An open letter to remaining members of the Truth Movement

[R.Mackey]

Dear Truth Movement supporters,

By now you are probably aware of the dwindling and leaderless nature of the Truth Movement, which was plainly exposed on and around the sixth anniversary of September 11th, only a few days ago. A significant fraction of former members have left the Truth Movement, many recently, perhaps because of this problem or disillusionment with the dubious foundation, fractious infighting, or sometimes disrespectful conduct of a few within the Movement. Another significant fraction of you remain, but have expressed reasonable doubts and concerns about the Movement's future and intended direction. Without dwelling on the causes or laying blame anywhere, I'd like to offer a polite suggestion, one that focuses solely on the positive aspects of your efforts.

Over the last two years I have had conversations with many of you, most of an Internet-enabled nature but a few in real life. I've spoken with those of you from virtually every background, from pre-teenage idealists to your foremost authors and lecturers. I will not dwell on the disagreements themselves. Instead, let me remark that I have found, for the majority of those in the Truth Movement, many admirable qualities:

Concern for Humanity: Most of you show a genuine concern for civilization at large and your fellow Americans, a truly altruistic viewpoint. As there are numerous avenues to make a real difference, there are plenty of opportunities to apply this to good purpose.

Energy and Courage: Quite a few of you have put considerable and sustained effort into promoting your views, and express a desire to act rather than merely speak on the issues. Given the almost overwhelming opposition and derision meted out by the public at large, it is clear that these desires will not easily be extinguished, but merely require direction.

Desire for Organization: There is a natural tendency towards teamwork and more effective activism, as demonstrated by the spontaneous appearance of numerous Truth Movement clubs and splinter groups. Such teamwork is essential for effective activism, if difficult to harness.

Let me give as an example Mr. John Feal, a charity organizer in New York sympathetic to the Truth Movement. While his opinions regarding Sept. 11th are speculative at best and his organization could stand more professionalism, I am awe-struck by his personal commitment and his personal sacrifices. We should help such individuals rather than oppose them, and criticize only in a constructive manner, regardless of how we feel about their politics or approach.

Therefore, let me make the following suggestion to those remaining in the Truth Movement: Apply yourselves to other, worthier humanitarian causes.

I have argued, for the past two years, that there is no compelling evidence for United States Government sponsorship or involvement in September 11th. This does not mean that the Government is perfect, or that there are no deep and troubling problems facing us as a society. There are many, many causes that warrant activism. Unlike the roots of the Truth Movement, these causes serve to address problems that are unarguably real and significant, and demand attention. Activism is enshrined in the United States Constitution for a reason, and that is because activism is patriotic, and fosters a healthy society.

I present here a brief list of organizations that you, as members or former members of the Truth Movement, should consider supporting with your time and energy. This list is only the barest beginning of the myriad organizations that could benefit from your help:


Greenpeace
Amnesty International
United States Peace Corps
Habitat for Humanity
Reclaim The Streets
The Sierra Club
MoveOn
Bill of Rights Defense Committee
Freedom to Marry
The entire spectrum of politics is represented in seasoned, legitimate, honorable activist organizations. Here you can make a difference. Here you can learn from those who have been there, broaden your experiences, and come to a more complete understanding of history, politics, and the nature of social change. Here you can achieve something worthy and memorable, without merely descending into cynicism. Pick whatever works for you. Find your niche. Focus. Learn. Stick with it. Make a difference.

As the saying goes, "Think Globally, Act Locally." You will probably find that a more local cause, perhaps aligned with one of these large organizations, is the best way to start. It is difficult for one to personally confront President Bush about the treatement of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, but it is possible to personally address, peacefully protest, and bring about change in case of human rights abuses in your hometown. The larger, international organizations can help you find these causes as well. You will also find a groundswell of activism at local universities and colleges. Local action leads to personal satisfaction, but also to global change.

I offer this suggestion in friendship. You do not have to agree with my view of September 11th, my politics, or my background -- the choice is entirely up to you, and you may give whatever you feel you can. I urge you all to make a difference, and to seize the day.

Sincerely,
Ryan Mackey

[Digest]

great post.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1716/1561copynp5.jpg

[Reality Believer]

:clap: :bigclap

My sentiments exactly. Do something that matters!

[Drudgewire]

:bigclap

And might I also suggest the NRA as a new group to rally behind. If you want to stay mad at the gummit, buy guns then you can be all THEY WANT TO TAKE MY GUNS AND DESTROY THE CONSTITUTION and really never miss a beat.

Ummm... on second thought I'd prefer most of you were never armed. Yeah, go with Greenpeace. :p

[Civilized Worm]

You want them to take their paranoid delusions to a worthwhile cause? How would that help anyone?

[R.Mackey]

You want them to take their paranoid delusions to a worthwhile cause? How would that help anyone?


I expect it would help them the most.

Practically everyone is mad at the Government. Few of us really know why. Even fewer do anything useful to change it.

Real-life experience trumps all else. That's the theory.

[gumboot]

I think R.Mackey has made and excellent point here. I have no problem with the Truth Movement being angry at the government. I have no problem with them being concerned about the future of their society. I have no problem with them wanting change. I have no problem with them being dedicated to a cause. Those are all noble and admirable attributes to have in a free society.

My only concern is that the cause they have joined is built on lies and ignorance.

Too few people in this world act against perceived problems. Most of us just ignore them. Those in the truth movement have chosen to act against a perceived problem, and that in itself should be applauded. The only problem is their problem simply doesn't exist. There's ample real problems without fabricating new ones.

-Gumboot

[Civilized Worm]

I think they'd be better off taking up role playing games.

[HereticHulk]

What is wrong with wanting truth and accountability?

19 Arabian hijackers did not pull this off with direction from a cave dwelling boogieman!

I'm very disappointed with this forum thus far. You all are NO different than the very "twoofers" you discredit!? You dis their theories with your own theories that your ascertain from other peoples theories. And when someone brings a question that you cannot answer w/ a honest refutation that would result in an actual discussion, thats when the straw-men come in.

[R.Mackey]

As I have neither called anyone names nor injected personal attacks with my letter, your post is in violation of Rule 11, "off-topic posting." Please take this elsewhere. My letter is sincere.

[Viper Daimao]

19 Arabian hijackers did not pull this off with direction from a cave dwelling boogieman!

please try not to be racist. that is an obviously untrue, and misleading characterization.

[Bell]

At least the 'cave dwelling boogie man' can produce better videos than anybody in the twoof movement.

Where do you get the idea OBL was a cave dweller? Before 9/11 he could pretty much go wherever the heck he wanted inside Afganistan.

ETA: Sorry, don't answer, per Mackey's request. Maybe another thread?

[Drudgewire]

:words:

Good lord man, at least use the search function enough to see what some other twoofers come in saying. Even if you're not, it looks like you're all playing from a stupid handbook... and it never works.

You want to debate? Fine. Make a specific point and go with it. But this "I'm disappointed with you guys" rot is retarded, because the last thing we're looking to do is make this a place where idiotic viewpoints, bad science, and willful deception get treated with the same respect as facts and truths WITHOUT a "tm."

[pomeroo]

What is wrong with wanting truth and accountability?

19 Arabian hijackers did not pull this off with direction from a cave dwelling boogieman!

I'm very disappointed with this forum thus far. You all are NO different than the very "twoofers" you discredit!? You dis their theories with your own theories that your ascertain from other peoples theories. And when someone brings a question that you cannot answer w/ a honest refutation that would result in an actual discussion, thats when the straw-men come in.


HereticHulk, show us an example of a serious question raised by 9/11 fantasists. On this forum, we encounter every day recycled nonsense that has been thoroughly debunked and, occasionally, newly-fabricated nonsense that offends by its sheer absurdity. Conspiracy liars have been screaming for years. Show us a single piece of real evidence that supports the myths they promote.

[The Silver Shadow]

19 Arabian hijackers did not pull this off with direction from a cave dwelling boogieman!
What is wrong with where one dwells? Why do you guys still go with this narrow-minded notion that because you live in a cave, you're uneducated? I lived in a tent for a week on an island when I was 13. I really liked that lifestyle. Does that mean I am uneducated?

If you happened to have read anything apart from conspiracy literature, you would have realized that Osama Bin Laden has an education from one of Saudi Arabia's most prestigious universities and he's from one of Saudi Arabia's wealthiest families...

[Bell]

Okay, could a mod please split this thread up?

[maxpower1227]

..Greenpeace?

...MoveOn?!?!

[Drudgewire]

Okay, could a mod please split this thread up?
Pretty please. :)

[Mr. Skinny]

Interesting letter. I hope it's taken in the spirit it was intended, Ryan.

Since your letter sugests that Truth Movement members act locally and volunteer, it made me wonder what type of local activism or volunteer work people on this forum had participated in?

Sorry for the derail, as it's probably a thread of it's own.

Skinny

[jsfisher]

Very nice letter, R.Mackey. Have you posted it anywhere else?

[Mr. Skinny]

..Greenpeace?

...MoveOn?!?!
Max,

These are not among my favorites either, but I think RMackey was trying to also speak to some truthers that are, frankly, kinda militant with their comments, so perhaps he threw them into the mix for that reason.

Dunno.

[R.Mackey]

These are not among my favorites either, but I think RMackey was trying to also speak to some truthers that are, frankly, kinda militant with their comments, so perhaps he threw them into the mix for that reason.

I was going for a range that was well-known and likely to appeal to their political sensibilities, with one or two fliers thrown in for good measure. No particular endorsement was implied. This is not about me, after all.

Some of the responses, however, have been revealing...

[twinstead]

Some of the responses, however, have been revealing...

Yes.

An incredibly intricate plot by the government to kill 3000 innocent people fooling experts from around the world? Yea. It's SOOOOO obvious, dude!

But Greenpeace?! You've got to be kidding!!!! They're a bunch of kooks!

[maxpower1227]

Yes.

An incredibly intricate plot by the government to kill 3000 innocent people fooling experts from around the world? Yea. It's SOOOOO obvious, dude!

But Greenpeace?! You've got to be kidding!!!! They're a bunch of kooks!

Not to get this further off topic, but ask Patrick Moore, one of Greenpeace's founders, what he thinks of the organization.

[R.Mackey]

I fail to see any relevance. It's an organization that supports volunteer work and activism. If it isn't for you, go somewhere else. No hard feelings.

[Civilized Worm]

They should join Al Qaeda, then they could bring them down from the inside.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Not to get this further off topic, but ask Patrick Moore, one of Greenpeace's founders, what he thinks of the organization.

Was it "a band of scientific illiterates using gestapo tactics" or something to that effect?

[maxpower1227]

Was it "a band of scientific illiterates using gestapo tactics" or something to that effect?

I really want to say that sounds accurate, but it seems like an even MORE accurate description of the troothers. I'm so confused now...

[parky76]

The most important thing to realize is that it is now clear the 9-11 Truth will shortly enter into the rhealm of much older and warn out conspiracy theories. JFK, Roswell, Fake-Moon Landing, welcome 9-11 Truth.

They have achieved nothing..and they will achieve nothing. This will be proven next year, and the year after, and the year after.

9-11 Truthers, I hate to tell ya this, but you have lost 6 good years of your life. Wanna lose a 7th? Its your choice.

[Good Lt]

MoveOn

I'm not sure they're really "honorable."

[boloboffin]

I'm not sure they're really "honorable."

That would be a discussion for the Politics forum.

[ConspiRaider]

Yes.

An incredibly intricate plot by the government to kill 3000 innocent people fooling experts from around the world? Yea. It's SOOOOO obvious, dude!

But Greenpeace?! You've got to be kidding!!!! They're a bunch of kooks!
Twin -

Hey, I'm a native Clevelander myself (Tribe's magic number is now 9!) but Greenpeace CANNOT be written off as kooks.

I guess the item that finally got me off my butt to become a regular contributing member of Greenpeace ($20 a month) is their action to prevent destruction of rain forest, tropical forest and old-growth forest. All of that is collectively known as "The Lungs Of The Earth". But we slash and burn it at rates that are horrific, devastating. And these forests are irreplaceable. And these forests play a large role in the positive regulation of the carbon cycle.

Here's an example of Greenpeace activity:
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/press-center/releases2/world-bank-group-s-role-in-ill

Greenpeace is basically saying: Let's not rape the WHOLE FRIGGIN' PLANET.

They'll do other things. They just got in a little boat to temporarily hold up a huge ship of wood pulp, bound for Europe. Because instead of getting that pulp (for paper products) from a managed growth forest designed for that purpose - the wood was taken from Canada's Boreal Forest.

Take a look at the big issues they tackle:
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns

The intent of this Greenpeace organization is to benefit all of us, and the planet, in the long run. Some may quibble with some of their methods? Cool. Not everyone's cup of tea.

Mackey made good points. I'd made similar arguments in other posts, other forums, although I'll betcha $105,000 Mackey's above effort is far more eloquent than were mine.

What a waste of youthful, exuberant enthusiasm are these twoofers.

[Dr Adequate]

What is wrong with wanting truth and accountability?

19 Arabian hijackers did not pull this off with direction from a cave dwelling boogieman!

I'm very disappointed with this forum thus far. You all are NO different than the very "twoofers" you discredit!? You dis their theories with your own theories that your ascertain from other peoples theories. And when someone brings a question that you cannot answer w/ a honest refutation that would result in an actual discussion, thats when the straw-men come in. When the nastiest thing you can think of to say about your opponents, and the first insult that comes to hand, is that they are just like you, this is a sign that something has gone terribly, terribly wrong with your head.

One can observe the same symptom in Young Earth Creationists. This is not good. Be warned.

[jhunter1163]

OP is nominated.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

They should join Al Qaeda, then they could bring them down from the inside.

I had a similar thought. If the troofers were to abandon "teh troof", the only other movement (aside from the Klan, which many of them are already members of) which would allow them to vent their hatreds and stroke their overdeveloped egos is Al-Queada.

Given that 9/11 moonbattery is several times more popular in the arab/muslim world than it is over here, AQ's main pool of potential recruits already has substantial numbers of troofers. They'd probably fit right in.

[qarnos]

Twin -

Hey, I'm a native Clevelander myself (Tribe's magic number is now 9!) but Greenpeace CANNOT be written off as kooks.

I guess the item that finally got me off my butt to become a regular contributing member of Greenpeace ($20 a month) is their action to prevent destruction of rain forest, tropical forest and old-growth forest. All of that is collectively known as "The Lungs Of The Earth". But we slash and burn it at rates that are horrific, devastating. And these forests are irreplaceable. And these forests play a large role in the positive regulation of the carbon cycle.

Here's an example of Greenpeace activity:
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/press-center/releases2/world-bank-group-s-role-in-ill

Greenpeace is basically saying: Let's not rape the WHOLE FRIGGIN' PLANET.

They'll do other things. They just got in a little boat to temporarily hold up a huge ship of wood pulp, bound for Europe. Because instead of getting that pulp (for paper products) from a managed growth forest designed for that purpose - the wood was taken from Canada's Boreal Forest.

Take a look at the big issues they tackle:
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns

The intent of this Greenpeace organization is to benefit all of us, and the planet, in the long run. Some may quibble with some of their methods? Cool. Not everyone's cup of tea.

Mackey made good points. I'd made similar arguments in other posts, other forums, although I'll betcha $105,000 Mackey's above effort is far more eloquent than were mine.

What a waste of youthful, exuberant enthusiasm are these twoofers.



On the other hand...

Greenpeace has always fought - and will continue to fight - vigorously against nuclear power because it is an unacceptable risk to the environment and to humanity. The only solution is to halt the expansion of all nuclear power, and for the shutdown of existing plants.

source (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/nuclear)

[MarkyX]

What is wrong with wanting truth and accountability?

19 Arabian hijackers did not pull this off with direction from a cave dwelling boogieman!



You want truth, but yet you lie just to have an argument? :boggled:

[CHF]

I present here a brief list of organizations that you, as members or former members of the Truth Movement, should consider supporting with your time and energy. This list is only the barest beginning of the myriad organizations that could benefit from your help:

Greenpeace
Amnesty International
United States Peace Corps
Habitat for Humanity
Reclaim The Streets
The Sierra Club
MoveOn
Bill of Rights Defense Committee
Freedom to MarryThe entire spectrum of politics is represented in seasoned, legitimate, honorable activist organizations. Here you can make a difference. Here you can learn from those who have been there, broaden your experiences, and come to a more complete understanding of history, politics, and the nature of social change. Here you can achieve something worthy and memorable, without merely descending into cynicism. Pick whatever works for you. Find your niche. Focus. Learn. Stick with it. Make a difference.

Not gonna happen. For the twoofers to join an average activist group would be to concede that their lives are average.

One of the biggest reasons why people get sucked into 9/11 twoof is that it allows them to feel as though they're special and all-knowing.

They don't want to be just another peace activist group; they want to be the ones who have seen the obvious "truth" that everyone else has missed. You can't get much more special than that.

[Civilized Worm]

I had a similar thought. If the troofers were to abandon "teh troof", the only other movement (aside from the Klan, which many of them are already members of) which would allow them to vent their hatreds and stroke their overdeveloped egos is Al-Queada.

Given that 9/11 moonbattery is several times more popular in the arab/muslim world than it is over here, AQ's main pool of potential recruits already has substantial numbers of troofers. They'd probably fit right in.


I'm not so sure.


Al Qaeda: "OK we're going to have another attempt at hijacking some airliners and flying them in to the Pentagon, does everyone have their boxcutters?"

Twoofer: "LOL BOXCUTTERS! WE NEED THERMITE, REMOTE CONTROLLED PLANES AND DEATH RAYS! HOW ARE WE GOING TO GET PAST THE MISSILE BATTERIES!? WE NEED TO BRING THEM DOWN FASTER THAN FREEFALL SO WE CAN STEAL THE GOLD INSIDE!"

Al Qaeda: "No amount of virgins is worth this!"


WAR ON TERROR = WON!

[Denial]

Great post, R.Mackey. Calling Greeenpeace honorable is streching the term a bit far, though.

[GreNME]

Not a bad OP, R. Mackey.

You know, I have been bouncing around in my head an idea to address such a subject in a different media format, most likely video, so as to be submittable to an outlet like Google Video to see if I can broadcast my appeal to as wide an audience as possible. Like your OP states, there is no need to come at those who belong to such movements with hostility, and I feel that appealing to the intelligence of many of the individuals is more likely to encourage a redirection of enthusiasm to goals that can, in the long run, prove more productive and successful for both the individuals and society as a whole.

In fact, I was wondering if you would be interested in corresponding with me via PM, so that I could ask you some questions. I'm asking in this thread because I don't want to come across as a spammer, given I've only just registered today and am still relatively new.

Nice letter.:)

[R.Mackey]

In fact, I was wondering if you would be interested in corresponding with me via PM, so that I could ask you some questions. I'm asking in this thread because I don't want to come across as a spammer, given I've only just registered today and am still relatively new.

Go right ahead. Door's always open, unless stated otherwise.

[ConspiRaider]

Great post, R.Mackey. Calling Greeenpeace honorable is streching the term a bit far, though.
As mentioned to a poster earlier:

You REALLY have no idea what you are talking about, concerning Greenpeace.

[ZENSMACK89]

The truth movement is doing fine thank you. You just stay here and keep preaching to the Choir. You're making a huge difference.

[beachnut]

The truth movement is doing fine thank you. You just stay here and keep preaching to the Choir. You're making a huge difference.
The truth movement was always a small fringe of people unable to think on their own and unable to think rationally. It will be like the big foot convention, every year a few nuts get together and take action to not do a darn thing.

I can not find one rational being who believes in 9/11 truth. I have not had one online loon present one fact to support anything 9/11 truth said. Why are you unable to produce a fact either?

[1337m4n]

The truth movement is doing fine thank you. You just stay here and keep preaching to the Choir. You're making a huge difference.

Terrible turnout at recent protests and not having accomplished one single thing outside of YouTube doesn't sound like "fine" to me.

[rjh01]

When elected politicians make a big deal out of it then the CT movement deserves some respect. Some politician or other will support any issue that has some support.

[Alferd_Packer]

At least Ryan didn't suggest that that they join PETA.

[Childlike Empress]

Twin -

Hey, I'm a native Clevelander myself (Tribe's magic number is now 9!) but Greenpeace CANNOT be written off as kooks.

I guess the item that finally got me off my butt to become a regular contributing member of Greenpeace ($20 a month) is their action to prevent destruction of rain forest, tropical forest and old-growth forest. All of that is collectively known as "The Lungs Of The Earth". But we slash and burn it at rates that are horrific, devastating. And these forests are irreplaceable. And these forests play a large role in the positive regulation of the carbon cycle.

Here's an example of Greenpeace activity:
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/press-center/releases2/world-bank-group-s-role-in-ill

Greenpeace is basically saying: Let's not rape the WHOLE FRIGGIN' PLANET.

They'll do other things. They just got in a little boat to temporarily hold up a huge ship of wood pulp, bound for Europe. Because instead of getting that pulp (for paper products) from a managed growth forest designed for that purpose - the wood was taken from Canada's Boreal Forest.

Take a look at the big issues they tackle:
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns

The intent of this Greenpeace organization is to benefit all of us, and the planet, in the long run. Some may quibble with some of their methods? Cool. Not everyone's cup of tea.

Mackey made good points. I'd made similar arguments in other posts, other forums, although I'll betcha $105,000 Mackey's above effort is far more eloquent than were mine.

What a waste of youthful, exuberant enthusiasm are these twoofers.


This is a good example for why R. Mackey is wrong in suggesting organizations like Greenpeace and MoveOn. They - for whatever reasons - don't dare to touch the core of the problems we are facing. They simply don't do they job. I've just read their Solutions to Deforestation (http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns/forests/solutions-to-deforestation). They suggest:

The wood products we do use should come from forests that have been managed in an ecologically and socially responsible manner. The best means for determining whether wood products come from such forests is to look for the FSC label. FSC, the Forest Stewardship Council, is an international non-profit association that issues certificates for well-managed forests.


We shouldn't use wood products at all, at least not for paper. We should industrialize Hemp. That's the solution to deforestation. For hundreds of years books were made out of hemp and these are still in the libraries in good quality, while the older books made out of wood paper are already in very bad shape. Now, indutrializing hemp opens a can of worms and threatens a lot of powerful people. Studying the question why hemp wasn't industrialized in the first place, but instead demonized, leads you directly into territory that nobody except "CTs" dare to touch.

Just an example.

[Dave Rogers]

We shouldn't use wood products at all, at least not for paper. We should industrialize Hemp. That's the solution to deforestation. For hundreds of years books were made out of hemp and these are still in the libraries in good quality, while the older books made out of wood paper are already in very bad shape. Now, indutrializing hemp opens a can of worms and threatens a lot of powerful people. Studying the question why hemp wasn't industrialized in the first place, but instead demonized, leads you directly into territory that nobody except "CTs" dare to touch.

OK, a few comments/questions on this.

1. Do we really want all our paper products to be more durable? Ideally some, such as tissues, should break down fairly rapidly. Hemp wouldn't help this at all.

2. How is hemp-based paper superior to cotton-based paper, which is generally expected to last something in the region of 500 years and can be made from clothing wastes? And where, exactly, are the powerful interests that are threatened by the recycling of old clothes?

3. A large scale hemp industry would require the giving over of large areas to grow hemp. That in itself contributes to deforestation. What is the biomass of a hemp plantation per acre compared to the biomass per acre of a managed forest? How many acres of hemp does it take to produce the same quantity of paper as an acre of managed forest, and how does that scale with biomass?

It's very easy to say A is the solution to B. I'd like you to show your working.

Dave

[ConspiRaider]

This is a good example for why R. Mackey is wrong in suggesting organizations like Greenpeace and MoveOn. They - for whatever reasons - don't dare to touch the core of the problems we are facing.

Incorrect - Mackey is NOT wrong in his suggestions. Not in any way. He's making the excellent point - a general one - that there are plenty of positive and proactive organizations that are BEGGING for membership from youths - and anyone else - who care about the positive progression regarding issues we face, and conflicts that confront our Little Blue Globe. Are you actually trying to convince me that Greenpeace's core issues of Responsible Forestry, Ocean Management, Global Warming and Energy, Nuclear Waste and Cleanup, Toxic Chemicals and Genetic Engineering do NOT touch the "core of the problems we are facing"? Really? Where did that little thought come from?

We shouldn't use wood products at all, at least not for paper. We should industrialize Hemp. That's the solution to deforestation. For hundreds of years books were made out of hemp and these are still in the libraries in good quality, while the older books made out of wood paper are already in very bad shape. Now, indutrializing hemp opens a can of worms and threatens a lot of powerful people. Studying the question why hemp wasn't industrialized in the first place, but instead demonized, leads you directly into territory that nobody except "CTs" dare to touch.

So, since we're not using hemp for paper, then that tears it, right? Why care about anything? No hemp - no help. Darn, if we'd just use hemp, then you'd get off of this silly 9/11 Inside Jobbiness and roll up your sleeves and start tackling the really critical issues. DARN! Friggin' Hemp! Reefer Madness! GOSH DARN IT ALL!!!

[Childlike Empress]

So, since we're not using hemp for paper, then that tears it, right? Why care about anything? No hemp - no help. Darn, if we'd just use hemp, then you'd get off of this silly 9/11 Inside Jobbiness and roll up your sleeves and start tackling the really critical issues. DARN! Friggin' Hemp! Reefer Madness! GOSH DARN IT ALL!!!


Where is the Greenpeace campaign? Google "hemp greenpeace" and you find stuff like this (http://members.greenpeace.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4479) where it took only a few posts 'till the participants laughed about "dope smoking hippies". Congratulations, you are faster.

[CurtC]

The Straight Dope on Hemp (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_131.html)

Given the unlikelihood of total decriminalization of cannabis, Cecil can appreciate that proponents of the weed might want to sneak partial decriminalization in through the back door. On the one hand I think, hey, whatever works. But on the other hand I think, this is just the kind of hypocrisy we 60s types used to try so hard to avoid.

[Drudgewire]

The truth movement is doing fine thank you.

Keep reaching for that rainbow, Zen. :D

[twinstead]

Twin -

Hey, I'm a native Clevelander myself (Tribe's magic number is now 9!) but Greenpeace CANNOT be written off as kooks.



Actually, my post was meant to be sarcasm about somebody having no problem thinking 911 was an inside job, but thinking a more reasonable way of contributing to a cause kooky.

But, Go Tribe!

[GreNME]

As mentioned to a poster earlier:

You REALLY have no idea what you are talking about, concerning Greenpeace.

I'm not the person who made the statement you responded to, but I have a large problem with responding so vehemently to someone else's distrust of an organization like Greenpeace. The problem with Greenpeace is not unlike the problem with PETA or the USHS, in that the organizations themselves cannot be accused reliably of engaging in criminal behavior on an organizational level, despite what may be construed as extremist or outright criminal behavior by some individuals who hold memberships. However, these same organizations do have manifested goals that can be construed as extreme in a best-case scenario (like I consider Greenpeace), or dangerous in a worst-case scenario (like I consider PETA). It is all a matter of degrees, but on the whole I can understand and somewhat sympathize with stated distrust of organizations like Greenpeace. I will qualify this by also pointing out that I make such a statement as someone who is quite adamant that our energy sources need to move to renewables ASAP, that I am taking part in such practices by putting more of my own resources into renewables (more "green" automobile at home, installing solar panels, checking viability for wind, recycling, composting, etc.), and that I consider a politician's outlook toward renewable resources (both locally and nationally) when considering whether to vote for them or not (as one of a laundry list of issues, but it still exists on the list).

To sum it up, I am saying that there is quite a large likelihood that someone who does not consider Greenpeace to be a viable positive convservationist or environmental organization has a pretty good idea of what they're talking about. In the least, there is just as much likelihood that they do as there would be otherwise. Not to get into a huge debate over the validity of Greenpeace as an organization, but knee-jerk responses to otherwise constructive criticism does not reflect well on the open and non-confrontational attitude behind the OP.

[negativ]

They should join Al Qaeda, then they could bring them down from the inside.

I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall in the meeting between Bermas and Ayman al-Zawahiri, when Bermas explains that Osama bin Laden is a CIA agent and Al Qaeda are a bunch of Geico cavemen patsies.

[ConspiRaider]

Actually, my post was meant to be sarcasm about somebody having no problem thinking 911 was an inside job, but thinking a more reasonable way of contributing to a cause kooky.

But, Go Tribe!
Cool, Twin, and I absolutely missed the sarcasm. It happens. In real life, I'd have seen your eyes roll and would have known the score. :)

Let's hope the REALLY important issue of our times - whether the Tribe can reduce their magic number to 7 tonight by beating the Tigers - comes to the fore. :D

[negativ]

3. A large scale hemp industry would require the giving over of large areas to grow hemp. That in itself contributes to deforestation. What is the biomass of a hemp plantation per acre compared to the biomass per acre of a managed forest? How many acres of hemp does it take to produce the same quantity of paper as an acre of managed forest, and how does that scale with biomass?

The Hemp Industries Association (http://www.thehia.org/facts.html) website says:

Hemp produces more pulp per acre than timber on a sustainable basis, and can be used for every quality of paper. Hemp paper manufacturing can reduce wastewater contamination. Hemp's low lignin content reduces the need for acids used in pulping, and its creamy color lends itself to environmentally-friendly bleaching instead of harsh chlorine compounds. Less bleaching results in less dioxin and fewer chemical by-products.

For use as textile fabric, Wikipedia says,
Hemp can produce 250% more fiber than cotton and 600% more fiber than flax using the same amount of land.
but doesn't cite a source for the numbers.

[SDC]

Let's hope the REALLY important issue of our times - whether the Tribe can reduce their magic number to 7 tonight by beating the Tigers - comes to the fore. :D

But this is simply breathtakingly vile. I lived through the Tigers around the turn of the millennium -- at least there were never any problems getting seats for the first couple of years at the new stadium. Go Tigers! Crush the Cleveland Lowlifes!

Oh heck, but why should we quarrel when the real enemy is Out There? Here's something every sane person can agree on. Someone -- anyone -- crush the Yankees!

[R.Mackey]

I have to say, this evolved into a totally bizarre discussion. I won't point any fingers, but y'all are so focused on details and your own opinions that you missed the point entirely.

So right now we have a simmering debate over whether or not Greenpeace has earned the rank of an "honorable" activist organization. Well, maybe they have and maybe not. That depends on one's own opinions. I've already stated once that I'm not endorsing any organization in particular, but merely presenting some good places to start. I've also stated that every individual should find a group that she is comfortable with, and it doesn't really matter what that is, so long as one does something.

Still, we have opinions on Greenpeace. How valuable are those opinions?

The valuable opinions are from those who have been there. Either from former or current members or those who support competing institutions. The rest, well...

This is a microcosm of what I'm proposing to the Truth Movement. Go find out about these groups. You have to tear yourself away from Google to do this. You're going to make some false starts. You may find that an organization has been given a bad rap by the press or your friends. You may find that, while criticism of the leadership is valid, your local chapter is top-notch. You may even find that you can bring about change within the organization and fix whatever's wrong with it.

Honestly, are any activist groups perfect? Name one, I dare you.

Somebody mentioned PETA. I don't support them at all, but I considered putting them on the list. They're well-known and organized, and while I disagree with both their mission and their methods, others might not.

Somebody else mentioned the NRA. Another choice I'd consider valid. I have been but am not associated with the NRA, having been there and learned more about it. Still, if it speaks to you, go for it. Make a difference.

One of my close friends chose the 101st Airborne. No lie. He's already seen IED's up close and personal. Not my choice, but do I respect his? You're damn right I do.

A few people are hung up over hemp of all things. If that's your deal, there are organizations that cover this in depth. I fully agree with legalization even though my drug of choice comes in a bottle labeled "Barolo" or "Cote d'Rotie" -- it isn't a cause that I'll personally contribute to, but I respect those who are trying to make it happen.

If you want to trample other people's opinions on what constitutes a valid or more worthy cause, go to Politics. This is all about finding and expressing your opinion, whatever that may be. Let's keep it positive.

[ConspiRaider]

To sum it up, I am saying that there is quite a large likelihood that someone who does not consider Greenpeace to be a viable positive convservationist or environmental organization has a pretty good idea of what they're talking about. In the least, there is just as much likelihood that they do as there would be otherwise. Not to get into a huge debate over the validity of Greenpeace as an organization, but knee-jerk responses to otherwise constructive criticism does not reflect well on the open and non-confrontational attitude behind the OP.
You also haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about, concerning your wholesale slamming of Greenpeace. No clue. Constructive criticism? WHAT? What are you talking about?

You just said this:

I am saying that there is quite a large likelihood that someone who does not consider Greenpeace to be a viable positive conservationist or environmental organization has a pretty good idea of what they're talking about.

That is NOT constructive. That is, in fact, completely ignorant and ill-informed. So all someone has to do - even a 3-year-old child who just learned to put a few words together - is say that Greenpeace is not a positive organization, and they know what they're talking about? Really? And just how did you determine that?

You wouldn't be getting your general negative reaction to Greenpeace from the mass media, would you? You know - those multi-billion dollar mega-corporations that crank out the swill which passes for "news" on the TeeVee and in the newspapers?

Please explain how bringing this issue to the fore is NOT viable:
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/news/congo-report-110407

And other issues whereby Greenpeace made a difference:
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/about/victories

[ConspiRaider]

But this is simply breathtakingly vile. I lived through the Tigers around the turn of the millennium -- at least there were never any problems getting seats for the first couple of years at the new stadium. Go Tigers! Crush the Cleveland Lowlifes!

Oh heck, but why should we quarrel when the real enemy is Out There? Here's something every sane person can agree on. Someone -- anyone -- crush the Yankees!
:D :D :D

Of course you're correct:

Stopping the hated Yankees from purchasing yet ANOTHER World Series is the Planetary Bogeyman For The Ages Ad Infinitum. Overshadows everything else, obviously. Including the fact (I know, hard to believe) that "they" are thinking of raising the price of Dodger Dogs yet AGAIN!!!111one!!11

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

I've noticed in my stumbleupon account that Truthers have been going all out this past week submitting all sorts of truther sites under false categories. They're desperate. It's like the final death throes.

[LibraryLady]

I sent in a report, as I'm at work and can't mod. Remember, you have to report it to get a mod's attention.

[Childlike Empress]

A few people are hung up over hemp of all things. If that's your deal, there are organizations that cover this in depth. I fully agree with legalization even though my drug of choice comes in a bottle labeled "Barolo" or "Cote d'Rotie" -- it isn't a cause that I'll personally contribute to, but I respect those who are trying to make it happen.


While i would like to see THC products legalized, that wasn't my point. Where i live you aren't put in jail for getting caught with a small amount of hashish and i'm not very often in danger of getting caught at all, so legalization wouldn't affect me. This is about the hemp plant, not just one of its incredibly vast variety of products. Read Jack Herer's "The Emperor wears no clothes" (available for free (http://www.hemp4fuel.com/emperor.txt) from www.hemp4fuel.com (http://www.hemp4fuel.com/)) for details.

I didn't want to derail your thread, R., it was only an example for why we don't need and want the old organizations. This is the time of decentralization, the masks are coming down. You 60s types failed, let us do it our way. :)

[Redtail]

Honestly, are any activist groups perfect? Name one, I dare you.



Sigh... My goddaughter was reading over my shoulder and made a suggestion and I was impressed that an 8 year old understood what an activist group was so here goes... Dumbeldore's Army. It's perfection? Aside from making it's members and creator very rich it's dedicated to defending the world from he who shall not be named and death eaters. Also... fictitious.:D

[R.Mackey]

This is about the hemp plant, not just one of its incredibly vast variety of products.

Yes, I understood. Perhaps I should have said that I even agree with legalization. Having grown up in Santa Cruz California, I am extraordinarily familiar with the plethora of applications some have in mind for the lowly hemp plant, from biodiesel to footwear.

Sigh... My goddaughter was reading over my shoulder and made a suggestion and I was impressed that an 8 year old understood what an activist group was so here goes... Dumbeldore's Army.

:D Nah, not perfect. Harry was far too whiny for me in The Order of the Phoenix (the book, haven't seen the film). Darn good try, though. Where do I sign up?