God is the only evil thing in the Garden of Eden

[truethat]

In reading Genesis and discussing the creation (according to Biblical text) it occurred to me that when God creates the world he looks at it and says everything he made was Good.

In Genesis 3 when Adam and Eve are being judged for eating the tree of life he says that ---they have become like us knowing Good and Evil.

If you consider this, God himself defines everything in the world as Good and only himself as Evil.

What do you make of this, those who consider God good and righteous.

[Darat]

I was following you up to "If you consider this, God himself defines everything in the world as Good and only himself as Evil." - I don't see where that comes from.

[truethat]

Genesis 1:31


31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


So the things God created by God were all GOOD

Genesis 3:22

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."


You see if you actually read the Genesis accounts you can see a lot of interesting information. If a believer suggests that they are indeed the word of God, you can see that God made everything GOOD.

So where did Evil come from? Well God self describes himself as EVIL?

[SomeGuy]

Genesis 1:31


31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


So the things God created by God were all GOOD

Genesis 3:22

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."


You see if you actually read the Genesis accounts you can see a lot of interesting information. If a believer suggests that they are indeed the word of God, you can see that God made everything GOOD.

So where did Evil come from? Well God self describes himself as EVIL?

No He describes himself (and the choir of angels.. hence the us) as knowing good and evil.

The real problem is how can an all-knowing all-powerful god create a paradise for the first humans, and have them screw it up in no time....

Eventhough god had seen it was all good....

[Nucular]

Surely God says he simply 'knows' good and evil, rather than being evil?

You might argue that since God made the world, and it was 'good' (if we assume the original Hebrew actually means good as opposed to evil, rather than 'well made' or something), then the only evil around must subsequently have come from God.

But I don't think God describes himself as evil just there.

[Darat]

Which choir of angels?

[truethat]

Yeah what Choir of Angels?

US is a whole nother ball game. But if you want to get into the nitty gritty, God LIED to mankind and the serpent told the truth.

God said:

but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'


But they didn't touch it or eat it and die.

What happened is that God killed them for eating it. He didn't say "If you eat this I will kill you and punish you for your disobedience" He said IT would cause them to die.

That's like me saying "If you go in the pool you will drown" and then you go in the pool and you are floating around and I come and hold you under the water and drown you, and then I say "See, I told you you would drown"

But here's what the serpent says:


Genesis 3:4-5
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."


And then later when God busts them God says


22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."



Hmmmmmm


So the SERPENT is the one who told the truth, God basically murdered them and lied and admitted that he knows evil.

[c4ts]

Eve was made from an evil rib! Therefore the evil in Eden was ribs!

[Dancing David]

The actual issue is that the god of the bible is not the creator of the world. There is AL whose nature is unknowable and undefined, that is the creator. Then there is the demiurgos YHVH (blood soakesd sinai dust devil) who is the plauge of the bible.

[Steven Howard]

If I'm right, this is a fallacy of equivocation, playing off two different meanings of the word "good." This is what I think you're saying:

Premise 1) God sees that everything He created is good. (Genesis 1:31*)

Premise 2) God can tell the difference between good and evil. (Genesis 3:22*)

Unstated premises:

Premise 3) God created everything that exists, except for Himself.

Premise 4) Nothing can be both good and evil.

Premise 5) At least one evil thing exists.

Conclusions:

C1 (From P1 & P2): Everything created by God is good.

C2 (From C1 & P3): Everything that exists, except for God, is good.

C3 (From C2 & P4): Nothing that exists, except for God, can be evil.

C4 (From C3 & P5): God is evil.

But, as I say, it's not necessarily the case that good always means not evil. I can say, "This is a good sandwich" but unless I'm being silly I wouldn't say "This sandwich is not evil" to mean the same thing.


*I'm taking your word for the Scripture references.

[dementedcactus]

For starters, When God says 'you gon die sucka' he refers to humans having the ABILITY to die. Once they ate the food they gained both the knowledge of good and evil and the ability to die. Unfortunately we can't stop using it :)

Unless you consider the serpent as part of the Garden of Eden, then God was the evilest thing in it just by knowing what evil was. Really the serpent was eviler since he/she/it DID something evil (which by bible standards is everything that goes against the will of God, so ALOT).

[Bikewer]

I see evil in God's lack of R&D. Being omniscient and all, he should have known his creations were going to screw up....Yet he created them anyway.

Come to think of it, he didn't do too well with the angels either....

Back to the laboratory!

[dementedcactus]

I see evil in God's lack of R&D. Being omniscient and all, he should have known his creations were going to screw up....Yet he created them anyway.

Come to think of it, he didn't do too well with the angels either....

Back to the laboratory!
Exactly. So does that mean that God does NOT know all and see all?

[plumjam]

Evil is a relic:

http://www.avatarmeherbaba.org/erics/goodevil.htm

[truethat]

God wasn't referring to a sandwich. That's a modern interpretation of the word GOOD.

[Ichneumonwasp]

God wasn't referring to a sandwich. That's a modern interpretation of the word GOOD.

Are you honestly suggeting that rocks and trees are ethically good?

[Ichneumonwasp]

Besides, within the second creation account, Eve clearly has knowledge of good and bad for she saw that the fruit was good to eat.

She simply lacked knowledge of good and evil.

You were equivocating between these two meanings of the word 'good'.

[Skeptical Greg]

.... Really the serpent was eviler since he/she/it DID something evil (which by bible standards is everything that goes against the will of God, so ALOT).That's another confusing thing.
How can you go against the will of an omnipotent God ?

[dementedcactus]

That's another confusing thing.
How can you go against the will of an omnipotent God ?
Well, from what i've read (A Course in Miracles) God can't go against himself. He cannot be wrong - hence omnipotence and all that good shiz. But, it was his WILL that mankind have freewill. So it's logical that he also gave his angels free will too. Cause It would suck to have to micromanage all the time, you know? It makes sense that he would give them intelligence.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Again a debate on the philosophical and symbolic meanings in Genesis. Again I say, there was a story, it might have had meaning thousands of years before Genesis was written. The story changed over time. It differs little from other Creation myths. Modern man seeks to attach significance and meaning to the nuances of the story to make sense of it.

Can you imagine debating the philosophy of why another god put "turtles all the way down"?

[articulett]

Again a debate on the philosophical and symbolic meanings in Genesis. Again I say, there was a story, it might have had meaning thousands of years before Genesis was written. The story changed over time. It differs little from other Creation myths. Modern man seeks to attach significance and meaning to the nuances of the story to make sense of it.

Can you imagine debating the philosophy of why another god put "turtles all the way down"?

How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

[Damien Evans]

How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?

Depends on the size of the angels, the size of the pin and whether the angels are coordinated or not.:D

[Hokulele]

How many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?


None. Dancing is a sin you silly person. ;)

[RandFan]

Yes, let's argue over ancient creation myths.

Babylonian Creation Myth (http://www.cresourcei.org/enumaelish.html)
African Creation Myth - (http://www.tribalarts.com/feature/lawal/)
Korean & Japanese (http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Asia/creation_myths_in_korea_and_japan.htm)Creation Myth comparisons (http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Asia/creation_myths_in_korea_and_japan.htm)
Navajo Creation Myth (http://www.lapahie.com/Creation.cfm)
Norse Creation Myth (http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Europe/norse_creation_myth.htm)
Creation Myth from India (http://www.people.memphis.edu/~kenichls/1301HinduCreationCaste.html)
Japanese Creation Myth (http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/kojiki.html)
Comanche Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/ariel.htm#COMANCHE)
Chinese Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/ariel.htm#CHINESE)
Chelan Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/miranda.htm#CHELAN)
Pima Creation Myth (http://www.aaanativearts.com/article579.html)
Mayan Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/cordelia.htm)
Miwok Creation Myth (http://www.wsu.edu/~delahoyd/creation.miwok.html)
Scandinavian (Norse) (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/creation.html)Creation Myths (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/creation.html)
Salish Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/oberon.htm#SALISH)
Australian Aboriginal (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/miranda.htm#AUS)Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/miranda.htm#AUS)
Hopi Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/umbriel.htm#HOPI)
Tahitian Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/ophelia.htm#TAHITI)
Yokut Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/ophelia.htm#YOKUT)
Comanche Creation Myth (http://www.earthbow.com/native/comanche/creation.htm)
Egyptian Creation Myths (http://members.aol.com/egyptart/crea.html)
African - Mande, Yoruba (http://www.fandm.edu/departments/Anthropology/Bastian/ANT269/cosmo.html)Creation Myths (http://www.fandm.edu/departments/Anthropology/Bastian/ANT269/cosmo.html)
Micmac Creation Myth (http://www.bigisland.com/~stony/lore21.html)
Lakota Creation Myth (http://www.indianlegend.com/lakota/lakota_001.htm)
Several Creation Stories (http://wintersteel.homestead.com/files/Folklore/India_Creation_Myths.htm)India, Romania, Mongol, etc.. (http://wintersteel.homestead.com/files/Folklore/India_Creation_Myths.htm)
Chinese Creation / Flood (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/chinaflood.html)Myth (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/chinaflood.html)
Assyrian / Babylonian (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Resources/Ane/enumaA.html)Creation Myth (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Resources/Ane/enumaA.html)
Maori Creation Myth (http://www.laits.utexas.edu/doherty/plan2/liangcreation.html)
Aztec Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/miranda.htm#AZTEC)
Digueno Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/ariel.htm#DIGUENO)
Apache Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/miranda.htm#APACHE)
African Creation Myths (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/miranda.htm#AFRICAN)
Dakota Creation Myth (http://www.bluecloud.org/32.html)
Hungarian Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/oberon.htm#HUNGARIAN)
Iroquois Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/oberon.htm#IROQUOIS)
Inuit Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/umbriel.htm#INU)
Huron Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/umbriel.htm#HUR)
Hawaiian Creation Myth (http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/ariel.htm#HAW)

[Beerina]

Depends on the size of the angels, the size of the pin and whether the angels are coordinated or not.:D

Well, see, you could be wrong. If the angels are mutually ethereal, they could dance in the same location simultaneously. Hence the limit would be the total number of angels in existence, at least up to their fractional weight upon the pin to what it can support in that gravitational field. Oh, I just thought of something. It's possible that, though ethereal, their phase-state may occupy a small but finite amount of real-world real estate, and hence a finite number of overlapping angels may be able to occupy a sincle spot.

Assuming this, you'd probably do better with thinner angels, both for the space and the weight issue. :teacher:

[truethat]

We're not arguing over creation myths. I'm analyzing a text and the meaning. Sorry that's so bonkers for people to deal with.

[Dancing David]

Again a debate on the philosophical and symbolic meanings in Genesis. Again I say, there was a story, it might have had meaning thousands of years before Genesis was written. The story changed over time. It differs little from other Creation myths. Modern man seeks to attach significance and meaning to the nuances of the story to make sense of it.

Can you imagine debating the philosophy of why another god put "turtles all the way down"?


;)

No NO NOOO!

There are four elephants and then the Great Cosmic Turtle A'Tuin.

:)

[Dancing David]

We're not arguing over creation myths. I'm analyzing a text and the meaning. Sorry that's so bonkers for people to deal with.

Perhaps the Qabbalah will have more answers. AL is the creator, YHVH destroyed the first creation.

Adam and Eve are incarnated spirits who were conjoined in some myths.

[Dark Jaguar]

I'd say the snake wasn't up to any good either. If God's the tyranical dictator, Satan seems to be the leader of the resistance who secretly just wants the throne for himself.

[Slimething]

We're not arguing over creation myths. I'm analyzing a text and the meaning. Sorry that's so bonkers for people to deal with.

It's not too difficult but you're working with a crowd that believes the bible is a fairy tale. No one takes fairy tales too literally. I agree with your argument as it's logical but, in the end, so what?

It would be nifty to trot this out if ever confronted with a bible literalist, though! That would be a lot of fun. :cool:

[CapelDodger]

As a gardener myself, I wonder why have the trees there in the first place? I wouldn't plant yew-trees in a cow-pasture. Has this god no sense of responsibilty?

[CapelDodger]

I'd say the snake wasn't up to any good either. If God's the tyranical dictator, Satan seems to be the leader of the resistance who secretly just wants the throne for himself.

There's a fine line between initiative and insubordination.

[CapelDodger]

Perhaps the Qabbalah will have more answers. AL is the creator, YHVH destroyed the first creation.

The way I read it, the demiurge created the material world, which is essentially evil, while El created the spiritual world, which is also essentially evil. I call this concept Sado-Manichaeism.

[articulett]

How come god did cryptically test satan's faith... satan didn't have to "believe" or have faith-- god made him and then showed himself and still his "free will" (made by god) seems to have damned him... or is he just the guardsman of gods torment ground... god invented hell, right. And why wouldn't you want your beloved children to "bite from the tree of knowledge"-- why entrap them unless you're kind of a sick MF... Why not mention DNA... and how human were Adam and Eve? How are Neanderthal's related? Talking snakes? What language did they speak? Was god indistinguishable from a voice in their head the way he is to people now a-days.

I can't begin to fathom what the story means... and it's not because I'm bonkers-- it's because the story is bonkers for anyone who thinks.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, let's argue over ancient creation myths. Not argue, Rand, discuss the philosophy and symbolism in the story.

My point was people are attributing meaning to stuff that might not have any meaning.

[Dancing David]

I'd say the snake wasn't up to any good either. If God's the tyranical dictator, Satan seems to be the leader of the resistance who secretly just wants the throne for himself.


Or it is a cipher for snake worshipping cults.

[Dancing David]

The way I read it, the demiurge created the material world, which is essentially evil, while El created the spiritual world, which is also essentially evil. I call this concept Sado-Manichaeism.

Great pun!

"I think Evil turned out rather well , don't you?" -God
Time Bandits

[Dancing David]

How come god did cryptically test satan's faith... satan didn't have to "believe" or have faith-- god made him and then showed himself and still his "free will" (made by god) seems to have damned him... or is he just the guardsman of gods torment ground... god invented hell, right. And why wouldn't you want your beloved children to "bite from the tree of knowledge"-- why entrap them unless you're kind of a sick MF... Why not mention DNA... and how human were Adam and Eve? How are Neanderthal's related? Talking snakes? What language did they speak? Was god indistinguishable from a voice in their head the way he is to people now a-days.

I can't begin to fathom what the story means... and it's not because I'm bonkers-- it's because the story is bonkers for anyone who thinks.

AL and YHVH were not the only creators?