What do you think caused explosions in the collapses?

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I have found a source for powerful explosions in the collapses mainly air blasts that would not be evident on seismic data what do you think would caused them?

I will tell you what I found in experiments after I hear some Ideas, it is so easy no one thought of it before.
Not even me.

[Myriad]

Smoke explosions, from hot smoke rich in pyrolized combustible gases being forced out of previously enclosed (oxygen-depleted) spaces. These would be essentially backdrafts in reverse (frontdrafts?), set off by smoke being forced out instead of fresh air being allowed in.

Would be interesting to test, set up a standard enclosed room fire test with a reinforced ceiling. Half-scale would probably do. Instrument the surrounding space instead of just the room. Let it burn past flashover and into incipient backdraft condition, then force a crush-collapse (by dropping a few tons of sand onto the ceiling, perhaps).

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Smoke explosions, from hot smoke rich in pyrolized combustible gases being forced out of previously enclosed (oxygen-depleted) spaces. These would be essentially backdrafts in reverse (frontdrafts?), set off by smoke being forced out instead of fresh air being allowed in.

Would be interesting to test, set up a standard enclosed room fire test with a reinforced ceiling. Half-scale would probably do. Instrument the surrounding space instead of just the room. Let it burn past flashover and into incipient backdraft condition, then force a crush-collapse (by dropping a few tons of sand onto the ceiling, perhaps).

Respectfully,
Myriad

Good Idea already tested that though, and it would add just a little energy to the collapses but there is something bigger. Something I recently discovered about air, it has to do with the thermodynamic principles behind a heat pump or an air conditioner and reactants in the buildings.

That is the only clue I will give for now though until I receive more replies.

[Myriad]

Well, now you're just giving it away :). Or at least part of it. I know the physical phenomenon you seem to be getting at (the word "adiabatic" comes to mind) but not the reactant(s) you have in mind that would be capable of adding a lot of energy to the process in a very short time.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[twinstead]

Of course I can offer no technical contribution to this thread at all, but all I can say is I hope that this required some more cool experiments in your backyard, CC

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Of course I can offer no technical contribution to this thread at all, but all I can say is I hope that this required some more cool experiments in your backyard, CC

I am still picking small microfragments of steel out of my leg if that gives you another clue.

[Myriad]

I am still picking small microfragments of steel out of my leg if that gives you another clue.


An angry father with a shotgun knocked the towers down? :eye-poppi

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Dave Rogers]

Good Idea already tested that though, and it would add just a little energy to the collapses but there is something bigger. Something I recently discovered about air, it has to do with the thermodynamic principles behind a heat pump or an air conditioner and reactants in the buildings.

Anything to do with heating of air under adiabatic compression? In effect that might make the entire tower into something vaguely resembling a diesel engine cylinder, and things that wouldn't normally combust could go bang. Of course, for a backyard test experiment, you'd need some kind of pressure cylinder in which you could compress air very rapidly, and if you didn't make it strong enough it might be the pressure cylinder that went bang. Is that how you got the steel fragments in your leg?

Dave

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Well, now you're just giving it away :). Or at least part of it. I know the physical phenomenon you seem to be getting at (the word "adiabatic" comes to mind) but not the reactant(s) you have in mind that would be capable of adding a lot of energy to the process in a very short time.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Yes the compression of gasses causes heating of Items in the gasses and the surrounding environment.
Steel dust is the main initiating factor with steam-actually H2O in the Vapor phase would be more accurate the Iron oxide produce reacts with Carbon, and Aluminum, the Aluminum also after ignition reacts with H2O releasing hydrogen the faster the collapse the more compression the more violent the reaction becomes.

My own recipe is take air at 700c and rapidly collapse it with steel dust and steam present, add aluminum and carbon to the mix and run, well at that point it is to late to run. The result is quite extraordinary.

Did I forget to mention also that hydrogen is produce by the reactions as well and that a hydrogen flame is practically invisible in daylight.

It is however the compression of the air column however that makes it all possible. Air resistance caculations are meaningless when compressing an air column leads to added energy in the collapses by enabling other reactions to take place rapidly.

[T.A.M.]

CC you are on crazy M(rule 10) F(rule 10).

TAM:)

[Swing Dangler]

Yes the compression of gasses causes heating of Items in the gasses and the surrounding environment.
Steel dust is the main initiating factor with steam-actually H2O in the Vapor phase would be more accurate the Iron oxide produce reacts with Carbon, and Aluminum, the Aluminum also after ignition reacts with H2O releasing hydrogen the faster the collapse the more compression the more violent the reaction becomes.

My own recipe is take air at 700c and rapidly collapse it with steel dust and steam present, add aluminum and carbon to the mix and run, well at that point it is to late to run. The result is quite extraordinary.

Did I forget to mention also that hydrogen is produce by the reactions as well and that a hydrogen flame is practically invisible in daylight.

It is however the compression of the air column however that makes it all possible. Air resistance caculations are meaningless when compressing an air column leads to added energy in the collapses by enabling other reactions to take place rapidly.

I look forward to seeing this on Youtube!

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Anything to do with heating of air under adiabatic compression? In effect that might make the entire tower into something vaguely resembling a diesel engine cylinder, and things that wouldn't normally combust could go bang. Of course, for a backyard test experiment, you'd need some kind of pressure cylinder in which you could compress air very rapidly, and if you didn't make it strong enough it might be the pressure cylinder that went bang. Is that how you got the steel fragments in your leg?

Dave

The pressure Cylinder made form stainless steel, worked fine, the pieces I am pulling out of my leg are mild steel, from steel dust I think they would be similar to Dr. Jones micro spheres but they however show organic contamination now, Ouch. LOL
Next time more sand bags on for the bunker before doing crazy experiments.
I was not expecting so much energy from the reaction to many sparks and to much acceleration of said sparks.

It was just a few little pieces though, much like a burn from cutting torch sparks nothing major.
Basically what I did was make a cylinder and heated it to 700c, injected steam used a nitrogen charge to insert iron dust, aluminum dust, and carbon dust into the cylinder then an explosive to drive the plunger down.
The result was very interesting indeed not only an explosion but molten metal also. even some small quantity of molten iron, Fe.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I look forward to seeing this on Youtube!

I intend on recreating the experiment when I can, and filming it, although it might be some time it took weeks to build the cylinder, and unfortunately I can only use it once.
This is just the first attempt, I do not record the first attempts, only when I can duplicate the results repeatedly do I bother with documentation.
Now that I know the physics though duplicating it is not that hard. The only hard part is building the Cylinder.

[T.A.M.]

why do I have the uneasy feeling that one day we are going to see a post here from one of your relatives telling us you will be back online in 3 weeks, when you get out of the hospital...

I hope I am wrong...take care...please, CC.

TAM:)

[Swing Dangler]

I intend on recreating the experiment when I can, and filming it, although it might be some time it took weeks to build the cylinder, and unfortunately I can only use it once.
This is just the first attempt, I do not record the first attempts, only when I can duplicate the results repeatedly do I bother with documentation.
Now that I know the physics though duplicating it is not that hard. The only hard part is building the Cylinder.

I'm going to have to second Tam's statement. Don't kill or harm yourself!

[Myriad]

Yes the compression of gasses causes heating of Items in the gasses and the surrounding environment.
Steel dust is the main initiating factor with steam-actually H2O in the Vapor phase would be more accurate the Iron oxide produce reacts with Carbon, and Aluminum, the Aluminum also after ignition reacts with H2O releasing hydrogen the faster the collapse the more compression the more violent the reaction becomes.

My own recipe is take air at 700c and rapidly collapse it with steel dust and steam present, add aluminum and carbon to the mix and run, well at that point it is to late to run. The result is quite extraordinary.

Did I forget to mention also that hydrogen is produce by the reactions as well and that a hydrogen flame is practically invisible in daylight.

It is however the compression of the air column however that makes it all possible. Air resistance caculations are meaningless when compressing an air column leads to added energy in the collapses by enabling other reactions to take place rapidly.


That's very interesting, CC. There's certainly plenty of energy that could be released from those reagents. The dynamics of getting them all together at the pressure front (you're not dealing with a closed pressure vessel in the tower collapses, but a high pressure shock wave is plausible as the air can't all escape quickly from such a large area) sound very tricky, though. Plausible but difficut to show.

Definitely, pile up those sand bags! We wouldn't want to lose you.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Crazy Chainsaw]

That's very interesting, CC. There's certainly plenty of energy that could be released from those reagents. The dynamics of getting them all together at the pressure front (you're not dealing with a closed pressure vessel in the tower collapses, but a high pressure shock wave is plausible as the air can't all escape quickly from such a large area) sound very tricky, though. Plausible but difficut to show.

Definitely, pile up those sand bags! We wouldn't want to lose you.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Here is a paper on something similar to what I feel happened in the collapses.
http://www.electronic-earth-discuss.net/1/81/2006/eed-1-81-2006.html

I want to thank Apollo20 for the link although we were working on the same thing basically from different angles.

I think that collisions and shock waves both played a part in creating energetic conditions and intensifying those conditions in the latter collapse front.

All you need is the compression of one air column in the collapse to begin the process once ignited the conditions of the collapse intensify it. That is the only way I can see it occurring in both towers, on 9/11/2001.

[CHF]

I look forward to seeing this on Youtube!

No hope of truthers understanding it otherwise.

[slyjoe]

No hope of truthers understanding it otherwise.

I think you mean seeing it. Understanding is probably too much to hope for.

[leftysergeant]

In another thread, there was a discussion of utterly dissicated concrete in the rubble. This is, I assume, also applicable to that riddle. Not whacky Judy's death rays. Just tremendous pressure.

[~enigma~]

I have found a source for powerful explosions in the collapses mainly air blasts that would not be evident on seismic data what do you think would caused them?

I will tell you what I found in experiments after I hear some Ideas, it is so easy no one thought of it before.
Not even me.
You mean there was only one cause? i don't get it, in a fire many things could explode or is that incorrect?

[Gravy]

Let's pitch in to buy CC one of these.

http://www.global-security-solutions.com/BombSuit2_files/image002.jpg

[Myriad]

Let's pitch in to buy CC one of these.


So he can fill it with powdered metals and blow it up?

Respectfully,
Myriad

[Gravy]

So he can fill it with powdered metals and blow it up?

Respectfully,
MyriadOkay, maybe something a bit sturdier.

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/eppp-archive/100/201/300/cm/html/2001/v08n02/vol4/no20/suit.jpg

[leftysergeant]

Okay, maybe something a bit sturdier.

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/eppp-archive/100/201/300/cm/html/2001/v08n02/vol4/no20/suit.jpg

Actually, the green suit is better, more flexible so he can work in it. But you forgot the gloves. I'll see if my wife still has her work gloves from her chicken-packing days. Chain mail over a Kevlar liner.

[scratchy]

Listen Chainsaw, im getting worried here. Im a bit of a security kind of guy. You really should have your wife or someone else trigger the ignition while you monitor it all thru video from a safe distance.

[Gravy]

Actually, the green suit is better, more flexible so he can work in it. But you forgot the gloves. I'll see if my wife still has her work gloves from her chicken-packing days. Chain mail over a Kevlar liner.Well, sure, but considering Crazy Chainsaw's occupation, I thought protection from swinging logs might be in order.

-4313295652011110485

[Crazy Chainsaw]

You mean there was only one cause? i don't get it, in a fire many things could explode or is that incorrect?

Your absolutely correct ~enigma~, there would likely be explosions in the buildings because of the fires.
However the debris falling thought the air creating shock waves and Drag effects that compress the air and force heat out of it, multiplies the likely hood of explosions by a factor of at least 10. probably more like 30-40times when you factor in the compounds present in the buildings that can react together to form explosion.
You need reactants and the environment for the reactants to react, the collapse is the perfect environment for the reactants.
The speed of the collapse is so rapid that the air can not be simply displaced so it is compressed causing it to give up massive amounts of heat to reactants in it, which are solid and can not be compressed.
Such as iron dust, and Liquid H2O, Carbon, Carbon monoxide which it has just been pointed out to me is as explosive as LPG, Aluminum and others.
Not only does this form explosions but little round spheres of metal as well a result of the steel dust oxidizing.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

In another thread, there was a discussion of utterly dissicated concrete in the rubble. This is, I assume, also applicable to that riddle. Not whacky Judy's death rays. Just tremendous pressure.

Exactly the pressure generated in the collapse by the increasing mass would be enough to do it.
It would literally Oxidize the floor pans and wire reinforcements in the concrete to iron oxide.
You have a tremendous release of gravitational and Chemical energies combined, and that creates the dust cloud and a lot of the stranger effects.
It would also increase the likely hood of continued reactions in the rubble pile.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Listen Chainsaw, im getting worried here. Im a bit of a security kind of guy. You really should have your wife or someone else trigger the ignition while you monitor it all thru video from a safe distance.

Tried that I loose a lot of cameras that way.

No I should have turned the safety value to the side more but I wanted a good view of the device when it was triggered to confirm the reaction.

The safety value keeps the main device from rupturing if the explosion does not go as anticipated by blowing out a thinner metal plug.
That allows the trapped gasses to vent safely away from me out of the reaction Cylinder. Unfortunately for the tree near the device and for my slightly, very slightly burned leg the reaction Cylinder spun when the gasses were released though the safety Plug hole.
I have to redesign the safety valve hole so that the spinning is avoided in the next model. That should allow the device to work properly.

I was just hit by some hot metal sparks that was all, and only a few of them, I have had worse from using an Oxyacetylene cutting torch on the exhaust pipe of my truck, to weld the pipe together it is really nothing at all bad.

[8den]

Listen Chainsaw, im getting worried here. Im a bit of a security kind of guy. You really should have your wife or someone else trigger the ignition while you monitor it all thru video from a safe distance.

Mate I'd check to ensure your wife doesn't read this thread or someone is going to be sleeping on the couch for quiet a while.

[~enigma~]

This is getting rather Apolloish and rather silly since in a fire there are explosions just as well as chemical reactions. By all means continue whatever you want safely but don't think you are making any revelations.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

This is getting rather Apolloish and rather silly since in a fire there are explosions just as well as chemical reactions. By all means continue whatever you want safely but don't think you are making any revelations.

Fire combustion is only a chemical reaction, would not increasing the available heat in the reactants themselves increase the likelihood of the reactions, such as combustion?
Air resistance is meaningless in the collapse because the increasing mass acts as a piston compressing the air in front of it. As the air compresses heat has to go somewhere, so it transfers into particles solids and liquids, that are in the front edge, or suspended in the Compressible Gasses.
As the heat increases It causes reactions in the gas and along the collapse front to be more likely and to increase the energy potential, when the debris finally hits and releases more energy creating a very pronounce effect of fluid dynamics and pulverized material, hot gasses and metallic suspended particles.

As had been stated it is similar to the compression Ignition of a diesel engine, which is where I got the idea, ever wonder why a diesel engine does not require a spark ignition source, the combination of the heat absorbed by the diesel and the friction of the spray into the compressed air ignites the diesel fuel in the combustion chamber without a spark.
Most diesels time at 15 to 10 degrees before TDC (top dead center)to give the diesel fuel from the high pressure injection pump time to reach the cylinders to be ignited by the combination of heat and friction in the compressed air inside the cylinder.

[~enigma~]

Fire combustion is only a chemical reaction, would not increasing the available heat in the reactants themselves increase the likelihood of the reactions, such as combustion?
Air resistance is meaningless in the collapse because the increasing mass acts as a piston compressing the air in front of it. As the air compresses heat has to go somewhere, so it transfers into particles solids and liquids, that are in the front edge, or suspended in the Compressible Gasses.
As the heat increases It causes reactions in the gas and along the collapse front to be more likely and to increase the energy potential, when the debris finally hits and releases more energy creating a very pronounce effect of fluid dynamics and pulverized material, hot gasses and metallic suspended particles.

As had been stated it is similar to the compression Ignition of a diesel engine, which is where I got the idea, ever wonder why a diesel engine does not require a spark ignition source, the combination of the heat absorbed by the diesel and the friction of the spray into the compressed air ignites the diesel fuel in the combustion chamber without a spark.
Most diesels time at 15 to 10 degrees before TDC (top dead center)to give the diesel fuel from the high pressure injection pump time to reach the cylinders to be ignited by the combination of heat and friction in the compressed air inside the cylinder.
i am going to answer you the same way I answered Apollo. In a fire reactions happen as well as explosions.

You read my thoughts above. Sorry if you find them to be a problem but they are the truth.

[realitybites]

Crazy Chainsaw -

While I think we can all appreciate your knowledge and tenacity in experimenting with your theories, I personally do not feel they stand up to more rigorous and logical attempts at explaining the collapses that use cardboard and chicken wire.

Clunkity-clunk my friend.

.... Clunkity-clunk.

/sarcasm

[Mr. Skinny]

Tried that I loose a lot of cameras that way.

No I should have turned the safety value to the side more but I wanted a good view of the device when it was triggered to confirm the reaction.

The safety value keeps the main device from rupturing if the explosion does not go as anticipated by blowing out a thinner metal plug.
That allows the trapped gasses to vent safely away from me out of the reaction Cylinder. Unfortunately for the tree near the device and for my slightly, very slightly burned leg the reaction Cylinder spun when the gasses were released though the safety Plug hole.
I have to redesign the safety valve hole so that the spinning is avoided in the next model. That should allow the device to work properly.

I was just hit by some hot metal sparks that was all, and only a few of them, I have had worse from using an Oxyacetylene cutting torch on the exhaust pipe of my truck, to weld the pipe together it is really nothing at all bad.
[off topic]
Crazy Chainsaw's experiment is a fine example of why I have a career as a Safety Engineer.

Thanks to researchers like CC, I'm sure I'll remain employed. However, if he ever works at my laboratory, we'll need to have a serious talk. :) [/off topic]

[Elizabeth I]

An angry father with a shotgun knocked the towers down? :eye-poppi

Respectfully,
Myriad

I'm so glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee when I read that.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Crazy Chainsaw -

While I think we can all appreciate your knowledge and tenacity in experimenting with your theories, I personally do not feel they stand up to more rigorous and logical attempts at explaining the collapses that use cardboard and chicken wire.

Clunkity-clunk my friend.

.... Clunkity-clunk.

/sarcasm


Yes I too laughed at the Chicken wire experiments.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

[off topic]
Crazy Chainsaw's experiment is a fine example of why I have a career as a Safety Engineer.

Thanks to researchers like CC, I'm sure I'll remain employed. However, if he ever works at my laboratory, we'll need to have a serious talk. :) [/off topic]

Ha I used a safety valve designed adapted from Aerospace safety research designed to test the strength of rocket fuel at different pressures.

It was the design of the safety valve that was flawed, should had designed my own. I now see that by allowing the metal valve to remain attached to the cylinder was a mistake it created a point that allowed the venting pressure to spin the cylinder by deflecting it off at an angle.
Simply weakening both sides of the metal and allowing the valve to blow clear prevents the spin effect.
With the plug blowing clear all you get is the hot venting gasses coming out the safety plug.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

i am going to answer you the same way I answered Apollo. In a fire reactions happen as well as explosions.

You read my thoughts above. Sorry if you find them to be a problem but they are the truth.

The only problem ~enigma~ is what you can not answer, what is exploding and why, that is all I am seeking, answers is it so bad to be scientificly curious about the collapses or are you just not interested in what the possible reactions and reatants were and what were the causes of the reactions?
What potential is added to the energy for reactions after the collapse and for continued heating of the rubble pile?
That is all I seek to understand what I can not understand is why that troubles you.

[Gravy]

The only problem ~enigma~ is what you can not answer, what is exploding and why, that is all I am seeking, answers is it so bad to be scientificly curious about the collapses or are you just not interested in what the possible reactions and reatants were and what were the causes of the reactions?
What potential is added to the energy for reactions after the collapse and for continued heating of the rubble pile?
That is all I seek to understand what I can not understand is why that troubles you.I think the idea that what CC is describing could cause explosions is very interesting. I don't know of any mysterious observations that need to be explained in the WTC collapses, but it's interesting nonetheless. Be safe, CC.

[~enigma~]

I think the idea that what CC is describing could cause explosions is very interesting. I don't know of any mysterious observations that need to be explained in the WTC collapses, but it's interesting nonetheless. Be safe, CC.
Exactly, nobody said it isn't interesting. But it is unnecessary and since in a fire reactions of all kind happen and next are we going to examine the reaction between plastic computer casings and the nylon fibers in the peoples clothes?

[~enigma~]

The only problem ~enigma~ is what you can not answer, what is exploding and why, that is all I am seeking, answers is it so bad to be scientificly curious about the collapses or are you just not interested in what the possible reactions and reatants were and what were the causes of the reactions?
What potential is added to the energy for reactions after the collapse and for continued heating of the rubble pile?
That is all I seek to understand what I can not understand is why that troubles you.
Curiosity is not bad and i don't have any idea how you read that into what I said. I simply said in fires reactions happen. Where did I say curiosity is no good? You are embarking on what to me is a senseless journey since as soon as you find another reaction that causes or contributes to any or all explosions then this whole thing gets started again and will continue forever.

[Apollo20]

Chainsaw:

Pay no heed to Enigma/TXguy. If you check back you will see his posts are mostly useless drivel that contribute nothing to the debate.

As for you latest research, it is very interesting indeed. I think you need to consider adiabatic heating more quantitatively. The formula for this shows that it depends on the compression ratio. For a diesel engine this is typically 12 - 24 and the compressed gas is heated by 600 - 700 deg C.

However, for the collapse of a WTC tower, I doubt that you could realistically get a compression ratio much higher than about 8 in which case the air/dust momentarily trapped in the space between collapsing floors could not be adiabatically heated by more than about 400 deg C.

Nevertheless this is still significant heating!

[~enigma~]

Chainsaw:

Pay no heed to Enigma/TXguy. If you check back you will see his posts are mostly useless drivel that contribute nothing to the debate.

As for you latest research, it is very interesting indeed. I think you need to consider adiabatic heating more quantitatively. The formula for this shows that it depends on the compression ratio. For a diesel engine this is typically 12 - 24 and the compressed gas is heated by 600 - 700 deg C.

However, for the collapse of a WTC tower, I doubt that you could realistically get a compression ratio much higher than about 8 in which case the air/dust momentarily trapped in the space between collapsing floors could not be adiabatically heated by more than about 400 deg C.

Nevertheless this is still significant heating!
Drivel? That is as much as I could expect for someone like you.

[Lisa Simpson]

Stick to the topic at hand and do not sling virtual mud at each other, or it's off to AAH-land. That goes for everyone.

[westprog]

why do I have the uneasy feeling that one day we are going to see a post here from one of your relatives telling us you will be back online in 3 weeks, when you get out of the hospital...


I think that's a best-case scenario.


I hope I am wrong...take care...please, CC.

TAM:)

This is where I'm conflicted. Yes, I would like him to avoid having a large chunk of metal embedded in his forehead. At the same time, I want him to carry on making things blow up.

[GT/CS]

So for a layperson who took only one theremodynamics class and hated it are you more-or-less describing a pressurized grain elevator explosion, in a very rough sense? Or more accurately a huge diesel engine with the cylinders filled with dust and other stuff?

[Mr. Skinny]

Ha I used a safety valve designed adapted from Aerospace safety research designed to test the strength of rocket fuel at different pressures.

It was the design of the safety valve that was flawed, should had designed my own. I now see that by allowing the metal valve to remain attached to the cylinder was a mistake it created a point that allowed the venting pressure to spin the cylinder by deflecting it off at an angle.
Simply weakening both sides of the metal and allowing the valve to blow clear prevents the spin effect.
With the plug blowing clear all you get is the hot venting gasses coming out the safety plug.
Not quite sure what you're proposing here. Sounds like you are expecting two opposing safety relief valves (or plugs) to release at the same time, allowing counter forces to prevent spin???

If so, PM me with your test set-up and I'll give it a "sanity check" (not implying you are insane, BTW).

Why not just clamp the vessel down so it can't spin? :confused: Don't understand your set-up, frankly.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Chainsaw:

Pay no heed to Enigma/TXguy. If you check back you will see his posts are mostly useless drivel that contribute nothing to the debate.

As for you latest research, it is very interesting indeed. I think you need to consider adiabatic heating more quantitatively. The formula for this shows that it depends on the compression ratio. For a diesel engine this is typically 12 - 24 and the compressed gas is heated by 600 - 700 deg C.

However, for the collapse of a WTC tower, I doubt that you could realistically get a compression ratio much higher than about 8 in which case the air/dust momentarily trapped in the space between collapsing floors could not be adiabatically heated by more than about 400 deg C.

Nevertheless this is still significant heating!

The amazing thing I have found out about internal combustion engines especially diesels over the years, the hotter the engine the more efficient, up to a certain point.
The temperature of the air compressed, and the compression ratio both contribute to the heating of the particles in the air.
Heating of the particles then adds energy though reactions, and also causes other reactions to occur.
In the towers there is potential for multiple zones of compression to occur. With each compression adding more heating.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

So for a layperson who took only one theremodynamics class and hated it are you more-or-less describing a pressurized grain elevator explosion, in a very rough sense? Or more accurately a huge diesel engine with the cylinders filled with dust and other stuff?


It would be simular to both, only it would occur in the compression zones ahead of the falling debris. Think of atmospheric drag on an object, each object that falls moves air out of the way so it can fall.

When an object falls though air it compresses the air in front of it into a high pressure wave. When that air can not exit it compresses further increasing the BTU's released. Those BTUs have to go somewhere so they go into the compounds in the air itself, that causes reactions.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Not quite sure what you're proposing here. Sounds like you are expecting two opposing safety relief valves (or plugs) to release at the same time, allowing counter forces to prevent spin???

If so, PM me with your test set-up and I'll give it a "sanity check" (not implying you are insane, BTW).

Why not just clamp the vessel down so it can't spin? :confused: Don't understand your set-up, frankly.

I did clamp the vessel down, the safety valve I copied had a hinge that allowed it to blow but not detach from the cylinder, it was the hinge that malfunctioned and caused the spin breaking the clamp the hinge did not open all way I think I used better material than was used in the rocket propellant tests.
I intend on simplifying the hinge to a total blow out hinge that does not remain attached.
That should make it a lot safer and more dependable.
Now that I know what to expect I have a totally different and safer way to do the tests anyway.
I am working on a much safer setup, basically I am going to use high pressure air instead of explosives next time and a smaller amount of reactants.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Curiosity is not bad and i don't have any idea how you read that into what I said. I simply said in fires reactions happen. Where did I say curiosity is no good? You are embarking on what to me is a senseless journey since as soon as you find another reaction that causes or contributes to any or all explosions then this whole thing gets started again and will continue forever.

:D No I am quite confident I have found the reactions that would have added the most energy to the collapses and the debris that fell into the rubble pile!

This reaction was a catalyst for later reactions, so understanding it helps me understand a lot of what was happening in the debris cloud and in the rubble pile.

There is probably a very easy fix to prevent such a reaction from taking place again in other buildings collapses so that some reactions do not occur in them lessening damage to property and the environment, and air pollution.

I just thought that it might be best to know all we can about what happened on 9/11/2001 so that the harmful effects to property, life, and the environment could be abated in say a collapse from another fire, or from earth quake and fire. I just thought it was important to increase human understanding so that we could progress beyond what we know today.

[Mr. Skinny]

I did clamp the vessel down, the safety valve I copied had a hinge that allowed it to blow but not detach from the cylinder, it was the hinge that malfunctioned and caused the spin breaking the clamp the hinge did not open all way I think I used better material than was used in the rocket propellant tests.
I intend on simplifying the hinge to a total blow out hinge that does not remain attached.
That should make it a lot safer and more dependable.
Now that I know what to expect I have a totally different and safer way to do the tests anyway.
I am working on a much safer setup, basically I am going to use high pressure air instead of explosives next time and a smaller amount of reactants.
CC, the offer to review your setup still stands, should you choose to use it.

It's what I do for a living. Might take me a few days to review, but if you can handle the delay, it might be preferable to being in the hospital, or dead.

I'm in awe of your curious nature.

[leftysergeant]

Exactly the pressure generated in the collapse by the increasing mass would be enough to do it.
It would literally Oxidize the floor pans and wire reinforcements in the concrete to iron oxide.
You have a tremendous release of gravitational and Chemical energies combined, and that creates the dust cloud and a lot of the stranger effects.
It would also increase the likely hood of continued reactions in the rubble pile.

So that explains how the meteorite at Hangar 17 was formed. Are you also including in this theory the production of hydrogen by passing steam over iron?

And would the concrete thus heated and dessicated for different compounds which might act like slaked lime when wet, produce carbide gases, or some such thing?

[Apollo20]

Chainsaw:

Interestingly, if you are correct on this, I see two models of the WTC collapse:

The internal combustion engine model

The diesel engine model

If there was SPARKING, from natural thermite reactions for example, the collapse simulated an internal combustion engine that could be ignited with a compression ratio of say 5 or 6.

If there was no sparking, the collapse could behave like a diesel engine but it would need a compression ratio of at least 10 to function that way.

A compression ratio of 12 would mean one 12 ft WTC floor would be compressed to 1 foot which probably did NOT happen to the trapped air.

I suspect that a compression to 2 ft (compression ratio of 6) would be quite possible .... however, in this case you would need sparking, (or a source of ignition), to release the chemical energy stored in the gas and dust.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

So that explains how the meteorite at Hangar 17 was formed. Are you also including in this theory the production of hydrogen by passing steam over iron?

And would the concrete thus heated and dessicated for different compounds which might act like slaked lime when wet, produce carbide gases, or some such thing?

Yes, Hydrogen is included as is the combustion of carbon with hot Iron oxide, Hot iron oxide can produce a dust that can burn the rubber mostly carbon around a car window and leave the inside of the car untouched.
IT only burns where it contacts and provides direct oxidation from the iron oxide.

Yes the concrete would react not only as staked lime, but the moisture in the concrete itself would be super heated steam when fully impacted and would probably react with the steel wire reinforcements or re-bar.
So that the resulting reaction would be the quick lime process Which I believe is the reaction your referring to.

There is a lot of fascinating stuff that happens in the collapses, I think that they are worth scientific study, but I also know they will probably never be fully and totally understood. So I want to concentrate the study on the most energetic phenomena for two reasons, one it is easier to observe, and two there might be something that can be done to minimize or eliminate the damage caused my it.

The more we know the better, we might be able to make subtle changes that has Damage abatement effects on collapses in the future.

[GT/CS]

Where would these compressions/explosions occur? The windows would blow out instantly so the only sealed places where pressure could build would seem to be in the elevator shafts and stairwells.

[leftysergeant]

Where would these compressions/explosions occur? The windows would blow out instantly so the only sealed places where pressure could build would seem to be in the elevator shafts and stairwells.There would be air spaces between colliding floors that would trap air even as some of it wass expelled. The florr trusses would act as spacers for a brief instant before they were crushed, most likely exposing a lot of fresh steel to react with the air and water of hydration.

Bear in mind, though that this may just be an added source of energy. I have my doubts about the amount of energy needed to collapse the floors. We know that there was a lot of energy building up inside the walls. This pushed the columns outward from the top like peeling a banana. The joint between the perimeter columns and the floor pans was not really all that impressive. The outward pressure on the columns probably stressed tose joints at least as much as the collision of upper floors slabs did. So we need not add an awful lot of energy to the mix.

The collapse itself sounded like a series of explosions, but let's face it. It had to be horrendously loud, like no sound any of the witnesses had heard before. They would, of course, have to assosciate it with something they had heard before, and the closest thing would be HE detonating. Were they expecting to just hear steel clanging?

This goes a long way to account for the speed and energy of the collapse, but does not, as far as I can determine, address the initiation. But, as someone else has pointed out, there were a lot of other processes involved at jusat about any given time from the instant the aircraft struck.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Chainsaw:

Interestingly, if you are correct on this, I see two models of the WTC collapse:

The internal combustion engine model

The diesel engine model

If there was SPARKING, from natural thermite reactions for example, the collapse simulated an internal combustion engine that could be ignited with a compression ratio of say 5 or 6.

If there was no sparking, the collapse could behave like a diesel engine but it would need a compression ratio of at least 10 to function that way.

A compression ratio of 12 would mean one 12 ft WTC floor would be compressed to 1 foot which probably did NOT happen to the trapped air.

I suspect that a compression to 2 ft (compression ratio of 6) would be quite possible .... however, in this case you would need sparking, (or a source of ignition), to release the chemical energy stored in the gas and dust.

You actually have two sources the hot carbons in the fires, friction on metals making them reactive, plus we already know there are several chloride and sulfate reactions in the buildings.
The model I have been looking at all along is the internal combustion engine, with a modest 5 ratio, possibly 6 but not much higher.
As for Aluminum in that collapse aluminum reactions are as likely as Ice in Antarctica in June-July the heart of the antarctic winter, the environment favors them.
My compression test only had a 3.5-4 ratio but I heated the air to 700c, the temperature of the debris as indicated by NIST added steam and steel dust and aluminum dust, and it worked, Probably a little to well. ;)

You do not have to remove the air from the buildings in the collapses, just compress it, it is a compressible gas, and that allows for added energy from reactions enhancing other effects because solids and liquids can not be compressed only gasses.
The wide open spaces in the buildings makes all this possible.
Also hot gasses going into lower floors carrying hot particles and carbons ahead of the collapse front would act as a coal tailings burning refractory heater.
They use hot sand particles in an air stream to cause coal tailings to burn, coal tailings are usually not very good at combustion, because of shale particles mixed in with the coal, but if you use hot sand particles and injected air they do burn vigorously.

I want to find the minimal temperature, and pressures at which a reaction can take place, but it would explain much of what was seen in the later aspects of the collapses.
Including the spheres and the concrete, the debris cloud, and more, I can not say if I am right or wrong it is only an interesting point to study for now.

Dr. Fetzer and Dr. Woods treat the air as a fluid only they seem to forget about the air being a compressible gas, and that the gravitational energy can compress said gas releasing the thermal energy in the gas, Which in turn causes other reactions.
That appears to be the Main flaw in their work just as neglecting impact energy is Dr. Joneses main flaw in his work.
I see the same mistakes again and again people neglecting to account for potential energies that trigger release of more energy in the collapse. It seem to be a common mistake.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

CC, the offer to review your setup still stands, should you choose to use it.

It's what I do for a living. Might take me a few days to review, but if you can handle the delay, it might be preferable to being in the hospital, or dead.

I'm in awe of your curious nature.

As soon as I have a new design drawn up I will email you a copy I apreciate the help I do not want to blow myself up again once was enough.:D

You would not believe how hard water feels when you skip across the top of it like a rock skipping on the surface tension. I would swear it felt like I was scraping across black top. However that is another story from my youth and no one wants to hear what a young boy in the country did when he was bored stiff and had a few extra sticks if trinitrotoluene around, courtesy of the oil well drillers.

[leftysergeant]

Funny. I just had an interesting conversation today with a young woman in a grocery store about how children learn. Her little munchkin was attempting to manipulate any produce that came within arms reach. I pointed out to her that a child who is just sitting quietly and staying out of trouble is not learning anything, and that that was why God gives mommies a sense of humor.

I am sure that you crearted a lot of learning experiences for yourself. I am, further, sure that someone else's sense of humor saved from some other unpleasantries. I am sure that your parents needed something to help them deal with the occassional fears.

Geeze. You almost scare me.

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Funny. I just had an interesting conversation today with a young woman in a grocery store about how children learn. Her little munchkin was attempting to manipulate any produce that came within arms reach. I pointed out to her that a child who is just sitting quietly and staying out of trouble is not learning anything, and that that was why God gives mommies a sense of humor.

I am sure that you crearted a lot of learning experiences for yourself. I am, further, sure that someone else's sense of humor saved from some other unpleasantries. I am sure that your parents needed something to help them deal with the occassional fears.

Geeze. You almost scare me.

I grew up in Kentucky on a farm in Hancock Co. Ky. my play mates were timber Rattle snakes, copper heads, black widow spiders, foxes and wild dogs, Oil wells were everywhere, I was using chainsaws at age 7, we used to in winter time when we wanted to warm ourselves up quickly, after sleding we would light off one of the gas wells, in the oil fields and shoot out a 30 to 50 foot flame. We took old junk cars and raced them backwards they mostly would not pull themselves forwards anymore, though the woods just to see which one of us could get though the tangled stumps the farthest.
I have to admit I had a lot of fun in my preteen years.
My first part time job other than chainsaw carving was packing explosive and setting charges in the oil fields on new wells. Or to remove stumps,or stones, for farmers, or to split big logs, for the saw mills.

The most dangerous thing in my life is not explosive but women two of them honestly tried to kill me, one with a double barrel twelve Gage with double OO buck shot, and the other tried to run me down with a Lincoln continental.
I have at least some control over the explosives I had none over the nut cases I choose to date. The beautiful quiet types are deadly, stay away from them!
I have often thought of writting a book about my life story but who would ever believe it?

Sorry did not mean to get off topic, just wanted to explain my life has been quite ordinary, and I am most definately not crazy. Just life experiences where I grew up.

[leftysergeant]

I think it was Mark Twain who said "Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense."

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I think it was Mark Twain who said "Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense."

Tell me about it, that is actually one of my favorite quotes, of the three women that I have fallen head over heels for, 1 tried to shoot me, one tried to run me down with a Lincoln Continental, the third was a Lesbian and just was not interested.
I have at least found explosives when properly handled to be safe and predictable as long as they are given plenty of respect.
Relationships however have been chaotic and dangerous and a lot more fun though I am just getting to old to be shot at, and I can not run that fast anymore.

[T.A.M.]

I grew up in Kentucky on a farm in Hancock Co. Ky. my play mates were timber Rattle snakes, copper heads, black widow spiders, foxes and wild dogs, Oil wells were everywhere, I was using chainsaws at age 7, we used to in winter time when we wanted to warm ourselves up quickly, after sleding we would light off one of the gas wells, in the oil fields and shoot out a 30 to 50 foot flame. We took old junk cars and raced them backwards they mostly would not pull themselves forwards anymore, though the woods just to see which one of us could get though the tangled stumps the farthest.
I have to admit I had a lot of fun in my preteen years.
My first part time job other than chainsaw carving was packing explosive and setting charges in the oil fields on new wells. Or to remove stumps,or stones, for farmers, or to split big logs, for the saw mills.

The most dangerous thing in my life is not explosive but women two of them honestly tried to kill me, one with a double barrel twelve Gage with double OO buck shot, and the other tried to run me down with a Lincoln continental.
I have at least some control over the explosives I had none over the nut cases I choose to date. The beautiful quiet types are deadly, stay away from them!
I have often thought of writting a book about my life story but who would ever believe it?

Sorry did not mean to get off topic, just wanted to explain my life has been quite ordinary, and I am most definately not crazy. Just life experiences where I grew up.

Why do I have this nagging suspicion that you are that guy explaining things outside his house on the show "COPS" every week...lol

As for researching all of these possible contributors to heat and combustion in the WTCs, I think it is worthwhile, because it helps add to the body of knowledge on the topic, AND if proven correct, or plausible, it helps us see how those high temps needed to weaken the WTC steel actually occured/happened.

Just don't blow yourself up CC.

TAM:)

[Myriad]

II have often thought of writting a book about my life story but who would ever believe it?


People would buy it. Does it matter whether they'd believe it?

Respectfully,
Myriad

ETA: I found The Anarchist's Cookbook deeply disappointing. Even as a law-abiding teenager I could tell that there was a lot of made-up stuff in there. (Not to mention that for an anarchist, the author seemed to put an awful lot of priority on keeping others in line by force.) The Chainsaw Chronicles would make a much better book -- like Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential, a book about cooking that's not a cookbook.