Bill Allows Illegal Aliens To Get Drivers' Licenses

[schplurg]

Bill Allows Illegal Aliens To Get Drivers' Licenses (http://fox40.trb.com/news/ktxl-090203driverslicense,0,6207551.story?coll=ktxl-news-1)

Oh excuse me, I meant to say "Undocumented Immigrants". This one's a doozy!!!
Davis has vetoed two similar bills since he became governor, citing law enforcement's concerns about the legislation. After he vetoed the bill last year, the Legislature's Latino caucus refused to endorse him for re-election.

Last month, at an anti-recall rally in Los Angeles, the governor said he would sign the latest bill "in a heartbeat" if it reached his desk.

Aides said he wanted to sign the bill all along...
Aaaah yes of course he did! Don't you just love it?

Then there's this tid-bit:
"Why is he willing to put the state at risk, the country at risk, the electorate at risk? It's his last grasp at keeping the governorship," said Assemblyman Dennis Mountjoy, R-Monrovia, who claimed the bill would "open the road" to a movement to reclaim parts of the southwestern United States for Mexico.
Reclaim the who? What the...? So we give the Southwest to Mexico, the Indians the plains, the Chinese can have the railroads that they built, and....uh...sorry, off the subject but I couldn't let that go.
But Democrats said up to 2 million illegal immigrants are driving without proper licenses already and that someone who wants to obtain a fake drivers' license can get one now on big-city street corners.

Cedillo's bill, they said, would improve public safety by helping ensure that all drivers pass a driving exam and have insurance.
Why would they do that if they're already getting away with it?!! Shouldn't they be arrested at the Department of Motor Vehicles as soon as they show up if they're breaking the law? Isn't this how they supposedly catch deadbeat dads? Maybe this is a sting operation...yeah I wish. ARGGGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"If an individual is here in the country illegally, law enforcement has no means of identifying that person," he said. "But if the bill passes we'll have a database on persons who currently cannot otherwise be tracked."
Yeah, like even a stupid criminal is gonna fall for that one! Give me a break! Let's give them a "I'm a criminal" I.D. instead of just arresting them now at the DMV when they apply. Shouldn't criminals be arrested rather than tracked? How stupid can this get? What the hell is happening to my state? Esto está loco!

Davis is as spineless and transparent as they come. As most know, illegals have become a huge problem for California and our neighboring states. I'm attempting to remain open-minded about this and I await enlightenment from JREF-ers. As far as I'm concerned, if Californians have to bend over any further, we're gonna pull our collective hamstrings.

******
P.S. Due to my horrendous internet service over the past month, I have been unable to participate in a few threads that I started. I'm not trying to be a troll...though I may be one anyways heh. Hopefully I'll be around for this one.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by schplurg
...said Assemblyman Dennis Mountjoy, R-Monrovia, who claimed the bill would "open the road" to a movement to reclaim parts of the southwestern United States for Mexico. I don't know if this is not just demagoguery but the scuttlebutt is that there is an active plan for Mexico by Mexico to at least have control of state politics by having a majority. Mexico recently voted to allow their citizens to have duel citizenship.

For the record, hispanic leaders say this is just race baiting and playing on the fears of whites.

[Tmy]

Reclaim parts of the soutwest to Mexico??? Thats regoddamndicolus.

Jose Cristo its just a drivers license. I think the problem they wantto fix is illegals talking off from the scene of every fender bender cause they dont have a license.

[Shinytop]

In California a drivers license is all you have to have to vote. Ain't that something. We are now going to let illegals determine how California votes which means they may well decide who is President considering the number of electoral votes California has. Seems the SCOTUS ought to be able to do something about California's lack of control over who votes in national elections.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Tmy
Reclaim parts of the soutwest to Mexico??? Thats regoddamndicolus.

Jose Cristo its just a drivers license. I think the problem they wantto fix is illegals talking off from the scene of every fender bender cause they dont have a license.

So they now have a license and they will tick around because .....

Why would having a license (which can be revoked, presumably) cause them to not continue to engage in criminal behavior?

[Silicon]

I don't expect that this will be a popular law.

But it makes sense from a public safety point of view.

Kinda like needle-exchange. In a perfect world, you wouldn't need it.




BTW, it's not California's job to round up illegal immigrants. It's ...

BUSH AND ASHCROFT'S JOB!

There. Thought I'd just put out that partisan rant, as a pre-emptive strike.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Shinytop
In California a drivers license is all you have to have to vote. Ain't that something. We are now going to let illegals determine how California votes which means they may well decide who is President considering the number of electoral votes California has. Seems the SCOTUS ought to be able to do something about California's lack of control over who votes in national elections.

That's not true, you have to be a citizen to vote regardless if you have a driver license or not.

[SRW]

Originally posted by Tmy
Reclaim parts of the soutwest to Mexico??? Thats regoddamndicolus.

Jose Cristo its just a drivers license. I think the problem they wantto fix is illegals talking off from the scene of every fender bender cause they dont have a license.

Oh yes if they have driver licenses they will be so much more responsible. They will wait around for the cops, oh yeah that will happen.

Although the majority of illegals in CA are good people, you cannot get past the fact that they are law breakers. And will do anything to avoid the authorities.

[Silicon]

That's true. I have non-citizen friends (legal!) who have drivers licenses. They cannot vote.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by SRW


Oh yes if they have driver licenses they will be so much more responsible. They will wait around for the cops, oh yeah that will happen.

Although the majority of illegals in CA are good people, you cannot get past the fact that they are law breakers. And will do anything to avoid the authorities.

While I do not agree with allowing illegal immigrants to stay in the US, I don't think statements like "they will do anything to stay here since they are already breaking the law" make sense either. By that logic people who hire illegals are even worse since not only are they breaking the law, but they are also providing illegals with means to live on.

[Silicon]

Gee, why would I even wait around for the cops?!!? Why does anyone?


Since it's only a misdemenor to flee from an accident. (WTF?!!)


Honestly, I've seen tons of people run from accident scenes. Now I carry an instant camera in my car. SMILE! CLICK!


But a *real* driver's license does a lot of things other than driving. It's legal ID for cashing checks, it proves residence for a period of time (in the case of amnesties), it gives the drivers the ability to get insurance, it opens up new work opportunities, and it makes drivers pass a certain level of proficiency.

If the illegal immigrant wants the benefits of a license, they have a carrot to learn to drive better. That benefits public safety. They have something useful that can get revoked if they get pulled over doing something wrong. That also benefits public safety.


I said that this wouldn't be a popular law. But I look at it like needle exchange. Uneeded in a perfect world.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Silicon
Gee, why would I even wait around for the cops?!!? Why does anyone?


Since it's only a misdemenor to flee from an accident. (WTF?!!)


Honestly, I've seen tons of people run from accident scenes. Now I carry an instant camera in my car. SMILE! CLICK!


But a *real* driver's license does a lot of things other than driving. It's legal ID for cashing checks, it proves residence for a period of time (in the case of amnesties), it gives the drivers the ability to get insurance, it opens up new work opportunities, and it makes drivers pass a certain level of proficiency.

If the illegal immigrant wants the benefits of a license, they have a carrot to learn to drive better. That benefits public safety. They have something useful that can get revoked if they get pulled over doing something wrong. That also benefits public safety.


I said that this wouldn't be a popular law. But I look at it like needle exchange. Uneeded in a perfect world.

Hit and run can be a felony if persecutor wants is to be, it's called assault with a deadly weapon, i.e. car.

I'm wondering, what is going to stop authorities from deporting the illegal immigrants once they get the driver license?

[SRW]

Originally posted by Grammatron


While I do not agree with allowing illegal immigrants to stay in the US, I don't think statements like "they will do anything to stay here since they are already breaking the law" make sense either. By that logic people who hire illegals are even worse since not only are they breaking the law, but they are also providing illegals with means to live on.


Agreed the employers are just as guilty, however a drivers license will make it more difficult to pick the illegals out. I hired an illegal once when I worked for an electronics firm. He worked for me for a year before I found out. (I was able to get him documented I did not want to loose a good worker).


I don't think they "will do anything to say here" Only that they are unlikely to stick around to be involved with authorities.

[Bentspoon]

If they would just include a copy of the 10 Commandments with each license, then I am sure the hit and runs would stop and they would all be good citizens.

Bentspoon

[Shinytop]

Originally posted by Grammatron


That's not true, you have to be a citizen to vote regardless if you have a driver license or not.

You are correct that you are supposed to be a citizen. But California requires only a photo ID and your affirmation that you are a citizen. THEY DO NOT CHECK. Your apology will be accepted.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by SRW


Oh yes if they have driver licenses they will be so much more responsible. They will wait around for the cops, oh yeah that will happen.

Although the majority of illegals in CA are good people, you cannot get past the fact that they are law breakers. And will do anything to avoid the authorities.

The police dont round up ilegals, thats th INS's job. SO if they show up to an accident all they do is report or maybe write a ticket. UNLESS someone doesnt have a license. Then they may go to jail. If an illegal gets in an accident and he has his insurance and license he doesnt have to fear goingto jail so he wont run off. Im sure the insurance compaines are behind this.

Remember illegals arent all people who just run across the boarder every day. Often times theyve built stable lives in their communities, and they may have even been legal when they entered. Theyre not intrested in making waves.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Shinytop


You are correct that you are supposed to be a citizen. But California requires only a photo ID and your affirmation that you are a citizen. THEY DO NOT CHECK. Your apology will be accepted.

What do other states require??? The same right? We have all sorts of LEGAL immigrants. Should divers licenses be given only to citizens?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Shinytop


You are correct that you are supposed to be a citizen. But California requires only a photo ID and your affirmation that you are a citizen. THEY DO NOT CHECK. Your apology will be accepted.

California has no such rule that I am aware of. Please cite where you are getting this information. When the validity of your source is verified only then will I consider a possibility of an apology.

[Shinytop]

Originally posted by Grammatron


California has no such rule that I am aware of. Please cite where you are getting this information. When the validity of your source is verified only then will I consider a possibility of an apology.

You may now apologize.

This page (http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elections_faq.htm#vr) is the FAQ on voter registration in California.

Note this quote: Question: How can a person prove his or her citizenship?
Answer: California Elections Code § 2111 states, "A person may prove he or she is a citizen by his or her certification under penalty of perjury on the affidavit of registration (for voter registration purposes only)."

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Shinytop


You may now apologize.

This page (http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elections_faq.htm#vr) is the FAQ on voter registration in California.

Note this quote: Question: How can a person prove his or her citizenship?
Answer: California Elections Code § 2111 states, "A person may prove he or she is a citizen by his or her certification under penalty of perjury on the affidavit of registration (for voter registration purposes only)."

Are you serious? Nowhere on that page does it say anything about a driver license.

[SRW]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Are you serious? Nowhere on that page does it say anything about a driver license.

No ID of any kind is required you can mail the form in.

[Silicon]

Nowhere does it say that they do not check if you're a citizen.

In fact, they often DO check these kinds of things, where voter fraud is alleged, I remember at least one election where it was alleged that illegal immigrants were voting, and it was found to not be the case.


Shinytop, first you said that a Driver's license was all you need to vote.

THEN you said that a photo ID and an affidavit.

THEN you posted something that says it only takes an affidavit.


How many times are you going to change your story?


I don't think you're getting your apology.

[Shinytop]

You are correct in that I was wrong about the drivers license. But the fool who owes me an apology was arguing about no evidence required for citizenship. And I was dead on about that. My original source was talking about registering while getting your DL and about that he was right. You are kind of slow, aren't you, in that you have to have the obvious explained to you, huh, Silicon?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Shinytop
You are correct in that I was wrong about the drivers license. But the fool who owes me an apology was arguing about no evidence required for citizenship. And I was dead on about that. My original source was talking about registering while getting your DL and about that he was right. You are kind of slow, aren't you, in that you have to have the obvious explained to you, huh, Silicon?

Nice right to personal insults. Please show where I made this argument: Originally posted by Shinytop But the fool who owes me an apology was arguing about no evidence required for citizenship.

[Silicon]

What ORIGINAL source, Shinytop?

You didn't cite your origial source, nor does it seem that you quoted them correctly.

Nor does it seem that you understand California law. Drivers licenses have zero to do with voter rolls, other than the fact that the DMV is one of the places you can register to vote.

You can also register to vote in front of Wal-Mart, are they contributing to mass voter fraud?



Are you sure that it is me who is slow, and Grammatron that is the fool?

[Shinytop]

Are either one of you saying I am wrong when I say all you have to do is affirm you are a citizen? Did you read my link?

[Silicon]

No, I'm saying you were wrong when you said:

"In California a drivers license is all you have to have to vote."


Also, pot, meet kettle.


Florida Voter Fraud Issues:


Florida currently does not require a voter registrant to provide a Social Security number or Florida Driver's License number.

When registering, Florida requires merely an "indication" that the registrant is a U.S. Citizen, is not a convicted felon, or is not
adjudicated mentally incapacitated. While submitting a false voter registration application is a third degree felony (as of 1/1/98), the current trend to require little if any verifying information at the time one registers makes effective auditing, review, or investigative follow-up virtually useless to pursue. (Florida law allows the applicant to volunteer the information, but does not require that it be provided as a requisite for registration.) In reality, Florida has implemented a standard that is in essence little more than "trust me at my word alone" in registering to vote.


The same Florida fraud report cited CALIFORNIA as a model to follow, in order to SOLVE the problems plaguing Florida:



"Zero tolerance to voter fraud." Bill Jones, Secretary of State in California has established a goal of "100 percent participation by all eligible California voters with a tough zero tolerance policy for fraud." 2


"Voter Fraud Hotline" and "Handbook." As part of California's anti-voter fraud efforts, a statewide Voter Fraud Hotline (1-800-345-VOTE) has been established to allow any person to report any witnessed suspected election fraud or campaign abuses. The Secretary of State's Office in California has printed a small, pocket sized, "Voter Fraud Prevention Handbook" that briefly describes the requirements under law for registering to vote, voting at a poll, voting by absentee ballot, and "campaign do's and don'ts." 3 Included in the book's responses regarding "Absentee Ballots" is this advice: "...your vote is secret and you should not let anyone handle your ballot in any way...Pay close attention to deadlines, and under no circumstances permit any campaign workers to handle your ballot or fill in your choices. Be sure to refuse any offer from them to return your ballot for you. If they offer to do so, they are breaking the law. (EC Section 18371, 18403, 18577)." Florida is in need of similar and repeated advice to its citizens.


"Voter Eligibility Verification Act." In April, 1997, California saw introduced the "Voter Eligibility Verification Act." It seeks to provide local election officials the authority to make inquiries with the Social Security Administration and the Immigration and Naturalization Service to verify the citizenship of people who have submitted a voter registration application.


Aggressive Anti-Fraud Efforts By The California Secretary of State: In 1996, the California Secretary of State's Office uncovered evidence of voter fraud and dropped 727 noncitizens from the voter rolls. A few months later it discovered voting irregularities and ordered a complete review of Orange County, California's 1.3 million residents registered to vote in the state's general election.


http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/publications/voter_fraud.asp

Note that this report was written in 1998, 2 years before the 2000 election debacle. To Florida's credit, they did adopt the toll-free voter-fraud phone number from California.

But you still don't need anything but a signature to register to vote in Florida.



You can now apologize to me, Shinytop, you Floridian, for insulting my state. The very idea that someone from Florida should tell us how to run our elections is laughable.





:p

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Silicon

You can now apologize to me, Shinytop, you Floridian, for insulting my state. The very idea that someone from Florida should tell us how to run our elections is laughable.


:roll:

That is so true.

[Shinytop]

Tsk, tsk, neither of you demonstrate much knowledge of Florida voting but hey, I did not expect much.

I admitted my error on the drivers license already. Care to beat that dead horse. But all you need to do is affirm you are a citizen. And that part was accurate and to the shame of California.

And did I ever mention Florida voting? I don't think so, Tim. The discussion was about California voting and I did educate two people about voting in their own state.

For the record I oppose any state's system that does not require proof of citizenship.

[Silicon]

Originally posted by Shinytop


I admitted my error on the drivers license already.


And so the reason that voter registration issues are being discussed in this thread about Driver's licenses in California is WHAT exactly then?

[schplurg]

Back to the topic:

Whatever happened to the idea that getting a license to drive is a privelage and not a right?

from Silicon:
But a *real* driver's license does a lot of things other than driving. It's legal ID for cashing checks, it proves residence for a period of time (in the case of amnesties), it gives the drivers the ability to get insurance, it opens up new work opportunities, and it makes drivers pass a certain level of proficiency.
...things that are all illegal for this person to do here, pretty much. Making a criminal's life easier is solving exactly what problem that kicking their asses out would not? Answer that and you've got something.

If the illegal immigrant wants the benefits of a license, they have a carrot to learn to drive better. That benefits public safety. They have something useful that can get revoked if they get pulled over doing something wrong. That also benefits public safety.
Shouldn't citizenship be the carrot? Shouldn't the threat of being deported be enough of a carrot to get people to do things legally? Why should we offer them a drivers license, which encourages, and even supports, their illegal behavior? That's one problem with California's liberal politics...the attitude that it's never anyones fault, it's societies', and therefore society must pay the price. Why can't people be held accountable for their actions? This stuff is starting to piss me off because I have to live with the consequences of this type of thinking every day (CA politics in general I mean).

An illegal immigrant is more likely to stick around the scene of an accident if he has a license? Got a link with stats LOL? I suppose if they're dumb enough to apply for a license (therefore documenting themselves as being illegal), then they just may. This whole bill is totally ludicrous.

Tmy:
If an illegal gets in an accident and he has his insurance and license he doesnt have to fear goingto jail so he wont run off.
And if our laws were enforced and this person wasn't here illegally in the first place, this accident would not have occured. I like that solution better.

Grammatron:
I'm wondering, what is going to stop authorities from deporting the illegal immigrants once they get the driver license?
Nothing I hope!

And yes I do think the employers who hire undocumented aliens are just as bad, if not worse, than the people who they hire (not saying illegals are bad people). They are a huge part of the problem. I have a Libertarian friend who claims that it would be worse for society if illegals were not allowed to work in the fields here. He claims that without this, the cost of hiring help would increase, bringing up the price of the products.

So what? Hello, it is illegal! Does that not matter? I like the Libertarian platform for a lot of reasons, but if this is their actual stance (which I have no idea if it is) then that's a big problem for me. I think the market would take care of itself if a more reasonable wage were forced upon the growers, assuming one was actually demanded. I would think that would be a more Libertarian attitude. Maybe Shane can clue me in.

I'll repeat/rephrase my earlier question:

This bill is solving exactly what problem that kicking the illegals out would not?

[Silicon]

I think the main disconnect here is the idea that you have that since being in this country is illegal, EVERYTHING they do while being in this country is illegal.

The law doesn't work that way.

Breathing here isn't illegal. Cashing a check here isn't illegal. Buying a soda-pop here isn't illegal.

These folks break a law when they cross the border. That law needs to be enforced by Bush et al.

But them going about the business of life isn't illegal.

But public safety issues are still a problem.

And they're not just a problem for the illegal immigrants. They're a problem for everyone on the roads.

It's like those warning signs on the highway coming up from San Diego. They warn of illegal immigrants running across the highway.

Now you might make the argument about "why put the warning signs, let em get hit by cars?" Well if you don't care about the illegals' lives, the problem still remains that there are CITIZENS in the cars, and they get injured and killed too.


Now back to driver's licences. There are CITIZENS in the other cars on the highway, and they get injured and killed too.


Not a popular law, but I liken it to needle exchange.

[Silicon]

Originally posted by schplurg

This bill is solving exactly what problem that kicking the illegals out would not?


Quick answer:


Save lives in the meanwhile.


Oh, and the idea that Bush will be able to get all the illegal aliens out is a pipe-dream.

This deals with reality.

[schplurg]

It tries to deal with reality, but with a fantasy. The pipe dream, in my opinion, is that after all the money we waste on this that it's actually going to be effective. Any proof that a single life will be saved? Any science or research or statistics that show people are going to abide by this and can actually afford the insurance, or are we just hoping that they will be law abiding illegals and sign up? I think the expectation that this is going to be effective is the first mistake.

California does have a big hit and run problem, I'll admit that. It's largely due to the fact that people can't afford car insurance or they drive on suspended licenses. Many of these people are citizens, not illegals.

Why don't we work on getting ALL of the estimated 1,000,000 unlicensed/uninsured California motorists legal (or off the road perhaps...remember driving is a privelage, not a guarantee)? Why just the illegals...oh yeah...it's called a Recall Election!

But the liberals here in Cali always want to believe that their feel-good programs will help us all. And look where we are now with our state budget. Okay that's generalizing I know, but we can't afford to keep making costly mistakes. Perpetuating the problem of illegal immigration with these types of laws doesn't help in the long run (the long-run...a concept many Californians don't seem to understand). For example, if people actually do begin to sign up for licenses, perhaps it will encourage even more illegals to come here, which puts more drivers on the road, strangles our job market and economy a little more, and making our overall immigration problem even worse. I'm not an economics expert (duh) but there will probably be negative effects from this bill that will dwarf the problem that it is attempting to solve.

I stand behind the notion that our laws must be respected and that if we cater to criminals we are only perpetuating the problem by showing them that it's okay to break the law. What makes anyone think that they can afford the car insurance at all in the first place? I can barely afford mine. Or will the Government (me) help with that too? There are plenty of citizens that drive without licenses and insurance too. What about them?

If Johnny is skipping school every day, do we work on trying to get Johnny interested in going to school (or force him), or do we put Playstation 2 in his bedroom to make his life more enjoyable since he's staying home anyways? Makes life easier on the parents knowing where he is all day after all. It'll keep him safer. Bad analogy? Maybe heh.

The needle exchange has proven very effective in saving lives. This new bill will, more than anything else, save insurance companies lotsa money. This is hardly comparable. To get nit-picky, needles at least do have a legal purpose, even though they are mainly used illegally (maybe some people need em for insulin too?). It is at least legal to own a syringe, there is nothing LEGAL about an illegal immigrant having a driver's license.

I'm tired of giving away things to people that I had to earn the privelage to use, or pay for, by being a citizen of this country. Maybe that sounds harsh, I am a giving person, but enough is enough. California has outstretched its helping and welcoming arms far enough. If you aren't a bleeding-heart and you live here, then you feel my pain.

Silicon:
Save lives in the meantime
How? Any proof? The required 6 hours behind-the-wheel training to get a license doesn't make me feel much safer. Nor does the fact that someone is insured. Just because someone won't run from an accident doesn't mean they won't still get into one. This is about money and votes, not saving lives...that much should be obvious.

Now if your answer was "to save money", that would be more realistic, though just as difficult to prove. I'm sure the insurance companies will save money...the same companies who are in favor of this bill. They are trying to lessen Californias problem of hit and run incidents, which does not necessarily keep the accidents from occuring in the first place.

If you had said this bill will help "Get votes for the recall election", then I would agree with you.

[SRW]

schplurg

Are you saying Davis, after Vetoing this bill twice, is only doing it to get the Hispanic vote? What could possibly give you that impression.

I agree your assessment.

[Silicon]

Then you have to ask yourself:

Does requiring that all drivers be licensed benefit public safety?


Yes or no? Why?


What would our roads look like if no license was required to operate a car?

Better? Worse? Exactly the same?


Unless you answered "better" to the second question, you should be able to see the benefit to encouraging people to drive within the law, rather than go around it.

[Silicon]

Oh, I see this as a totally shameless vote-grabbing ploy! Don't get me wrong, we agree there!

Just being devil's advocate here.



BUT BUT BUT, MAYBE Davis sees this recall as being because the electorate is mad about his repeated vetoes of this law! YEAH, that's IT!

[alex_c]

The argument I've heard most often in favor of this bill is that if "undocumented immigrants" or whatever would be more likely to stay at the scene of an accident. This sounds like a good idea, but I don't see how the passage of this bill makes insurance anymore accessible to anyone. If they were willing to drive w/out a license and flee the scene of an accident, why would having a license change anything if they can't afford insurance?

Sorry, I don't think this bill is going to have any real effect on anything. Maybe that's why it passed. Good for PR, but no real change.

I don't buy the needing the license for other activities, such as cashing a check. But no one has convinced me of increased danger from terrorists either. Or for that matter, that next year, I'll be a citizen of Mexico.

[Silicon]

Yeah, the other thing is that this law merely RETURNS the state policy to the status quo that it had before 1994.


So, I don't think that the whole state will explode if we go back to that.



Since 1994, applicants for California driver's licenses have been required to prove they were
legal residents of the United States. They also must provide their Social Security numbers.

The bill, however, would repeal the residency requirement and allow illegal immigrants to provide
a federal taxpayer number and a second form of identity chosen by the Department of Motor
Vehicles to qualify for a license.

http://www.latimes.com/la-me-immigrant3sep03,1,1364473.story


What I wanna know is HOW are illegals getting a Federal Taxpayer number!!! Damn illegals paying TAXES!!! ;)

[Pyrrho]

People who are in this country illegally should not receive the benefits of citizenship. If they want the benefits of citizenship, then they should become citizens by following the legal process.

It is improper and unethical for legislators or governors, who are elected to represent legitimate citizens, to give the benefits of citizenship to non-citizens. Doing so is an abandonment of a fiduciary duty to the citizens of the state of California.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33016-2003Sep5.html


In remarks earlier today, Davis said that California was following privileges granted in states such as New Mexico and Nevada, and he also made an economic argument in support of the bill. "You couldn't get food at a reasonable cost without farm workers who toil in the hot sun. I believe we need to honor their hard work, which subsidizes our economy."


They're not supposed to be working those jobs in the first place. Too bad for us if we have to pay higher prices for legal labor. Shame on us for not enforcing labor laws.


The measure is also supported by Lt. Gov. Cruz M. Bustamante, the most prominent Democrat in the recall race, who said at Wednesday night's debate that granting licenses is only fair. Bustamante said the state's hotels, farms and construction sites are filled with workers "who come across the border" and do the kinds of jobs "that you and I do not do, in fact, would not do."
This, I submit, is a myth. It is a myth that plays into the hands of employers who do not pay decent wages for hard work. There are plenty of unemployed citizens who need the jobs being held by illegal migrants.

Again, if people want the benefits of citizenship, they need to become citizens. It is the duty of the elected officials to enforce the law, not to circumvent the law to permit illegal migrants the benefits of citizenship.

The United States should not bear the responsibility for these people; they are the responsibility of the government of Mexico. It is high time we held Mexico to its responsibilities to its own citizens.

[Silicon]

Phyrro,

I agree with everything you say, but I think you oversimplify the issues at stake.

I think we should work on getting legal migrant worker's permits for the farm workers. Those are jobs that I think could not be filled by citizens alone. I think you underestimate the workforce it takes to pick the food the world eats.

Without those workers, farming would go to other countries, it would simply be cheaper to buy crops from overseas.

This would boost the economies of those other countries, which I am for. But it would come at the expense of the huge agribusiness industry in America. They like the tax-free employment subsidy that illegal workers provide.

Without immigrant workers, a larger part of your tax bill will go to farm subsidies. Try to find the political power to fight that. Remember, farms are big in republican states, too.

It's a huge problem exactly BECAUSE so many industries are reliant on illegal immigration. If they weren't, we would have fixed the problem by now.

Aren't you the least bit curious why NEITHER republicans nor democrats have come down hard on employers of illegal aliens?

Because that's where you stop the spigot, at the jobs. Not the drivers' licenses. The jobs. Mysteriously, we haven't seen any high-ranking illegal immigrant employers prosecuted.

[mjv]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
There are plenty of unemployed citizens who need the jobs being held by illegal migrants.



I don't know about your area, but in Austin, Texas, I have to call BS on that one.

The illegals bust their butts doing backbreaking labor for what I assume are relatively low wages.

On any given day, I can drive by three or four "work sites", which are areas where Illegals wait for work in parking lots or corners. If you pull up, every single one of them will volunteer for whatever job you have.

I always like to contrast that with the white guys and gals on the streetcorners with their cardboard signs wanting a free handout as if the world owes them something for free.

I do think immigrants should pursue legal citizenship, but at least they are willing to work hard and try to make something of themselves.

[SRW]

Well now that the Illegals can get drivers licenses they will be qualified to work in jobs that require licenses. What is to stop them. Legal Immigrants are competing for the same jobs as the illegals. Now the illegals will have more opportunity.

Also many of them work on a cash basis. Simply having a SSN or FIN does not mean that they pay taxes.

[schplurg]

I think we should work on getting legal migrant worker's permits for the farm workers. Those are jobs that I think could not be filled by citizens alone. I think you underestimate the workforce it takes to pick the food the world eats.

Without those workers, farming would go to other countries, it would simply be cheaper to buy crops from overseas.

Bull-pucky :) You know who used to work in the fields years ago? The Irish and the Italians and other Euro's who migrated here. They would take the crappiest jobs available while they worked their way into our society. Then came the Japanese and Asian cultures, picking fruit and getting their s*** together here (which they have done). So don't tell me that illegal aliens are our only hope now. American citizens do plenty of hard work...working on roads, on high buildings, hauling garbage. I believe that if a fair wage were demanded that people would work in the fields too.

mjv:
The illegals bust their butts doing backbreaking labor for what I assume are relatively low wages.

No they aren't low paying, they're criminally low, as in way below minimum wage. This is why you'll find a large percentage of them are illegal, because they have no choice. And as far as bums [not P.C. I know to use that awful term] on streetcorners holding signs, I see plenty of "non-whites" doing it too. At least they say "will work for food" heh...ok ya right.

I will grant that most Mexicans I know that have come straight from Mexico work their butts off (that's mainly who we are referring to). I know several personally who were illegal for a long time, worked hard, and are now legal and have brought over some of their family. It's still illegal though, and the law has to mean something.

Unemployment is terrible in California. I currently have a near minimum wage job driving deliveries, in between my web design and advertising work, which is finally picking up here in Silicon Valley. I might pick veggies if the wage was do-able. Hell I've swung hammers and been a laborer on construction sites in the past. That's hard work too, believe me. Tougher than picking fruit!

And picking fruit is not the only place you'll find illegal help. Construction workers use illegals all the time. They're getting cheap and often UNQUALIFIED workers building your homes and doing who knows what. Sounds kinda dangerous having someone who doesn't know what they're doing working on structures, or perhaps wiring your electricity. I'm not saying that none of them are skilled, what I'm saying is that when employers hire illegals, they're doing it to save a buck. It's called cutting corners, which means that they don't mind the risk. These employers should be penalized severely (after all they're saving a LOT of money, they can afford the fines heh).

These employers can undercut the competition by hiring illegally, which is not fair and does not help the market any. This idea of getting easier on illegals rather than tougher has far reaching consequences.

I know a lot of citizens in construction (yes I know a lot of people) who would love to have a job right now. But some of these are being held by illegals. See, we're not just talking about fruit here. These are Americans being put out of work by illegal aliens (they aren't immigrants if they're illegal are they? I know we love terms like "undocumented" etc. here in Cali, but the fact is that it is illegal).

Stats you say? So now we will give them licenses to drive. The # of deaths from auto accidents where the perpetrator has fled the scene is less than 300 per year. I looked up stats the other day but didn't post them...I may be off by 50 either way. This is not "illegals involved in accidents either", this is the total. That doesn't seem like a huge number to me, certainly not worth passing such a ridiculous bill.

So of these 300 +/- deaths, SOME are probably caused by illegals (they fled the scene so who knows?). SOME of these probably would have occured whether or not the driver was licensed. How many lives is this really going to save? How could anyone possibly know? Yet here we are passing laws with no real proof of any benefit, and not much of one even if it is effective.

So anyways, Davis signed the bill and now has the Hispanic vote. Hopefully we'll get a chance to vote this one down. Hopefully this is his Swan-Song. Can anyone be more transparent than this guy? And no, I'm not for Ah-nold. I'd hate to go through all this recall hassle only to end up with him, mainly because he has nothing much to say.

One more note, and maybe this thread can die. If I snuck into Mexico, the border patrols or Federales would arrest me, maybe rough me up good, and deport my ass. Mexico does not f*** around with this crap, why should we? You think they'd let me get a license there? Hell no, senor!

Peace

[mjv]

Originally posted by schplurg

Bull-pucky :) You know who used to work in the fields years ago? The Irish and the Italians and other Euro's who migrated here.

BZZZZZT. Sorry to be argumentative, but that answer does not apply for Texas and much of the Southwest. Mexicans (most of whom were born here; they didn't cross the border, it crossed them) were most commonly engaged in farm labor.

It's still illegal though, and the law has to mean something.[/QUOTE]

Trust me, if the big construction companies and restaurant chains wanted the law to mean something, so would their representatives on the local, state, and federal level.

I might pick veggies if the wage was do-able. Hell I've swung hammers and been a laborer on construction sites in the past. That's hard work too, believe me. Tougher than picking fruit!
[/QUOTE]

I know several people who have worked as migrant farm workers either short-term or as a living. It is hard, back breaking, labor. Try spending a full weekend picking a few bushels of leaves off your lawn rather than raking them up sometime, that will give you an idea. Working construction (which I've done as well) is no day in the park, but picking fruit is a truly crappy job. Very few construction workers are crippled in their later years from their work, but it is fairly common among migrant workers.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by Shinytop
In California a drivers license is all you have to have to vote. Ain't that something. We are now going to let illegals determine how California votes which means they may well decide who is President considering the number of electoral votes California has. Seems the SCOTUS ought to be able to do something about California's lack of control over who votes in national elections.

That's why California has stayed under the Democrat's thumb for so long, we allow illegals and inmates to vote. Who do they vote for? The ones who promise them a chicken in every pot and a plasma TV to watch while waiting to collect the welfare check.