The fifth plane Flight 23

[MaGZ]

The fifth plane Flight 23 (Newark to Los Angeles) that was scheduled for hijacking on 9/11. It never made it off the ground and the would-be hijackers fled.


Perhaps, but Kirk is adamant that Ballinger did save the passengers and crew of United Flight 23, which on Sept. 11 was about to depart from Newark, N.J., to Los Angeles. Kirk believes Flight 23 was going to be commandeered.


http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/il10_kirk/news040414_flight.html

[twinstead]

Interesting story. MaGZ IIRC you believe 911 was an inside job. What is your opinion about the story?

[PhantomWolf]

Interesting story. MaGZ IIRC you believe 911 was an inside job. What is your opinion about the story?

Actually he doesn't, he thinks that 9/11 went as claimed, but with the added factors that the F-15's got close enough to Flight 175 that they were able to fire, but missed and hit WTC 7 instead. The Government has covered up this because the pilots fired without permissions and blew up a building which then fell down. He also thinks that Israel knew it was going to happen and had spies follow the hijackers, but didn't tell the USG, instead they decided to document it, probably hoping it would start an Arab/US war which would benifit the or some such rubbish.

[Undesired Walrus]

I did hear about this story. Allegedly 5 middle-Eastern men were pissed off at the plane being grounded, and left behind a load of Islamist literature on the plane. It is mearly anecdotal evidence, but worth looking into more.

[nlarosa]

Actually he doesn't, he thinks that 9/11 went as claimed, but with the added factors that the F-15's got close enough to Flight 175 that they were able to fire, but missed and hit WTC 7 instead. The Government has covered up this because the pilots fired without permissions and blew up a building which then fell down. He also thinks that Israel knew it was going to happen and had spies follow the hijackers, but didn't tell the USG, instead they decided to document it, probably hoping it would start an Arab/US war which would benifit the or some such rubbish.

WTF he doesn't really believe that does he?:confused: :eek:

[Unfit4Command]

WTF he doesn't really believe that does he?:confused: :eek:

Yes.:)

[Brainster]

This story sounds very unlikely to me. The article claims:

Later, Ballinger was told six men initially wouldn't get off the plane. Later, when they did, they disappeared into the crowd, never to return. Later, authorities checked their luggage and found copies of the Qu'ran and al-Qaida instruction sheets.

Should be pretty easy to check. After all, we know that the hijackers used their own names; if there were six men with Arabic names on the flight manifest it would certainly be well-reported.

[twinstead]

Actually he doesn't, he thinks that 9/11 went as claimed, but with the added factors that the F-15's got close enough to Flight 175 that they were able to fire, but missed and hit WTC 7 instead. The Government has covered up this because the pilots fired without permissions and blew up a building which then fell down. He also thinks that Israel knew it was going to happen and had spies follow the hijackers, but didn't tell the USG, instead they decided to document it, probably hoping it would start an Arab/US war which would benifit the or some such rubbish.

Oh, you're right; I tend to get my assorted truther theories mixed up sometimes.

It's not hard, what with so many different and often conflicting ones.

[Big Les]

That was the only credible online reference I could find when I looked into this the other day, having seen the claim made in this documentary (http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/tv_guide/full_details/World_history/programme_2998.php) and not having heard it before.

Even assuming the men got away cleanly and no attempts were made to find them, where are the supposed documents?

[Undesired Walrus]

Given the non-hype, something probably happened along the lines of a couple of brown/black/foriegn people got pissed off at the grounded flight, and left behind 1 page written in Arabic. All it takes it a steward to say 'Yea, it was a Koran' for the next person to say 'Yea, Islamist literature' and the next to go 'It was Al Qeada papers'.

[Kryptos]

I have heard about this before. My understanding is that this flight was actually to take off from JFK, not Newark, and go to LAX. There was some buzz about this in the days after the attacks, and a few news articles around October 20-22, 2001.

The FBI is investigating whether a fifth plane came within minutes of being hijacked over New York on September 11. nited Airlines Flight 23 was standing on the runway at John F. Kennedy airport, waiting to take off for Los Angeles, when news broke of the attacks on the World Trade Centre. The airport was immediately closed and the pilot announced that the aircraft was returning to the terminal. At that point four male passengers of Middle Eastern appearance stood up in the cabin and began urgently consulting each other, sources told The New York Times. Flight attendants asked them to return to their seats but they refused and "as soon as the door opened these guys bolted", an official said.

The FBI is investigating whether a fifth cell of suicide hijackers, on board a Boeing 767 about to take off from New York for Los Angeles, was thwarted when the flight was cancelled at about the time another Boeing 767 slammed into the World Trade Center.

"We're looking for them [to see] whether they are involved in the larger plot," Joseph Valiquette, an FBI spokesman in New York, confirmed yesterday.

United Airlines flight 23 to Los Angeles was scheduled to leave New York's John F. Kennedy airport at 9 a.m. on Tuesday. Shortly before its scheduled departure, passengers were told the flight was cancelled.

Three men angrily protested and demanded that the flight proceed. They argued so vehemently that UA personnel called police from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which runs the airport, but the three disappeared.

"They got pretty belligerent," Port Authority spokesman Dave Jamieson said yesterday.

UA Flight 23 closely matches the profile of the four aircraft that were hijacked.

"They do seem to be of interest," Mr. Valiquette said of the still-missing UA Flight 23 passengers.

Ballinger, a dispatcher for United Airlines, apparently told the plane to go back to the gate, telling passengers there was a "mechanical problem"

I'm sure they looked at all the flights that were grounded and the FBI spoke to many "suspicious" passengers. Maybe there were immigration issues with these men? If it turned out to be something after investigating it, I expect we would have heard more.

[Civilized Worm]

At least this theory is somewhat plausible.

[DGM]

This wouldn't surprise me in the least. I've often wondered how many other hijackings there may have been without the groundings. Why not? Multiply cities, bring the US to it's knees. From a attack point of view it makes perfect sense.

[Corsair 115]

This wouldn't surprise me in the least. I've often wondered how many other hijackings there may have been without the groundings. Why not? Multiply cities, bring the US to it's knees. From a attack point of view it makes perfect sense.On the other hand, the larger the operation and the more people involved with it, the greater the chance for something to go wrong and possibly tip off authorities.

[DGM]

On the other hand, the larger the operation and the more people involved with it, the greater the chance for something to go wrong and possibly tip off authorities.
True, But I think they knew the confusion the first attack would cause and would think a second wave latter in the day could work. Perhaps on the west coast while all the attention was on the east.

I think the decision to ground all air traffic did save lives that day.

[Bell]

Wasn't KSM's initial plan to indeed hijack a lot of planes? Including in Asia somewhere? Can't remember where I saw or read it though. Iirc one plane was meant to land and the terrorists killing all the male passengers and make some ridiculous claim?

[gumboot]

Wasn't KSM's initial plan to indeed hijack a lot of planes? Including in Asia somewhere? Can't remember where I saw or read it though. Iirc one plane was meant to land and the terrorists killing all the male passengers and make some ridiculous claim?


KSM's initial plan was to blow up about a dozen airliners. This plot was stopped when Philippino authorities discovered the bomb-making lab.

-Gumboot

[Bell]

KSM's initial plan was to blow up about a dozen airliners. This plot was stopped when Philippino authorities discovered the bomb-making lab.

-Gumboot

Thanks Andrew, but I'm sure what I remember was in regards to 9/11. Damn me for not remembering where I saw it.

[MaGZ]

Interesting story. MaGZ IIRC you believe 911 was an inside job. What is your opinion about the story?

I think this was the fifth plane of hijackers and who knows there may have been a six or seventh. KSM wanted several planes to be used in the attack. Also we have the attempted assassination of President Bush that morning by AQ agents posing as newsmen. I suspect all may have been rounded up and tried in a secret military tribunal and then executed.

The story said the hijackers aboard flight 23 had phony IDs. The other hijackers used their real names. Why would this flight of hijackers have phony IDs? The way the government explained the story is phony.

[MaGZ]

WTF he doesn't really believe that does he?:confused: :eek:

A few fine points. I think the pilots in the F-15s from Otis did have permission to shoot down flight 175 but were a bit too late. The missile hit to WTC 7 in my opinion did not cause the collapse of the building, instead it was a controlled demolition. A special national security team brought it down because it was leaning and might have interfered with the rescue efforts at Ground Zero.

[The Silver Shadow]

Anybody give the validity of this article I found on Fox?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34250,00.html

PS: I realize that asking for the validity of Fox news is redundant, but please read the article...

ETA: Through investi-googling (Not only truthers can do this), I discovered this on Seattle PINS
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/38983_main14.shtml

Dare I say that this was just an incident of a security system being on edge after the fact?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The missile hit to WTC 7 in my opinion did not cause the collapse of the building, instead it was a controlled demolition.

Would you do us all a favor and state for the record wether you are a MIHOPper or not?

It's hard for us to address your beliefs when even you don't appear to be certain what they are.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Anybody give the validity of this article I found on Fox?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34250,00.html

PS: I realize that asking for the validity of Fox news is redundant, but please read the article...

From the article you linked to: "Friday, September 14, 2001"

Basically anything from within the first week or two of the event is subject to "fog of war".

[The Silver Shadow]

From the article you linked to: "Friday, September 14, 2001"

Basically anything from within the first week or two of the event is subject to "fog of war".
Check the ETA.

[DGM]

A few fine points. I think the pilots in the F-15s from Otis did have permission to shoot down flight 175 but were a bit too late. The missile hit to WTC 7 in my opinion did not cause the collapse of the building, instead it was a controlled demolition. A special national security team brought it down because it was leaning and might have interfered with the rescue efforts at Ground Zero.
And the reason they had to cover this up was................

Don't stop now your on a roll.

[Oliver]

Paul Thompson's "9/11 Timeline" mentioned UA Flight 23 as
well. I'll take a look if there are follow-up stories about this
after the initial reports:

(After 9:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001: United Flight 23 Hijacking Possibly Averted (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a900hijackingaverted#a900hijackin gaverted)


Shortly after 9:00 a.m., United Airlines Flight 23 receives a warning message from flight dispatcher Ed Ballinger. Flight 23 is still on a runway at JFK airport in New York, about to take off for Los Angeles. Apparently in response to Ballinger’s message, the crew tells the passengers there has been a mechanical problem and returns to the departure gate. A number of Middle Eastern men (one account says three, others say six) argue with the flight crew and refuse to get off the plane. Security is called, but they flee before it arrives. [CBS News, 9/14/2001 (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/14/national/main311250.shtml); Chicago Daily Herald, 4/14/2004 (http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/il10_kirk/news040414_flight.html)] Later, authorities check their luggage and find copies of the Koran and al-Qaeda instruction sheets. Ballinger suspects they got away. “When all we have is a photo from a fake ID, the chances of finding [someone] in Afghanistan or Pakistan are rather slim.” [Chicago Daily Herald, 4/14/2004 (http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/il10_kirk/news040414_flight.html)] A NORAD deputy commander later says, “From our perception, we think our reaction on that day was sufficiently quick that we may well have precluded at least one other hijacking. We may not have. We don’t know for sure.” [Globe and Mail, 6/13/2002 (http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/printarticle/gam/20020613/UNORAM)]


Source:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a900hijackingaverted&scale=0#a900hijackingaverted

[Civilized Worm]

A special national security team brought it down because it was leaning and might have interfered with the rescue efforts at Ground Zero.


Do you have any idea how long it takes to demolish a building? And how the hell to you set it up for demolition WHILE IT'S ON FIRE?

[GT/CS]

A few fine points. I think the pilots in the F-15s from Otis did have permission to shoot down flight 175 but were a bit too late. The missile hit to WTC 7 in my opinion did not cause the collapse of the building, instead it was a controlled demolition. A special national security team brought it down because it was leaning and might have interfered with the rescue efforts at Ground Zero.

Will you please diagram the path a missle would take to hit the lower floors of WTC7? Wouldn't it need to go around a number of other buildings?

[Jonnyclueless]

I still laugh every time I hear that missile story.

[Totovader]

I still laugh every time I hear that missile story.

I'm pretty sure MaGZ does, too- there's no way someone can really believe that nonsense and keep a straight face.

[Big Les]

I agree that this was more than likely a panic-induced bit of (albeit understandable) racism. See also this story (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=401419) - though that was actually initiated by some Asian teenagers who thought it would be funny to scare the (mostly white) passengers by talking about hijacking. (I wouldn't normally use The Mail as a reference but it was reported elsewhere at the time.)