To what does the 'educational' refer in JREF?

[athon]

I should probably title this 'How far does the 'educational' in JREF extend?', to be honest, but am curious as to what others think about the educational value of the JREF.

As most of you who know me already know, I'm a science teacher who specialises in critical literacy and higher order thinking principles in education. To say that there is no educational value in the JREF's activities is wrong, to say the least, however I'm curious as to the other's views of whether it really is an educational foundation.

One thing that struck me recently was that there was no information on what educational programs or projects the recipients of this year's scholarships would be devoting their scholarship funds towards. I'm sure they are all worthy skeptics, and there might be information I'm missing, however I wonder if this money will extend as a flow-on effect, supporting education as a means, or whether it is an ends itself (the scholars are themselves the 'educated'). I don't feel the latter is as worthy as the former.

I believe that there is more that could be done as an educational foundation, if that is a central part of the JREF's goals. Recently we witnessed change to the forums which was allegedly the result of teacher input on using the forums in their classrooms. I won't detail that debate again, however I do point it out as further evidence of questioning the level of educational committment the JREF holds.

I admit I might be well out of line entirely on the issue, yet am addressing this with the perception of an educator who has taken critical thinking and skepticism in education seriously.

Athon

[DiskoVilante]

I agree with your sentiments. I was actually pondering over a very similar question last night. I don't really see much educational outreach going on. The website is great and useful, but what else is there?

[tkingdoll]

"To what does the 'educational' refer to in JREF?" you don't need the second 'to'.

That aside, your question is a good one. It could be that the 'E' is simply a general theme for the foundation (for example, Randi's entire post-magic magic career could be called one of education, and the foundation is a base for Randi, so that would be an acceptable use of the word).

But, yes. Apart from Swift and providing these forums and the not-as-useful main JREF website, what does JREF actually do?

I don't want the answer to that to simply be 'it organises fundraising conferences' because that is the tail wagging the dog. An organisation that exists to raise money to the support the organisation that exists to raise money...and round we go. I'm sure there's more to JREF than that.

But...what?

[CFLarsen]

TAM is not just a fund raiser for JREF, it is also the biggest skeptical gathering in the known Universe (apart from Planet X, where everyone's a skeptic, and all are infested by the Overmind). The speakers are educational, networking with other skeptics around the globe is educational.

Then, there's the Amazing Adventures.

Then, there's Randi's lectures.

Then, there's the availability of Randi: Send him an email about anything, and you'll get a reply.

Then, there's the Encyclopedia, free for all.

Then, there's the JREF Store.

Then, there's the million dollar challenge.

Then, there's the podcasts.

I'm sure I forgot a few things.

[athon]

"To what does the 'educational' refer to in JREF?" you don't need the second 'to'.

Haha, it's the curse of not being about to edit titles. As soon as it went up I cursed out loud.

That aside, your question is a good one. It could be that the 'E' is simply a general theme for the foundation (for example, Randi's entire post-magic magic career could be called one of education, and the foundation is a base for Randi, so that would be an acceptable use of the word).

I agree. I often wonder whether it is my own 'goals' that I impose on the word and simply desire more of an educational focus when really the term isn't used in such a capacity. I guess that's why I asked; to see if my view was heavily biased by my own wishes.

But, yes. Apart from Swift and providing these forums and the not-as-useful main JREF website, what does JREF actually do?

I don't want the answer to that to simply be 'it organises fundraising conferences' because that is the tail wagging the dog. An organisation that exists to raise money to the support the organisation that exists to raise money...and round we go. I'm sure there's more to JREF than that.

But...what?

The latest kick, for me, was the scholarships. I didn't apply so this isn't me being bitter (I didn't apply as I honestly didn't have any educational projects that I personally wanted to devote resources to currently), but I felt the money would serve the JREF better if it went to people who demonstrated they were actively using it for some communicational or educational purposes. Again, maybe it did. I don't know the full story. But it seems of those who won it this year, most were merely skeptical students.

I'm unsure whether I'm overbeating the education drum or not. But I'm seeing a potentially wasted resource in the JREF. As you said, while it's demonstrating a capacity to fundraise, to what end is this?

Athon

[athon]

TAM is not just a fund raiser for JREF, it is also the biggest skeptical gathering in the known Universe (apart from Planet X, where everyone's a skeptic, and all are infested by the Overmind). The speakers are educational, networking with other skeptics around the globe is educational.

While I agree there is some communication and networking value in TAM, its educational capacity is very limited. I for one can't say any TAM has 'taught' me a great deal. Pedagogically it is not educational at all, but rather 'informational' (and I know I'm being pedantic about my definitions of education there).

Then, there's the Amazing Adventures. Again, the networking is beneficial, but educational?

Then, there's Randi's lectures. Granted

Then, there's the availability of Randi: Send him an email about anything, and you'll get a reply.

Not true. I've sent Randi about a dozen emails over the past six years, and four have been replied to. Of the rest, about five or six requested some information on a topic. I don't begrudge him not responding at all, as he's a busy man. There are many emails I send out which don't get replies. But to insist he himself is the 'E' in JREF does not do the foundation justice.

Then, there's the Encyclopedia, free for all. Again, true. And a decent resource. But again, hardly worth the foundation being described as an 'educational' foundation.

Then, there's the JREF Store. Randi's books and videos could be considered educational resources. But does an online reference manual and an online store for books really do the term 'education' justice? Informative, certainly. And I'm prepared to think I'm being pedantic about the term education. However, there is a certain activity and pedagogical involvement which distinguishes communication and information from education.

Then, there's the million dollar challenge. A worthy publicity stunt, but I wouldn't call it educational.

Then, there's the podcasts. Skeptics Guide is a good podcast, but is affiliated with the JREF. I stand to be corrected, but as far as I'm aware this isn't the JREF itself, but rather Randi contributing.

I'm sure I forgot a few things. Feel free to add them in as you think of them.

Athon

[tkingdoll]

TAM is not just a fund raiser for JREF, it is also the biggest skeptical gathering in the known Universe (apart from Planet X, where everyone's a skeptic, and all are infested by the Overmind). The speakers are educational, networking with other skeptics around the globe is educational.



If you're rich enough to go. Great. It's a fundraiser. For what?

Then, there's the Amazing Adventures.

If you're rich enough to go. Great. It's a fundraiser. For what?

Then, there's Randi's lectures.

Sure, but those are rare.

Then, there's the availability of Randi: Send him an email about anything, and you'll get a reply.

Well, you could say the same about me. Does that mean I'm an educational foundation? Plus, that's not the aim of the JREF, surely? Being able to email James Randi isn't exactly a practical resource in the grand scheme of education.

Then, there's the Encyclopedia, free for all.

And publicised nowhere, not properly searchable, not updated (I think) and IMHO not particularly good. Plus...so what? An online encyclopedia does not an educational resource make. Education is pro-active, the encyclopedia is static. How many people actually use it?

Then, there's the JREF Store.

Merchandise for fans who can afford it. It's a fundraiser. For what?

Then, there's the million dollar challenge.

What's that got to do with education?

Then, there's the podcasts.

Agreed. That's a definite tick in the 'education' box.

We're not talking about what JREF does generally, we're talking about what JREF does in an 'educational' capacity. I'm not saying the answer is 'nothing', I'm saying it might be something but they're not great at shouting about it.

[CFLarsen]

If you're rich enough to go. Great. It's a fundraiser. For what?
...
If you're rich enough to go. Great. It's a fundraiser. For what?
...
Merchandise for fans who can afford it. It's a fundraiser. For what?

To keep JREF going. But it's also more than just a fundraiser.

Sure, but those are rare.

That's up to those who want to book Randi for a lecture.

Well, you could say the same about me. Does that mean I'm an educational foundation? Plus, that's not the aim of the JREF, surely? Being able to email James Randi isn't exactly a practical resource in the grand scheme of education.

Considering the lack of responses from soooo many other organizations (you being in the 'net biz know all about those), it is very refreshing that someone will give you a straight answer.

How many times have we not waited in vain for a response? I sure don't when I contact Randi.

And publicised nowhere

(cough) (http://www.randi.org/)

, not properly searchable,

True, it lacks a search function. It is, however, an encyclopedia, so you can look up stuff.

not updated (I think) and IMHO not particularly good.

Oh, I dunno about that. I found a random entry on Gyorgi Egely (http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/Egely,%20Gyorgy.html), who doesn't even have an entry in the English Wikipedia (although he does in the Hungarian (http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egely_Gy%C3%B6rgy).)

Plus...so what? An online encyclopedia does not an educational resource make. Education is pro-active, the encyclopedia is static. How many people actually use it?

I do. A lot. I've also included it in the Crossreference section (http://skepticreport.com/crossref/crossreference.htm) at SkepticReport.

What's that got to do with education?

A lot: The Challenge is a media-stunt, but certainly also a clever way of telling people that here's a guy who puts his (well, not his) money where his mouth is: JREF is much more than just words.

Agreed. That's a definite tick in the 'education' box.

Yeah. But that's also static - you have to do something to get the info, just as you have to do something to get the info in the encyclopedia.

We're not talking about what JREF does generally, we're talking about what JREF does in an 'educational' capacity. I'm not saying the answer is 'nothing', I'm saying it might be something but they're not great at shouting about it.

Maybe they see what they do generally as educational.

[tkingdoll]

Putting a link to something on your own homepage is not what I meant by publicising it.

All of your answers involve people having to come to the JREF. I want to know what the JREF is doing to go to people.

Yes, TAM raises money to keep JREF going. To do what? Organise more fundraisers?

[H3LL]

I'd like to throw this one back at you, Athon and also criticise myself.

I agree that the JREF should do a lot more but I'm a little unsure as to how.

Some time ago, you were putting together a critical thinking lesson plan on these forums and it just fizzled out (correct me if I'm wrong).

Not having access to subscription based lesson resources, my own, not so great, Introduction To Critical Thinking scheme of work and session plan also fizzled out on these forums (completed now and used - but sceptical of its effectiveness - so not here).

While constructing the plans, I found few resources available to develop a SMART programme and I strongly suspect that it was only successful and implemented because no-one else had a clue what I was trying to do. :D

In addition, on request, an area for flyers and other bite-sized documents highlighting common counter-arguments for various woo was made available on the JREF. On a quick look, I can't see it now, and my own contribution has been very weak. Permission from Richard Dawkins to add his flyer being the only thing I got around to doing.


More resources for educating and more educating..I agree.

Who is going to do it?...Not the staff of JREF...A finite resource already stretched, I understand.

Forumites? Well it just isn't happening, and I'm as guilty as anyone.

Threads disappearing into the dungeons is not an effective way to have educational resources available.

Constant linking to sites such as talkorigins.org are all well and good, but that site is hardly user friendly, excellent though it is.

Claus seems busy with other things since April...His site and his skills could be useful..some good articles there but difficult to adapt to educating.

I have my own ideas as to how more education can be achieved (I'm probably wrong) but I suspect that the JREF is not the best vehicle. Getting sceptical people into the media spotlight is what Randi is good at and should continue as he is. It's passive educating but still useful.

.

[CFLarsen]

Putting a link to something on your own homepage is not what I meant by publicising it.

Look at the "(cough)" link.

All of your answers involve people having to come to the JREF. I want to know what the JREF is doing to go to people.

Yes, TAM raises money to keep JREF going. To do what? Organise more fundraisers?

I'm not sure what you mean by "go to people".

[tkingdoll]

I looked at the link. It goes to randi.org

[CFLarsen]

I looked at the link. It goes to randi.org

Scroll down. That's where it is published.

[tkingdoll]

Scroll down. That's where it is published.

Nearly 100% of the world does not visit randi.org.

Putting something on your OWN homepage is not going to reach anyone except those already looking for you, assuming they succeed in finding you and that their landing page is the homepage. You see the distinction?

Publicising something means going elsewhere and saying "look at this thing here, it's great, come and see".

[CFLarsen]

Nearly 100% of the world does not visit randi.org.

Putting something on your OWN homepage is not going to reach anyone except those already looking for you, assuming they succeed in finding you and that their landing page is the homepage. You see the distinction?

Publicising something means going elsewhere and saying "look at this thing here, it's great, come and see".

What do you suggest, then?

[tkingdoll]

What do you suggest, then?

I've given plenty of free marketing advice to Jeff in private.

But, the first thing I would suggest is a marketing plan. The second thing I would suggest is spending a small amount of money on marketing.

[CFLarsen]

I've given plenty of free marketing advice to Jeff in private.

But, the first thing I would suggest is a marketing plan. The second thing I would suggest is spending a small amount of money on marketing.

Could you be a little more concrete?

[tkingdoll]

Could you be a little more concrete?

To my clients, I am extremely concrete. But I'm not going to write a free list of 'how the professional thinks the JREF could better promote itself as an educational foundation' in this forum, sorry. In that regard, my opinion has monetary value.

[ImaginalDisc]

Could you be a little more concrete?

It's not right to ask a professional for free advice unless they offer it. Their know-how is their livelihood.

[NobbyNobbs]

And then, of course, there's this forum.

After lurking here for more than a year, before I got up the guts to post, I learned:

--there's more woo in the world than I ever imagined.
--there are people for whom logic will simply never work
--whenever I get frustrated with my father-in-law's crazy ideas, I need only to look here for a bastion of reality
--how to better express myself
--how to debate more logically
--how to look for false arguments in another person's debate

..among other things. How many lurkers do you suppose there are here, just observing, for example, the debating techniques of truthers vs. those of skeptics?

Mind you, the forum doesn't reach out to pull people in, it doesn't advertise...but it certainly is educational. At least, I have found it so.

[volatile]

Mind you, the forum doesn't reach out to pull people in, it doesn't advertise...but it certainly is educational. At least, I have found it so.

Whilst that might be so, this forum is not the JREF, nor does it have any content provided to it by the JREF. The foundation pays to host the site, that much is true, but its content is definitely distinct from, and cannot, IMHO, be said to represent an educational facility provided by, the foundation.

[athon]

I'd like to throw this one back at you, Athon and also criticise myself.

I agree that the JREF should do a lot more but I'm a little unsure as to how.

True; being critical of the JREF's approach to education without a view of how to address it is hardly constructive. On one level, however, I feel that it's less that they aren't actively educational, but rather that they declares themselves as such without taking that part as seriously as I personally feel they should.

Some time ago, you were putting together a critical thinking lesson plan on these forums and it just fizzled out (correct me if I'm wrong).

No, you are correct. It remains a good idea for a collective resource however my own ideas on how to approach critical thinking evolved dramatically from being focussed on a critical thinking course to being about integrating critical thinking across disciplines. In other words, I've learned a lot over the past couple of years about skepticism in education and have found some methods to be more useful than others.

In addition, on request, an area for flyers and other bite-sized documents highlighting common counter-arguments for various woo was made available on the JREF. On a quick look, I can't see it now, and my own contribution has been very weak. Permission from Richard Dawkins to add his flyer being the only thing I got around to doing.

I agree that would make for a good resource. There's a chap on these forums (Byzantine Magpie) who I talked to recently about some information sheets he developed and shared on a radio show. I'm hoping to use him for my radio show, and perhaps look at what he has to offer.

Yet it is indeed things like that which would serve a purpose. Randi's books aren't bad as a general public information source, and the encyclopedia might have some use, but printable resource sheets which can integrate into nearly any educational situation is ideal.

Who is going to do it?...Not the staff of JREF...A finite resource already stretched, I understand.

Forumites? Well it just isn't happening, and I'm as guilty as anyone.

A mix of these is potentially useful. Teek already offers a great deal of marketing expertise to the JREF, for which she (I assume) gets acknowledged for. Much of the reason I abandoned the Educational Resources was that I had little support or cause to produce a comprehensive resource structure for the new integrated methods I had researched and was applying. It's a large difference having an organisation request your expertise than simply supplying some links and ideas on a forum.

Threads disappearing into the dungeons is not an effective way to have educational resources available.

True. The education sub forum has a lot of links to decent resource sites, but they are buried and scattered.

Claus seems busy with other things since April...His site and his skills could be useful..some good articles there but difficult to adapt to educating.

No offence to Claus, and I'm not saying this in an attempt to start a flame war, but I've lost a lot of confidence in Claus over recent years. I don't see his methods or mannerisms in skeptical education offering much benefit. I'll leave that for now so not to derail this thread.

I have my own ideas as to how more education can be achieved (I'm probably wrong) but I suspect that the JREF is not the best vehicle. Getting sceptical people into the media spotlight is what Randi is good at and should continue as he is. It's passive educating but still useful.

.

I agree, and I don't mean for this to sound as if the foundation has no use. By no means is that the case. And I've already admitted the professional bias I approach this with. However effective education, IMO, is far more productive than merely having celebrity skepticism. To paraphrase something Mercutio once said, 'Even Paris Hilton has an audience'. It simply isn't enough to have a voice; we need to actively educate rather than simply inform.

That is done through outreach programs, interactions with existing educational systems, developing effective and meaningful resources (not just information sheets, encyclopedias and books), speaking and listening to those in pedagogy, using scholarship money for programs that further promote skepticism...and so on.

Athon

[athon]

And then, of course, there's this forum.

Which has been argued by some that Randi doesn't take all that seriously. The forum is not the JREF, don't forget.

After lurking here for more than a year, before I got up the guts to post, I learned:

--there's more woo in the world than I ever imagined.
--there are people for whom logic will simply never work
--whenever I get frustrated with my father-in-law's crazy ideas, I need only to look here for a bastion of reality
--how to better express myself
--how to debate more logically
--how to look for false arguments in another person's debate

..among other things. How many lurkers do you suppose there are here, just observing, for example, the debating techniques of truthers vs. those of skeptics?

True, but again, this forum is not the JREF itself. Its views are not necessarily those expressed by the foundation, after all.

Nobody says that the JREF has not educated. That is different, albeit subtly, to the JREF being intentionally educationally focussed. I've learned a lot from drinking and talking to people at the pub over the years; that doesn't make the pub an educational institute.

Athon

[Ducky]

Awarding scholarships (http://www.randi.org/scholarships/) is not an educational resource?

[athon]

Awarding scholarships (http://www.randi.org/scholarships/) is not an educational resource?

The way I see it, the scholarships are currently given without view of them being applied to further skeptical communication. Normally a scholarship is awarded with a goal in mind, intending to further the promotion of said goal using the funding donated. I can't find evidence of that with these scholarships, leading me to wonder if they are an end themselves (rewarding recipients on account of the fact they are skeptical) or a means (providing a source of funding for projects, studies or ideas which serve to themselves promote skeptical education).

Athon

[Ducky]

So we're nitpicking whether they're "true" scholarships, or whether giving scholarships is deserving of "educational" in the name?


ETA:

I am sure an email to Hal would answer your questions.

[athon]

So we're nitpicking whether they're "true" scholarships, or whether giving scholarships is deserving of "educational" in the name?

More whether the scholarships themselves are as effective as they could be in promoting skeptical education.

I am sure an email to Hal would answer your questions.

Good point. I should inform myself better before criticizing.

Athon

[DRBUZZ0]

So apparently your view of "education" is that it is done in the classroom, through teaching and through the educational system, and thus you are an "educator" because you teach classes as a profession.

I'm sorry but I do not see it that way. Granted education does bring that image to mind but I think that is a bit narrow. I don't see it in that context in this foundation or in the skeptical movement, although that is part of it.

Education of the public is in some ways analogous to "providing information."

There are those who are out there claiming that their psychic powers can help find missing children or that an energy crystal will cure cancer. There is a need to inform or "educate" the public in general and really everyone about the facts and the other side of these claims and such. It is in a way refuting them, but ideally it is not simply saying that an individual claim is untrue but rather to provide the background and critical analysis that will allow people to evaluate them for themselves.

So I suppose you could get into the debate over whether or not that is "education" or "information" or "advertising" or "propaganda," which I already think is where I see this going "Oh you have to respect others views" and that BS.

As far as I am concerned, there are enough people calling mainstream medicine and science bull that we ought to have at least a few people out there defending it and giving some reasons why the wooers are bull. And again: ideally verifiable and logical reasons. The optimal outcome is to help in creating more inquisitive attitudes which will cause more people to do their own research and question more.

Granted teaching in a classroom is a respectable and constructive profession, but I would not be so fast to say that a teacher is somehow inherently a better advocate of the JREF's mission than anyone who takes the time to put out information, maintain websites, refute claims within the media, point out errors to newspapers, write editorials, facilitate local groups, lobby the government, point out scams to consumer law enforcement agencies. Or for that matter: Simply encourage those around them to ask questions.

Most information comes through culture and to effect culture you need as many individuals embedded in it all working...


The pub is not an educational institution. But if someone at the pub sparks your interest in a subject and encourages you to read up on it, they are most certainly furthering education.

[athon]

*sigh* There goes the thread. How long until meltdown on this one, Buzzy?

So apparently your view of "education" is that it is done in the classroom, through teaching and through the educational system, and thus you are an "educator" because you teach classes as a profession.

Don't you get hayfever from all the strawmen you make? Show me where I said education is done soley in the classroom, or that I am an educator because I teach classes as a profession.

The fact the rest of your post extends from this nonsense statement makes it irrelevant.

Athon

[DRBUZZ0]

To my clients, I am extremely concrete. But I'm not going to write a free list of 'how the professional thinks the JREF could better promote itself as an educational foundation' in this forum, sorry. In that regard, my opinion has monetary value.

I am sure Teek has all sorts of great ideas beyond what I would have because her experience in marketing and business is much greater than mine. However, I think that the JREF could do a great deal more simply because they seem to do little consistent and effective marketing.

My biggest suggestion would be to try to tap the talents and time of members. It is the greatest resource which I think the foundation has. Believe me, they don't nearly as much as they could. I've at times been begging "WHAT CAN I DO TO HELP" Can I help with a podcast? With the website? Do you want me to write to the press?

Basically I get the message "You have to do it on your own" which is pretty much both an issue of "spreading the troops too thin." because I am not sure we need yet ANOTHER skeptical group or website. And also there's not any coordination. God, I've said this for so long it's hurting....

And I know I am not alone in this frustration. Not everyone has the time or resources to make a big difference alone, but working together it's easy.


There's one thing that is important to keep in mind with any kind of marketing and promotion though: The best kind is the free kind, because it always is gaurenteed a great cost benefit ratio. At worst the CBA is neutral. Now you can't shake a damn stick at that.... I guess the worst case senerio is that rather then realize the answer is infinity, you go into a divide-by-zero look

[DRBUZZ0]

The fact the rest of your post extends from this nonsense statement makes it irrelevant.

Athon

Actually no it does not. You could just say "Oh sure I think that's a strawman so I won't even continue" that itself is a strawman.

But reguardless. Fine put your hand over that part if it's so damn offensive. This thread has basically been focusing on the concept that education is an "institutional" thing and certainly and without doubt schools and universities are the primary means of education and organized, formal education is critically important.

But I'm simply saying that the definition is too narrow. There is too much misinformation and it is entirely relevant to go out and try to get publicity or put out information or whatever directly or through the media and not infront of a blackboard or in the halls of academia.

And importantly, this is can help effect directly both culture and public policy.

[RemieV]

I hope I am not overstepping my bounds.

The JREF daily receives phone calls and e-mails from individuals who have had 'paranormal' experiences, and want to better understand what happened. JREF staff stands by to answer all these queries.

No, you may not necessarily receive a response if you e-mail Randi directly, mostly because it wouldn't be possible for one person to answer every question. If you send your e-mail to one of the other addresses for JREF staff, you will get a response of some kind. If you have a direct query for information, you will get a response addressing that. If you call the JREF, and someone is available, your question will be answered right then and in full.

It's true that the JREF doesn't have, say, a skeptic's summer camp. How would that be any different from TAM? If, as you say, listening to lectures and attending TAM is not an educational experience, why would a skeptic's summer camp be any more so?

Anyone who says they didn't learn something at TAM boggles me. Did you attend all the lectures? I learned tons of things I never knew before.

Yes, it's true that TAM is also a community-based function, and that a lot of focus goes on the parties, the pub crawls, and the shows. However, the parties were not the JREF's. They were organized by individuals who wanted their experience of TAM to be like that. I'm not saying I see anything wrong with such a thing - I don't. But to say that the JREF's emphasis at TAM is not on education is silly. There were workshops, for goshsakes.

I attended the media workshop and learned all sorts of things. We were even invited up to have an impromptu interview. I was lucky enough to participate in that part of the workshop. Because of my participation, I was prepared when I did Dragon*Con this past weekend and sat on a panel. I had already been shown how to deal with a hostile audience, and that came in awfully handy.

The JREF spends tons of money on TAM, TAA, and employing the individuals who make the Challenge possible, who are there to answer questions, who can go give presentations to the public. This includes Randi, but does not exclude everyone else.

Even with only these small moves toward education, the JREF is still a financially poor organization. If you think that the JREF should be doing greater things, well, those greater things cost a greater amount of money.

I would suggest writing to Linda or Jeff and proposing whatever it is you want to see done. Within your conversation, say that you will donate X amount, and that's where you want the donation to go. If it's a feasible idea, I'm sure that Jeff and Linda would be open to it, especially if there were enough donations like yours to make it possible.

It's very easy, and even understandable, to sit on the sidelines and say you don't see the organization going anywhere. Most of what the JREF does on a daily basis is not google-able. That doesn't mean it's not happening.

So, my shortened list - the JREF library, the Challenge files, the lectures, the interviews, TAM, TAA, Swift, and the availability of JREF Staff to answer questions.

And also, if you have a question about the Challenge, the JREF, the paranormal, or anything else you feel needs to be addressed, please e-mail me at Alison@randi.org. If I cannot answer your question, I will forward it to someone who can. It may take a little while as I am generally overrun, but you will get a response.

~RemieV

[DRBUZZ0]

I hope I am not overstepping my bounds.

The JREF daily receives phone calls and e-mails from individuals who have had 'paranormal' experiences, and want to better understand what happened. JREF staff stands by to answer all these queries.



I was totally unaware of this. How many people do they have doing this and do they need more? I mean, I'm always trying to help and Im sure others would too.


No, you may not necessarily receive a response if you e-mail Randi directly, mostly because it wouldn't be possible for one person to answer every question.


Based only on my own personal experience: Randi is surprisingly responsive to e-mails which do have something relevant or constructive to say. Note: This doesn't mean start emailing him with everything you ever thought of saying to him. But he does care enough to read them and respond if warented



If you send your e-mail to one of the other addresses for JREF staff, you will get a response of some kind. If you have a direct query for information, you will get a response addressing that. If you call the JREF, and someone is available, your question will be answered right then and in full.


Also true, but I think there should be a mention that people probably ought to post a thread or google something before calling the JREF on the phone. They are often busy


It's true that the JREF doesn't have, say, a skeptic's summer camp. How would that be any different from TAM? If, as you say, listening to lectures and attending TAM is not an educational experience, why would a skeptic's summer camp be any more so?


I learned a great deal at TAM, but I'm not sure that TAM really educates those who need it most. Those at TAM were pretty much skeptics to begin with, but I guess sometimes the chior needs preaching too..



Yes, it's true that TAM is also a community-based function, and that a lot of focus goes on the parties, the pub crawls, and the shows. However, the parties were not the JREF's. They were organized by individuals who wanted their experience of TAM to be like that. I'm not saying I see anything wrong with such a thing - I don't. But to say that the JREF's emphasis at TAM is not on education is silly. There were workshops, for goshsakes.


Yes, but those are very useful in some ways too. Making something fun makes it more accessible. Fostering a sense of community can help people work together. Most importantly: I know a lot of people who left tam with a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for the cause.



Even with only these small moves toward education, the JREF is still a financially poor organization. If you think that the JREF should be doing greater things, well, those greater things cost a greater amount of money.


Or... you could go out and freakin do them yourself. The amount of people multiplied by the amount of free time they have and in the context of the skills they bring to the table is worth more money than the foundation could ever hope to find.

Am I the only one who really thinks there needs to be better coordination within the foundation of how to help members setup coordinate and contribute to skepticism?


It's very easy, and even understandable, to sit on the sidelines and say you don't see the organization going anywhere. Most of what the JREF does on a daily basis is not google-able. That doesn't mean it's not happening.

oh god yes. it's really damn hard to get stuff to happen, especially when it involves you and others doing something. One would think that a skeptical group like this would be all over you as soon as you say you are looking for that sort of thing or that the JREF would have some sort of function in getting stuff done with the people it has...


[/quote]
And also, if you have a question about the Challenge, the JREF, the paranormal, or anything else you feel needs to be addressed, please e-mail me at Alison@randi.org. If I cannot answer your question, I will forward it to someone who can. It may take a little while as I am generally overrun, but you will get a response.

~RemieV[/QUOTE]


You don't always answer mine to begin with :-(

[athon]

Actually no it does not. You could just say "Oh sure I think that's a strawman so I won't even continue" that itself is a strawman.

Your suggestion that by 'education' I've meant purely institutionalised, class bound systems is incorrect; education goes far beyond such restrictive definitions. You're attacking a view that I haven't purported - hence, a straw man.

This thread has basically been focusing on the concept that education is an "institutional" thing...

Incorrect. Institutions can and should be involved and worked with, but education suffers from no such limitation.

But I'm simply saying that the definition is too narrow.

Take that, scarecrow! And that!!

Ideally, in order for education of any sort to be most efficient, in my opinion it should:

Be bi-directional, where the learner is directly interacting with the facilitator.
Offer a variety of resources that encourages the development of skills over being purely informative.
Address various pedagogical needs of the targeted community.
Be active in its adaptation to changing attitudes, developing skills and informing the population, rather that passively offering a narrow range of texts.
Integrate with other programs, disciplines and systems available in order to remove the compartmentalisation of the skills being conveyed.

These are just some of the things which makes education effective. Note I never said the JREF is not educational at all. But whether it is as effective as it could be is open for discussion.

Athon

[athon]

I hope I am not overstepping my bounds.

This is your personal opinion - I wouldn't think so.

No, you may not necessarily receive a response if you e-mail Randi directly, mostly because it wouldn't be possible for one person to answer every question. If you send your e-mail to one of the other addresses for JREF staff, you will get a response of some kind. If you have a direct query for information, you will get a response addressing that. If you call the JREF, and someone is available, your question will be answered right then and in full.

I wouldn't dispute that. The JREF is useful by many accounts as an information source, and as a communicator. I've studied both education and science communication in my time (have degrees in both) and can tell you know while they often overlap, there are differences in how communication can effectively be done and how education can effectively be done.

If it was the James Randi Skeptical Communication Foundation, I'd feel it was doing a better job of communicating skeptical awareness to the public. This seems to be closer in line with its goals, too. However I believe that more of an educational focus would serve skepticism better in the long run.

It's true that the JREF doesn't have, say, a skeptic's summer camp. How would that be any different from TAM? If, as you say, listening to lectures and attending TAM is not an educational experience, why would a skeptic's summer camp be any more so?

I never suggested summer camps, mostly because they're not common in my neck of the woods. If the summer camp had activities and workshops which endeavoured to be educational, however, I might see the merit in them.

Anyone who says they didn't learn something at TAM boggles me. Did you attend all the lectures? I learned tons of things I never knew before.

I found them to be informative on current progress of skepticism, but not so much as educated. I know a lot of people see little difference in the terms. The fact I do is (as I've said a few times) a result of my background, where effective education is far more than information based.

There were workshops, for goshsakes.

Very true, and the one part of TAM which has huge potential to be educational. I never attended the media workshop, so can't comment on it, and found the one on critical thinking in education somewhat lacking. As it was, I petitioned for quite some time to include it (a number of emails exchanged with Hal expressing my desire for such a workshop). In fact having had a few conversations with Hal on the topic, I get the sense that he agrees that there is a great amount of room to move towards being more educational.

Even with only these small moves toward education, the JREF is still a financially poor organization. If you think that the JREF should be doing greater things, well, those greater things cost a greater amount of money.

Or use the money more efficiently. It has a massive resource of expertise here at its fingertips, in marketing, business management, education etc. I can't speak for everybody, but as a coordinator for technology and educational principles in my own school, I'd happily give advice free of charge.

I would suggest writing to Linda or Jeff and proposing whatever it is you want to see done. Within your conversation, say that you will donate X amount, and that's where you want the donation to go. If it's a feasible idea, I'm sure that Jeff and Linda would be open to it, especially if there were enough donations like yours to make it possible.

Somehow I don't see it being quite so easy. Don't get me wrong; I'm not being harshly critical of the JREF's work. I began this topic to get a more well rounded view. I've had a few conversations (including at TAM) with a number of JREF staff, and feel that there is something of a desire for more to be done, but a lack of direction and resourcing on the matter.

As it's been said, Randi is fantastic when it comes to communications through the media. However to make the foundation educational, it takes something a little more.

So, my shortened list - the JREF library, the Challenge files, the lectures, the interviews, TAM, TAA, Swift, and the availability of JREF Staff to answer questions.

Fair list. The challenge files would indeed make a good resource, if easily accessable. The library is accessable only in person (not taking it from your list; just describing their limitation).

Again, my query is not based on the JREF not being educational, but rather the potential efficiency of the education it promotes.

And also, if you have a question about the Challenge, the JREF, the paranormal, or anything else you feel needs to be addressed, please e-mail me at Alison@randi.org. If I cannot answer your question, I will forward it to someone who can. It may take a little while as I am generally overrun, but you will get a response.

~RemieV

Thanks Remie.

Athon

[robinson]

In regards to the JREF forum not being part of the JREF, the JREF homepage http://www.randi.org/ has a link under the MDC section for
• Log of Applicants which goes to
http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43

So the JREF forum certainly appears to be part of the JREF.

[tkingdoll]

In regards to the JREF forum not being part of the JREF, the JREF homepage http://www.randi.org/ has a link under the MDC section for
• Log of Applicants which goes to
http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43

So the JREF forum certainly appears to be part of the JREF.

Well, it's part of the same universe, but apart from the Challenge apps, the JREF doesn't generate any of the content (bar the odd official post here and there).

[homer]

Well the JREF has certainly educated me in skeptical thinking and introduced me to ideas from people like Richard Dawkins . I now understand something of the science of Evolution from reading his books . I know that's a bit indirect but it worked for me .
I also remember watching Uri G***** on TV and wondering what was going on and then later finding how it could be just a trick . I call that educational .

[tkingdoll]

Well the JREF has certainly educated me in skeptical thinking and introduced me to ideas from people like Richard Dawkins . I now understand something of the science of Evolution from reading his books . I know that's a bit indirect but it worked for me .
I also remember watching Uri G***** on TV and wondering what was going on and then later finding how it could be just a trick . I call that educational .

Can I ask which part of the JREF did those things? The main website, this forum, Randi's weekly Swift column, an event (e.g. TAM), a podcast, a combination of these?

[athon]

Well the JREF has certainly educated me in skeptical thinking and introduced me to ideas from people like Richard Dawkins . I now understand something of the science of Evolution from reading his books . I know that's a bit indirect but it worked for me .
I also remember watching Uri G***** on TV and wondering what was going on and then later finding how it could be just a trick . I call that educational .

How do you differentiate something educational from being informative? I can say I've 'learned' something from many sources, everything from women's magazines to billboards to idle gossip in the staffroom. However, I wouldn't call these 'educational' resources, in spite of my coming away with a changed perspective on something or with new information.

You also say you've learned a lot from books such as those written by Dawkins, which you were referred to by here. Again, is that being educated by the JREF, or was it simply encouraging you to actively go out and learn something new? Indeed, being shown how Uri does some of his tricks is a useful resource in demonstrating how psychics fool people, but once again I don't see this as educational, per se.

Athon

[UnrepentantSinner]

According to some on this forum it refers to telling religious people how stupid and/or mentally ill they are. Or at least that's the "educational" purpose of the forum.

[Solus]

I think there is an E in JREF is because of Randi's efforts in the past and present to educate people about frauds. Although I see the OP's main point and have wondered that myself. More could be done but that requires a new organization to be created. I suppose small steps could be made however.

[sthomson]

I always thought "Educational" meant "Randi gives lectures and speeches, holds conferences, etc." The "James Randi Educational Foundation" is just a name that means that the profits from these endeavors is payed to an organization, instead of to Randi himself, so that Randi can benefit from certain tax and liability shelters. It also makes hiring employees a bit easier.

[Darth Rotor]

You also say you've learned a lot from books such as those written by Dawkins, which you were referred to by here.
Again, is that being educated by the JREF, or was it simply encouraging you to actively go out and learn something new? Indeed, being shown how Uri does some of his tricks is a useful resource in demonstrating how psychics fool people, but once again I don't see this as educational, per se.

Athon
I think I get the gist of your intentions, and I think you are on to something, but, for my own clarity of understanding, how do you define education and educational?

As I was taught, the purpose of education in the broadest sense, as opposed to training, is to prepare the mind for independent learning in a given discipline, or more generally in all disciplines. Basically, once out of undergrad, one is at least partially a self learner, and self educator, for the rest of their lives, though I am very glad I went through the cauldron of a masters degree or two for the sharpening of the already forged blade.

Continuing education programs, if they are using the term correctly, provide people with some training, but also with educational base to become self learners/self growing professionals in whichever field.

What do you mean by education, if what you don't mean is what you have noted so far?

DR

[athon]

What do you mean by education, if what you don't mean is what you have noted so far?

DR

In post 34 I said;

Ideally, in order for education of any sort to be most efficient, in my opinion it should:

Be bi-directional, where the learner is directly interacting with the facilitator.
Offer a variety of resources that encourages the development of skills over being purely informative.
Address various pedagogical needs of the targeted community.
Be active in its adaptation to changing attitudes, developing skills and informing the population, rather that passively offering a narrow range of texts.
Integrate with other programs, disciplines and systems available in order to remove the compartmentalisation of the skills being conveyed.

These are just some of the things which makes education effective. Note I never said the JREF is not educational at all. But whether it is as effective as it could be is open for discussion.

It's by no means comprehensive or complete, but gives something of an idea of what I mean by 'effectively educational' against something being merely informative. I also acknowledge that educational has a colloquial meaning, where it insinuates anything that merely teaches you something new. However, such a colloquial definition is far too broad for a foundation which defines itself as 'educational'.

Athon

[Erin]

athon,

I agree with your sentiments. Someone should ask these kind of questions more often if just to let the powers that be know someone is taking note. Personally, I'm more interested in the information contained on the board. For me at this point that's educational enough. I may get into this more though once I have completely familiarised myself with the board, it's members and it's claims.

[Darth Rotor]

In post 34 I said;



It's by no means comprehensive or complete, but gives something of an idea of what I mean by 'effectively educational' against something being merely informative. I also acknowledge that educational has a colloquial meaning, where it insinuates anything that merely teaches you something new. However, such a colloquial definition is far too broad for a foundation which defines itself as 'educational'.

Athon

OK, I get that, thanks again.

It seems to me that your purpose is both noble and of interest to an educational foundation. If this foundation's aim is to support, or act as a catalyst for education, it has succeeded. One of its aims is to promote critical thinking, and I think it does that. Critical thinking is one of the tools of modern education.

Now that I understand better, from the discussion, that your vision involves "what more can the JREF do for education" I will return to lurk mode and soak in the inputs of those who make concrete suggestions for expanding the reach of the foundation, and its mission.

DR

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Haha, it's the curse of not being about to edit titles. As soon as it went up I cursed out loud.
We aim both to educate and to serve.

~~ Paul