Friend using homeopathy

[IMST]

I recently saw a friend of mine using a oral spray after an athletic event. I asked her what it was and found out that it was to prevent sore muscles. After the alarm bells in my head quieted down I asked to see it. Sure enough, homeopathic remedy (only 30X). She saw my face and said she didn't want to hear about it because it works for her. I let it go at the time, but I want to follow up.
My idea is to prevent her from wasting more money on it by telling her to just refill it with pure water (or alchohal I'm not sure how it's prepared) and shake it up when it's 9/10 empty. Not only will she save money, but it will become more effective every time she does this.
That is fair based on the rules of homeopathy, right? Any homeopaths want to disagree?

[IXP]

That's a great idea! I hope your friend doesn't overdose when it gets too strong.

IXP

[Aeia]

Very smart.

[Amapola]

:D I was just reading Skeptical Inquirer (volume 31, no. 5, Sept/Oct 2007) and there is an article this month by Joe Nickell about "John of God". This John of God fellow passes out "Holy Water" to help cure people. Nickell says he was told to just top it off with plain tap water when the level gets low because the original water will "energize" the new tap water. (However Nickell had the water tested and it showed absolutely no special properties. I'm sure you're all surprised.)

So, not only is this a fair idea, one of these so-called healers has already come up with it! Good thinking! :)

[Monza]

:D I was just reading Skeptical Inquirer (volume 31, no. 5, Sept/Oct 2007) and there is an article this month by Joe Nickell about "John of God". This John of God fellow passes out "Holy Water" to help cure people. Nickell says he was told to just top it off with plain tap water when the level gets low because the original water will "energize" the new tap water. (However Nickell had the water tested and it showed absolutely no special properties. I'm sure you're all surprised.)

So, not only is this a fair idea, one of these so-called healers has already come up with it! Good thinking! :)

Randi had a similar experience during his trip to Russia to investigate their psychics. He tried to set up a double blind experiement to determine if one could identify "energized" water. When the experiment failed, the believers stated that the energized water must have been too close to the normal water and energized it too. Ultimately, Randi did discover the one true power of energized water...it can't be tested.

Back to the original topic, perhaps a brief explanation of dilutions would help. I don't think many people really appreciate what a 30X dilution is. Somewhere on the net I once found some information that put it into perspective. It was something like ?? dilution equates to one drop of remedy in the Pacific Ocean and similar comparisons.

[rjh01]

Do not tell her what a 30X is. Make her find out and explain it to you. This includes 'memory of water.'

[Mojo]

I was just reading Skeptical Inquirer (volume 31, no. 5, Sept/Oct 2007) and there is an article this month by Joe Nickell about "John of God". This John of God fellow passes out "Holy Water" to help cure people. Nickell says he was told to just top it off with plain tap water when the level gets low because the original water will "energize" the new tap water. (However Nickell had the water tested and it showed absolutely no special properties. I'm sure you're all surprised.)

So, not only is this a fair idea, one of these so-called healers has already come up with it! Good thinking!


In fact, homoeopaths already do this: they call it "grafting" (see the entry for grafting here (http://www.wholehealthnow.com/homeopathy_pro/pro_glossary.html), for example). They claim that if you put a potentised pill in with a lot of sugar pills, it will somehow transfer its magical properties to the blanks. The page I linked to says it can also be done with liquid remedies, which I hadn't heard before.

I'm surprised they don't publicise this more: it would save their patients a lot of money!

[Mojo]

My idea is to prevent her from wasting more money on it by telling her to just refill it with pure water (or alchohal I'm not sure how it's prepared) and shake it up when it's 9/10 empty. Not only will she save money, but it will become more effective every time she does this.
That is fair based on the rules of homeopathy, right? Any homeopaths want to disagree?


If "grafting" works with liquid potencies (as the glossary I linked to above claims), then the shaking will be unneccessary, I think. To produce more of the 30X remedy, just top it up with whatever solvent is used and off you go again.

[steenkh]

If "grafting" works with liquid potencies (as the glossary I linked to above claims), then the shaking will be unneccessary, I think. To produce more of the 30X remedy, just top it up with whatever solvent is used and off you go again.
I think you are right. Homoeopaths differentiate between dilution and potency. Even though the grafted water will be even more dilute, the potency will stay the same.

BTW, is there anybody who knows the German term for homoeopathic "grafting"? I see plenty of (skeptic) articles in English mentioning grafting, but I cannot find something in German about it.

[brodski]

If "grafting" works with liquid potencies (as the glossary I linked to above claims), then the shaking will be unneccessary, I think. To produce more of the 30X remedy, just top it up with whatever solvent is used and off you go again.

Worse still, shaking it could be dangerous, as the first time she tops up her 9/10ths empty bottle with distilled water she would be turning it from 30X to 31X (if she shook it to potentize it) the next time she does this she’ll be turning it into a 32x solution, and so on. In no time at all should could have the most powerful homeopathic remedy in the world- the dangers of overdose would be immense, especially if she didn’t take it . By grafting (mixing without shaking) she avoids this danger.

You know, now that I come to tell someone, it all sounds rather silly.

[Apathia]

"It works for me!"
That's what my XGF says everytime about the homoeopathic remedies her naturopathic doctor gives her, even when it's obvious they aren't working.
I'd tell her, "That's not working. You should see a conventional doctor." Then she'd protest that she didn't want to spend money on some drug that might not work. So back to that quack, "Dr. Chris," for another round of expensive do nothings.

[hipparchia]

It's kinda depressing when friends use homeopathy. Especially if it is instead of a flu shot.
"But oscillococcinum works".

Sorry, but three bouts of flu and heavy colds in one season do not convince me. I will remind how important it is to use flu vaccine, then resort to physical violence or a blow- dart as needed:)

[Baron Samedi]

I think you are right. Homoeopaths differentiate between dilution and potency. Even though the grafted water will be even more dilute, the potency will stay the same.

BTW, is there anybody who knows the German term for homoeopathic "grafting"? I see plenty of (skeptic) articles in English mentioning grafting, but I cannot find something in German about it.

*blinks*
You know, I think my head has exploded. How is potency different than dilution? Do you mean to tell me that if the "remedy" is advertised on the package as being 10X, then at BEST CASE, it it 1:10,000,000,000, but could actually be 1:10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000? (As an insane example)

[steenkh]

*blinks*
You know, I think my head has exploded. How is potency different than dilution? Do you mean to tell me that if the "remedy" is advertised on the package as being 10X, then at BEST CASE, it it 1:10,000,000,000, but could actually be 1:10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000? (As an insane example)
As I have understood it, the potency is a factor of how many times the remedy has been potentized, which is a combination of dilution and succussion. I think (without being an expert) that you can raise the dilution without altering the potentization, but that you cannot raise the potentization without altering the dilution.

But I may be wrong.

ETA: The potentization is the "magic" part of homoeopathy. It is the reason why tap water is not a homoeopathic dilution of everything that has been in contact with the water.

[Baron Samedi]

As I have understood it, the potency is a factor of how many times the remedy has been potentized, which is a combination of dilution and succussion. I think (without being an expert) that you can raise the dilution without altering the potentization, but that you cannot raise the potentization without altering the dilution.

But I may be wrong.

ETA: The potentization is the "magic" part of homoeopathy. It is the reason why tap water is not a homoeopathic dilution of everything that has been in contact with the water.

So, in layman's terms...

- Adding water, mixing, and saying the magic words makes the solution more powerful (potency, such as 10X, 30C, etc)
- Adding water, shaking, but not saying the magic words makes the solution just as good as it was before

I would ask more questions, but I'm trying to be in a cheery mood today

[brodski]

So, in layman's terms...

- Adding water, mixing, and saying the magic words makes the solution more powerful (potency, such as 10X, 30C, etc)
- Adding water, shaking, but not saying the magic words makes the solution just as good as it was before

I would ask more questions, but I'm trying to be in a cheery mood today

No, the shaking (or striking against a bible) is the “succession”, there are (IIRC) no magic words in homeopathy (although it is a system of sympathetic magic).
Remember, when it is says “10X”, that only means that the “mother tincture(MT) has been diluted by a factor of 10, 10 times (1 part in 10,000,000,000). There are no homeopathic standards for how concentrated the “mother tincture” is, it could be pure “remedy” it could be a 1% solution, not that it would actually make nay difference in practise at the “potencies” which homeopathic remedies are actually sold. But it may be useful to point out that both a 1% saline solution and a 10% saline solution could both be a 1X homeopathic remedy of table salt- both believed to have the same magical properties- depending on the strength of the MT.

[Baron Samedi]

No, the shaking (or striking against a bible) is the “succession”, there are (IIRC) no magic words in homeopathy (although it is a system of sympathetic magic).
Remember, when it is says “10X”, that only means that the “mother tincture(MT) has been diluted by a factor of 10, 10 times (1 part in 10,000,000,000). There are no homeopathic standards for how concentrated the “mother tincture” is, it could be pure “remedy” it could be a 1% solution, not that it would actually make nay difference in practise at the “potencies” which homeopathic remedies are actually sold. But it may be useful to point out that both a 1% saline solution and a 10% saline solution could both be a 1X homeopathic remedy of table salt- both believed to have the same magical properties- depending on the strength of the MT.

I hear you. I was using the phrase "magic words" as a catch-all for the secret professional touch (striking on a Bible, blessing the machine by writing positive words on it, whatever). It just seems very odd to me that the dilutions can occur before (using raw MT, 10%, or 1%), or afterwards (grafting). It just appears so very arbitrary.

[IMST]

No, the shaking (or striking against a bible) is the “succession”,
I'm going to have her strike the bible rather than shake it then. She's not religious. Any muscle soreness remedy should be more powerful if possible.

But it may be useful to point out that both a 1% saline solution and a 10% saline solution could both be a 1X homeopathic remedy of table salt- both believed to have the same magical properties- depending on the strength of the MT.
My head asplode.

[ObscureReferenceMan]

IMST,

Sorry, but there is no rebuttal to the "but it works for me" argument. A person like this is already convinced, and nothing you say or do can convince her otherwise.

[IMST]

IMST,

Sorry, but there is no rebuttal to the "but it works for me" argument. A person like this is already convinced, and nothing you say or do can convince her otherwise.

Sigh. You're right, of course, but I don't just want to leave it unchallenged. There's too much medical woo in my social network and I'm not willing to let my friends head toward middle age without knowing what medicine is and isn't. If they don't want to listen, I can't make them, but I'm going to try anyway.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

"It works for me!"
That's what my XGF says everytime about the homoeopathic remedies her naturopathic doctor gives her, even when it's obvious they aren't working.
I'd tell her, "That's not working. You should see a conventional doctor." Then she'd protest that she didn't want to spend money on some drug that might not work. So back to that quack, "Dr. Chris," for another round of expensive do nothings.

Good thing you broke up with her.



ETA: The potentization is the "magic" part of homoeopathy. It is the reason why tap water is not a homoeopathic dilution of everything that has been in contact with the water.

Until you put it in a container and tap it against a hard surface 10 times. Then drinking it would be like drinking every substance known to man. But wait, Aren't Homeopathic remedies diluted in water? Doesn't that mean the Homeopathic remedies diluted in water should also contain all of the substance that has come into contact with that water? :boggled:

[Monza]

No, the shaking (or striking against a bible) is the “succession”, there are (IIRC) no magic words in homeopathy (although it is a system of sympathetic magic)....

I was disappointed to hear that there are no magic words. That takes out a lot of the fun, I would imagine. But the striking against a bible is good. Because if something doesn't have magic words or silly rituals, how would we know what to make fun of?

I wonder, do most people who buy homeopathic remedies really know what homeopathy is? I gotta think that most people would question the stuff if they knew about water memory and all that.

[Mojo]

But the striking against a bible is good.


I'm sure a nice leather-bound copy of Hahnemann's Organon would do just as well as any other religious book.

[TuftedPuffin]

Most people simply don't know what things like 30X mean. I had a friend who used a 200C homeopathic pain pill regularly, but when I explained that it mean a 1 in 100^200 dilution, she realized it couldn't work and stopped using it.

Of course, later she forgot and used more homeo stuff, but I never said it was a perfect cure.

In general, most people think homeopathic just means it uses herbs.

[steenkh]

Most people simply don't know what things like 30X mean. I had a friend who used a 200C homeopathic pain pill regularly, but when I explained that it mean a 1 in 100^200 dilution, she realized it couldn't work and stopped using it.
You should also tell her that the 1 in 100^200 dilution is just sprayed on a lactose pill and left to evaporate. That makes it even more ludicrous.

[Rolfe]

I remember a colleague once told me she was looking at a veterinary practice that was for sale, and the current owner was into "alternative medicine". She said she practised homoeopathy, and showed the potential buyer a sort of vat of water which she said was the homoeopathic remedy. "Just top it up from the tap whenever it's getting a bit low." No mention of any different remedies, even!

I think this was quite some time ago, and the story might have been embellished I suppose, but I swear that's as it was told to me.

Rolfe.

[Paulhoff]

As I told Randi one time, if the more diluted it is, the better it is suppose to work, then not taking it at all would be the strongest dose of all.

Paul

:) :) :)