Latest Scientology Outrage

[Ipecac]

New Scientology Contract (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96299,00.html)

Let's hope that he can read the fine print in a new agreement the religious organization is demanding its members sign.

The contract — called the "Agreement and General Release Regarding Spiritual Assistance" — makes it clear that the signee does not believe in psychiatry and does not want to be treated for any kind of psychiatric ailment should one befall him.

Instead, once the paper is signed, the agreement calls for the Church of Scientology to step in if there's ever a problem. The result would be total isolation and constant surveillance.


The question is: Will the stars upon whom Scientology has depended to carry its message — including Cruise, John Travolta and Kelly Preston, Lisa Marie Presley and her mother, Priscilla — sign a new agreement that could potentially hand over their rights and personal freedom to the church?

Gee, what are the odds they'll require these high profile members to sign the contract?

Read the entire article. The Scientology leadership should be thrown in jail. :mad:

[Marc]

She described psychiatry as "barbaric, harmful, and fraudulent." :id:

Yea, the article got it right. This *ahem* contract, as well as calling the Introspection Rundown a religious service is merely a way to cover their ass legally while they do the same old brainwashing.:mad:

[I'll_buy_that]

"I understand that the Introspection Rundown is an intensive, rigorous Religious Service that includes being isolated from all sources of potential spiritual upset, including but not limited to family members, friends or others with whom I might normally interact."

What? they are afraid that their members might take their money elsewhere? That is what this new contract says to me. It seems mainly to serve the churches legal needs more than the needs of the followers.

And also, would a church want a psychiatrist telling his patient that there are no aliens coming to get him?

[reprise]

Ah, at last, a legal means to stop families interfering in the "treatment" of their members...

Unfortunately, the CoS doesn't usually mess up on legal stuff of this magnitude, and it's extremely expensive to fight them in court. Families and others wishing to procure psychiatric care for church members will have to go to court to test the validity of the contract, and the church will just appeal any decisions which go against them.

There's a very real chance that the church will succeed in their attempts to have these contracts given a legal status similar to that of "living wills" and medical power of attorney, and I can't see too many people having the funds and commitment to risk a legal battle with them.

[American]

I'm really torn. I think peoples' personalities can be naturally spastic, hyper, slightly paranoid, have short attention spans, etc... I call those personality traits. Some doctors want to call them "disorders", which I find offensive.

So anyone who behaves how I don't like really has a medical disorder? Interesting excuse. If I stay up 24 hours working like mad, I'd be considered driven or somehow work-gifted years ago (presumably an inherited product of survival and evolution), but now it's some kind of "disease". Bullsh*t.

Coping is another issue. Relying on drugs is not going to help you grow and be a strong person. You have to suffer and fear as you should, then you will be able to deal with any challenge in life (without running to your $50 an hour therapist).

If I had my way, CoS would all be shot or in jail. But I do agree with them that drugging people for being slightly disturbed, unusually driven, or oddly behaved is not a good thing.

[reprise]

But I do agree with them that drugging people for being slightly disturbed, unusually driven, or oddly behaved is not a good thing.

There is no doubt that the Citizens Committee on Human Rights - a Scientology offshoot - has revealed come barbaric and systematic abuse of human rights by the psychiatric profession. However, Scientology's interest in this area is not altruistic. It doesn't seek to simply free those who shouldn't be there in the first place from the psychiatric health care system, it seeks to transfer them to its own (highly questionable), equally expensive and "mental health" programme - a programme which is unaccountable to any professional or government supervising body.

[American]

Originally posted by reprise
It doesn't seek to simply free those who shouldn't be there in the first place from the psychiatric health care system, it seeks to transfer them to its own (highly questionable), equally expensive and "mental health" programme - a programme which is unaccountable to any professional or government supervising body.


You mean a resistor, a voltmeter, and 3 LEDs assembled in circuit isn't going to tell me if I need psychiatric medical care?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by American



You mean a resistor, a voltmeter, and 3 LEDs assembled in circuit isn't going to tell me if I need psychiatric medical care?

No, but the level of seriousness with which its results are interpreted is going to tell you if the operator needs psychiatric medical care.

[Ladewig]

The name, "Agreement and General Release Regarding Spiritual Assistance," seems pretty long. Can't they just call it the McPherson clause?


http://www.lisamcpherson.org/

[Psi Baba]

Originally posted by Ladewig
The name, "Agreement and General Release Regarding Spiritual Assistance," seems pretty long. Can't they just call it the McPherson clause?


http://www.lisamcpherson.org/

You said it, Ladewig. That's EXACTLY what it is. No two ways about it. It's a contract that gives $cientology the right to murder.



Memo to all Muslim extremists: I hear Scientologists wipe their asses with the Qu'ran.

[Eos of the Eons]

The real concern here is for folks who have disorders like schizophrenia. They get convinced to go off of their meds. The consequences are tragic.

I take meds (for depression/anxiety) but you can't look at it as relying on them. You have to understand what 20 years of harsh stress does to the brain. The brain is a 'body' part that can be damaged. Meds help heal that damage or (in the case of schizophrenia) make a disorder manageable so that the person is not a danger to themselves or others.

Dianetics is so full of Shlznitz that people are trying to use quackery to 'heal' folks. They have no idea what they are doing. People have died. I will try to find the case where a woman was detained in hotel room for 'therapy' and died of dehydration.

http://www.lisamcpherson.org/index.htm

The physical self cannot be healed by 'healing' the spirirt. That's like saying a broken bone will jump back in place and heal itself if you folllow their teachings on how to use your power of thinking or whatever. Becomin a 'clear' is more like becoming a believer in withchraft and ESP.

I hate those b@stards and they all deserve to rot in their own h3ll on earth. Sad thing is they take others with them that can, could, and would benefit from therapy.

A lot of the woo woo stuff is actually relaxation techniques and they tie it into crap. I learned in therapy how stress affects the physical self, and non-woowoo methods to 'heal' and prevent myself from getting anxious and overstressed.

Sure meds are a band aid, but some people really need them to help get back to feeling better again. When that band aid is used, it then helps you to focus on learning to deal with stress and understand why you are in need of help. You can't fix what you don't know is broken.

You have to look at it as healing the brain physically because you do have chemical levels that will wreak havoc if not dealt with. Schizophrenics use different parts of the brain to think with than non-schizophrenics, and they have high levels of dopamine. Think of it as dreaming/hallucinating and not being able to tell the difference between what is actually happening and what is a figment of your imagination. You see and hear and touch. We all know we can trust our perceptions to a certain degree. The sky is blue, the grass grows, and we usually hear what others say with little interference. Now have someone tell you the sky is not blue. Would you believe them-you see it's blue. They're the ones that are crazy-not you. That is what happens to schizophrenics. They hear fine, but what they hear is not what anyone else hears.

Their brains don't work like ours, and no amount of therapy (woo woo or otherwise) can change that. Dianetics teaches otherwise, and that's why it is crap.

Now at least depression is treatable in a variety of ways. You are simply getting back to the way it was before you were in the depressed state. That is possible. You are not trying to change your brain completely. You can most of the time get back to making normal levels of brain chemicals. I don't know if I can though. I've been depressed so long that it is now the normal state of being without meds. It's like how smoking changes your brain to suit nicotine's presence. It never goes completely back to normal if you have smoked a long time. If you don't smoke a long time you do have a chance to get your normal brain back.

Prolonged smoking and stress do change you permanently.


It's this physical change that is denied by woo woo medicine, but recognized in regular medical care systems that can help a person. Getting that care can be frustrating though-especially if you can't afford it. Going to a 'church' is less expensive (even if they take all your money-at least you don't build up a huge debt).


This is the sad part. It's easier to go to woo woos than get real help. At least in my area I can access therapy and meds covered by my health insurance. I can't tell you how grateful I am.

[Jesse2]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
The real concern here is for folks who have disorders like schizophrenia. They get convinced to go off of their meds. The consequences are tragic. Doesn't Scientology actually encourage schizophrenic ideas and behavior?

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Jesse2,

Doesn't Scientology actually encourage schizophrenic ideas and behavior?

I don't know about schizophrenic, but they encourage paranoia, delusional beliefs, and psychotic and antisocial behavior.

Scientology is a very rare kind of mind-control cult. It is rare in the fact that it was actually designed, from the ground up, for the specific purpose of being a mind control cult. Most of them develop naturally, when a deluded but charismatic leader gets a bunch of followers who first brainwash themselves, and then as the cult grows, begin systematically brainwashing others. In the case of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard knew exactly what he was doing.


Dr. Stupid

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
Jesse2,

Most of them develop naturally, when a deluded but charismatic leader gets a bunch of followers who first brainwash themselves, and then as the cult grows, begin systematically brainwashing others. In the case of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard knew exactly what he was doing.


Dr. Stupid

Actually Hubbard was a charismatic pathological liar to begin with, but he did borrow heavily from Crowley when he started Scientology.

[Jesse2]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
Jesse2,
I don't know about schizophrenic, but they encourage paranoia, delusional beliefs, and psychotic and antisocial behavior. The answer is basically yes. Schizophrenia has symptoms of paranoia and delusional beliefs and is a form of psychosis.

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
In the case of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard knew exactly what he was doing.[/B] From what I've read, L. Ron Hubbard was also a psychotic - perhaps a particularly nasty one, especially after reading the accusations made by his wife in the divorce papers:

http://www.b-org.demon.nl/scn/nl/english/divorce-sara-hubbard.html

[Eos of the Eons]

I read part of the dianetics book and It was so full of crap I only got a 1/4 the way through. When it started to say schizophrenia could be cured by the methods of the philosophy I was pissed off.

Basically they believe in these circles-I think 7. A big part of it is 'mind control'-to make yourself a 'clear'. I visited the edmonton office where I bought the book.

Then my son stubbed his toe. You know how your toe only hurts for a couple of seconds. My son is a bit of a drama queen and screamed like he was dying (as usual). Then one of the guys there used the 'touch therapy'.

This annoyed me to no end because I knew what he was doing. I wasn't impressed one bit. Then I read the book, and that was it. They are whackos.

I won't have my son believing the guy took his pain away. Reminded me of Rasputin.

My mom has paranoid schizophrenia. She hid me and my brothers away from my dad when she got sick after 5 years of marriage. She was my sole 'caregiver'. At first she scared the hell out of me with her crazy tales from her paranoid delusions. I as 13 when I finally read a psychology book and found she fit the schizophrenic description to a T. I was relieved, and confronted her with my new knowledge. That got me kicked out of the house.

So I read up on it some more and heard how the medications worked.

There is no way I would ever have gotten sucked in my the scientology/dianetics philosophy.

Sometimes bad things lead to 'clear' thinking, not denial as preached by scientologists.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

c4ts,

Most of them develop naturally, when a deluded but charismatic leader gets a bunch of followers who first brainwash themselves, and then as the cult grows, begin systematically brainwashing others. In the case of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard knew exactly what he was doing.

Dr. Stupid
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually Hubbard was a charismatic pathological liar to begin with, but he did borrow heavily from Crowley when he started Scientology.

I know. That's the point. Hubbard was not a scientologist. He was a manipulative liar who knew full well that the religion he was inventing was a fraud, and did so for no reason other than his own selfish desire for wealth and power.

As for Crowley, Hubbard "borrowed" from anybody who had anything he thought might be useful. As near as I can tell, the man never had an original thought in his life. Dianetics was just hypnotic regression therapy with new names for everything. His theories of how memory works was not original either. When he converted it to a religion, the mythology he invented was lifted directly from the science fiction of the previous several decades. And yes, a lot of the philosophical nonsense he included in it came directly from Crowley.

Hubbard's one exceptional quality was his ability as a story teller (which unfortunately was not accompanied by a talent for creating good stories). He knew enough about basic psychology and human nature to figure out how to use his knack for storytelling to create a cult of devoted worshipers.

I guess it just goes to show what a highly motivated, moderately intelligent person can accomplish, when they place absolutely no value on anything but their own desires.


Dr. Stupid

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
In the case of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard knew exactly what he was doing.
Ok, I tried searching the internet, and I cant verify this, but I heard L. Ron Hubbard designed scientology as a joke to show the gullibility of people and religion.

I like how opposite these two websites are:
Scientology Lies (http://www.scientology-lies.com/)
Church of Scientology (http://www.scientology.org/)

Personally, I see Scientology as a destructive and disgusting cult... I'd favor a religion inspired by the Evil Dead Trilogy than Scientology.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Personally, I see Scientology as a destructive and disgusting cult... I'd favor a religion inspired by the Evil Dead Trilogy than Scientology.

I'd favor a religion inspired by the Evil Dead Trilogy over ANY religion, except Cthulhuism which is like that only better.

[Eos of the Eons]

Some references to Scientology in Heinlein's novel Friday suggest that this may, in fact, be true.
http://www.google.ca/custom?q=cache:_wgU4oVc5RcJ:www.everything2.com/index.pl%3Fnode%3Dthe%2520Church%2520of%2520Scient ology+Hubbard,+joke,+scientology,+bet&hl=en&ie=UTF-8



When conveinient, Scientology apparently considers the lack of evidence to be either proof of innocence else it's a conspiracy. In this case it's apparently both.

In a 1981 issue of Reader's Digest, L. Ron Hubbard was quoted as saying:


"Writing a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion."
For some mysterious reason the Scientology organization "forgot" to mention this quote and -- in the claims faithfully reproduced above -- the organization expresses ignorance as to what the actual quote is.

To be fair, there have been a large variety of rumors regarding this quote, including the suggestion that Hubbard made a bar bet with Robert A. Heinlein. In Bare Faced Messiah which Scientology tried very hard to stop being published, Neison Himmel who shared a room with Hubbard stated:


"I always knew he was exceedingly anxious to hit big money -- he used to say he thought the easiest way to make money would be to start a cult." .

http://www.cosvm.info/startit.htm

[Marc]

To get a very good idea of the Scientology mindset, especially of the higher ups or long term members, a good source is 1984 by Orwell.

[gnome]

No thread on scientology would be complete without the excellent website http://www.xenu.net

American, don't confuse naming a personality trait or disorder with judging it. There are some people with these traits who are perfectly good people able to cope with how they're different from others. However identifying and evaluating these traits can help determine what traits, to what extent, are unhealthy and should be treated... you need a language and a vocabulary to go by.

Any psychiatrists here...? Would the definition of a disorder include that it is actually having a bad effect on the person's life?

[Eos of the Eons]

I just don't know how else to talk about the whole bunch of 'disorders' from schizophrenia to tourettes to 'just' depression at the same time. I would even include the different mental disorders from retardation to autism among 'disorders'. I'm using it as a blanket term for all the different disorders out there.

You can't call them all something that would indicate they were all just a 'challenge' or go so far as just saying different or special. We're all quite mature around here, and will hopefully not view these terms in a degrading manner. All the disorders include difficulty in overcoming some aspects in order to lead an independent life. Leading a productive life is easier in some cases than others, and depends largely on the individual and their experiences.

This brings us to the helpful and not helpful experiences from scientology to therapy. Not all therapists are good, and quite possibly not all scientologists are bad or bad intentioned. Not everyone is going to have beneficial experiences on their road to leading healthy lives, especially those with the challenges including disorders.

I feel scientology is one of the least helpful and people should get as much encouragement and information as they can in order to avoid quackery like that.

Discussing these matters is difficult, but since I do suffer from a particularly severe case of depression, I don't mind referring to it as a disorder. Schizophrenia is exceedingly difficult because of how the world is perceived by those afflicted. It's extremely difficult to recognize that you have an illness that could benefit from meds. There are even cases that can't be helped by meds available to them. My mom is paranoid of drugs in general and won't even touch coffee. This attitude even kept me from seeking help for a long time. I'm only glad I didn't get sucked into a cult.

[arcticpenguin]

Scientologists loses copyright case (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/32701.html)

The Court of Appeal in The Hague last week rejected all of the Church of Scientology's claims its action against the Dutch ISP Xs4all, writer Karin Spaink and ten other internet providers for publishing copyrighted material on the web.

As a result, Spaink's website which Scientologists had sought to remove, is entirely legal.

[daenku32]

Scientology = Christian Science

It's a real SHAME that they used the word "Science" in their names.

They both seem to avoid regular doctors. And expect the religion to heal them.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by daenku32
Scientology = Christian Science

It's a real SHAME that they used the word "Science" in their names.

They both seem to avoid regular doctors. And expect the religion to heal them.

Except that Christian Science doesn't expect you to give all your posessions away to the church and sign a waver allowing them to interfere when you go crazy from living with them.

[Rocky]

Originally posted by daenku32
Scientology = Christian Science

It's a real SHAME that they used the word "Science" in their names.

They both seem to avoid regular doctors. And expect the religion to heal them.

Christian Science does not prohibit it's followers from seeing a doctor. They also have one of the best news sources around, better than CNN.

[Eos of the Eons]

They also have one of the best news sources around, better than CNN.

Eh? Like what? That's news to me

[Rocky]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons


Eh? Like what? That's news to me

It is often cited by Google News.
a recent example Here (http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0909/p01s04-woeu.html). Honest reporting with no hype.

[Eos of the Eons]

Hmm, this is the type of NEWS (http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0908/p01s03-wosc.html#story) in the middle east I've been looking for.

I guess I'm guilty of fearing their news will have a biased slant, just like they fear science news will have a biased slant in good scientific magazines.

Thanks for the link!

[Rocky]

Originally posted by Eos of the Eons
Hmm, this is the type of NEWS (http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0908/p01s03-wosc.html#story) in the middle east I've been looking for.

I guess I'm guilty of fearing their news will have a biased slant, just like they fear science news will have a biased slant in good scientific magazines.

Thanks for the link!

I don't think they fear Science News (http://www.csmonitor.com/scitech/index.html) in any form. Their news branch (The Monitor) doesn't have any bias that I know of; not even Pro/Con religion

[Eos of the Eons]

Are some topics-like evolution still always left out though? It's not that they are printing just crap about evolution being hoaky, but an omission could be seen as a bias too?

I know some christians aren't close minded. I got hired by a lady who puts god in front of family as important in life, and I got hired even though I have a pro-evolution web site and am very 'left wing'.

I don't think I'll ever hear her say that the earth is more than 7 thousand years old though.


I did a search for evolutionary topics and didn't come up with much. I'm not into paying to look through the archives though.

[Rocky]

I don't know what if anything is off limits since I don't read the whole thing. Christian Science does not beleve in a litteral OT so evolution should be cool.