moral degredation

[figarot]

I am a man who lives alone, devoid of much human contact that is not deemed necessary. The JREF forum is the only forum I subsribe to on the net only because this is the only place I've found on the net that promotes rational thought in a way I like.
Not being a frequent poster I still feel I might get some good responses to a question that has been bothering me. Does anybody feel that the moral standard of humans has deteriorated something terrible?
I ask this because I have heard of 11-year-old girls trying to get into bed with my 17-year-old grandson and I do not ever remember any girl that young ever trying to get "screwed" when I was my grandson's age. Also it seems that everybody is doing drugs at a much younger age than say was common ten years ago. This bothers me no end. I am not trying to be self-rightious or anything of the ilk, it's just that this trend where kids are striving to grow old as soon as they can is worrying me. I feel that much is lost on the young ones these days, growing older/wiser/ more experienced, etcettera has not advanced their collective intelligence any or made them more able to deal with adult issues. Having made a balls up of bringing up my children I might be accussed of trying to compensate with my grandchildren, but it was different when my son and daughters were growing up, they were never exposed to as much media or stimuli as the kids of today are. There is a big part of me that would love to see neighbourhoods and communities return to what I, and my kind, are used to. This can be chalked up to sheer nostalgia, but I am taking it to a more personal level. I see young girls and boys of today alliw themselves every indulgence without regard for consequences. Perhaps I just crave the discipline I was brought up with, or maybe my heart would be stilled by hearing from a youngster who proposes some of the same ideals I had about mankind when I was that age. But perhaps I'm just too old for this age.
Anyone catch my drift?

[Phil]

I tend to agree with you on some points. For example, the race to experience has not resulted in faster maturation nor has it offered any discernable growth in intelligence. At least not in the teens I come in contact with. But there are a lot of teachers on this board who might tell you that things aren't as different as you think.

In every generation the trouble makers just seem to stand out more. I mean, we glorified the rebels of the James Dean era, the hippies of the 60's and 70's, the self-indulgent hipsters of the 80's and the gloomy goth and grunge (how's that for alliteration) zombies of the 90's and 00's. But throughout all those eras, there were good kids, too, whose morals may have been progressive in relation to generations before, but that were well within any envelope that may be pushed.

It is shocking to hear of 11 year old girls having sex, but there was a 13 year old mother at my junior high school. And that was in the 1970's.

But I suppose I should step aside and let those member who deal with children on a regular basis post replies. They can no doubt speak to your questions better than I.

[Upchurch]

I tend to wonder if there is an actual degredation of morals or if the morality level of the general populous has stayed more or less constant and our awareness of the problems has just become greater.

Maybe a little of both.

[figarot]

Originally posted by Phil

(snip)
In every generation the trouble makers just seem to stand out more. I mean, we glorified the rebels of the James Dean era, the hippies of the 60's and 70's, the self-indulgent hipsters of the 80's and the gloomy goth and grunge (how's that for alliteration) zombies of the 90's and 00's. But throughout all those eras, there were good kids, too, whose morals may have been progressive in relation to generations before, but that were well within any envelope that may be pushed...
(snip)

I agree with you there but the rebels of yesteryear were oppossed to the authority figures of the day not doing their jobs properly or wars and the like, as far as I can see todays children rebel against not being allowed to f*ck when they want to. Or being told that too much partying and drugs will undermine their future potential. In many ways this is exactly what we wanted when we were immature and irresponsible ourselves it's just that everything's so brazen and celebrated nowadays without any thought given to repercussions even if they are only the fact that you have hurt someone feelings or crashed your mother's car into the garage door. Then again, I've probably forgotten what it's like to be young, it's just that the young seem to be devoid of a conscience these days and have no interest in anybody who displays a modicum of morals, such a soul (one possessing morals) is the equivalent of what was termed a geek in my day.

[figarot]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I tend to wonder if there is an actual degredation of morals or if the morality level of the general populous has stayed more or less constant and our awareness of the problems has just become greater.

Maybe a little of both.
I feel we are more aware of the degradation today than we were before only because of the extended media coverage, but shouldn't we be more concerned about it in the same respect? (Not that we can necessarily do anything more about it.)

[repairman]

I think that the morals of most people young and old are about the same as ever. I do think that you now hear about the bad ones more now than ever. I think that the media is to blame. Not for making society more imoral but pushing the imoral behavior that is always present in all societies into our faces. :eek:

[arcticpenguin]

There's a famous quote about how morals are decaying and the younger generation is a bunch of losers with no respect. It was written by a Roman about 2000 years ago, Maybe some one can come up with a name or a link?

[toddjh]

Originally posted by figarot
I am a man who lives alone, devoid of much human contact that is not deemed necessary. The JREF forum is the only forum I subsribe to on the net only because this is the only place I've found on the net that promotes rational thought in a way I like.
Not being a frequent poster I still feel I might get some good responses to a question that has been bothering me. Does anybody feel that the moral standard of humans has deteriorated something terrible?

No, not especially. People just talk about it more, and more things are out in the open. I think things are actually going quite well in Western society. If it seems otherwise, it's just the media sensationalizing things -- which can be good as much as it is bad: it shows that freedom of expression and freedom of the press are alive and well.

I ask this because I have heard of 11-year-old girls trying to get into bed with my 17-year-old grandson and I do not ever remember any girl that young ever trying to get "screwed" when I was my grandson's age. Also it seems that everybody is doing drugs at a much younger age than say was common ten years ago. This bothers me no end. I am not trying to be self-rightious or anything of the ilk, it's just that this trend where kids are striving to grow old as soon as they can is worrying me. I feel that much is lost on the young ones these days, growing older/wiser/ more experienced, etcettera has not advanced their collective intelligence any or made them more able to deal with adult issues. Having made a balls up of bringing up my children I might be accussed of trying to compensate with my grandchildren, but it was different when my son and daughters were growing up, they were never exposed to as much media or stimuli as the kids of today are. There is a big part of me that would love to see neighbourhoods and communities return to what I, and my kind, are used to. This can be chalked up to sheer nostalgia, but I am taking it to a more personal level. I see young girls and boys of today alliw themselves every indulgence without regard for consequences.

I disagree. Between sex and drug education from a very early age, fear of HIV, and a generally more open environment, I think today's kids are probably the most aware of potential consequences of their actions.

And the numbers back that up. Teenage pregnancy rates are the lowest since detailed records started being kept around 30 years ago, and have been falling steadily since around 1985. Ditto with violent crime. However much it might seem like dressing like Britney and being openly sexually active at an earlier age would cause a lot of harm, it just doesn't seem to be happening. I don't think there's anything to worry about until an objective measure of the situation says there is.

Jeremy

[figarot]

Originally posted by toddjh
(snip)
Between sex and drug education from a very early age, fear of HIV, and a generally more open environment, I think today's kids are probably the most aware of potential consequences of their actions.

And the numbers back that up. Teenage pregnancy rates are the lowest since detailed records started being kept around 30 years ago, and have been falling steadily since around 1985. Ditto with violent crime. However much it might seem like dressing like Britney and being openly sexually active at an earlier age would cause a lot of harm, it just doesn't seem to be happening. I don't think there's anything to worry about until an objective measure of the situation says there is.

Jeremy
I agree that children are more aware of the dangers it's just that I've been given the impression by teens I know that they couldn't give a damn, more so than what was prevalent (not in the media but what we saw on the streets) in my day. I could be overreacting but I refuse to admit totally to that until such time that I hear from a teen who expresses concern over the shananigans of his peers, which has yet to happen.

[American]

There haven't been any difficult trials for this country in a long time, the closest being 9/11, for which many people went running to therapists and started popping pills.

We need a Great Depression or a WW2 if we're ever going to be that strong again, as you describe. We need to know that things MAY NOT be ok and work out just fine.

Do you really want that? Maybe a soft nation of cowards and immoral punks isn't so bad. THAT'S the peace dividend. It's exactly what older generations sacrificed for, and the boomers spent and wasted.

Generation X took it to new heights with their self-pity, bed-wetting, ADD, prozac-popping alternative music playing, I'm-gay-just-to-be-cool, america-bashing babies that they are.

Things have gotten better in some ways. The 70's were a low point. Just look at New York City back then, the direct result of Johnson's social projects. All that scum is either dead or went to jail... thank God we took care of them.

You survive difficult situations in life and grow as a person, mainly when you have NO F-CKING CHOICE. You live and carry on because there is NO alternative. The second you let government intervene, people are addicted to and trapped within a system that rewards weakness and punishes self-discipline and good values.

So yeah, there are rampant degenerates in this country. Maybe that's a good sign that we're not a day away from total destruction like 50 years ago.

[Skeptic]

Well...

QUESTION: Who wrote this (quoting from Memory):

"The young today are not like in the old days. They do not worthip God; they care for nothing but pleasure; they have no honor or sense of duty. They have degernated, and the world is going to the dogs."

ANSWER: A sumerian priest, ca. 3000 BC, only, of course, with "gods" instead of "god".

[figarot]

Originally posted by American

(snip)
Things have gotten better in some ways. The 70's were a low point. Just look at New York City back then, the direct result of Johnson's social projects. All that scum is either dead or went to jail... thank God we took care of them.

You survive difficult situations in life and grow as a person, mainly when you have NO F-CKING CHOICE. You live and carry on because there is NO alternative. The second you let government intervene, people are addicted to and trapped within a system that rewards weakness and punishes self-discipline and good values.

So yeah, there are rampant degenerates in this country. Maybe that's a good sign that we're not a day away from total destruction like 50 years ago.
that last line made me smile, thanks. I suppose we've always been disappointments to any previous generations, but is that a reason to continue in our ways? (Not that I feel it can be helped.) Perhaps I'm just waiting to be surprised by an act of human kindness done by the young (of which there may be many such instances it's just that I might be pig-ignorant to them.) I wouldn't mind seeing it become a trend among the "good" kids of today's world (that's a pipe dream if I ever had one.)

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Well...

QUESTION: Who wrote this (quoting from Memory):

"The young today are not like in the old days. They do not worthip God; they care for nothing but pleasure; they have no honor or sense of duty. They have degernated, and the world is going to the dogs."

ANSWER: A sumerian priest, ca. 3000 BC, only, of course, with "gods" instead of "god".
Yes, and here are a few others (http://www.leopard.nu/ellen/quote/whippedcream.html).

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words...When I was young, we were taught to be discret and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint."
----- Hesiod, 800 B.C.

"The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in places of exercise. Children are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties [food] at the table, cross their legs and tyrannise their teachers."
----- Socrates, 399 B.C.

"Our young men have grown slothful. There is not a single honourable occupation for which they will toil night and day. They sing and dance and grow effeminate and curl their hair and learn womanish tricks of speech; They are as languid as women and deck themselves out with unbecoming ornaments. With out strength, without energy, they add nothing during life to the gifts with which they were born - then they complain of their lot."
----- Seneca, C.1. A.D.

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence [respect] for their parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint; They talk as if they alone know everything and what passes for wisdom in us foolishness in them. As for the girls, they are foolish and immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress."
----- Peter the Hermit, 1083

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by American
Generation X took it to new heights with their self-pity, bed-wetting, ADD, prozac-popping alternative music playing, I'm-gay-just-to-be-cool, america-bashing babies that they are.


That fact that you include ADD in this whole strawman just shows how silly it is.

It's not the Gen Xers who started giving Ridelin to their kids.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by figarot

I agree that children are more aware of the dangers it's just that I've been given the impression by teens I know that they couldn't give a damn, more so than what was prevalent (not in the media but what we saw on the streets) in my day. I could be overreacting but I refuse to admit totally to that until such time that I hear from a teen who expresses concern over the shananigans of his peers, which has yet to happen.

Then what is your explanation for the fact that indicators of teen responsibility (pregnancy and abortion rates, etc.) have been improving pretty steadily for 15 years? That seems pretty encouraging to me -- and why should teens express concern about it when things aren't that bad?

I think maybe what you're seeing is a shift in cultural mores, not morals. Kids today are talking openly about things that stayed behind closed doors 40 or even 10 years ago, and their attitude toward authority figures has changed dramatically. Is that a bad thing? I don't know.

Hell, I can't say I would've minded if the girls had dressed like Britney back when I was in high school. :)

Jeremy

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by repairman
I think that the morals of most people young and old are about the same as ever. I do think that you now hear about the bad ones more now than ever. I think that the media is to blame. Not for making society more imoral but pushing the imoral behavior that is always present in all societies into our faces. :eek:

If that's true (about the media), then "blame" is not really an appropriate word - unless you think it's better that we go back to ignoring the many social problems the media exposes.

[figarot]

Originally posted by toddjh


Then what is your explanation for the fact that indicators of teen responsibility (pregnancy and abortion rates, etc.) have been improving pretty steadily for 15 years? That seems pretty encouraging to me -- and why should teens express concern about it when things aren't that bad?

I think maybe what you're seeing is a shift in cultural mores, not morals. Kids today are talking openly about things that stayed behind closed doors 40 or even 10 years ago, and their attitude toward authority figures has changed dramatically. Is that a bad thing? I don't know.

Hell, I can't say I would've minded if the girls had dressed like Britney back when I was in high school. :)

Jeremy
I like your argument, but I feel that those indicators of teen responsibility that you mention have more to do with teens knowing what adults want to hear and expressing themselves in that manner so as to pull the proverbial wool over our eyes, and as adults we want to believe that they are behaving responsibly. Do not think that I am saying the youth is bad or satanic or anything of that ilk. However today's society is more accepting of immoral behaviour than any previous that I know of, and it's not just that we're more exposed to the evils of our loins or greed than before but rather a facet of life that has become essential for our survival in a materialistic hedionistic culture, and the kids have picked up on these truths and made "good" use of them.
On the last point, I did have girls like Britney Spears in my class when I was in school, but none of the boys in the school could ever get one of those girls in bed, whereas my grandson has been bousting to me how he's already slept with 30 girls in his school which is more than the number of women I've ever been with.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by figarot
Do not think that I am saying the youth is bad or satanic or anything of that ilk. However today's society is more accepting of immoral behaviour than any previous that I know of

But what is immoral behavior? Are sex, or even drug use, inherently immoral, or are they only wrong when they lead to negative consequences? Sex is never without risk of course, but with precautions the risk is manageable. Personally, I'd be more worried about them driving -- a 16-year-old on the road, now that's dangerous.

On the last point, I did have girls like Britney Spears in my class when I was in school, but none of the boys in the school could ever get one of those girls in bed

But they tried, didn't they? Aren't you supporting a double standard there?

whereas my grandson has been bousting to me how he's already slept with 30 girls in his school which is more than the number of women I've ever been with.

Well, I wouldn't believe everything a teenage boy tells you, especially about sex.

Jeremy

[figarot]

toddjh:
immoral to me is when you are dishonest about your intentions to a fellow human being or deliberately hurting someone for your own good (I know this has always happened but I'm not saying it's new only more accepted. (drug use only falls into this if your stealing to support the habit or neglecting responsibilities that will later affect others.)
Some tried to get girls into bed, yes, that's natural with teenage hormones but nowadays they don't even have to try.
Because my grandson gives out my number to his conquests I've had to listen to over 30 girls cry over him. He's not making his sex life up like I did at his age.

[Underemployed]

'Twas ever thus. Do not attempt to control others or be responsible for them, it only gives them more power over you. Take a deep breath and be happy that you live up to your own standards.

[Mr Manifesto]

According to this (http://www.freedomsring.org/lastdays.html) article, the statement:

"We are living in a decadent and dying age. Youth is corrupt, lacking in respect for elders, impatient of restraint. Age-old truth is doubted and the teaching of the fathers is questioned. The signs of the time forecast the destruction of the world at an early date."

Was written on an Egyptian tomb 1000 BC roughly.

I seem to remember Aristotle making a similar comment. I have tried to locate this, but not luck so far. In any case, he may have been refering to a need for eugenics (http://www.euvolution.com/articles/ancient.htm) (bloody interesting article, BTW).

[Tmy]

History is viewed thru rose colored glasses. Things are pretty damn good right now though the press will lead you to believe the world is aboutto fall apart and our kids are souless, idiot, monsters

HELLO!!! Anyone remember how dangerous the 70's were? Or te lovely 60s with race riots on every corner. Or how "our greatest generation" are really a bunch of lillterates that cant program a VCR. Compare them to todays kids who master their computers by age 9.

Times are pretty good. Even in these economic downturn..

[American]

Another way to look at it-- I like to pretend I have ambition, motivation, drive, etc., and espouse the best values I can. For personal reasons, that's the best life I can hope for. My dream, however, is to have a dozen bratty rich kids who run wild and never have to live a day of what I go through. Hard work and being good is BS, it's nothing but grief in many ways. I receive no reward for it except a little money and pride, which I haven't been able to buy happiness with. If my kids never appreciate the crap that I go through to provide for them, then I'll be happy to know that they're happy.


I don't mean all that exactly the way I wrote it, but that's the general idea....

[American]

I guess a grandiose analogy would be the dude who got his legs run over by a tank at Normandy was probably hoping that his grandson could waste his life smoking pot and screwing women, and never have to know what one's God-given mission in life is all about- pure hell.

[Skeptic]

Another way to look at it-- I like to pretend I have ambition, motivation, drive, etc.,

"Pretend" being the operative word.

[American]

Originally posted by Skeptic
"Pretend" being the operative word.

:D

Do you think I'm really a "Rich Guy" as well?

[Questioninggeller]

Originally posted by Upchurch
I tend to wonder if there is an actual degredation of morals or if the morality level of the general populous has stayed more or less constant and our awareness of the problems has just become greater.

Maybe a little of both.

I agree on both points. I feel humans have and always be selfish beings that act on impulse instead of rational thought. I do believe older people tend to look at things in hindsight without giving the past a good look through. For example,people were angry with Clinton about "sex" when JFK, Harding, Cleveland, ect. all had their affairs. As for responding to the "11 year old" trying to get with his grandson, I think that is an isolated event rather than the rule. Just because it maybe happening to a few people does not mean that morality in all people has changed. 2000 years ago a King leading a nation said, we are being attacked we must defend our polis by attacking the threat and it happens still.

In closing, I feel the great moral flaws have remained constant the only thing that changes is the way our mind examines the cases.

[Blarg]

This is an interesting essay on the topic:

http://www.john-ross.net/mtv.htm

[bignickel]

Originally posted by American
I guess a grandiose analogy would be the dude who got his legs run over by a tank at Normandy was probably hoping that his grandson could waste his life smoking pot and screwing women, and never have to know what one's God-given mission in life is all about- pure hell.

What a load of crap.

Americans, REAL Americans, not people who just call themselves one, fought overseas and risked death for freedom: theirs and their loved ones and their childrens and their children's children.

The freedom to build a church or tear a building down. To build a fence or plant a flower. To yell in a march or yell at a march.

To work a job 40 hours a week and then enjoy your favorite depressent or narcotic in your off-time.

They fought for the freedoms of people to do whatever the he11 they wanted to.

To fight for only the freedoms that only you will permit? That's not fighting for freedom.

That's fighting for fascism.

[American]

Originally posted by bignickel
To fight for only the freedoms that only you will permit? That's not fighting for freedom.

That's fighting for fascism.


What the f-ck are you talking about @sswipe? Nobody said anything to the contrary. Stop picking arguments where none exist.

[bignickel]

You did, dumba$$, with your lame commments about someone fighting for his grandson to 'smoke pot' and 'screw women'.

If anyone on this board has the right to be judgemental about other's people's behaviour, it certainly the he11 isn't you.

Let me know if you're living up to your 'god-given' mission won't you? If it involves being completely lame most of the time, you're well on your way.

"Dude who got his legs run over by a tank at Normandy" Yeah, lots of panzers running up and down the beaches of Normandy, they ran so well in that French sand -> is there really a story of this happening to anyone?

Why not just stick to "What would your mother say?" and be done with it?

[Malachi151]

According to this juvinile crime is down:

http://www.pbs.org/fmc/book/images/12crim7.gif

http://www.pbs.org/fmc/book/12crime7.htm

Yes I think we are going into moral degredation, its called religion. The more religious any country gets the less moral that it is.

Religion has been on the incline in America generally since the 1950s, well its down since the 50s but its up since before the 50s.

Christianity and Islam are among the most immoral things there are.

On top of that the society is increasingly manipulated by the media and commercialism. Essentially the more "Americans" the country become the less moral it is.

And of course the political situation can't get any more amoral with Bush in office.

So to me a "moral" strengthening of society would be the disipation of religion, the end of commercialism, and greater acceptance of sexuality and the use of recreational drugs.

In case you didn't get get it, morals are in the eye of the beholder...

[American]

Originally posted by bignickel
"Dude who got his legs run over by a tank at Normandy" Yeah, lots of panzers running up and down the beaches of Normandy, they ran so well in that French sand -> is there really a story of this happening to anyone?

Run over by OUR OWN tanks, dumbass.

You read nothing of what I said, you simply reacted in your usual defensive way that I posted anything whatsoever, playing both hero and victim over a non-issue.

[bignickel]

Run over by out side's tanks? Well, at least you got your story straight now.

"wasting his life" - YOU, of all people, have no right whatsoever to say who his wasting his life. It doesn't take long to go through your threads to find plenty of dumba$$ things you've said.

It's a good thing we don't have people like you in power.

Oh wait. We already do.

Brilliant.

Thank you American voters. For electing American's ilk.

[sorgoth]

bignickel: What the hell are you arguing about?

Anyway, I think it's not any worse than before. Media makes us know about all of it, though, so it seems worse.

And, contrary to popular belief, there aren't very many schools where girls dress like Britney Spears. Most have a dress code.

[American]

I call truce bignickel. I forgive your initial bizare accusation.


Don't try and hug me, 'cause I ain't having that. I already said a hundred times I don't like guys.

[Nefertiti]

Does anybody feel that the moral standard of humans has deteriorated something terrible?

Yes. Standards have slipped. Less discipline and less respect are prevalent these days.

[Some Friggin Guy]

I'm 30. It wasn't realy all that long ago I was a teenager in junior high and high school. I can remember the rebellious attitudes I had with my contemporaries.

I can't really answer for today's youth, but 15 years ago, we did drugs. We got drunk. We partied. And we did these things with a reckless abandon. We felt we had a reason, though.

You see, we truly felt none of it mattered. The world seemed to be grinding itself to its own violent end. If you had asked me when I was 15 where I thought I would be today, my answer, without hesitation, would have been "dead, just like everyone else". Looking at today's world, it would not surprise me in the least if that's why young people do the same thing today.

Looking back, I cannot help but think of something my father once told me (I know he was quoting someone, but I don't know who) "If I had known I would have lived this long, I would have taken better care of myself."

[Cinorjer]

I am casting a vote for the moral standards of people being the same now, yesterday, and thousands of years ago. The rate of sexual activity and violence among young people has always been tied to their environment as they grow up, and there's always been poverty and crowded inner city areas from the invention of the first city. Within the elastic rules of morality among civilizations, there's always been a minority that breaks these rules for one reason or another. Humanity has managed to muddle along.

There is a shining light on the horizon. The concept of "human rights" is a modern invention. Before this, saying someone had the right to life, liberty, and being left alone simply by the virtue of being human would have been entirely alien and argued against. The Native Americans were pushed out because there was no moral rule that said it was wrong, and one very popular idea (Manifest Destiny) that said one culture should wipe out another. Slavery as a recognized and socially sanctioned part of any culture is a thing of the past. Of course, there are parts of the world and individuals who don't yet embrace this moral landmark. But it's a start.

[LW]

I couldn't find an online version of Castiglione's (1478 - 1529) Courtier so I can't give a direct quote, but in the beginning of the second book he writes something along these lines:

If the world was heeding downwards at the speed that the old people always say, then it would have hit the rock bottom long time ago.

(Of course, being a 16th century gentiluomo he used much more words to say it.)