2001, 2010, 2061, 3001 - ACC (spoilers)

[Charles Livingston]

Has anybody else read this whole series. I just completed it. Overall, I loved it. However, the series got worse with each new book and I have one major flaw that pretty much ruins them for me. He never stayed consistent with the story. He even states this as such in 2061 and 3001.

I didnt mind how 2010 (book) followed the movie version of 2001 as opposed to the book, this was due to discoveries (voyager?) about the Jovian system between 2001 and 2010. Additionally, he changed the timeline of the earlier books in 2061 and 3001, mainly because when he wrote 2061 (i believe late 80's) it was clear that 2001 should have been set later (ie, space race didnt advance as quickly as he thought). I can live with this too. However, various things in 2061 and more prominently in 3001 are just different. Mainly, he changed the transformed Dave Bowman, HAL, and Heywood into computer program simulations, rather than actual alive beings (that presumably were beings such as the alien race that created the monoliths). It is possible taht he could have this planned all along (ie even in 2001), but I dont think so, certain things seem to point towards Dave being an actual alive being rather than a simulation in 2001 and 2010. 2061 seems to point in both directions. Also, in 3001 he limited travel and communication to light speed, wherein in the earlier books the monolith race seemed to be past that.

I can understand the earlier changes due to scientific discoveries, but if you are going to write a series of books, i would rather you stay consistent with the storyline. IF you want to continue the story in a new direction, just write a new book with new characters. Anybody else agree/disagree?

[Mark]

Well, I didn't really get the impression that Dave Bowman and Hal were not really alive...just that they were confined by the monolith. After the monolith was rendered inert, I got the impression that they might be free of it.

Overall, I liked the series very much, although I did think 2061 was the weakest of the series. Frankly, I thought 2010 was the best of the series, with 2001 and 3001 tied for a close second.

[Charles Livingston]

Thanks for the reply. Let me first say that I really did love the serires. I think that 2001 was the best, with 2010 a close second. I really didnt care that much for the last two. I guess I got a different impression than you. I think htat becuase they were 'downloaded' onto the virus disk, that they were not really alive. The book said they were 'emulations-simulations' of Dave and Hal, and in 2061 the 'real' heywood floyd continued to live after he was transformed (thats the part of 2061 that made me think they were not alive). 2061 also said that Hal had to recreate Heywood. It made it sound like the 'real' heywood that kept on living was the recreation, but it could probably be the reverse. I guess though, they coudl still be alive but just not be a transformed version of the 'real' Dave bowman, rather a sort of recreation. But to me, 3001 seemed to imply that they were not alive, but were more like computer programs.

Also, why was Heywood not mentioned in 3001? And why was even the alien intelligence now limited to light speed travel only. I really was disappointed with how 3001 wrapped up the series.
Because it changed the plot and was inconsistent, it left a lot of unanswered questions from 2010 and even from 2061. I did however, like the way he brought back Poole.

[gnome]

What I liked the most about 2010 was the introductory explanation of HAL's behavior in 2001. It really made you believe that it was not only explainable but inevitable under the circumstances, instead of just HAL going randomly haywire.

I think it must have been planned that way from the start, if you study HAL's behavior (especially in Kubricks' excellent movie version) after having read 2010, you start feeling you know the exact reason behind HAL's every quirk.

I gave up the series after 2061... it was kind of getting too nebulous for me, but I was a lot younger. I might revisit it now.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Charles Livingston
I think that 2001 was the best, with 2010 a close
Also, why was Heywood not mentioned in 3001? And why was even the alien intelligence now limited to light speed travel only. I really was disappointed with how 3001 wrapped up the series.
Because it changed the plot and was inconsistent, it left a lot of unanswered questions from 2010 and even from 2061. I did however, like the way he brought back Poole.

Well, it was a thousand years after Heywod died. As for whether or not Bowman and Hal were "alive", I guess that depends on what alive means. Then we get into a whole discussion about persistence of consciousness and quantum theory and how consciousness hooks into matter...all of which would probably get me flamed! :D

I guess, now that you mention it, I was a bit disappointed in how the two of them ended up...but I still enjoyed the book a lot.

[Glory]

2001 was a tremendous surprise for me. Being fammiliar with the movie I had expected it to read like stereo instructions. I was hooked.

2010 is one of the best books I have ever read. I was so disapointed that the movie did not include the Chinese. They should have found a way of telling the audience about europa. They had no idea what made it so special.

2061 was very different in tone from the first two. One of the things which I found so appealing about the first two, 2010 in particular, was Clarke's way of humanizing highly intelligent people. We really got to know and understand Chandra and Max and Katherine the Great. I didn't get any of that in 2061. I felt like Clarke was being funny and clever but I did not feel invested in the characters.

3001 was half canned. I had read several of the chapters elsewhere. I think he owed the publisher one last book. His heart wasn't in it and neither was mine.

I try to pretend that the third and fourth books don't exist. I love the first two and have reread them a few times each.

Glory

PS My father's voice is in the film version of 2010. Consequently I love that movie regardless of it's flaws, which were numerous.

[Charles Livingston]

Originally posted by Mark


Well, it was a thousand years after Heywod died. As for whether or not Bowman and Hal were "alive", I guess that depends on what alive means. Then we get into a whole discussion about persistence of consciousness and quantum theory and how consciousness hooks into matter...all of which would probably get me flamed! :D

I guess, now that you mention it, I was a bit disappointed in how the two of them ended up...but I still enjoyed the book a lot.

The reason I mentioned Heywood, was that in 2061 the beings/programs whatever that were HAL and Dave bowman transformed Heywood into whatever they were as well. However, in 3001 only Dave and Hal were mentioned, they never brought up the transformed Heywood.

[Charles Livingston]

Originally posted by Glory
2001 was a tremendous surprise for me. Being fammiliar with the movie I had expected it to read like stereo instructions. I was hooked.

2010 is one of the best books I have ever read. I was so disapointed that the movie did not include the Chinese. They should have found a way of telling the audience about europa. They had no idea what made it so special.

2061 was very different in tone from the first two. One of the things which I found so appealing about the first two, 2010 in particular, was Clarke's way of humanizing highly intelligent people. We really got to know and understand Chandra and Max and Katherine the Great. I didn't get any of that in 2061. I felt like Clarke was being funny and clever but I did not feel invested in the characters.

3001 was half canned. I had read several of the chapters elsewhere. I think he owed the publisher one last book. His heart wasn't in it and neither was mine.

I try to pretend that the third and fourth books don't exist. I love the first two and have reread them a few times each.

Glory

PS My father's voice is in the film version of 2010. Consequently I love that movie regardless of it's flaws, which were numerous.

I couldnt have said it any better than this. Interesting theory about 3001.

[Mark]

Originally posted by Charles Livingston


The reason I mentioned Heywood, was that in 2061 the beings/programs whatever that were HAL and Dave bowman transformed Heywood into whatever they were as well. However, in 3001 only Dave and Hal were mentioned, they never brought up the transformed Heywood.

I forgot about that. I guess it falls under his "variations on a theme" idea, as opposed to actual sequels. You're right, though; that is troubling.

[Renfield]

Originally posted by gnome
What I liked the most about 2010 was the introductory explanation of HAL's behavior in 2001. It really made you believe that it was not only explainable but inevitable under the circumstances, instead of just HAL going randomly haywire.

I think it must have been planned that way from the start, if you study HAL's behavior (especially in Kubricks' excellent movie version) after having read 2010, you start feeling you know the exact reason behind HAL's every quirk.

I gave up the series after 2061... it was kind of getting too nebulous for me, but I was a lot younger. I might revisit it now.


I liked 2001 the most as well. The whole idea of a "thinking" computer basically having a nervous breakdown and becoming psychotic was interesting. Raises the question of, once you make computers that are that complex and that can duplicate what the human brain does that well, how well can you really control them?

[Diamond]

Unfortunately ACC can't write characters or humour. Other than that, they are interesting novels.

No I haven't read 2061 or 3001....

[gnome]

Originally posted by Renfield


I liked 2001 the most as well. The whole idea of a "thinking" computer basically having a nervous breakdown and becoming psychotic was interesting. Raises the question of, once you make computers that are that complex and that can duplicate what the human brain does that well, how well can you really control them?

I don't consider HAL as having been psychotic. He received conflicting instructions and chose, perhaps, the only course of action that would enable him to follow all of them.

[Renfield]

Originally posted by gnome


I don't consider HAL as having been psychotic. He received conflicting instructions and chose, perhaps, the only course of action that would enable him to follow all of them.

One of Hal's instructions was to take care of the crew though, so he never did find a way to follow all those instructions. There was no way he could have.

[Glory]

Originally posted by Renfield


One of Hal's instructions was to take care of the crew though, so he never did find a way to follow all those instructions. There was no way he could have.

Indeed. HAL had been told that the success of the mission was his highest priority. He chose the course of action which enabled him to fufill the majority of his instructions and ensured the success of the mission. What was utterly unpredictable was that HAL would become paranoid when told to conceal information which was vital to the mission's success. He began to speculate about possible reasons for the necessity of secrecy and began to percieve threats to the mission which were not there. Dr. Chandra's achievement is staggering in its twisted way , a computer which can emulate a human mind so accurately that it can become psychotic under extreme circumstance.

Glory

[gnome]

Maybe we're actually quibbling over the definition of "psychotic"... but I see the situation as simpler than that.

No conflict with taking care of the crew--the success of the mission had the highest priority. They were very clear on that, and the fact that he felt capable of completing the mission by himself.

However, his instructions to keep the real mission secret from the crew conflicted with Chandra's instructions and his prime function of being informative, useful to, and honest with the crew.

Hal saw two ways out: for the crew to figure out the secret without him telling them.... which you see in the scene where Hal is hinting to Dave about the strange rumors surrounding the mission--he's hoping Dave catches on.

The second way is not to have a crew to tell the secret to.

You'll note as soon as Dave dismissed Hal's hints, he put his plan into motion immediately, announcing the fault with the communications dish.

No paranoia necessary.

If the numbskulls that gave Hal secret instructions were smarter, they would have asked Dr. Chandra how to instruct Hal to keep a secret.

[Glory]

It was Chandra himself, though, that said HAL became paranoid. He also said that HAL's paranoia increased once HAL had actually lied. Chandra does seem to exhibit a tendency to anthropomorphize HAL, however. He may be assigning human traits to HAL that are not actually present.

Time passing is deceptive because HAL csn think much faster than we can. In the time it took Dave to complete his sentence HAL had already made several decisions and calculated several different ways in which he could carry out the disposal of the crew. He calculated diffrent scenarios with the probability of success for each one and chose the one with the best chances. He had tons of time to think, rethink and double check all his calculations.

Glory

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by Charles Livingston
Has anybody else read this whole series.

Yes, including Arthur C. Clark's short story "The Sentinal", which is not part of the series admittedly but the concepts in the short story parallel the monolith on the moon in 2001:ASO


I had no problems with 2001 being based around Saturn, and 2010 "jumping" to Jupiter. It took nothing away from the story for me.

The series caused me to go on an Arthur C. Clark safari in terms of finding as many books as I could that he had authored or co-authored. I particularly enjoyed the Rama series, and enjoyed his partnership with Genrty Lee.

[gnome]

Originally posted by Glory
It was Chandra himself, though, that said HAL became paranoid. He also said that HAL's paranoia increased once HAL had actually lied. Chandra does seem to exhibit a tendency to anthropomorphize HAL, however. He may be assigning human traits to HAL that are not actually present.

This is an excellent observation: and it occurs to me just now that Hal was acting paranoid... but again it has a logical reason behind it. Once he had decided to dispose of the crew, he planned on completing the mission himself. Thus any threat to him, was a threat to the mission, and he would be forced to be extra-vigiliant, behavior that would resemble human paranoia.

[Glory]

Originally posted by gnome


This is an excellent observation: and it occurs to me just now that Hal was acting paranoid... but again it has a logical reason behind it. Once he had decided to dispose of the crew, he planned on completing the mission himself. Thus any threat to him, was a threat to the mission, and he would be forced to be extra-vigiliant, behavior that would resemble human paranoia.

Yes, it would. I suppose it all depends on how you define paranoia and how you define HAL as a mind. Is there any practical difference between acting paranoid and being paranoid? Is there and practical difference between HAL's being a sentient mind and his acting as though he is one. After all, he mimics human thought so well that we can not really know if he was paranoid or just vigilant.

Glory