So, JE has a 3 year waiting list? Think again...

[CFLarsen]

JE-fan(atic)s often point to the 3-year waiting list as evidence that JE is real - for why else would he be so popular? He also brags about it himself, for the very same reason.

Think again.

JE describes in his upcoming book "After Life" that he has contacted Aaliyah, who died two years ago. He has contacted the mother of Mia Tyler, daughter of Aerosmith singer Steven Tyler. The mother died September 9th, 2002. Not even one year ago. He has also contacted the father of Norman Mailer's wife. (Time of death not available).

Now, he is claiming that he didn't know who the relatives of Aaliyah were. He presumably also didn't know who Mia Tyler was, because that would leave the door wide open for hotreading. The book also has to be written, proof-read, printed, distributed, etc, etc. All that takes time.

That means his waiting list is not 3 years, but far, far less than 1 year. Unless, of course, celebrities don't have to wait in line...

"Bending the rules" again? But wait, that can't be true, because how can JE "bend the rules" for celebrities, if he doesn't know who he is reading?

Full story (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/114254p-103091c.html)

[Flo]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
JE-fan(atic)s often point to the 3-year waiting list as evidence that JE is real - for why else would he be so popular? He also brags about it himself, for the very same reason.

Think again.



No need to think "again" ...

- this 3 years waiting list, you have to give personnal details to get on it, right ?
- doesn't that ring a bell ?
- how do you make sure those informations will not be used ?

You really, really need to be desperate to believe "there is something in mediumship" (outside of big $) to trust someone like JE, JVP, SB et al. and to defend them against allegations that they might somehow not be "the real thing". :rolleyes:

[Lurker]

Clearly celebrities get priority, no surprise there. And we have to trust that JE's handlers don't discuss names with him. Can you imagine the conversations:

Handler: "John, we got a call from a celebrity who wants a reading."

John Edward: "Is it a BIG celebrity? One who will help my sagging ratings?"

Handler: "Well, of course I can't simply reveal who it is because even though nobody would know I must follow made up rules that nobody can possibly enforce. But it is a celebrity, not on the "A" list but reasonable."

John Edward: "Hmm, as producer I can't really make a good call on this one without knowing who it is specifically. Why don't you just tell me and I promise to forget right away."

Lurker

[Clancie]

JE-fan(atic)s often point to the 3-year waiting list as evidence that JE is real
They do? Where? :confused:

[RC]

Interesting information. Sounds to me like JE and gang arranged some special "celebrity" readings to get some stories for this book. I don't think it has anything to do with his regular waiting list for the masses. Of course he bends his rules for publicity and its obvious that these readings aren't part of his standard private reading process. He did these in a hotel; his regular private readings are in his office.

Flo, I take exception to your characterization of people who think there might be something to mediumship. It's not worth getting in a back in forth with you, but your comments are pretty patronizing.

[RC]

Originally posted by Clancie

They do? Where? :confused: [/B]

I know...where'd he pull that one from...but I thought I'd just ignore that one and focus on the newspaper article. :roll:

[Clancie]

Posted by RC

Sounds to me like JE and gang arranged some special "celebrity" readings to get some stories for this book.
You're right, RC. His (new) co-author arranged them. (I found them the least interesting parts of the book...just like they're the least interesting parts of the show--and fortunately hardly ever happen anymore...but...whatever...)

[Dragon]

Originally posted by Clancie

They do? Where? :confused: [/B]

Never mind the fans, let's see what the man himself says on his website (http://www.johnedward.net/index2.htm).
(left hand panel - just over half way down)

[CFLarsen]

Hi, Clancie! Good to see you've taken me off ignore once again....

Originally posted by Clancie
They do? Where? :confused:

Here:

"Besides which, I believe that the quote we were referring to here, was the quote where JE "bragged" that his three year waiting list was indicative of his legitimacy as a medium, an idea with which I already said I was in agreement to a certain extent."
neofight, in the thread "George Anderson slams JE and JVP"

Now, we can argue about whether his fans do it or not. We can, of course, wade through TVTalkshows, Pam's board, etc, to see what we can find.

Do you want to do that, Clancie? Surely, you are not seriously disputing that his fans do point to the long waiting list as a sign of his validity?

Whatever your choice will be, could you address the issue of this thread?

Does JE bend the rules for celebrities he is not supposed to know the identity of?

Or does he lie about his 3-year waiting list?

Or...perhaps you have a third possibility? Hey, I'm open-minded....

[CFLarsen]

From JE's own site:

As it stands right now-the waiting list for an appointment is approximately 3 years. We will be working strictly from the waiting list...no exceptions....

O....K.

Somebody, explain this to me. Please.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Somebody, explain this to me. Please.
It means that for the unwashed masses, there is no way to book an appointment with JE unless you are already on the list. There is no way to get on the list, and if you are on, you'll just have to wait.

Of course, if you are a celebrity, that is a special case. Waiting list? What waiting list? Come right in sir, and meet with the great JE - you don't mind the cameras, do you? No? Great, then have a seat.

It is like a restaurant that tells you you can't get a reservation for 3 weeks, and when movie star X shows up out of the blue, he gets a table.

As for the waiting list as a sign of validity... well, Milli Vanilli sold out concerts too, and they couldn't even sing.

[CFLarsen]

Thanz,

So, JE is lying through his teeth when he says "no exceptions".

OK.

How do celebrities - or the families of celebrities - get a reading, without revealing their identity? They call up and say "Hey, I'm related to a famous dead guy, but I won't tell you who"?

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Thanz,

So, JE is lying through his teeth when he says "no exceptions".

OK.
Well, the website is for the common folk, and the no exceptions applies to them. It would be extremely stupid for them to put on the website "no exceptions unless you are famous or I can get some publicity".

Now, I do not know if this is how they work. It is just my cynical viewpoint. But if I am right, then yes - the website saying "no exceptions" is lying, just like the maitre'd who tells me no tables are available for three weeks, but any celebrity can walk right in.

Now, I'd agree that giving priority to celebrities sucks, and saying that a long wait list proves his validity is an extremely poor argument (at best), but I don't think I would attach much significance at all to the "no exceptions" (when there are exceptions) as proof of anything other than JE likes to get publicity, and he is in demand from his followers, and his staff wants to work through the backlog for a while.

How do celebrities - or the families of celebrities - get a reading, without revealing their identity? They call up and say "Hey, I'm related to a famous dead guy, but I won't tell you who"?
Easy! Lurker described it perfectly! :D

[CFLarsen]

Thanz,

So, when should we believe what JE says? How do we know when he is lying, and when does he speak the truth?

I saw what Lurker wrote. Surely, nobody can believe that??

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Thanz,

So, when should we believe what JE says? How do we know when he is lying, and when does he speak the truth?
I don't know. You have lied. How do I know when you are lying and when you are speaking the truth?

Personally, I don't believe JE when he says he is talking to the dead. Of course, that is the big question. But even if I had my doubts (and believed he may be talking to the dead) this thing on his website would do nothing to sway me.

Actually, I guess it is possible that he is talking to the dead. There is no evidence of it, however, and unless and until there is I feel comfortable in my believe that he isn't. And I can safely say that I was not swayed one iota in this belief by the "no exceptions" line on the website.

I saw what Lurker wrote. Surely, nobody can believe that??
I think that Lurker was posting tongue in cheek. I was merely expressing my appreciation for his humour.

[CFLarsen]

Thanz,

I have not lied. Don't derail this thread.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Thanz,

I have not lied. Don't derail this thread.
You have, but I won't further derail this thread. If you want to take up your defence, you know where to do it. I have put up, and I see that you have shut up. That's fine.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Thanz

You have, but I won't further derail this thread. If you want to take up your defence, you know where to do it. I have put up, and I see that you have shut up. That's fine.

Thanz, why don't you STFU!!?? You are a stupid, ignorant, freaking troll!!

The discussion was about John Edward, not CFL. Why do you insist on attacking CFL anytime he brings up good points against mediumship or JE, or any other topic? If you have a problem with CFL, I suggest you settle it with him in PM or place him on ignore.

[TLN]

Originally posted by Clancie
They do? Where? :confused:

What a second... is this a question based on a claim?

[CFLarsen]

OK! FINE! Back to the subject!!

[BNiles]

Originally posted by Clancie

They do? Where? :confused: [/B]

Here

Originally posted by SteveGrenard on 08/11/03 in “The “Process” of John Edward”
How long ago was this? I know that about two years ago he also had a 2 to 3 year waiting list which would also cut down on "frequent" readings by default; however he may not allow repeaters for these anymore either. At one point he had stopped even taking one on one appointments. Does anyone know if he does so and if he allows frequent repeaters or does one have to go to the end of the que?

Originally posted by Clancie on 07/07/03 in “Taken in by John Edward”
Hi Starrman,
...snip...
I understand. And don't get me wrong. I always like discussing various aspects of JE and the readings. I am curious about your areas of concern with your relatives.

First...do they have an appointment?

I ask because he has a three year waiting list and isn't taking appointments. If they already have one, is it soon?


Did you forget this last one? ;)

[Yahzi]

Everybody
The knife-fighting between Claus and Thanz (and the attendant cat-calls from the audience) obscures an important point.

Upon presentation of a fact, the woo-woos have simply vanished.

If only it were this easy in real life!!!

[neofight]

Well, it's a fact that JE has not scheduled any new private readings for quite a while now. If you are not already on the list, you won't get a reading. Celebrity readings, I'm sure, are handled differently. Here is a statement found on JE's website......

Private Appointments

As of January 1st, 2002 John Edward will not be scheduling any private readings for the near future.

Opportunities for private readings will become available again after the current scheduled waiting list diminishes. We thank you for visiting the official John Edward website worldwide.

According to this, the then three-year waiting list should now be down somewhere between a year to a year and a half.....neo

[Thanz]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


Thanz, why don't you STFU!!?? You are a stupid, ignorant, freaking troll!!
Wow! This is, I believe, the very first time I have been called a troll! And not just any troll, but a "stupid, ignorant, freaking" one. I'd like to thank the academy....

The discussion was about John Edward, not CFL. Why do you insist on attacking CFL anytime he brings up good points against mediumship or JE, or any other topic? If you have a problem with CFL, I suggest you settle it with him in PM or place him on ignore.
You'll notice that I was talking about JE. I used CFLarsen as an example in a discussion about JE. Mr.Larsen decided to focus on the example rather than the rest of the post. Not much I can do about that.

I wasn't attacking him in this thread. Just pointing out the obvious. Your diatribe, however, can only be construed as an attack. Not that I expect much more from you anyway.

[CFLarsen]

But, neo...you didn't address the issues:

Does JE bend the rules for celebrities he is not supposed to know the identity of? How are the celebritiy readings "handled differently"? Please, no speculations. We have to deal with facts, here.

Isn't he lying, when he says he has a 3-year waiting list?

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Upon presentation of a fact, the woo-woos have simply vanished.

If only it were this easy in real life!!!
Yeah, well, I think that the facts that have been presented don't confirm much. If you are just a fan, you need to wait. If you are a celebrity, or someone who can be exploited for publicity, you don't. I don't find this surprising, and I don't thinkthat it proves anything about whether he is talking to the dead.

I do think that it shows what JE's motives are, however. He is obviously not just out to help people. He is out to get paid as much as he can. I don't fault him for this per se (it is the American Dream, right?) but to claim that he is in it for the people just doesn't withstand scrutiny.

Not that you ever thought it would, of course.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by BNiles

Here

Did you forget this last one? ;)
Not to put too fine a point on it, but those quotes are not people arguing that JE's 3 year list means that he is a genuine medium, which is what was claimed.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Thanz

Not to put too fine a point on it, but those quotes are not people arguing that JE's 3 year list means that he is a genuine medium, which is what was claimed.

Do you think they are referring to it because they think JE is not a real medium?

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Do you think they are referring to it because they think JE is not a real medium?
Without context, I don't know why they are referring to it. However, based on just what has been posted, it appears that they are just referring to the process and/or likelihood of getting a reading done privately by JE.

I certainly don't see anything in the quotes along the lines of "Of course JE is real! Look - he has a three year wait list! Why would he have a three wait list if he were fake?" which would be, I agree, a stupid argument.

[Clancie]

Bill Niles,

Of course we know JE has a waiting list. That wasn't my question. :) Your quotes (including mine) don't address what I was asking about--namely, Flo's quote about believers pointing to the waiting list as evidence of JE's authentic mediumship.

All I can say, is personally, I see the waiting list as evidence of his popularity only.
Posted by Thanz

Now, I'd agree that giving priority to celebrities sucks, and saying that a long wait list proves his validity is an extremely poor argument (at best), but I don't think I would attach much significance at all to the "no exceptions" (when there are exceptions) as proof of anything other than JE likes to get publicity, and he is in demand from his followers, and his staff wants to work through the backlog for a while.
Well, Thanz, I kind of agree with you. Obviously celebrities can be added into his schedule for a variety of reasons that "common folk" can't. I don't think a long list proves his validity at all.

And apparently there are sometimes exceptions even for the "common folk", as in the 9/ll instance. (Many people probably agree with JE that they deserve preferential treatment over other bereaved people for all the reasons that neo has given, even though I don't agree with the practice).

Since he stopped adding names to the waiting list last year, I assume he works through private readings at a fairly steady pace (2 a day? 10 a week? I have no idea, but I imagine there's a schedule of private appointments that is fairly fixed).

I guess he schedules the other things...CO, seminars, celebrity readings, "unusual grief situations" like 9/ll....into the rest of his available time. I'd be surprised if any of the waiting list people were bumped from appointments just to accommodate a celebrity or an "emergency", though.

[CFLarsen]

Here are some more quotes, from TVTalkshows:

neofight 152.163.189.131 09-02-2002 11:34 AM
I do not dispute the existence of a waiting list at all. I do not know how many private readings JE does in a week/month/year, but I would think, since the demand is so high, that the three-year list is quite long, and if he were still accepting names, my name and my husband's would definitely be on it.

Gryphon2 207.175.243.209 09-02-2002 11:59 AM (Clancie, as we know her here)
Neo: "If he were still accepting names, my name and my husband's would definitely be on it."

Yes, you, me, and probably thousands of people watching CO would be signing up.

There are good reasons for closing the list. For example, when I first heard it was three years I thought, "Three years is a long time. I don't know where I'll be in three years, but I might as well add my name to the list now just in case I can make it."

MysticFire 68.64.27.34 02-19-2002 12:49 AM
I think it's just a "supply and demand" type of thing....The demand is obviously high due to the huge waiting lists, but at least by raising prices, you get the ones that REALLY want it and not just someone who's only slightly interested but will get a reading because it's so cheap.............

Carmine 212.156.4.3 12-07-2001 03:10 AM
If they are so good at editing, then why does the studio audience gasp at all of the hits, cry with the sitters, come away from the show with nothing but praise for JE? If he was rattling off hundreds of guesses to get a hit then there would be a line of people around the block waiting to tell the world that JE was a fraud. The opposite is the case, there is a huge waiting list to see JE, his popularity is skyrocketing right now.

Pam 4.3.124.93 04-11-2001 11:32 AM
He's got a TV show, he's the executive producer, he's got two best selling books, 3 audio cassette publications, sells out venues of thousands of seats in a matter of days, and has a one and a half year waiting list.


Clancie, if you see the list as a sign of popularity only, why would you want to be on the list, if you didn't believe JE was a real medium? Is popularity not an indication of people believing him to be real?

How does JE get in touch with the celebrities he is not supposed to know the identity of? How does he decide - control freak that he is - who gets to be read, if he doesn't know who they are?

Do you accept that JE lies when he claims to have a 3 year waiting list?

[Clancie]

btw, there are various JE business practices that I'm not personally fond of.

However, I don't think any of the things I'm thinking of would negate the possibility that he is a genuine medium. Even if, for example, we all agreed that he was too commercial now, it wouldn't therefore, ipso facto, mean that he is a fraud.

He could still be a genuine medium, even if he had business practices that some people found acceptably pragmatic and others found annoyingly self serving.

[renata]

Originally posted by Clancie
Bill Niles,

Of course we know JE has a waiting list. That wasn't my question. :) Your quotes (including mine) don't address what I was asking about--namely, Flo's quote about believers pointing to the waiting list as evidence of JE's authentic mediumship.

All I can say, is personally, I see the waiting list as evidence of his popularity only.

Forgive me if I am not understanding this, but isn't his alleged authenticity the sole basis of his popularity?

Why would anyone sign up if they did not think he is real?

[Thanz]

Originally posted by renata


Forgive me if I am not understanding this, but isn't his alleged authenticity the sole basis of his popularity?

Why would anyone sign up if they did not think he is real?
That's true, but it is not the point. It is true that he is popular because people believe he is real. That is not the same as saying he is real because he is popular.

[CFLarsen]

Clancie,

Ah...I see...You still have me on ignore. You merely responded to Flo's reply. I wonder how you expect me to show you the evidence of my claim if you have me on ignore.

Somebody might repost this, so Clancie sees it....sheeesh... :rolleyes:

Thanz,

It goes both ways. I am saying (or at least trying to say!) that his popularity is used as an argument that he is real. Why would he be so popular, if he is not real? How could he not be real, if he is so popular?

Why would Clancie sign up for something that would not only cost her the reading, but also airline tickets, hotel rooms, food, drink? That's a couple of thousand bucks (NY is not cheap!), which seems to be a lot of trouble - and a lot of money to pay - for someone you don't believe was a real medium.

It doesn't fit. It simply doesn't fit.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Here are some more quotes, from TVTalkshows:
I'm not sure why you bothered with these. The quote you posted from neo earlier made your point much better. These just seem to be confirming his popularity - which is based on the belief that he is genuine, but not the cause of the belief that he is genuine.

How does JE get in touch with the celebrities he is not supposed to know the identity of? How does he decide - control freak that he is - who gets to be read, if he doesn't know who they are?
Um, minor point, where does JE claim that he doesn't know beforehand which celebrities he will be reading? (I apologize if this is a sky is blue question). There are mechanisms that would separate the identity of the sitter from JE, but I have no idea if JE uses them (or even claims to use them). For instance, GA claims to have 2 offices - one that handles the names, etc, and gives out confirmation numbers, and then the other (with GA) that just has the numbers.

Do you accept that JE lies when he claims to have a 3 year waiting list?
Whoa, hold on there. Let's be accurate. We don't know if he is lying about having a three year wait list. We know that the policy of "no exceptions" is, shall we say, not in force for people that would get JE some extra publicity.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Thanz,

It goes both ways. I am saying (or at least trying to say!) that his popularity is used as an argument that he is real. Why would he be so popular, if he is not real? How could he not be real, if he is so popular?
I know that is what you are saying, and that is what the quote from Neo that you posted indicates. The quotes posted by BNiles don't say this though.

The argument that his popularity indicates he is real is silly. By that argument, we should believe that Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear and that Teller actually catches a bullet in his mouth.

Why would Clancie sign up for something that would not only cost her the reading, but also airline tickets, hotel rooms, food, drink? That's a couple of thousand bucks (NY is not cheap!), which seems to be a lot of trouble - and a lot of money to pay - for someone you don't believe was a real medium.

It doesn't fit. It simply doesn't fit.
I don't want to speak for Clancie, but as I understand it she thinks "there may be something to mediumship" and one of the reasons she thinks this is JE. So, she can think he MIGHT be real, but not sure (which I think is her position) and still want to be read by him. If only to see what happens. If someone is seriously on the fence about JE and mediumship in general, I see that as a legitimate reason to want a reading.

Heck, I wouldn't even question it if YOU had expressed a desire to be read by JE, so you could write an article on it or whatever.

So, I don't think that belief is a pre-requisite for wanting to be read. I'd agree, however, that the vast majority of people on the list probably DO believe.

[Lurker]

Even if believers were pointing to JE's popularity as a reason to believe in his authenticity as a medium it does not mean that that is the sole or even major reason for their belief.

Why not just ask them before shoehorning them into a specific belief? It seems they are saying that his popularity is NOT a primary reason for their belief (if at all). Claus, if you can find a post that has a believer saying that is one of their reasons for believing please provide it. I seem to recall some appeals to popularity being made in the past.

Regardless, it always seems to me the main reason believers believe is because of the notion of "special hits". I'd stick to that as a point of issue more than these sort of sidetracks.

Lurker

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Thanz
I'm not sure why you bothered with these. The quote you posted from neo earlier made your point much better. These just seem to be confirming his popularity - which is based on the belief that he is genuine, but not the cause of the belief that he is genuine.

That's not how I read it.

Originally posted by Thanz
Um, minor point, where does JE claim that he doesn't know beforehand which celebrities he will be reading? (I apologize if this is a sky is blue question). There are mechanisms that would separate the identity of the sitter from JE, but I have no idea if JE uses them (or even claims to use them). For instance, GA claims to have 2 offices - one that handles the names, etc, and gives out confirmation numbers, and then the other (with GA) that just has the numbers.

I seem to remember from a LKL show that he claims never to know who he is reading. I doubt seriously that he would admit to knowing them in advance!

Originally posted by Thanz
Whoa, hold on there. Let's be accurate. We don't know if he is lying about having a three year wait list. We know that the policy of "no exceptions" is, shall we say, not in force for people that would get JE some extra publicity.
Yes, we know the claim is there, on his own website! He does NOT have a 3-year waiting list. He claims he has.

What is that, if not a lie?

Originally posted by Thanz
I know that is what you are saying, and that is what the quote from Neo that you posted indicates. The quotes posted by BNiles don't say this though.

BNiles didn't make the claim, I did.

Originally posted by Thanz
The argument that his popularity indicates he is real is silly. By that argument, we should believe that Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear and that Teller actually catches a bullet in his mouth.

Absolutely. Nevertheless, the claim is there.

Originally posted by Thanz
I don't want to speak for Clancie, but as I understand it she thinks "there may be something to mediumship" and one of the reasons she thinks this is JE. So, she can think he MIGHT be real, but not sure (which I think is her position) and still want to be read by him. If only to see what happens. If someone is seriously on the fence about JE and mediumship in general, I see that as a legitimate reason to want a reading.

"If only to see what happens"? Clancie lives in CA, Thanz! JE does his readings in NY! That's a LONG way to travel, just to "see what happens"!!

Originally posted by Thanz
Heck, I wouldn't even question it if YOU had expressed a desire to be read by JE, so you could write an article on it or whatever.

Sorry, JE does not reply to my emails.

Originally posted by Thanz
So, I don't think that belief is a pre-requisite for wanting to be read. I'd agree, however, that the vast majority of people on the list probably DO believe.

Oh, yes...

Lurker,

I have not claimed that this could be the only reason. Therefore, no shoehorning.

But hey, let's leave the issue of what believers have said - fine with me. Let's stick to what JE says. No problems with me.

[Clancie]

Posted by Thanz

So, she can think he MIGHT be real, but not sure (which I think is her position) and still want to be read by him. If only to see what happens. If someone is seriously on the fence about JE and mediumship in general, I see that as a legitimate reason to want a reading.

....So, I don't think that belief is a pre-requisite for wanting to be read. I'd agree, however, that the vast majority of people on the list probably DO believe.
Thanz,

You certainly do a great job of understanding my point of view even though you totally disagree with me about JE. Thank you. :)

Yes, if I had $1000 + dollars to "gamble away" I'd rather go to NY and "gamble" on a reading with JE, than I would go to Las Vegas for a weekend and lose it there. After all these months of talking about him--and mediumship--the chance to see what kind of reading I would have with him would be irresistable (as well as being a worthwhile "gamble" on ADC, if he turned out to be "the real deal" after all).

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Clancie
Yes, if I had $1000 + dollars to "gamble away" I'd rather go to NY and "gamble" on a reading with JE, than I would go to Las Vegas for a weekend and lose it there. After all these months of talking about him--and mediumship--the chance to see what kind of reading I would have with him would be irresistable (as well as being a worthwhile "gamble" on ADC, if he turned out to be "the real deal" after all).

But you made this claim a year ago - in fact, you were referring to a time before then. So, you had, more than a year ago decided to fly across the continent, spending thousands of dollars....on a person you didn't know was a real medium...because of what? What you had seen on TV? How much exposure he had gotten in the media? How many discussions you had had?

If that isn't popularity, then what is???

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Yes, we know the claim is there, on his own website! He does NOT have a 3-year waiting list. He claims he has.

What is that, if not a lie?
I must be missing something. How do we know that he doesn't have a 3 year wait list?

BNiles didn't make the claim, I did.
I know. He just posted some stuff that he claimed supported your point, and I disagreed. No big deal.

"If only to see what happens"? Clancie lives in CA, Thanz! JE does his readings in NY! That's a LONG way to travel, just to "see what happens"!!
I don't know where she lives, nor do I particularly care how she spends her money. I am not willing to attribute a belief to a person solely because they spend their money in a different way than I would. The only reading I have ever had was from a tarot reader, and only because it was free and there was no line.

[BNiles]

Originally posted by Thanz

I know that is what you are saying, and that is what the quote from Neo that you posted indicates. The quotes posted by BNiles don't say this though.

Thanz:
You're right. I misunderstood what was being asked, and posted what I found was only references to JE's waiting list being 3 years long. I didn't intend them to infer that the length of the list was a basis of real mediumship. The only place that I've seen this was from JE himself.

CFL:
I see what you're getting at here, but IMO, believers here don't base their belief solely on this point. Some might, but I haven't seen a post yet that shows it.

In general:
The repeating of this whole "waiting list" point can serve as a droning drum beat. If people say it long enough, they'll start to believe it. "Oh, he has a 3 year waiting list! Wow, he must be for real!" Well let’s look at this with some reality mixed in.

Lets say JE does 4 sittings a day X 365 days X 3 years = 4,380 people on the list. So he has 4,380 believers. What's the population of America again?
;)

(Edited for spelling)

[CFLarsen]

Thanz,

He closed his list in early 2002. We have never seen a longer waiting period than 3 years. Therefore, the max. waiting period in early 2002 was 3 years. No more people signing up.

Unless JE hasn't done any readings since then, he cannot still have a 3-year waiting list.

Simple logic.

[CFLarsen]

BNiles,

I'm not saying "solely".

It's a stupid word, if you say that many times over. :)

[BNiles]

Side note for those keeping score.
I edited my post after CFL posted behind me, and it didn't show that edited it. (except for my statement of such)

[BNiles]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
BNiles,

I'm not saying "solely".

You're right, you didn't claim it as "Solely". Even still, I haven't seen a post of anyone useing it as even one reason to believe. I find posts of people refering to JE saying it, but no one claiming that it means what JE claims it means.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Thanz,

He closed his list in early 2002. We have never seen a longer waiting period than 3 years. Therefore, the max. waiting period in early 2002 was 3 years. No more people signing up.

Unless JE hasn't done any readings since then, he cannot still have a 3-year waiting list.

Simple logic.
But your basis for the 3 year claim was also the website, and that was from before they closed the list. If this is what you base the "lie" on, I think your claim is shakey. I think that all he is guilty of is sloppy website updating.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Thanz
But your basis for the 3 year claim was also the website, and that was from before they closed the list. If this is what you base the "lie" on, I think your claim is shakey. I think that all he is guilty of is sloppy website updating.

Give me a f*cking break! He runs a very tight ship, he is big business, he is a self-proclaimed control freak. The website gets updated regularly, you really think somebody hasn't noticed in over 18 months?

You are desperate, Thanz.

[RSLancastr]

Claus, will you never tire of beating dead strawmen?

I don't recall ever seeing a believer claim that the waiting list is evidence of JE's legitimacy.

It wouldn't surprise me if some did, but even assuming that they ALL claimed such a thing, showing that JE isn't as popular as claimed IS THE WRONG ARGUMENT.

If you are a critical thinker, you should know that the popularity of an idea (or person) has NO BEARING on that idea or person's legitimacy. Flat earth, anyone? (Reminds me of a poster from the 70's, which read "EAT S*** - 500 billion flies can't be wrong!")

So, by attempting to prove that JE isn't as popular as claimed, you are dignifying a fallacy (popular = legitimate) by arguing whether or not he is popular!

It's as thugh someone has said "1 + 3 = 5", and you, rather than telling them that their statement is incorrect, are saying "Wait a minute, I'm not so sure that's really a three!"

I believe I;ve said this before to you, but I really think you need to pick your battles more wisely.

[CFLarsen]

RSLancastr,

Fine, whatever. Focus on what JE claims, then.

[thaiboxerken]

(as well as being a worthwhile "gamble" on ADC, if he turned out to be "the real deal" after all).

Why gamble your own money when the JREF is gambling over one million dollars that John Edward isn't the "real deal". Too bad John Edward isn't ready to prove that he's the "real deal".

[Thanz]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Give me a f*cking break! He runs a very tight ship, he is big business, he is a self-proclaimed control freak. The website gets updated regularly, you really think somebody hasn't noticed in over 18 months?

You are desperate, Thanz.
I'm desperate? Desperate for what, exactly? Here is the entire announcement from the website:
Please Read!

Due to the overwhelming number of calls we receive on the 1st Wednesday of the month call in, we will not be taking any more calls beginning January 2002.

We do not feel comfortable having people wait so long for an appointment so once we are through the list of names we will once again take call ins. As it stands right now-the waiting list for an appointment is approximately 3 years.

We will be working strictly from the waiting list...no exceptions.... Please be patient if you are already on the list...and only check with the office if you have moved or changed your contact information.

Thank you in advance for your patience.
I think that it is abundantly clear that this was all written at the same time, and that time was at some point before January 2002. The satement isn't dated, but we can tell from the first paragraph that it would be in 2001. At that time, the list was three years long.

Unless you can direct me to another area of the website that says he has a 3 year list as of mid 2003, point it out. This statement simply doesn't support your argument.

I think that you are desperate. Desperate to "catch" JE in some sort of lie, no matter how trivial.

[neofight]

Originally posted by Thanz

I know that is what you are saying, and that is what the quote from Neo that you posted indicates. The quotes posted by BNiles don't say this though.

The argument that his popularity indicates he is real is silly.

originally posted by neofight:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Besides which, I believe that the quote we were referring to here, was the quote where JE "bragged" that his three year waiting list was indicative of his legitimacy as a medium, an idea with which I already said I was in agreement to a certain extent."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I did say that this made sense "to a certain extent", and I still believe it does. I forgot the exact words that I used following this quote, but I believe I went on to say that mediums depend upon word of mouth to spread their reputation, and if they gave crappy readings to people, they would not have a large following. No large following.....no long waiting list. I will stop short of declaring this any sort of "proof" however. ;) ....neo

[Thanz]

Originally posted by neofight
[BYes, I did say that this made sense "to a certain extent", and I still believe it does. I forgot the exact words that I used following this quote, but I believe I went on to say that mediums depend upon word of mouth to spread their reputation, and if they gave crappy readings to people, they would not have a large following. No large following.....no long waiting list. I will stop short of declaring this any sort of "proof" however. ;) ....neo [/B]
Yes, I did read something about what you are saying here about word of mouth. But the exact same thing would be true if he is just a good fake. So we are in the same position as we always are - is he real? Or just a good fake?

[CFLarsen]

Thanz,

Please. Enough, OK? Is the paragraph dated? No. On a website, when you speak of "now", you mean "now", unless it is specifically dated.

Why would they leave an outdated text on a website like that?

Sorry, no can do.

neofight,

Thanks for acknowledging that I was right. Now, are you going to address the issues or not?

How are the celebritiy readings "handled differently"? Please, no speculations. We have to deal with facts, here.

Please either:

address the question, providing either a retraction or evidence of your claim, or
state that you refuse to answer.

[neofight]

Originally posted by BNiles


You're right, you didn't claim it as "Solely". Even still, I haven't seen a post of anyone useing it as even one reason to believe. I find posts of people refering to JE saying it, but no one claiming that it means what JE claims it means.

Right, BNiles. And to be even more precise, my quote below was written in response to Instig8R's claim that JE said this. She provided no direct quote from JE, so I have no idea if she is being accurate here or not. To me, it does not really sound like something that JE would say in the first place, but without a quote......well......you see the problem. :)

originally posted by neofight:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Besides which, I believe that the quote we were referring to here, was the quote where JE "bragged" that his three year waiting list was indicative of his legitimacy as a medium, an idea with which I already said I was in agreement to a certain extent."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gee, I wonder why it is that Claus isn't harassing Instig8R to come up with that quote for accuracy's sake? Oh! (neo smacks herself upside the head) Right! Instig8R is not a believer! Of course! lol Silly me! It's that darned double standard that keeps popping up in connection with the pseudo-skeptic, Claus. ;) One standard for believers, and an entirely different one for the skeptics.....neo

[CFLarsen]

neofight,

Just answer the question, OK? Save the personal attacks.

How are the celebritiy readings "handled differently"? Please, no speculations. We have to deal with facts, here.

Please either:

address the question, providing either a retraction or evidence of your claim, or
state that you refuse to answer.

[neofight]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
neofight,

Just answer the question, OK? Save the personal attacks.

How are the celebritiy readings "handled differently"? Please, no speculations. We have to deal with facts, here.


Okay, I'll do you a solid and answer this question for you, Claus, even though you are very inconsistent with your demands for answers, depending upon whether or not you agree with the poster. :D

With regard to the celebrity readings, I don't remember ever hearing if the celebrities contact "CO", or if "CO" contacts the celebrities. Perhaps it's a little of both.

And no, even if it's "CO" contacting the celebrities, I do not believe that the producers share that information with JE. :p

I think it's pretty obvious that the celebrity readings are handled differently, in that they are not relegated to the same long waiting list that we peons have to abide by. ;) .....neo

[thaiboxerken]

And no, even if it's "CO" contacting the celebrities, I do not believe that the producers share that information with JE.

John Edward IS one of the producers, what's he do, forget to tell himself the information he just gathered?


I think it's pretty obvious that the celebrity readings are handled differently, in that they are not relegated to the same long waiting list that we peons have to abide by. ;) .....neo

You're probably correct, it's all about PR and getting the ratings. Entertainers need an audience, and celebrities will bring em.

[CFLarsen]

neofight,

Thank you for your answer. So, you have absolutely no idea if and how the celebrity readings are handled differently, except that they get handled before everyone else.

You forget that the celebrity readings mentioned in this thread did not take place within the show. They were private readings.

How does JE ensure that he does not know the identity of the celebrities he read? Surely, you are not saying that he does know the identity??

Who makes the decision which celebrity he reads in the first place? Who makes that decision, if not JE himself? A control freak like JE??? Are we to trust that his staff chooses for him, and then does not tell him the identity of the celebrities?

You gotta be kiddin'....

[BNiles]

I'm back to join in for the first time from home. :D

The cold reading phony knows exactly which celebs he sits with. There, I said it. That felt good.

[Clancie]

Hi Bill Niles,

Well, I hope you're sitting down because I'm going to agree with you (kinda, sorta. :) ).

I actually don't think JE knows who the celebs are ahead of time on CO, but the point is that, apparently, the procedures are such that he could.

That said, I think that lax procedures would actually make celebrity readings more difficult to do. Because we can't eliminate the possibility he's hot reading celebs, we'd have to discount any information coming through that he could have researched ahead of time.

So...instead, the things he'd have to bring through would need to be personal things that are not in any way public knowledge. (Names, causes of death, etc. wouldn't do).

A more difficult reading, in a way, I would think, just because of how much information is already on the public record about these people.

[Clancie]

Here's a bit about celeb readings from JE's new book, "After Life".

"After Life", p. 27 (JE describing celeb procedures on "CO")

"...The reading was scheduled by the show's producers, who were careful to keep Tracy (Nelson's) identity a secret from me. To take the secrecy a step further, I arranged for her to sit down behind me after I was already sitting in the chair so that I couldn't see her face during the reading...I thought if I didn't see the person I was reading, whoever it was...would (relax and) pay closer attention to what I was saying without wondering if I'd recognized them."
As for the celebrity interview for the new book, here's what he said....
"After Life", p. 27, (JE describing celeb procedures for the new book)

When working on my nonfiction books, I collaborate with another writer to make sure there's a journalistic objectivity to the readings we write about...And in the case of any celebrity-related readings, I get the writer...to organize the session so I don't know whom I'm reading beforehand or anything about them."
Well, either way, of course, it boils down to "the honor system". So, I agree that this means its necessary to discount information that could just have been researched in advance.

[RSLancastr]

"After Life", p. 27, (JE describing celeb procedures for the new book)

When working on my nonfiction books...
He's written some non-fiction?

Sorry, couldn't help myself... :D

[RC]

Originally posted by RSLancastr
Claus, will you never tire of beating dead strawmen?

I don't recall ever seeing a believer claim that the waiting list is evidence of JE's legitimacy.

It wouldn't surprise me if some did, but even assuming that they ALL claimed such a thing, showing that JE isn't as popular as claimed IS THE WRONG ARGUMENT.

If you are a critical thinker, you should know that the popularity of an idea (or person) has NO BEARING on that idea or person's legitimacy. Flat earth, anyone? (Reminds me of a poster from the 70's, which read "EAT S*** - 500 billion flies can't be wrong!")

So, by attempting to prove that JE isn't as popular as claimed, you are dignifying a fallacy (popular = legitimate) by arguing whether or not he is popular!

It's as thugh someone has said "1 + 3 = 5", and you, rather than telling them that their statement is incorrect, are saying "Wait a minute, I'm not so sure that's really a three!"

I believe I;ve said this before to you, but I really think you need to pick your battles more wisely.

Hooray Bob! If I weren't lazy, I'd nominate you for one of those awards, but please settle for RC's "this is all that needs to be said and this thread is a load of nonsense award".

[neofight]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Thank you for your answer. So, you have absolutely no idea if and how the celebrity readings are handled differently, except that they get handled before everyone else.

Claus, I cant even say that I know that much for a fact. I don't know if they get handled before everyone else, or do they just get worked into the schedule like a one here, one there kind of a thing. Unless JE explains the system they use, I'm certainly not privy to how they schedule the readings.

You forget that the celebrity readings mentioned in this thread did not take place within the show. They were private readings.

Did you get this information from the new book? I don't have my copy yet. Since you say these celebrity readings are not going to be used for the show, do we even know if these people were treated preferentially? Perhaps they simply had their names on the list, and their appointment finally came up.

How does JE ensure that he does not know the identity of the celebrities he read? Surely, you are not saying that he does know the identity??

Well, when there were the celebrity readings on "CO", it was supposedly understood that JE had no idea whom he was reading. If you remember, they always had him sitting with his back to the celebrity, and in others, he was on the other side of a partitian. Naturally, when he would do the readings right in the celebrity's own home, at some point he became aware of who the sitter was.

Who makes the decision which celebrity he reads in the first place? Who makes that decision, if not JE himself? A control freak like JE??? Are we to trust that his staff chooses for him, and then does not tell him the identity of the celebrities?

You gotta be kiddin'....

As I said, I don't know how this whole thing works, but in those cases where JE has claimed not to know in advance who it was he would be reading, I tend to believe that claim. I don't know what's so difficult to believe about the "CO" people arranging the celebrity readings for JE. As far as I'm concerned, he would have no need to know.

As far as who gets chosen, why do you think only some of them are chosen? Do you personally know of any celebrity who wanted a reading and was flat-out refused?....neo

[neofight]

Originally posted by Clancie
Here's a bit about celeb readings from JE's new book, "After Life".

Thanks for that information, Clancie. I get my copy of "After Life" tomorrow at the book-signing. :)

Well, either way, of course, it boils down to "the honor system". So, I agree that this means its necessary to discount information that could just have been researched in advance.

I agree. Generally known information that comes through during celebrity readings does not count for much......neo

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by neofight
Well, when there were the celebrity readings on "CO", it was supposedly understood that JE had no idea whom he was reading. If you remember, they always had him sitting with his back to the celebrity, and in others, he was on the other side of a partitian. Naturally, when he would do the readings right in the celebrity's own home, at some point he became aware of who the sitter was.The only celebrity reading I saw was Coolio, which I think was filmed backstage at the studio (although maybe it was at Coolio's), and JE was facing Coolio and Coolio's sisters the entire time.

[neofight]

Originally posted by RSLancastr
The only celebrity reading I saw was Coolio, which I think was filmed backstage at the studio (although maybe it was at Coolio's), and JE was facing Coolio and Coolio's sisters the entire time.

Yes, RSL. There are many readings of celebrities done face-to-face, and these are usually at the celebrity's home. Melissa Gilbert, Anne Rice, Backstreet Boys etc. Studio readings most often are not done face-to-face. I can't say that I remember where the Coolio reading was held......neo

[Loki]

Claus,

Storm in a teacup time again?
JE-fan(atic)s often point to the 3-year waiting list as evidence that JE is real - for why else would he be so popular? He also brags about it himself, for the very same reason.

Think again.

JE describes in his upcoming book "After Life" that he has contacted Aaliyah, who died two years ago. He has contacted the mother of Mia Tyler, daughter of Aerosmith singer Steven Tyler. The mother died September 9th, 2002. Not even one year ago.
...
The book also has to be written, proof-read, printed, distributed, etc, etc. All that takes time.
...
That means his waiting list is not 3 years, but far, far less than 1 year. Unless, of course, celebrities don't have to wait in line...

Unless the celebrities were already in line. Surely that's unlikely, but how have you eliminated that possibility?

"Bending the rules" again? But wait, that can't be true, because how can JE "bend the rules" for celebrities, if he doesn't know who he is reading?
As answered above, by JE in his own words - the producers and his co-author make the arrangements, and don't tell him at his request. You don't have to believe that (I don't), but can you show it's not true?

Whats the reasonable conclusion from what you've "discovered"? Simply that JE has a long waiting list for private readings, and for reasons known only by himself and his associates (but probably related to the word "publicity") he does "celebrity" readings ocasionally that are not part of this waiting list. He adds the claim that these "special" readings are organised for him, and he has no foreknowledge of the sitter.

Is there a point here worth making? I can't see it...

[Flo]

Originally posted by Clancie
Here's a bit about celeb readings from JE's new book, "After Life".


As for the celebrity interview for the new book, here's what he said....

Well, either way, of course, it boils down to "the honor system". So, I agree that this means its necessary to discount information that could just have been researched in advance.


And it still doesn't ring a bell for the rest of his "shows" ? :rolleyes:

[CFLarsen]

Ah. Progress. And the sun shines, too... :)

Clancie,

We have to discard the celebrity readings, if public info comes up, because of the possibility of hot reading. I'm with you.

However, we cannot accept not-public information either. Celebrities are public figures, and it is very, very easy to use private detectives to dig up something, especially because their names are known in advance.

Depending on the "honor system" - trusting JE's word - is like paying money to a magician who promises he won't peek. That has to be the ultimate sign of gullibility.

RC,

You never seem too lazy to throw the odd snide remark at me. Perhaps you should either engage in a real discussion at some point, or simply stay away.

neofight,

OK, so you don't know how - or even if - the celebrity readings are handled any different.

I did not say that the celebrity readings weren't going to be used in the show. I merely said that they were not taped during the show. Please don't misrepresent what I say, neo. :mad:

Sitting with his back to the sitter is not my idea of security. Believing JE's word is not security either.

But I'm glad to see you acknowledge that JE gets visual feedback from the homes of the sitters. I'm also glad to see that you dismiss the readings that Michael Kelly and Russ Brunelli (http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/jespecialhits.htm) got, because that information JE came up with was "generally known" - it was found on the Internet. Progress.

How do I know some are refused? I don't. But if JE has the time for every celebrity that comes along - as long as it is a celebrity - what does that say about his wish to "just help"? That shows JE as nothing but a publicity hound.

How can you switch within minutes from "If you remember, they always had him sitting with his back to the celebrity, and in others, he was on the other side of a partitian"? to "There are many readings of celebrities done face-to-face"?? Quite frankly, you don't seem to be very well versed in JE...or you simply choose the explanation that makes JE look the best - until you are faced with contradictory evidence.

It makes it very hard to discuss anything with you. You do see the problem, don't you?

Loki,

I think we can safely say that we can eliminate Aaliyah's folks getting a celebrity reading to contact the dead Aaliyah before she died, don't you think? The same goes for Mia Tyler. Why would Mia Tyler sign up for a reading to try and contact her mother before her mother died?

My point is that JE is not being truthful when he claims to have a 3-year waiting list, "no exceptions". That puts his claim that he is only trying to help in a questionable light. It is also highly questionable how those celebrity readings take place - I mean, even neofight has to admit that "many celebrity readings" are done face to face. The risk of a leak is of such magnitude that both neofight and Clancie - our resident JE-fans - have had to admit that we can't trust those readings.

Not a storm in a teacup at all (in DK, it's a glass of water :)).

Progress. Little by little, perhaps. But progress.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Loki
Claus,

...snip...

Unless the celebrities were already in line. Surely that's unlikely, but how have you eliminated that possibility?

...snip...

I have to say if they were already in line for a reading before the death of the celebrity i.e.

"JE describes in his upcoming book "After Life" that he has contacted Aaliyah, who died two years ago. He has contacted the mother of Mia Tyler, daughter of Aerosmith singer Steven Tyler. The mother died September 9th, 2002. Not even one year ago. He has also contacted the father of Norman Mailer's wife. (Time of death not available)."

Then perhaps it is the police we should all be contacting! :D

[Lurker]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Sitting with his back to the sitter is not my idea of security. Believing JE's word is not security either.



In total agreement. There are myriad ways for JE to defeat this security system.



How do I know some are refused? I don't. But if JE has the time for every celebrity that comes along - as long as it is a celebrity - what does that say about his wish to "just help"? That shows JE as nothing but a publicity hound.



I agree. Although it could be argued that JE need publicity to keep his show on the air so his message of love and *whatever* can reach a wider audience. In essence, JE is suffering through these celebrity interviews so he can keep helping the masses. Streeeetch!




Loki,

I think we can safely say that we can eliminate Aaliyah's folks getting a celebrity reading to contact the dead Aaliyah before she died, don't you think? The same goes for Mia Tyler. Why would Mia Tyler sign up for a reading to try and contact her mother before her mother died?

My point is that JE is not being truthful when he claims to have a 3-year waiting list, "no exceptions". That puts his claim that he is only trying to help in a questionable light. It is also highly questionable how those celebrity readings take place - I mean, even neofight has to admit that "many celebrity readings" are done face to face. The risk of a leak is of such magnitude that both neofight and Clancie - our resident JE-fans - have had to admit that we can't trust those readings.

[/B]

I agree he is not being truthful but so what? Big deal. He "lied" about something quite inconsequential. It may offend our sense of equality but that is about it.

And if I may play JE advocate for a second, these celebrities could have been in line. Perhaps they wanted to contact someone else at first? I don't believe it for a second but the possibility exists.

Regardless, the portion of this thread about lines - SO WHAT? The portion about the protocols on celebrity readings is a bit better so keep it up. Methinks neo looked a bit inconsistent.

Lurker

[BNiles]

I think what CFL is getting at here is a simple line of logic.
1.) 3 Year waiting list (No Exceptions)
2.) Celebs don't wait on the list (Time frame sooner than 3 yrs)
3.) Celebs must be somehow known in advance (face to face or back to back)
4.) Opportunity for Hot Reading opens (public lives to include WTC victims)

These assumptions are mostly based on circumstantial reasoning; however, it is good reasoning IMO. I think the disagreements start at #3 because although the opportunity is present, we can't prove that it was acted upon. I feel very strong that it was, but I can't prove it.

I've stated this before, but feel it once again applies:
I can't prove that God exists, but that doesn't mean he doesn't.
I can't prove that God doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean he does.

As usual, the logic may be sound, but without proof it's only speculation.

P.S. Clancie, I'm glad I was sitting down when you agreed with me. ;)