NORAD Tapes

[Calcas]

Dylan got ahold of 120 hours of NORAD tapes and is seeding it now. It should be "public" today.

It seems David Ray Griffin has ALREADY asserted they are fabricated. Yes, 120 hours. Fabricated.

Someone asks Avery "who's going to listen to 120 hours of audio?" to which he responds,

"Our only request is that you report your findings back to us.

Hopefully our friends over at SLC and JREF will make themselves useful for a change instead of just playing armchair quarterback.

Nah, they'll just sit there and call me "Do-Over"

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=14767

[Drudgewire]

It seems David Ray Griffin has ALREADY asserted they are fabricated. Yes, 120 hours. Fabricated.
You almost have to wish there is something incredibly sinister-sounding on there just to watch his backpeddling. :D

[Spindrift]

You almost have to wish there is something incredibly sinister-sounding on there just to watch his backpeddling. :D

I don't know but I would guess that NORAD tapes would be filled with a lot of jargon that troofers will very easily misconstrue especially given their predeliction for taking things out of context.

So who wants to bet they find something that will be interpreted by them to be a "stand down" order?

[Viper Daimao]

Where'd they get these tapes?

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Where'd they get these tapes?

Dylan found them in his basement in a box labelled "9/11 - Do Not Open Until 2007"

But seriously... how'd they come up with these audio "tapes"?

I think I asked this in another thread about these tapes, but I lost track of where it was.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Also... What's to stop Dylan from editing audio file #750 and adding in a whisper in his best dick cheney impression: "stand down stand down I am Dick Cheney and I say stand down!!" Cover it up with some static and claim it's REAL!

[Digest]

robelem is i doubt many people will even know what they are listening to

the calls dont go like :

"Hey F15 Fighter jet please take of and head towards washington to meet up with a passenger jet that might be hijacked."

they are a mass of codes and call signs that will have to be deciphered

[Calcas]

Where'd they get these tapes?

I'm guessing a FOIA request.

It's actually pretty amazing what you can get nowadays...

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

robelem is i doubt many people will even know what they are listening to

the calls dont go like :

"Hey F15 Fighter jet please take of and head towards washington to meet up with a passenger jet that might be hijacked."

they are a mass of codes and call signs that will have to be deciphered

No doubt "Steam Boat River Pilots For Truth" will help them translate. And if they translate wrong and come to some zany conclusion? Good luck correcting them. We're already in the middle of THAT mess.

[Calcas]

No doubt "Steam Boat River Pilots For Truth" will help them translate. And if they translate wrong and come to some zany conclusion? Good luck correcting them. We're already in the middle of THAT mess.

We have fighter pilot and ATC members who post here. I doubt if the jargon will be allowed to be translated incorrectly.

Now, it will certainly be misconstrued and misunderstood, but not mistranslated.

[Dr Harry Rein]

I can't imagine that ordinary members of the public would be able to hear these tapes and make any sense out of them. They are probably so filled with esoteric and technical jargon that they are undeciferable to the rest of us.

I know from my own personal experience, if someone listened in to technical discussions I have with my colleagues (I am a software developer), they would think we are talking a foreign language.

Just more potential for mis-interpretation by the truth monkeys.

[Digest]

well i do plan on listening to all of the tapes and will provide some insight as I can understand the jargon once I get the dechipher for the call signs and station id call #'s

[Fifediesel]

In all honesty, what do they expect to find on these tapes? If a "stand down" order was really initiated from the top and captured on the tapes do you think the NWO would be stupid enough to just send them out to the general public? If they were willing to carry 9/11 out why would they be bothered by some silly FOIA request?

[T.A.M.]

It is one thing to alter joe publics video of the collapse. It would likely be a criminal act for Dylan to alter the NORAD Tapes and then release them as the originals...so I doubt he will edit them.

I for one would listen to a fair bit of it, should it be available. I will not, however, be accessing it through their seeding. Should Enigma have access to it, then I may download it from him privately...

TAM:)

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

You know they'll be trying "CSI" style crap on it... Listening to background static and trying to hear what they want to hear.

I imagine twoofers sitting outside on their Daddy's car hood listening to the tapes like Jodie Foster in Contact.

Maybe Dylan will suggest an overbearing hiphop track to listen to to help enhance audio listening pleasure.

[Drudgewire]

Listening to background static and trying to hear what they want to hear.
"This part didn't sound so bad when I first listened, but once we separated the sounds you can CLEARLY hear an EVP of the ghost of JFK weeping for our country." :(

[uk_dave]

Notice how they don't get all pant wetting excited about these things anymore?

Too many 'truther' false flags in the past.... the wtc plans was my favourite :D

[T.A.M.]

Operation DylanWoods...lol

TAM:)

[Hellbound]

T.A.M.:

Troothergate

[stanleywinthrop]

If anyone comes across jargon they don't understand, let me know. I've got 900 hours in fighter jets, and have done hundreds of practice intercepts (almost all against foes who were 'shooting' back though!) Does anyone have a link to download these files? The one above doesn't work for me.

[Brainster]

Dylan and Jason are playing the first two hours of these on Revere Radio (http://www.revereradio.net/) right now.

[boloboffin]

http://www.loosechange911.com/download/NORAD/NORAD.torrent

That's the link of the torrent, but it's not working for me. (3.22 Gb, btw).

[defaultdotxbe]

http://www.loosechange911.com/download/NORAD/NORAD.torrent

That's the link of the torrent, but it's not working for me. (3.22 Gb, btw).
yeah, says its not registered with the tracker, when you check out the tracker adn try to register you get this messege:

The current user account limit (0) has been reached. Inactive accounts are pruned all the time, please check back again later...

seems about the quality of work id expect from a truther, host a torrent on a private tracker with no members, lol

on the other hand, the porn tracker there seems to work fine, lol

[Drudgewire]

(3.22 Gb, btw).
:jaw-dropp

Well, someone give me the nuts and bolts. That far exceeds my non-porn download limit.

[Brainster]

Wow, this is gripping to listen to; Dylan will probably highlight some of the gallows humor but you can definitely hear the tension level ratchet up incredibly after the second crash.

[Alareth]

Hopefully our friends over at SLC and JREF will make themselves useful for a change instead of just playing armchair quarterback and do our research for us as usual.




That sounds more correct.

[boloboffin]

http://vip.tracker.thepiratebay.org/announce

Make sure that this is the correct tracker. I use uTorrent, so I just had to change this in properties.

[Digest]

fyi- these are straight magnetic copies - fairly impressive. I have already heard a weapons live code transmition. (hopefully thats been changed) Also some f15 dropped his tanks and hit a road...oops.

theres alot of info on these a far as from a Military perspective about the NORAD response.

Interesting so far.

[Digest]

/cry

"I dont care about f**king coded info that ***** is perishable..(sic) United93BMode3 vector confirmed ..(sic) Alpha1 GodDa**it drop your f**king tanks and intercept that plane NOW.."

thats reality.

[PhantomWolf]

/cry



thats reality.

Nah, it was scripted, just like the Apollo transmissions. ;)

[Digest]

its so incredibly sad you can hear the desperation and stress in their voices.

these guys think the entire country is under attack.

[Drudgewire]

its so incredibly sad you can hear the desperation and stress in their voices.

these guys think the entire country is under attack.
:(

[PhantomWolf]

its so incredibly sad you can hear the desperation and stress in their voices.

these guys think the entire country is under attack.

It was their job to keep the country safe from attack, how would it feel knowing you'd failed, and believing it was just going to keep getting worse, not knowing how many more attacks were coming or where from. I personally can't fathom a worse case senario for them.

[Digest]

"Regional Commander has given permission to fire for Non-Responder...Copy."
"Permission to shoot down if they do not respond. Copy"
"(Uninteliglble)455 weapons are hot - tracking - proceeding to ..(sic) Chicago Airspace is weapons live be aware"
Guess there goes that old theory.

[Drudgewire]

Guess there goes that old theory.


You wish.

It seems David Ray Griffin has ALREADY asserted they are fabricated. Yes, 120 hours. Fabricated.

[TobiasTheViking]

I know it is macabre... but i've been wanting these tapes for so long...

[Digest]

well i for one am happy to thank the "truth" crowd for getting these - it is not easy to get these.

And for someone who wants to hear voices from that day - to be with someone who was there- (even if only listening in to a recording) -- they are a godsend and very special.

Personally i thank dylan and crew for getting these and making them available.

[boloboffin]

Just to be fair, I was at LCF and Dylan, I believe, said:

a. Griffin had only claimed that the 30 hours used by the VF reporter were faked (still an herculean task) -- or maybe it was just the released five minutes or so.

b. He thinks he has the real deal - ~120 hours of faked transmissions are just a little too much for even him.

c. He expects that Griffin will recant.

[derail]So this is what it's like on the front end of a torrent. We have one seed and 26 peers out of 85 connected (and 40 in the swarm). I have no idea what I just said other than only one person is only uploading, vast chunks of the file is still unavailable, and almost everything happening right now is people swapping the parts of the files they have downloaded from the single seed.

[ref]

I think it's great, that when they got these, they make them available to all. The sad part is, they try to find any signs of a stand-down in those recordings. As someone already noted, why would they release these tapes to known truthers, if there actually was any evidence of a stand-down. They are getting all excited for nothing once again. Unless of course, you think like Griffin and think they are fabricated. I think Griffin is fabricated.

[T.A.M.]

There are alot of things Griffin is...but fabricated works as well.

TAM;)

[Par]

As someone already noted, why would they release these tapes to known truthers, if there actually was any evidence of a stand-down.


Because they can manipulate the government, the military and the media and they’re happy to murder three-thousand innocent Americans and then practically enslave the rest, but they’re powerless in the face of a Freedom of Information Act request.

[T.A.M.]

well I mean we are talking about the same all powerful, superintelligent, but equally incompetent cabal that planted the WRONG FDR data in the FDR of ALLEGED flight 77 at the pentagon...now it doesnt seems as silly...does it...lol

Sorry, I cant help but laugh as I type that crap.

TAM:)

[Swing Dangler]

More quotes posted at a website. I'm not sure of the accuracy or context so reader beware. I've highlighted the more interesting quotes:

a 737 (!) just hit the world trade center, this is real world"

22:22gmt You think we should stop the exercise? LAUGHTER LAUGHTER.

Whiskey 105, Delta up there 5 3? I've got they guy calling McGuire. Is he on the way home? 401 kc10 possible Hijack No Squawk .. unconfirmed second hit. Keep calling them! team 23 New York Center. Two KC10s a lot of fuel. team 23 and team 24 airborne. Tanker is on its way back.

Second unconfirmed is United Airlines 175

Battle station is only Langley.

FAA wants to hold them in Whiskey 105.

On battle station! 2526 on battle station, Langley

I want those fighters closer in.

22:47 american 11 the original guy is still airborne
We do have a tail number... N334AA
He is kinda smart, he knew exactly what he wanted us to do.

Unbelievable. JESUS Christ!

changing the symboligy, just going to be whatever.
25 is headed into Whiskey 106

Boston center team. We did the one home in 105, they were on a training mission.
Everybody in training send them home.

We want (Baltimore) center to maintain primary control.
I have an aircraft 6 miles east from the whitehouse!

Radar ONLY! Bravo 032 no alitude, I got em.
I don't care how many windows you break.
Syracuse stand by.

Sqawking 777! Traffic at 22000.

Delta 89 south south east of Toledo
Special track on that guy.

I talk to them, we do that homeland defence thing.
only 140 knots only 100 knots

This aircraft is coming from Canada.
No callsign, heading towards Washington.
Pentagon got whacked? unconfirmed? Unconfirmed information forget it!
I need callsigns from the Toledo Selfridge and Alpino guys,
Son of a bitch.
That looks like a small aircraft.. I mean small!
Trying to get an E3 over Chicago, I have no radar.
Fu** he's got it! Give me callsign, give me whole 9 yards.
United 93, got a bomb? Going from where to where.
Bomb on board, United 93, out of Boston?
Intercept! and divert that aircraft away from there.
AIRCRAFT OVER THE WHITEHOUSE

What is it? .. FIFTH AEROPLANE!! .. Cleveland!
negative clearance to fire. ID TYPE TAIL.


93 is down north east of Camp David confirmed.
He exploded, he exploded.

I can't wait to hear them for myself. I'm not the biggest fan of LC, but you have to give the guys credit no matter what your political stance.

[T.A.M.]

well DRG has called them fabricated, so if you are a member of his 9/11 church, you really shouldn't care what they say...

TAM;)

[T.A.M.]

BTW, has Dylan announced how he got these, and who from...would go a long way to verifying their legitimacy.

TAM:)

[Reality Believer]

Here is blurb I just heard from file one:

If we have to take anyone out, I recommend we use AIM-9's in the face:jaw-dropp

[Swing Dangler]

well DRG has called them fabricated, so if you are a member of his 9/11 church, you really shouldn't care what they say...

TAM;)
Come on TAM, you know by now I'm not a member of anyone's 9/11 church.
The only thing I could find on how they got them was this:

We just kept pushing, they are supposedly public domain, it took us about two months, and finally we received 60 (?) -- 3.76 gigabytes of information -- I think its basically from everybody's phone. I only ave gone through the first hour and a half of one of them. There is literally a 140 hours of material. So what we are doing right now: uploading it to a server, putting it into a torrent and people should watch out for blogger (911blogger.com?) and other places, really serious researchers who can go through that stuff, because I've got through it already and they are already talking about the drills, they are talking about how flight 11, ah, you know, is still around, 20, 40 minutes after it hits the building, you know this is one of te phantom flights. I have Richard Myers before the 911 Commission on the final day saying, yeah they fought many many phantoms that day, and he is sitting next to Eberhardt, and their big claim, its so funny, (?) how Arnold and Myers are all sitting there, their big claim is "oh well, before 9-11 we were looking at outward threats, we weren't looking at anything inward" Now, on June first and second of 2001, they ran a drill called Amalgam Virgo, where a hijacked aircraft from Alaska comes in and hits the Capitol Building, suicide hijacking, and Eberhardt is in this document and his face is in it and there is a message to all those running the drill, so he knows damn well that he is a liar. And the funnier thing is, on the cover is Osama Bin Laden. So they are running a drill with a hijack scenario with Ben Ladin on the cover of the thing, you know, I can't wait to show the final cut to people, because it has so much information that even the movement doesn't talk about.

[Swing Dangler]

Anyone have any interpretation of this quote:

2:47 american 11 the original guy is still airborne
We do have a tail number... N334AA
He is kinda smart, he knew exactly what he wanted us to do.

If American 11 is the original, then who is N334AA? If the original guy is still airborne, who is not airborne?
Are they discussing two different planes? If
If so that could make things interesting....

[twinstead]

I am certainly NOT looking forward to people pouring over every single word in all 120 hours of this thing asking "hmmmmm. What did he mean by that?"

[DavidJames]

I am certainly NOT looking forward to people pouring over every single word in all 120 hours of this thing asking "hmmmmm. What did he mean by that?"and deny them the only meaning they have to their pathetic lives, how cruel.

[Reheat]

I am certainly NOT looking forward to people pouring over every single word in all 120 hours of this thing asking "hmmmmm. What did he mean by that?"

No s***ski! They aren't going to understand the vast majority of it and some of what they will understand will be misconstrued or distorted.

[Reality Believer]

Anyone have any interpretation of this quote:

He is kinda smart, he knew exactly what he wanted us to do.

...

Man we are already seeing mis-representation of the dialog. Here is what was actually said on the tape. I just heard it:

CONTROLLER 1: "These guys are smart"
CONTROLLER 2: "Yea, they knew exactly what they wanted to do"

At 52:56 of tape DRM1 DAT2 Channel 2 MCC Op.wav

[slyjoe]

Anyone have any interpretation of this quote:



If American 11 is the original, then who is N334AA? If the original guy is still airborne, who is not airborne?
Are they discussing two different planes? If
If so that could make things interesting....

Isn't N334AA the tail number of American Flight 11?

Sheesh...

[Par]

Anyone have any interpretation of this quote:
If American 11 is the original, then who is N334AA? If the original guy is still airborne, who is not airborne?
Are they discussing two different planes? If
If so that could make things interesting....


Why are you doing that?

[Digest]

BTW, has Dylan announced how he got these, and who from...would go a long way to verifying their legitimacy.

TAM:)


jusdging by the codes (classified codes that is) being thrown around - I would say they are definately real.

[Hellbound]

Digest:

Of course you'd say that. You're with the NWO!

By the way, is the NWO mixer still on at Stonehenge next Friday? If so, I need to get my robe laundered and buy a goat...I'm in charge of sacrifices this time...

:D

[Par]

By the way, is the NWO mixer still on at Stonehenge next Friday? If so, I need to get my robe laundered and buy a goat...I'm in charge of sacrifices this time...

:D


I'm not doing the first blood-bong this time.

[Spins]

Man we are already seeing mis-representation of the dialog. Here is what was actually said on the tape. I just heard it:

CONTROLLER 1: "These guys are smart"
CONTROLLER 2: "Yea, they knew exactly what they wanted to do"

At 52:56 of tape DRM1 DAT2 Channel 2 MCC Op.wavWho, Swing? That's hardly surprising is it! :D

In fact it's a good example of how conspiracy theories propagate over the Internet, thanks Swing much appreciated. ;)

[Spins]

I am certainly NOT looking forward to people pouring over every single word in all 120 hours of this thing asking "hmmmmm. What did he mean by that?"
Yes, I fear this could turn into a quote mining woo fest akin to what happened with the FDNY testimony etc.

[Drudgewire]

If American 11 is the original, then who is N334AA? If the original guy is still airborne, who is not airborne?
Are they discussing two different planes? If
If so that could make things interesting....

Isn't N334AA the tail number of American Flight 11?

Sheesh...
Oh well, at least the tapes are going to give twoofers hundreds of new "gotcha" moments that will wind up making them look incredibly stupid. NIST was getting quite repetitive. :D

[T.A.M.]

To cherry pick out of these calls without a good background in ATC is just ridiculous. Without knowing what they are looking at on their screen, it is pure conjecture.

TAM:)

[RedIbis]

How might we interpret this:

"Fu** he's got it! Give me callsign, give me whole 9 yards.
United 93, got a bomb? Going from where to where.
Bomb on board, United 93, out of Boston?
Intercept! and divert that aircraft away from there.
AIRCRAFT OVER THE WHITEHOUSE

What is it? .. FIFTH AEROPLANE!! .. Cleveland!
negative clearance to fire. ID TYPE TAIL.


93 is down north east of Camp David confirmed.
He exploded, he exploded."

[Swing Dangler]

How might we interpret this:

"Fu** he's got it! Give me callsign, give me whole 9 yards.
United 93, got a bomb? Going from where to where.
Bomb on board, United 93, out of Boston?
Intercept! and divert that aircraft away from there.
AIRCRAFT OVER THE WHITEHOUSE

What is it? .. FIFTH AEROPLANE!! .. Cleveland!
negative clearance to fire. ID TYPE TAIL.


93 is down north east of Camp David confirmed.
He exploded, he exploded."

Tam, what kind of conjecture can you take from 93 exploding and going down north east of Camp David??
I'm curious to know how you can spin this into it not exploding and going down. On the other hand, I thought 93 went down in Shanksville?;)

[Par]

Tam, what kind of conjecture can you take from 93 exploding and going down east of Camp David??
I'm curious to know how you can spin this into it not exploding and going


Again.

[Swing Dangler]

Who, Swing? That's hardly surprising is it! :D

In fact it's a good example of how conspiracy theories propagate over the Internet, thanks Swing much appreciated. ;)

Yes Spin, and here is an example of someone ignoring a fact that I posted:
More quotes posted at a website. I'm not sure of the accuracy or context so reader beware. I've highlighted the more interesting quotes:

Thanks Spin. You are great example of a very poor debunker. Lets take something out of context and ignore a disclaimer in an attempt to attack the character. Nice job, Spin!

[Reheat]

Tam, what kind of conjecture can you take from 93 exploding and going down east of Camp David??
I'm curious to know how you can spin this into it not exploding and going down. On the other hand, I thought 93 went down in Shanksville?;)

See, it's started already. :mad:

[Swing Dangler]

See, it's started already. :mad:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Flight 93 crash in Shanksville? I've always thought that anyway.

[Par]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Flight 93 crash in Shanksville? I've always thought that anyway.


Is this an attention thing?

[Spins]

Yes Spin, and here is an example of someone ignoring a fact that I posted:


Thanks Spin. You are great example of a very poor debunker. Lets take something out of context and ignore a disclaimer in an attempt to attack the character. Nice job, Spin!I did actually only read the post I'd replied to so I'll take what I said about you back on this occasion. You've been vindicated.

What I said regarding the miss-representation, and how conspiracy theories spread, is still valid though.

EDIT: Although reading the post again, which I was replying to, it did seem you'd sourced that quote yourself...

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2921774#post2921774

BTW you actually quoted a totally different post in your defense above.

[Swing Dangler]

I did actually only read the post I'd replied to so I take what I said about you back on this occasion.

What I said regarding the miss-representation, and how conspiracy theories spread, is still valid though.

On this occasion? ;) Ok, I forgive you.
And believe it or not, I can agree with you on your second statement.

[MarcoPolo]

Tam, what kind of conjecture can you take from 93 exploding and going down east of Camp David??
I'm curious to know how you can spin this into it not exploding and going down. On the other hand, I thought 93 went down in Shanksville?;)

I haven't heard the tapes, but if this quote is accurate:

93 is down north east of Camp David confirmed. He exploded, he exploded.

This doesn't automatically mean it exploded and then went down. From what I understand, when pilots or air traffic controllers say a plane is down, that could mean it landed safely. I think in this instance, he could be saying the plane is down, and it has exploded.

Sound reasonable? Is that spin?

[Calcas]

To cherry pick out of these calls without a good background in ATC is just ridiculous. Without knowing what they are looking at on their screen, it is pure conjecture.

TAM:)

Exactly.

I AM ex-ATC (both military and FAA) and there will still be transmissions I don't fully understand. Talk about an exercise in futility...is this what the next year is going to bring? Twoofers asking us to explain literally thousands of transmissions over 120 hours of tape?

No thanks.

[Swing Dangler]

Is this an attention thing?

Not at all. I've read Collin Powell's account of a crash north east of Camp David. I chalked up as a mix up, error, or phantom flight but the NORAD tapes appear to confirm his statements. I'm also trying to reason how this confirmation of Powell's account matches with the Shanksville crash scenario.

[T.A.M.]

if anyone brings up a quote from the tapes, I will merely say/ask...

"are you an ATC past or present? If not, take it to one."

TAM:)

[Swing Dangler]

I haven't heard the tapes, but if this quote is accurate:



This doesn't automatically mean it exploded and then went down. From what I understand, when pilots or air traffic controllers say a plane is down, that could mean it landed safely. I think in this instance, he could be saying the plane is down, and it has exploded.

Sound reasonable? Is that spin?

Sounds reasonable to me considering the order in which the statements appear and with a bomb on board it isn't unreasonable to suggest it went down and then exploded. The location of the plane brings up some interesting discussion points. ;)

[Drudgewire]

How might we interpret this:

"Fu** he's got it! Give me callsign, give me whole 9 yards.
United 93, got a bomb? Going from where to where.
Bomb on board, United 93, out of Boston?
Intercept! and divert that aircraft away from there.
AIRCRAFT OVER THE WHITEHOUSE

What is it? .. FIFTH AEROPLANE!! .. Cleveland!
negative clearance to fire. ID TYPE TAIL.


93 is down north east of Camp David confirmed.
He exploded, he exploded."
We MIGHT interpret it as Flight 93 not being shot down and instead crash landing as been stated from day one.

Or we might not cherry-pick a quote and make an assumption without hearing the rest of the communications.

Or we might pretend we know exactly what they meant and consider it proof of our stance... oh wait, did I see "we?" That's your side. :p

[Spins]

On this occasion? ;) Ok, I forgive you.
And believe it or not, I can agree with you on your second statement.
What so if people misrepresent a person or take their quotes out of context you don't think this is a reason why conspiracy theories spread on the Internet? I can give you a classic example with regards to 9/11 conspiracy theories, Silverstein and "Pull It".

[Swing Dangler]

What so if people misrepresent a person or take their quotes out of context you don't think this is a reason why conspiracy theories spread on the Internet? I can give you a classic example with regards to 9/11 conspiracy theories, Silverstein and "Pull It".

Dam, Spins, I said I agree with your second statement.

[Swing Dangler]

We MIGHT interpret it as Flight 93 not being shot down and instead crash landing as been stated from day one.

Or we might not cherry-pick a quote and make an assumption without hearing the rest of the communications.

Or we might pretend we know exactly what they meant and consider it proof of our stance... oh wait, did I see "we?" That's your side. :p

Or we could take their statements at face value and confirm them with other reports outside the tapes.

[Spins]

Dam, Spins, I said I agree with your second statement.It's been a long day at work I think I need to go home. :D

[Par]

What so if people misrepresent a person or take their quotes out of context you don't think this is a reason why conspiracy theories spread on the Internet? I can give you a classic example with regards to 9/11 conspiracy theories, Silverstein and "Pull It".


Somewhat ironic. Sort it out, Spins!

[stanleywinthrop]

Tam, what kind of conjecture can you take from 93 exploding and going down east of Camp David??
I'm curious to know how you can spin this into it not exploding and going down. On the other hand, I thought 93 went down in Shanksville?;)

I'm a little confused by you here, swing. Are you saying that Shanksville isn't northeast of Camp David?

[Spins]

Somewhat ironic. Sort it out, Spins!
I'm not used to him agreeing with me, it's freaking me out.

[SDC]

I'm a little confused by you here, swing. Are you saying that Shanksville isn't northeast of Camp David?

SwingDangler has repeatedly, on this thread, referred to "east of Camp David," while the original message from which he got this refers to "north east."

Last I checked those were separate points of the compass, but heck, what do I know?

Bye.

[Swing Dangler]

I'm not used to him agreeing with me, it's freaking me out.

;) Have a tankard on me, Spins and I will get back with you on Monday.

[Swing Dangler]

SwingDangler has repeatedly, on this thread, referred to "east of Camp David," while the original message from which he got this refers to "north east."

Last I checked those were separate points of the compass, but heck, what do I know?

Bye.

Wrong, it wasn't repeatedly, it was once. And for you, I will edit that comment.

[Par]

SwingDangler has repeatedly, on this thread, referred to "east of Camp David," while the original message from which he got this refers to "north east." Last I checked those were separate points of the compass, but heck, what do I know?


I think that’s the fourth time so far that he’s deliberately misquoted or misinterpreted parts of the recordings.

[Swing Dangler]

I think that’s the fourth time so far that he’s deliberately misquoted or misinterpreted parts of the recordings.

Source?

Also, will this be the first or last time you lie about me?

[Myriad]

Shanksville is ENE of Camp David.

Not particularly close to Camp David, but not that far either, at jet speeds.

So, how plausible is it that military personnel, dealing with an event that included an attack on Washington DC, would use Camp David as the nearest reference point to Shanksville, as opposed to say Pittsburgh that was a bit closer but in the opposite direction from where the plane was heading? Seems pretty plausible to me. There's not much else of strategic interest in between.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[beachnut]

Anyone have any interpretation of this quote:



If American 11 is the original, then who is N334AA? If the original guy is still airborne, who is not airborne?
Are they discussing two different planes? If
If so that could make things interesting....
Actually, it means the dolts from LC will continue to make up stuff with this new source of junk. With out the ability to think rationally, logically, or with informed knowledge and judgment we will see posts like yours with veiled attempt to twist 9/11 some more. Join, them rejoice with them as they show the whole world how a few idiots have drifted off into the world of stupid.

So far I have read statements that mean nothing. When the young idiots start making up conclusion, or implying conclusions, we will see why young adults die from accidents more than any other group of humans. They do not have experience, they lack knowledge and they fail to exercise proper judgment.

As LC takes us back to the confused world of 9/11, we will see posts like yours stating stupid stuff that can only make sense after the even is sorted out. I now watch as you reverse 9/11 and try to undo history with LC. Incredibly dumb stuff will be posted by LC, and this is now a good indicator of the lack of rational thought and logic in truthers. Your post shows the lack of knowledge and experience as you go back and try to raise questions in reverse. As you fail to recognize how much confusion there is on 9/11 and how many wrong things were said, and now repeated by you with out even doing a grain or research. Please do not ask dumb questions. Try to answer your own questions and if you must go through the bs of confusion do so with some judgment and research.

RESEARCH! N334AA IS THE TAIL NUMBER SO THE FIGHTER PILOTS CAN SHOOT DOWN THE RIGHT PLANE AFTER THEY SEE THE IDIOT TERRORIST IN THE COCKPIT! What do you think the plane has on it, Flight 11? If this is your best research effort you should go home and hang it up.

RESEARCH IS THE KEY, ASKING DUMB QUESTION IS A RED FLAG OF STUPID AND IS ONLY USED BY TRUTHERS TO HIDE THEIR INABILITY TO RESEARCH AND USE LOGICAL, RATIONAL THINKING BASED ON FACTS.

[defaultdotxbe]

Not at all. I've read Collin Powell's account of a crash north east of Camp David. I chalked up as a mix up, error, or phantom flight but the NORAD tapes appear to confirm his statements. I'm also trying to reason how this confirmation of Powell's account matches with the Shanksville crash scenario.
not necessarily, what id powell source for hearing of a crash north east of camp david? if he heard it from NORAD this cant be considered confirmation because its the same source

this is another way conpiracy theories spread, people claiming a story is confirmed without checking that the sources are in fact independent, same thing happened with the f93 landing in cleveland thing, truthers cite 3-4 newspapers reporting a different time than delta 1989 and claiming confirmation that something landed there, closer inspection reveals all 4 newspapers were simply reprinting the same AP story

[beachnut]

Tam, what kind of conjecture can you take from 93 exploding and going down north east of Camp David??
I'm curious to know how you can spin this into it not exploding and going down. On the other hand, I thought 93 went down in Shanksville?;)
Since the whole plane is in the ground, the white plane asked by ATC to look for 93, saw the crater and said the plane exploded. This is an easy question. Being in the AF, being a trained accident investigator, the exploded statement is understandable since untrained people seeing flight 93 impact would not understand a 600 mph impact, but it does look like an explosion, and the plane sure did explode into the ground. If you want to see an explosion like this take any object at 600 mph and put something in its way. (Flight 93 is a classic high speed hit angle aircraft hit. Go to join the AF and learn how to be an accident investigator and see how to get a whole plane and many people in a tiny little space with an impact equal to 2200 pounds of TNT; you could call that an Explosion; what do you think?)

So we have the white corporate jet asked by ATC to take a look for 93, he sees the fires and the plane is gone, we have exploded.

boy your questions rival a 3 years olds quest to have mom talk more, carry on

Camp David is east southeast of flight 93 crash at 81.27 miles, or so. That makes Flight 93 81 miles west northwest of Camp David. But only 63 miles from Pittsburgh, which lines up with Camp David and Flight 93. They all line up, it is the first time in history a plane has crashed 81 miles from Camp David and 63 miles from Pittsburgh on a straight line. Now you know the rest of the.... lack of research again

[Sabrina]

A plane going down and also described as "exploded" aren't mutually exclusive. I'd describe a good portion of the plane crashes I've seen as appearing to be "exploded"; that doesn't mean they were shot down. It just means that the plane is in pieces as far as I can tell. I think it's perfectly logical.

[Mince]

I'm sure this has been posted already, but I reprint it here for reflection.


http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=14767&st=150&#last

Page 4


by Dylan Avery

There was no stand down order.

[funk de fino]

Anyone have any interpretation of this quote:



If American 11 is the original, then who is N334AA? If the original guy is still airborne, who is not airborne?
Are they discussing two different planes? If
If so that could make things interesting....

Please tell me that you are not that stupid?

This is very basic schoolboy stuff SD

[Drudgewire]

I'm sure this has been posted already, but I reprint it here for reflection.


http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=14767&st=150&#last

Page 4
Am I the only one who gets a sense of Dylan really struggling with this in that thread? As if listening to these tapes is putting a human side on the people it was once easy to nonchalantly toss into the conspiracy?

I'm not saying he'd ever turn his back on the movement, but there are a lot of "what if" paths you can't go down if you take NORAD out of the equation.

[Calcas]

I'm sure this has been posted already, but I reprint it here for reflection.


http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=14767&st=150&#last

Page 4

Dylan also admits that neither Norad nor the controllers were "in on it."

But, he uses that as an introduction to this statement.

"A very small handful of people were "in on it" That's why I get offended when people tell me I'm implicating hundreds of thousands of innocent people."

Dylan getting offended. Sounds like Stundie material...

[Calcas]

Am I the only one who gets a sense of Dylan really struggling with this in that thread? As if listening to these tapes is putting a human side on the people it was once easy to nonchalantly toss into the conspiracy?

I'm not saying he'd ever turn his back on the movement, but there are a lot of "what if" paths you can't go down if you take NORAD out of the equation.


I've noticed a little bit of that too. Some of the real hard core twoofers are getting upset. They just banned Lyte and Merc permanently the other day.

LC:FC=Dylan lite?

[rwguinn]

Shanksville is ENE of Camp David.

Not particularly close to Camp David, but not that far either, at jet speeds.

So, how plausible is it that military personnel, dealing with an event that included an attack on Washington DC, would use Camp David as the nearest reference point to Shanksville, as opposed to say Pittsburgh that was a bit closer but in the opposite direction from where the plane was heading? Seems pretty plausible to me. There's not much else of strategic interest in between.

Respectfully,
Myriad
Or to phrase it so maybe twoo-woo ers can understand,The Military used the nearest likely target (Camp David, the President of the United States retreat/home/office) which the weapon (a loaded airplane) was aimed toward, as opposed to Pittsburgh, which is behind the weapon?

[Dr Harry Rein]

So, this is what we have to look forward to for awhile.

A bunch of 15 year-olds, with too much time on their hands, pouring over these tapes, looking for 'clues', cherry-picking quotes, without the foggiest notion of what they are really listening to. Not getting it the fact that during the critical, confusing day of Sep 11, not everybody had all the information, people make verbal mistakes, and for this reason, first reports always have to be taken with a grain of salt.

Do you really think it's important whether or not Shanksville is east, or north-east of Camp David? This is minutiae. This is what is important: Plane wreckage, including passenger remains and black boxes, were recovered. People died there.

[Swing Dangler]

A plane going down and also described as "exploded" aren't mutually exclusive. I'd describe a good portion of the plane crashes I've seen as appearing to be "exploded"; that doesn't mean they were shot down. It just means that the plane is in pieces as far as I can tell. I think it's perfectly logical.

A shoot down also makes perfect sense to me or a bomb going off in the plane which would account for the miles wide debris field.

Since the whole plane is in the ground, the white plane asked by ATC to look for 93, saw the crater and said the plane exploded.
White plane source from the NORAD tapes?

Not necessarily, what id powell source for hearing of a crash north east of camp david? if he heard it from NORAD this cant be considered confirmation because its the same source
Excellent question as to the source of Powell, Fleisher's, and a CBS news report, Arlington After Action Report as well as the 9/11 Com report that commented on that crash site. The FAA new pretty precisely where 93 crashed: Command Center: O.K. Uh, there is now on that United 93.
FAA Headquarters: Yes.
Command Center: There is a report of black smoke in the last position I gave you, fifteen miles south of Johnstown.
FAA Headquarters: From the airplane or from the ground?
Command Center: Uh, they're speculating it's from the aircraft.
FAA Headquarters: Okay.
Command Center: Uh, who, it hit the ground. That's what they're speculating, that's speculation only.
Source: 9/11 Commission Report

Granted it could all be just one big mix up but it makes for excellent discussion either way.

[SDC]

Wrong, it wasn't repeatedly, it was once. And for you, I will edit that comment.

It's bad form to go back and explain, but since my comment (actual reference to "north east" vs S.Dangler's change of that to "east") seems trivial, I'd like to say a little more. It occured to me that S.Dangler's change in stated directions, especially discussing a plane so close to DC and the evident (from the tapes) confusion on Sept 11, could be a deliberate attempt on S.Dangler's part to confuse the issue, which then would live on in the discussion; that's why I felt it was worth pointing it out. I wasn't just being a pedant. And I'm glad he corrected it. No doubt I was wrong in my suspicion.

I've never flown a plane -- and never will, if I have anything to say about it -- but I would guess that whether one went east, east by northeast, or northeast in a jet traveling 500 mph or more would quickly make an enormous difference. Not a trivial one at all.

Re-bye.

[Reheat]

A shoot down also makes perfect sense to me or a bomb going off in the plane which would account for the miles wide debris field.

Just how many miles was that debris field, again? What was in it away from the crash site?

Granted it could all be just one big mix up but it makes for excellent discussion either way.

Excellent discussion ONLY to a Troofer.:mad:

[Dr Harry Rein]

A shoot down also makes perfect sense to me or a bomb going off in the plane which would account for the miles wide debris field.

The FDR was recovered from Flight 93. There is no evidence of a shootdown or a bomb exploding.

[Mince]

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=14767&st=100


by the wonderful, indelible Pdoh


These tapes are looking like they disprove a stand down order. The fighters were being told to shoot down planes if they didnt respond



Gee, you see how you can be wrong when you make unsubstantiated claims? At least he has the (minor) manhood to admit it.

[boloboffin]

I am certainly NOT looking forward to people pouring over every single word in all 120 hours of this thing asking "hmmmmm. What did he mean by that?"

Keep them busy and esoteric. An esoteric truther is the debunker's best friend. In the meantime, get the tapes so you can verify and dismantle when the inevitable misunderstandings arise.

Already, we've got woodybox at DU saying that Flight 11 was in the air after the North Tower crash, and that it was no phantom.

[Par]

Source?

Suggesting a distinction between “N334AA” and “Flight 11”; “they knew what they were doing” becomes “they knew what they wanted us to do”; “north-east” becomes “north”; “exploded” becomes “exploded then went down”; etc.

Also, will this be the first or last time you lie about me?

Question begging question; false dichotomy.

[beachnut]

A shoot down also makes perfect sense to me or a bomb going off in the plane which would account for the miles wide debris field.

White plane source from the NORAD tapes?

Excellent question as to the source of Powell, Fleisher's, and a CBS news report, Arlington After Action Report as well as the 9/11 Com report that commented on that crash site. The FAA new pretty precisely where 93 crashed: Command Center: O.K. Uh, there is now on that United 93.
FAA Headquarters: Yes.
Command Center: There is a report of black smoke in the last position I gave you, fifteen miles south of Johnstown.
FAA Headquarters: From the airplane or from the ground?
Command Center: Uh, they're speculating it's from the aircraft.
FAA Headquarters: Okay.
Command Center: Uh, who, it hit the ground. That's what they're speculating, that's speculation only.
Source: 9/11 Commission Report

Granted it could all be just one big mix up but it makes for excellent discussion either way.
There was no miles of debris indicative of a bomb or shoot down, you have to get better at this or you are lost.

It hurts to see so much stupid being dredged up at LCF and by people who can not do simple research. Even Dylan is twisting the tapes to fit his made up ideas on 9/11, to fit his fictional video. NORAD tapes to me become the litmus paper to find out who is a fact less truther and who is a rational thinker. What color are you?

When will you come up with facts? BTW, were is Camp David, what direction from Flight 93 impact. Can you even get the trivia junk right?

You missed the tail number and ignore it. Why not correct your mistakes as you go?

[T.A.M.]

These tapes are the equivalent of 10,000 puzzle pieces thrown on the floor, and the picture box thrown out...now try to solve the puzzle.

TAM:)

[Digest]

These tapes are the equivalent of 10,000 puzzle pieces thrown on the floor, and the picture box thrown out...now try to solve the puzzle.

TAM:)

on it.

[Drudgewire]

on it.
And doing a fantastic job. Thank you. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/patriot.gif

[Reality Believer]

These tapes are the equivalent of 10,000 puzzle pieces thrown on the floor, and the picture box thrown out...now try to solve the puzzle.

TAM:)

But with 3 pieces missing, so the whole picture is incomplete. Conspiracy!

[funk de fino]

Anyone have any interpretation of this quote:


If American 11 is the original, then who is N334AA? If the original guy is still airborne, who is not airborne?
Are they discussing two different planes? If
If so that could make things interesting....


again, address this stupidity by admitting your howler

this is very easy stuff

if you get this wrong it would probably not be wise to continue down this path you are treading

[Peephole]

I guess this is audio from several sources? Is it from the whole day or only the crucial hours?

[ref]

I must admit, I was both wrong and right.

I was wrong in stating, that all they do is look for some stand-down implications at LCF. Dylan admitted there was no stand-down. Great. I'm happy to be wrong this way. He said not NORAD nor the controllers were in on it. Great.

But.

He now says excercises were still going on, and false blips were still on NORAD screens. He seems to be happy.

Mark Roberts is wroooooooooooooooooooooooong.

Mwahaha.

"I've got Cheyenne Mountain on the line...terminating all exercise inputs."

This is ~100 minutes after the attacks started at 8:46.

I wish I knew where the original post of his was so I could dig it up and make this **** my new signature. :lol:

But, like Digest already explained:

your reading way to much into "excercise inputs" - these are simply the call signs assigned to the planes and groups within the training. All they are aying is return to normal call signs to avoid any confusion. the exercises were already over - however they were still using exercise inputs because thats how everything was listed at the stations when the attacks began. If you dont understand what i mean let me know ill explain further.


I'm happy he's going in a right direction. Soon, he will have nothing to back up his conspiracy anymore. But we are not there yet. He is still an idiot, who seems to shine and smile every time he thinks he found some new "evidence" of mass murder. I'll be more than happy to assist all rational people in destroying these conspiracy fantasies. I can't wait to get my projects finished and starting new ones.

[T.A.M.]

Were there not exercises going on north of the USA, but still under the direction of NORAD, something to do with Russian movements??? Am I wrong? Could this be the "exercise" they were cancelling??

TAM:)

[Hyperviolet]

I find the NORAD details to be the most confusing, i'll be surprised if i can make head nor tail of the tapes.

I'm curious to see what our own Norad Ninja has to contribute to the OP.

[Dumb All Over]

I've listened to a number of hours now. I'm not an expert in this area. They keep referring to the term Mod3. The context of its usage would indicate it has something to do with transponders.

Since the hijackers turned off the transponders, I would assume this is why no Mod3 signals are being detected. Is this correct? Would one of you experts here mind chiming-in and explaining what Mod3 is? Thanks.

Also, if I'm hearing correctly, maybe United 93 didn't immediately turn off its transponder and might have been giving off a Mod3 signal for some time. Does that sound right?

[Calcas]

I've listened to a number of hours now. I'm not an expert in this area. They keep referring to the term Mod3. The context of its usage would indicate it has something to do with transponders.

Since the hijackers turned off the transponders, I would assume this is why no Mod3 signals are being detected. Is this correct? Would one of you experts here mind chiming-in and explaining what Mod3 is? Thanks.

Also, if I'm hearing correctly, maybe United 93 didn't immediately turn off its transponder and might have been giving off a Mod3 signal for some time. Does that sound right?

You are correct about Mod3 referring to the transponders. The word is actually "mode" but I wouldn't doubt if some pronounce it as "mod."

Here is a short explanation but read the whole page to get a better idea.

"There have been a number of modes used historically, but four are in common use today: mode 1 mode 2 mode 3/A, and mode C. Mode 1 is used by sort military targets during phases of a mission. Mode 2 is used to identify military aircraft missions. Mode 3/A is used to identify each aircraft in the radar's coverage area. Mode C is used to request an aircraft's altitude."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_traffic_control_radar_beacon_system

[stanleywinthrop]

I've listened to a number of hours now. I'm not an expert in this area. They keep referring to the term Mod3. The context of its usage would indicate it has something to do with transponders.

Since the hijackers turned off the transponders, I would assume this is why no Mod3 signals are being detected. Is this correct? Would one of you experts here mind chiming-in and explaining what Mod3 is? Thanks.

Also, if I'm hearing correctly, maybe United 93 didn't immediately turn off its transponder and might have been giving off a Mod3 signal for some time. Does that sound right?

You are correct Mode 3 is the IFF transponder used for IFR flight in the U.S. (and most of the world for that matter). It is composed of two signals, a position component (Mode 3) and an altitude component (3/C) A mode 3 'squawk' is a 4 digit number assigned by ATC. The transponder transmits when it is interrogated by a signal from an ATC radar. Depending on the type of ATC radar, every 12 seconds the ATC radar sweeps the sky and every transponder within range responds with it's 4 digit code and altitude.

[Dumb All Over]

Thanks, you guys, very much. I'm learning. I didn't think I was going to be able to listen to these things and understand what was going on. But, already they have left an impression on me. My immediate impression is that our military acted quickly and professionally to do anything and everything humanly possible to stop these terrorists. I have no doubt that had the terrorist pilot of United 93 not crashed the plane, it would have been intercepted and shot down.

[Reheat]

While we're on the subject of transponders, no one has mentioned the real IFF portion of the IFF/SIF feature of these gadgets. The IFF portion is Mode 4. It's used by the military only as the IFF (Identification Friend/Foe). It probably won't be mentioned in the tapes, so this is just an FYI to add to the repertory of knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_Friend_or_Foe

[funk de fino]

yes, and if you want to know what happens when this Mode fails, look no further than the RAF tornado brought down by the US patriots in Iraq

Not slagging the Patriot system cause it probably saved my ass in Desert Storm

[Sabrina]

I think I knew the guy who did that; he might've been in my OBC class. He was really broken up about it, from what I heard; I think he got out pretty soon thereafter.

Please do not quote me on that though; I'm only repeating what I heard from colleagues at the time without any corroboration.

[gumboot]

Thanks to whoever brought up the topic of these tapes, and though odd, a huge thank you to Dylan Avery for posting these tapes up. This is even more than the Vanity Fair FOIA request acquired. I'm getting the tapes now (23.5% done) and look forward to trawling my way through all 120hrs, though it will take a while!

This is what I have been waiting for. Now I can start making an audio-visual version of my NORAD article. Just need some stock news footage from the day and generic aircraft footage etc.

-Gumboot

[defaultdotxbe]

yes, and if you want to know what happens when this Mode fails, look no further than the RAF tornado brought down by the US patriots in Iraq

Not slagging the Patriot system cause it probably saved my ass in Desert Storm
silly brits, flying into our missiles

[Dumb All Over]

BTW- Much on most of the tapes is just dead air. You won't need to listen to anything nearing 120 hours. Even so, there's still a lot to listen to.

[Par]

silly brits, flying into our missiles


What the devil? By George.

[Digest]

the one you can notice is that - contrary to my former belief we did have a lot of planes up - they had tracks going over most major cities in the eastern US - the issue they had with this was they didnt have to many planes that were armed - either with guns or aim9s

Were there not exercises going on north of the USA, but still under the direction of NORAD, something to do with Russian movements??? Am I wrong? Could this be the "exercise" they were cancelling??

TAM
Im not sure about this TAM - there has been chatter of planes coming in from Canada but nothing I have heard so far confirms exercises North of US airspace

Again the inputs the LC are refering to are designations to the particular aircraft - the exercises were not going on during the attack

I'm about 20% done with my first listen as a update

[Sabrina]

I do have to wonder about the exercise that was supposed to be going on that day. I'd be interested to know if they had actual PLANES that were involved in the exercise about Russian movements, or if it was just mock radar tracks in the NORAD tracking area. Not to mention, who's to say, even if they had planes, that the planes would have been armed? In an exercise, as far as I know, that's HIGHLY unlikely.

[Digest]

exercises are pretty common - especially for the NORAD guys - i mean prior to 9/11 it was a monotonus job - be they with real planes or just mock tracks -

It seems through listening so far that there was a mixture between mock tracks (possibly the hostiles) and real fighters -And I agree 100% planes within the exercise were Almost 100% not armed - as they had to be landed to arm with 2X2 and ammo in one case i have heard on the NORAD tapes

[boloboffin]

Thanks to whoever brought up the topic of these tapes, and though odd, a huge thank you to Dylan Avery for posting these tapes up. This is even more than the Vanity Fair FOIA request acquired. I'm getting the tapes now (23.5% done) and look forward to trawling my way through all 120hrs, though it will take a while!

This is what I have been waiting for. Now I can start making an audio-visual version of my NORAD article. Just need some stock news footage from the day and generic aircraft footage etc.

-Gumboot

Aw, dang. And I just removed the torrent after I had seeded 200%. I'd hook back up, but I'm at work now. Well, as I recall, the swarm is well supported. It only took me 20 hours to get the full file, and another 20 to get to a 2:1 ratio. :eye-poppi

[Reheat]

I do have to wonder about the exercise that was supposed to be going on that day. I'd be interested to know if they had actual PLANES that were involved in the exercise about Russian movements, or if it was just mock radar tracks in the NORAD tracking area. Not to mention, who's to say, even if they had planes, that the planes would have been armed? In an exercise, as far as I know, that's HIGHLY unlikely.

The exercise responding to the Russian exercise involved the movement of assets. Yes, I'd guess they were armed, but that did not affect their Air Defense Alert requirement. I believe those aircraft were in Alaska and perhaps Iceland. The other exercise was a CPX which means it was a COMMAND POST exercise.

As has been said numerous times already, the exercises DID NOT (except in a positive way) affect the NORAD response on 9/11. It was a non-issue regardless of what "troofers" say or imply by their misunderstanding of how the "real world" works and/or their misunderstand/misinterpretation/distortion of the Norad tapes.

[Reheat]

It seems through listening so far that there was a mixture between mock tracks (possibly the hostiles) and real fighters -And I agree 100% planes within the exercise were Almost 100% not armed - as they had to be landed to arm with 2X2 and ammo in one case i have heard on the NORAD tapes

There would have been only 14 aircraft armed and on alert on 9/11. The remainder would not have been armed. You do realize they put up over 300 aircraft by the end of the day, don't you? Some were fully armed, some partially, and some not armed except for the Fox-4 RAM option.

[Digest]

There would have been only 14 aircraft armed and on alert on 9/11. The remainder would not have been armed. You do realize they put up over 300 aircraft by the end of the day, don't you? Some were fully armed, some partially, and some not armed except for the Fox-4 RAM option.

yep i was just stating a particular response that they landed a group and tried to arm them as they needed more "ready" planes in the air.

my experience with the com chatter is limited to SOF squad interaction and airsupport- so even some of the jargon escapes me but I am getting inputs from ATC guys on anything that stumps me

[Reheat]

my experience with the com chatter is limited to SOF squad interaction and airsupport- so even some of the jargon escapes me but I am getting inputs from ATC guys on anything that stumps me

PM me if you need something interpreted that they can't answer.

[gumboot]

I do have to wonder about the exercise that was supposed to be going on that day. I'd be interested to know if they had actual PLANES that were involved in the exercise about Russian movements, or if it was just mock radar tracks in the NORAD tracking area. Not to mention, who's to say, even if they had planes, that the planes would have been armed? In an exercise, as far as I know, that's HIGHLY unlikely.



The NORAD exercise underway during the week of 9/11 was a Vigilant Overview type exercise which is a CPX or Command Post Exercise and does not include any operational units or aircraft (with the possible exception of the E4-B airborne command post platforms).

The "Russian movements" were not an exercise at all. The Russian Airforce was undertaking a major bomber exercise in Northern Siberia, and in response NORAD undertook "Operation Northern Vigilance" which moved operational forces into readiness to shadow the Russian exercise and respond in the event of the exercise being a pretext for an attack. This has been standard practice since the 1950's for both the USA and the USSR/Russian Federation. The key thing to note is this was NOT an exercise - it was a real world operation. It did not involve NORAD's standard 14 air defense aircraft on alert. Once the attacks started the Russians cancelled the exercise, freeing up the 300+ fighters in Alaska and Iceland to provide air defense to the USA.

-Gumboot

[Digest]

PM me if you need something interpreted that they can't answer.

thanks for the offer =)

[gumboot]

Im not sure about this TAM - there has been chatter of planes coming in from Canada but nothing I have heard so far confirms exercises North of US airspace


Operation Northern Vigilance would have been in Alaska Region airspace and thus unlikely to have been mentioned on these tapes which are from North East Air Defense Sector (NEADS) in Contiguous US Region (CONR).

The only command centre likely to be dealing with both Northern Vigilance and the 9/11 attacks was NORAD HQ itself at Cheyenne Mountain. This could perhaps explain why General Arnold (CONR) gave Colonel Marr (NEADS) a scramble order without authorisation (but probably not).

-Gumboot

[Reheat]

Operation Northern Vigilance would have been in Alaska Region airspace and thus unlikely to have been mentioned on these tapes which are from North East Air Defense Sector (NEADS) in Contiguous US Region (CONR).

The only command centre likely to be dealing with both Northern Vigilance and the 9/11 attacks was NORAD HQ itself at Cheyenne Mountain. This could perhaps explain why General Arnold (CONR) gave Colonel Marr (NEADS) a scramble order without authorisation (but probably not).

-Gumboot

You, of course, are correct about the Operation and Exercise. However, I need a clarification. I understood that some of the tapes are from Cheyenne Mountain, is that true or not? Are they ONLY from NEADS?

[Reheat]

Gumboot, I'm not familiar with current practices regarding Scrambles. You have said that the SD (Major Fox) talked directly to the Fighters for the Scramble. Since that is done via UHF which is line of sight, how does he do that? Do they have relays now? In years past the Scramble information was passed to a Duty Officer at the unit who then passed the info to the Fighters. Of course, as soon as they know there is a Scramble order coming in the pilots are notified and begin their response. They either go to the aircraft and get the info while taxiing or if in the cockpit they get a go light and start engines or engine and get the Scramble info while taxiing again. The point is they don't wait for the full Scramble message before acting.

The first time they talked to the Region was after airborne and commencing the Intercept after hand off from the ATC unit, of course. Has that changed?

[gumboot]

You, of course, are correct about the Operation and Exercise. However, I need a clarification. I understood that some of the tapes are from Cheyenne Mountain, is that true or not? Are they ONLY from NEADS?


To be honest I don't know. The labeling on the files is not obvious to those not in the know. Some are pretty clear - the ones saying MCC being relating to the Mission Crew Commander and the ones with ID being the ID Techs, but perhaps someone had provide names for all of the tracks?

MCC Op - Mission Crew Commander
MCC TK - Mission Crew Commander
TT Op (x2) - (Tactical Trackers?)
TT TK (x3) - (Tactical Trackers?)
ACWO TK
AST Op
AST TK
SD2 Op
SD2 TK
AICC
Emerg-AICC
ID Op - ID Techs
ID TK - ID Techs
ID2 Op - ID Techs
ID2 TK - ID Techs

Not sure what "Ops" and "TK" refers to - perhaps communications to the Ops Floor and communications to outside the Ops floor.

So anyone want to take a stab? I'm guessing somewhere in there we'll have outside phonelines, such as to Boston ARTCC as well as comms in the Battle Cab and of course the Weapons Team (led by Major "Foxy" Fox). Anyone familiar with the abbreviations may be able to shed some light.

Once I have all 18 tracks downloaded I might see if I can match them all up in sound editing software to make a single approx 6hr recording.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Gumboot, I'm not familiar with current practices regarding Scrambles. You have said that the SD (Major Fox) talked directly to the Fighters for the Scramble. Since that is done via UHF which is line of sight, how does he do that? Do they have relays now? In years past the Scramble information was passed to a Duty Officer at the unit who then passed the info to the Fighters. Of course, as soon as they know there is a Scramble order coming in the pilots are notified and begin their response. They either go to the aircraft and get the info while taxiing or if in the cockpit they get a go light and start engines or engine and get the Scramble info while taxiing again. The point is they don't wait for the full Scramble message before acting.

The first time they talked to the Region was after airborne and commencing the Intercept after hand off from the ATC unit, of course. Has that changed?


The actual scramble orders would be issued to the Duty Officer at the base, not to the pilots themselves. A-Train wanted to know, through their flight, who was in control of the pilots. I explained that NEADS were. In the NORAD tapes the pilots can be heard numerous times communicating directly with Major Fox. This is not to say that NEADS staff personally told them to take off - the pilots are scrambled by the light on the alert barn turning from red to green, which in turn is done by staff at the base.

The stuff we have so far from the Vanity Fair article suggests the pilots dialed in to communicate with NEADS once approaching the Z-point:

9:34:12
NAVY A.T.C.: You’ve got [the fighters] moving east in airspace. Now you want ‘em to go to Baltimore?
HUCKABONE: Yes, sir. We’re not gonna take ‘em in Whiskey 386 [military training airspace over the ocean].
NAVY A.T.C.: O.K., once he goes to Baltimore, what are we supposed to do?
HUCKABONE: Have him contact us on auxiliary frequency 2-3-4 decimal 6. Instead of taking handoffs to us and us handing ‘em back, just tell Center they’ve got to go to Baltimore.
NAVY A.T.C.: All right, man. Stand by. We’ll get back to you.
CITINO: What do you mean, “We’ll get back to you”? Just do it!
HUCKABONE: I’m gonna choke that guy!
CITINO: Be very professional, Huck.
HUCKABONE: O.K.
CITINO: All right, Huck. Let’s get our act together here.

-Gumboot

[Dumb All Over]

At one point, there is much confusion about a plane coming from Canada. They believed it was another hijacked plane and said it was heading for Washington. Later, they figured this information was false.

[gumboot]

At one point, there is much confusion about a plane coming from Canada. They believed it was another hijacked plane and said it was heading for Washington. Later, they figured this information was false.


The day was full of false alarms. IIRC there were eleven hijacking reports fielded to NEADS in the first 90 minutes of the attack.

-Gumboot

[Reheat]

To be honest I don't know. The labeling on the files is not obvious to those not in the know. Some are pretty clear - the ones saying MCC being relating to the Mission Crew Commander and the ones with ID being the ID Techs, but perhaps someone had provide names for all of the tracks?

MCC Op - Mission Crew Commander
MCC TK - Mission Crew Commander
TT Op (x2) - (Tactical Trackers?)
TT TK (x3) - (Tactical Trackers?)
ACWO TK
AST Op
AST TK
SD2 Op
SD2 TK
AICC
Emerg-AICC
ID Op - ID Techs
ID TK - ID Techs
ID2 Op - ID Techs
ID2 TK - ID Techs

Not sure what "Ops" and "TK" refers to - perhaps communications to the Ops Floor and communications to outside the Ops floor.

So anyone want to take a stab? I'm guessing somewhere in there we'll have outside phonelines, such as to Boston ARTCC as well as comms in the Battle Cab and of course the Weapons Team (led by Major "Foxy" Fox). Anyone familiar with the abbreviations may be able to shed some light.

Once I have all 18 tracks downloaded I might see if I can match them all up in sound editing software to make a single approx 6hr recording.

-Gumboot

Those are references to Communication POSITIONS not people. I can only guess at a few that you haven't guessed already.... Some of those would be referring to Telephone lines and others to UHF or VHF Radio lines. I'll look at it some more and add later if the light bulb works........

ACWO - AirCraft Weapons Officer?
SD - Senior Director
AICC - Air Intercept Control Console?

That's all for now. I am familiar with the system in which only Officers (not Enlisted) controlled the fighters. However, the only Officers who seem to be in the area are Maj Nasypany and Maj Fox with Col Marr in the Battle Cab.

Apparently, the Guard operates differently than the active USAF did which doesn't surprise me at all.

[Dumb All Over]

Can anybody tell me what the terms "Huntress" and "Giant Killer" refer to?

[Reheat]

The actual scramble orders would be issued to the Duty Officer at the base, not to the pilots themselves.

Yes, that checks with what I thought.

A-Train wanted to know, through their flight, who was in control of the pilots. I explained that NEADS were. In the NORAD tapes the pilots can be heard numerous times communicating directly with Major Fox. This is not to say that NEADS staff personally told them to take off - the pilots are scrambled by the light on the alert barn turning from red to green, which in turn is done by staff at the base.

Yes, I agree. They do have more than one radio, but wouldn't always be within range of communicating with NEADS (at lower altitude, for example). There are UHF relays along the coast, but they are not always within direct communications range of those except at a higher altitude.

Of course, NEADS is in control of the Fighters, but that may be done indirectly via the ATC facility controlling the affected airspace. We must keep in mind that the ATC facility MUST deconflict the Fighters with other traffic until they can clear the sky for them (if needed).

The stuff we have so far from the Vanity Fair article suggests the pilots dialed in to communicate with NEADS once approaching the Z-point:

That is going to vary depending entirely on the circumstances. If the route is clear with no conflicting traffic the ATC facility could turn the Fighters over to NEADS at any time they felt it was safe to do so. The reverse is true also, if the situation is URGENT, NEADS could take control at any time and everyone ducks and hopes the "big sky" theory works.

Also, remember that this situation was very different than any previous one. The Fighters normally intercept traffic over the Atlantic (where there is little or no traffic) and not over the land mass of the US. On 9/11 everyone (ATC and NORAD) were just handling it as it unfolded. I think they did a commendable job.

[Reheat]

Can anybody tell me what the terms "Huntress" and "Giant Killer" refer to?

Huntress was NEADS. Giant Killer was the Navy ATC facility controlling the area over the Atlantic. That entire area up and down the coast has numerous Warning Areas and MOA's all owned by the Navy.

[Reheat]

The day was full of false alarms. IIRC there were eleven hijacking reports fielded to NEADS in the first 90 minutes of the attack.

-Gumboot

It's important to note that THOSE WERE NOT DUE TO FALSE TRACKS ON NEADS RADAR, they were coming from the FAA.

[Calcas]

This thread is a goldmine of information.

The relevant parts should turn into a sticky when all is said and done.

[gumboot]

Yes, that checks with what I thought.



Yes, I agree. They do have more than one radio, but wouldn't always be within range of communicating with NEADS (at lower altitude, for example). There are UHF relays along the coast, but they are not always within direct communications range of those except at a higher altitude.

Of course, NEADS is in control of the Fighters, but that may be done indirectly via the ATC facility controlling the affected airspace. We must keep in mind that the ATC facility MUST deconflict the Fighters with other traffic until they can clear the sky for them (if needed).



That is going to vary depending entirely on the circumstances. If the route is clear with no conflicting traffic the ATC facility could turn the Fighters over to NEADS at any time they felt it was safe to do so. The reverse is true also, if the situation is URGENT, NEADS could take control at any time and everyone ducks and hopes the "big sky" theory works.

Also, remember that this situation was very different than any previous one. The Fighters normally intercept traffic over the Atlantic (where there is little or no traffic) and not over the land mass of the US. On 9/11 everyone (ATC and NORAD) were just handling it as it unfolded. I think they did a commendable job.



Quite right. The distiction CTers like A-Train can't seem to grasp is the difference between who controls the fighters and who controls the airspace. Except in military areas, the airspace itself is controlled by the FAA, but the actual fighters are controlled by NEADS. Of course that can cause conflict, such as when NEADS send the Otis fighters north of New York but the FAA refused them entry into NY Airspace due to fear of a collision with airliners. Of course at that time AA11 had hit, and NEADS didn't know about UA175.

Later, with the Langley fighters NEADS put a bit more pressure on the FAA to clear the fighters through to Washington DC ASAP.

The main point is, until NORAD implemented SCATANA later in the day, it was always going to be a bit of push and shove between NEADS and the FAA as far as allocating airspace already packed with airliners to the fighters.

Frankly, given the four erratic hijack flights, the grounding of all traffic, and the fighters from both NORAD and independent airfields (like Andrews AFB) it's a miracle there were no mid-air collisions that day.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

It's important to note that THOSE WERE NOT DUE TO FALSE TRACKS ON NEADS RADAR, they were coming from the FAA.


Absolutely. It's a demonstration of how chaotic and confusing such a situation is. Suddenly every communication drop out, wrong transponder code, or unscheduled change of heading (things which no doubt happened dozens of times every day due to technical gliches and what have you) became a potential suicide weapon.

Add to that the ever increasing information lag and the gradual overload of the system, like a snowball growing in size, and you appreciate how difficult the task was for both the FAA and NORAD.

-Gumboot

[Reheat]

Frankly, given the four erratic hijack flights, the grounding of all traffic, and the fighters from both NORAD and independent airfields (like Andrews AFB) it's a miracle there were no mid-air collisions that day.

-Gumboot

Absolutely agree. It is amazing that all of those Airline Flights recovered so quickly without incident. Heck, the Fighters are accustomed to looking outside for traffic, but Airline pilots are not. Once the sky was clear the Fighters didn't really need the FAA anymore as they can deconflict themselves.

The clear skies and quiet comm traffic was a blessing I'm sure, but I suspect there were a lot of bruised hands from banging on canopy rails (perhaps even a few tears) once they realize what had happened and that they were unable to stop it. :(

[LashL]

This thread is a goldmine of information.


It sure is. Many thanks to all of you who have shared your insight, knowledge and expertise.

And I join others in also saying thanks to Dylan for his role in obtaining the data and sharing it on the internet.

[Gravy]

By the way, a book is due out in 2008 about air defense and airline issues on 9/11. The author is Lynn Spencer, an airline pilot. She's done extensive interviews with people involved. Should be a fascinating read. http://www.cleartheskies.com/index.html

[Cheap Shot]

Frankly, given the four erratic hijack flights, the grounding of all traffic, and the fighters from both NORAD and independent airfields (like Andrews AFB) it's a miracle there were no mid-air collisions that day.-Gumboot

Thats what makes this one of the worst days in avaition history, and also one of the best. Give credit to the military and ATC that day, and to our brothers to the North.

Also if you have any questions ATC wise you need answered regarding these tapes feel free to ask, and I'll see if I can help.

[A-Train]

The actual scramble orders would be issued to the Duty Officer at the base, not to the pilots themselves. A-Train wanted to know, through their flight, who was in control of the pilots. I explained that NEADS were. In the NORAD tapes the pilots can be heard numerous times communicating directly with Major Fox. This is not to say that NEADS staff personally told them to take off - the pilots are scrambled by the light on the alert barn turning from red to green, which in turn is done by staff at the base.

You're correct. In the Vanity Fair piece you can hear Fox talking to the fighters-- but that is after 10:00AM, well after questionable time frame when the Langley jets could have intercepted AAL77 but were instead directed east over the Atlantic.

The crux of my question is who was talking to the fighters when they were out over the Atlantic, and who directed them there. It is clear that at that moment, a Navy controller was talking to them, but NEADS wasn't. The "I'm gonna choke that guy" conversation with Huckabone demonstrates that:

Along with Master Sergeant Steve Citino, another controller who is sitting next to him, Huckabone orders a Navy air traffic controller who is handling the fighters to get them turned around. The Navy controller appears not to understand the urgency of the situation. He responds, “You’ve got [the fighters] moving east in airspace. Now you want ‘em to go to Baltimore?” Huckabone replies yes, and says, “Have him contact us on auxiliary frequency 2-3-4 decimal 6. Instead of taking handoffs to us and us handing ‘em back, just tell Center they’ve got to go to Baltimore.” The Navy controller says, “Stand by. We’ll get back to you.” Citino retorts, “What do you mean, ‘We’ll get back to you’? Just do it!” Huckabone jokes, “I’m gonna choke that guy!”The Navy controller clearly is talking to the fighters, but he believes it is NEADS who have sent them out east. NEADS is not talking to the fighters, that's why Huckabone gives them the freq to contact them.

My understanding is that fighters are always talking on two channels: one to talk to the controller-- civilian or military-- who controls the airspace they're in; and the other to talk to their military commanders. Why weren't the Langley pilots talking to NEADS from the get go?

This is not a hostile question. I just want to know if there is a capability for NEADS to talk to the fighters while they are on the ground.

[A-Train]

Quite right. The distiction CTers like A-Train can't seem to grasp is the difference between who controls the fighters and who controls the airspace.

I understand the distinction quite well. What you don't understand is that fighters pursuing a suspect craft will always have total priority over any number of civilian aircraft. No controller will ever refuse airspace to a fighter in that situation. The usual requirement for 5 miles and a thousand feet will be thrown out the window, and controller will settle for "green between," meaning separation of about a mile or so. A controller would not be punished for a separation error in such an emergency situation; but if he refused clearance to scrambling fighter, he'd be in very deep doo-doo.

This is especially true on a VFR day like Sept. 11, 2001.

I think Reheat even agrees with me on this one:

"The reverse is true also, if the situation is URGENT, NEADS could take control at any time and everyone ducks and hopes the "big sky" theory works." -Reheat-----------------------------

Except in military areas, the airspace itself is controlled by the FAA, but the actual fighters are controlled by NEADS. Of course that can cause conflict, such as when NEADS send the Otis fighters north of New York but the FAA refused them entry into NY Airspace due to fear of a collision with airliners. Of course at that time AA11 had hit, and NEADS didn't know about UA175.

As I said above, it is unthinkable that the FAA would refuse entry to scrambling fighter in pursuit of a suspect craft. What probably happened is that after the second crash, there were no more hijacked planes near NYC. The fighters probably requested to "cap" the NYC area, to orbit and patrol the airspace. The FAA refused due to traffic. This is a whole different ball of wax than fighters pursuing a suspect craft.

The main point is, until NORAD implemented SCATANA later in the day, it was always going to be a bit of push and shove between NEADS and the FAA as far as allocating airspace already packed with airliners to the fighters.

Nonsense. No push and shove. If the fighters want airspace, they get whatever they want immediately. They have total priority if they want it. It's a big sky out there, and fighter pilots are skilled enough to easily evade any number of slow moving airliners.

[Reheat]

I just want to know if there is a capability for NEADS to talk to the fighters while they are on the ground.

No, not directly.

[Reheat]

I understand the distinction quite well. What you don't understand is that fighters pursuing a suspect craft will always have total priority over any number of civilian aircraft. No controller will ever refuse airspace to a fighter in that situation. The usual requirement for 5 miles and a thousand feet will be thrown out the window, and controller will settle for "green between," meaning separation of about a mile or so. A controller would not be punished for a separation error in such an emergency situation; but if he refused clearance to scrambling fighter, he'd be in very deep doo-doo.

This is YOUR gobbledegook and amply illustrates that you are not accepting the REALITY that NO ONE KNEW AA11 or UA175 were HOSTILE AIRCRAFT.

Once you get that FACT through your thick "troofer" skull everything else will fall into place.

In fact, AA11 had already crashed (the FAA didn't know that yet) and UA175 crashed while the fighters were enroute. Can't you ever get anything right even by your own timeline?

As I said above, it is unthinkable that the FAA would refuse entry to scrambling fighter in pursuit of a suspect craft.

What you're confusing in your deluded "troofer" mind is the difference between a suspect aircraft and a HOSTILE aircraft. The chase of a suspect aircraft WOULD NOT take priority in a crowded sky.


Nonsense. No push and shove. If the fighters want airspace, they get whatever they want immediately. They have total priority if they want it. It's a big sky out there, and fighter pilots are skilled enough to easily evade any number of slow moving airliners.

More troofer delusion.

[Reheat]

The crux of my question is who was talking to the fighters when they were out over the Atlantic........ It is clear that at that moment, a Navy controller was talking to them, but NEADS wasn't.[/SIZE] The "I'm gonna choke that guy" conversation with Huckabone demonstrates that:

[/SIZE]The Navy controller clearly is talking to the fighters, but he believes it is NEADS who have sent them out east. NEADS is not talking to the fighters, that's why Huckabone gives them the freq to contact them.

You answered your own question. How 'bout you forget about DRG and think for yourself for once. Take a look at Google Earth and see where approximately 30 miles EAST of Langley is. That's about where the Fighters were.

If Huckabone knew about AA77 WHY DID HE ASK GIANT KILLER TO SEND THE FIGHTERS TO BALTIMORE?

My understanding is that fighters are always talking on two channels: one to talk to the controller-- civilian or military-- who controls the airspace they're in; and the other to talk to their military commanders. Why weren't the Langley pilots talking to NEADS from the get go?

The other radio was tuned to NWO Headquarters. Only after they received their instruction from their NWO superiors would they then contact NEADS in order to proceed with the cover-up.

[Spins]

As I said above, it is unthinkable that the FAA would refuse entry to scrambling fighter in pursuit of a suspect craft. What probably happened is that after the second crash, there were no more hijacked planes near NYC. The fighters probably requested to "cap" the NYC area, to orbit and patrol the airspace. The FAA refused due to traffic. This is a whole different ball of wax than fighters pursuing a suspect craft.Where is your source stating that the FAA refused the fighters access to the New York airspace due to traffic?

The Otis fighters lacked a target when they were launched so they were vectored toward military-controlled airspace off the Long Island coast. They did this, yes, to avoid New York area traffic but also because they were uncertain about what to do next, remember they had no target. The fighters then stayed in this "hold as needed" posture from 9:09 to 9:13.

There is a single communication from the weapons director or his technician on the Guard frequency at approximately 9:11, cautioning the Otis fighters: "remain at current position [holding pattern] until FAA requests assistance."

Also at this point NEADS were simultaneously working with a tanker to relocate close to the Otis fighters. This also goes to show how much effort NEADS were putting in to keep these fighters in the air during this period just in case the FAA made a request for assistance because of another confirmed hijacking.

At 9:10, the senior director on the NEADS floor told the weapons director, "I want those fighters closer in." then at 9:10:22, the Otis fighters were told by Boston Center that the second tower had been struck. At 9:12:54, the Otis fighters told their Boston Center controller that they needed to establish a combat air patrol over New York, and they immediately headed for New York City.

Here is the source I'm using from the 9/11 Commission report with information about the relevant audio files used...


FAA audio file, Boston Center, position 31R; NEADS audio file, Mission Crew Commander position, channel 2, 8:58:00; NEADS audio file, Mission Crew Commander position, channel 2, 8:54:55. Because of a technical issue, there are no NEADS recordings available of the NEADS senior weapons director and weapons director technician position responsible for controlling the Otis scramble. We found a single communication from the weapons director or his technician on the Guard frequency at approximately 9:11, cautioning the Otis fighters: "remain at current position [holding pattern] until FAA requests assistance." See NEADS audio file, channel 24. That corresponds to the time after the Otis fighters entered the holding pattern and before they headed for New York. NEADS controllers were simultaneously working with a tanker to relocate close to the Otis fighters. At 9:10, the senior director on the NEADS floor told the weapons director, "I want those fighters closer in." NEADS audio file, Identification Technician position, channel 5. At 9:10:22, the Otis fighters were told by Boston Center that the second tower had been struck. At 9:12:54, the Otis fighters told their Boston Center controller that they needed to establish a combat air patrol over New York, and they immediately headed for New York City. See FAA audio files, Boston Center, position 31R. This series of communications explains why the Otis fighters briefly entered and then soon departed the holding pattern, as the radar reconstruction of their flight shows. DOD radar files, 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron, "9/11 Autoplay," undated.

[A-Train]

Where is your source stating that the FAA refused the fighters access to the New York airspace due to traffic?

My source is gumboot, who apparently got it from Michael Bronner's Vanity Fair piece:

With both towers now in flames, Nasypany wants the fighters over Manhattan immediately, but the weapons techs get "pushback" from civilian F.A.A. controllers, who have final authority over the fighters as long as they are in civilian airspace. The F.A.A. controllers are afraid of fast-moving fighters colliding with a passenger plane, of which there are hundreds in the area, still flying normal routes—the morning's unprecedented order to ground all civilian aircraft has not yet been given.I personally don't believe FAA controllers would have refused fighters anything in this situation. I'd like to hear the recordings of them supposedly doing so to the Otis fighters. Anyone know if this is on the NORAD tapes?

[Spins]

Nonsense. No push and shove. If the fighters want airspace, they get whatever they want immediately. They have total priority if they want it. It's a big sky out there, and fighter pilots are skilled enough to easily evade any number of slow moving airliners.As I pointed out above the Otis fighters had no target, in fact they were only in this "hold as needed" posture off the Long Island coast for 4 minutes (probably less time than it'll take you to source and write your next post ;)) and as you know they were only airborne at 8:52.

We are talking minutes here, the fighters didn't just beam to these places, in the real world it takes time and as has been pointed out to you before the mistake you guys (Griffin et al) keep making when calculating how long something should take is that you think they were flying everywhere at Mach 2+. They needed to conserve fuel because they had no idea how long they'd be in the air, and this is evident in that NEADS where working on getting a tanker close to the Otis fighters not long after they were airborne.

Less than two minutes after they had been told by Boston center that a second plane had hit the WTC and the realization began to sink in about what was happening and the magnitude of the attack they were ordered to establish combat air patrol over New York.

Remember hindsight is a wonderful thing and there was a lot of confusion in these initial stages about what was happening.

[Spins]

My source is gumboot, who apparently got it from Michael Bronner's Vanity Fair piece:

I personally don't believe FAA controllers would have refused fighters anything in this situation. I'd like to hear the recordings of them supposedly doing so to the Otis fighters. Anyone know if this is on the NORAD tapes?I would too that's why I posted the quote from the 9/11 Commission report, they mention the audio files used. Hopefully Gumboot (or someone else) can locate these.

[Spins]

My source is gumboot, who apparently got it from Michael Bronner's Vanity Fair piece:
He may very well be correct, to be honest I'd always defer to Gumboot on this subject because he has done much more research on it than I have. I suppose I've already laid out to the best of my ability what I feel happened based on the information I have. If he has more insight then I'm sure he'll post it.

[Reheat]

A-Train, While you're sorting out your confusion about the NY situation answer this question.

If Huckabone knew about AA77 WHY DID HE ASK GIANT KILLER TO SEND THE LANGLEY FIGHTERS TO BALTIMORE?

[Spins]

Also as has been mentioned before, and for anyone reading this thread that is new to the subject, in these early minutes (the period before and immediately after the Twin Towers were hit) there was no shoot down authorization in effect.

Then there is the obvious problem of trying to shoot down a large civilian airplane over a heavily populated area such as New York.

[Corsair 115]

It's a big sky out there... Which is why there have never been any mid-air collisions in aviation history. Oh, wait, there have...

...and fighter pilots are skilled enough to easily evade any number of slow moving airliners.Jetliners cruise at between 500-600 MPH. The typical combat speed of a jet fighter is between 500-600 MPH.

[Reheat]

Also as has been mentioned before, and for anyone reading this thread that is new to the subject, in these early minutes (the period before and immediately after the Twin Towers were hit) there was no shoot down authorization in effect.

Then there is the obvious problem of trying to shoot down a large civilian airplane over a heavily populated area such as New York.

Spins, the very reason there was no shoot down authorization is that it was not evident to anyone that the US was under a hostile attack, AT LEAST, until after UA175 hit the WTC. There was confusion at FAA on exactly who or what had hit WTC 1. There were report of a small civilian aircraft and then a 737. There were calls to Newark Control Tower to try and establish who/what had hit the WTC.

Once NEADS knew WTC 2 was hit (which was sometime after 9:03) they were attempting to coordinate Tanker support for the Otis Fighters in establishing a Fighter CAP over NYC to prevent further attacks.

Now, on to the Langley Fighters.....

[Reheat]

The typical combat speed of a jet fighter is between 500-600 MPH.

Exactly. Very good point.

Again, as Spins said, IGNORANT troofers think they cruise around at Mach 2 + looking for their prey. They don't do that at all. They can go from their optimum Combat Speed to VERY fast VERY quickly or they can conduct OPTIMUM maneuvering whichever is required for the task at hand.

[Spins]

Spins, the very reason there was no shoot down authorization is that it was not evident to anyone that the US was under a hostile attack, AT LEAST, until after UA175 hit the WTC. There was confusion at FAA on exactly who or what had hit WTC 1. There were report of a small civilian aircraft and then a 737. There were calls to Newark Control Tower to try and establish who/what had hit the WTC.

Once NEADS knew WTC 2 was hit (which was sometime after 9:03) they were attempting to coordinate Tanker support for the Otis Fighters in establishing a Fighter CAP over NYC to prevent further attacks.

Now, on to the Langley Fighters.....
Yes I know, I raised this issue along with the problem of trying to shoot down a large civilian airplane over a heavily populated area because they are two very important points to think about before you can even begin to contemplate a NORAD "stand down", which I might add as far as I can see never happened but that's only my opinion.

I pretty much laid out what happened with regards to Flight 11 and 175 in this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2914645#post2914645) post and this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2917961#post2917961) post over on the other recent NORAD thread here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=90102), which I might add was a very informative thread for me with regards to the posts made by yourself and others like Cheap Shot and Darth Rotor etc.

But specifically with regards to what you posted, yes you are correct and I must say your continued contribution here at the JREF is much appreciated. ;)

[Firestone]

Is there any chance that these tapes will clarify the matter of the plane believed to be at 40 miles, 30 miles, ... from Washington (the one Mineta believed to be flight 77, and the CR believed to be the projected path of flight 93)?

[Spins]

One can only hope, I'm sure Gumboot is on the case.

[A-Train]

As I pointed out above the Otis fighters had no target, in fact they were only in this "hold as needed" posture off the Long Island coast for 4 minutes .... and as you know they were only airborne at 8:52.

That they "had no target" is disputed. Our buddy Cheap Shot called NEADS at about 8:30 and reported AAL11 20 South of Albany. At 8:40, he reported it 35 North of JFK and heading for JFK. These are not exactly "targets," but they are position reports giving the fighters a good idea of where to head. And of course, the FAA had the real primary target of this plane until the very end.

We are talking minutes here, the fighters didn't just beam to these places, in the real world it takes time and as has been pointed out to you before the mistake you guys (Griffin et al) keep making when calculating how long something should take is that you think they were flying everywhere at Mach 2+.

Except that the time frame we are questioning is from about 8:20, when Boston controllers knew for certain AAL11 was hijacked, until 8:45 when they finally scrambled. So the speed of the aircraft is irrelevant to this discussion.

[Reheat]

Yes I know, I raised this issue along with the problem of trying to shoot down a large civilian airplane over a heavily populated area because they are two very important points to think about before you can even begin to contemplate a NORAD "stand down", which I might add as far as I can see never happened but that's only my opinion.

It had never been seriously discussed prior to 9/11 whether to sacrifice those in the air versus those on the ground. That has now been resolved as well as it can be. There was no "stand down" and that is no only my opinion, but it is support by FACTS.


I pretty much laid out what happened with regards to Flight 11 and 175 in this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2914645#post2914645) post and this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2917961#post2917961) post over on the other recent NORAD thread here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=90102), which I might add was a very informative thread for me with regards to the posts made by yourself and others like Cheap Shot and Darth Rotor etc.

Thanks. It is obvious that our ignorant troofer either doesn't read or completely ignores other threads.

But specifically with regards to what you posted, yes you are correct and I must say your continued contribution here at the JREF is much appreciated. ;)

Yes, we are all interested in the same objective. Thanks to you for continuing to post common sense supported by factual information. It is in the best interest of everyone that we posts factual information and correct one another if we don't. I have no problem with that and I'm sure the others don't either.

[A-Train]

A-Train, While you're sorting out your confusion about the NY situation answer this question.

If Huckabone knew about AA77 WHY DID HE ASK GIANT KILLER TO SEND THE LANGLEY FIGHTERS TO BALTIMORE?

I have no clue how you came up with that. I never said Huckabone knew anything about AAL77. This is what I wrote.

The Navy controller clearly is talking to the fighters, but he believes it is NEADS who have sent them out east. NEADS is not talking to the fighters, that's why Huckabone gives them the freq to contact them.

My understanding is that fighters are always talking on two channels: one to talk to the controller-- civilian or military-- who controls the airspace they're in; and the other to talk to their military commanders. Why weren't the Langley pilots talking to NEADS from the get go?

This is not a hostile question. I just want to know if there is a capability for NEADS to talk to the fighters while they are on the ground. You really aren't qualified to even be participating in this debate, Reheat. I'd like to ask you to leave.

[Reheat]

Is there any chance that these tapes will clarify the matter of the plane believed to be at 40 miles, 30 miles, ... from Washington (the one Mineta believed to be flight 77, and the CR believed to be the projected path of flight 93)?

Mineta ASSUMED the reference point was Washington and he ASSUMED it was AA77. It's doubtful if the NORAD tapes will enable a determination one way or another.

[Par]

You really aren't qualified to even be participating in this debate, Reheat. I'd like to ask you to leave.


Does this mean you’re going to toss Griffin’s book in the garbage?

[Reheat]

You really aren't qualified to even be participating in this debate, Reheat. I'd like to ask you to leave.

Reported

[Reheat]

That they "had no target" is disputed. Our buddy Cheap Shot called NEADS at about 8:30 and reported AAL11 20 South of Albany.



Source



Except that the time frame we are questioning is from about 8:20, when Boston controllers knew for certain AAL11 was hijacked, until 8:45 when they finally scrambled. So the speed of the aircraft is irrelevant to this discussion.

The question is not when the FAA knew, it is when NEADS knew there was definitely a hijacking. Speed is relevant and you keep being confused.

[Spins]

Except that the time frame we are questioning is from about 8:20, when Boston controllers knew for certain AAL11 was hijacked, until 8:45 when they finally scrambled. So the speed of the aircraft is irrelevant to this discussion.A-Train, we are going around in circles, this was fully explained in the recent NORAD thread here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=90102) by Cheap Shot and Darth Rotor etc.

Ultimately NORAD were only informed about Flight 11 by Boston center (who I might add broke protocol doing this) at 8:37:52 with the now infamous exchange...

Boston ATC: Hi. Boston Center TMU [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.
NEADS: Is this real-world or exercise?
Boston ATC: No, this is not an exercise, not a test....so in effect you are almost implying that there was a "stand down" (to use Griffin's language) at the FAA and not NORAD.

Yes, you are correct the fighters were scrambled at 8:45 but this has also been fully covered and I still see no evidence of a "stand down", but as I say it's only my opinion based on the information I've seen.

As has been said repeatedly though, it's all moot because Flight 11 was not considered a hostile target at this time, in fact when Mohammed Atta was heard by air traffic controllers between 8:24 and 8:34 he said they were going back to the airport, see this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2917961#post2917961) post of mine for what I'm referring to.

[Reheat]

I have no clue how you came up with that. I never said Huckabone knew anything about AAL77. This is what I wrote.

I know what you wrote. You keep trying to imply that the Langley fighters did not intercept and shoot down AA77 because they flew a standard departure rather than going to the Pentagon/Washington, DC area. THAT IS THE POINT!

You really aren't qualified to even be participating in this debate, Reheat. I'd like to ask you to leave.

Don't you wish! Are my questions too hard to address?

If Huckabone knew about AA77 WHY DID HE ASK GIANT KILLER TO SEND THE LANGLEY FIGHTERS TO BALTIMORE?

[Spins]

You really aren't qualified to even be participating in this debate, Reheat. I'd like to ask you to leave.This is unfair, I'd just like to state, for any lurkers out there, that Reheat was a USAF pilot for 21 years, including flight experience in F111's and F16's. :cool:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2892231#post2892231

[uk_dave]

The other radio was tuned to NWO Headquarters. Only after they received their instruction from their NWO superiors would they then contact NEADS in order to proceed with the cover-up.

Please! Some of this stuff is still classified "Owl Crotch Feather Plus".

You should know better.

[beachnut]

I have no clue how you came up with that. I never said Huckabone knew anything about AAL77. This is what I wrote.

You really aren't qualified to even be participating in this debate, Reheat. I'd like to ask you to leave.
And why would you be qualified? Who are you and what do you do that makes you qualified to talk about NORAD and flying?

[Reheat]

Hay A-Train,

Your DRG's theory about the NORAD response to the NYC situation have been thoroughly "SLAM DUNKED" repeatedly in two different threads. It is a dead issue. If you have any pride at all remaining you'll go over to LCF and post where even they disagree with you DRG. I think you've got more sympathy at p4t. Perhaps they can sooth your wounds!:D

You DRG has stated that the Langley Fighters were actually launched as a response to AA77 and the "Slow Down" resulted when the Langley Fighters proceeded East bound on a standard departure as opposed to toward Washington, DC. Why then:

If Huckabone knew about AA77 WHY DID HE ASK GIANT KILLER TO SEND THE LANGLEY FIGHTERS TO BALTIMORE?

[Reheat]

You should know better.

I promise not to lose my head again. I simply forgot it was classified TS (Top Secret) (Too Slimy)!:D

[Calcas]

You really aren't qualified to even be participating in this debate, Reheat. I'd like to ask you to leave.

That is one of the most arrogant statements I have ever seen.

IIRC, Reheat was a Lt Col and 21 year Air Force vet with hundreds (thousands?) of hours in fighter bombers and jet trainers.

Stanleywinthrop, who is also fairly new here, is also an experienced fighter pilot.

You have the nerve to state they're "not qualified." That almost makes me want to puke.

BTW, I'm going to "bump" the thread on "what is your 911 expertise" so that some of these newcomers can add their areas of experience to the list.

And, I would love for A-Train to post his. (I know, "I memorized of all of DRG's books" may not sound that great but at least he's got THAT going for him...)

[Spins]

Except that the time frame we are questioning is from about 8:20, when Boston controllers knew for certain AAL11 was hijacked, until 8:45 when they finally scrambled. So the speed of the aircraft is irrelevant to this discussion.I honestly don't know why A-Train is doing this but he's being incredibly dishonest when he say's from 8:20 because he's almost implying that Boston center should have notified NEADS either at 8:20 or soon after, which ultimately they did once they'd ascertained what was happening.

At 8:13:47, Boston Center instructed the pilots of Flight 11 to ascend to a cruising altitude of 35,000 feet, they never responded to this request. Remember at this point it was just another ordinary day, in fact this was the first indication that something hand happened on board that flight. Boston center then tried repeatedly to contact the aircraft (I've highlighted the voice of Mohammed Atta in bold)…


8:13:47 - American eleven climb maintain flight level three five zero.
8:13:57 - American eleven climb maintain flight level three five zero.
8:14:08 - American eleven Boston.
8:14:23 - American eleven Boston.
8:14:33 - American one one uh the American on the frequency how do you hear me?
8:15:15 - American eleven Boston.
8:15:22 - American eleven if you hear Boston center ident.
8:15:49 - American eleven if you hear Boston center ident please or acknowledge.
8:16:32 - American eleven if you hear Boston center ah re-contact Boston Center on one two seven point eight two, that's American eleven on two seven eight two.
8:17:05 - American eleven, American one one Boston.
8:17:56 - American eleven if you hear Boston center ident please.
8:18:56 - American eleven Boston.
8:20:08 - American eleven American one one how do you hear the center?
8:22:27 - American eleven Boston.
8:24:33 - is that American eleven trying to call?.
8:24:36 - **.
8:24:38 - we have some planes. just stay quiet and you'll be okay we are returning to the airport.
8:24:46 - and uh who's trying to call me here?
8:24:53 - American eleven are you trying to call?
8:24:56 - nobody move. everything will be okay. if you try to make and moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. just stay quiet.
8:33:59 - nobody move please we are going back to the airport don't try to make any stupid moves.

After Mohammed Atta accidentally broadcast the message he thought was being aimed at the passengers between 8:24 and 8:25 the Boston center controller realized this was indeed a hijacking. At this point he alerted his supervisor, who assigned another controller to assist him, and he redoubled his efforts to ascertain the flight's altitude. The transponder had been turned off so they were having difficulty doing so. What's more important though is at this point the controller didn't understand the initial transmission so the manager of Boston Center instructed his quality assurance specialist to "pull the tape" of the radio transmission, listen to it closely, and report back.

Once they had done this, sometime between 8:25 and 8:32, and in accordance with the FAA protocol, Boston Center managers started notifying their chain of command that Flight 11 had been hijacked.

At 8:37:52, Boston Center broke standard protocol and contacted NEADS directly. All this took place between 8:20 and 8:38, quite remarkable considering it had been just another regular day prior to that.

Oh and as far as I'm concerned the speed of the fighters is very relevant in understanding what happened on that day especially considering the fighters where only scrambled at 8:46 and airborne at 8:52.

[Reheat]

Post by RedDawn at LCF
A-Train, your answers are at JREF and you know it. You have been debating (and losing quite spectacularly) this issue with former and current fighter pilots and former and current ATC. Obviously, they don't post here.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=14767&st=300

[Spins]

I hardly ever venture over to the LCF, but it's nice to see someone is stating the obvious for A-Train. ;)

[Spins]

It had never been seriously discussed prior to 9/11 whether to sacrifice those in the air versus those on the ground. That has now been resolved as well as it can be. There was no "stand down" and that is no only my opinion, but it is support by FACTS.I was trying to be polite by saying "it's only my opinion", I could have been easily more abrupt but I chose not too. :D

[sleahead]

I honestly don't know why A-Train is doing this but he's being incredibly dishonest when he say's from 8:20 because he's almost implying that Boston center should have notified NEADS either at 8:20 or soon after, which ultimately they did once they'd ascertained what was happening.

I think I know why. It has been demonstrated that timeline he originally presented does not fit his stand down fantasy. Now he attempts to push back the start of the timleine to make his fantasy fit.

[A-Train]

I honestly don't know why A-Train is doing this but he's being incredibly dishonest when he say's from 8:20 because he's almost implying that Boston center should have notified NEADS either at 8:20 or soon after, which ultimately they did once they'd ascertained what was happening.

You are correct about when the voice from the cockpit was heard. It was 8:24, not 8:20. I stand corrected.

However, the transponder was turned off and the plane veered wildly off course at 8:21. That is a very radical series of events that should have resulted in a call to NEADS as soon as possible. Though it was not known for certain to be a hijack at that time, the fact that a hijacking was a distinct possibility is enough to warrant an immediate call to NEADS.

Colin Scoggins (Cheap Shot) agrees with me on this:

"A NORDO aircraft prior to 9/11 wasn't a big deal; eventually you would get them back. The thing on 9/11 was an aircraft missed a clearance, was NORDO and lost a transponder, then made a 90-plus-degree turn. It just wasn't right. . . . I would have [called] almost immediately." -Colin ScogginsP.S. Stop saying Mohammad Atta said this or said that. There is no evidence that it was Atta's voice-- or the voice of any of the other alleged hijackers-- being broadcast from the cockpit.

[Reheat]

Are you lonely A-Train? Does no one care about you? If you go over to Robbie you might get some attention and he might even agree with you and make you feel good again! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Now, when did you say NEADS knew there was a problem with AA11?

Where is the evidence of a NORAD stand down? Produce it or SHUT UP and go back to your playpen and play with your rattler. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1840746c1f10359a41.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7720)

[Spins]

P.S. Stop saying Mohammad Atta said this or said that. There is no evidence that it was Atta's voice-- or the voice of any of the other alleged hijackers-- being broadcast from the cockpit.The voice heard from Flight 11 was allegedly Mohammed Atta and based on who had received flight training prior to the events of 9/11 it can be assumed he was the one flying the plane. What we can be certain of is that it was the voice of one of the 5 hijackers onboard; it was definitely not the captain of Flight 11.

I'm comfortable with the fact that it was Atta based on what we know, he was flying the plane and spoke relatively good english etc (many of the hijackers couldn't speak english very well), and that he was a senior member of the plot.

Dare I ask, at the very least do you think it was one of the hijackers?

[A-Train]

Dare I ask, at the very least do you think it was one of the hijackers?

It was definitely one of the hijackers. That it was Atta or any other Arab is pure conjecture. That hijackers smart enough to subdue eight pilots-- using only knives, without any of those pilots being able to alert ATC in any way-- and then turn off the transponders...... were then dumb enough to broadcast a message over the frequency that was meant for the cabin.... then doing this on at least two of the flights......

I don't believe it. I believe the messages were broadcast by the real hijackers, who were not Arabs, but broadcast them intentionally over the freq while trying to sound like Arabs-- for the purpose of framing Arabs for the hijackings.

But this is off topic...

PS to Reheat: Who the H*** is "Robbie"?

[Calcas]

PS to Reheat: Who the H*** is "Robbie"?

I would believe that to be Rob Balsamo.

Creator and resident dictator at pft.

Are you not a member there?

And, btw. We're still waiting for you to post your credentials here other than parroting DRG.

[Corsair 115]

That hijackers smart enough to subdue eight pilots-- using only knives, without any of those pilots being able to alert ATC in any way-- ...The way you phrase it makes it sound like you think it was highly improbable such an event could have taken place.

I would refer you to the case of FedEx Flight 705 (http://www.tailstrike.com/070494.htm). In that event, an off-duty flight engineer was hitching a ride aboard the flight, a process known as jumpseating. Thirty minutes into the flight, he used a hammer to attack the three crewmen in the cockpit. Though seriously injured, two of the crewmen managed to force the attacker out of the cockpit and wrestled with him outside while the pilot struggled to control the aircraft. While the struggle raged, the pilot put the DC-10 through some incredible maneuvers which were far beyond the design tolerances of the aircraft.

It wasn't until several minutes later that the pilot was finally able to contact ATC to inform them of the emergency. Even then, he wasn't able to recount the full details, he only had time to request an immediate emergency landing and that there had been some sort of incident involving a crewmember.

[Cheap Shot]

I understand the distinction quite well. What you don't understand is that fighters pursuing a suspect craft will always have total priority over any number of civilian aircraft. No controller will ever refuse airspace to a fighter in that situation. The usual requirement for 5 miles and a thousand feet will be thrown out the window, and controller will settle for "green between," meaning separation of about a mile or so. A controller would not be punished for a separation error in such an emergency situation; but if he refused clearance to scrambling fighter, he'd be in very deep doo-doo.

This is especially true on a VFR day like Sept. 11, 2001.

I think Reheat even agrees with me on this one:

What??? No controller is going to go less than 5 miles and a 1,000 ft for anything. If the fighters want it bad enough or NEADS they declare AFIO (Authorization For Fighter Interceptor Operations) then we don't care if they go with in 50 ft. On 9-11 NEADS had the authority to declare AFIO, not the fighters, but AFIO ended up being declared later on during the day, as far as I know it was never declared for the four aircraft.

[boloboffin]

It was definitely one of the hijackers. That it was Atta or any other Arab is pure conjecture. That hijackers smart enough to subdue eight pilots-- using only knives, without any of those pilots being able to alert ATC in any way-- and then turn off the transponders...... were then dumb enough to broadcast a message over the frequency that was meant for the cabin.... then doing this on at least two of the flights......

Perhaps they were more familiar with slitting throats than the cockpit details?

Two flights doing this sounds like a common mistake in their training.

[Corsair 115]

Two flights doing this sounds like a common mistake in their training.Indeed. It would be reasonable to conclude that good knowledge of the radio and comms system aboard the aircraft was not high on the hijackers' list of priorities. Really, why would they need it?

[Reheat]

It would be reasonable to conclude that good knowledge of the radio and comms system aboard the aircraft was not high on the hijackers' list of priorities. Really, why would they need it?

Correct. But, this is irrelevant minutia anyway. Virtually everyone has screwed up the settings on an Intercom Panel at one time or another as it's very easy to do.

Anyone who has flown much and listened to ATC radio traffic has heard someone forgetting to set the switchology correctly. It's no big deal at all and proves nothing.

[Shrinker]

That hijackers smart enough to subdue eight pilots-- using only knives, without any of those pilots being able to alert ATC in any way-- and then turn off the transponders...... were then dumb enough to broadcast a message over the frequency that was meant for the cabin.... then doing this on at least two of the flights......


The UA93 crew managed to get out a mayday call. Does that help you at all?

Also, are you saying that if you stood behind a seated person, and you were carrying a knife, you wouldn't be able to subdue them? I think I could...:boggled:

[A-Train]

Anyone who has flown much and listened to ATC radio traffic has heard someone forgetting to set the switchology correctly. It's no big deal at all and proves nothing.

True, it does happen-- but very infrequently. On 9/11 it happened twice on AAL11 and at least once on UAL93. Were the hijackers really wanting to broadcast to the passengers in the cabin? Or did they want to further the false image of an Arab hijacking by broadcasting over the frequency using clumsy, pigeon English?

[A-Train]

Also, are you saying that if you stood behind a seated person, and you were carrying a knife, you wouldn't be able to subdue them? I think I could.

And just how do a handful of camel jockeys suddenly find themselves standing behind the seated pilots of an airliner, without those pilots being aware of their presence? At the very least the pilots would have been facing the intruders and would have been able to fend off the knives with their hands and arms-- a very messy melee would have ensued.

And what about UAL93? The pilots there had already been warned of hijackings and had been told to bar the cockpit door. So Ziad and the boys kicked down the door and slit the pilots' throats, and all we heard was one "Mayday"?

Here's what really happened: the hijackers-- the ones who took out the pilots-- looked and dressed like you and me. They may have had pilot credentials. They gained the trust of the pilots, then quickly took them out with shots to the head from a silencer-equipped gun. On UAL93, the hijacker was probably already in the jump seat when the warning was broadcast to bar the door.

But, we should really get back to the NORAD tapes.....

[twinstead]

True, it does happen-- but very infrequently. On 9/11 it happened twice on AAL11 and at least once on UAL93. Were the hijackers really wanting to broadcast to the passengers in the cabin? Or did they want to further the false image of an Arab hijacking by broadcasting over the frequency using clumsy, pigeon English?

Ohhh, I love loaded questions meant to forward an agenda. Can we play more?

[twinstead]

But, we should really get back to the NORAD tapes.....

Yes, cause it appears you're going into movie mode again...

[Shrinker]

And just how do a handful of camel jockeys...

Camel jockeys? Well well, ain't you the arab-hater. :rolleyes:

But, we should really get back to the NORAD tapes.....

Yes, I really think you should. This silencer business is embarrassing.

[AMTMAN]

And just how do a handful of camel jockeys suddenly find themselves standing behind the seated pilots of an airliner, without those pilots being aware of their presence? .

Another trade mark of the "truth" movement, racism. Are you trying to tell us a "handfull of camel jockeys" were incapable of taking the cockpit? It certainly sounds like that.

[Dumb All Over]

Here's what really happened: the hijackers-- the ones who took out the pilots-- looked and dressed like you and me.
I'm sure I look nothing like you. I don't dress like you either. Can you name the people in this forum that look and dress like you? If the hijackers looked and dressed like you, then we really can't rule out that you were one of the hijackers. You've already demonstrated your ability to hijack a thread.

[AMTMAN]

At the very least the pilots would have been facing the intruders and would have been able to fend off the knives with their hands and arms-- a very messy melee would have ensued.

And what about UAL93? The pilots there had already been warned of hijackings and had been told to bar the cockpit door. So Ziad and the boys kicked down the door and slit the pilots' throats, and all we heard was one "Mayday"?

Here's what really happened: the hijackers-- the ones who took out the pilots-- looked and dressed like you and me. They may have had pilot credentials. They gained the trust of the pilots, then quickly took them out with shots to the head from a silencer-equipped gun. On UAL93, the hijacker was probably already in the jump seat when the warning was broadcast to bar the door.

But, we should really get back to the NORAD tapes.....

Could you please tell me how the pilots would have been facing their attackers. The flight crew seats in the 757/767 do not swivel. Also, the pilots would have been belted in, kind restricts their ability to defend themselves. You are also overlooking the fact that they were airline pilots, not Navy SEALS. Airline pilots going up against trained killers, we all know the outcome.

Do you have any evidence to support your claim about "what really happened"? If you don't then it's not "what really happened". The only people allowed in that cockpit would have been the flight attendants, other AA/UAL pilots, or pilots from another airline with a jumpseat agreement with AA/UAL. Having a pilots license is not going to get you a jumpseat on a commerical flight. Not before 9-11 and definelty not after 9-11.

[Horatius]

... and all we heard was one "Mayday"?

Here's what really happened: the hijackers-- the ones who took out the pilots-- looked and dressed like you and me. They may have had pilot credentials. They gained the trust of the pilots, then quickly took them out with shots to the head from a silencer-equipped gun. On UAL93, the hijacker was probably already in the jump seat when the warning was broadcast to bar the door.





I would love to hear your hypothesis for how the pilot on 93 got out a Mayday call after being shot in the head. Really, I would.....

[Reality Believer]

As a sideline player on this forum, I was really hoping that this thread would have been used to discover some really interesting information about the tapes, and it has.

Sadly, it has been derailed by a CT rabbit and the debunker hounds are following him right down the hole.

It takes two to tango people. I would really like to hear more about the transcription of the tapes.

[Crungy]

As a sideline player on this forum, I was really hoping that this thread would have been used to discover some really interesting information about the tapes, and it has.

Sadly, it has been derailed by a CT rabbit and the debunker hounds are following him right down the hole.

It takes two to tango people. I would really like to hear more about the transcription of the tapes.

Agreed. After much discussion about the tower collapses, this thread has been a refreshing change of discourse. The knowledge and expertise displayed here is a facinating education read and is much appreciated. Please continue the dialog along those lines and ignore the little kid, who has nothing to offer, but sticking his tounge out at you.

[Reheat]

The only people allowed in that cockpit would have been the flight attendants, other AA/UAL pilots, or pilots from another airline with a jumpseat agreement with AA/UAL. Having a pilots license is not going to get you a jumpseat on a commerical flight. Not before 9-11 and definelty not after 9-11.

Let's get some FACTS listed as it appears the thread is hijacked by now and this issue needs to be settled.

Flight Crews for both Airlines were/are PROHIBITED (BEFORE and AFTER 9/11) from allowing anyone (besides an on duty Flight Attendant) not qualified in FAA Part 121 Operations in the cockpit during flight.

The ONLY way anyone not employed with a qualifying Airline with a reciprocal agreement with either AA or UA could get into the cockpit in flight would be someone with an Airline Transport Pilot Rating KNOWN by either the Captain or FO. They would demand credentials, period.

In fact, credentials were/are checked twice. To even obtain a "jump seat" authorization one must go into the Airline Operations and schedule it with the Operations Desk. Pilots wanting to "hitch hike" don't just walk up to the Departure Gate and obtain it.

A common practice by both Airlines once the outside doors were/are closed was/is to invite the "jump seating Pilot" to go into First Class and "enjoy the flight". The ONLY time this might not happen was/is if the flight was/is full. We know all of the flight on 9/11 were not full. There was plenty of space.

I already covered how I suspect the jihadists obtained entry into the cockpit in another thread.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2928591#post2928591

[Spins]

And just how do a handful of camel jockeys suddenly find themselves standing behind the seated pilots of an airliner, without those pilots being aware of their presence? At the very least the pilots would have been facing the intruders and would have been able to fend off the knives with their hands and arms-- a very messy melee would have ensued.

And what about UAL93? The pilots there had already been warned of hijackings and had been told to bar the cockpit door. So Ziad and the boys kicked down the door and slit the pilots' throats, and all we heard was one "Mayday"?

Here's what really happened: the hijackers-- the ones who took out the pilots-- looked and dressed like you and me. They may have had pilot credentials. They gained the trust of the pilots, then quickly took them out with shots to the head from a silencer-equipped gun. On UAL93, the hijacker was probably already in the jump seat when the warning was broadcast to bar the door.

But, we should really get back to the NORAD tapes.....
A-Train why is it you insist on being economical with the truth about what happened on that awful day? It's very clear what happened based on the evidence we have but you keep trying to insinuate things happened in away that suggests inside job.

Yes, you are correct the pilots of UA Flight 93 were warned, the message they received at 9:24 was "Beware any cockpit intrusion—Two a/c [aircraft] hit World Trade Center", at 9:26 the pilot, Jason Dahl, responded with a note of puzzlement: "Ed, confirm latest mssg plz—Jason." It was sometime around 9:28 that the hijackers attacked, there were actually two separate "Mayday!" calls, one at 9:28:17 and one at 9:28:50. During this period the airplane actually dropped 700 feet (200 m) in altitude. Here are the two "Mayday!" calls…

UA Flight 93 Transmission at 9:28:17 (http://www.mugen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Mayday 1.MP3)
UA Flight 93 Transmission at 9:28:50 (http://www.mugen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Mayday 2.MP3)

So in conclusion several aspects of your post above are wrong, the pilots were attacked literally within a couple of minutes of asking for a confirmation of the warning message (did they even receive this confirmation?). There were actually two separate "Mayday!" calls and in fact the time difference between the two indicates that the struggle was prolonged (lasted about a minute at the very least) and from the transmissions received it was a violent attack and no doubt people were killed.

[SpitfireIX]

And just how do a handful of camel jockeys suddenly find themselves standing behind the seated pilots of an airliner, without those pilots being aware of their presence? At the very least the pilots would have been facing the intruders and would have been able to fend off the knives with their hands and arms-- a very messy melee would have ensued.


Not that you care, I realize, but for the record I want to register my strong exception to your use of the term "camel jockeys." That aside, as usual, you are merely using 20/20 hindsight in order to attempt to proclaim a conspiracy.

Prior to September 11, air crew were trained to cooperate with hijackers; the asssumption was that the hijackers would either have wanted to have been taken somewhere, such as Cuba, or that they would have had the plane land somewhere and issued a series of demands. In those circumstances, why would the pilots of American 11, United 175, or American 77 have been expecting to have been attacked with no provocation??

Here is a dramatization of the attempted takeover of FedEx Flight 705 in 1993. The attack begins at about the 5:00 minute mark. Notice how just one disturbed individual armed with a hammer came very close to incapacitating a three-man flight crew and taking over the aircraft.

VpjXOzT0Ou0

And what about UAL93? The pilots there had already been warned of hijackings and had been told to bar the cockpit door. So Ziad and the boys kicked down the door and slit the pilots' throats, and all we heard was one "Mayday"?


The pilots received the following warning from dispatcher Ed Ballinger at approximately 13:24: “Beware any cockpit intrusion—Two a/c [aircraft] hit World Trade Center.” At 13:26 pilot Jason Dahl responded with "Ed, confirm latest mssg plz--Jason." (September 11 Commission report, p. 11 (http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.pdf)) The following is from the Air Traffic Control tape transcript (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc08.pdf) prepared by the NTSB:

13:27:25 Cleveland Center: United ninety three that traffic is one o'clock twelve miles east bound three seven zero.

13:27:30 United 93: Negative contact we're looking United ninety three.

13:28:16 United 93: *** (mayday) *** (hey get out of here) ***.

13:28:48 United 93: *** (get out of here) *** (get out of here) ***.


So, first of all, the pilots were not told to "bar the door," which I'm not certain was even possible on September 11; they were merely told to "beware."

Second, one of the flight attendants could have been forced to unlock the cockpit door at knifepoint; there was at least one key available in the cabin.

Finally, as the transcript makes clear, the pilots had only just received the warning, and had requested confirmation. Further, they were likely preoccupied looking for a nearby aircraft that had just been reported to them by ATC when the hijackers entered the cockpit.

Here's what really happened: the hijackers-- the ones who took out the pilots-- looked and dressed like you and me. They may have had pilot credentials. They gained the trust of the pilots, then quickly took them out with shots to the head from a silencer-equipped gun. On UAL93, the hijacker was probably already in the jump seat when the warning was broadcast to bar the door.


:dl: :dl: :dl: :dl:


So of course that was one of the hijackers screaming "mayday" and "get out of here" repeatedly, right, A-Train? :rolleyes:

Also, dead-heading "pilots" in uniform would have been noticed by the gate agents and at least some of the flight attendants on each flight. Why weren't any of them reported, and what was the Mossad's plan in case they were?

Finally, why wasn't a silenced pistol found in the wreckage of United 93?

[Spins]

It was definitely one of the hijackers. That it was Atta or any other Arab is pure conjecture. That hijackers smart enough to subdue eight pilots-- using only knives, without any of those pilots being able to alert ATC in any way-- and then turn off the transponders...... were then dumb enough to broadcast a message over the frequency that was meant for the cabin.... then doing this on at least two of the flights......

I don't believe it. I believe the messages were broadcast by the real hijackers, who were not Arabs, but broadcast them intentionally over the freq while trying to sound like Arabs-- for the purpose of framing Arabs for the hijackings.

But this is off topic...

PS to Reheat: Who the H*** is "Robbie"?For any lurkers this (http://www.mugen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Atta%20Full.MP3) the audio of what I consider to be Mohammed Atta from Flight 11, you can verify it against the transmissions I'd posted before here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2927363#post2927363), note the confused response of the Boston controller (remember this was the first hijacking) this is the reason they got a quality assurance specialist to "pull the tape" of the radio transmission, listen to it closely, and report back.

[Corsair 115]

True, it does happen-- but very infrequently. On 9/11 it happened twice on AAL11 and at least once on UAL93. See post #204:

It would be reasonable to conclude that good knowledge of the radio and comms system aboard the aircraft was not high on the hijackers' list of priorities. Really, why would they need it?



And just how do a handful of camel jockeys suddenly find themselves standing behind the seated pilots of an airliner, without those pilots being aware of their presence? I again refer you to the case of FedEx Flight 705. The attacker was able to enter the cockpit withouth the pilot hearing it; indeed, his first realization that something was happening was from the sound of the blows landing on his comrades and their cries of pain.

I'll let the somewhat racist tone of the first part of your statement go without comment.

At the very least the pilots would have been facing the intruders and would have been able to fend off the knives with their hands and arms-- a very messy melee would have ensued. Have you ever been in a cockpit? It is not a roomy place. The pilots are sitting strapped into their seats, and the seats are well forward. There is an instrument panel between the seats which you have to maneuver around in order to get into and out of the seats.

A pilot strapped into his seat is actually quite vulnerable. He can't turn around easily, and he can't get out easily.

Also, I'll refer you again to the case of FedEx Flight 705.

[A-Train]

The actual scramble orders would be issued to the Duty Officer at the base, not to the pilots themselves.... I explained that NEADS were. In the NORAD tapes the pilots can be heard numerous times communicating directly with Major Fox. This is not to say that NEADS staff personally told them to take off - the pilots are scrambled by the light on the alert barn turning from red to green, which in turn is done by staff at the base.

Does anyone know who the Duty Officer was at Langley? Michael Bronner in his Vanity Fair article suggests someone at Langley forgot to tell the fighters which way to go:

The Langley fighters were headed the wrong way—due east, straight out to sea into a military-training airspace called Whiskey 386, rather than toward Washington, which neads believed was under attack. According to the 9/11 commission, the Langley pilots were never briefed by anyone at their base about why they were being scrambled, so, despite having been given the order from neads to fly to Washington, the pilots ended up following their normal training flight plan out to sea—a flight plan dating from the Cold War. Vanity FairDid NEADS tell Langley to head the fighters toward Washington, and the Langley Duty Officer simply forgot to head them there? Wouldn't that earn this Duty Officer a quick court martial and twenty years at Leavenworth?

Do the NORAD tapes include the communications from NEADS (Maj. James Fox?) to Langley? Do they include the communications from the Langley controllers to the fighters?

I bring this up because in the conversation between Huckabone and the Navy ATC, the Navy guy clearly seems to believe it was NEADS who have sent the planes East:

09:34:12
NAVY A.T.C.: You've got [the fighters] moving east in airspace. Now you want 'em to go to Baltimore?
HUCKABONE: Yes, sir. We're not gonna take 'em in Whiskey 386 [military training airspace over the ocean].
NAVY A.T.C.: O.K., once he goes to Baltimore, what are we supposed to do?
HUCKABONE: Have him contact us on auxiliary frequency 2-3-4 decimal 6. Instead of taking handoffs to us and us handing 'em back, just tell Center they've got to go to Baltimore.

[Reheat]

If Huckabone knew about AA77 WHY DID HE ASK GIANT KILLER TO SEND THE FIGHTERS TO BALTIMORE?

[Big Les]

I think you need the original recording to get the vocal emphasis. With the neutrality of transcription you could just as easily read the "You've got" as "One has" or "We have" or just plain "They are".

[Reheat]

The Langley fighters were headed the wrong way—due east, straight out to sea into a military-training airspace called Whiskey 386, rather than toward Washington, which neads believed was under attack. According to the 9/11 commission, the Langley pilots were never briefed by anyone at their base about why they were being scrambled, so, despite having been given the order from neads to fly to Washington, the pilots ended up following their normal training flight plan out to sea—a flight plan dating from the Cold War. Vanity Fair

You just keep getting it wrong! Again and again and again.

Here's what the 9/11 commission really said:
The Langley fighters were heading east, not north, for three reasons. First, unlike a normal scramble order, this order did not include a distance to the target or the target's location. Second, a "generic" flight plan-prepared to get the aircraft airborne and out of local airspace quickly-incorrectly led the Langley fighters to believe they were ordered to fly due east (090) for 60 miles. Third, the lead pilot and local FAA controller incorrectly assumed the flight plan instruction to go "090 for 60" superseded the original scramble order.153

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch1.htm

By the time NEADS noticed the Fighters east bound, my calculations indicate they had traveled about 30 miles when Huckabone asked Giant Killer to turn them toward Baltimore.

BTW, the local FAA controller referred to above would have been Norfolk Departure Control who would later hand off the Fighters to Giant Killer, the Navy controller referred to later.

....more useless garbage.....

I think you need the original recording to get the vocal emphasis. With the neutrality of transcription you could just as easily read the "You've got" as "One has" or "We have" or just plain "They are".

Typical tactic. He thinks no one will notice HIS BOLDING and HIS INTREPRETATION of what was said and how it was said.

Hay A-Train,

If Huckabone knew about AA77 WHY DID HE ASK GIANT KILLER TO SEND THE FIGHTERS TO BALTIMORE?

[Myriad]

Shanksville is ENE of Camp David.

Not particularly close to Camp David, but not that far either, at jet speeds.

So, how plausible is it that military personnel, dealing with an event that included an attack on Washington DC, would use Camp David as the nearest reference point to Shanksville, as opposed to say Pittsburgh that was a bit closer but in the opposite direction from where the plane was heading? Seems pretty plausible to me. There's not much else of strategic interest in between.


Someone has brought to my attention that my previous post quoted above is wrong. As best I can determine, Shanksville PA is WNW of Camp David, not ENE.

I did check it on a map before posting the above, but when I did so I must have transposed east and west in my mind, or made some other similarly careless and stupid mistake. I apologize to all correspondents and readers of this thread for the inadvertent misinformation.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[beachnut]

Someone has brought to my attention that my previous post quoted above is wrong. As best I can determine, Shanksville PA is WNW of Camp David, not ENE.

I did check it on a map before posting the above, but when I did so I must have transposed east and west in my mind, or made some other similarly careless and stupid mistake. I apologize to all correspondents and readers of this thread for the inadvertent misinformation.

Respectfully,
MyriadGetting the direction wrong, by anyone, has nothing to do with any 9/11 truth junk. And if there were miss statements on 9/11, the truthers tend to use the errors (which they can not even figure out, one way or another) and build more CT junk.

[JimBenArm]

Someone has brought to my attention that my previous post quoted above is wrong. As best I can determine, Shanksville PA is WNW of Camp David, not ENE.

I did check it on a map before posting the above, but when I did so I must have transposed east and west in my mind, or made some other similarly careless and stupid mistake. I apologize to all correspondents and readers of this thread for the inadvertent misinformation.

Respectfully,
Myriad
I'm sorry, but your blatant attempt at disinformation can't be explained away by such hand-waving! You are an obvious shill, and will stand for your crimes! Unless you're sitting...

[Reheat]

It's been awfully quiet about the tapes since they were downloaded several days ago. This is the only noteworthy item that I've seen about them. I wonder why?

There must be evidence of a NORAD Stand up or Speed Up, maybe! :D :D

This series of tapes prove the existence of the "Phantom AA11"!

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_For_Truth/index.php?showtopic=8845

[Digest]

well - as I have had time - I have listened to them (all thoug its all very interesting its nothing we havent already known- aside from the individual attempts of these men to protect their country.

my plans of transcribing them is a little side tracked being that I am getting redeployed - but i am going to take them over on a thumbdrive - trust me some-night get pretty boring and having something to do will be a godsend. If i can figure out how to load them ontop my mp3 plaer it would be even better!

My guess is since there is no blatent oreder to fire missiles at the pentagon - these will be accused of being fake/edited or the like -" if it dont match my story it cant be the truth!!!" true believes dont doubt...


:dig:

[Reheat]

aside from the individual attempts of these men to protect their country.

You're being a sexist, you know! :D :D :D

There was more than one female at NEADS and one of the F-16 pilots from Andrews was female.

ETA: Thanks for doing the transcripts as you have time. That will be much appreciated.

[defaultdotxbe]

If i can figure out how to load them ontop my mp3 plaer it would be even better!

:dig:
im converting them to mp3, as well as trying to make them a bit smaller, i should have them done tomorrow morning and can send you a download link if you like

[A-Train]

There was more than one female at NEADS....

I noticed Major James Fox appears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_93_%28film%29) in the film United 93, portraying himself. Shawna Fox also appears in the film as herself- "Staff Sgt. Shawna Fox."

Perhaps they are married?

[PhantomWolf]

I noticed Major James Fox appears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_93_%28film%29) in the film United 93, portraying himself. Shawna Fox also appears in the film as herself- "Staff Sgt. Shawna Fox."

Perhaps they are married?

extremely unlikely considering the US military regulations against fraternisation and chain of command relationships.

[ref]

well - as I have had time - I have listened to them (all thoug its all very interesting its nothing we havent already known- aside from the individual attempts of these men to protect their country.

my plans of transcribing them is a little side tracked being that I am getting redeployed - but i am going to take them over on a thumbdrive - trust me some-night get pretty boring and having something to do will be a godsend. If i can figure out how to load them ontop my mp3 plaer it would be even better!

My guess is since there is no blatent oreder to fire missiles at the pentagon - these will be accused of being fake/edited or the like -" if it dont match my story it cant be the truth!!!" true believes dont doubt...


:dig:

Thanks for your efforts, Digest. And good luck with your redeployment.

I would think some will claim, that they released only the parts that showed no signs of a conspiracy. Why would they release the parts, that had some criminal information in them.

[gumboot]

It's been awfully quiet about the tapes since they were downloaded several days ago. This is the only noteworthy item that I've seen about them. I wonder why?

There must be evidence of a NORAD Stand up or Speed Up, maybe! :D :D

This series of tapes prove the existence of the "Phantom AA11"!

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_For_Truth/index.php?showtopic=8845


Even listening to the tapes non stop there's a good five days worth of listening there. Add in toilet breaks, meal breaks, and some time to sleep...

Frankly they're so full of jargon (and the quality is so bad) I doubt anyone outside of NORAD could actually get anything much useful out of them. Not to mention the tracks are capturing only bits of the action. You'd really need to synch them all up and play all of them simultaneously to get a grasp of the situation.

I wonder how ProTools or Adobe Audition would manage running 18 6hr+ audio tracks at once. Synching them would be a nightmare in itself and quite possibly impossible.

-Gumboot

[Sabrina]

extremely unlikely considering the US military regulations against fraternisation and chain of command relationships.

Not necessarily. Many officers are prior enlisted (I know about twenty or thirty, although I'm not prior enlisted myself); it's entirely possible that they could have gotten married prior to him becoming an officer, which would, of necessity, negate that regulation.

This is assuming they ARE married of course. And it's also extremely likely that they wouldn't be in the same unit regardless, so the chain of command relationship is largely negated in that instance. Once again, assuming they ARE married.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

So without going back through 6 pages... Anything come out of these 120/140 hours of tapes yet?

No voice of Dick Cheney whispering "Stand Down Upon Order of the Freemasons, Zionists and ME!"

[Reality Believer]

So without going back through 6 pages... Anything come out of these 120/140 hours of tapes yet?

No voice of Dick Cheney whispering "Stand Down Upon Order of the Freemasons, Zionists and ME!"

No stand down orders. There was talk of using an AIM-9's "in the face" if they had to shoot.

The largest concern is that CT's are going to misinterpret the jargon and hear something that isn't there, or misquote by replacing a few key words (already happened).

[Hellbound]

At 102:37:89 you hear Dick say "I have to whiz, keep me informed."

Well, we all know that have is a word indicating posession. And whiz is, of course, a short form of wizard. A keep is another name for a castle, and an informant is a type of spy.

Thus, when translated, we have:
"I hold the wizard, spy castle."

Goin further, it's obvious that wizards today are referred to as illusionists. Holding is another way of saying waiting. And the spy castle could easily refer to the CIA.

Thus, what Dick actually said was:
"I'm waiting with the illusions, what's the word form the CIA?"

See? Proof of conspiracy.

[~enigma~]

camel jockeys Racist bs...you survived ignore fro so long and now you reveal yourself. Thanks...

[PhantomWolf]

Not necessarily. Many officers are prior enlisted (I know about twenty or thirty, although I'm not prior enlisted myself); it's entirely possible that they could have gotten married prior to him becoming an officer, which would, of necessity, negate that regulation.

This is assuming they ARE married of course. And it's also extremely likely that they wouldn't be in the same unit regardless, so the chain of command relationship is largely negated in that instance. Once again, assuming they ARE married.

They way I understood it was that if both are enlisted and in the same unit, that if they married, one of them would be transfered out of the unit. Also that you wouldn't transfer in a person married to someone else in the chain of command.

[Drudgewire]

camel jockeys

what really happened

Yup, that's why I call whatreallyhappened.com "thejewsdidit.com." It's the new klan.

[Reality Believer]

So no "stand down" orders yet? I haven't been researching this myself, even though I have a full copy. Any word from the CT sites? Digest?

"It seems kind of quite Tex. Yea, a little too quiet."

[Calcas]

I haven't heard squat about this in months.

Surely one of the twoofers must have found that smoking gun by now???

[MikeW]

I haven't heard squat about this in months.

Surely one of the twoofers must have found that smoking gun by now???
I dunno, but if anyone missed these first time (or is just torrent-phobic) then I've made the tapes available on this page (http://911myths.com/index.php/NORAD).

[T.A.M.]

Thanks Mike...downloading several of them now (let me know if this will hit you bandwidth wise, and I will stop).

TAM:)

[MikeW]

Thanks Mike...downloading several of them now (let me know if this will hit you bandwidth wise, and I will stop).
That's okay, I got tired of rubbish cheap budget hosting, moved somewhere decent, & so now have plenty of bandwidth. As long as you're not trying to download them all at once with a download manager, anyway (10 files by 10 connections each or something probably would stress the server).

But aside from that, there's no problem at all. Get them all if you're interested, we need more people to check them out.

[T.A.M.]

well thanks Mike. I will download them all, and over the next ten years wade through them.

TAM;)