Do athiests prefer The Catholic Church to Co$

[AgeGap]

It is interesting that most atheists are glad that it happens to the church of scientology, but would give a desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church.

This a a quote put up in the "latest commentary issues " part of the Forum. It was in response to a Belgian prosecutor recommending that the Co$ should stand trial for fraud and extortion.

Stand up all the athiests who would give a "desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church".

I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>.

How do others stand?

[Jimbo07]

I know (have known) enough "well-meaning" Catholic priests to not directly label it a scam the same as Co$. You have to be pretty disingenuous to label all religion, at all times, as severely fraudulent.

What are the "good works" that Scientology does?

[ImaginalDisc]

That's like asking me if I'd rather be shot at point blank range with a rifle, or a shotgun.

[Rasmus]

This a a quote put up in the "latest commentary issues " part of the Forum. It was in response to a Belgian prosecutor recommending that the Co$ should stand trial for fraud and extortion.

Stand up all the athiests who would give a "desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church".

I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>.

How do others stand?

I would stand up. It would make my cheering look more authentic.

[c4ts]

Catholicism is one of the greatest intellectual frauds of all time. In a court of law, I'm afraid that there are no laws which exist to encompass the extent of their fraud and extortion. If the Pope told them all the moon was made of green cheese, they'd eat moon rocks with their crackers. The only good thing about the Catholic church is that their rule was never as absolute as they would like to believe, and so freedom of thought developed in spite of them.

[Nucular]

Depends who would be indicted in such a move. I'm sure there are Catholic priests who genuinely believe what they preach, just as there are Scientologists who genuinely believe what they preach. But the higher up the food chain you go in either church, the less sad I'd be to see it happen.

[scratchy]

I would be happy to see any part of the catholic church stand trial for fraud and exorsion, if and when cc commits any such act. And as big as that church is i would be surprised if anything like that never happened somewhere. With any such case its not the church itself that stands trial, but the persons involved.

[Nucular]

I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>.

By the way AgeGap, I believe it's a flying <Rule 10> you're not giving here, these days ;)

[AgeGap]

By the way AgeGap, I believe it's a flying <Rule 10> you're not giving here, these days ;)

Mea culpa, do i need sackcloth and ashes or auditing. Hmmm, i think i will start a poll.:o

[ImaginalDisc]

Mea culpa, do i need sackcloth and ashes or auditing. Hmmm, i think i will start a poll.:o

We prefer flowing chocolate fondue fountains by way of contrition.

By "we" I mean "I."

By "prefer" I mean "will find any excuse to ask for."

[Gurdur]

I would say that today the Co$ is much worse than the Catholic Church.

[ponderingturtle]

I would like to see the catholic church having to answer for its crimes. Not likely happen as most of the worst things that they do are not against laws, or they can use their status as a nation to get immunity from their crimes.

There is no church that I would have serious issues with them being charged with crimes, provided the the crime is not something like "being a member of X church" or something like that.

Basicly I think churches should be treated like any other private social organization

[ponderingturtle]

I would say that today the Co$ is much worse than the Catholic Church.

Hard to say. The Co$ is not spreading lies about how condoms are totaly ineffective for anything in africa, so I would think that the actions of the catholic chruch are causing a higher international death toll than the Co$.

But in developed nations the Co$ is a bigger harm to their citizens.

[Meadmaker]

I would not put the Catholics in the same category as the Church of Scientology. I would cheer prosecution of the Church of Scientology, and I would complain about similar prosecution of the Catholic Church as a violation of human rights.

[ImaginalDisc]

I would not put the Catholics in the same category as the Church of Scientology. I would cheer prosecution of the Church of Scientology, and I would complain about similar prosecution of the Catholic Church as a violation of human rights.

Yes, how dare people criticise an institution which lies about condoms to people in jeopardy of contracting AIDs, causing untold death and suffering.

[Gurdur]

....The Co$ is not spreading lies about how condoms are totaly ineffective for anything in africa, so I would think that the actions of the catholic chruch are causing a higher international death toll than the Co$.

I am absolutely sure that if the Co$ could work out some way of massively ripping off Third World citizens and stealing their cash, the Co$ would. Just a pity for the Co$ that Third World citizens have so little cash.

[ponderingturtle]

I am absolutely sure that if the Co$ could work out some way of massively ripping off Third World citizens and stealing their cash, the Co$ would. Just a pity for the Co$ that Third World citizens have so little cash.

Oh I agree with that, but the catholic church is spending money to lie to people on a large scale with very dangerous lies.

Taking someones money is not the same as lieing to them and when they act on those lies causeing them to get HIV. I hold the later as a larger crime.

[fuelair]

This a a quote put up in the "latest commentary issues " part of the Forum. It was in response to a Belgian prosecutor recommending that the Co$ should stand trial for fraud and extortion.

Stand up all the athiests who would give a "desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church".

I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>.

How do others stand?
I do not care which Church - but my rule is tolerate if it has been around for 500 years. Do not care regardless.

[tsg]

Asking if I prefer Catholicism or CO$ is like asking if I prefer Poodle crap or Doberman crap.

[krazyKemist]

That's like asking me if I'd rather be shot at point blank range with a rifle, or a shotgun.

Rifle. Somewhat less messy.:D

the Kemist

[Mobyseven]

I would not put the Catholics in the same category as the Church of Scientology. I would cheer prosecution of the Church of Scientology, and I would complain about similar prosecution of the Catholic Church as a violation of human rights.

Why do you say that?

[TuftedPuffin]

The modern Catholic Church is better than the modern Co$, as the modern Co$ is much more authoritarian, violent, paranoid, moneymaking, etc. However, I support either being prosecuted on the merits of its actions. As this is easier to do with scientology, I tend to support their persecution more, as it's almost always justified.

[Civilized Worm]

This is unfair, the catholics had a head start!

[Madalch]

Two words- free wine.

[linusrichard]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the German Constitution has some provision for freedom of religion. For all its many serious flaws, Catholicism is a religion, and Germany recognizes this. Scientology may or may not be a religion, but the German government has decided that it is not. I don't think it really matters if this decision is right or wrong; what matters is that it is reasonable, and I think it is.

So, while I think it's hyperbole to suggest that I would "give a desperate cry for human rights" if the German government treated Catholics like they're treating Scientologists, I would recognize that there is something wrong with it, based on the constitution of that country.

[Meadmaker]

Why do you say that?

fuelair probably said it as well as anyone, with the "500 year rule".

I don't think the Catholic Church is engaged in anything other than well meaning superstition, and most of it is just traditional at that. Perhaps I'm being unfair to the Church of Scientology, but I'm fairly certain the founder created it as a deliberately fraudulent scheme, and that continues to this day.

After I left the Catholic Church, I don't recall any harassment, intimidation, threats, or calls for the faithful to avoid contact with me. (A tiny little bit of that last one, but never by name.) I've heard all of those things associated with the Church of Scientology.

Or, as I sometimes put it, just for emphasis, when someone badmouths the RCC, "That's my mother you're talking about!"

[Gurdur]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the German Constitution has some provision for freedom of religion. For all its many serious flaws, Catholicism is a religion, and Germany recognizes this. Scientology may or may not be a religion, but the German government has decided that it is not. I don't think it really matters if this decision is right or wrong; what matters is that it is reasonable, and I think it is.


All very correct and very well-said.

[articulett]

I was raised Catholic, and I thank it for my eventual atheism. I am against the notion that faith and feelings are good ways to know stuff-- that belief is a "value" and that religion make people better or more moral. All belief systems are "Scientology" to me. They are all mock worthy. They all manipulate the trusting. Catholics have been spawning for eons and so have caused many generations of manipulation and human suffering at the hand of their lies disguised as "higher truths". Scientology hasn't had time to do the damage yet. But I find all dismantling of faith a positive thing for those who have had such memes inflicted upon them and who are afraid to "lose faith"

I think all faiths proffer lies disguised as higher truth, and all believers are victims-- many who go on to victimize others in the supposed name of this supposed "higher truth" they've been told they been "gifted" to receive.

[c4ts]

I am absolutely sure that if the Co$ could work out some way of massively ripping off Third World citizens and stealing their cash, the Co$ would. Just a pity for the Co$ that Third World citizens have so little cash.

There does seem to be a flaw in operation. Scientology goes for the middle class and wealthy victims, bleeds them dry, and discards them when they can't afford to stay in the group. Most Third World citizens would be kept out from the start. Sure, CoS could jump into some dreadfully poor region and take away all their meds in the name of Xenu, but the operation could not be sustained long enough to do a lot of damage.

[TuftedPuffin]

There does seem to be a flaw in operation. Scientology goes for the middle class and wealthy victims, bleeds them dry, and discards them when they can't afford to stay in the group. Most Third World citizens would be kept out from the start. Sure, CoS could jump into some dreadfully poor region and take away all their meds in the name of Xenu, but the operation could not be sustained long enough to do a lot of damage.

Have you seen the Scientology in Harlem thread?

[ponderingturtle]

fuelair probably said it as well as anyone, with the "500 year rule".

I don't think the Catholic Church is engaged in anything other than well meaning superstition, and most of it is just traditional at that. Perhaps I'm being unfair to the Church of Scientology, but I'm fairly certain the founder created it as a deliberately fraudulent scheme, and that continues to this day.

So it doesn't matter if your lies kill if you mean well?

[JetLeg]

I was raised Catholic, and I thank it for my eventual atheism. I am against the notion that faith and feelings are good ways to know stuff-- that belief is a "value" and that religion make people better or more moral. All belief systems are "Scientology" to me. They are all mock worthy. They all manipulate the trusting. Catholics have been spawning for eons and so have caused many generations of manipulation and human suffering at the hand of their lies disguised as "higher truths". Scientology hasn't had time to do the damage yet. But I find all dismantling of faith a positive thing for those who have had such memes inflicted upon them and who are afraid to "lose faith"

I think all faiths proffer lies disguised as higher truth, and all believers are victims-- many who go on to victimize others in the supposed name of this supposed "higher truth" they've been told they been "gifted" to receive.

So, do you think that foundations like JREF, CSICOP, CSI should recieve governmental support?

And how do you respond to the fact that whenever the government tried to deal with religion, the result was oppression?

[geni]

Catholicism is one of the greatest intellectual frauds of all time. In a court of law, I'm afraid that there are no laws which exist to encompass the extent of their fraud and extortion. If the Pope told them all the moon was made of green cheese, they'd eat moon rocks with their crackers.

Nope. The composition of moon rock is not a matter of faith or morality thus there cannot be an infallible statement made on the matter.

[geni]

So it doesn't matter if your lies kill if you mean well?

Well first you would have to prove they are lies. Lies means that the person knows the statment is false.

Secondly you have have to show that any significant number of people have ever paid much attention to the churches statements in that area.

[ImaginalDisc]

I don't think the Catholic Church is engaged in anything other than well meaning superstition, and most of it is just traditional at that.


Lying to people about condoms and birth control is not a superstition.

[ponderingturtle]

Well first you would have to prove they are lies. Lies means that the person knows the statment is false.

So claiming that condoms are so porous that they do nothing to stop impregnation let alone the HIV virus is something that you think that they actual believe?

Secondly you have have to show that any significant number of people have ever paid much attention to the churches statements in that area.

So lying to people about their public heal issues is fine because no on in Africa listens to the catholic church? Given how many people listen to naturopaths in this country and stop their cancer treatments for what ever crap they are peddling, I see no reason why the church with its infallibility and all would not be listened to very strongly.

So then the Co$ and the Phelps's really are good because they believe what they are preaching as well? Prove that the Co$ does not believe in what they preach.

[ponderingturtle]

Lying to people about condoms and birth control is not a superstition.

Of course it is, they want the sinners to get their divinely ordained punishment for their activities.

As for wives getting infected by husbands, it is of course her fault because she was not up to her wifely duties.

[tsg]

Nope. The composition of moon rock is not a matter of faith or morality thus there cannot be an infallible statement made on the matter.

Neither is evolution but there seems to be a bit of controversy about that.

[c4ts]

Nope. The composition of moon rock is not a matter of faith or morality thus there cannot be an infallible statement made on the matter.

And just the other day he was telling them all that love is not an emotion.

[geni]

Neither is evolution but there seems to be a bit of controversy about that.

Controversy != infallible statement. Actualy that appears to have gone away again so I suspect the church will leave it at JPII's statement for.

[tsg]

Controversy != infallible statement. Actualy that appears to have gone away again so I suspect the church will leave it at JPII's statement for.

But the Pope did make a statement (http://www.origins.org/mc/resources/pope.html). If it wasn't a matter of faith, then why did he make it?

[geni]

So claiming that condoms are so porous that they do nothing to stop impregnation let alone the HIV virus is something that you think that they actual believe?

They didn't say the former. The pope is not a materials scientist.


So lying to people about their public heal issues is fine because no on in Africa listens to the catholic church? Given how many people listen to naturopaths in this country and stop their cancer treatments for what ever crap they are peddling, I see no reason why the church with its infallibility and all would not be listened to very strongly.

Statements about the permability of latex would not fall under the doctrain of infallibility.

If catholic teachings were followed the HIV infection rate would probably drop significantly (we don't know because there is still some uncertianty on transmission routes).


So then the Co$ and the Phelps's really are good because they believe what they are preaching as well? Prove that the Co$ does not believe in what they preach.

Well first you would have to figure out what they preach. Of course the existance of freezone stongly suggests that some at least do.

No the problem with scientology is not their belifes. I doubt anyone would try to outlaw freezone (well other than Co$). No the problem is their actions.

[geni]

But the Pope did make a statement (http://www.origins.org/mc/resources/pope.html). If it wasn't a matter of faith, then why did he make it?

That would be JPII's statement. Why shouldn't he? In adition that statement deals very firmly with faith. Look at section 6.

[ponderingturtle]

They didn't say the former. The pope is not a materials scientist.

Cardinal Trujillo suggested that HIV can permeate microscopic pores in condoms. Calling the use of condoms “a form of Russian roulette,” Trujillo stated: “The AIDS virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon [spermatozoa]. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the ‘net’ that is formed by the condom.”42 Trujillo’s claim was not new

And the church did not say he was full of crap.

Please learn more about how the church blatantly lies before you defend them.

link (http://hrw.org/backgrounder/hivaids/condoms1204/3.htm)

This guy was also on this list people where considering for the new Pope.



Statements about the permability of latex would not fall under the doctrain of infallibility.

And how many people think they are going to be lied to by the church with such blatant lies

If catholic teachings were followed the HIV infection rate would probably drop significantly (we don't know because there is still some uncertianty on transmission routes).

So that makes it ok to lie about how ineffective condoms are? You don't hold much stock in providing people with accurate information



Well first you would have to figure out what they preach. Of course the existance of freezone stongly suggests that some at least do.

No the problem with scientology is not their belifes. I doubt anyone would try to outlaw freezone (well other than Co$). No the problem is their actions.

And lying to people about how condoms do nothing in Africa is not an action you consider to be immoral?

[tsg]

That would be JPII's statement. Why shouldn't he? In adition that statement deals very firmly with faith. Look at section 6.

Then how does a statement on the composition of moon rocks not qualify as a matter of faith but a statement on the veracity of evolution does?

[geni]

Then how does a statement on the composition of moon rocks not qualify as a matter of faith but a statement on the veracity of evolution does?

A statement on the veracity of evolution does not and indeed could not be part of an infallible statement (none of that statement is infallible in any case).

In the history of the catholic church there have been a total of 2 infallible statements (actually it could be higher but mainstream theological opinion is that it is not).

[geni]

And the church did not say he was full of crap.

Please learn more about how the church blatantly lies before you defend them.

link (http://hrw.org/backgrounder/hivaids/condoms1204/3.htm)

[/quote]

I knew about the above. The word is for the moment untruths. None of the individuals in question are materials scientists.



This guy was also on this list people where considering for the new Pope.


The list was Cardinal Ratzinger and a bunch of also rans. Other than Ratzinger
lists were guesswork in any case heh even saw Cormac Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor on one of them.


So that makes it ok to lie about how ineffective condoms are? You don't hold much stock in providing people with accurate information

Neither do you. Or you would be useing the word untruths rather than lies.


And lying to people about how condoms do nothing in Africa is not an action you consider to be immoral?

Is unknowingly being in factal error immoral?

[ponderingturtle]

I knew about the above. The word is for the moment untruths. None of the individuals in question are materials scientists.

So the catholic church has a free pass to make up what ever they want, and claim it as truth under the grounds that this is all mistakes and that they are not professionally qualified?

That added to the diplomatic immunity that they can manage to protect their own, damn is that a great racket.

No responsibility, no need to find out any information before claims are made, legal immunity if you get high enough in the ranks.


Is unknowingly being in factal error immoral?

So fact checking when making policy decisions is too much work. Kind of like no lies from the bush administration, as they can't be bothered to read reports and such, too much work.

Also if you knew about the statement then you are saying you lied when you said

They didn't say the former

Either you knew that they said that condoms are not effective at stopping sperm and thus lied here or you lied in the first quote where you claimed to know about that.

[tsg]

A statement on the veracity of evolution does not and indeed could not be part of an infallible statement (none of that statement is infallible in any case).

In the history of the catholic church there have been a total of 2 infallible statements (actually it could be higher but mainstream theological opinion is that it is not).

The original point was not whether or not a statement on the composition of moon rocks qualified as a technical and official "infallible statement", but whether or not the followers of Catholicism would treat it as truth. While moon rocks being green cheese might be a bit of a stretch (and I suspect it was largely made facetiously), I bet dollars to doughnuts that if JPII's statement said evolution was false a good number of Catholics would believe it, "infallible statement" or not.

[pspaddict]

Both institutions are dangerous and corrupt. There's really no "bad" and "worse" in my mind.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Look, what this person meant was that most JREFers are ardent civil libertarians and would defend the Catholic Church from all sorts of litigation, on the basis of freedom of religion and other civil liberties. On the other hand, whenever someone sues or censures the CoS, JREFers just don't have much sympathy.

Which is true.

[Gurdur]

... There's really no "bad" and "worse" in my mind.


Seems a very impractible position to me, and one based on a fallacy of lack of sliding scales.

[ponderingturtle]

Seems a very impractible position to me, and one based on a fallacy of lack of sliding scales.

But in this comparison it is hard to determine worse, because the catholic church does things that both help and harm people much more than Co$ and on a much larger scale.

[JetLeg]

"fallacy of lack of sliding scales." what's that?

[tsg]

Look, what this person meant was that most JREFers are ardent civil libertarians and would defend the Catholic Church from all sorts of litigation, on the basis of freedom of religion and other civil liberties. On the other hand, whenever someone sues or censures the CoS, JREFers just don't have much sympathy.

Which is true.

I don't agree that is what he meant considering he used the word "atheists" and not "JREFers", and I also don't agree that it is true. If the Catholic Church was guilty of the same kinds of things the COS is being prosecuted for, I don't think there would be much sympathy for them, either. In fact, I don't remember very many JREFers coming to the Catholic Church's defense during the investigations of their pedophile priests.

[MortFurd]

Both institutions are dangerous and corrupt. There's really no "bad" and "worse" in my mind.

COS is worse, in my opinion. Both are dangerous, both to some degree corrupt (and there's a big discussion all by itself - which of the two is MORE corrupt) BUT...

Society has had longer to adjust to the presence of the catholic church than it has had to adapt to the presence of COS. Also, the catholic church has had a good bit of time to become somewhat more moderate and less rabid in their preachings and doings.

COS is still rabid and immoderate - it takes a smack down to make them change course.

Sort of like societal parasites and symbionts. The host (society) has had a chance to acclimate to catholicism, and catholicism has adapted to something that society can accept. Catholicism costs the host (society) some effort and money, but catholicism also gives something back to society - they do provide some services to the communities. I'd call catholicism a societal symbiont - though we'd probably be better off without it.

COS hasn't moderated any at all, and sees the host as a source of enrichment. Take what it needs and the host be damned. I'd call COS a societal parasite, a drain on society that returns nothing. We'd definitely be better of without it.

COS might (if it survives that long) become moderate and society might adapt to it, but then it wouldn't be COS as we know it today - just as catholicism isn't today what it was hundreds of years ago.

[MortFurd]

But in this comparison it is hard to determine worse, because the catholic church does things that both help and harm people much more than Co$ and on a much larger scale.
The catholics at least try to do what is right and to help others do what is right. Their definition of "right" is at odds with a lot of things that many of us would call right (preaching against condoms in areas of the world with high AIDS rates, for example,) but there's at least an attempt to do something for others. Of course, there's that old saw about the road to hell and good intentions...

COS doesn't have even that little bit, though. It's all about recruiting more members to bilk. Sort of the ultimate pyramid scheme but with pseudo-religious trappings and loads of far-out woo.

[geni]

Look, what this person meant was that most JREFers are ardent civil libertarians and would defend the Catholic Church from all sorts of litigation, on the basis of freedom of religion and other civil liberties. On the other hand, whenever someone sues or censures the CoS, JREFers just don't have much sympathy.

Which is true.]


Not really. As long as the litigation stoped short of sueing the catholic church for being the catholic church (and no laws were passed specificaly targeted at catholics) I doubt anyone would really have a problem.

[Gurdur]

"fallacy of lack of sliding scales." what's that?


Seemed clear enough to me, and judging by their posts others seem to understand it, but you can equally describe it as a fallacy of false dilemma, fallacy of the excluded middle, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) black and white thinking, either/or fallacy, or bifurcation fallacy.

When pspaddict says the following:
Both institutions are dangerous and corrupt. There's really no "bad" and "worse" in my mind.


then it, on appearences, looks like pspaddict is making an equivalence between the Catholics and the Co$ based only on either:
"dangerous and corrupt" or "not dangerous and courrupt".

I'm saying that if appearences are correct, then it is a bifurcation fallacy that does not allow of differences along sliding scales. Or IOW one can actually be worse than the other, and it is far more practicable to judge matters based on just which one is worse.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Not really. As long as the litigation stoped short of sueing the catholic church for being the catholic church (and no laws were passed specificaly targeted at catholics) I doubt anyone would really have a problem.

If world governments censured the RC the way they do the CoS, there would be outrage from skeptics. With Scientology, though, hardly anyone feels they have to defend it on grounds of civil liberties.

You see this all the time in discussions of Scientology on the JREF. Here's the pattern: world government or institution says or does something against Scientology. John Travolta isn't allowed to speak about it on TV or Tom Cruise isn't allowed to film at a military base, something like that. Someone puts a thread up about it. Some JREFers cheer and a handful reply it's against religious freedom, it's discrimination, against freedom of speech or say that, practically speaking, the best thing to do with Scientology is to let them make fools of themselves. The other side says it's not a religion but a scam and a cult and that it's spying on governments so why would you protect it and say governments should control it. Contrasts and comparisons are drawn to the Roman Catholic Church and other government sanctioned religious institutions then some German posters get ticked and start laying out long texts of German law and the thread descends into a free-for-all mudslinging.

Point is, I do think people who are otherwise civil libertarians are much more comfortable with censure against Scientology than they are with laws against mainstream religion. They, for one reason or another, don't seem to think freedom of speech or freedom of religion applies to Scientology.

Edit: which isn't to say I don't think the CoS is looney tunes.

[tsg]

If world governments censured the RC the way they do the CoS, there would be outrage from skeptics.

How many skeptics came to the defense of the Catholic Church when they were being investigated for their handling of pedophile priests?

[AgeGap]

More drift than the last Fast and the Furious.:)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

How many skeptics came to the defense of the Catholic Church when they were being investigated for their handling of pedophile priests?

I meant with civil liberties issues, not out and out criminal cases. I'm sure most skeptics here would be against how the Chinese government controls the Catholic Church in China, how the USSR and its satellites suppressed it, et al.

[tsg]

I meant with civil liberties issues, not out and out criminal cases.

That's pretty much the point. The COS is being prosecuted for criminal activities. The lack of support for the COS in this case isn't indicative of any skeptic/atheist/JREF favoritism for one religion over the other.

[Belgian thought]

Re:; Scientology goes for the middle class and wealthy victims, bleeds them dry, and discards them when they can't afford to stay in the group.

I believe the Catholic Church did the same, if you look at how monasteries and nunneries were founded in the middle ages. i.e. the rich sent one of their offsprings to these institutions in order to get some form of salvation/less hassle from the pope.

Re; the CoS, The Belgian legal system is maintaining its true secular role. In Belgium, no Church, has any power and thus no church including the CoS can be deemed exempt from prosecution from their actions if these actions are seen to be against the welfare of man.

I heard one interesting fact about Belgium's secular stance is that there are, as far as I know, no religious burial grounds in Belgium. So to say, believe what you will in your life, when dead you are! In my own experience, Belgian cemeteries are quite fascinating since you will find Christian buried next to Muslims, Jews and soon enough CoS J

Oh and another one, homosexuality was recognised and non-penalised in the territories that are now know as Belgium as far back as the 18th Century

Belgium – you Rock!

[Deus Ex Machina]

This a a quote put up in the "latest commentary issues " part of the Forum. It was in response to a Belgian prosecutor recommending that the Co$ should stand trial for fraud and extortion.

Stand up all the athiests who would give a "desperate cry for human rights, if it had been the catholic church".

I am an athiest who wouldn't give a flying <Rule 8>.

How do others stand?

as an atheist and ex member of the CofS let me say that *any* religion that after careful and lengthy investigation was charged with offences - I would be happier than a clam at hoi toid. (pun intended).

The fact that the CofS has absolutely no, repeat, no societal value whatsoever is beside the point.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

That's pretty much the point. The COS is being prosecuted for criminal activities. The lack of support for the COS in this case isn't indicative of any skeptic/atheist/JREF favoritism for one religion over the other.

Hey, I've always said that if they break the law, arrest them by all means but the politics some governments practise upon it are unfair.

[articulett]

as an atheist and ex member of the CofS let me say that *any* religion that after careful and lengthy investigation was charged with offences - I would be happier than a clam at hoi toid. (pun intended).

The fact that the CofS has absolutely no, repeat, no societal value whatsoever is beside the point.

An ex CoS-- really? For a long time? I don't think I've met one before? I bet you have some interesting stories. I'm just a boring old former Catholic. But I most certainly do not prefer Catholicism over Scientology-- I disbelieve all religions equally and find them all manipulative.

[geni]

Re:; Scientology goes for the middle class and wealthy victims, bleeds them dry, and discards them when they can't afford to stay in the group.

I believe the Catholic Church did the same, if you look at how monasteries and nunneries were founded in the middle ages. i.e. the rich sent one of their offsprings to these institutions in order to get some form of salvation/less hassle from the pope.

Re; the CoS, The Belgian legal system is maintaining its true secular role. In Belgium, no Church, has any power and thus no church including the CoS can be deemed exempt from prosecution from their actions if these actions are seen to be against the welfare of man.

I heard one interesting fact about Belgium's secular stance is that there are, as far as I know, no religious burial grounds in Belgium. So to say, believe what you will in your life, when dead you are! In my own experience, Belgian cemeteries are quite fascinating since you will find Christian buried next to Muslims, Jews and soon enough CoS J

Oh and another one, homosexuality was recognised and non-penalised in the territories that are now know as Belgium as far back as the 18th Century

Belgium – you Rock!

Belgium congo.

[PBTree]

Have to think the Micks are the worst. I mean if n% of priests in the world are disgusting paedophiles, then it must mean that n% of bishops are too, then n% of cardinals etc etc., all the way up to the old fella on top. How can you trust any of them.

Realise the Co$ are pretty bad but not heard about them doing the deed with children yet.

Sue both their ar..s would be my view

[Kochanski]

I prefer neither.

I would cheer the prosecution of any crimes by any relgious group or religious leaders. A respect of the separation of church and state should not mean that religion gets a free ride and immunity from prosecution of actual crimes. They should not be above and beyond the law, unfortunately I think law enforcement is reluctant to pursue them because they fear the public reaction to it and that the ensuing legal battle will cripple them.

I cheer the Belgians pursuit of the Co$ because I think that any chink in the armor of untouchability of religion by law is a positive step.

[Complexity]

I think they're equally horrid.

[Btodd]

Co$ is much worse in my mind. I hate to parrot the evolution/creation terminology, but if Catholicism is sinister, it is only because it has evolved to be so, but the Co$ was designed that way. Not to mention the vast difference in how each one deals with criticism. I've never heard of the Catholic Church passing out flyers in a person's neighborhood that labeled them a child molestor or a religious bigot. And that's not simply the tactic of a confused Scientologist, that's dogmatic policy reserved for effective critics.

The Co$ is more destructive to people and society in its design, but simply has too few followers to compare with Catholicism in overall impact.