Missing girl's blood found in rental car...

[this charming man]

From CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/index.html)

Apparently the parents are suspects now.

Did any psychics "see" this?

[Beerina]

After all that work and international help they got. Haven't seen anything like this since Susan Smith, who claimed a "black man" took her car with the kids in it, which was later found in a lake with the kids.

[Damien Evans]

why does this not surprise me?

[Mercutio]

O.J. did it?

[LibraryLady]

I'm having a hard time being as sympathetic toward these people as I probably should be. Who leaves three small children alone in a hotel room in a strange country, so they can eat at a nice restaurant? If you're traveling with three small kids, order room service or go to a kid friendly restaurant. Or get a professional baby sitting service, as most large hotels have.

Yeesh.

[Ian Osborne]

Speculation's getting out of hand...

http://www.teamtalk.com/Images/141459.jpg

[Mashuna]

I'm having a hard time being as sympathetic toward these people as I probably should be. Who leaves three small children alone in a hotel room in a strange country, so they can eat at a nice restaurant? If you're traveling with three small kids, order room service or go to a kid friendly restaurant. Or get a professional baby sitting service, as most large hotels have.

Yeesh.

Did you read through the link provided? I'm going to have even less sympathy if what's currently being reported turns out to be true.

From the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2164354,00.html),

Detectives suggested to Mrs McCann during questioning yesterday that traces of the four-year-old's blood were found in a car the family first leased 25 days after she went missing from their holiday apartment

[LibraryLady]

Did you read through the link provided? I'm going to have even less sympathy if what's currently being reported turns out to be true.

Well, after the Jon-Benet debacle, I tend to be a little skeptical about this.

[Mashuna]

Well, after the Jon-Benet debacle, I tend to be a little skeptical about this.

Sure, that's probably the best position to hold on these initial reports. I can't quite reconcile how the family would have been involved in transporting their missing daughter in a hire car with the media frenzy that was going on at the time.

I think I'll go back to ignoring the whole thing for a couple of weeks, then catch up on what's been going on.

[Nick Bogaerts]

Who leaves three small children alone in a hotel room in a strange country?

I don't find Portugal strange.

[fuelair]

Speculation's getting out of hand...

http://www.teamtalk.com/Images/141459.jpg
Beautiful!!!:D :D :D :D :D

[Luciana]

I don't find Portugal strange.

Me neither. Portugal is a foreign country, for sure, but not strange. It was a touristic spot largely visited by British people, who own many establishments over there. Hmmm, what would LibraryLady consider a non-strange country?

[Garrette]

I'm having a hard time being as sympathetic toward these people as I probably should be. Who leaves three small children alone in a hotel room in a strange country, so they can eat at a nice restaurant? If you're traveling with three small kids, order room service or go to a kid friendly restaurant. Or get a professional baby sitting service, as most large hotels have.

Yeesh.This has been my position from the get go. If I go to another state in the US I don't leave my kids alone in the hotel while I go to a restaurant.

Of course, now it appears maybe they didn't leave 'em alone, so what're ya gonna do?

[LibraryLady]

Me neither. Portugal is a foreign country, for sure, but not strange. It was a touristic spot largely visited by British people, who own many establishments over there. Hmmm, what would LibraryLady consider a non-strange country?

Okay, okay. I rescind the word "strange." I substitute bizarre, oops, I mean foreign.

[Oubliette]

Question: Were the parents ever charged or something for leaving their children alone without supervision at such a young age? Doesn't that constitute some kind of child neglect? :confused:

[Miss Anthrope]

Question: Were the parents ever charged or something for leaving their children alone without supervision at such a young age? Doesn't that constitute some kind of child neglect? :confused:

I know in cases of abduction and such it is rare police will charge, at least immediately. If, at the time, you are not looking for a reason to hold the parents, putting them in jail seems a bit cruel. I remember several years ago in a well publicized missing child case, the parents told police they'd find marijuana in the house when they searched it. It was explained in the press that because the parents were cooperating fully with the investigation to locate their child, that it would be confiscated but no charges would be filed.

[mummymonkey]

Psychics may not have predicted this, but just about everyone else did.

[andyandy]

if it's definitly her blood, then it's virtually case closed no?

there's no other way for blood to get there 1 month after the "abduction"

still, i don't think it's officially been confirmed as her blood - at the moment we have "a family spokeswoman said that the mother said that the police had said that it was her blood"....

more detailed story
http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2164354,00.html

[CFLarsen]

Okay, okay. I rescind the word "strange." I substitute bizarre, oops, I mean foreign.

Had it been in their own country, it would have been OK?

[andyandy]

Me neither. Portugal is a foreign country, for sure, but not strange. It was a touristic spot largely visited by British people, who own many establishments over there. Hmmm, what would LibraryLady consider a non-strange country?

i think she just meant strange in the sense of strange foreign - not strange strange :)

though surely britain is the most non-strange country no?

[LostAngeles]

The Portugal police are reportedly asking the mother to, "confess."

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/index.html)

Police in Portugal want the mother of Madeleine McCann to "confess" to having accidentally killed the young girl, a relative of the family said Friday.

Philomena McCann, the sister of Madeleine's father, Gerry, told the British news network ITN that police "tried to get Kate to confess to having accidentally killed Madeleine by offering her a deal through her lawyer" in which she would say she killed Madeleine by accident "and then disposed of the body."

There was no immediate confirmation from Portuguese police. Kate and Gerry McCann have previously denied any wrongdoing.

Police on Friday named Madeleine McCann's mother Kate a suspect in her disappearance, and said the girl's blood was found in a vehicle the family rented 25 days after reporting her disappearance, according to a family spokeswoman.

...

[Darat]

The figure in the UK is that about 80% of all child killings are by family members so it would not be unusual if one or both of her parents had killed her.

Despite that statistic perhaps it would be better to at least wait for either of the parents to be at least charged with her killing before jumping to conclusions?

(ETA: And I think the statistics are that a child is much more likely to be killed under the age of 5 by their mother than by the father.)

[CFLarsen]

Philomena McCann, the sister of Madeleine's father, Gerry, told the British news network ITN that police "tried to get Kate to confess to having accidentally killed Madeleine by offering her a deal through her lawyer" in which she would say she killed Madeleine by accident "and then disposed of the body."

When did she have time to hide the body? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#Disappearance)

And where did she hide it, in the time between the disappearance, and the police search? Or 25 days after?

25 days after? Portugal, in the summertime? Either the body was stored in a freezer or was pretty ripe by then.

I dunno....

[Miss Anthrope]

When did she have time to hide the body? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#Disappearance)

And where did she hide it, in the time between the disappearance, and the police search? Or 25 days after?

25 days after? Portugal, in the summertime? Either the body was stored in a freezer or was pretty ripe by then.

I dunno....

Yeah, that's the question that is nagging me. I think it's an interesting development in the case, but I'm not jumping on any single conclusion here.

[Luciana]

Something else I don't understand.

They're saying, at least CNN is, that the mother accidentally killed Madeleine. Er, how can they know it was an accident? Who's to say it wasn't purposeful?

The impression I get is that they're clinging to a positive image of the mother. At the very least, it should be neutral - she may have killed the child. Period. The "accident" part is just speculation.

[Ryokan]

This sounds like the Ramsey case all over again. With the media all over them, how could the mother find time to move a 25-day dead body?

If the police are running a tough interrogation, I hope they have a good case. If innocent, she has just lost a child and doesn't deserve this.

[SusanB-M1]

What I wonder about is - there do not seem to be reports from the friends they were on holiday with and were dining with that evening.

[CFLarsen]

Maybe the police and the parents are trying to smoke out someone.

After months of no body and no criminal, they maybe would try something like that.

[Ipecac]

I agree with Claus. I'm highly skeptical of this. 25 days AFTER they reported her disappearance? And the disappearance itself, happening at a highly visible resort, doesn't suggest parental involvement.

The police thought they found blood in the family car in the disappearance of Azaria Chamberlain too. Turns out it was a chemical sprayed on the car during manufacture that tested like blood.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/fillicide/azaria/

[Gord_in_Toronto]

My first thought was, "Who rented the car on the day the child disappeared"?

[Luciana]

Hmmm... the case would die eventually. By raising suspicions upon the mother, Portugal's police only revives it. Therefore, I'm a bit inclined to believe them. Pressure now isn't stronger than it was weeks ago; they must have some serious evidence before coming up with such a bombastic suspicion. Otherwise, they'll look even more like fools, and I'm sure they don't want that.

[andyandy]

Hmmm... the case would die eventually. By raising suspicions upon the mother, Portugal's police only revives it. Therefore, I'm a bit inclined to believe them. Pressure now isn't stronger than it was weeks ago; they must have some serious evidence before coming up with such a bombastic suspicion. Otherwise, they'll look even more like fools, and I'm sure they don't want that.

Isn't it possible that they were playing a little fast and loose with the truth in the interogation?

eg

"we've got blood traces in the car you rented and our forensics suggest it's madaline's"

when maybe they've got preliminary same blood group analysis (A match or B match...) or some such....

then Madaline's mum tells her spokeswomen that they know that the blood is Madaline's, then she tells the press, then everyone thinks it.....

like a giant out of control chinese whisper....

[Ryokan]

Or the police are all out of leads and under pressure to solve the case, so they jump on the first and best person they could bring to prosecution.

It's not like it has never happened before.

Of course, all we can do is idly speculate until we get the full facts of the case. Something we may never do, like the Ramsey case.

[baron]

I'm usually the last one to speculate about media stories like this, but I have to say I always thought there was something exceedingly strange about that couple. I can't put my finger on it but the first time I saw them on the news they struck me as odd. Their friends, too, those two women. I don't have a clue why I think this way... but I do :confused:

[Ian Osborne]

My first thought was, "Who rented the car on the day the child disappeared"?

Quite. After all, 25-day-old bodies don't bleed any more. And where was the body for those 25 days?

[dudalb]

This sounds like the Ramsey case all over again. With the media all over them, how could the mother find time to move a 25-day dead body?

If the police are running a tough interrogation, I hope they have a good case. If innocent, she has just lost a child and doesn't deserve this.


Are the Portuguese police taking advice on how to handle a missing child case from the Boulder Police Department? You seem to have the same basic incompetence in the early stages of the investigation.
It boggles the mind that the cops would allow the Hotel Room to be rented out before a extensive forensics exam was made.
But if the parents are indeed responsible, a lot of celebs who supported them are going to have egg on their face.

[boooeee]

My first thought was, "Who rented the car on the day the child disappeared"?

They probably know, but wouldn't that be a rather unlikely coincidence? Out of all the rental cars in Portugal, the mother happens to rent the car used in the abduction of her child 25 days earlier?

[CFLarsen]

They probably know, but wouldn't that be a rather unlikely coincidence? Out of all the rental cars in Portugal, the mother happens to rent the car used in the abduction of her child 25 days earlier?

Not all cars in Portugal. Just the cars from the rental companies in the vicinity of their hotel.

[CptColumbo]

This is going to get real ugly, real fast. If it hasn't already.

[Gurdur]

Lindy Chamberlain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azaria_Chamberlain_disappearance) was crucified on public opinion and then in court and in jail. A pity for her it was untrue to accuse her of murder of her daughter Azaria. Perhaps we should all wait before charging in to condemn.

[Madalch]

Me neither. Portugal is a foreign country, for sure, but not strange.
You're only saying that because you speak Portuguese.

[Ryokan]

You seem to have the same basic incompetence in the early stages of the investigation.

I do...? :confused:

[Ryokan]

And now the father is a suspect as well. I sure hope the police know what they're doing.

[Luciana]

You're only saying that because you speak Portuguese.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean we can understand each other's conversation. :D

[Alice Shortcake]

Baron, I thought exactly the same thing. I find it quite bizarre that the McCanns, a professional couple staying at an expensive resort with excellent childcare facilities, chose to leave three small children alone in the apartment whilst they went out for a meal. What must the two younger kids be feeling after Madeleine's disappearance, and what was the point of both parents staying on in Portugal and leaving them with relatives?

[The Atheist]

From CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/index.html)

Apparently the parents are suspects now.

Did any psychics "see" this?

Yep, please send cheque for $US1,000,000 to:

Alan The Atheist
Auckland
NZ

It'll find me.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1037746e1ef8bbf72e.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=8157)

[Big Les]

I'm usually the last one to speculate about media stories like this, but I have to say I always thought there was something exceedingly strange about that couple. I can't put my finger on it but the first time I saw them on the news they struck me as odd. Their friends, too, those two women. I don't have a clue why I think this way... but I do :confused:

Maybe you're a little bit... you know... psychic...

Sorry.

[nightwind]

Good grief. Little dinky police department. Many mistakes. Good gosh sounds just like the Ramsey case. Afraid they are gonna focus on parents, and the real killer gonna get away. Better have a parallel investigation going on this.

Have a funny feeling most likely a predator that did this, and may get away with it, while police focus on parents. Geeezz.

[LashL]

Or the police are all out of leads and under pressure to solve the case, so they jump on the first and best person they could bring to prosecution.

It's not like it has never happened before.

Indeed. It has happened many times in the past and will happen many more times in the future.

Of course, all we can do is idly speculate until we get the full facts of the case. Something we may never do, like the Ramsey case.

And idle speculation is not the stock in trade of skeptics. The last thing we should be doing is condemning this woman by way of gossip and rumour-mongering. Lindy Chamberlain leaps to mind.

[Ryokan]

Have a funny feeling most likely a predator that did this...

Are you suspecting a dingo?? :eek:

[Brian Pears]

They're saying, at least CNN is, that the mother accidentally killed Madeleine. Er, how can they know it was an accident? Who's to say it wasn't purposeful?
A few days ago media reports suggested that the police had found syringes in the hotel room and were suggesting that the McCann's had sedated the children and in so doing had accidentally killed Madeleine.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/17693/-Syringe-found-in-Madeleine-s-apartment-

[Darat]

I'm surprised that story got through the Daily Express's rigorous editorial regime - I mean there isn't a mention of Lady Di in it.

[LibraryLady]

Good grief. Little dinky police department. Many mistakes. Good gosh sounds just like the Ramsey case. Afraid they are gonna focus on parents, and the real killer gonna get away. Better have a parallel investigation going on this.

Have a funny feeling most likely a predator that did this, and may get away with it, while police focus on parents. Geeezz.

Little and dinky really don't have much to do with it. Think of the Susan Smith case and Sheriff Wells who did a parallel investigation from the get go and had the case solved, with the help of the FBI, in nine days.

[Big Les]

Are you suspecting a dingo?? :eek:

I can't believe you went there...

[slingblade]

Well, I will. Go there, to the dingo story.

I remember Lindy Chamberlain's story, and I remember the car, and the infamous "splashback" of blood on the passenger side...that turned out to be a rust-preventative overspray done at time of manufacture. I remember the forensics expert who was either stupid or mendacious when she said she found blood everywhere, and on everything (nearly) the Chamberlains owned.

I don't necessarily trust the authorities--not in high-profile cases, I sure don't. I don't necessarily trust the parents, either.

And I thought of one explanation that fits this particular scenario. I'm fully aware it's highly improbable, but it isn't outside the realm of possiblity:

What if the child was abducted, and carried away in a rental car...the same rental car the parents happened to rent a month later? Is that impossible?

[timhau]

Whether the parents are guilty or not, I find it distasteful how they've toured around Europe to chat with Beckham and the Pope and whoever. At home they have two kids who have lost a sister; shouldn't they be somewhere fairly high on the priority list?

[fuelair]

Something else I don't understand.

They're saying, at least CNN is, that the mother accidentally killed Madeleine. Er, how can they know it was an accident? Who's to say it wasn't purposeful?

The impression I get is that they're clinging to a positive image of the mother. At the very least, it should be neutral - she may have killed the child. Period. The "accident" part is just speculation. Just guessing, but they may be trying to get the case out of the way (tourism and incompetance) so they try to pressure the mother by faking (child's bood in car rented 21 days later - with all coverage/police watching where body hidden, how body got to car, how/where body re-hidden given media/police, why only traces of blood given rest of apparent situation if she was transported in that car??) evidence.

[fuelair]

Well, I will. Go there, to the dingo story.

I remember Lindy Chamberlain's story, and I remember the car, and the infamous "splashback" of blood on the passenger side...that turned out to be a rust-preventative overspray done at time of manufacture. I remember the forensics expert who was either stupid or mendacious when she said she found blood everywhere, and on everything (nearly) the Chamberlains owned.

I don't necessarily trust the authorities--not in high-profile cases, I sure don't. I don't necessarily trust the parents, either.

And I thought of one explanation that fits this particular scenario. I'm fully aware it's highly improbable, but it isn't outside the realm of possiblity:

What if the child was abducted, and carried away in a rental car...the same rental car the parents happened to rent a month later? Is that impossible?
To go real CT here - but noting weirder things have happened - what if someone involved in the disappearance greased palms to get them directed to that rental agency and then that specific car?

[Boo]

It's interesting since they have been named suspects that suddenly the parents want to go back home. Something they insisted they would not do until they could take their daughter with them. Apparently it's now the best place for them to continue the search for what happened to their little girl.




Boo

[timhau]

BTW, what about the poor bastard who was named as a suspect earlier in the investigation?

[CptColumbo]

Do they have negligence or child endangerment laws in Portugal? Would the parent's activities on the day of the alleged abduction fall into that category? I'm sorry I'm not a lawyer here or there, so I don't know the answer.

[andyandy]

BTW, what about the poor bastard who was named as a suspect earlier in the investigation?

his life has been ruined, nothing too heavy.

Imagine being branded as a chief suspect in the biggest internatonal child abduction story of the last few years.....

the portugese system seems pretty sucky - the requirement to brand people as official suspects throws a lot of mud, and one supposes it will continue to stick unless the case is ever resolved.

[Ryokan]

I can't believe you went there...

I thought it was funny...

But then, I'm a weirdo...

[Q-Source]

I can´t stand the UK public and media, most of them blindly believe the story of Madelaine´s parents. It is all about Kate and Gerry, but none of them seem to care about finding the truth about what really happened to the little girl. If the parents are now suspects then why not allow the police to conclude the investigations and wait for the evidence? Instead the media accuses the Police of being incompetent and making up stories.
This is all about Madelaine and not about her parents. Shouldn´t they cooperate to clear any misunderstanding?

[pchams]

Whether the parents are guilty or not, I find it distasteful how they've toured around Europe to chat with Beckham and the Pope and whoever. At home they have two kids who have lost a sister; shouldn't they be somewhere fairly high on the priority list?
If this is true, they surely are guilty of reprehensible conduct towards their (remaining) children.

[TragicMonkey]

Um, why is everybody assuming it would be a body that was the source of blood in a car? It seems more logical that it would be the murder weapon/accident weapon, that much time after. Those have to be disposed of too, and depending on what they are, might be carried under the noses of police and reporters alike.

[Tanja]

Um, why is everybody assuming it would be a body that was the source of blood in a car? It seems more logical that it would be the murder weapon/accident weapon, that much time after. Those have to be disposed of too, and depending on what they are, might be carried under the noses of police and reporters alike.

But, I understand the police believe that they killed her with a syringe? That wouldn't leave much blood, maybe a drop or so...

What a strange case.

[CptColumbo]

I realize that the 24 hour news networks need something to report on an ongoing story, but I hope they are not influencing the investigation by reporting every tid bit of information they get or pushing the police to hasten an investigtion to the point of recklessness.

[Big Les]

I thought it was funny...

Me too.

But then, I'm a weirdo...

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago.

[a_unique_person]

Lindy Chamberlain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azaria_Chamberlain_disappearance) was crucified on public opinion and then in court and in jail. A pity for her it was untrue to accuse her of murder of her daughter Azaria. Perhaps we should all wait before charging in to condemn.

That was the first thing I thought of. I am assuming blood testing is more reliable these days, though.

[SusanB-M1]

On the Radio 4 news this morning, there was a report that the blood found in the car was such a microscopic dot that not only was the DNA poor, but also it could not be determined whether the blood came from a boy or a girl.

ETA Later bulletin referred to the blood as that found in the apartment - so more confusion.

[CFLarsen]

Um, why is everybody assuming it would be a body that was the source of blood in a car? It seems more logical that it would be the murder weapon/accident weapon, that much time after. Those have to be disposed of too, and depending on what they are, might be carried under the noses of police and reporters alike.

Yeah, but.....then, there's the question of how the girl died. If the police thinks the mother accidentally killed her by giving her an overdose.....where does the blood come in?

[Blue Wode]

Yeah, but.....then, there's the question of how the girl died. If the police thinks the mother accidentally killed her by giving her an overdose.....where does the blood come in?


Sedation (not necessarily an overdose) administered early in the evening….wears off a little….girl struggles out of bed in a half-stupor…..falls…..severe head injury......bleeding nose and/or cut(s)…..whatever the body was wrapped in ends up in the boot of the hired car at some point…..?

[CFLarsen]

Sedation (not necessarily an overdose) administered early in the evening….wears off a little….girl struggles out of bed in a half-stupor…..falls…..severe head injury......bleeding nose and/or cut(s)…..whatever the body was wrapped in ends up in the boot of the hired car at some point…..?

Yeah, but....why put the bloody whatever-the-body-was-wrapped-up-in in the trunk?

"Gee, it's been 25 days. We gotta get rid of this blood-stained thing!

I know! Let's rent a car and put it in the trunk!"

Nah.

[Damien Evans]

That was the first thing I thought of. I am assuming blood testing is more reliable these days, though.

That was the second thing i thought of.

The first was this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sharpe_%28Australian_murderer%29

[Blue Wode]

Yeah, but....why put the bloody whatever-the-body-was-wrapped-up-in in the trunk?

"Gee, it's been 25 days. We gotta get rid of this blood-stained thing!

I know! Let's rent a car and put it in the trunk!"

Nah.


Perhaps they lowered their guard because they thought that a safe amount of time had elapsed – i.e. it would be highly unlikely that (an inept?) police department would bring in two of the world's best sniffer dogs and let them loose on a car that had been rented more than three weeks after the alleged abduction. And let’s not forget the stress factor which could easily see the parents becoming sloppy after 25 days.

Having said that, I sincerely hope that the parents are innocent and that there’s still a chance that little Madeleine will be found.

[CFLarsen]

Perhaps they lowered their guard because they thought that a safe amount of time had elapsed – i.e. it would be highly unlikely that (an inept?) police department would bring in two of the world's best sniffer dogs and let them loose on a car that had been rented more than three weeks after the alleged abduction. And let’s not forget the stress factor which could easily see the parents becoming sloppy after 25 days.

Having said that, I sincerely hope that the parents are innocent and that there’s still a chance that little Madeleine will be found.

I dunno. It's when people are under time restraints that they mess up. They had 25 days to wrap the Whatever so no traces of blood would be on anything it connected with in the trunk.

I would focus very much on who had been in range of the car in the 25 days in between.

[Tanja]

That was the second thing i thought of.

The first was this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sharpe_%28Australian_murderer%29

That is, honestly, one of the most disgusting murders I ever read about. I regret clicking on the link.

[Damien Evans]

That is, honestly, one of the most disgusting murders I ever read about. I regret clicking on the link.

I regret hearing it on the news every night for 3 months. It was extremely disturbing.

I really hope it's more like an Azaria situation than a Mornington situation

[Darat]

Just as a point that seems to have been missed by some folks - we do not know if blood or DNA has been found in the rental car, the Portuguese police have not released any details. All we have is at best hearsay.

[sophia8]

Perhaps they lowered their guard because they thought that a safe amount of time had elapsed – i.e. it would be highly unlikely that (an inept?) police department would bring in two of the world's best sniffer dogs and let them loose on a car that had been rented more than three weeks after the alleged abduction. And let’s not forget the stress factor which could easily see the parents becoming sloppy after 25 days.So, where would they have kept her body for 25 days? And how would they have moved it without anyone noticing when they were surrounded by cameras and onlookers everytime they went out in public?
It now seems, according to this news report (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2165457,00.html) that there was no blood in the car, and that whatever DNA was found is incomplete:Revealing the details behind the decision to shift the focus of the investigation onto the McCanns, the source said that in addition to the blood at the holiday flat, DNA evidence had been found in a car rented by the McCanns more than two weeks after Madeleine went missing.

He said that while both samples had matched Madeleine's DNA, since they had degraded over time, this was based on an incomplete picture - only 15 of the available 20 genetic markers usually used for such analysis were found: 'Nineteen out of 20 is what we consider conclusive. In this case, they could extract only 15 - but all of the 15 exactly matched Madeleine's DNA.' He also dismissed as 'simply wrong' recent media reports that blood had been found in the car.

[Blue Wode]

So, where would they have kept her body for 25 days? And how would they have moved it without anyone noticing when they were surrounded by cameras and onlookers everytime they went out in public?


Could their friends have been involved?


It now seems, according to this news report (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2165457,00.html) that there was no blood in the car, and that whatever DNA was found is incomplete:


Some comments about that from a poster on another site:


A person generally has two versions of each marker, one from each parent (I don't know the relative frequencies of the alleles - you might be homozygotic for some of them) so for each of those 15 markers it should be clear whether they have in their sample pairs of alleles or four sets. I'd hope it's really a match for 15 out of 15, with the other 5 being unusable due to degradation of the sample, because if they had the other 5 out of 20 and they didn't match (and they ought to have the parents' profiles to compare with too) then that's a different person.

http://www.badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=50074#50074



From the Guardian article posted by Sophia8:
But the key sample, he said, came from blood found in the flat where the family was staying at the Mark Warner resort in Praia da Luz. 'It was a small quantity and was found on the floor, which had been washed a number of times since Madeleine's disappearance,' he said.


Interestingly, if you click on the ‘Keela’s Weekly Diary’ link here
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/kidzone/dogdiary/index.php
(Keela was one of the Crime Scene Investigation dogs used in Portugal) it says that Keela is trained to locate minute samples of blood and can assist not only in murder investigation but also with scenes of crime teams to identify and recover evidence more efficiently....


Martin [Grime, Keela’s handler] explained the reasons for training a CSI dog: “Although South Yorkshire Police have two victim recovery dogs that can detect blood and human remains we felt the need to separate the two search areas. We wanted to create a more specific working dog that could accurately detect very small samples of human blood.

“We had to change the way the dog is trained to alert its handler about a ‘find’. Normal recovery dogs will bark to signal this. In this case it is not appropriate, as the dog would be trained to sniff out blood that is often too small for the human eye to see. Instead, the dog will locate the contaminated area by pointing its nose at the spot where the blood is situated. This is much more accurate.”

-snip-

Keela followed a programme training her to ignore decomposing body materials other than human blood. She is also trained to have a ‘passive’ alert- where she freezes with her nose as near to the subject matter as possible without touching, to enable scientists to recover the sample quickly and efficiently.

-snip-

She screens textiles and can pick out clothing with blood on even after it has been washed many times in biological washing powder. Offenders can’t even trick her by trying to clean their weapons, as Keela would still smell blood after attempts have been made to wash away the evidence.

[sophia8]

Could their friends have been involved? Yes, their friends could have been involved. Hey, what about the restaurant staff - could they have been part of it? Or the hotel owner? Maybe the police were in on it as well!
Helped, of course, by the aliens from Aldebaran, they ones who were spotted hovering in their UFO over the area that night.....

[Big Les]

Quite - let's not stoop to the level of the tabloids message boards.

[Blue Wode]

Quite - let's not stoop to the level of the tabloids message boards.


Big Les, although I was just responding to points raised by CF Larsen and Sophia 8, on reflection, you are absolutely right.

However, I would be interested to know why you recently started this thread:


Madeleine McCann death an accident?

An interesting development in this high profile (in the UK at least) missing/murdered child case. It seems that the Portuguese police may be working under the hypothesis that the girl was killed in the hotel room by accident and was not abducted after all. This would explain why they've been so focussed upon evidence within the hotel room. They could of course be completely wrong. Elements of the media are accusing the police are implicating the parents themselves in the death of their daughter.

I realise speculation is difficult and perhaps even inappropriate, but I'd be interested in any thoughts from posters here.

ETA - found some somewhat sceptical commentary here. Watch out for the briansdreams.com psychic supporters though. They're all over this one. The main reason I'm still even following this despite the ghoulish tabloid circus is to make sure I don't miss Bri cashing in on whatever the outcome is determined to be (if indeed it can be).

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=91183

[Big Les]

You're right Blue Wode, I'm as guilty of it as any of us (though I wasn't aiming that at you in particular). I suppose I've taken some of the comments by other posters to heart is all; commentary on what the psychics are up to is one thing, but speculation of our own seems on reflection to be pretty pointless.

[richardm]

Yeah, but....why put the bloody whatever-the-body-was-wrapped-up-in in the trunk?

"Gee, it's been 25 days. We gotta get rid of this blood-stained thing!

I know! Let's rent a car and put it in the trunk!"

Nah.

Well, since we're in rampant speculation mode...

Little Maddie won't shut up, and gets accidentally killed by mother whose patience snaps.
Panic.
Mother's career is ruined, the other kids will be taken into care, she could go to prison for bloody years, and a horrid Portuguese prison to boot, it will be dreadful and it's all so unfair because it was just an accident. So what can we do about it?

Load the other kids up on tranquilisers to keep them quiet and out of the way. Move the body out of the apartment sharpish - nobody is suspecting anything yet so this is relatively easy to do - and get it hidden. Go back to the apartment and clean up any mess. Retranquilise the kids if necessary and go to dinner to establish your alibi. Pop back every half an hour and be seen to do so - obviously you don't take up the available child watching service because they might notice there are only two kids in the apartment. When those other kids have fully woken from their drugs induced stupor, or any suitable interval has passed, raise the alarm that Maddie has been abducted.

Tough it out for 25 days - a decently long interval after which most of the searching effort has tailed off. Hire a car, recover the body and hide it in a better, more permanent hiding place further away from the search area. Job's a good 'un, the police are clearly inept and suspect nothing, we'll get away with this no problem. What do you mean they've found traces of blood in the hire car? Bugger. Off back to England I think.

Mind you it sounds like the match in the car is a bit marginal. Given that, I'm not sure how they are supposed to be certain that it's Maddy's blood and not someone else from the family.

[CFLarsen]

Well, since we're in rampant speculation mode...

Heck, why not? And let's see what critical thinking can do... :)

Little Maddie won't shut up, and gets accidentally killed by mother whose patience snaps.
Panic.
Mother's career is ruined, the other kids will be taken into care, she could go to prison for bloody years, and a horrid Portuguese prison to boot, it will be dreadful and it's all so unfair because it was just an accident. So what can we do about it?

OK, so far. Takes one hell of a cold-blooded woman, with huge balls, but....OK.

Load the other kids up on tranquilisers to keep them quiet and out of the way.

Whoopsies. Where did mommy get all those tranqs from? If she brought them into Portugal, she must have had a reason. "Wanna explain these drugs, Ma'am?"

Of course, there is the possibility that she brought the tranqs to kill her child. But to do so in a foreign country, instead of her own home, where she had so much better opportunity to conceal everything?

Nah.

Move the body out of the apartment sharpish - nobody is suspecting anything yet so this is relatively easy to do - and get it hidden.

Whoopsies. To where? Mommy must have known the whole place would be searched, down to the last cockroach. A missing guy may result in a search, but a missing child will result in a very thorough search.

Go back to the apartment and clean up any mess. Retranquilise the kids if necessary and go to dinner to establish your alibi. Pop back every half an hour and be seen to do so - obviously you don't take up the available child watching service because they might notice there are only two kids in the apartment. When those other kids have fully woken from their drugs induced stupor, or any suitable interval has passed, raise the alarm that Maddie has been abducted.

Whoopsies. Now, you are talking a very elaborate scheme here. An accidental death way before anyone would notice anything. Got a time table, perchance?

Tough it out for 25 days - a decently long interval after which most of the searching effort has tailed off. Hire a car, recover the body

Whoopsies. Recover the body from where? It's Portugal, mate. Not a steaming hot inferno, but nevertheless not a climate where you can store a body, even as small as a 4-year old, without anyone noticing the smell.

Unless, of course, you had a freezer handy.

and hide it in a better, more permanent hiding place further away from the search area. Job's a good 'un, the police are clearly inept and suspect nothing, we'll get away with this no problem. What do you mean they've found traces of blood in the hire car? Bugger. Off back to England I think.

Whoopsies. Hide it where?

Mind you it sounds like the match in the car is a bit marginal. Given that, I'm not sure how they are supposed to be certain that it's Maddy's blood and not someone else from the family.

Whoopsies. If they were, they wouldn't just point to the parents as suspects. They would haul their asses into the lowest dungeon and start interrogating.





If I said "Whoopsies", I didn't really mean it.

[HarryKeogh]

Maybe John Mark Karr could shed some light on this.

[Darat]

...snip...


Whoopsies. If they were, they wouldn't just point to the parents as suspects. They would haul their asses into the lowest dungeon and start interrogating.


...snip...

Are you not aware they had been subjected to extremely long and legal interrogation prior to being made "Arguido/a"?

Portugal is a very well developed country with a long and respected legal tradition equal to anything in the UK they do not not use dungeons.

[MRC_Hans]

When did she have time to hide the body? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#Disappearance)


Uhh, if she killed and disposed of the girl, we cannot trust the timeline in her explanation. Quite the contrary, it would of course be falsified in a way to make her look innicent.

And where did she hide it, in the time between the disappearance, and the police search? Or 25 days after?

The blood need not have come directly from the body. It could have come off something. Somebody asked an interesting question, however: Where was that car on the evening of the disappearance? The number of rental cars in the vicinity must be at least finite (if large), so there could be a coincidence of some kind.

Hans

[richardm]

OK, so far. Takes one hell of a cold-blooded woman, with huge balls, but....OK.

Because there is absolutely no precedent for a mother killing a child and covering up the fact.


Whoopsies. Where did mommy get all those tranqs from? If she brought them into Portugal, she must have had a reason. "Wanna explain these drugs, Ma'am?"

Because there is absolutely no precedent for anyone to carry tranquilisers into another EU country.


Of course, there is the possibility that she brought the tranqs to kill her child. But to do so in a foreign country, instead of her own home, where she had so much better opportunity to conceal everything?

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the concept of "Accidental"


Whoopsies. To where? Mommy must have known the whole place would be searched, down to the last cockroach. A missing guy may result in a search, but a missing child will result in a very thorough search.


If I knew where, I'd be selling Tarot readings down the phone for £1.50 an hour. The important thing would be to get the body out of the apartment, because if it's found in there then it is game over.

Whoopsies. Now, you are talking a very elaborate scheme here. An accidental death way before anyone would notice anything. Got a time table, perchance?

Do you know what, I don't have a timetable but I do know that it is possible for people to lie about the order in which things happen.


Whoopsies. Recover the body from where? It's Portugal, mate. Not a steaming hot inferno, but nevertheless not a climate where you can store a body, even as small as a 4-year old, without anyone noticing the smell.


Buried? Polythene bags? I didn't suggest it would be a pleasant job. And amazingly enough, I'm familiar with the climate in Portugal.


Whoopsies. Hide it where?


Well, I don't know, where would you hide a body? A "better place" might be a deeper hole somewhere further away from the complex - the further away you go, the less likely it is to be included in random searches.

If I said "Whoopsies", I didn't really mean it.

Ah, I see, I simply assumed that you were trying to argue your point in the most annoying manner possible.

So, are you saying that there is no possible way you can see that the parents could have killed their child and concealed the fact (and the body)? Is your rejection of this idea based on your inability to see how they could have handled the logistics of the concealment, or based on your inability to believe that someone could act in such a cold-blooded manner?

[Darat]

And to use the tools of critical thinking: Whilst it may be sad and rather unpleasant it is a fact that the chief suspects most be the parents and that a mother is the most likely one to have killed the child.

That's just using the evidence we have about who does actually kill children.

[richardm]

That's just using the evidence we have about who does actually kill children.

And really that's all we do have to go on - most of the rest of what we've got is hearsay, rumour, conjecture, due apparently to the legal setup in Portugal where the police aren't supposed to say anything about the case while it's being investigated.

[Darat]

Yep I agree - with the interest in this case the number of people I've had conversations that have gone like "But the blood was found in the car..." and then I've quietly tried to mention that we have nearly zero confirmed and official information about the investigation, we don't know what has been found and where, what the actual time line was and so on.

[Lothian]

I think all this speculation by people who don’t know the facts to be quite distasteful. I for one will not be guessing on what happened other than to say I never liked them and always thought they did it.

[Darat]

And people say trial by jury is a right we should fight to retain..



;)

[Gurdur]

I would like to add:

Just while it is true that in many societies (not all) the most common killers are relatives of the victim, the McCann pair have other children -- and not ONE hint has ever been mooted of any child abuse or neglect whatsoever, AFAIK.

So they have other children, with absolutely no signs of maltreatment or neglect, but they're suddenly supposed to have murdered one of their children, and to have carried that out in cold blood and a great deal of planning? With absolutely no motive to see?

Give me a break. Witchhunting against the McCann pair is ridiculous at this stage.

The treatment of Lindy Chamberlain is a huge blot on the Australian populace and justice system; I don't forget how much that innocent woman was crucified.

[Professor Yaffle]

The thing that strikes me about the theory that the McCanns hid the child somewhere and then moved the body at some point later on is that it seems absurd that they would have courted the media so much if this were the situation. It seems like they have had the media practically camped on their doorstep ever since it happened. That makes it a bit more difficult to dispose of a body.

Personally I have no clue whether they did it or not, since we have so little verifiable information.

[richardm]

not ONE hint has ever been mooted of any child abuse or neglect whatsoever, AFAIK.


They left a three year old girl and two-year-old twins unattended while they went out to dinner. They didn't dash off in an emergency. They could have taken advantage of the baby sitting services of one type or another offered by the resort. They swanned off and left three children under the age of four alone while they went off to enjoy themselves.

This doesn't make them murderers, but it does suggest that they're hardly the model parents you're suggesting. If it had been a teenage single mother who'd done it the kids would probably have been taken into care.

Note also that it has only been suggested that Madeleine was killed accidentally - I don't think anyone is suggesting that they took her to Portugal with the intention of killing her.

Edit: Previous thread on whether it's a good idea to leave small children unattended or not (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=82165)

Edit again: While I'm deep in the realms of supposition:

The thing that strikes me about the theory that the McCanns hid the child somewhere and then moved the body at some point later on is that it seems absurd that they would have courted the media so much if this were the situation. It seems like they have had the media practically camped on their doorstep ever since it happened. That makes it a bit more difficult to dispose of a body.

I'd propose that the initial disposal was done before the "She's gone!" hoopla got started. If the body had been found then they could try to blame the abductor, but there's still a chance that a forensic investigation could get to the bottom of the matter. An opportunity arose to move the body to a more permanent resting place where it would not be found or would be less easy to examine, and they took it.

Edit: Or the whole thing about the car is not true.

[Darat]

I would like to add:

Just while it is true that in many societies (not all) the most common killers are relatives of the victim,

...snip...

Slightly off-topic - I've only come across figures for countries like the UK that are in the EU (oh and the USA & Canada and I'm assuming you aren't meaning child deaths in countries in a state of war?) which societies doesn't it hold for?

[CFLarsen]

Are you not aware they had been subjected to extremely long and legal interrogation prior to being made "Arguido/a"?

Until September 6th, they had been interviewed once, with the legal status as parents-missing-a-child, lasting a couple of hours.

Portugal is a very well developed country with a long and respected legal tradition equal to anything in the UK they do not not use dungeons.

It's a euphemism.

Uhh, if she killed and disposed of the girl, we cannot trust the timeline in her explanation. Quite the contrary, it would of course be falsified in a way to make her look innicent.

That's true. However, whatever the timeline is, there is precious little time at all to do a lot of things covertly.

The blood need not have come directly from the body. It could have come off something. Somebody asked an interesting question, however: Where was that car on the evening of the disappearance? The number of rental cars in the vicinity must be at least finite (if large), so there could be a coincidence of some kind.

There certainly could. Rental cars cannot be all that many, even in a touristy area.

Because there is absolutely no precedent for a mother killing a child and covering up the fact.

I didn't say there weren't.

Because there is absolutely no precedent for anyone to carry tranquilisers into another EU country.

But for what? She was regularly sedating her children? With what? Could be simple painkillers, of course.

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the concept of "Accidental"

Not at all. She could have sedated the child, and she could have accidentally killed her. But it sure is a huge step conjuring this elaborate "oops-she's-dead-let's-hide-the-body" scenario.

If I knew where, I'd be selling Tarot readings down the phone for £1.50 an hour. The important thing would be to get the body out of the apartment, because if it's found in there then it is game over.

It sure is. However, when a child goes missing, it isn't just the apartment that gets searched. Everything around it got searched. A kid that age is missing could very easily have just wandered off. In fact, that would be the most obvious explanation, at least from the beginning.

Do you know what, I don't have a timetable but I do know that it is possible for people to lie about the order in which things happen.

Yes, it is. However, that would require the husband to be involved from a very early start. Now, the plot thickens.

Buried? Polythene bags? I didn't suggest it would be a pleasant job. And amazingly enough, I'm familiar with the climate in Portugal.

Excellent. Where does one get polythene bags at that time of day? Bags that can hide a child's body for over 3 weeks?

Well, I don't know, where would you hide a body? A "better place" might be a deeper hole somewhere further away from the complex - the further away you go, the less likely it is to be included in random searches.

Yep, that would be a good idea. But, we are talking about late at night, in a populous area. Burying someone would take time. Think the hole would not be discovered?

Ah, I see, I simply assumed that you were trying to argue your point in the most annoying manner possible.

.....mate, we are all speculating here, trying out ideas, based on what we have been told. No need to get prissy.

So, are you saying that there is no possible way you can see that the parents could have killed their child and concealed the fact (and the body)? Is your rejection of this idea based on your inability to see how they could have handled the logistics of the concealment, or based on your inability to believe that someone could act in such a cold-blooded manner?

I am saying that the story, as we have been fed it, is not very likely, when we look closer at it

And to use the tools of critical thinking: Whilst it may be sad and rather unpleasant it is a fact that the chief suspects most be the parents and that a mother is the most likely one to have killed the child.

That's just using the evidence we have about who does actually kill children.

It may very well be the case. However, in this case, I see it much more likely that the child was in fact simply abducted and taken away, instead of this huge, elaborate scenario with the mother killing her child and keeping it hidden for weeks. Right under the scrutiny of the nosy press.

And really that's all we do have to go on - most of the rest of what we've got is hearsay, rumour, conjecture, due apparently to the legal setup in Portugal where the police aren't supposed to say anything about the case while it's being investigated.

Of course.

I would like to add:

Just while it is true that in many societies (not all) the most common killers are relatives of the victim, the McCann pair have other children -- and not ONE hint has ever been mooted of any child abuse or neglect whatsoever, AFAIK.

So they have other children, with absolutely no signs of maltreatment or neglect, but they're suddenly supposed to have murdered one of their children, and to have carried that out in cold blood and a great deal of planning? With absolutely no motive to see?

Give me a break. Witchhunting against the McCann pair is ridiculous at this stage.

The treatment of Lindy Chamberlain is a huge blot on the Australian populace and justice system; I don't forget how much that innocent woman was crucified.

It looks very much like this is such a case, yes.

[Professor Yaffle]

And to use the tools of critical thinking: Whilst it may be sad and rather unpleasant it is a fact that the chief suspects most be the parents and that a mother is the most likely one to have killed the child.

That's just using the evidence we have about who does actually kill children.

In a very quick google for figures, I found a study about predictors of maternal filicide which quoted figures for the USA saying it was equally likely to be the father (31%) as the mother (30%) for under fives. Not sure if that is a common pattern in different countries. For a child under the age of 1, I know that mothers are far more likely to be perpetrators.

Edit: found another one from New Zealand in which the fathers were more likely to be the perpetrators (31%) than the mothers (24%) with "defacto" parents accounting for a further 18% - for children up to the age of 14.

Anyhow, your general point seems to hold true, that at least in the West, when a child is killed, the most likelt perpetrator is a parent, followed by other relatives and people known to the child. Stranger murders are the least likely.

However it doesn't follow necessarily that in a particular murder, a parent is the most likely perpetrator. For example if we take a subgroup of murders in which the child is first reported missing - would the figures for the perpetrators still show the parents to be the most likely to have killed the child?

[Professor Yaffle]

Slightly off-topic - I've only come across figures for countries like the UK that are in the EU (oh and the USA & Canada and I'm assuming you aren't meaning child deaths in countries in a state of war?) which societies doesn't it hold for?

Apart from wartorn countries, figures might also be different in countries where the government routinely "disappears" street children (although these children probably wouldn't actually appear in official statistics, or if they did would be "unknown perpetrator"). But again, I don't think this is what was being talked about.

[The Atheist]

Edit: found another one from New Zealand in which the fathers were more likely to be the perpetrators (31%) than the mothers (24%) with "defacto" parents accounting for a further 18% - for children up to the age of 14.

Yes indeed - if you ever want to know about child murder, NZ is the [free] world leader and those figures are correct, almost 3/4 are murdered by parents or boy/girl friend of the parent caregiver. I think you'll find a high percentage of the rest are committed by other close family members.

Just a thought:

When was the last time a child was abducted from a hotel and killed - in an OECD country? I certainly can't recall it ever happening, while a kid is killed by its parents every 30 days, just in NZ.

Not saying it can't have happened, just makes it very, very unlikely.

[The Atheist]

It's a euphemism.

I think the word you're looking for is "metaphor". A euphemism for dungeon would be: "Underground attitude and veracity adjustment area".

[Rat]

If I knew where, I'd be selling Tarot readings down the phone for £1.50 an hour.
Isn't that a little bit cheap for accurate readings of the future?

[richardm]

Isn't that a little bit cheap for accurate readings of the future?

I don't think it's right that I should profit from my powers.

[Professor Yaffle]

When was the last time a child was abducted from a hotel and killed - in an OECD country? I certainly can't recall it ever happening, while a kid is killed by its parents every 30 days, just in NZ.

Not saying it can't have happened, just makes it very, very unlikely.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any (but that doesn't mean their haven't been any). the closest I can think of is Caroline Dickinson who was murdered in a Youth Hostel while on a school trip to France. But she wasn't abducted, but raped and murdered in the Youth Hostel.

Edit: I also thought of Ben Needham, but his body has never been found, and the family were living in Greece in a farmhouse (where he disappeared from), rather than on holiday in a hotel.

[Ian Osborne]

I don't think it's right that I should profit from my powers.

Then take the Million Dollar Challenge and give the money to charity...

(etc)

[dudalb]

I think the thing we can all agree on is that Portugeuse Police appeared to have done a job of investigating this that is worthy of Inspector Closeau.

[shuize]

I'm late to this story. Police apparently found blood in a rental car used by the parents. Police assert it matches that of the missing girl. How solid is this evidence? Because if it does match, then, as I believe it was posted above, it's game over.

The other point, which I know has already been noted above: Who in the hell leaves three children under four years old alone to go out to dinner?

[LostAngeles]

I'm late to this story. Police apparently found blood in a rental car used by the parents. Police assert it matches that of the missing girl. How solid is this evidence? Because if it does match, then, as I believe it was posted above, it's game over.

The other point, which I know has already been noted above: Who in the hell leaves three children under four years old alone to go out to dinner?

Except the police haven't asserted anything other than formally naming the parents as suspects. The reasoning as to why and theories are coming from third parties who are close to the parents. Portuguese police have been pretty tight-lipped to the public at large as to what they have or haven't found.

[richardm]

I'm late to this story. Police apparently found blood in a rental car used by the parents. Police assert it matches that of the missing girl. How solid is this evidence?

It's all a bit iffy because we've been told nothing officially. It's all third-party speculation from the McCanns via "a friend".

[Gurdur]

Slightly off-topic - I've only come across figures for countries like the UK that are in the EU (oh and the USA & Canada and I'm assuming you aren't meaning child deaths in countries in a state of war?) which societies doesn't it hold for?
That is why I said "many societies (not all)". I can think of a good many exceptions off-hand.
________

They left a three year old girl and two-year-old twins unattended while they went out to dinner.
Not quite true. They made regular checkups.
This doesn't make them murderers, but it does suggest that they're hardly the model parents you're suggesting.
Love the strawman. Your suppositions and half-truth don't make them the child-murderers nor the child-neglecters that you are suggesting.

Note also that it has only been suggested that Madeleine was killed accidentally - I don't think anyone is suggesting that they took her to Portugal with the intention of killing her.
So now you're suggesting the child died by accident and the parents remained cool as cucumbers and went into a really elaborate cover-up plot? This gets more and more ridiculous as it goes on. Bias much?

[shuize]

Except the police haven't asserted anything other than formally naming the parents as suspects. The reasoning as to why and theories are coming from third parties who are close to the parents. Portuguese police have been pretty tight-lipped to the public at large as to what they have or haven't found.

It's all a bit iffy because we've been told nothing officially. It's all third-party speculation from the McCanns via "a friend".

Thanks for the clarification.

[casebro]

Isn't a partial DNA match an indication that the sample is from a close relative?

How close are the parents related- to each other?

[Boo]

The supposition that the mother was carrying pain killers or narcotics to "tranq" the children with is a bit extreme. It's easy enough to sedate children with over the counter medications in amounts that would not be at all suspicious for two adults who are traveling. A few ounces of alcohol would do quite nicely as well.



Boo

[LostAngeles]

The supposition that the mother was carrying pain killers or narcotics to "tranq" the children with is a bit extreme. It's easy enough to sedate children with over the counter medications in amounts that would not be at all suspicious for two adults who are traveling. A few ounces of alcohol would do quite nicely as well.



Boo

I thought that was in the news fairly recently.

Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/health/14seda.html?ex=1344744000&en=4ba6828794d7a5fa&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink)

...
Whatever the merits of that confrontation, doctors say there is one lesson to take away: drugs like Benadryl should never be given to sedate a child. For one thing, they can have side effects, including constipation and respiratory problems. And for another, in some children they produce the exact opposite of the desired effect.

“Instead of becoming sleepy they can become very animated and less controllable,” said Dr. Charles J. Coté, a pediatric anesthesiologist at Harvard Medical School.

That paradoxical reaction to the antihistamines contained in many common cold medicines and allergy remedies occurs in as many as 5 percent to 10 percent of children, some experts say. It is not medically dangerous, but it can take a couple of hours to wear off. Indeed, the fine print on these drugs’ labels warns of possible “excitability.”

Nevertheless, the use of such medicines to make children drowsy is widespread. “Inappropriate use clearly is a very common practice,” said Dr. Philip Walson, a professor of pediatrics and pharmacology at Cincinnati Children’s Hospital Medical Center.

Dr. Philippe Similon, a pediatrician in Manhattan, says the question of how to travel with young children, and whether it is safe to give them nonprescription sedatives, has become one of the most common in his practice.

...
Dr. Coté and other experts say that while children under 2 tend to have the hardest time staying put in a confined space, they are also the most vulnerable to overdoses and respiratory problems. If a sleeping child’s airways become blocked — by a nose pressed against a seat, for example — the sedation can blunt the natural reflex to shift position.
...
Link (http://www.courttv.com/trials/bieber/082205_ctv.html)

A toxicologist who studies the effects of drugs on children told jurors Monday that the only plausible explanation for the death of toddler Dane Heggem was that he suffocated in his sleep after being given a dose of allergy medication.

"I think he was sedated. Then he was put or got on his stomach, his face was resting at the bottom of his playpen, and he didn't breathe enough because he was sedated," said Dr. Philip Walson a pediatric toxicologist/pharmacologist at Cincinnati Children's Hospital. "He stopped breathing, and then his heart stopped."

Her eyes red and glassy, Calista Heggem sat in the second row of the small Billings courtroom and listened intently to a fourth day of testimony about her 1-year-old son's death.

Prosecutors say Tiny Tots day-care center operator Sabine Bieber gave Dane and at least three other children in her care doses of liquid diphenhydramine — an antihistamine found in Benadryl — with their lunches to get them to sleep.

...

[Darat]

That is why I said "many societies (not all)". I can think of a good many exceptions off-hand.

...snip...

Which ones?

[Darat]

I think the thing we can all agree on is that Portugeuse Police appeared to have done a job of investigating this that is worthy of Inspector Closeau.

I don't agree with this - I have no reason at the moment to suspect that the Portuguese police have not followed their usual professional practices.

[richardm]

Not quite true. They made regular checkups.


"Every quarter hour! Well, every half hour. Well, she vanished somewhere between 9 and 10"


Love the strawman

What strawman?


So now you're suggesting the child died by accident and the parents remained cool as cucumbers and went into a really elaborate cover-up plot? This gets more and more ridiculous as it goes on. Bias much?

Why do you think that I'm biased? Why do you think the police have named the parents as suspects? It seems that you find it utterly inconceivable that the parents could be responsible in any way; is that your position?

Re: Police practices; Again, it's difficult to draw many sensible conclusions about how the police have handled the case because much of what we've heard has been rants from the McCann's friends about what a dreadful job they're doing. Since their only experience of police work is, by their own admission, from watching CSI on the television, we should perhaps be cautious about mudslinging. Although if it's true that they allowed the apartment to be re-rented to other people before a forensic investigation was done, then it seems a bit dodgy (I watch CSI and The Bill so am an expert)

[Darat]

"Every quarter hour! Well, every half hour. Well, she vanished somewhere between 9 and 10"

...snip...

And again we've only had what other people have said happened - we don't know what statements were actually made to the Police nor what timeline has actually been verified by the police. All we do know is that three young children were left on their own in a holiday apartment whilst their parents went out socialising for the evening.

[CFLarsen]

Looks like the case against the McCanns is dissolving.

Portuguese police have played down reports that DNA evidence with a 100% match to Madeleine was found in her parents' hire car.
...
The national director of the force handling the investigation said test results did not provide the same precision as had been reported.

Alipio Ribeiro, national director of the investigative Policia Judiciaria (PJ) told Portuguese state broadcaster RTP: "We can't say with certainty whether it was the blood of person A or person B.

"They help guide us in our investigation but not with the mathematical precision some people are saying."
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988485.stm)

[Darat]

Looks like the case against the McCanns is dissolving.


There is no evidence available that leads to that conclusion. (Because we have no idea what the reasons are or what evidence has so far led the police to declaring them "official suspects".)

[brodski]

Looks like the case against the McCanns is dissolving.

It would only hold, from the statement you quoted, that the case was "dissolving" if it contradicted a previous statement from the police. If the police had never claimed that the DNA was conclusive, then how would this clarification amount to a dissolving of the case?

So, can you show that the police have less evidence against the parents today than they did yesterday?

What is the other evidence against the parents? How do you get this special knowledge?

[Ipecac]

Man, this all sounds way too familiar.

Speculation, rumor, innuendo about the parents, accusations of police incompetence, suggesting that because they weren't ideal parents, they're murderers, suggesting they're complicit because they acted "strangely". And no facts behind any of it.

Sounds like the Ramsey case all over.

[The Atheist]

Man, this all sounds way too familiar.

Speculation, rumor, innuendo about the parents, accusations of police incompetence, suggesting that because they weren't ideal parents, they're murderers, suggesting they're complicit because they acted "strangely". And no facts behind any of it.

Sounds like the Ramsey case all over.

Well, given some of the facts we do have involve parents leaving their infant children unattended, I don't think there's any similarity at all with the Ramsey case.

Had they been any kind of responsible parents, this case wouldn't exist - not in its present form, anyway.

[CFLarsen]

There is no evidence available that leads to that conclusion. (Because we have no idea what the reasons are or what evidence has so far led the police to declaring them "official suspects".)

It would only hold, from the statement you quoted, that the case was "dissolving" if it contradicted a previous statement from the police. If the police had never claimed that the DNA was conclusive, then how would this clarification amount to a dissolving of the case?

So, can you show that the police have less evidence against the parents today than they did yesterday?

What is the other evidence against the parents? How do you get this special knowledge?

I'm psychic. Well, just as psychic as the psychics.... :)

That they are only suspects is precisely the issue: They are not charged. Whatever the police has, it is not particularly strong. Definitely not strong enough to file charges.

If the DNA lead leads nowhere, the police would have to have much better evidence, if they think they still have a case.

But if they did, would they not charge them, instead of naming them suspects - and allow them to leave the country?

To me, it looks as if the DNA was found in the car, they were named suspects, but then, the DNA lead fizzled out and they were allowed to leave.

[Darat]

I'm psychic. Well, just as psychic as the psychics.... :)

That they are only suspects is precisely the issue:



What issue?

Also they have been made "arguido/a", which is not the same as being named a suspect in the UK (and I presume Denmark?). It has a special legal status that alters how they can be questioned by the police in regards to what the police can ask them, what legal representation they can have during an interview with the police and other legal rights.



They are not charged. Whatever the police has, it is not particularly strong. Definitely not strong enough to file charges.



How do you know this? It appears that the Portuguese system is somewhat similar to the UK system in that whether to charge someone is a matter for the official prosecution system not the police. (it appears like in the UK on the whole the police investigate and arrest and a separate part of the judicial system determines if someone is charged with having committed a crime). The confirmed (by the Portuguese police) information is that they have passed their file on the case onto the prosecutor for him/her to make his/her determination of what the next step should be.



If the DNA lead leads nowhere, the police would have to have much better evidence, if they think they still have a case.


Only if the police had relied on some specific DNA evidence as a significant part of their investigation and then this evidence turned out to be not as strong as they had originally believed, we do not know if this is the case or not. We have no idea of the significance of any DNA evidence in this case.


But if they did, would they not charge them, instead of naming them suspects - and allow them to leave the country?


See my above comments regarding the Portuguese legal system.


To me, it looks as if the DNA was found in the car, they were named suspects, but then, the DNA lead fizzled out and they were allowed to leave.

Based on what confirmed evidence?

[Professor Yaffle]

Apparently ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2429822.ece ) they have now handed over the evidence to a judge who is the one who decides whether the evidence is strong enough to prosecute. He has 10 days to decide how to proceed (and 8 months to bring charges).

[richardm]

The confirmed (by the Portuguese police) information is that they have passed their file on the case onto the prosecutor for him/her to make his/her determination of what the next step should be.


The prosecutor has now in turn passed the file on to a Judge, which is the next step along the line of escalation. The Judge is responsible for approving/deciding the next course of action, whether that be to authorise more searches, haul them back in for questioning, doing the equivalent of committing them for trial them, or indeed cancelling their "suspect" status altogether. Being "a suspect" in Portugal confers various extra rights on an individual, including the right to silence etc.

It was passed on unexpectedly quickly - the police stated that they expected it would take a few days to go through the evidence, but the file was passed within a few hours. Whether this is because there is pressure to get things moving quickly, or whether the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of prosecution, or whether the evidence is overwhelmingly absent, we do not yet know.

Edit: Dagnabbit, Professor Yaffle!

[CFLarsen]

What issue?

...what we are discussing.

Also they have been made "arguido/a", which is not the same as being named a suspect in the UK (and I presume Denmark?). It has a special legal status that alters how they can be questioned by the police in regards to what the police can ask them, what legal representation they can have during an interview with the police and other legal rights.

It's not the same here, either. If you're a suspect in a missing child case, you are not (necessarily) held in custody, but you are certainly not allowed to leave the country, either.

How do you know this? It appears that the Portuguese system is somewhat similar to the UK system in that whether to charge someone is a matter for the official prosecution system not the police. (it appears like in the UK on the whole the police investigate and arrest and a separate part of the judicial system determines if someone is charged with having committed a crime). The confirmed (by the Portuguese police) information is that they have passed their file on the case onto the prosecutor for him/her to make his/her determination of what the next step should be.

I don't know this, I am guessing. But I am not just guessing wildly: If they did have stronger evidence, why let them go? After months of no perpetrator, they finally have a case against someone - and then, let them go?

Only if the police had relied on some specific DNA evidence as a significant part of their investigation and then this evidence turned out to be not as strong as they had originally believed, we do not know if this is the case or not. We have no idea of the significance of any DNA evidence in this case.

We do know that the DNA in the car was not as strong as was reported.

Based on what confirmed evidence?

We don't have any. Hence, the words "To me, it looks like".

[richardm]

I don't know this, I am guessing. But I am not just guessing wildly: If they did have stronger evidence, why let them go? After months of no perpetrator, they finally have a case against someone - and then, let them go?

How "let go" are they, though? They have not left the EU - would the Portuguese authorities even need to apply for an extradition, or just ask the local plod to pick them up and pop them on a plane?

As it is their arguido status apparently means they have to report to a (Portuguese?) police station every 5 days.

[Darat]

...snip..

We do know that the DNA in the car was not as strong as was reported.

...snip...


But you seem to be thinking that the "original" report that the DNA in the car was "strong" (which by the way has variously been reported as from blood, hair, skin and saliva from the reports I've read and heard and seen) was based on something official the police had released and that the police had said it was an important part of their case.

[truethat]

I agree that the cops have more than they are letting on. I took a criminal law course once and the professor told us that in most cases the police know pretty much who did it but its all about finding the evidence to stand up in court.

The way this looks to me is that they knew right away that the parents had something to do with it but needed proof.

It does seem plausible that they accidentally did something to her. Perhaps the parents as doctors were using drugs themselves, dealing with an addiction of sorts and the child got into their stash and knowing that they could lose everything they staged this. The are doctors, its not unplausible that they would be able to handle the dead body of their child.

Another thing, them leaving her in the room alone that night. Well for all we know she was NEVER in the room. Perhaps they put the suggestion in people's minds and she was in the trunk of their car the whole time until they transfered the body to another car.


The thing for me is that the mother ran out of the room straight away screaming someone stole Madeline.

For me, as a parent, that wouldn't be the first place my mind would go if my child was missing. It would be that she had wandered off.

You have to think how it doesn't match up that they felt safe enough to leave her alone in a hotel room but then suddenly dropped into the immediate assumption that she had been kidnapped.

I just don't understand why she wouldn't have used the nanny service. Makes no sense.


And also, if this happened to me I'd be in bits with guilt. I mean as parents we all make stupid choices. I'd be absolutely gutted if one of mine led to something like this and they didn't seem to feel that guilty about it at all and resorted to blaming everyone else.

They lied about checking on her so much, I mean seriously every TEN minutes they got up and walked around the pool?

Think of that. There's a pool right outside your door and your child is missing when you come back. My immediate reaction would have been to think she walked out disoriented and slipped into the pool.

But they didn't check the pool. They said that someone kidnapped her straight off.

[CFLarsen]

How "let go" are they, though? They have not left the EU - would the Portuguese authorities even need to apply for an extradition, or just ask the local plod to pick them up and pop them on a plane?

No, they still need to be extradited. The EU is not that developed.

Yet....

As it is their arguido status apparently means they have to report to a (Portuguese?) police station every 5 days.

If so, probably not a Portuguese one.

But you seem to be thinking that the "original" report that the DNA in the car was "strong" (which by the way has variously been reported as from blood, hair, skin and saliva from the reports I've read and heard and seen) was based on something official the police had released and that the police had said it was an important part of their case.

I don't.

[Darat]

No, they still need to be extradited. The EU is not that developed.

Yet....




Er yes it is - see EU arrest warrant for more details (http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/criminal/extradition/fsj_criminal_extradition_en.htm)



I don't.

If you don't than there would be no reason for you to consider that the latest reports about exactly what the "strength" of the DNA that has been found would have any affect on the police's case against anyone - yet you did.

[Ryokan]

The Norwegian media reports tonight that the DNA in the car was not from blood, but is an 88% match to Madeleine's DNA. They've also found Madeleine's hair in the car, in an amount that suggests it's not just a few hairs dropping of clothes or other belongings that may have been in contact with her.

[idunno]

i live in portugal and was in Praia da Luz last week.
They had been there for 3 days when the baby was missing. They didnt know the country how could they bury it properly. No way!!:cool:

[CFLarsen]

Er yes it is - see EU arrest warrant for more details (http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/criminal/extradition/fsj_criminal_extradition_en.htm)

Well, well, well....

Note to self: Don't jaywalk when abroad.

Hmmm...given your own country's anti-science reluctance to revert from imperial(istic) methods (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988521.stm), has the UK agreed to fully comply with this?

If you don't than there would be no reason for you to consider that the latest reports about exactly what the "strength" of the DNA that has been found would have any affect on the police's case against anyone - yet you did.

Why not? Until the police came forward with that information, all we could do was speculate.

[Big Les]

Well, well, well....

Note to self: Don't jaywalk when abroad.

Not illegal in the UK, not sure on other EU countries.

Hmmm...given your own country's anti-science reluctance to revert from imperial(istic) methods (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988521.stm), has the UK agreed to fully comply with this?

"Anti-science" my arse. What a raging red herring. But seeing as you asked (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=y&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=eu+arrest+warrant&spell=1).

Why not? Until the police came forward with that information, all we could do was speculate.

False dichotomy.

[catbasket]

Hmmm...given your own country's anti-science reluctance to revert from imperial(istic) methods (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988521.stm)... <snip>

Hilarious Claus! We (UKians) use imperial for milk/beer, distances and speeds on roads. UK scientists however have used metric for decades.

Oooh, those anti-scientific milk or beer consumers and road-users ... they make my blood boil (in degrees Celsius, which I learned about in school in 1970 aged ten. ETA along with the rest of the metric system).


Back on topic - far too much speculation on far too little information.

[CFLarsen]

Not illegal in the UK, not sure on other EU countries.

For a Dane, the UK is not "abroad". It's "Rape, Pillage & Plunder Land". :vk:

"Anti-science" my arse. What a raging red herring.

That's one expensive red herring heading off to Planet X... (http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/)

But seeing as you asked (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&as_qdr=y&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=eu+arrest+warrant&spell=1).

Since when does a Google search constitute evidence?

False dichotomy.

Huh? How is that a false dichotomy?

Hilarious Claus! We (UKians) use imperial for milk/beer, distances and speeds on roads. UK scientists however have used metric for decades.

Goes to show who's got the brains. ;)

Oooh, those anti-scientific milk or beer consumers and road-users ... they make my blood boil (in degrees Celsius, which I learned about in school in 1970 aged ten. ETA along with the rest of the metric system).

As you should.

Back on topic - far too much speculation on far too little information.

Oh, yeah.

[LostAngeles]

Hilarious Claus! We (UKians) use imperial for milk/beer, distances and speeds on roads. UK scientists however have used metric for decades.

Oooh, those anti-scientific milk or beer consumers and road-users ... they make my blood boil (in degrees Celsius, which I learned about in school in 1970 aged ten. ETA along with the rest of the metric system).


Back on topic - far too much speculation on far too little information.

Funnily enough, so do we in the U.S. The non-scientists among us are the ones who do not use metric, although I imagine that when the scientist goes to the doctor, s/he reports his/her weight in pounds and not kilograms.

I also learned about the metric system and the Celsius scale probably around the same age as you, just 20 years later.

[SusanB-M1]

I referred earlier to the Daily Mail's article which my friend read to me. It said that:
- (as mentioned before) the family were not seen from some time in the afternoon until dinner meeting;
- that one of the friends went first to check on all(?) the children, but did not go into the McCann children's room, but just listened at the door;
- the next check was made by one of the women who looked in, but said she thought she had seen Madeline;
- the timings for these visits were noted, but I cannot remember;
- at about 9:30, Kate McCann went to check;
- there was a description of the lay-out of the place, including a high wall, the front of the house very near a large car parking area etc.
- the waiter at their table said no-one had left the table'
- the waiter said the group had consumed 15(?) bottles of wine, whereas the group said a much lower number.

I stress that all of the above come from an article in the Daily Mailof last Saturday. I am sorry that I am not able to check by looking it up on the computer.

[brodski]

For a Dane, the UK is not "abroad". It's "Rape, Pillage & Plunder Land". :vk: teh fact that you glorify rape, murder and theft and arson speaks volumes.



That's one expensive red herring heading off to Planet X... (http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/) and which part of the UK is NASA based in?

[Professor Yaffle]

I read yesterday that the British police would probably be used to question the McCanns if they refuse to return to Portugal for further questioning.

[Darat]

...snip...

That's one expensive red herring heading off to Planet X... (http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/)

...snip...


Unless we've slipped to an alternative time line - neither the Denver nor the Pasadena in question are part of the UK.

[chran]

It's not the same here, either. If you're a suspect in a missing child case, you are not (necessarily) held in custody, but you are certainly not allowed to leave the country, either.This sounded wrong to me, so I checked it out.

The court (not the police) certainly has the option of remanding (varetægtsfængsle) a suspect, but also has less invasive options.

Retsplejeloven (http://www.retsinfo.dk/_LINK_0/0&ACCN/A20060100129) (approximately similiar to the US Bill of Rights, although it doesn't have constitutional status) says:

§ 765. Er betingelserne for anvendelse af varetægtsfængsling til stede, men kan varetægtsfængslingens øjemed opnås ved mindre indgribende foranstaltninger, træffer retten, hvis sigtede samtykker heri, i stedet for varetægtsfængsling bestemmelse derom.

Stk. 2. Retten kan således bestemme, at sigtede skal
[...]
6) hos politiet deponere pas eller andre legitimationspapirer,
[...]
Paragraph 765 gives, among other options, confiscation of the accused's (not defendant's at this point) passport or other forms of identification.

The fact that this choice is mentioned separately, means to me that an accused's passport is not automatically taken away, and that he is therefore free to leave the country if he so chooses.

Of course, this is after the police has had the oppurtunity of convincing a judge of the accused's guilt, and if the judge is not convinced, maybe the police didn't do a good enough job, and the accused should be able to go where he wants.

[Gurdur]

Which ones?

Exceptions where the murderers in general are not usually relatives, or child murderers are not usually the parents?

For both, really; off-hand, Russia, Somalia, Columbia, Brazil, Guatamala, the Congo, the Dem R Congo, Zimbabwe, Liberia, Sierra Leone. All pretty much for the same reasons, too.

[Gurdur]

teh fact that you glorify rape, murder and theft and arson ...


Man, are you a party-pooper.

A nice bit of sacking and pillaging is just ever so relaxing.

[Darat]

Exceptions where the murderers in general are not usually relatives, or child murderers are not usually the parents?

For both, really; off-hand, Russia, Somalia, Columbia, Brazil, Guatamala, the Congo, the Dem R Congo, Zimbabwe, Liberia, Sierra Leone. All pretty much for the same reasons, too.

Some if not all of those are war zones or equivalent so obviously are not relevant to my point or question to you.

Any links to actual data or reports and so on?

[Gurdur]

Some if not all of those are war zones or equivalent so obviously are not relevant to my point or question to you.
Eh? I wasn't aware of a point being made -- I only answered your question as you put it and as I saw it. Perhaps if you could clarify your point, and qualify your question? Thanks.
Any links to actual data or reports and so on?
Waiting on clarification.

[Darat]

Eh? I wasn't aware of a point being made -- I only answered your question as you put it and as I saw it. Perhaps if you could clarify your point, and qualify your question? Thanks.

Waiting on clarification.


My first post was about this domestic disappearance i.e:

And to use the tools of critical thinking: Whilst it may be sad and rather unpleasant it is a fact that the chief suspects most be the parents and that a mother is the most likely one to have killed the child.

That's just using the evidence we have about who does actually kill children.

You replied again about this domestic incident:

Just while it is true that in many societies (not all) the most common killers are relatives of the victim, the McCann pair have other children -- and not ONE hint has ever been mooted of any child abuse or neglect whatsoever, AFAIK.

And I asked you (added bold):

Slightly off-topic - I've only come across figures for countries like the UK that are in the EU (oh and the USA & Canada and I'm assuming you aren't meaning child deaths in countries in a state of war?) which societies doesn't it hold for?

[Gurdur]

My first post was about this domestic disappearance:
And to use the tools of critical thinking: Whilst it may be sad and rather unpleasant it is a fact that the chief suspects most be the parents and that a mother is the most likely one to have killed the child......

You replied again about this domestic incident:
Just while it is true that in many societies (not all) the most common killers are relatives of the victim, the McCann pair have other children -- and not ONE hint has ever been mooted of any child abuse or neglect whatsoever, AFAIK.

And I asked you (added bold):....


Uh huh, I begin to see the misunderstanding here.

I'll summarize from my POV:


Your point is that in many societies the most common killers are the relatives, and here doubly the parents are the first suspects.
.
My point is that while accepting that as true, however other evidence, such as missing signs of child abuse or neglect on the other McCann children, or the amount of planning needed for cover-up, make it very unlikely that the McCanns did in fact murder their child.
.
You then asked about other societies; I took that as an off-topic general question and answered it as such, IOW my answer was also off-topic pondering, which is where the misunderstanding arises. In reply to the point you originally made, the point that I originally made and that I have reiterated here (2) still stands.

[richardm]

.
My point is that while accepting that as true, however other evidence, such as missing signs of child abuse or neglect on the other McCann children, or the amount of planning needed for cover-up, make it very unlikely that the McCanns did in fact murder their child.


In cases where children meet a violent death there has often been a pattern of abuse leading up to the death. Sometimes past abuse is not discovered until after the death. Sometimes the abuse is noted but tragically ignored. However, in a case where a death is caused accidentally you would not particularly expect to see signs of prior abuse or abuse on other children. The suggestion seems to be that Madeleine's mother accidentally caused her death by oversedating her in some way. You might well say that this is of itself abuse, but not of the type that would leave obvious physical markers.

Mind you, going from that position to hiding the body is a pretty cold-blooded step, but the thing with that sort of thing is that once you start down the route of concealment it would be easy to convince yourself that you would have to continue with it because of the severity of the fallout if you reveal what's really happened.

[Ipecac]

Well, given some of the facts we do have involve parents leaving their infant children unattended, I don't think there's any similarity at all with the Ramsey case.

Had they been any kind of responsible parents, this case wouldn't exist - not in its present form, anyway.

I'm not talking about similarities in the actual crime. I'm talking about the rampant speculation, guessing, innuendo, trial by media and rush to judgement in the absence of actual information. In that way, it's very similar to the Ramsey case.

Agreed, that the parents should not have left the kids alone.

[nightwind]

Well, my theory on this case, is that the little girl was most likely abducted by a child predator.

The mistake the parents made was in leaving her home alone. They should never have done this, and it was a critical mistake that will haunt them the rest of their lives I am sure.

The police do not really seem to be looking for any other leads, and are focusing too much on the parents.

The true perpetrator of this crime may very well get away again. We have all seen it before.

[Darat]

Well, my theory on this case, is that the little girl was most likely abducted by a child predator.


Out of curiosity where do you get the "most likely". I'm not being facetious asking I'm looking for data and I was wondering if you have some statistics that demonstrate the most likely case of abduction say on holiday or away from home is by a stranger compared to the overall "most likely" being the parents/guardians being involved.


The mistake the parents made was in leaving her home alone. They should never have done this, and it was a critical mistake that will haunt them the rest of their lives I am sure.


I agree, they were my first thoughts when I started to read about this (and of course if they didn't have anything to do with her disappearance).



The police do not really seem to be looking for any other leads, and are focusing too much on the parents.



I'm reluctant to go along with this given the Portuguese system does not allow the police to release (apparently) any details of their investigations - we really do not know what they have and are investigating.


The true perpetrator of this crime may very well get away again. We have all seen it before.

That may happen but some statistics I did find (but buggered if I can find them again to link to) indicate that most child abductions and murders are in fact solved (in the UK that is).

[dudalb]

I agree that the cops have more than they are letting on. I took a criminal law course once and the professor told us that in most cases the police know pretty much who did it but its all about finding the evidence to stand up in court..

True most of the time,as anybody who watches "Law and Order" could have told you.

.

[CFLarsen]

teh fact that you glorify rape, murder and theft and arson speaks volumes.

That you can think I am seriously glorifying rape, murder, theft and arson, says a lot more about you than it does about me.

and which part of the UK is NASA based in?

Unless we've slipped to an alternative time line - neither the Denver nor the Pasadena in question are part of the UK.

Pssst....it's the use of imperial, not the whereabouts.

This sounded wrong to me, so I checked it out.

The court (not the police) certainly has the option of remanding (varetægtsfængsle) a suspect, but also has less invasive options.

Retsplejeloven (http://www.retsinfo.dk/_LINK_0/0&ACCN/A20060100129) (approximately similiar to the US Bill of Rights, although it doesn't have constitutional status) says:

I wouldn't go that far as to compare it with the BoR. It's a basic set of laws that describes how the courts, the police and the D.A. works.

Source (in Danish) (http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retsplejeloven)

Paragraph 765 gives, among other options, confiscation of the accused's (not defendant's at this point) passport or other forms of identification.

The fact that this choice is mentioned separately, means to me that an accused's passport is not automatically taken away, and that he is therefore free to leave the country if he so chooses.

Of course, this is after the police has had the oppurtunity of convincing a judge of the accused's guilt, and if the judge is not convinced, maybe the police didn't do a good enough job, and the accused should be able to go where he wants.

Yep. The case is not strong enough to even keep the parents (or even the mother) in the country.

I read today that the Portuguese DA wants to read the mother's diary, in search of clues. That sounds to me like they are grasping for straws.

[brodski]

Pssst....it's the use of imperial, not the whereabouts.


But they wern't using Imperial units, they where using "English" units, whilst many of them have the same names, they have differnt values. And the situation is not comparable, as non metric units are sued as standard in the USA, whilst in eth UK tehy are only used for measuing Milk, Beer and for road traffic laws. Your strawman is showing.

[The Atheist]

I'm not talking about similarities in the actual crime. I'm talking about the rampant speculation, guessing, innuendo, trial by media and rush to judgement in the absence of actual information. In that way, it's very similar to the Ramsey case.

I think it happens with every high-profile murder case, especially when the perpetrator isn't caught quickly. And speculation's good - better have some now so that when someone gets arrested, the CTists will have some good ground to troll for details of an elaborate CT where the girl was captured by NATO agents to distract people from noticing the new anti-missile systems being erected in Portugal.

Well, my theory on this case, is that the little girl was most likely abducted by a child predator.

Actually, I think that's the least-likely explanation.

Statistics well and truly show that strangers are the least danger, plus predators are almost always opportunistic, and unless the girl walked out - a possibility - it's highly unlikely she would have been abducted from an hotel room. As I said before, these things are possible, but they are known to be unlikely, and lots of things make it even less likely in this case. The odd predator who does snatch kids from their beds usually sticks to ill-lit, quiet areas, not busy thoroughfares. If she was abducted, isn't it likely someone might have noticed it happening? Hotel porters, night staff, other guests walking in; all these things are going to discourage a criminal from carrying out that kind of crime in that situation.

[richardm]

The police do not really seem to be looking for any other leads, and are focusing too much on the parents.

The police spent four months looking for other leads, don't forget.

[Big Les]

For a Dane, the UK is not "abroad". It's "Rape, Pillage & Plunder Land". :vk:

Ha ha.

That's one expensive red herring heading off to Planet X... (http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric.02/)

This has been well dealt with by other posters. UK scientists have been using metric for decades, and the rest of us get along just fine using both systems where appropriate. The whole point is completely off the point anyway, which is why I called it a red herring.

Since when does a Google search constitute evidence?

Alright, how do you define by "fully comply with"? It's certainly in use (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/16/warrest116.xml), as Darat pointed out, to the point where concerns have been raised over frivolous use of it.

Huh? How is that a false dichotomy?

You said "Until the police came forward with that information, all we could do was speculate." Not true, we could have just shut up, as I wish I had done some time ago. I and many others have been suckered in by the media circus even as we rant about what a bad thing it is.

Goes to show who's got the brains. ;)

Quite.

[CFLarsen]

But they wern't using Imperial units, they where using "English" units, whilst many of them have the same names, they have differnt values. And the situation is not comparable, as non metric units are sued as standard in the USA, whilst in eth UK tehy are only used for measuing Milk, Beer and for road traffic laws. Your strawman is showing.

Ha ha.



This has been well dealt with by other posters. UK scientists have been using metric for decades, and the rest of us get along just fine using both systems where appropriate. The whole point is completely off the point anyway, which is why I called it a red herring.

Grow a sense of humour. Both of you.

Alright, how do you define by "fully comply with"?

What is it about "fully comply with" that you don't understand?

It's certainly in use (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/16/warrest116.xml), as Darat pointed out, to the point where concerns have been raised over frivolous use of it.

What does that have to do with whether the UK fully complies with it or not?

You said "Until the police came forward with that information, all we could do was speculate." Not true, we could have just shut up, as I wish I had done some time ago. I and many others have been suckered in by the media circus even as we rant about what a bad thing it is.

Of course. You're right. I was wrong. Thanks for making a very important point. :rolleyes:

Quite.

Indeed.

[Big Les]

Grow a sense of humour. Both of you.

Oh, so now it's a joke? Sorry, you can't just make "your country sucks for X reason" comments, sans smilies, and expect not to be challenged on it.

What is it about "fully comply with" that you don't understand?

What would constitute full compliance? Certain provisions not being adopted? Instances of non-compliance with reference to specific individuals? Which?

What does that have to do with whether the UK fully complies with it or not?

Well, it's been adopted, it's in use. It's your assertion that the might not be in full compliance; why don't you provide some evidence for that? I see no reason to either believe you without evidence, or to trawl the web looking for this on your behalf.

Of course. You're right. I was wrong. Thanks for making a very important point. :rolleyes:

It would be nice if you could admit as much with a modicum of sincerity.

Indeed.

Indubitably.

[CFLarsen]

Oh, so now it's a joke? Sorry, you can't just make "your country sucks for X reason" comments, sans smilies, and expect not to be challenged on it.

This, my friend, is a smiley:

:vk:

Which I used.

What would constitute full compliance? Certain provisions not being adopted? Instances of non-compliance with reference to specific individuals? Which?

Ah, you do understand what "full compliance" means.

Well, it's been adopted, it's in use. It's your assertion that the might not be in full compliance; why don't you provide some evidence for that? I see no reason to either believe you without evidence, or to trawl the web looking for this on your behalf.

Why don't you provide some evidence that I assert that it might not be in full compliance?

It would be nice if you could admit as much with a modicum of sincerity.

Yes, it was wrong of me not to acknowledge that we could have not posted on this thread. Since you did post here, it is a bit difficult to take your "sincerity" demand seriously.

[this charming man]

Just poping back in to post this link. (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22416728-2,00.html?from=mostpop)

and this one too (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22416508-2,00.html)

Not sure if these have been posted yet; I don't think they have; the stories have a 9/14/07 date.

It appears that tests show a sleeping pill OD.

[Ian Osborne]

It appears that tests show a sleeping pill OD.

If that's true, it seems to be 'game over' for the McCanns. Of course, it still leaves one key question - where's the body? Until Madeleine is found, alive or dead, I don't think we'll ever get to the bottom of what happened.

[Luciana]

Since the suspicion has been laid on the parents, I've been saying - why is it that everybody assumes that the child was accidentally killed? It was yet another unsubstantiated assumption, probably an attempt to exonerate the parents, because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

We still don't know whether it was an accident or not. What if they purposefully gave her enough sedative that she would die? What if they onlyl wanted her to sleep, but she had a reaction to the drugs? Accidents, afaik, involve unforeseen consequences . If they drugged her so she's sleep and they could go out to have fun, well, tell me if you consider that an accident?

Let's wait and see.

[Big Les]

Just poping back in to post this link. (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22416728-2,00.html?from=mostpop)

and this one too (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22416508-2,00.html)

Not sure if these have been posted yet; I don't think they have; the stories have a 9/14/07 date.

It appears that tests show a sleeping pill OD.

No, it appears that a French tabloid newspaper journalist claims (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22416728-2,00.html?from=mostpop) that tests show a sleeping pill. For all we know, he pulled this right out of his arse, like most of the other media "reports" about this case. The speculation-fest is absolutely out of control, with the press falling over each other to get the next piece of gossip masquerading as news. It's like Lady Di, the Soham murders, and "Jamie" Bulger all rolled into one. They even call the girl "Maddie" as though we can all somehow be invested and involved in the story. The parents didn't even call her that as far as I can tell.

[Darat]

Well I've heard it said that the Portuguese police haven't ruled out that aliens abducted her!

And a good source of mine - the man in the pub - said that tests had confirmed that Madeline is still alive and well but had been turned invisible by a bite from a radioactive mosquito!

[Ian Osborne]

Well I've heard it said that the Portuguese police haven't ruled out that aliens abducted her!

And a good source of mine - the man in the pub - said that tests had confirmed that Madeline is still alive and well but had been turned invisible by a bite from a radioactive mosquito!

You should write for The Onion! :D

[Big Les]

Well I've heard it said that the Portuguese police haven't ruled out that aliens abducted her!

And a good source of mine - the man in the pub - said that tests had confirmed that Madeline is still alive and well but had been turned invisible by a bite from a radioactive mosquito!

It wasn't Big Al was it? He says dogs can't look up.

[The Grave]

After all that work and international help they got. Haven't seen anything like this since Susan Smith, who claimed a "black man" took her car with the kids in it, which was later found in a lake with the kids.

Anyone interested in voting????????


http://madeleinemccann.blogspot.com/


not so clear cut is it?

[The Grave]

When did she have time to hide the body? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#Disappearance)

And where did she hide it, in the time between the disappearance, and the police search? Or 25 days after?

25 days after? Portugal, in the summertime? Either the body was stored in a freezer or was pretty ripe by then.

I dunno....

In answer to this link I have high lighted an important issue...
Disappearance

Madeleine disappeared from a ground floor apartment where the family was staying on the evening of 3 May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_3) 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007). The apartment had been rented by the holiday company Mark Warner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Warner_Ltd) for the summer season as part of its Ocean Club. The nature of the Ocean Club may have contributed to the disappearance of Madeleine since, because its buildings are spread out across the village, anyone can wander in and out of the holiday areas.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#_note-0)
Her parents reported to the police that they had taken Madeleine to their holiday apartment, at 18:00, to prepare Madeleine and her two-year-old twin siblings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibling) to bed.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#_note-1) ###Then, leaving the apartment unlocked,### they had dined with friends approximately 120 metres away at a tapas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapas) bar within the Mark Warner Ocean Summer Club.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#_note-120m) The McCanns said that they were taking turns checking on their children and that at approximately 21:05 Western European Summer Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Summer_Time) (WEST) Gerry checked on the children followed by Dr Matthew Oldfield at 21:30.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#_note-timings)At around 22:00, ###Kate returned to check on the children and found Madeleine's bed empty and the bedroom window open###.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#_note-abducted) Kate said that the police were called within 10 minutes of finding her daughter gone. The police stated that officers arrived within 10 minutes of being alerted, and an investigation unit began work within 30 minutes.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#_note-timings) According to the Portuguese police's missing person notice, the disappearance had occurred "by 22:40".[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#_note-2) Staff and guests at the complex searched until 04:30 whilst police on the Spanish border and all airports in Portugal and Spain were notified.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#_note-abducted) The Portuguese police have yet to supply a definitive timeline for the evening of Madeleine's disappearance.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Mccann#_note-3)


So how come they left the room unlocked {very irresponsible!} YET later the window was open???

Why would any self respecting burgular open a window when the door was "unlocked".


Vote:http://madeleinemccann.blogspot.com/

[fuelair]

I am still curious about that interesting 3-weeks before they rented the car that evidence was suddenly found in, the fact that the Brit lab is annoyed at the Portuguese police for wildly exaggerating the DNA evidence (or, more precisely, lack of), the Australian/French OD report not even bothered with (ergo, likely a big 0) in Brit. press. As I noted in another thread on this, I think the Portuguese police had carnal knowledge of the canine - and the case will likely never be solved because of that. We will, of course, see.

[This Guy]

I don't put much stock in it, but there has been a new development -

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/25/portugal.missing.girl.photo/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

[Undesired Walrus]

I don't put much stock in it, but there has been a new development -

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/25/portugal.missing.girl.photo/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

Not her sadly.

[tkingdoll]

Meh, the parents have hired PIs to invent sightings around the world. This will throw the heat of them and the fact that they killed their daughter, cooked her into a stew and served her to their friends for dinner that same night.

At least, that's what I think tomorrow's front page will say. We've had every other theory.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

After all that work and international help they got. Haven't seen anything like this since Susan Smith, who claimed a "black man" took her car with the kids in it, which was later found in a lake with the kids.

Are you kidding me? It happens all the time. Parents kill or kidnap child, go on TV playing sobbing and crying victims (and for good measure say it was "a black man") and launch alot of efforts to find the kid but can't answer alot of questions about where they were, what they were doing, how it happened and so on. It doesn't neccessarily mean they killed the child but it very often means they do know more than they are letting on.

I'm only surprised that it happens in Great Britain, too.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

I'm only surprised that it happens in Great Britain, too.

Certainly does - I have a dim recollection of a comedy sketch after a rash of similar cases that was along the lines of the police no longer bothering with witnesses or physical evidence, they would simply organise a press conference and arrest the first person to burst into tears.

[Big Les]

Not her sadly.

Am I being oversensitive, or is the very idea faintly racist? The basis for believing the Morrocan girl might have been her seems to have been nothing more than her being an apparently "white" fair-haired toddler in a non-European country. From this we (or at least the media) get the assumption that it must be a kidnap victim. I don't blame the Spanish holidaymakers for turning in the photo as a possible sighting, but it should have gone to the police in the first instance, not the press.

Even once that had already happened, couldn't they have sat on the "story" until it was analysed? Considering it took less than a day to not only show it wasn't the McCann girl, but to actually find the Morrocan family in question, why couldn't the "story" have been sat on in the meantime? Instead we have a family's privacy invaded and the whole mess perpetuated without a shred of further evidence.

[timhau]

Frankly, I wonder what kind of idiots think they can recognize from a distance, with one fleeting glance, a 4-year-old whom they've only seen in a couple of photos.

Of course, there is the fact that little Ms. McCann is the only kid in the world who has gone missing in the year 2007, so maybe this isn't just mass hysteria fueled by the sensationalist media and, sadly enough, the McCanns themselves.

[Big Les]

Wishful thinking, confirmation-bias riddled, public grief junkies. That's who.

[sophia8]

The odd predator who does snatch kids from their beds usually sticks to ill-lit, quiet areas, not busy thoroughfares. If she was abducted, isn't it likely someone might have noticed it happening? Hotel porters, night staff, other guests walking in; all these things are going to discourage a criminal from carrying out that kind of crime in that situation.
The place she disappeared from isn't a hotel - it's a holiday apartment with its own entrance straight onto the street. Sure, it's a well-lit street, but not especially busy at that time of night (according to reports). Who's going to notice somebody coming out of the door at night with a well-wrapped bundle and getting straight into a car?

[sophia8]

Are you kidding me? It happens all the time. Parents kill or kidnap child, go on TV playing sobbing and crying victims (and for good measure say it was "a black man") and launch alot of efforts to find the kid but can't answer alot of questions about where they were, what they were doing, how it happened and so on. It doesn't neccessarily mean they killed the child but it very often means they do know more than they are letting on.

I'm only surprised that it happens in Great Britain, too.I can't remember a single case of that happening in the UK. The nearest to that scenario that I know of is the case of Tracie Andrews (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=453764&in_page_id=1879&ICO=FEMAIL&ICL=TOPART), who went on TV claiming her boyfriend had been murdered in a "road rage" attack, when she had killed him herself. From memory, I don't think she even claimed the killer was black.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I can't remember a single case of that happening in the UK. The nearest to that scenario that I know of is the case of Tracie Andrews (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=453764&in_page_id=1879&ICO=FEMAIL&ICL=TOPART), who went on TV claiming her boyfriend had been murdered in a "road rage" attack, when she had killed him herself. From memory, I don't think she even claimed the killer was black.

I meant first class creep parents who anyone not born yesterday would consider obvious suspects playing distraught victims on TV to a guillible public when their white, blond, blue-eyed daughter goes missing or is killed in very suspicious circumstances.

The most famous case of this was the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. If you don't know, but you probably do, the parents first reported her missing to the police and produced a ransom note before her body was found in the basement, not by the police but by her father. The parents blamed it on everyone in sight and denied any involvement for years and played grieving parents to the entire country when they and their older son were the only legitimate suspects. And all the details, such as that the "ransom note" was written with the father's Sharpie, pointed to them.

The McCanns' kindred spirits.

[Luciana]

Am I being oversensitive, or is the very idea faintly racist? The basis for believing the Morrocan girl might have been her seems to have been nothing more than her being an apparently "white" fair-haired toddler in a non-European country.

I thought the same thing. A blonde girl in Morrocco... and at least two people assumed she'd be Madeleine, even though the girl looked nothing like the abducted girl, except for being fair-skinned in a African country.

[tkingdoll]

I have been told by a psychologist that the majority of missing children's cases actually turn out to have been the parents. Accidental death or covering up abuse being the two most common reason to hide a body. I have no cite for that though, so feel free to ignore or accept at will.

[Luciana]

Guilty or not, they're doing a great job of attacking the Portuguese police, thus undermining the force's credibility. Why, I wonder.

[Big Les]

Much as it does pain me to bump this for any reason, this is about as relevant (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/madeleines+parents+spooked/865847) to this place as the McCann case is going to get. If they really are looking into "mystics", I hope to god they find sites like this one.

[fagin]

Fact is nobody actually knows what happened except the perpetrator.
Evidently the parents have acted somewhat unusually, and the competence of the police seems open to question.
I thought baseless speculation was the domain of twoofers and suchlike.

[Big Les]

Fact is nobody actually knows what happened except the perpetrator.
Evidently the parents have acted somewhat unusually, and the competence of the police seems open to question.
I thought baseless speculation was the domain of twoofers and suchlike.

I agree, which is why I'm not speculating further on the case. Did you read the link? It has to do with the possible engagement of "psychics" by (as it turns out (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2007/10/01/daily-record-psychic-to-help-madeleine-search-86908-19874023/)) an extended family member. As such I thought it worth further comment.

[fuelair]

Technically, speculation is what psychologists, profilers and other such do - and is a legitimate part of solving many crimes. Of course, it helps if the speculators have sufficient data to work accurately with.

[Big Les]

This (http://www.thepsychicbarber.co.uk/) is the guy that appears to be attempting to associate himself with the case (whether or not said family member has actually solicited his help).

[fagin]

Just seems to have got a bit off topic, innocent until proven guilty etc.
I have no problem with speculation, I said baseless speculation.

[sophia8]

I meant first class creep parents who anyone not born yesterday would consider obvious suspects playing distraught victims on TV to a guillible public when their white, blond, blue-eyed daughter goes missing or is killed in very suspicious circumstances.

The most famous case of this was the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. If you don't know, but you probably do, the parents first reported her missing to the police and produced a ransom note before her body was found in the basement, not by the police but by her father. The parents blamed it on everyone in sight and denied any involvement for years and played grieving parents to the entire country when they and their older son were the only legitimate suspects. And all the details, such as that the "ransom note" was written with the father's Sharpie, pointed to them.

The McCanns' kindred spirits.
I was talking about cases in the UK. Yes, I do know about the JonBenet case - it did get mentioned a bit in the press over here. For the record, I don't think they killed their child. They were not the only suspects.

[articulett]

Patsy Ramsey recently died of ovarian cancer-- and I am very familiar with the case, and I am quite certain mom was involved-- the parents did very weird things afterwards including still planning to go on their trip later that day after the body was found! And refusing lie detector tests. I don't think that is the case with the McCann's. They stayed a long time-- I don't know if they refused polygraphs or anything of the sort, but I didn't hear anything about it. I certainly wouldn't indict them without more evidence. But I am curious about the supposed blood in the rental car. Blood? If true, that is very omninous... but I haven't heard anything yet. I'm sure follow up tests will be done. If these parents are innocent--then it's horribly wrong to accuse them. I can't imagine a worse event.

[Gnu Ordure]

Luciana said :

We still don't know whether it was an accident or not. What if they purposefully gave her enough sedative that she would die? What if they onlyl wanted her to sleep, but she had a reaction to the drugs? Accidents, afaik, involve unforeseen consequences . If they drugged her so she's sleep and they could go out to have fun, well, tell me if you consider that an accident?

Let's wait and see.


Is it just me, but do those two paragraphs contradict each other ?

then...

Guilty or not, they're doing a great job of attacking the Portuguese police, thus undermining the force's credibility.

Why, I wonder.


Well, Luciana, let's think...

Possibly because they object to being named 'official suspects' in the death of their own daughter, even though the police say they have nothing to charge them with ?

Possibly because they object to being threatened with prosecution for exercising their freedom of speech in their own country ?

Or.. possibly... yes, Luciana, possibly they really did it, and they want to discredit the police.



But you don't know.

So your insinuations are merely cruel speculation.

[Ryokan]

Patsy Ramsey recently died of ovarian cancer-- and I am very familiar with the case, and I am quite certain mom was involved.

Okay...

If these parents are innocent--then it's horribly wrong to accuse them. I can't imagine a worse event.

Wait, didn't you just do that to Patsy Ramsey?

[Darat]

...snip...- I don't know if they refused polygraphs or anything of the sort, but I didn't hear anything about it.

...snip...

I would certainly hope no one in a position of authority has even considered that they should be subjected to such pseudo-science, may as well sacrifice a cockerel and determine guilt or not by the size and shape of the liver!

[Matthew Best]

I am quite certain mom was involved-- the parents did very weird things afterwards...

Parents doing weird things after their daughter has been murdered???

Is that supposed to be damning evidence?

[sophia8]

Parents doing weird things after their daughter has been murdered???

Is that supposed to be damning evidence?Of course it is! Parents who have just found their child's murdered body should immediately go onto live TV boohooing their eyes out, screaming with grief, tearing their clothing etc.
They should not go into shock and blank the trauma out of their minds!

Seriously, anybody who claims the McCanns are guilty simply because they "seem weird" should look for a better reason than that. I believe the McCanns were actually advised by the police in the first days of the investigation to appear calm and collected in public. This was in case the child had been kidnapped for ransom; they were worried that if the parents showed public distraught, the kidnappers would feel they had the upper hand and raise any ransom.
As for the sniffer dogs finding "cadaver traces" in the car, this has already been explained - there was no rubbish collection from the McCann's apartment, so they used the car to transport bags of household rubbish, including rotting food and crappy nappies. This would have given the scent of decomposition that the dogs smelled.

[Luciana]

Luciana said :

Is it just me, but do those two paragraphs contradict each other ?

then...

No, they don't. I think people are not applying critical thinking when they say the daughter was killed "accidently", because there's no evidence any way or the other. Speculations are rampant and I gave mine, from a different perspective. Then I added that I'm not sure of anything because we have to wait and see, which means I won't defend my point staunchly, as there's a major lack of evidence going.

Possibly because they object to being named 'official suspects' in the death of their own daughter, even though the police say they have nothing to charge them with ?

And I object to their leaving small children alone. Boohoo. And there has been plenty of other fishy behavior... like when someone said "let's call the police" and the mother answered "oh, I already did", when, in fact, she had not. Or the fact that children do not normally disappear from hotel rooms. They should realize there are reasons why people and the police should be suspicious of them.

Possibly because they object to being threatened with prosecution for exercising their freedom of speech in their own country ?

What freedom of speech, in the middle of an investigation/prosecution? That's oversensitiveness, either theirs or yours.

So your insinuations are merely cruel speculation.

Very cruel. They read this forum daily.

When exactly, as a society, we became so overly worried about other people's problems and sensibilities?

[Matthew Best]

And there has been plenty of other fishy behavior... like when someone said "let's call the police" and the mother answered "oh, I already did", when, in fact, she had not.

I think I'd need to see evidence of this claim before I take it seriously.

Or the fact that children do not normally disappear from hotel rooms.

Now I'm confused - you're saying that the fact that the child disappeared from a hotel room is "fishy behaviour"? Children disappearing from anywhere is "fishy behaviour", surely?

[articulett]

Okay...



Wait, didn't you just do that to Patsy Ramsey?

I did... as I said, I know much about the case... not so much about this one. I'd be glad to back it up... but this isn't the thread, and I doubt you care.

[articulett]

[QUOTE=Matthew Best;3018342]Parents doing weird things after their daughter has been murdered???

Is that supposed to be damning evidence?[/QUOTE

No... there is much more than that...

but the thread is about this case...

And regarding lie detector tests, Darat-- most parents offer to take them or do anything they can to assist the police, because they know they are suspects and if they also know they are not guilty-- they want the police looking for their kid. People with something to hide are a little less demanding of authorities than those who want them to find someone NOW. There are enough of these kinds of cases where we can compare behaviors of people who turned out to be innocent and those who turned up guilty.

[pipelineaudio]

There are enough of these kinds of cases where we can compare behaviors of people who turned out to be innocent and those who turned up guilty.

And for the record, did the Ramseys turn out to be guilty or innocent?

[articulett]

And for the record, did the Ramseys turn out to be guilty or innocent?

They were never indicted. The grand jury thought there was enough evidence to charge one with the crime but they couldn't determine which one... and so it never went to trial. No other killer was found. Patsy died of ovarian cancer a year or so ago.

[timhau]

People with something to hide are a little less demanding of authorities than those who want them to find someone NOW. There are enough of these kinds of cases where we can compare behaviors of people who turned out to be innocent and those who turned up guilty.

Is there really such thing as 'innocent behavior' and 'guilty behavior'? I doubt we can tell those two apart, at least when we're dealing with strangers.

[fagin]

News today the detective heading the case in Portugal has been removed, apparently for having a go at the UK police. He says their investigation is being manipulated by the McCanns.
The report also mentioned that he was being investigated for mishandling another missing child case, one in which the mother was jailed, and later released. She alleges that she was made a suspect after other leads in the case dried up and was threatened by the police.
Interesting parallels.

[Professor Yaffle]

An alternative take on that other case (I'm not necessarily supporting one account or another, just pointing out that the tabloids like to be very one sided in things like this).

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2007/07/truth-about-leonor-cipriano-mother-of.html

And from a blog on the Telegraph site:

Leonor Cipriano and her brother, who had a incestuous relationship, were both sentenced to 16 years in jail, after appealing to Portuguese Supreme Court, for the murder of Joana Cipriano. Her body never appeared, but blood found inside the family’s refrigerator and the confession of Joana’s uncle were sufficient to convince the jury. Her case has been referred, by the British Media, in what seems to be an attempt to discredit Portuguese Police, comparing it with Madeleine’s case.

Cipriano, who never confessed the crime, accused five CID officers of beating her. Later, she was not able to identify none of the five officers, when she was taken to a police line-up, behind a two-way mirror. The Public Prosecutor’s Office decide to charge the five CID officers ASFIC, the CID inspectors union filled a formal complaint against the Public Prosecutor's magistrate, because he didn’t included in the case's dossier the results of the police line up.


http://my.telegraph.co.uk/__users/9622/

[Professor Yaffle]

News today the detective heading the case in Portugal has been removed, apparently for having a go at the UK police. He says their investigation is being manipulated by the McCanns.
The report also mentioned that he was being investigated for mishandling another missing child case, one in which the mother was jailed, and later released. She alleges that she was made a suspect after other leads in the case dried up and was threatened by the police.
Interesting parallels.

Was she released? Has there been an appeal that I missed?

[Southwind17]

I didn't realize a thread was running regarding the McCanns until now. Having skim read the posts it's interesting to see the amount of speculation posted supporting the possibility, and probability, in cases, of the McCanns' involvement, especially after they were named as suspects. It actually reads like a typical CT storyline.

I assume most posters are sceptics, generally. How do we account for this seemingly anomalous behaviour?

[Ian Osborne]

I didn't realize a thread was running regarding the McCanns until now. Having skim read the posts it's interesting to see the amount of speculation posted supporting the possibility, and probability, in cases, of the McCanns' involvement, especially after they were named as suspects. It actually reads like a typical CT storyline.

I assume most posters are sceptics, generally. How do we account for this seemingly anomalous behaviour?

Over-speculation may well be a problem here, but it's nothing like a 'typical CT storyline'. In this case there's a genuine mystery to solve, unlike most conspiracy theories, which offer irrational explanations for things which have already been rationally explained.

[Professor Yaffle]

This is strange. The tabloids have it that Joana's stepfather has been saying that his wife was framed (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007411009,00.html), but at the time (as far as I can find out), he testified for the prosecution saying that his wife had confessed to him about her incestuous relationship with her brother and about killing her daughter (http://portugalresident.com/portugalresident/showstory.asp?ID=10046). Very Odd.

[fagin]

Just seems to have got a bit off topic, innocent until proven guilty etc.
I have no problem with speculation, I said baseless speculation.

I have mentioned this.

[Southwind17]

Over-speculation may well be a problem here, but it's nothing like a 'typical CT storyline'. In this case there's a genuine mystery to solve, unlike most conspiracy theories, which offer irrational explanations for things which have already been rationally explained.

I don't think I can agree with this. Don't many CTs arise before the 'rational' explanation emerges? To my mind over-speculation in one direction and CT are the same thing, for all intents and purposes. Broadly speaking, they both amount to leaning towards an explanation different from the 'official story' in the absence of sufficient supporting evidence.

[fagin]

Reply to Prof Yaffle

Sorry I was sure I had read she had been released.
Presumably I read that lawyers were trying to get her released.
(See how hard it is to rely on memory) Seems like there are some problems with the case though.

Daily Mail 8/8/7

"Portugal's Ministerio Publico said at the time it had charged three police officers with torture, a fourth with omission of evidence and a fifth with falsification of documents. It did not reveal who had been charged with which offence. "

[Professor Yaffle]

They are appealing - on the grounds that the videotaped confession by the uncle was entered into evidence even though the couple were exercising their right to silence in the trial - as far as I can tell.

[timhau]

I don't think I can agree with this. Don't many CTs arise before the 'rational' explanation emerges? To my mind over-speculation in one direction and CT are the same thing, for all intents and purposes.

It's true that CTs (or seeds of CTs) often come before the rational explanation. The difference between normal speculator and CTist is that when the rational explanation is available, the normal speculator says "Ah, so that's how it happened", whereas the CTist yells "Coverup! Inside job!".

[Southwind17]

It's true that CTs (or seeds of CTs) often come before the rational explanation. The difference between normal speculator and CTist is that when the rational explanation is available, the normal speculator says "Ah, so that's how it happened", whereas the CTist yells "Coverup! Inside job!".

OK, I see the difference now. I'm still suprised at the close-mindedness of much of the speculation, though.

[fagin]

Emotional arguments are often not rational.

[Southwind17]

Emotional arguments are often not rational.

so not the mark of a critical thinker or true sceptic then, presumably.

[Carnivore]

Patsy Ramsey recently died of ovarian cancer-- and I am very familiar with the case, and I am quite certain mom was involved-- the parents did very weird things afterwards including still planning to go on their trip later that day after the body was found! And refusing lie detector tests. I don't think that is the case with the McCann's. They stayed a long time-- I don't know if they refused polygraphs or anything of the sort, but I didn't hear anything about it. I certainly wouldn't indict them without more evidence. But I am curious about the supposed blood in the rental car. Blood? If true, that is very omninous... but I haven't heard anything yet. I'm sure follow up tests will be done. If these parents are innocent--then it's horribly wrong to accuse them. I can't imagine a worse event.

The Ramseys didnt refuse to take a lie detector test. They were advised by their lawyers not to take a polygraph exam, because their lawyers were well aware that there was no such thing as a lie detector. Polygraph exams are inadmissible as evidence in court because they are often wildly inaccurate.

A polygraph result is not pass/fail, it has to be interpreted by the operator in the context of the interview. This is not only subjective, but based on the assumption that the operator can know the exact relationship between the subject's psychology and physiology.

It is very common for the parents of murdered children to have "false positive" reactions to a polygraph exam when asked if they are involved in their child's death. Subconscious guilt at failing to protect their child spoofs the machine.

On the other hand, practiced liars, sociopaths and people who believe that their crimes were justified often pass polygraphs with flying colours. Given time to prepare and minimal research almost anyone can fool the box.

The polygraph's main value to law enforcement is as an interrogation tool. It allows the interrogator to fool the subject into thinking that the interrogator can know the veracity of the subjects responses, hopefully encouraging the suspect to confess.

There is a possibly apocryphal story about a pair of Baltimore homicide detectives rigging a "lie detector" out of a metal pasta strainer, a cable and a photocopier. The strainer was placed on the subject's head and connected to the photocopier, which had been loaded with 3 pre printed sheets of paper. The first two said "True", the last said "Lie". The detectives asked the subject his name, then pressed the copy button. True. Then they asked his address. True. Finally they asked if he killed Bob in a dark alley last night. He denied it. The copy button was pressed, and the machine calls him a liar. He confessed. :)

As it happens, the Ramseys did take a polygraph exam in 2000 which they passed. Doesnt really shed any light on their case.

You mention John Ramsey's desire to continue his family's "trip" as suspicious. As I understand it, while JonBenet was missing, John Ramsey called his pilot friend Mike Archuleta who was due to fly John's eldest son and daughter (and her fiance) from Minneapolis to the Ramsey vacation home. John asked Mike to bring them to Denver instead. Some hours after the body was discovered, the police overheard John on the phone making arrangements for his family to stay with their relatives in Georgia. This was viewed in some quarters as evidence he was "trying to leave town" rather than as a distraught father seeking comfort for his family. In fact the police actually asked the Ramseys to leave the house later that day, and they stayed with friends in Boulder.

I freely admit I have not much knowledge of this case, and will gladly be corrected on any point you have knowledge of.

The hostility between the Ramseys and the Boulder PD developed very quickly. The Ramseys and their lawyers felt that the lead investigators (inexperienced in homicide cases) were assuming almost from the get go that the Ramseys were guilty and in the absence of an obvious outside suspect were only interested in trying to build a case against them.

The investigation melted down in extreme acrimony between the Boulder PD, the DA's office and the media.

The lead detective, Sergeant Larry Mason was removed from the case very early on by Commander of Detectives John Eller for supposedly leaking information. Two more detectives were removed from the case in the next five months. Eller was later replaced by Commander Mark Beckner. Shortly after that, Police Chief Tom Koby resigned following a vote of no confidence from the police union.

They were never indicted. The grand jury thought there was enough evidence to charge one with the crime but they couldn't determine which one... and so it never went to trial. No other killer was found. Patsy died of ovarian cancer a year or so ago.


After the grand jury was impanelled but before it began hearing evidence, Detective Steve Thomas resigned from the Boulder PD on the grounds of interference from the DA's office. He strongly believed the Ramseys should have been charged with murder.

During the Grand Jury hearing, legendary Colorado investigator Lou Smit, who had been hired by DA Alex Hunter to conduct an overview of the BPD's case resigned, stating:

"I cannot in good conscience be a part of the persecution of innocent people. It would be highly improper and unethical for me to stay when I so strongly believe this."

The grand jury found insufficient evidence to indict anyone.

The physical evidence in the Ramsey case at least raises the strong possibility of an outside party being involved. Smit noted some odd regular marks on JonBenets body which were identified by Arapahoe County Coroner Michael Doberson as stun gun marks. Smit was able to find a close match between the marks on JonBenet's body to the "Air Taser" brand of stun gun. The duct tape and cord used to bind her were apparently brought from outside the house.

DNA found on JonBenets body (under her fingernails and inside her panties) did not come from the Ramseys. A pubic hair of unknown origin was discovered on the blanket she was partially wrapped in.

Former FBI agent John Douglas,one of the authors of the authoratative Crime Classification Manual, pioneer of psychological profiling (and model for many profilers in popular fiction), former commander of the FBI Investigative Support Unit which is instrumental in the capture of the majority of American serial killers, was asked to examine the case by the Ramseys' lawyers in the early stages of the investigation.

Douglas examined the forensic evidence and crime scene analysis and conducted interviews with the Ramseys and with the investigating officers. He also made his own analysis of the behavioural evidence the killer left at the crime scene.

His conclusion was that the Ramseys almost certainly did not kill JonBenet, together or separately. Douglas believes that the evidence points squarely at an intruder entering the Ramsey home - one that was familiar with the house and the Ramsey family.

Some of the points that had been viewed as incriminating to the Ramseys he views as exculpatory. For example the fact that the body was found by JonBenets father. Usually if someone has murdered a close family member they will go to great lengths to not "discover" the body themselves. Likewise if they had "staged" a crime scene it would be extremely unusual for the killer to wait several hours in the presence of police without taking action to ensure the body was found. In the Ramsey case, the house had been searched by police, but a family friend suggested to John Ramsey that they search the basement again simply to occupy his mind.

In Douglas' book "The cases that haunt us" he includes a chapter on the JonBenet Ramsey case. In it he makes the point that there is no such thing as a "proper" response to a family member being murdered, and families of victims respond in a multitude of different ways. He notes the false allegatations levelled at Charles Lindbergh when his baby son was kidnapped. People felt Lindbergh was simply too stoic, calm and clear thinking during the time his son was missing and there was public speculation that he was involved in the crime. He further quotes some of the many family members of crime victims he has worked with over the years. These people confirm the wide range of reactions different people and personality types experience.

Douglas states categorically that in his professional opinion nothing in the Ramsey family's response to JonBenet's murder is inconsistent with genuine grief or in any way indicative of guilt.

I'll reiterate, I dont know much at all about this case beyond readily available public sources and if you have personal knowledge of the case I will be very glad to hear it.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

For the record, I don't think they killed their child. They were not the only suspects.

Oh yeah, John Mark Karr, the only man on the planet who thought he killed Jon Benet Ramsey!

Not to sound harsh but since the parents crying on TV so often turn out to have been the perpetrators (or at least have been hiding some inconveniant truths from the police), and it just happens so many times in these cases, I'm a little skeptical of parents like the McCanns.

Enspecially if they left three toddlers all alone in a hotel room when one of them went missing and traces of blood are in their car.

At the least, they have very poor judgement. When I was ten years old, I wouldn't have left three toddlers alone for a minute.

[Gnu Ordure]

I think people are not applying critical thinking when they say the daughter was killed "accidently", because there's no evidence any way or the other. Speculations are rampant and I gave mine, from a different perspective.

Well, exactly, Luciana.

And while it's true that there's no evidence that Madeleine was killed accidentally or deliberately...

... there isn't actually any evidence that she's dead.

So your speculation is doubly offensive.

What freedom of speech, in the middle of an investigation/prosecution? That's oversensitiveness, either theirs or yours.


In case you hadn't noticed, the McCanns have been conducting a public campaign, including appeals for information around the world, in order to rescue their daughter.

The Portuguese police say they must now stop that, or risk prosecution under their laws. The McCanns, unsurprisingly, regard that as unfair.

I wouldn't call that 'oversensitive'.

[timhau]

Well, exactly, Luciana.

And while it's true that there's no evidence that Madeleine was killed accidentally or deliberately...

... there isn't actually any evidence that she's dead.

There also isn't any evidence that she's alive. Given that she's 4 years old, she hasn't been seen in months, and no ransom demands or the like have been made, dead seems IMO like a reasonable assumption.

In case you hadn't noticed, the McCanns have been conducting a public campaign, including appeals for information around the world, in order to rescue their daughter.

...or, from the POV of the Portuguese police, they have been meddling with the investigation, either because of a desperate need to do something or for more sinister reasons. We just don't know.

[William Parcher]

Enter the woo...

'I know where Madeleine is buried' says body finder hired by McCanns. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=486196&in_page_id=1770)

Cutting-edge technology...South African scientist, and former police detective...90 per cent success rate in tracing missing people...a genius...DNA tracking device...using DNA and complex and secret science techniques...quantum physics and global positioning technology to pin-point a body on a map...Madeleine was buried on the beach in Praia da Luz soon after her death...yet another astonishing mistake, it is alleged that Portuguese police never bothered to dig at the spot.

[sophia8]

Enter the woo...

'I know where Madeleine is buried' says body finder hired by McCanns. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=486196&in_page_id=1770)Oh yes, it's our old friend Danie Krugel (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62371) again.

[Blue Wode]

Ben Goldacre’s on to this latest development over at Bad Science:


Danie Krugel is an ex-policeman in South Africa who believes he can pinpoint the location of missing people on a map anywhere in the world, using his special magic box, which works by something to do with “quantum physics”, a secret energy source which nobody is allowed to know, and a strand of the missing person’s hair.

Today he is featured in a completely serious news story in the Observer about the hunt for Madeleine McCann. In the Observer, this man’s work becomes a story about how “forensic DNA tests” by Krugel have revealed traces of Madeleine’s body on a resort beach. This is a serious, factual news story in the Observer, and I’ve reposted it below, because as we know news stories like this can sometimes disappear from the Observer archives without trace.

I’m busy, and you’re as capable as I am of reading about Krugel’s work. This level of misreporting is beneath contempt. In a story which already represented an all time low in British journalism, the thought of a reputable UK newspaper presenting this magic quantum box tomfoolery as serious DNA evidence for that missing girl leaves me feeling feelings, and that’s very unusual for badscience related stuff. Or maybe he’s onto something, in which case I’d really like the Observer to run me through the evidence on his magic quantum box.

Lots more…

http://www.badscience.net/?p=544#more-544




ETA -

Also blogged here
http://badchemist.net/?p=25

and here
http://www.sciencepunk.com/v5/2007/10/maddie-pseudoscience-and-the-vultures-of-grief/

[William Parcher]

Krugel has a built-in excuse if he doesn't actually locate a missing person.

Krugel claimed to reveal Madeleine’s body had either been temporarily buried or was still beneath the beach at Praia da Luz

‘He clearly identified an area of the beach where Madeleine may have passed through or was buried,’ a close friend of the McCanns said yesterday.

Would that include playing on that beach before she went missing?

The former South African detective has an amazing 90 per cent success rate in tracing missing people.

Success in finding the person, or where they supposedly were (passed through)?

“I’m convinced Madeleine’s body is in Praia Da Luz.”

Then why say it may have only been there temporarily?

“After I conducted my investigation I gave the police a map pinpointing the spot I think Madeleine is. And I handed over a 2,000 word report on what they should do next.


Does it take more than one page to say, "Dig where I put the X on this map"?

“Too much time has been wasted accusing Kate and Gerry and not enough has been spent searching for Madeleine and following up on leads.”

The McCanns may know damn well that his device won't find the girl. It could be imagined that Krugel is only the latest spokesperson to support their innocence. The theme running through Krugel's various quotes is that the cops are fools for not digging where he said the body is located. This counts as another proposed example of their blind dysfunction. If the cops continue to refuse to dig up that spot, then the McCanns can say that they wantonly ignore good leads. If they are innocent and are trying to find ways to locate their girl - they have hired a fraud to do it. No matter what the actual truth is, two British doctors have hired a scam artist to find their missing daughter.

“The Portuguese police took my findings seriously at first, but now the work seems to have stopped. In the short time I have had with Kate and Gerry it is clear they are really concerned that the search for Madeleine is getting put to one side because of rumour and speculation. To them, all that matters is that the search for their daughter should go on day and night.”

Yep, he is a spokesperson for their innocence. No guilty person would want to hire a guy that will find the body.

[Azrael 5]

Of course it is! Parents who have just found their child's murdered body should immediately go onto live TV boohooing their eyes out, screaming with grief, tearing their clothing etc.
They should not go into shock and blank the trauma out of their minds!

Seriously, anybody who claims the McCanns are guilty simply because they "seem weird" should look for a better reason than that. I believe the McCanns were actually advised by the police in the first days of the investigation to appear calm and collected in public. This was in case the child had been kidnapped for ransom; they were worried that if the parents showed public distraught, the kidnappers would feel they had the upper hand and raise any ransom.
As for the sniffer dogs finding "cadaver traces" in the car, this has already been explained - there was no rubbish collection from the McCann's apartment, so they used the car to transport bags of household rubbish, including rotting food and crappy nappies. This would have given the scent of decomposition that the dogs smelled.


What they don't have bins in Portugal? It's a lot more than "seeming weird" believe me. Cadaver dogs that can't distinguish smell of death from rotting rubbish?!
Contradicting statements,lies,cover ups.PR spin and lots more.And you are believing it! :rolleyes:

[Ryokan]

What they don't have bins in Portugal? It's a lot more than "seeming weird" believe me. Cadaver dogs that can't distinguish smell of death from rotting rubbish?!
Contradicting statements,lies,cover ups.PR spin and lots more.And you are believing it! :rolleyes:

Evidence of lies and cover-ups?

Didn't think so.

[Azrael 5]

Evidence of lies and cover-ups?

Didn't think so.

Did I say cover up?

Evidence of PR spin? Lots of it.What could be construed as lies.

Body fluids in car="Nappies!" What Madeleines nappy? They kept as souveneir? DNA wouldn't match the other children.

Cadaver dogs smell death on car ="We took rubbish and rotting food to dump" Loose in back of car?! Residents in holiday resorts regularly take their own rubbish to the dump.
Cadaver dogs smelt death on Kate McCanns clothes="Im a GP and I certify death" What? You work one day a week in a local practice.How many dead bodies could there be? Do you hug them all? Do you come on holiday in your work clothes?
Smell of death on cuddle cat toy="I took it to work with me" How hygenic take child's toy to work AND take it to certify dead bodies.

I could go on with the fantistical claims. I have been studying this case form the off Ryokan,and the McCanns get more ridiculous with every statement they make to contradict findings.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Did I say cover up?

Yes.

Post 236:

"Contradicting statements,lies,cover ups.PR spin and lots more."

[sophia8]

What they don't have bins in Portugal? It's a lot more than "seeming weird" believe me. Cadaver dogs that can't distinguish smell of death from rotting rubbish?!
Contradicting statements,lies,cover ups.PR spin and lots more.And you are believing it! :rolleyes:There is no such thing as a "smell of death". Cadaver dogs are trained to detect the smell of decomposition. I haven't tested it out, but I would think that rotting human flesh smells exactly the same as, say, rotting pork.
Why have you got it in for the McCanns? How about you tell us your ideas of how and why they killed the child, how they got rid of the body, how they cleaned up all forensic traces and so on. Without bringing up subjective so-called evidence like "their behaviour was weird", "they're publicity-hounds", "they're trying to look innocent" etc.

[sophia8]

Krugel has a built-in excuse if he doesn't actually locate a missing person.

Krugel claimed to reveal Madeleine’s body had either been temporarily buried or was still beneath the beach at Praia da Luz

‘He clearly identified an area of the beach where Madeleine may have passed through or was buried,’ a close friend of the McCanns said yesterday.
So why didn't he identify all the other places where the body had "passed though"? Like the route it took when it was being carried to the beach? How about all the places she had "passed through" while she was alive?
And why can't he pinpoint where the body is now?
I damm well hope this scam artist wasn't paid for this out of the search fund.

[William Parcher]

There is no such thing as a "smell of death". Cadaver dogs are trained to detect the smell of decomposition. I haven't tested it out, but I would think that rotting human flesh smells exactly the same as, say, rotting pork.

This is not true. Cadaver dogs are trained to detect cadaverine, which comes from decomposing human flesh. Cadaverine will not be detected from rotting pork because it isn't there.

And why can't he pinpoint where the body is now?

He says he has done this, but that the cops won't dig up the spot he designated on the beach.

[richardm]

cadaverine, which comes from decomposing human flesh. Cadaverine will not be detected from rotting pork because it isn't there.

Are you sure about that? I was of the impression that it was a byproduct of rotting flesh full stop.

[Azrael 5]

There is no such thing as a "smell of death". Cadaver dogs are trained to detect the smell of decomposition. I haven't tested it out, but I would think that rotting human flesh smells exactly the same as, say, rotting pork.
Why have you got it in for the McCanns? How about you tell us your ideas of how and why they killed the child, how they got rid of the body, how they cleaned up all forensic traces and so on. Without bringing up subjective so-called evidence like "their behaviour was weird", "they're publicity-hounds", "they're trying to look innocent" etc.

Bolding mine:Because they have shown no concern for their daughter or her siblings.Literally from the night of the "abduction". They thought it better to go out and leave three small children alone repeatedly.

My theory on the death is sedatives,an overdose of or accident as a result of.How they got rid of forensics? Letting numerous people trample through the apartment on the night of May 3rd.I don't think the McCanns personally moved the body but friends did,others in the party.

There is so much contradiction in statements,the timeline of events.Five months later we have the McCanns talking about "Ive jsut remembered,the door was open and I thought Maddie was in another room" or "I feel sure the abducter was in the room hiding" etc.

The cover up I belive is amongst the the McCanns and two of their friends O' Brien and Jane Tanner.After all it was her who-it seems-lied about seeing a man carrying a child(she only remembered it initially after some weeks!). O 'Brien was missing a lot of the evening and there are incostincies in his statement also. Have you actually folowed this case?

Cadaver dogs:
http://dogs.about.com/cs/searchandrescue/a/cadaver_dogs.htm
Cadaver dogs are used to search, rather than standard Search and Rescue dogs. Why? Because a Search and Rescue Dog is trained to find living humans, and not detect decomposing flesh.

Cadaver Dogs are trained to locate and follow the scent of decomposing human flesh

[E.J.Armstrong]

Bolding mine:Because they have shown no concern for their daughter or her siblings.Literally from the night of the "abduction". They thought it better to go out and leave three small children alone repeatedly.

My theory on the death is sedatives,an overdose of or accident as a result of.How they got rid of forensics? Letting numerous people trample through the apartment on the night of May 3rd.I don't think the McCanns personally moved the body but friends did,others in the party.

There is so much contradiction in statements,the timeline of events.Five months later we have the McCanns talking about "Ive jsut remembered,the door was open and I thought Maddie was in another room" or "I feel sure the abducter was in the room hiding" etc.

The cover up I belive is amongst the the McCanns and two of their friends O' Brien and Jane Tanner.After all it was her who-it seems-lied about seeing a man carrying a child(she only remembered it initially after some weeks!). O 'Brien was missing a lot of the evening and there are incostincies in his statement also. Have you actually folowed this case?

Cadaver dogs:
http://dogs.about.com/cs/searchandrescue/a/cadaver_dogs.htm

If it was a sedative then there is no need for the blood that is being talked about is there?
And the incredible wandering body was where exactly during all this time?
What inconsistencies in O'Briens statement?
What evidence is there that Tanner lied?
What exactly was O'Brien doing when he was missing?
When did the child die and how does that coincide with the other timing evidence you cite?
Who exactly moved the body?

Naturally when you have a traumatic episode you have a photographic memory of every single second and never remember anything later. I look forwards to an insurance company using that argument with you when it merely affects your garage. Good luck.

[E.J.Armstrong]

This is not true. Cadaver dogs are trained to detect cadaverine, which comes from decomposing human flesh. Cadaverine will not be detected from rotting pork because it isn't there. This is not true. Cadaverine comes from the decomposition of lysine which is present in pig flesh and many other places.

[Azrael 5]

If it was a sedative then there is no need for the blood that is being talked about is there?
Yes,if child "woke" and fell and bled. Not sure blood is being talked about.Blood in apartment was said to be a males at one point.Any other blood I don't recall.
And the incredible wandering body was where exactly during all this time?
During what time?
What inconsistencies in O'Briens statement?
He claimed he was changing bed sheets of his vomiting child.Housemaids confirmed no request for clean linen was requested and no dirty sheets were left for washing.
What evidence is there that Tanner lied?
She claimed to have seen a man carrying a child in pyjamas at a specific time leaving apartment block.A witness at the place mentioned at same time who saw Tanner pass(talking to Gerry M)has said this was impossible,as he would have seen said man.
What exactly was O'Brien doing when he was missing?
No one knows,see answer above as to what he wassupposedly doing. Either way,would he leave a vomiting child and go back to the dinner table?
When did the child die and how does that coincide with the other timing evidence you cite?
That is the milion dollar question.
Who exactly moved the body?
My money's on O'Brien.

Naturally when you have a traumatic episode you have a photographic memory of every single second and never remember anything later. I look forwards to an insurance company using that argument with you when it merely affects your garage. Good luck.

They have only remembered things later when presented with disrepencies in their statements.Even then the timeline of May 3rd doesn't fit with the new story.
I'm not posting 5 months worth of statements and contradictions,the info is out there go find it.These aren't my claims,they are the McCanns.

Ladies and Gentlemen I give you teh devestated parents:
http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=610x.4d0.jpg

[William Parcher]

This is not true. Cadaverine comes from the decomposition of lysine which is present in pig flesh and many other places.

References seem to conflict on what the dogs are zeroing in on. There seems to be a connection to cadaverine and specifically targeting human remains.

These dogs are used to search landfills for human remains. Rotting pork is likely to be there as well. (http://www.cadaverdog.com/searches/CADAVER/landfill_search.htm)

[Ian Osborne]

These dogs are used to search landfills for human remains. Rotting pork is likely to be there as well. (http://www.cadaverdog.com/searches/CADAVER/landfill_search.htm)

Yes, but usually cooked, or at least processed. Would that make a difference?

[William Parcher]

I don't know. But then you could go back to the scenario of the McCann's rental car, and the suggestion that the dog only found typical trash scents (cooked meat). So the reason the dog reacted to the car boot was because the McCanns were tossing out raw meat? OK, maybe they did. Do other people do this too? OK, if the answer is yes, we then have landfills that contain rotting raw meats.