Hauer is director of emergentbiosolutions which was once Bioport. He has invested and lobbied hard for an Anthrax vaccine stockpile. This is a guy who is batting a 1000 and doesn't think that a large need for BioThrax® in the near future is a gamble.

http://investors.emergentbiosolutions.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=202582&p=irol-emergentbio&ID=158309

[Corsair 115]

Well, after reading this thread, my first impression is that ZENSMACK89 reminds me an awful lot of mjd1982 — both exhibit a bulldog-like tenacity in sticking to their points no matter how much or how often those points are demonstrated to be incomplete or in error.

[NYCEMT86]

You mean if someone lobbies for precautionary action it is a sign of knowledge of the next attack?


The FDNY has purchased and requires us to carry personal Dosimeters as a precaution. Does that mean the FDNY knows the next attack is going to be radioactive?


As a Firefighter or EMT, it is REQUIRED to be trained in WMD and Haz-Mat, since Hauer is a former OEM Commissioner, you could imagine the continuous training he would be required to take.

[ZENSMACK89]

You mean if someone lobbies for precautionary action it is a sign of knowledge of the next attack?

Well he must think there will be an attack he's invested in.

The FDNY has purchased and requires us to carry personal Dosimeters as a precaution. Does that mean the FDNY knows the next attack is going to be radioactive?

How much money and power would they get out of it?

As a Firefighter or EMT, it is REQUIRED to be trained in WMD and Haz-Mat, since Hauer is a former OEM Commissioner, you could imagine the continuous training he would be required to take.

Did I say he wasn't trained or knowledgeable?

[ZENSMACK89]

Well, after reading this thread, my first impression is that ZENSMACK89 reminds me an awful lot of mjd1982 — both exhibit a bulldog-like tenacity in sticking to their points no matter how much or how often those points are demonstrated to be incomplete or in error.

You're just making a first impression of me now?

And I thought you were already one of my stalkers.

[NYCEMT86]

Well he must think there will be an attack he's invested in.

He isn't the only person who has invested in this. First Responders all over the US have as well. Like I said, we think there will be an attack, we drop millions upon millions for Equipment, Training, Apparatus, etc.


How much money and power would they get out of it?

Well the tax payers money wouldn't go to waste. Eh they already control the Five boroughs so I am sure they would want Long Island and Westchester.


Did I say he wasn't trained or knowledgeable?

But you question his decisions. We have been attacked one before, why not use that professional knowledge to help protect the administration, congress, and the senate? We built bunkers for these people back during the cold war in case of a nuclear fallout. Many companies invested into the Department of Defense.

[ZENSMACK89]

He isn't the only person who has invested in this. First Responders all over the US have as well. Like I said, we think there will be an attack, we drop millions upon millions for Equipment, Training, Apparatus, etc.



Well the tax payers money wouldn't go to waste. Eh they already control the Five boroughs so I am sure they would want Long Island and Westchester.



But you question his decisions. We have been attacked one before, why not use that professional knowledge to help protect the administration, congress, and the senate? We built bunkers for these people back during the cold war in case of a nuclear fallout. Many companies invested into the Department of Defense.
Yes but he has a personal financial interest in an Anthrax vaccine. If the person in the NYFD was recommending the city or federal Gov put up a bunch of money to buy something they claimed the fire fighters needed and recommended they buy it from his company isn't that a conflict of interest? How do you know how much of his intentions were for the fire fighters being well equipped or if his intentions are for his pocketbook? To further complicate it what if he also had access to causing an emergency that would warrant or expedite the need for this equipment?

And Hauer didn't protect anyone but the White House last time.

[NYCEMT86]

If the person in the NYFD was recommending the city or federal Gov put up a bunch of money to buy something they claimed the fire fighters needed and recommended they buy it from his company isn't that a conflict of interest?

Actually that has happened. The person in question was later terminated. It was an Assistant Chief I believe.


How do you know how much of his intentions were for the fire fighters being well equipped or if his intentions are for his pocketbook? To further complicate it what if he also had access to causing an emergency that would warrant or expedite the need for this equipment?

Well thats the thing about Companies that cater to First Responders and the Military...they try to make us believe that we NEED their equipment and its the best. For companies like Seagrave which supplies the city 95% of the apparatuses can make $250,000+ off each engine (pumper) and $500,000-$1,000,000 for each aerial device. Ford who makes the chassis for all the Ambulances can make $50,000+ and for the Excursions for Chiefs and Condition officers $40,000+. They make a ton of money just off the FDNY. That doesn't include the Haz-Mat trucks, Turn out gear for Firefighters and EMS, NBC Gear. Scott CBRN SCBAs (Self Contained Breathing Apparatus) They offer non CBRN regulators and they are cheaper, yet we carry CBRN regulators. MSA has a contract with the NYPD, MTA, and FDNY for CBRN Escape Hoods.


So it looks like everyone has their hand in the cookie jar. Just because he has access to any Chemical or Biological agent doesn't mean he is going to use it. We have this equipment in case of an attack of this magnitude does happen. How many people went out and bought survival kits in fear of Y2K? Its all about fear.


And Hauer didn't protect anyone but the White House last time.

Thanks for the update, I thought it was all branches.

[CptColumbo]

Ia Ward LaFrance still in business?

[ZENSMACK89]

Here's a little more of my conspiracy theory. It seems if we are attacked with a biological weapon or epidemic Jerome Hauer and emergentbiosolutions will be in a good position to be the lone saviors. You see it looks as if the potential competition has been dropping like flies.

Here’s just a couple of them and they ain’t all dropping from old age either…

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00B15F83E5E0C708EDDA80994D94044 82
V. Pasechnik, 64, Is Dead; Germ Expert Who Defected
November 23, 2001, Friday
By WOLFGANG SAXON (NYT
DISPLAYING ABSTRACT - Dr Vladimir Pasechnik, senior Soviet biologist who defected in 1989, dies at age 64

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8001/8001notw6.html
TRAGIC DEATH
January 7, 2002
STEVE RITTER
HARVARD'S WILEY FOUND DEAD
Disappearance and death of leading structural biologist is still a mystery
Don C. Wiley, 57, a harvard University biochemistry and biophysics professor and a Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) investigator, was found dead in the Mississippi River on Dec. 20, 2001. He had been missing since November.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/voices/200202/0204crime.html
James Madison U. Sophomore Charged in Alleged Murder Conspiracy
By Katie Lewis
The Breeze (James Madison U.)
02/04/2002
(U-WIRE) HARRISONBURG, Va. —Authorities believe Robert M. Schwartz, 57, a prominent biophysicist and DNA researcher, was slain in a murder bearing occult overtones.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0504-06.htm
Published on Saturday, May 4, 2002 in the Toronto Globe & Mail
Scientists' Deaths Are Under the Microscope
by Alanna Mitchell, Simon Cooper and Carolyn Abraham
Compiled by Alanna Mitchell
Eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead over the span of just five months. Some of them world leaders in developing weapons-grade biological plagues. Others the best in figuring out how to stop millions from dying because of biological weapons. Still others, experts in the theory of bioterrorism.

http://www.louisianaweekly.com/weekly/news/articlegate.pl?20020617d
The Strange Deaths Of Our Potential Saviors
By Christopher Tidmore & Sidney Arroyo
June 17, 2002
Imagine, eleven microbiologists dead over the span of just five months. Each individual on the list was the foremost in his field of either developing weapons-grade biological plagues, figuring out how to stop millions from dying of those plagues, or leading the world in expertise on the theory of bioterrorism.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=940CEFDD143EF936A15756C0A9629C8B63
Russian Scientist Dies in Ebola Accident at Former Weapons Lab
NYT
By JUDITH MILLER
Published: May 25, 2004
A Russian scientist at a former Soviet biological weapons laboratory in Siberia has died after accidentally sticking herself with a needle laced with ebola …American experts said the accident had not occurred in a lab now receiving US government or private money for research. Antonina Presnyakova, was working on an ebola vaccine, they have declined to identify who was financing the research or discuss its specific nature.

http://www.political-news.org/breaking/8158/ap-army-reopens-probe-into-mans-death.html
AP: Army Reopens Probe Into Man's Death (AP)
Thu Mar 24th 2005 at 9:51 pm ET
By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special Correspondent
Mohammad Munim al-Izmerly, 65, is the only known weapons scientist among at least 96 detainees who have died in U.S. custody in Iraq

[NYCEMT86]

Ia Ward LaFrance still in business?

Its now American LaFrance and they are affiliated with KME. I believe the reserve Rescues are LaFrance

[NYCEMT86]

Here's a little more of my conspiracy theory. It seems if we are attacked with a biological weapon or epidemic Jerome Hauer and emergentbiosolutions will be in a good position to be the lone saviors. You see it looks as if the potential competition has been dropping like flies.

<Snip>

So you believe that there are only 8 people in the world that does research in this field?

BTW:


Robert Schwartz was killed by his daughter Clara's friends. It looks they were angry at her allegations and took the law into their own hands.

"As a possible motive, Inglis wrote in a statement that Schwartz had complained her father had hit and tried to poison her and that these allegations of abuse had angered Inglis and her friends."

So unless Clara is really Hauer, I don't see a connection.

[CptColumbo]

Its now American LaFrance and they are affiliated with KME. I believe the reserve Rescues are LaFrance
I thought American was a rival to Ward LaFrance. Did they buy them out?

I'm sorry. I'm derailing.

[ZENSMACK89]

<Snip>

So you believe that there are only 8 people in the world that does research in this field?

BTW:


Robert Schwartz was killed by his daughter Clara's friends. It looks they were angry at her allegations and took the law into their own hands.

"As a possible motive, Inglis wrote in a statement that Schwartz had complained her father had hit and tried to poison her and that these allegations of abuse had angered Inglis and her friends."

So unless Clara is really Hauer, I don't see a connection.
That's just a couple of them.

This site isn't always a great source but I can't find the original article so....

http://www.rense.com/general62/microvv.htm

[NYCEMT86]

That's just a couple of them.

This site isn't always a great source but I can't find the original article so....

http://www.rense.com/general62/microvv.htm


I bookmarked the site. I will read it tomorrow, for now I am headed to my bed.

[Corsair 115]

You're just making a first impression of me now? I suggest you try reading my statement again. It does not mean what you think it means.

And I thought you were already one of my stalkers.My good sir, you flatter yourself too much!

[leftysergeant]

Rense is not just questionable. He's an active white nationalist and a master of disinfo.

Only time I ever saw him actually be right on something was when he retracted the total BS about people carrying evidence out of the Pentagon in a box with a blue tarpaulin over it.

Not that any of his other blather is any more grounded in reality.

But the, were he grounded in reality, he would know better than top promote white nationalist garbage.

He's basicly vermin.

[funk de fino]

Ok. Is it always lethal? Is there no antidote?

Nerve gas will kill you very very quickly andi a very nasty way. When you are in the military they give you 9 secs to get your mask on from the time of the warnings or you are in trouble. It also gets through your skin whereas Phosgene is breathed in and affects your lungs I believe

Phosgene does not kill you straight away and you can see it coming normally, and you can smell it,you cannot see nerve agents and you cannot smell them. It does not take much nerve agent to kill you.

You can take NAPs tablets prior to exposure for a few weeks to help build up resistance to it (they gave me bad wind when I took them). In the forces you also have atropine pens to inject yourself but it is not very efficient and even with some exposure a lot of damage is done the the victim even if they survive. The nerve gas can already have incpacitated the vitctim who is then unable to administer their own injection anyway.

By any stretch of your imagination (which is very large BTW) nerve gas is by far the more dangerous agent here, this is why phosgene was replaced by nerve gas when chemical weapons were in circulation among the powers, phosgene is a very inefficient chemical weapon, nerve gas is very efficient

[uk_dave]

This guy has got his hand in everything. A couple more people as talented as him and there goes that theory that a 9-11 inside job would have had to involve thousands of people.

You mean he planted the explosives in the towers? Faked the crash site in shanksville? Faked the attack on the Pentagon? Paid off the first responders?

Just what EXACTLY do you mean? And why won't you make any allegations against this guy under your real name?

Scared much?

[uk_dave]

I've pointed out several. Are you still working out the difference between correspondent and consultant?

So, you're not just reporting what's in the news, you're actually pointing out links between this guy and the 'conspiracy'.... but you're doing it anonymously on a forum he is probably totally unaware of.

Hmmmmmm gonna change the world?

[ZENSMACK89]

You mean he planted the explosives in the towers? Faked the crash site in shanksville? Faked the attack on the Pentagon? Paid off the first responders?

Just what EXACTLY do you mean? And why won't you make any allegations against this guy under your real name?

Scared much?
It's been alleged that if explosives were planted in the towers it would have taken weeks or months and teams of people to do it. I don't believe that but I do believe if Kroll the company Jerome Hauer was at and who were retained by the Port Authority after the first WTC attacks wanted to plant explosives in the WTC they had the expertise through associates and August 2001 acquisition Defense Systems Limited to do so and all the time in the world to do it.

[Viper Daimao]

You might want to read this (http://www.911myths.com/html/microbiologists.html) in regards to your microbiologists.

and using the KKK as a source doesn't look good on your either.

[uk_dave]

Perhaps Zen thinks this guy should also be in the frame for the 911 conspiracy, since he predicted an attack on the wtc towers by terrorists using aircraft.....


A truly chilling example of foreshadowing, The Voice of the Prophet is an interview with Rick Rescorla, the head of security for the investment firm Morgan Stanley Dean Witter. Filmed on the 44th floor of the World Trade Center in 1998, Rescorla details the future of warfare long before Osama bin Laden became America's Most Wanted.

A retired Army colonel, veteran of combat in three wars and a survivor of the 1993 bombing of the twin towers (in which he saved the lives of hundreds of Morgan Stanley employees),....


But then again, he can't really.... since he was killed during the 911 attacks

........Rescorla was killed in the WTC attacks of September 11, 2001. In this interview, Rescorla all but predicts the events that lead up to the September 11 attack and the war on terrorism that followed.


http://www.rickrescorla.com/

[Dr Adequate]

It's been alleged that if explosives were planted in the towers it would have taken weeks or months and teams of people to do it. Well of course you don't believe it --- it is, after all, true, obvious, and easy to prove with just a few seconds research.

J.L. Hudson’s in Detroit, Michigan, the tallest building ever razed, was 439 ft. (26 stories). See here (http://www.implosionworld.com/records.htm).

James Santoro of Controlled Demolition Incorporated says: "It took us 24 days with 12 people doing nothing but loading explosives…" (See here (http://www.history.com/media.do?id=most_hudsons_implosion_broadband&action=clip), where you will also find out what a real building implosion looks and sounds like.)

[ZENSMACK89]

Well of course you don't believe it --- it is, after all, true, obvious, and easy to prove with just a few seconds research.

J.L. Hudson’s in Detroit, Michigan, the tallest building ever razed, was 439 ft. (26 stories). See here (http://www.implosionworld.com/records.htm).

James Santoro of Controlled Demolition Incorporated says: "It took us 24 days with 12 people doing nothing but loading explosives…" (See here (http://www.history.com/media.do?id=most_hudsons_implosion_broadband&action=clip), where you will also find out what a real building implosion looks and sounds like.)
Yes but to believe the official version is to believe that at about 8:00 am on Sept 11th the towers stood perfectly well with no explosives in them and then about an hour later they were completely gone. It would take teams of expert’s months to rig the building to fall because supposedly it would have to be prepared exactly like a traditional CD for nothing else would work.

Except 10 hijackers, a plane each with half tanks of fuel into the upper floors of the towers, and one hour. This is the only thing that could have knocked down the towers in an hour and these hijackers figured it out or just got extremely lucky and more then they bargained for.

If the plane theory works then would explosives rigged to the same floors that were hit by the plane work? Meaning could you recreate the same collapse in the same type building by only destroying the parts of the building the plane and ensuing fires destroyed by using just explosives instead? Is that rigging every floor?

How about if a plane and some jet fuel ignited fires can do it then wouldn't a plane, some jet fuel ignited fires, and even just a firecracker do it just a little better?

Having to rig the building with the time and care of a traditional CD is just a straw man. None then less there were people who had the experience and access to the building if that's what they wanted to do. I just don't think it had to be that extensive. According to the official version it didn’t need to be that extensive you’re only taxed with having to rig every floor if you don’t believe the official version. That being said I do believe that lower parts of the building would have to be taken out for it to fall as fast as it did but why does it have to be explosives on every single floor beneath the plane crash?

[Regnad Kcin]

So, you're not just reporting what's in the news, you're actually pointing out links between this guy and the 'conspiracy'.... but you're doing it anonymously on a forum he is probably totally unaware of.

Hmmmmmm gonna change the world?The "truth" movement is in no way, shape, or form interested in taking real action. The ignorant are too lazy and the liars are too shrewd. Their sole intent is to sow the seeds of discontent.

[Regnad Kcin]

Yes but to believe the official version is to believe that at about 8:00 am on Sept 11th the towers stood perfectly well with no explosives in them and then about an hour later they were completely gone. It would take teams of expert’s months to rig the building to fall because supposedly it would have to be prepared exactly like a traditional CD for nothing else would work.

Except 10 hijackers, a plane each with half tanks of fuel into the upper floors of the towers, and one hour. This is the only thing that could have knocked down the towers in an hour and these hijackers figured it out or just got extremely lucky and more then they bargained for.

If the plane theory works then would explosives rigged to the same floors that were hit by the plane work? Meaning could you recreate the same collapse in the same type building by only destroying the parts of the building the plane and ensuing fires destroyed by using just explosives instead? Is that rigging every floor?

How about if a plane and some jet fuel ignited fires can do it then wouldn't a plane, some jet fuel ignited fires, and even just a firecracker do it just a little better?

Having to rig the building with the time and care of a traditional CD is just a straw man. None then less there were people who had the experience and access to the building if that's what they wanted to do. I just don't think it had to be that extensive. According to the official version it didn’t need to be that extensive you’re only taxed with having to rig every floor if you don’t believe the official version. That being said I do believe that lower parts of the building would have to be taken out for it to fall as fast as it did but why does it have to be explosives on every single floor beneath the plane crash?Your understanding of these matters is breathtakingly wrong.

[DavidJames]

Yes but to believe the official version is to believe that at about 8:00 am on Sept 11th the towers stood perfectly well with no explosives in them and then about an hour later they were completely gone. It would take teams of expert’s months to rig the building to fall because supposedly it would have to be prepared exactly like a traditional CD for nothing else would work.

Except 10 hijackers, a plane each with half tanks of fuel into the upper floors of the towers, and one hour. This is the only thing that could have knocked down the towers in an hour and these hijackers figured it out or just got extremely lucky and more then they bargained for.

If the plane theory works then would explosives rigged to the same floors that were hit by the plane work? Meaning could you recreate the same collapse in the same type building by only destroying the parts of the building the plane and ensuing fires destroyed by using just explosives instead? Is that rigging every floor?

How about if a plane and some jet fuel ignited fires can do it then wouldn't a plane, some jet fuel ignited fires, and even just a firecracker do it just a little better?

Having to rig the building with the time and care of a traditional CD is just a straw man. None then less there were people who had the experience and access to the building if that's what they wanted to do. I just don't think it had to be that extensive. According to the official version it didn’t need to be that extensive you’re only taxed with having to rig every floor if you don’t believe the official version. That being said I do believe that lower parts of the building would have to be taken out for it to fall as fast as it did but why does it have to be explosives on every single floor beneath the plane crash?

Well done Zen. Over 800 posts in one month and they can all be boiled down to “I’m not smart enough to understand the physics and engineering behind the NIST report, so the attack must have been an inside job”. Outstanding.

Let me suggest that should you figure out a way to get into college, try to get yourself into some classes in the fields of physics, engineering and math. A course related to logic and critical thinking would also be very helpful.

Now, get cracking, if you’re going to post another 800+ times in September, you need to pick up the pace.

[ZENSMACK89]

Perhaps Zen thinks this guy should also be in the frame for the 911 conspiracy, since he predicted an attack on the wtc towers by terrorists using aircraft.....





But then again, he can't really.... since he was killed during the 911 attacks



http://www.rickrescorla.com/
No but he could have been another person that could have proved that the statement "we had no idea" planes being used as missiles were a possibility. He could of simple unknowingly given certain people ideas with his predications.

Another person who died in the towers was John O'Neil who was recommended for a security job by Jerome Hauer after O'Neil left the FBI in and not on good terms. He was an expert in all things UBL and would have been the best to determine if UBL was really behind 9-11 or not. His outspokenness and determination to get to the bottom of things like the Cole bombing got him labeled a trouble maker. It's safe to say he would have been very outspoken on his thought of the official version and what people knew leading up to the attacks and what they didn't. He never got the chance though.

There is also the story of Timothy McNivin who claims as far back as 1976 him and a unit he was part of came up with the idea of hijacking planes with box cutters and crashing them specifically into the WTC. This was part of a congressional commissioned study to identify security lapses and submit corrective action. He could be just a crackpot but he does name other military personnel who were part of this study and has urged them to also come forward.

http://www.codenamegrillfire.com/docs/affidavit.pdf

Then of course there are the drills that have been talked about so much. So it seems there were plenty of people besides these supposed hijackers who had the same idea as Rescorla. Someone just took the idea and ran with it.

[ZENSMACK89]

Well done Zen. Over 800 posts in one month and they can all be boiled down to “I’m not smart enough to understand the physics and engineering behind the NIST report, so the attack must have been an inside job”. Outstanding.

Let me suggest that should you figure out a way to get into college, try to get yourself into some classes in the fields of physics, engineering and math. A course related to logic and critical thinking would also be very helpful.

Now, get cracking, if you’re going to post another 800+ times in September, you need to pick up the pace.
I'm smart enough to know that the NIST WTC report is not proof of anything. Just a highly speculative and disputed theory on the cause and initiation of the collapse.

[Drudgewire]

I'm smart enough to know that the NIST WTC report is not proof of anything. Just a highly speculative and disputed theory on the cause and initiation of the collapse.
Which is one step below "smart enough to get the joke on bazooka joe comics most of the time."

[funk de fino]

Except 10 hijackers, a plane each with half tanks of fuel into the upper floors of the towers, and one hour. This is the only thing that could have knocked down the towers in an hour and these hijackers figured it out or just got extremely lucky and more then they bargained for.



When has anyone ever said that the terrorists meant to knock down the towers?

They meant to fly planes into them but at no point has anyone claimed they meant to knock them down. If no-one esle thought they would collapse then why would the hijackers?

So yes, they did get more than they bargained for

No-one has said that the planes and fires were the only things that could ever have knocked down the towers, but "on that day" they were because there is no proof of any other way it could have happened

[parky76]

Its time for the Truthers to prove it in a court of law. Take their darn accusations to court. America, Britain, Germany, wherever. Time to put up or shut up.

[Elizabeth I]

NIST is just a highly speculative theory of collapse initiation (that is if it's not just totally conscience bull) and nothing on the collapse itself.

That doesn't make any sense at all. What is "conscience bull"?

Well of course you don't believe it --- it is, after all, true, obvious, and easy to prove with just a few seconds research.
J.L. Hudson’s in Detroit, Michigan, the tallest building ever razed, was 439 ft. (26 stories). See here (http://www.implosionworld.com/records.htm).


I hadn't thought of it until I read your post, but that's something the truthers never seem to add into their "equations" - all the prep work, like pulling out interior walls, or cutting the steel to weaken it in strategic points, that's necessary to make a CD work. It's not just a matter of flipping a few sticks of dynamite around.

Surely someone would have noticed a bunch of people with cutting torches wandering around the WTC? Not to mention the demolition crews with sledge hammers taking out walls.

[Drudgewire]

Surely someone would have noticed a bunch of people with cutting torches wandering around the WTC? Not to mention the demolition crews with sledge hammers taking out walls.
Duct tape. All done with duct tape. Quick, easy, and can be pulled off in minutes by Richard Dean Anderson.

Hey, has anyone suggested the WTC buildings were all constructed with explosives already built in yet? I mean, the best conspiracies are the ones that have been planned for decades. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/tinfoil.gif

[DavidJames]

I'm smart enough to know that the NIST WTC report is not proof of anything. Of course you are. You’re smarter then the hundreds of people whose names are in the NIST report. You’re so much smarter then all the professionals and engineers that you can reach your conclusions without any education or practical experience or background in any relevant disciplines. You’re so smart you can just hand wave all the analysis away and yet provide not a lick of analysis to support your hand waving.

Yet, what do you do with this exceptional knowledge? Post more then 30 times a day, every day, on this forum, that’s what you do. Mommy and daddy must be so proud.

[ZENSMACK89]

When has anyone ever said that the terrorists meant to knock down the towers?

They meant to fly planes into them but at no point has anyone claimed they meant to knock them down. If no-one else thought they would collapse then why would the hijackers?

I didn't say they necessarily did thus the "got lucky" and "more than they bargained for" part of my statement. Though in one of the supposed UBL confession videos he claims to have known the Jet Fuel would leak down through the floors and cause the buildings to fall. He's just an Evil Genius I guess.

No-one has said that the planes and fires were the only things that could ever have knocked down the towers, but "on that day" they were because there is no proof of any other way it could have happened

So explosive on a few floors couldn't initiate the same the same collapse a plane crash to a few floors could initiate? Or a plane crash and some explosive devises lower down? Why does it always have to be either a plane or traditionally wired CD? It's a known terrorist tactic to follow up one attack with a secondary device. This was also a previous terrorist target. It wouldn't be the first time it was bombed.

It's not in anyone’s interest involved to follow up on the witness accounts of explosions though. The planes and fire alone theory makes it no fault from a security and insurance standpoint. Explosive devices are exactly what the security was supposed to be looking for since 93. I would further gather there were security measures that had to be met after 93 to re-insure the buildings. If someone were able to get near the building with explosives this would cause accountability an insurance nightmare. T would mean someone didn’t do their job.

[Jonnyclueless]

I think you must be confusing the part in the video where Bin Laden says he never expected the buildings to actually collapse. It sounds kinda the same so I can see where you would get confused.

No explosives on every floor would not initiate the same collapse. Now if the planes had hit and the towers collapsed from the bottom, you might be on to something. But that's not how it happened.

If explosives had been used, the would have left tell tale signs and the remains of them would be found. Nothing to even remotely implicate explosives has ever been found. And explosions are something that aare going to be the result of a plane hitting a building, fires, and collapsing.

You simply can't make buildings plane proof and protect everything from every terrorist attack possibility. It's simply impossible.

[ZENSMACK89]

Of course you are. You’re smarter then the hundreds of people whose names are in the NIST report. You’re so much smarter then all the professionals and engineers that you can reach your conclusions without any education or practical experience or background in any relevant disciplines. You’re so smart you can just hand wave all the analysis away and yet provide not a lick of analysis to support your hand waving.

Yet, what do you do with this exceptional knowledge? Post more then 30 times a day, every day, on this forum, that’s what you do. Mommy and daddy must be so proud.
And of course you are so smart to see right through me and all my lies and nonsense but someone else might not be as smart as you so you need to point it out, right? You’re going to point out all the things someone else might not get because they might not be as clever as you and be fooled by me. You’re going to save them.

You’re a hero.

Does what I say or believe really bother you? How come? I'm just a dumb kid according to you with crazy ideas no one could possibly take seriously. So what's the harm?

[ktesibios]

Duct tape. All done with duct tape. Quick, easy, and can be pulled off in minutes by Richard Dean Anderson.

Hey, has anyone suggested the WTC buildings were all constructed with explosives already built in yet? I mean, the best conspiracies are the ones that have been planned for decades. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/tinfoil.gif

Yes, He Who Shall Not Be Named claimed exactly that; his mythical 3" rebar on 4' centers was coated with C4 explosive.

When has anyone ever said that the terrorists meant to knock down the towers?

They meant to fly planes into them but at no point has anyone claimed they meant to knock them down. If no-one esle thought they would collapse then why would the hijackers?

So yes, they did get more than they bargained for

No-one has said that the planes and fires were the only things that could ever have knocked down the towers, but "on that day" they were because there is no proof of any other way it could have happened

Indeed. Any layman could confidently predict that crashing airliners into floors filled with open-plan offices would kill and injure hundreds, if not thousands, of people and have a spectacular psychological effect. A layman armed with knowledge of the Meridian Bank fire in Philly (after which the damaged building stood empty for seven years while the owners, insurers, city government and their respective lawyers bickered about what was to be done with it and who would pay) could also predict that it would "kill" the buildings- that their usefulness as space organized for human activity would be forever at an end.

Imagine that the fires burned out with the towers still standing. What would one do with them? If a means could be found to repair all the structural damage, what L & I department would have the stones to sign off on a certificate of occupancy? If they had to be taken down, how would it be done without risking precipitating a collapse? How much of the surrounding area would have to be evacuated in case something went wrong? How much economic disruption would that inflict?

It took no great specialized knowledge for the terrorists to predict that they could inflict mass death and unimaginable economic loss. That was probably enough for them irrespective of the details.

[pomeroo]

It's been alleged that if explosives were planted in the towers it would have taken weeks or months and teams of people to do it. I don't believe that but I do believe if Kroll the company Jerome Hauer was at and who were retained by the Port Authority after the first WTC attacks wanted to plant explosives in the WTC they had the expertise through associates and August 2001 acquisition Defense Systems Limited to do so and all the time in the world to do it.



You don't believe that wiring the towers would have been a logistical near-impossibility because you know absolutely nothing about the demolition industry.

What do you know about?

[ZENSMACK89]

I think you must be confusing the part in the video where Bin Laden says he never expected the buildings to actually collapse. It sounds kinda the same so I can see where you would get confused.

That's correct but according to at least one of his supposed confessions he planned for the steel structure to be destroyed in the top floors from the melting in the fire.

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=pubs-english&y=2006&m=August&x=20060828133846esnamfuaK0.2676355

In a November 2001 tape, bin Laden said, “We calculated in advance the number of casualties … who would be killed …. I was the most optimistic of them all. … Due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only.”

No explosives on every floor would not initiate the same collapse. Now if the planes had hit and the towers collapsed from the bottom, you might be on to something. But that's not how it happened.

If explosive on every floor would not initiate the same collapse why is CD the only alternative to the planes and fire alone? Why is it always claimed every floor would have to be wired and it would take weeks and yadda yadda yadda? How about some explosive devices to help the plane and fires? Or some cutter charges to further weaken the supports?

If explosives had been used, the would have left tell tale signs and the remains of them would be found. Nothing to even remotely implicate explosives has ever been found. And explosions are something that aare going to be the result of a plane hitting a building, fires, and collapsing.

There weren't a whole lot of tell tale signs of anything after the collapses. But explosions from a plane hitting, fires, and collapsing are distinguishable from explosive devices in all that confusion?

You simply can't make buildings plane proof and protect everything from every terrorist attack possibility. It's simply impossible.

How convenient for anyone who could have been held accountable for security breaches.

[ZENSMACK89]

You don't believe that wiring the towers would have been a logistical near-impossibility because you know absolutely nothing about the demolition industry.

What do you know about?

What I know is if it's claimed structural damage from planes to a few top floors of a 110 story building and ensuing pockets of fire can take down a building in less then an hour(TWICE!) then I feel it's more reasonable to claim explosives are not only NOT logistically impossible but explosives would do it even better.

What do you know?

[Sabrina]

Yes, He Who Shall Not Be Named claimed exactly that; his mythical 3" rebar on 4' centers was coated with C4 explosive.

Voldemort? :duck:

[uk_dave]

What I know is if it's claimed structural damage from planes to a few top floors of a 110 story building and ensuing pockets of fire can take down a building in less then an hour(TWICE!) then I feel it's more reasonable to claim explosives are not only NOT logistically impossible but explosives would do it even better.

What do you know?

So it didn't need explosive charges on every floor?

How much explosive was needed?

Or, put another way, how much more damage, over and above that caused by the aircraft impacts and fires, was needed to cause the collapse?

[Regnad Kcin]

Its time for the Truthers to prove it in a court of law. Take their darn accusations to court. America, Britain, Germany, wherever. Time to put up or shut up.Please see post # 171.

[ZENSMACK89]

So it didn't need explosive charges on every floor?

How much explosive was needed?

Or, put another way, how much more damage, over and above that caused by the aircraft impacts and fires, was needed to cause the collapse?
I don't believe so. I think what would have been most important in the collapse witnessed would have been core failure possibly by an explosion at the base. There could have been additional ones but I don’t think anywhere near every floor would have been necessary.

I don't believe the asymmetrical steel structural damage and the sagging and pulling in could have even initiated the collapse that was witnessed never mind follow through all the way to the bottom without favoring one side at some point and stopping before complete collapse to the ground.

[NYCEMT86]

I don't believe so. I think what would have been most important in the collapse witnessed would have been core failure possibly by an explosion at the base. There could have been additional ones but I don’t think anywhere near every floor would have been necessary.

I don't believe the asymmetrical steel structural damage and the sagging and pulling in could have even initiated the collapse that was witnessed never mind follow through all the way to the bottom without favoring one side at some point and stopping before complete collapse to the ground.



How would a base core blast initate a collapse on the impacted floors, which we can clearly see on any video of the towers collapsing? if that is true, how would have the elevators, stairwells, ect survived plus the people who where in said areas?



ETA: What about those who survived in the basement?

[ZENSMACK89]

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking and I'm not sure what survivors you are talking about. The taking out of the core explains the building falling as symmetrically as it did more then a plane crash near the top on one side. It would also explain better the lack of resistance and the speed of the collapse better then the pile driver type collapse. Although they did bear loads the buildings primary strength was the core not the outer walls and the floors. The core didn’t suffer enough damage from the plane at the top for it to collapse all the way to the bottom at the speed witnessed. The weight of the falling top floors would not have entirely overcome the weight and strength of the lower seventy floors of core on its own and it certainly wouldn’t have contained itself to falling down the center for the entire collapse without help.

[ZENSMACK89]

How would a base core blast initiate a collapse on the impacted floors, which we can clearly see on any video of the towers collapsing? If that is true, how would have the elevators, stairwells, ect survived plus the people who where in said areas?

Ok I see the edit. When I say base I don't necessarily mean in the basement though I don't rule it out either. Remember there was an explosion in the parking garage in 93 and there were survivors. If the core was compromised it would explain better the lack of resistance when the building started to fall. The weight of the building could be used but not all the way to the ground unless the core was compromise somehow. It doesn't have to be every floor.

ETA: What about those who survived in the basement?

This is a good question. I've seen pictures of shops and trains below the WTC that were still intact. How does the official version explain a conservation of momentum collapse that at least was somewhat arrested at ground level? Why wasn't everything flattened into the bottom of the basement?

[ZENSMACK89]

You might want to read this (http://www.911myths.com/html/microbiologists.html) in regards to your microbiologists.

and using the KKK as a source doesn't look good on your either.
I listed more then the initial five. There have been more that have died since then and before then. They're still dying. This hardly debunks any of the five it tries to never mind all the other ones who have died. And the article I pointed to wasn't written by Rense.

[ZENSMACK89]

That doesn't make any sense at all. What is "conscience bull"?

As in they actually believe what they wrote and are just wrong or they know what they wrote is bull.

I hadn't thought of it until I read your post, but that's something the truthers never seem to add into their "equations" - all the prep work, like pulling out interior walls, or cutting the steel to weaken it in strategic points, that's necessary to make a CD work. It's not just a matter of flipping a few sticks of dynamite around.

It didn't have to be explosives in the traditional CD sense.

Surely someone would have noticed a bunch of people with cutting torches wandering around the WTC? Not to mention the demolition crews with sledge hammers taking out walls.

It depends on how they did it and to say no one noticed anything is inaccurate.

[ZENSMACK89]

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11324&page=22

Hauer contributed to the following.

Reopening Public Facilities After a Biological Attack: A Decision-Making Framework (2005) medical and public health management. Journal of the American Medical Association

Tularemia as a biological weapon
Smallpox as a biological weapon
Anthrax as a biological weapon
Plague as a biological weapon

[ZENSMACK89]

Hauers testimony to the 9-11 commission

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:4nCJMUFDtdUJ:www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing11/hauer_statement.pdf+%22jerome+Hauer%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

"As horrific as the events of September 11th were, they were limited in scope and geography. The next incident will involve simultaneous attacks in a single or multiple cities, the use of chemical or biological agents or the use of a nuclear device."

[Dr Adequate]

Yes but to believe the official version is to believe that at about 8:00 am on Sept 11th the towers stood perfectly well with no explosives in them and then about an hour later they were completely gone. No. Do try to get the basic facts right.

Having to rig the building with the time and care of a traditional CD is just a straw man. Ah, so now it's not a "traditional" controlled demolition, like the type carried out by people who do controlled demolitions.

It's an "untraditional" controlled demolition, which is done by ... er, by what?

By the way, you might want to look up the phrase "straw man" and find out what it means.

[Parsman]

As in they actually believe what they wrote and are just wrong or they know what they wrote is bull.



It didn't have to be explosives in the traditional CD sense.



It depends on how they did it and to say no one noticed anything is inaccurate.

So...it is a CD because it looks like all the CDs you have ever seen before, BUT it isn't a traditional CD so why would it look like all the CDs you have ever seen before?

My brain hurts to much to become a truther ;)

[Dr Adequate]

I'm smart enough to know that the NIST WTC report is not proof of anything. Just a highly speculative and disputed theory on the cause and initiation of the collapse. What else are you smart enough to know?

I mean, you're smarter than all those scientists, so perhaps you've come up with some other revolutionary scientific discovery of world-shaking importance.

Well, I just wondered.

[ZENSMACK89]

"So...it is a CD because it looks like all the CDs you have ever seen before..."

When did I say it looked like all the CD's I've ever seen before?

BTW it's "too much" but don't go hurting that brain anymore then you have to. It would be such a waste.

[ZENSMACK89]

No. Do try to get the basic facts right.

They fell in an hour without teams of experts working on them for months according to the official version.

Ah, so now it's not a "traditional" controlled demolition, like the type carried out by people who do controlled demolitions.

Explosive devices aren't necessarily CD and however it was done there was no regard for safety or the well being of surrounding structures which are primary reasons to control a demolition traditionally.

It's an "untraditional" controlled demolition, which is done by ... er, by what?

Explosive devices. Was OK City a CD? Did it take teams of people in the building months to set-up? Was the device even in the building?

By the way, you might want to look up the phrase "straw man" and find out what it means.

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent." - wiki

It applies except for the fact that CD isn’t really as easy to refute as claimed. I showed who had access and ability and time to do it if they needed. I just never claimed it as the only way it could be done thus it is misrepresenting my argument.

[uk_dave]

I don't believe so. I think what would have been most important in the collapse witnessed would have been core failure possibly by an explosion at the base. There could have been additional ones but I don’t think anywhere near every floor would have been necessary.

I don't believe the asymmetrical steel structural damage and the sagging and pulling in could have even initiated the collapse that was witnessed never mind follow through all the way to the bottom without favoring one side at some point and stopping before complete collapse to the ground.

Are you saying that you believe the aircraft impact and susequent fires had nothing to do with the collapse? It was all down to the removal of the core support at basement level?

Also, how much of the core needed to be removed at basement level, in your opinion, for the collapse to happen? How many columns needed to be removed by explosives?

[ZENSMACK89]

Are you saying that you believe the aircraft impact and subsequent fires had nothing to do with the collapse? It was all down to the removal of the core support at basement level?

No I said it unlikely the planes and fires that were almost burnt out initiated collapse and even if it did it wasn't enough to cause collapse down to ground level as symmetrically and as fast as the buildings fell. I also didn't say it necessarily had to be at the basement level or necessarily completely removed just compromised near the bottom to get the weight of the majority of the building to work against itself instead of just the very top.

Also, how much of the core needed to be removed at basement level, in your opinion, for the collapse to happen? How many columns needed to be removed by explosives?

I’m not sure but it was claimed in the trial of the 93 bombing that if just the one bomb had had been parked closer to the center support it could have collapsed the building. That I think is unlikely but would make more sense to me then the official 9-11 version of the top damaged burnt out 30 something floors crushing through 70 something intact floors and columns all the way to the ground with hardly any resistance.

[uk_dave]

and even if it did it wasn't enough to cause collapse down to ground level as symmetrically and as fast as the buildings fell.

Do you believe that if the damage at high level had been greater, it could have initiated then?



That I think is unlikely but would make more sense to me then the official 9-11 version of the top damaged burnt out 30 something floors crushing through 70 something intact floors and columns all the way to the ground with hardly any resistance.

But your belief is based upon an incomplete understanding of what made the towers stand in the first place. Unless you're willing to accept that the floor assemblies were integral to the stability of the structure, you will, no doubt, continue to believe that '30 something floors' couldn't crush through '70 something intact floors'.

This is the point at which you approach a qualified structural engineer with experience in designing multistorey structures and ask them to explain why it was possible for the top section to destroy the lower section.

Will you do that?

[ZENSMACK89]

Do you believe that if the damage at high level had been greater, it could have initiated then?

I think the damage to the top was significant. No I don't believe a burnt out and damaged top part of the building could systematically crush the bottom undamaged majority of the building.

But your belief is based upon an incomplete understanding of what made the towers stand in the first place. Unless you're willing to accept that the floor assemblies were integral to the stability of the structure, you will, no doubt, continue to believe that '30 something floors' couldn't crush through '70 something intact floors'.

I didn't say the floors assemblies weren't integral it just doesn't explain the destruction of the core all the way to the ground at the speed witnessed. As integral as the floor assemblies were they were not as important as the core.

This is the point at which you approach a qualified structural engineer with experience in designing multistorey structures and ask them to explain why it was possible for the top section to destroy the lower section.

An architect in my family witnessed both collapses first hand in NYC and was the first one to suggest to me the buildings could not have fell the way they did from the plane crash and fires. I did believe the collapse at the time and I in my ignorance tried to explain to an architect the documentary on the WTC where they explained the way the floors were designed to increase floor space. I was trying to explain the pancake. He's a partner at his firm and gave me the impression that many in his field were confused by it.

He just remarked something to the affect "I know how it was designed it doesn't happen." He never said anything about explosives or even offered any other explanation just that he didn't believe it. That's when I started looking on my own and found others who didn't believe it. I haven't talked to him about it since.

[Elizabeth I]

As in they actually believe what they wrote and are just wrong or they know what they wrote is bull.

That still doesn't make any sense.


It depends on how they did it and to say no one noticed anything is inaccurate.

Oh, so people DID notice huge holes in the building where interior walls were demolished? They DID notice tens, if not hundreds, of people working with cutting torches? And no one called the building management, or NYC Code Compliance, or the police, to report what was at the very least vandalism on a massive scale?

Have you ever LOOKED at what goes on for months before a CD?

Explosive devices. Was OK City a CD? Did it take teams of people in the building months to set-up? Was the device even in the building?

No, Oklahoma City was a whacking great explosion, which, if I recall, looked nothing like the WTC. Wasn't the whole side of the building blown off? However, part of it remained standing. Asymmetric demolition because of where the damage occurred. Completely different from the WTC.

What are you trying to say?

[uk_dave]

I think the damage to the top was significant. No I don't believe a burnt out and damaged top part of the building could systematically crush the bottom undamaged majority of the building.

Why not? Why can't the failure of the top part of the structure cause the load of this structure to be placed on to the floor assemblies fatally overloading them?


I didn't say the floors assemblies weren't integral it just doesn't explain the destruction of the core all the way to the ground at the speed witnessed. As integral as the floor assemblies were they were not as important as the core.


Do you believe the core and/or the perimeter columns could have stood at 110 storeys tall without any floors?


An architect in my family witnessed both collapses first hand in NYC and was the first one to suggest to me the buildings could not have fell the way they did from the plane crash and fires. I did believe the collapse at the time and I in my ignorance tried to explain to an architect the documentary on the WTC where they explained the way the floors were designed to increase floor space. I was trying to explain the pancake. He's a partner at his firm and gave me the impression that many in his field were confused by it.

Great. Will he go on the record? Has he already done so?

If not, why not?


He just remarked something to the affect "I know how it was designed it doesn't happen." He never said anything about explosives or even offered any other explanation just that he didn't believe it. That's when I started looking on my own and found others who didn't believe it. I haven't talked to him about it since.

His comment makes no sense. Perhaps you misunderstood him.
Does he have experience in multistorey steel frame structures?
Have you discussed with him the requirements for fireproofing structural steel in buildings?
Has he discussed it with any structural engineers?

If you don't know the answers to any of these questions, why not? Isn't it something you should know if you're going to base your beliefs about 911 on his opinions?

[ZENSMACK89]

Why not? Why can't the failure of the top part of the structure cause the load of this structure to be placed on to the floor assemblies fatally overloading them?

Because they were designed to hold that load and did. And what kind of load are we talking about if you are also claiming infernos so great as to compromise steel? What was left in the loads as far as drywall carpeting, cubicles, building contents, etc. etc.? How many tons of this stuff did the great inferno leave behind? Are we talking about an empty frame of steel and concrete floors? Why wouldn't the fully intact structure support it any longer when it always did? And even if it failed how did this damaged dynamic mass crush 70 plus floors of not on fire, static mass, comprised of, intact floors, core, and building contents, straight down at the speed witnessed? NIST never even covers that part.

Do you believe the core and/or the perimeter columns could have stood at 110 stories tall without any floors?

Why all 110 stories of core? The towers failed to the ground. What's more important the floors or the core? What do you build first as you're going up? The core or the outer walls and floor? When the planes hit and took out floor and outer wall did the entire core fail in the impact zone? What kept everything above it up for an hour? When it's claimed the outer wall pulling in because of sag what is the core doing?

Great. Will he go on the record? Has he already done so? If not, why not?

I haven't asked him and we don't live near each other. When I do see him the WTC hasn't really come up

His comment makes no sense. Perhaps you misunderstood him.

Perhaps but he seemed very clear that the collapse didn’t make sense.

Does he have experience in multistory steel frame structures?

Yes he does. When I did talk to him that time the subject of re-building came up and I asked if his firm would be involved and he did allude to them putting something together for submission but also insinuate some kind of politics involved in the process. So I would imagine firms trying to score that kind of deal wouldn't be looking to shoot themselves in the foot by bringing up WTC controversy that’s just what I got out of it though.

Have you discussed with him the requirements for fireproofing structural steel in buildings?

No I didn't.

Has he discussed it with any structural engineers?

I'm sure it was discussed much among peers. At least that's the impression I got and why I feel if engineers are not officially weighing in on things like the collapse or the NIST report it shouldn't automatically be assumed they agree with it.

If you don't know the answers to any of these questions, why not? Isn't it something you should know if you're going to base your beliefs about 911 on his opinions?

I never said I based all my beliefs on his brief comments only that it got me started in questioning the collapse and other things about 9-11.

[ZENSMACK89]

That still doesn't make any sense.

Yes it does. They are either wrong or lying.

Oh, so people DID notice huge holes in the building where interior walls were demolished? They DID notice tens, if not hundreds, of people working with cutting torches? And no one called the building management, or NYC Code Compliance, or the police, to report what was at the very least vandalism on a massive scale?

I said their were people who notice unusual goings on not that they were the things you claim.

Have you ever LOOKED at what goes on for months before a CD?

To believe the official version is to believe there is more then one way to take down a building. It doesn't have to be CD in the traditional sense of the word.

No, Oklahoma City was a whacking great explosion, which, if I recall, looked nothing like the WTC. Wasn't the whole side of the building blown off? However, part of it remained standing. Asymmetric demolition because of where the damage occurred. Completely different from the WTC.

That's right. There's more then one way to take down a building. In fact you are now up to three in this reply alone.

What are you trying to say?

You said it for me. Thank you. There is more then one way to take down a building.

[Elizabeth I]

You said it for me. Thank you. There is more then one way to take down a building.

Yes, a very effective way is to fly an airliner into it at 500 miles per hour.

Serious question: Why is that such a difficult concept to get your mind around? I really, really don't understand. Such an occurrence NEVER took place before, so how can you say with such confidence how it SHOULD have happened? What it SHOULD have looked like? Why what it looked like is not what it SHOULD have looked like?

[uk_dave]

Because they were designed to hold that load and did. And what kind of load are we talking about if you are also claiming infernos so great as to compromise steel? What was left in the loads as far as drywall carpeting, cubicles, building contents, etc. etc.? How many tons of this stuff did the great inferno leave behind? Are we talking about an empty frame of steel and concrete floors? Why wouldn't the fully intact structure support it any longer when it always did? And even if it failed how did this damaged dynamic mass crush 70 plus floors of not on fire, static mass, comprised of, intact floors, core, and building contents, straight down at the speed witnessed? NIST never even covers that part.

The fire did not burn away the steel structure. There was plenty of weight above the impact zones which was not reduced by the fires.

When the structure above the impact zones started to move it did not do so in perfect alignment with the structure below it. Therefore columns and beams would be falling and overloading the floor assemblies. These floors would fail.
The floor assemblies restrained the outer perimeter columns. Without the floors, the outer columns failed.


Why all 110 stories of core? The towers failed to the ground. What's more important the floors or the core? What do you build first as you're going up? The core or the outer walls and floor? When the planes hit and took out floor and outer wall did the entire core fail in the impact zone? What kept everything above it up for an hour? When it's claimed the outer wall pulling in because of sag what is the core doing?Why not all 110 storeys? Why not 100 storeys? In fact, why not 5 storeys? Do you think a structure built as the wtc towers but only 5 storeys high could stand without internal floors?
Maybe you should ask your relative.


I haven't asked him and we don't live near each other. When I do see him the WTC hasn't really come uphmmmmm flaws in the official account of how 3000 fellow citizens died isn't important enough for discussion....fair enough.


Perhaps but he seemed very clear that the collapse didn’t make sense.
On what basis?


Yes he does. When I did talk to him that time the subject of re-building came up and I asked if his firm would be involved and he did allude to them putting something together for submission but also insinuate some kind of politics involved in the process. So I would imagine firms trying to score that kind of deal wouldn't be looking to shoot themselves in the foot by bringing up WTC controversy that’s just what I got out of it though.Nice guy. He believes that the towers should not have collapsed the way they did, therefore implicating a cover-up of the truth which not only suggests dark deeds by powerful forces but also that nothing which should be learned from the collapse is being learned and his profession is the lesser because of this.
And he wanted to tender for the re-build. What a patriot!




No I didn't.
Perhaps you should. I'd certainly be interested to know what he says.


I'm sure it was discussed much among peers. At least that's the impression I got and why I feel if engineers are not officially weighing in on things like the collapse or the NIST report it shouldn't automatically be assumed they agree with it.yeah, right.

I too have discussed the wtc towers collapse with two separate structural engineers, neither of which had any doubts about the veracity of the official account. But since we're not naming names here, I aint saying who they were. Don't believe me? Well, now you know how I feel.



I never said I based all my beliefs on his brief comments only that it got me started in questioning the collapse and other things about 9-11.It started you on this path of questioning everything about 911, but you never thought to question the person who set you off?

oooooooooooooo kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

[ZENSMACK89]

The fire did not burn away the steel structure. There was plenty of weight above the impact zones which was not reduced by the fires.

Again. Whatever was damaged and burned up were 100% more then what was damaged and burned up below the impact zones.

When the structure above the impact zones started to move it did not do so in perfect alignment with the structure below it. Therefore columns and beams would be falling and overloading the floor assemblies. These floors would fail. The floor assemblies restrained the outer perimeter columns. Without the floors, the outer columns failed.

Outer walls and columns. I'm asking what happened in the center during this so-called sagging. In fact where was the leverage coming from to pull on the outside other then its own weight?

Why not all 110 stories? Why not 100 stories? In fact, why not 5 stories? Do you think a structure built as the wtc towers but only 5 stories high could stand without internal floors? Maybe you should ask your relative.

Because it wasn't massive enough to overcome the lower seventy floors completely and symmetrically. That's why NIST couldn't show it. The official version is a weaker damaged much smaller dynamic mass overcoming a stronger much larger intact static mass.

Don't bother with the they weren't commissioned to. I've heard it all before.

hmmmmm flaws in the official account of how 3000 fellow citizens died isn't important enough for discussion....fair enough.


There wasn't an official version as far as I know when I initially spoke with him. I guess maybe the Bazant thing? Nothing that I knew of at the time except news reports.


On what basis?

Just that it didn't make sense to him that buildings of that size could collapse from a plane crash to the upper floors and pockets of fire.

Nice guy. He believes that the towers should not have collapsed the way they did, therefore implicating a cover-up of the truth which not only suggests dark deeds by powerful forces but also that nothing which should be learned from the collapse is being learned and his profession is the lesser because of this. And he wanted to tender for the re-build. What a patriot!

He's a very nice and compassionate man. We never discussed or got as far as inside job or explosions.
Perhaps you should. I'd certainly be interested to know what he says.

Maybe I will one day.

yeah, right.

Like I said just the impression I got.

I too have discussed the wtc towers collapse with two separate structural engineers, neither of which had any doubts about the veracity of the official account. But since we're not naming names here, I aint saying who they were. Don't believe me? Well, now you know how I feel.

I'm sure you have.

It started you on this path of questioning everything about 911, but you never thought to question the person who set you off?

Nope. Never did.

oooooooooooooo kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

youuuuuuuur wellllllllllllllcom

[uk_dave]

Again. Whatever was damaged and burned up were 100% more then what was damaged and burned up below the impact zones.

Still doesn't work. The tower was changed by the impact of the planes and the fires.

Let's put this another way, do you believe that had an architect wanted to do something a bit funky like having a 110 storey steel framed tower but with a large hole in the perimeter, a tilt to the section of tower above this hole, and some pyrotechnics which would be ignited every day for a couple of hours, would the design of this artistic structure be the same as that for the wtc towers?

If not, why not?



[/quote]

[A W Smith]

What I know is if it's claimed structural damage from planes to a few top floors of a 110 story building and ensuing pockets of fire can take down a building in less then an hour(TWICE!) then I feel it's more reasonable to claim explosives are not only NOT logistically impossible but explosives would do it even better.

What do you know?


how would explosives accelerate the collapse of the towers? even if you only loaded every third or fifth or tenth floor the floors at those levels only accelerates from zero. Theres no net gain. The lower floors still wont get out of the way fast enough unless you blast those floors well in advance like a typical demo. but then it would be visually obvious. . the office floors are simply bar joists for Christs sake. they cant possibly arrest the collapse anyway. no need for explosives.