What Skeptic means

[truethat]

My husband is Greek and I was describing some of the exchanges on here and he said "But its a skeptic forum" and I said "yes" and he said "Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker, it seems to me that people think Skeptic means doubter.

I was so glad he pointed this out because its exactly the problem I have in discussing faith with people.

Even though I don't believe in faith for me, I do recognize a sort of validity and resonance of other people's experiences. And so when people tell me about them I will listen to them and think about what they are saying. Sometimes I can see where in my opinion they are making fantasy out of a coincidence or something similar.

But what I've noticed so far on this site and other people who call themselves Skeptics, is that they think being a skeptic means doubting everything at face value until proven otherwise.

Curious if others share this experience or what people have to say about it.


skep·tic also scep·tic (skptk)
n.
1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.
2. One inclined to skepticism in religious matters.
3. Philosophy
a. often Skeptic An adherent of a school of skepticism.
b. Skeptic A member of an ancient Greek school of skepticism, especially that of Pyrrho of Elis (360?-272? b.c.).
[Latin Scepticus, disciple of Pyrrho of Elis, from Greek Skeptikos, from skeptesthai, to examine; see spek- in Indo-European roots.]

[kellyb]

Examining things involves doubt. Not necessarily out-right dismissal, but definitely doubt.

[mr. ottle]

Skeptics are people who apply the scientific method to their everyday lives

[Ichneumonwasp]

Um, the Skeptic "school" in Ancient Greece began in radical doubt. Pyrrho's thrust was that we cannot know the true world.

I don't know enough Greek to know about your husband's claim linguistically. But regarding the history of philosophy he is simply wrong.

I think you may be inferring too much from interactions here. This is a debate board. To debate a topic we must assume a contrary position. Now, it does not need to be a diametrically opposed position, but agreement is not where discussions generally begin in this place.

Most of what goes on is not simply radical doubt, but picking apart the logic of a proposition. Doubting the verity of a claim or evidence is an important part of the process.

There is actually not much that goes on here that Socrates himself did not engage.

[AmyWilson]

Skeptics are people who doubt certain beliefs.

But the James Randi forum isn't even skeptical, they're just closed-minded on purpose and talk crap because their behind a computer. In other words, morons. Any scientist knows that we don't have all knowledge.

[kellyb]

Well hi, Amy. Nice to meet you, too.


:rolleyes:

Jesus...

[joobz]

But the James Randi forum isn't even skeptical, they're just closed-minded on purpose and talk crap because their behind a computer. In other words, morons.
I doubt that.

[mr. ottle]

But the James Randi forum isn't even skeptical, they're just closed-minded on purpose and talk crap because their behind a computer.

I doubt it.

ETA: Darn it, joobz

[Miss Anthrope]

Skeptics are people who doubt certain beliefs.

But the James Randi forum isn't even skeptical, they're just closed-minded on purpose and talk crap because their behind a computer. In other words, morons. Any scientist knows that we don't have all knowledge.

As will any skeptic.

By the way, calling someone a moron while saying "THEIR MORONS", well, it's pretty funny.

[joobz]

I doubt it.

ETA: Darn it, joobz
great minds morons think alike.:D

[Mangafranga]

I'd like it if "sceptic" and "skeptic" meant different things.

[petra10]

I like to study things and look into stuff and then decide if I believe or not.When I was a teenager I read "Chariots of the Gods" and believed it until I done lots of research and figured out it was all crap.
I have done this with lots of things and most of all was done in the days before computors or internet.
I dont necessary doubt everything but I like to research and make my own mind up.So far I have not found any evidence of any superior being or gods.

[Mojo]

My husband is Greek and I was describing some of the exchanges on here and he said "But its a skeptic forum" and I said "yes" and he said "Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker, it seems to me that people think Skeptic means doubter.


People usually post in English here, so it's probably best to use an English definition.

[Darat]

The Online etymology dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=skeptic) states that it's origin is from "'skeptesthai' 'to reflect, look, view'", which is not the same as "to think" however since apparently the first record instance of it being used as "one with a doubting attitude" was 1615 I'd suggest that you're onto a losing battle if you want to get it's use changed back to mean "reflect, look, view".

[Minarvia]

As will any skeptic.

By the way, calling someone a moron while saying "THEIR MORONS", well, it's pretty funny.

I caught that right away, too! :D

[Smiledriver]

Skeptic seems to be someone withholds their judgement until they have sufficent reason to believe. Also, as Randi says they are willing to be shown.

[TV's Frank]

But what I've noticed so far on this site and other people who call themselves Skeptics, is that they think being a skeptic means doubting everything at face value until proven otherwise.


Is this a bad thing?

[JoeEllison]

A skeptic, in general and as far as I see it, is someone who asks for evidence and explanations, instead of just accepting what people tell them. We expect other people to "show their work", especially when they are presenting a new or controversial idea.

If you look at what we do on this site, for instance... even the most anti-woo of us don't stop at saying "you're wrong", or "there's no reason to believe you."

Instead, people say "you're wrong, and here's why", or "there's no reason to believe you, unless you produce some evidence. Where we seem short-tempered and "closed minded" is when people insult our intelligence by presenting the same old nonsense as if it were new and original information worth being open minded about.

That whole open/closed business is part of the problem. It is not "open minded" to treat things as real until they are disproven... it is just lazy thinking. It is not "closed minded" to reject ideas that have no evidence to support them... it is the sign of a person with good critical thinking skills. To paraphrase: the reason you open your mind is the same as the reason you open your mouth, in order to close down on something solid. I'm completely open minded to new evidence. If you haven't got any evidence, then what is there for me to be open minded about? Nothing at all, of course.

[truethat]

As will any skeptic.

By the way, calling someone a moron while saying "THEIR MORONS", well, it's pretty funny.



I love when people do that :j1:


Hmm I'm noticing the same kind of defensiveness that I've seen before. No one is trying to "force a change" Darat, what BATTLE? I simply asked a question to try to understand how people see skepticism.

The defensive knee jerk reaction that always seems to accompany skepticism on forums, puzzles me. It comes across as someone with a grudge of sorts rather than just dissecting the information.

[Darat]

...snip...

Hmm I'm noticing the same kind of defensiveness that I've seen before. No one is trying to "force a change" Darat, what BATTLE? I simply asked a question to try to understand how people see skepticism.

...snip...

My post was made in response to the repeated claim you made in your OP:

...snip...

"Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker, it seems to me that people think Skeptic means doubter.

...snip...

Pointing out that your husband was wrong and posting the evidence is not defensive, it's merely getting the facts right.

[truethat]

I think my husband who is Greek understands his language a little better than you do?

But the point of the original OP is how does one see the idea of skeptic? Not the challenge of the linguistics. I also posted a definition of it that quite clearly states what everyone assumes they were "Correcting" me on.

:rolleyes:


SEE RIGHT HERE>>>>>





skep·tic also scep·tic (skptk)
n.
1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.
2. One inclined to skepticism in religious matters.
3. Philosophy
a. often Skeptic An adherent of a school of skepticism.
b. Skeptic A member of an ancient Greek school of skepticism, especially that of Pyrrho of Elis (360?-272? b.c.).
[Latin Scepticus, disciple of Pyrrho of Elis, from Greek Skeptikos, from skeptesthai, to examine; see spek- in Indo-European roots.]

[Darat]

I think my husband who is Greek understands his language a little better than you do?

...snip...


I have no idea, however I do know that the claim you attribute to him is wrong.

[truethat]

Skeftomai means I'm thinking.


Skeftomaste is: we think

Skepsi means thought.


Skepticos a thinker.



Its a common word that they use every day so I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about.



http://world.altavista.com/tr



Σκέφτομαι. Είστε φιλόσοφος. Σκέφτεστε. Είναι φιλόσοφος.

[JoeEllison]

"Skeptic" is an English word, isn't it?

[bignickel]

My husband is Greek and I was describing some of the exchanges on here and he said "But its a skeptic forum" and I said "yes" and he said "Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker

Wow. I never knew that the word 'skeptic' is Greek. How about 'computer' or 'automobile'; those Greek too? I think, in Greek, Truehat means gullible.

Is there a way to nominate posts for Idiocy Awards? I nominate the OP, when that ability arrives.

[Darat]

Skeftomai means I'm thinking.


Skeftomaste is: we think

Skepsi means thought.


Skepticos a thinker.



Its a common word that they use every day so I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about.



http://world.altavista.com/tr



Σκέφτομαι. Είστε φιλόσοφος. Σκέφτεστε. Είναι φιλόσοφος.

Where is the word "skeptic" in the above? Let me me remind you of your claim:

Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker, it seems to me that people think Skeptic means doubter

I have looked in my Greek dictionary (which is granted only a small one) and can find no entry for "skeptic" and when you actually research the word "skeptic" you find it's origin is as I have already provided.

Just for fun I went and used a couple of online dictionaries and it appears that the Greek word for "skeptic" is "skeptikistis/σκεπτικιστής". And when I looked for that in my Greek dictionary I found it. Your husband I'm afraid is wrong, the Greek language doesn't even use the word "skeptic".

He seems to be confusing words which may indeed share a similar or common etymology - however the statement that "in Greek Skeptic means thinker" is plainly wrong.

[Darat]

"Skeptic" is an English word, isn't it?

Yes - see my post http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2968448#post2968448 for the etymology.

Just pulled my OED volume XIV from the shelf and whilst there is a lot more to the etymology than the quote I provided it doesn't contradict it.

[truethat]

That is such a lame reply that I actually sprayed coffee all over my keyboard laughing.

Oh ok Darat. I stand corrected. You and your little Greek dictionary are certainly more knowledgeable than a person who speaks Greek.


Never mind. :pirateflag

[Z]

Is it so hard to admit you... er, your husband... is wrong?

[truethat]

He speaks GREEK. He's not wrong. People are playing games of semantics to be right.

Its a complete joke.

As I said, never mind. I admit that Darat is RIGHT.

[Z]

He speaks GREEK. He's not wrong. People are playing games of semantics to be right.

Its a complete joke.

As I said, never mind. I admit that Darat is RIGHT.

Ah, but you don't mean it - in Maori, Right means Wrong.

:p

[Z]

In ordinary usage, skepticism or scepticism (Greek: skeptomai, to look about, to consider; see also spelling differences) refers to
an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object,
the doctrine that true knowledge or knowledge in a particular area is uncertain, or
the method of suspended judgment, systematic doubt, or criticism that is characteristic of skeptics (Merriam–Webster).

In philosophy, skepticism refers more specifically to any one of several propositions. These include propositions about
the limitations of knowledge,
a method of obtaining knowledge through systematic doubt and continual testing,
the arbitrariness, relativity, or subjectivity of moral values,
a method of intellectual caution and suspended judgment,
a lack of confidence in positive motives for human conduct or positive outcomes for human enterprises, that is, cynicism and pessimism (Keeton, 1962).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeptic

I certainly don't advocate Wikipedia as a be-all and end-all for defining terms, but it's a good start, in this case.

[truethat]

Wikipedia?????????????


Ok.


Look he speaks Greek and he uses the word every day. This has dissolved into a mess of semantics. The point of his definition was simply a catalyst into the MAIN question of what does SKEPTIC mean to the individuals on this site.

It was a discussion. But par for the course for this site its dissolved into a competition.

[H3LL]

So, as I understand it:

Everyone on this forum using Greek to post is using sceptic/skeptic incorrectly and truehat's husband is right.

All those using English to post are using sceptic/skeptic correctly and truehat's husband is wrong.

Am I missing something?

.

[alfaniner]

...But the James Randi forum isn't even skeptical, they're just closed-minded on purpose and talk crap because their behind a computer. In other words, morons.

"Cupcake Loser Morons", if you don't mind. Don't you have any sense of history?

[Darat]

So, as I understand it:

Everyone on this forum using Greek to post is using sceptic/skeptic incorrectly and truehat's husband is right.

...snip...


No because the word "skeptic" is not a Greek word, which is not to say there isn't a Greek word for "skeptic" just that it isn't "skeptic".

[fls]

Look he speaks Greek and he uses the word every day. This has dissolved into a mess of semantics. The point of his definition was simply a catalyst into the MAIN question of what does SKEPTIC mean to the individuals on this site.

It was a discussion. But par for the course for this site its dissolved into a competition.

I think the problem was that you mischaracterized what it means to doubt with this statement "they think being a skeptic means doubting everything at face value until proven otherwise", which set up an artificial difference between what it means to think or to doubt. This almost guaranteed it would have to devolve into a discussion of semantics. The way that I see most people here use skepticism, the words are interchangeable. To think about something is to consider it in detail and recognize alternate explanations.

Linda

[Darat]

I think the problem was that you mischaracterized what it means to doubt with this statement "they think being a skeptic means doubting everything at face value until proven otherwise", which set up an artificial difference between what it means to think or to doubt. This almost guaranteed it would have to devolve into a discussion of semantics. The way that I see most people here use skepticism, the words are interchangeable. To think about something is to consider it in detail and recognize alternate explanations.

Linda

Well for me it wasn't quite that - the opening post mentioned something that I hadn't come across before i.e. that the Greeks use the word "skeptic" but it means something different to the English word. So I went looking to see if that was the case because I found the idea mildly interesting. Yes it is a bit of an off-shoot from the main thrust of the OP but it was directly addressing a claim made in the opening post so I think it was legitimate point to look at.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Good grief, this thread is causing painful flashbacks to My Big Fat Greek Wedding. *wanders back over to CT land*

[Robin]

My husband is Greek and I was describing some of the exchanges on here and he said "But its a skeptic forum" and I said "yes" and he said "Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker, it seems to me that people think Skeptic means doubter.

I was so glad he pointed this out because its exactly the problem I have in discussing faith with people.

Even though I don't believe in faith for me, I do recognize a sort of validity and resonance of other people's experiences. And so when people tell me about them I will listen to them and think about what they are saying. Sometimes I can see where in my opinion they are making fantasy out of a coincidence or something similar.

But what I've noticed so far on this site and other people who call themselves Skeptics, is that they think being a skeptic means doubting everything at face value until proven otherwise.

Curious if others share this experience or what people have to say about it.


skep·tic also scep·tic (skptk)
n.
1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.
2. One inclined to skepticism in religious matters.
3. Philosophy
a. often Skeptic An adherent of a school of skepticism.
b. Skeptic A member of an ancient Greek school of skepticism, especially that of Pyrrho of Elis (360?-272? b.c.).
[Latin Scepticus, disciple of Pyrrho of Elis, from Greek Skeptikos, from skeptesthai, to examine; see spek- in Indo-European roots.]

Seems to me a simple case of a word that has a different meaning in Greek than it does in English.

[Darat]

Seems to me a simple case of a word that has a different meaning in Greek than it does in English.

Apart from the fact that the word "skeptic" isn't used in Greek.

[Mojo]

Apart from the fact that the word "skeptic" isn't used in Greek.


Whether or not it's used in Greek, and what it means in Greek if it is used, are irrelevant: as far as this forum (and the JREF in general) is concerned it's used as an English word, so it is its meaning in English that is relevant here. The entire premise of the OP is nonsense.

[Darat]

Whether or not it's used in Greek, and what it means in Greek if it is used, are irrelevant: as far as this forum (and the JREF in general) is concerned it's used as an English word, so it is its meaning in English that is relevant here. The entire premise of the OP is nonsense.

I agree - that's probably why the only interesting point in the OP for me was this idea that in the Greek languages they use the word "skeptic" with a different meaning.

[articulett]

Where is the word "skeptic" "in Greek Skeptic means thinker" is plainly wrong.

-plus it's a clause, and should have a comma after "Greek". :)

I'm a "thinker".

[articulett]

So, as I understand it:

Everyone on this forum using Greek to post is using sceptic/skeptic incorrectly and truehat's husband is right.

All those using English to post are using sceptic/skeptic correctly and truehat's husband is wrong.

Am I missing something?

.

Nope. It's truethat and Amywilson who are missing something. I'm guessing marbles. Some synapses aren't connecting either. Maybe we can get them to talk to each other for our amusement. But that's the problem with assorted woo... they don't speak each other's woo.... because they each have their own woo-- the "true woo". They all seem to be having some barely coherent "conversation" that is going on between them and the voices in their head. And it's some weird battle that they are "winning" while everyone else seems to not even understand the game.

All woo is greek to me. But they do amuse.

[articulett]

It was a discussion. But par for the course for this site its dissolved into a competition.

Maybe it's you.

Maybe your communication skills aren't quite as savvy as your Greek husband and you seem to imagine them to be.

[Mojo]

Maybe it's you.

Maybe your communication skills aren't quite as savvy as your Greek husband and you seem to imagine them to be.


The reading comprehension skills don't appear to be up to much either: the OP actually quotes a list of English definitions of "skeptic", one of which corresponds pretty much exactly to the one truethat is objecting to, and none of which correspond to her husband's definition (neither does the Greek root of the word quoted there: "skeptesthai, to examine").

[fls]

Well for me it wasn't quite that - the opening post mentioned something that I hadn't come across before i.e. that the Greeks use the word "skeptic" but it means something different to the English word. So I went looking to see if that was the case because I found the idea mildly interesting. Yes it is a bit of an off-shoot from the main thrust of the OP but it was directly addressing a claim made in the opening post so I think it was legitimate point to look at.

I thought what you found was interesting (and legitimate despite her complaints). I also consulted my version of a greek dictionary, which is really an old medical dictionary. For skeptiko it gives "doubtful". So I guess the question really is, did we doubt her claim or did we think about her claim?

Linda

[Darat]

I thought what you found was interesting (and legitimate despite her complaints). I also consulted my version of a greek dictionary, which is really an old medical dictionary. For skeptiko it gives "doubtful". So I guess the question really is, did we doubt her claim or did we think about her claim?

Linda

I thought about it - but my thoughts were that it was quite doubtful.

[six7s]

Whether or not it's used in Greek, and what it means in Greek if it is used, are irrelevant: as far as this forum (and the JREF in general) is concerned it's used as an English word, so it is its meaning in English that is relevant here. The entire premise of the OP is nonsense.

Indeed :)

Dictionary.com » Word FAQs » Trivia (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/faq/language/t54.html)
How does a word get into the dictionary?
How can I get my word into the dictionary?

A word gets into the dictionary by being used.

That's the only way.

Lexicographers - the people who make dictionaries - don't make words; they find them and record them.

They are like the entomologist who goes into the rain forest looking for new species of beetles.

Similarly, you can't invent a word and petition to have it admitted into the dictionary.

You can invent a word and use it, of course, and if your word catches on it might end up in the dictionary some day.

However, this is extremely unlikely.

No mention of re-inventing a word... perhaps because the likelihood of that being accepted is infinitely improbable


entomologist: according to etymonline.com (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=troll&searchmode=none) that's a word with Greek origins...

Study of bugs 'n' stuff...

Dare say we've found one or two

Ctrl + Alt + DELETE

[Southwind17]

I think we're all being a little hard on truethat with the semantics, but truethat, if you are still watching on, you must surely admit that you did set yourself up for a sucker punch. To enquire of a bunch of self-confessed sceptics subscribing to this forum (and I see you're not exactly a stranger to these parts) whether they agree that sceptics are essentially a bunch of closed-minded ostriches is analogous to asking a janitor (or is that "custodian" - a la "Everybody Loves Raymond") whether he'd rather be a doctor. Come on truethat, what did you expect? Or were you just trying to stir some proverbial to observe the fall-out as part of a psychological experiment? Whichever, I suggest you cultivate a few layers of extra skin if you're planning on sticking around.

[truethat]

No I don't have thin skin and I don't mind attack. My husband was laughing his ass off at the people on here. There's a fine line between being cleverly snarky and just being a fool to win an argument.

The word skeptic in Greek means thinker. I don't care what your Greek dictionaries say, contact a Greek speaking person. It is a regular word used every day to mean thinking.

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

I think the whole things is a real indicator of what is wrong with the way people's intelligence is grown in the world today that the authority of a quick sound bite or a random snatch from a dictionary byline is supposed to be enough "EVIDENCE" to trump someone who actually speaks the language.

I don't want to say what that comes across to me. But it ain't smart.

[six7s]

But it ain't smart.

The evidence to date would suggest that this is quite probably true

Without a doubt

I think

[articulett]

Well she has declared herself a "TRUE SKEPTIC" on another thread. So I guess that makes it so. And her husband agrees, so it must be true.

[Darat]

...snip...

The word skeptic in Greek means thinker. I don't care what your Greek dictionaries say, contact a Greek speaking person. It is a regular word used every day to mean thinking.

...snip...

So far I have provided sources for what I claim, you have not however provided any evidence anyone else can check on, the ball is firmly in your court if you want to convince anyone your claim is correct.

A simple way for you to do so would be to use say an on line Greek dictionary that list the word "skeptic" and defines it as "thinker".

[truethat]

I do have evidence that is outside your comprehension. This is like you saying that I need to dumb down physics to explain it to someone who doesn't understand it because if I don't explain it to the person, its not true. Well if the person can't understand it, its their problem. Not mine.

[mr. ottle]

I do have evidence that is outside your comprehension.

Trot it out anyway. I hope it's more substantial than "I have a Greek husband."

[truethat]

It isn't. Its I know Greek speaking people and word Skeptic means thinker in Greek.

So sorry that you all seem to think you can have an opinion about something you don't understand.

You see this is the basis of my original post. So thanks for proving it rightly. Because what I see a lot on here is not THINKING and then being skeptical but just knee jerk, wanna be right competition. And that is not the same thing as trying to get at the truth of the matter.

The truth is what I posted. But you aren't interested in the truth. You are interested in winning a contest.

But here anyway, this article which I googled (which seems to be what you all consider an education around here, that and Wikipedia) goes into more of what I was intending with the original post.

http://www.realityspoken.com/skeptic.htm


This sums up what I was intending to say.

It is the application of reason to any and all ideas—no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position.

[Darat]

I do have evidence that is outside your comprehension. This is like you saying that I need to dumb down physics to explain it to someone who doesn't understand it because if I don't explain it to the person, its not true. Well if the person can't understand it, its their problem. Not mine.


Your analogy fails since in this instance your only evidence is "what my husband has told me" which as I said is evidence that no one else can check on.

On the other hand I went to look at several sources to see if I could find evidence for your claim and as I said I could find no evidence at all and indeed found evidence that contradicts your claim i.e. that the word "skeptic" is not a word used in the Greek language.

If I am wrong it should be quite easy for you to show that I am wrong by for example using a on-line Greek dictionary. One of the reasons by the way that I was doubtful about your original claim is that I can read quite a bit of Greek and I had never seen (even in Greek "skeptical" articles) the word "skeptic" being used.

[Z]

No I don't have thin skin and I don't mind attack. My husband was laughing his ass off at the people on here. There's a fine line between being cleverly snarky and just being a fool to win an argument.

The word skeptic in Greek means thinker. I don't care what your Greek dictionaries say, contact a Greek speaking person. It is a regular word used every day to mean thinking.

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

I think the whole things is a real indicator of what is wrong with the way people's intelligence is grown in the world today that the authority of a quick sound bite or a random snatch from a dictionary byline is supposed to be enough "EVIDENCE" to trump someone who actually speaks the language.

I don't want to say what that comes across to me. But it ain't smart.

Just because he's Greek, doesn't mean he speaks the language properly.

Or are you saying someone in Queens or the Bronx or a Cajun or a hick from Kentucky is going to always speak American-English correctly?

I'm sure the Greek have a few idiots, too.

The fact of the matter is, if your husband says that "skeptic" is a common Greek word with the meaning of 'thinker', he's wrong, period, point blank, full stop. And the fact of the matter is, a native Greek speaker is MORE likely to be wrong about the facts of his own language, than the scholars and academics who, themselves, are ALSO native Greek speakers, but have the additional benefit of education and experience, who write these lexicons. That's just a fact, TT.

The history of the term 'skeptic' is steeped in doubt and in critical examination of facts; they were opposing the Stoics and the Dogmatics - who styled themselves as 'thinkers' - so 'skeptic' from the onset has ALWAYS referred to doubting and critical thinking, not to thinking.

So in both original AND modern usage, the term is not merely 'thinker', but 'critical thinker'.

Your husband is simply wrong. Deal with it.

[truethat]

Your analogy fails since in this instance your only evidence is "what my husband has told me" which as I said is evidence that no one else can check on.

On the other hand I went to look at several sources to see if I could find evidence for your claim and as I said I could find no evidence at all and indeed found evidence that contradicts your claim i.e. that the word "skeptic" is not a word used in the Greek language.

If I am wrong it should be quite easy for you to show that I am wrong by for example using a on-line Greek dictionary. One of the reasons by the way that I was doubtful about your original claim is that I can read quite a bit of Greek and I had never seen (even in Greek "skeptical" articles) the word "skeptic" being used.



Not true. I posted the definitions for you and the translations which though it is written in Greek you can clearly see its the word SKEPTIC in there and you just dismissed it to play semantic games about how its not the word "SKEPTIC" exactly.

To what end I have no idea since the original question is not the debate over the definition of the word but the application of it.

[mr. ottle]

It isn't. Its I know Greek speaking people and word Skeptic means thinker in Greek.

So sorry that you all seem to think you can have an opinion about something you don't understand.

What I don't understand is what is it about speaking Greek that makes a person the Ultimate Arbiter of what words mean, and how everyone else uses them.

My failure to comprehend that might be due to some defect in me, or JUST MAYBE it's because your argument is spurious.

[truethat]

Just because he's Greek, doesn't mean he speaks the language properly.

Or are you saying someone in Queens or the Bronx or a Cajun or a hick from Kentucky is going to always speak American-English correctly?

I'm sure the Greek have a few idiots, too.

The fact of the matter is, if your husband says that "skeptic" is a common Greek word with the meaning of 'thinker', he's wrong, period, point blank, full stop. And the fact of the matter is, a native Greek speaker is MORE likely to be wrong about the facts of his own language, than the scholars and academics who, themselves, are ALSO native Greek speakers, but have the additional benefit of education and experience, who write these lexicons. That's just a fact, TT.

The history of the term 'skeptic' is steeped in doubt and in critical examination of facts; they were opposing the Stoics and the Dogmatics - who styled themselves as 'thinkers' - so 'skeptic' from the onset has ALWAYS referred to doubting and critical thinking, not to thinking.

So in both original AND modern usage, the term is not merely 'thinker', but 'critical thinker'.

Your husband is simply wrong. Deal with it.



Excellent example. Full stop you are wrong. Full stop you are offering up no evidence to back up any of your claims.

And yet you think this is a valid argument?

This is what I am talking about.

Its just utter silliness that passes for debate.

[Jimbo07]

I'm not interested in the language debate, so let's take up another tack:


It is the application of reason to any and all ideas—no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position.

Okay. I agree. Who here, really, would disagree?

It seems like a problem arises when someone asserts a position which gets picked apart by the application of reason. The assertion may or may not remain standing after being picked apart. If not, the original poster gets angry.

Who is holding on to the sacred cow?

[truethat]

What I don't understand is what is it about speaking Greek that makes a person the Ultimate Arbiter of what words mean, and how everyone else uses them.

My failure to comprehend that might be due to some defect in me, or JUST MAYBE it's because your argument is spurious.



Or just maybe you have no idea what you are talking about and have decided to take the opposite opinion without making any effort at all to try to see if what I am saying is true or not.

But you think that standing as a SKEPTIC means you actually have some sort of platform.

As they said in the article, skepticism is a METHOD not a postion, where is the method here?

Just saying NO I don't believe it is not skepticism in my book. Its the lazy mans way out of having to actually educate themselves beyond what they feel comfortable. And for many it boils down to sitting online cruising google trying to find others to do the thinking for them.

[Hindmost]

No I don't have thin skin and I don't mind attack. My husband was laughing his ass off at the people on here. There's a fine line between being cleverly snarky and just being a fool to win an argument.

The word skeptic in Greek means thinker. I don't care what your Greek dictionaries say, contact a Greek speaking person. It is a regular word used every day to mean thinking.

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

I think the whole things is a real indicator of what is wrong with the way people's intelligence is grown in the world today that the authority of a quick sound bite or a random snatch from a dictionary byline is supposed to be enough "EVIDENCE" to trump someone who actually speaks the language.

I don't want to say what that comes across to me. But it ain't smart.

I don't mean to criticize you or your husband, however, just because a person speaks greek does not automatically qualify them as an expert on the greek language. I speak english and I can slaughter english as much as anyone. If someone were to use me as a source for definitions of english words, it would be a mistake. (or grammar or spelling). (sorry, analyzing and being skeptical)

Back on the OP.

Skeptic: Foremost, being a skeptic is analyzing the world based on valid evidence and the scientific method. The scientific method--properly conducted--guarantees repeatibility of events and physical phenomena. It is essential to dismiss anedotal claims. Being a skeptic is using the tools of science correctly.

I don't know if my definition is in any dictionary, feel free clobber me.

Unfortunately, some claim to be skeptics and really don't understand this position. If someone states: "I am skeptical that we went to the moon." That person is not using the term properly because there is no valid evidence that we did not go to the moon and overwhelming evidence that we did go to the moon.

glenn

[SirPhilip]

Skeptic means world class, award winning beards grown without the use of bulls-it products. It means transcending human anatomical limitations legitimately through permanently fixed scowls and frowns. It means fighting unwritten crime and cosmically atrocious fashion, while wearing roughly the same thing every day. It means using hapless evildoers as footballs while concerned with the welfare of the even more hapless for some reason. It means telling yourself and others that was a party last night, and the fling with the socially awkward female who lacked the sex appeal and optimism of Daphne, the coldly cynical social darwinism and interior filth of Nancy Grace, or the compassion, mannered gracefulness and exterior filth of Columbo, was a mature adult decision.

Thus I say.

[truethat]

I'm not interested in the language debate, so let's take up another tack:



Okay. I agree. Who here, really, would disagree?

It seems like a problem arises when someone asserts a position which gets picked apart by the application of reason. The assertion may or may not remain standing after being picked apart. If not, the original poster gets angry.

Who is holding on to the sacred cow?


Thank you.


There are many sacred cows. Religion is a sacred cow, evolution is a sacred cow. This is why I say I am a true skeptic because I'm not taking it on as Postion to say "I am a SKEPTIC" this is a site of "Skeptics" only to find that non one is interested in actually looking into anything that they don't already agree with?

That's not being a skeptic. That's being a CYNIC to me.

I'm interested in examining everything. Which is why I don't tend to get flipped out about people presenting religious points of view even though its utter nonsense in my personal point of view, I'm interesting in seeing what it means to other people.

I've noticed that this is very confusing to simple thinkers. They have A and B and that's it, they aren't capable of seeing beyond that so everything becomes a fight.

[truethat]

I don't mean to criticize you or your husband, however, just because a person speaks greek does not automatically qualify them as an expert on the greek language. I speak english and I can slaughter english as much as anyone. If someone were to use me as a source for definitions of english words, it would be a mistake. (or grammar or spelling). (sorry, analyzing and being skeptical)

Back on the OP.

Skeptic: Foremost, being a skeptic is analyzing the world based on valid evidence and the scientific method. The scientific method--properly conducted--guarantees repeatibility of events and physical phenomena. It is essential to dismiss anedotal claims. Being a skeptic is using the tools of science correctly.

I don't know if my definition is in any dictionary, feel free clobber me.

Unfortunately, some claim to be skeptics and really don't understand this position. If someone states: "I am skeptical that we went to the moon." That person is not using the term properly because there is no valid evidence that we did not go to the moon and overwhelming evidence that we did go to the moon.

glenn



Good point about the moon. The article i posted I suppose says it much better than I did. This is what I mean. Where is the scientific method in saying "I don't believe you so I'm going to just take the position that you are wrong, without actually investigating it myself, and we'll stick with that"

There is no position to take if you haven't done the work yourself. If you just say you don't believe something without investigating it, its no different than a leap of FAITH in my book.

[Darat]

Not true. I posted the definitions for you and the translations which though it is written in Greek you can clearly see its the word SKEPTIC in there and you just dismissed it to play semantic games about how its not the word "SKEPTIC" exactly.



No I did not dismiss it because I was playing "semantic games", that is in fact what you are trying to do to salvage your original claim. Let me remind you what your claim was:

"Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker,..."

As I have shown (with evidence that you can easily check on) is that this is not the case. I even stated that the words you did provide may share an etymological "ancestor" however a shared etymology does not does not mean they are the same.

I would hazard a guess that your husband was mistaken because he presumed because the word "skeptic" is quite similar to some of the words for thinker or philosopher in Greek and have a similar root they were the same.




To what end I have no idea since the original question is not the debate over the definition of the word but the application of it.

I have explained my interest in your opening posts was confined to the claim you made about the word "skeptic" having a different meaning in modern Greek than it does in English. The rest of your opening post was, to me, just a trite repetition of a fallacy I've heard and read too many times to still be particularly interested in responding to.

[mr. ottle]

As they said in the article, skepticism is a METHOD not a postion, where is the method here?

Read everything Darat has been posting. If we don't reach the conclusion your husband told you to reach, it doesn't mean we don't have a method. We just don't have Unquestioned Faith in your husband's mad language skilz.

Just saying NO I don't believe it is not skepticism in my book. Its the lazy mans way out of having to actually educate themselves beyond what they feel comfortable. And for many it boils down to sitting online cruising google trying to find others to do the thinking for them.

Is asking your husband any better than googling?

Several people here, including me, have said what we mean when we use the word "skeptic." Whether it jibes with your husband's definition is immaterial and uninteresting.

I'm not sure what sort of affirmation you're looking for here. I'm sure your husband is a nice enough man, if that helps.

[truethat]

No but asking about 50 people yesterday and them confirming it is another. Its a Greek word. I mean your argument is based totally on semantics and trying to say that my statement meant something else.

I also do not see the point in this except for being skeptical just for the sake of argument which is stupid in my opinion.

Ok just to settle it.....

Go here

http://world.altavista.com/tr


type in I am thinking

And translate it from English to Greek


and you will get this



Σκέφτομαι

Now if you look you can see that its the word Skeptic in there

The first letter is the Greek S then the K E F TO P A I

The root is the same. Anyone continuing to argue this is just playing games for the sake of winning a semantic game.


ETA I already gave this example by the way. So this is just redundant. If you want to insist that it doesn't mean thinking, well then you're on your own, because I'm done explaining it to the peanut gallery.



And I am interested in you saying what you think Skeptic means and how you approach being a skeptic. I haven't told any of you that you are wrong in your interpretation. I'm curious in how people look at it. The side track of saying my husband doesn't understand his own language, was a bit galling. But that's not my interest in this conversation.

[Darat]

...snip..

evolution is a sacred cow.

...snip...


Evidence for this claim?

...snip..

This is why I say I am a true skeptic because I'm not taking it on as Postion to say "I am a SKEPTIC" this is a site of "Skeptics" only to find that non one is interested in actually looking into anything that they don't already agree with?

...snip...

What is it that "non one is interested in actually looking at"?



...snip...

[B]I've noticed that this is very confusing to simple thinkers. They have A and B and that's it, they aren't capable of seeing beyond that so everything becomes a fight.

Can I suggest you read this article 7 Stupid Thinking Errors You Probably Make and the sections 6 & 7. I suggest this because I note many times in your posts in this thread you make the assertion that people don't agree with you or have come to different conclusions to you because they are "simple thinkers" or "fools" or "cynics" or "what is wrong with the way people's intelligence" and so on. There could be many other reasons for why people disagree, one that comes to mind is that it is you that is wrong?

[truethat]

I am not ever not wrong. I don't think like that. And I have never said that people who disagree with me are stupid or simple etc. I said that people who play games and attack personally are doing this. Calling me names or picking fights and having the idea that there is RIGHT and WRONG, to me is a bit juvenile and ridiculous.

No one is ever completely right or completely wrong. I'm interested in seeing how people come to their conclusions.

I'm not interested in people being a smart ass because they think its clever just for pits and giggles.

Tha'ts annoying to me. But meh, its just me.

[mr. ottle]

To be honest, I don't give half a crap about the origin of the word. I don't care if it's Greek, Yiddish, Pig Latin, or Klingon. Nor do I care how it was originally used.

My interest in this thread is twofold:
1) Why it is so important to you that we acknowledge your husband's etymology.
2) Why you seem to think an ancient definition of a common word changes what we are and how we behave.

Interesting game with Babelfish, but it doesn't really show anything. Type in "skeptic" and translate from English to Greek, then retranslate the result from Greek back to English, and you get "distrustful," which is not at all what "skeptic" means. (What it does mean is that Babelfish is not exactly the Oracle at Delphi.)

[fls]

The word skeptic in Greek means thinker. I don't care what your Greek dictionaries say, contact a Greek speaking person. It is a regular word used every day to mean thinking.

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

I don't think you quite got the point. I'm willing to accept that when your husband and other Greek speaking people use the word skeptic, that it means think. What I am wondering is, when we get information from other notable sources and the Greek root and its subsequent use in English includes "doubt", what it is that excludes that possibility in current Greek. And whether that exclusion is based on a difference in understanding of what it means to doubt.

Also, it's more interesting than answering the "close-minded ostrich" charge. Sorry if that's the direction you wanted this thread to take. I think it's hit or miss whether anyone picks that up at any given time.

Linda

[SirPhilip]

I am not ever not wrong. I don't think like that. You are on the wrong forum. Fine, do you have a cat?

[Mangafranga]

No one is ever completely right or completely wrong.I disagree.

[truethat]

Right so maybe we should use something like ....oh I don't know.....someone who actually SPEAKS the language.

I dont' care if it means Skeptic or not to you the point of the OP is HOW do you approach skepticism. The derailment of that idea onto a game of semantics is silly to me but the other posters would not go forward until that point was addressed. Why did YOU stop at if, if it was no concern to you.

The point of him saying that is just an idea. That some people treat skepticsim as a position rather than a method. The article I posted makes a good point as well

Skepticism has a long historical tradition dating back to ancient Greece when Socrates observed: “All I know is that I know nothing.” But this pure position is sterile and unproductive and held by virtually no one. If you are skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism. Like the decaying subatomic particle, pure skepticism uncoils and spins off the viewing screen of our intellectual cloud chamber." -Michael Shermer, What is a Skeptic?


This is how I am skeptical. I tend to think and rethink everything. I don't take a position and stick with it.

Darat, for example asks how is evolution a sacred cow. Well in that we are not to question it. If we question evolution we are immediately branded an idiot a fool, we have the "scientific theory" means something different than theory mantra thrown at us again and again.

As if its ok to question but not everything. For people who question and think it can be daunting to be in a situation where one person says A is true and the "SKEPTIC" says NO A is not true B is true. And the debate goes in circles, with the Skeptic never doubting or challenging his own position. Nor being OPEN to it being challenged.

I tend to question everything and wondered if there are others who have the same experience is seeing Skepticism treated as a position rather than a method.

[Jimbo07]

Thank you.


There are many sacred cows. Religion is a sacred cow, evolution is a sacred cow.

Something about this statement makes me uncomfortable... maybe it's a sacred cow! ;)


This is why I say I am a true skeptic because I'm not taking it on as Postion to say "I am a SKEPTIC"


No True Scotsman? ;)


this is a site of "Skeptics" only to find that non one is interested in actually looking into anything that they don't already agree with?

This is potentially disingenuous, because how do we know what others have already looked into? My wife accused me of not liking anything new, when I didn't like country music. She didn't seem to acknowledge that I had heard country music before I met her. It's not like it was "new" to me and I was being closed-minded. In fact, I've enjoyed some newer country tunes (think Big n' Rich :) ).


I'm interested in examining everything.


Most of us don't have the time in life to examine everything, and again, perhaps we've already examined some things.


Which is why I don't tend to get flipped out about people presenting religious points of view even though its utter nonsense in my personal point of view, I'm interesting in seeing what it means to other people.

On the whole, I don't get flipped out about others' religious beliefs. In fact, in general, it doesn't even come up in conversation. What I am interested in thinking about is when someone tries to convince me that their point-of-view is correct.

As Dilbert once glibly asked (at the expense of a good date): "Since when is ignorance a point-of-view?"


I've noticed that this is very confusing to simple thinkers. They have A and B and that's it, they aren't capable of seeing beyond that so everything becomes a fight.

I think you'll find both dogmatic and liberal-minded skeptics here. In fact, I think you'll notice both patterns of thought in the same individual on different days, in different moods and on different issues.

It is just as much a mistake to say that JREF skeptics are closed-minded and cynical as you seem to think it is for JREFfers to say that they are always perfectly rational.

[SirPhilip]

As if its ok to question but not everything. For people who question and think it can be daunting to be in a situation where one person says A is true and the "SKEPTIC" says NO A is not true B is true. And the debate goes in circles, with the Skeptic never doubting or challenging his own position. Nor being OPEN to it being challenged. I tend to question everything and wondered if there are others who have the same experience is seeing Skepticism treated as a position rather than a method. I'm still skeptical of your skepticism, and we still don't know if you have a cat or not.

[truethat]

Something about this statement makes me uncomfortable... maybe it's a sacred cow! ;)



No True Scotsman? ;)



This is potentially disingenuous, because how do we know what others have already looked into? My wife accused me of not liking anything new, when I didn't like country music. She didn't seem to acknowledge that I had heard country music before I met her. It's not like it was "new" to me and I was being closed-minded. In fact, I've enjoyed some newer country tunes (think Big n' Rich :) ).



Most of us don't have the time in life to examine everything, and again, perhaps we've already examined some things.



On the whole, I don't get flipped out about others' religious beliefs. In fact, in general, it doesn't even come up in conversation. What I am interested in thinking about is when someone tries to convince me that their point-of-view is correct.

As Dilbert once glibly asked (at the expense of a good date): "Since when is ignorance a point-of-view?"



I think you'll find both dogmatic and liberal-minded skeptics here. In fact, I think you'll notice both patterns of thought in the same individual on different days, in different moods and on different issues.

It is just as much a mistake to say that JREF skeptics are closed-minded and cynical as you seem to think it is for JREFfers to say that they are always perfectly rational.


Excellent!!! That's a great quote.

Btw I don't suggest that JREFers are closed minded and cynical, if I thought that I wouldn't have started the thread, I would have just left the site. But being interesting in how people think, I am trying to wade through the hostility to get to the thinking on here.

[Darat]

I am not ever not wrong. I don't think like that. And I have never said that people who disagree with me are stupid or simple etc. I said that people who play games and attack personally are doing this. Calling me names or picking fights and having the idea that there is RIGHT and WRONG, to me is a bit juvenile and ridiculous.



No that is not correct - for example in the snippet I quoted from you above the fuller quote is:


I'm interested in examining everything. Which is why I don't tend to get flipped out about people presenting religious points of view even though its utter nonsense in my personal point of view, I'm interesting in seeing what it means to other people.

I've noticed that this is very confusing to simple thinkers. They have A and B and that's it, they aren't capable of seeing beyond that so everything becomes a fight.


Could it not be that people find your statements or conclusions confusing not because they are "simple thinkers" but that yourstatements and conclusions are actually confusing?

As for calling names or picking fights - I suggest you re-read your exchanges with just me in this thread, in which you started by stating that I was being "defensive (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2971309#post2971309)", you then moved onto a response that was nothing but a sarcastice misrepresentation of my posts:

That is such a lame reply that I actually sprayed coffee all over my keyboard laughing.

Oh ok Darat. I stand corrected. You and your little Greek dictionary are certainly more knowledgeable than a person who speaks Greek.


Never mind. :pirateflag

I could go on but I think your quotes above make my point for me.


...snip...

No one is ever completely right or completely wrong. I'm interested in seeing how people come to their conclusions.

...snip...

Yet when I actually went to some lengths to explain my reasoning and conclusions you responded with the quote above i.e. with sarcasm and a misrepresentation of my reasoning and conclusion.

[Darat]

...snip...

Darat, for example asks how is evolution a sacred cow.

...snip...



No I didn't - I asked for evidence that it is a sacred cow.

[mr. ottle]

Right so maybe we should use something like ....oh I don't know.....someone who actually SPEAKS the language.

And here you continue with this nonsense. You bitch at us for playing semantic games, but you just. won't. let. it. go.

Fine. Your husband is Zeus. What he says, goes. The word "skeptic" comes from Greek. As does everything else. I could really use a gyro right now.

I dont' care if it means Skeptic or not to you the point of the OP is HOW do you approach skepticism. The derailment of that idea onto a game of semantics is silly to me but the other posters would not go forward until that point was addressed. Why did YOU stop at if, if it was no concern to you.

I gave you the two things that interested me about it, which you conveniently ignore in your quest to question everything. But from my POV, you were as much an obstruction as anyone else on the semantics thing.

The point of him saying that is just an idea. That some people treat skepticsim as a position rather than a method. The article I posted makes a good point as well

Of course it's a method. It's basically the application of the scientific method to all aspects of life. A skeptic is one who does that. Being skeptical is the process of doing that. Skepticism is the view that doing so is the best way to learn.

This is how I am skeptical. I tend to think and rethink everything. I don't take a position and stick with it.

That doesn't necessarily make you skeptical. That could just make you scatterbrained. You pick the best answer that fits the available data, then re-evaluate when you get new data or better analyzing tools.

Darat, for example asks how is evolution a sacred cow. Well in that we are not to question it. If we question evolution we are immediately branded an idiot a fool, we have the "scientific theory" means something different than theory mantra thrown at us again and again.

That's just silly. Of course we're allowed to question it. In fact, it was questioning that led to Darwin's initial theory, and all the legions of enhancements that have been made in the 150-odd years since.

What makes you an idiot and a fool is just dismissing evolution without accounting for why all the evidence fits with evolution so well.

As if its ok to question but not everything. For people who question and think it can be daunting to be in a situation where one person says A is true and the "SKEPTIC" says NO A is not true B is true. And the debate goes in circles, with the Skeptic never doubting or challenging his own position. Nor being OPEN to it being challenged.

I forget -- is this a red herring or a strawman?

Whomever has the evidence wins. As for your your semantics argument, Darat has the better evidence, since you have just your report of your husband's assertion. (At least, until we realized your husband is Zeus. Sorry Darat.)

I tend to question everything and wondered if there are others who have the same experience is seeing Skepticism treated as a position rather than a method.

There likely is. Maybe if you asked that instead of starting out combativie and pointlessly argumentative, you could find out.

[fls]

No but asking about 50 people yesterday and them confirming it is another. Its a Greek word. I mean your argument is based totally on semantics and trying to say that my statement meant something else.

I also do not see the point in this except for being skeptical just for the sake of argument which is stupid in my opinion.

Ok just to settle it.....

Go here

http://world.altavista.com/tr


type in I am thinking

And translate it from English to Greek


and you will get this



?????????

Now if you look you can see that its the word Skeptic in there

The first letter is the Greek S then the K E F TO P A I

The root is the same. Anyone continuing to argue this is just playing games for the sake of winning a semantic game.

That is not relevant to your claim that skeptic doesn't mean doubt.

And to be honest, I'm starting to doubt your original claim that "skeptic" is a word in Greek. I am unable to come up with that letter combination when I play around with online translators, or when I input the Greek letters into google. And that your "proof" was to find a word with a similar root makes me suspicious that you and your husband have been playing semantic games similar to my claim that "corps" and "corpse" do not mean the same thing and it's silly for you to carry on as though they do.

Linda

[truethat]

There is no claim that skeptic doesn't mean doubt. Read the original post and it has the definition there. Why would I post the definition if I was challenging it?

Why would I suggest that is about the APPLICATION of the meaning not the definition of it that is of interest to me?


The reason I perhaps am getting frustrated is at the level of nonsense going on here.

The word SKEPTIC when it is PRONOUNCED. When you hear the sound of the word Skeptic in Greek its referring to thinking.

Anyway never mind, I'm sure this is just more of the same "playing at thinking" rather than actually engaging in it.

For those that did catch the point of the OP and contributed to it, thanks it was interesting to read.

For the rest. LMAO. :words:

[mr. ottle]

Snottiness -- the last refuge of a lost argument.

Good luck.

[fls]

There is no claim that skeptic doesn't mean doubt. Read the original post and it has the definition there. Why would I post the definition if I was challenging it?

This is what you said (well, what you said your husband said, anyway):

"Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker, it seems to me that people think Skeptic means doubter."

Why add the last part unless Skeptic doesn't mean doubter?

Why would I suggest that is about the APPLICATION of the meaning not the definition of it that is of interest to me?

But any of my comments I have made to that point you have ignored, while addressing only my comments you say you want to ignore. Does that make sense to you?

The reason I perhaps am getting frustrated is at the level of nonsense going on here.

The word SKEPTIC when it is PRONOUNCED. When you hear the sound of the word Skeptic in Greek its referring to thinking.

I'm afraid you have lost credibility with me on this matter. This looks like a last ditch effort and you have already demonstrated that you are willing to play fast and loose with the truth. Those two things alone tell me I should be skeptical of this claim without confirmation.

Anyway never mind, I'm sure this is just more of the same "playing at thinking" rather than actually engaging in it.

Actually, this discussion has been an excellent refutation of the distinction you were trying to make in your OP. Rather than doubting your claim as to the meaning of "skeptic" in Greek until presented with evidence otherwise, we all thought about it, searched for additional information, and when we couldn't find confirming information, asked for your evidence. We then thoughtfully considered what you presented and explained why it did not support your assertion. I did not begin to doubt until I had a chance to look at what had been presented. And even now, I don't consider the matter closed by any means. Does that not fulfill what you've written about what it means to be a True Skeptic?

And the accusations of hostility and nonsense seem unfounded, or at best, premature.

For those that did catch the point of the OP and contributed to it, thanks it was interesting to read.

For the rest. LMAO. :words:

As I pointed out earlier, not everyone is interested in responding, yet again, to that particular strawman. Actions speak louder than words.

Linda

[Steven Howard]

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

Don't you find it equally funny that you're lecturing a bunch of English speakers about the meaning of an English word based on your secondhand knowledge of Greek?

[Jimbo07]

Anyway never mind, I'm sure this is just more of the same "playing at thinking" rather than actually engaging in it.


That's fine.

What, in this case, would have stood out as an example of engaging in thinking, rather than playing at thinking?

[Southwind17]

truethat's husband is conspicuous by his silence on this matter. I'll bet he's well and truly in the dog-house for opening his big, Greek mouth. Or has truethat now disappeared with a print-out of this thread to her divorce lawyer, citing "diminished etymology" as grounds for seeking a break-up?!

[six7s]

I am a true skeptic

McEvidence?

...this is a site of "Skeptics" only to find that non one is interested in actually looking into anything that they don't already agree with?

McHuh?

Do you mean "no-one is interested"?

If so, you are being ridiculous

If not, please clarify

Either way, please at least try to curb your habit of posting cryptic nonsense

Thank you

You're welcome ;)

[truethat]

That's fine.

What, in this case, would have stood out as an example of engaging in thinking, rather than playing at thinking?


I found that you engaged in thinking and posted in such a way. I found most of the other comments on here decided to focus on the specific definition rather than the concept of what I was saying, skepticism as a concept.

You seemed to try to get at what I was intending even if I wasn't clear.

[Robin]

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

So what you are suggesting is that everybody is right about their own language. For example what I think a word means in English must be the correct definition because English is my first language? Right?

[Elind]

skep·tic also scep·tic (skptk)
n.
1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.

.....inasmuch as they have not been satisfactorily shown to be valid to the best of current knowledge.

[articulett]

I'm not interested in the language debate, so let's take up another tack:



Okay. I agree. Who here, really, would disagree?

It seems like a problem arises when someone asserts a position which gets picked apart by the application of reason. The assertion may or may not remain standing after being picked apart. If not, the original poster gets angry.

Who is holding on to the sacred cow?

Oh, I know, I know-- pick me... I know who it is!... is she married to a Greek, by chance? Um.... does she consider herself the TRUE SKEPTIC? Is she a "thinker"? Could she be asserting that something is true and that everyone on a skeptics forum is childish and awful for not just believing her???

[articulett]

I smell ye old "I'm skeptic of the skeptics argument"-- and she did call one of the best supported and amazing scientific understandings of our time, a "sacred cow"? That is not something I've heard anyone who understands evolution to say-- but that is something I've heard many a woo say.

Of course truethat is big on hyperbole, self-righteous defense, anecdotal husband endorsement, and platitudes-- and very low on useful information, evidence, facts, or charm.

I am everlastingly amazed at the people who come here certain they have something to teach us all while being so very clueless as to how glaring their gaps in learning are. But they do amuse.

[articulett]

Skeptic means world class, award winning beards grown without the use of bulls-it products. It means transcending human anatomical limitations legitimately through permanently fixed scowls and frowns. It means fighting unwritten crime and cosmically atrocious fashion, while wearing roughly the same thing every day. It means using hapless evildoers as footballs while concerned with the welfare of the even more hapless for some reason. It means telling yourself and others that was a party last night, and the fling with the socially awkward female who lacked the sex appeal and optimism of Daphne, the coldly cynical social darwinism and interior filth of Nancy Grace, or the compassion, mannered gracefulness and exterior filth of Columbo, was a mature adult decision.

Thus I say.

Well now!-- That makes a little more sense.

[Southwind17]

My husband is Greek and I was describing some of the exchanges on here and he said "But its a skeptic forum" and I said "yes" and he said "Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker, it seems to me that people think Skeptic means doubter."

I was so glad he pointed this out ...

I'd like to bet you're not so glad now!

Given the cause for so much of the debate emanating from this thread I thought I'd go right back to the beginning. I work in an office with a Greek lady. She's well-educated (degree qualified) and intelligent, but by no means a professed linguist. I asked her first if the word "sceptic" (I'm English, sorry) exists in the Greek language. She replied "yes - skeptikos". I then asked her what, in her mind (no looking at dictionaries, etc.) she believes the definition of "sceptic" is - simple as that - no context. I asked her to write it down after due consideration. She emailed me this:

Sceptic – one who instinctively questions and/or doubts; a cynic

Whether this definition is precisely right or wrong is immaterial, but so far as I'm concerned it unequivocally and neatly concludes the debate over truethat's husband's eminence when it comes to linguistics.

But what I've noticed so far on this site and other people who call themselves Skeptics, is that they think being a skeptic means doubting everything at face value until proven otherwise.

Given the above I rest my case. Truethat's husband seems, amongst other Greek speakers and reputed dictionaries, to be the only one harbouring his definition.

skep·tic also scep·tic (skptk)
n.
1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.

Having identified this definition, which contradicts hubby's, what possessed truethat even to open the debate? Admittedly, there are degrees of scepticism, ranging from simply doubting and questioning to bordering on cynicism and, yes, you will encounter people professing to be sceptics who simply dismiss out of hand. But truethat has been around. She knows how people react here.

Truethat - if you can't stand the heat ...

[Dr Adequate]

Σκέφτομαι

Now if you look you can see that its the word Skeptic in there

The first letter is the Greek S then the K E F TO P A I The letter which you claim is a P is actually an M. Could you not have checked?

I still have no idea what, if anything, your point is, I just thought that you'd like to know.

[thaiboxerken]

I speak Japanese and in Japanese "skeptic" means "smarter than TrueThat." Don't bother looking it up in any Japanese dictionary, just trust me because I speak Japanese.

[Mojo]

I dont' care if it means Skeptic or not to you the point of the OP is HOW do you approach skepticism. The derailment of that idea onto a game of semantics is silly to me but the other posters would not go forward until that point was addressed.


The "game of semantics" was started by the OP, which claimed that because a word had a particular meaning in Greek, a similar English word should only be used for the same meaning.

I have, in the past, used the word "wetter" to mean "more wet". I now find that in German, the word means "weather". Would you claim that I shouldn't use it to mean "more wet"? That's the argument you make in the OP as far as the word "skeptic" is concerned.

[Southwind17]

The "game of semantics" was started by the OP, which claimed that because a word had a particular meaning in Greek, a similar English word should only be used for the same meaning.

I have, in the past, used the word "wetter" to mean "more wet". I now find that in German, the word means "weather". Would you claim that I shouldn't use it to mean "more wet"? That's the argument you make in the OP as far as the word "skeptic" is concerned.

What's the German for "father"? What about "weather father", like if he's a dad and does the weather forecasts?!!!

[Southwind17]

I speak Japanese and in Japanese "skeptic" means "smarter than TrueThat." Don't bother looking it up in any Japanese dictionary, just trust me because I speak Japanese.

... I really think so!

[six7s]

I have, in the past, used the word "wetter" to mean "more wet". I now find that in German, the word means "weather". Would you claim that I shouldn't use it to mean "more wet"? That's the argument you make in the OP as far as the word "skeptic" is concerned.

If push comes to shove in this bizarre move for a more Laconic, Spartan dictionary, you - in Nor Flanden - have local dialect as an option :)

More Wet: Pea Sindahn
More Dry: Ghiza Pyntmayte

[Jimbo07]

I found that you engaged in thinking and posted in such a way.

Thank you... I think. However, I don't know, but I'm wondering if you're equating "engaging in thinking" with a somewhat less confrontational style?

There has been some acceptable reasoning here, even from those making "other comments." Just because someone is harsh, does not automatically make them wrong.


You seemed to try to get at what I was intending even if I wasn't clear.

Sort of... I had many of the thoughts that others have expressed here. Again, many people have many different approaches, at many different times, to skepticism.

...

Either way, however we wind up sorting-out the language issue, "doubt" is probably a healthy component of "thinking." Doubt has served me well in a practical sense, as coworkers keep sending me chain emails or telling tall tales over lunch. My boss relies on me now to do checks at snopes.com whenever he gets a weird email. The only consideration is that you have to know when to curtail doubt (usually when quick action, with limited information, is required).

[bignickel]

I speak Japanese and in Japanese "skeptic" means "smarter than TrueThat." Don't bother looking it up in any Japanese dictionary, just trust me because I speak Japanese.
Ah, that's why I could never find Skeptic magazine in Japan. The title probably made no sense to the nihonjin.

[Z]

See, TT, here's the real problem:

You come to a skeptic forum, and in the process of setting up the OP, you made a specific claim. That claim, that in Greek, Skeptic means Thinker, can NOT go unexamined, in a forum for skeptics. That claim, like all others, is to be examined (thus, the term skeptic, from the original Greek for 'examine').

In examining that claim, we have consulted the lexicons and other Greek speakers, and found that claim to be unsupported. Skeptic is not a word in Greek. There are words with similar-appearing structures, which may even share a common root; but the actual word 'skeptic' does not, itself, exist in the Greek.

So you have since moved the goalposts, and instead are now claiming that you can see 'skeptic' in words like 'skeftomai', so they must have a similar meaning. Yet, as pointed out by others, you can see words like 'corps' in 'corpse', 'heat' in 'wheat', and let's not even talk about 'assume' or 'dictionary'.

In this 'semantics game', as you've chosen to call it, what's happening, is that you've presented a claim, and the skeptics are examining that claim; and rather than join in the skepticism, you've instead taken on your claim as a sacred cow, defending it dogmatically against all evidence.

So in a way, our attack on your initial claim IS exactly what this thread is about - we're demonstrating an actual skeptical methodology, while you're demonstrating a dogmatic methodology. Rather than simply accepting your husband's claim, we're examining that claim, and finding it invalid; and rather than examining the claim yourself, you're dogmatically attempting to defend his claim, using methods that skeptics first began criticizing the stoics for ages ago.

So while your purpose for posting this thread may have been to get at how people approach skepticism, the fact is that the discussion over the meaning of 'skeptic' is itself a fine demonstration of the skeptical approach versus the dogmatic approach.

Congratulations for starting a fine thread!

[articulett]

... I really think so!

Not to get off topic... but it appears your avatar is turning Japanese... I really think so....

(oh... and what's wrong with doubting everything until proven otherwise? I think that's prudent-- and way cool too.)

[mijopaalmc]

No I don't have thin skin and I don't mind attack. My husband was laughing his ass off at the people on here. There's a fine line between being cleverly snarky and just being a fool to win an argument.

The word skeptic in Greek means thinker. I don't care what your Greek dictionaries say, contact a Greek speaking person. It is a regular word used every day to mean thinking.

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

I think the whole things is a real indicator of what is wrong with the way people's intelligence is grown in the world today that the authority of a quick sound bite or a random snatch from a dictionary byline is supposed to be enough "EVIDENCE" to trump someone who actually speaks the language.

I don't want to say what that comes across to me. But it ain't smart.

Apparently, you seemed to have missed that words change meaning over time. Specifically, "skeptic" and its ancient Greek root "skopeo/skopeomai (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %2395112)" mean to "look at, examine", making "skeptikos (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %2394711)" "one who looks at examines". What you are doing is taking the meaning of the modern Greek cognate for "skeptic" and projecting it back onto the English word, which was derived from the ancient Greek word.

[six7s]

No True McThracian

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1760246f1fcc9ec13e.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=8436)

[Southwind17]

Not to get off topic... but it appears your avatar is turning Japanese... I really think so....

I suppose it's the vapors that are affecting me ... I really think so ... (BTW - I've got your picture ... I've got your picture!)

[Mercutio]

Not to be contrarian or anything, but my Greek dictionary does have the word "skeptic". It is an English/Greek dictionary, so perhaps it is merely transliterating the english word, but it does not appear so, as it gives the masculine and feminine adjective endings as well as the base word "skeptic" itself. And yes, further down the page are skeftikos and skeftomai, so it is a separate word. These latter are "thoughtful" (skefticos) and "think about, think up, have in mind, etc." (skeftomai), whereas "skeptik|istis, ~istria" is defined as "sceptic".

[Z]

Not to be contrarian or anything, but my Greek dictionary does have the word "skeptic". It is an English/Greek dictionary, so perhaps it is merely transliterating the english word, but it does not appear so, as it gives the masculine and feminine adjective endings as well as the base word "skeptic" itself. And yes, further down the page are skeftikos and skeftomai, so it is a separate word. These latter are "thoughtful" (skefticos) and "think about, think up, have in mind, etc." (skeftomai), whereas "skeptik|istis, ~istria" is defined as "sceptic".

Fascinating. My own dictionary translates 'skeptic' into 'skeptikistis', which, itself, has a different origin and root from 'skeftomai'. The root is clearly different - like 'cleft' and 'klept', they share a similar structure and sound, but have very different meanings.

Sounds like some general confusion on the part of TT's hubby.

[Mercutio]

Has anyone asked El Greco to visit this thread?

[mijopaalmc]

Not to be contrarian or anything, but my Greek dictionary does have the word "skeptic". It is an English/Greek dictionary, so perhaps it is merely transliterating the english word, but it does not appear so, as it gives the masculine and feminine adjective endings as well as the base word "skeptic" itself. And yes, further down the page are skeftikos and skeftomai, so it is a separate word. These latter are "thoughtful" (skefticos) and "think about, think up, have in mind, etc." (skeftomai), whereas "skeptik|istis, ~istria" is defined as "sceptic".

The point is, as I mentioned earlier, the modern Greek meaning meaning of the word seems to have developed independently of its English cognate, which seems to derive from the earlier ancient (Attic) Greek meaning. Nonetheless, it is interesting to note that, even in the Classical period, the adjective skeptikos meant "thoughtful", making the absolutive usage mean something close to "one who is thoughtful" (which could could conceivably be different than "one who thinks; thinker"), whereas the verb skopeo/skopeomai meant "look at; examine".

[Darat]

As an aside: After all these years this is still what I like about this Forum.

[Mercutio]

As an aside: After all these years this is still what I like about this Forum.

Way to kill the thread, dude...

[six7s]

Way to kill the thread, dude...

Evidence?

[Darth Rotor]

But the James Randi forum isn't even skeptical, they're just closed-minded on purpose and talk crap because their behind a computer. In other words, morons. Any scientist knows that we don't have all knowledge.
Learn English, if you please.

Your "isn't" and "they're" don't match up. Try "aren't" and "they're" or "isn't and "it's." Since you referred to the James Randi forum, singular, "isn't" and "it's" would work best. However, you would have been better to use "James Randi forum posters" initially, since you refer to a collective group of people who post here, for the rest of the remark, and thus "aren't" and "they're" would have been the way to go.

If You Had Any Clue.

By the way, I am not a scientist, and I also know that we don't have all knowledge.

Edited for civility. Please remember to attack the argument, not the arguer.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Edited for civility. Please remember to attack the argument, not the arguer.

DR
"The things we think but no one says."

Jerry McGuire.

DR

[Jimbo07]

Evidence?

- No posts in over 24 hours?
- Lacklustre response since then?
- No reappearance of truethat?

If it ain't already dead, it's dying... ;)

[fls]

As an aside: After all these years this is still what I like about this Forum.

I've been thinking that this could serve as an answer to the question posed by the thread title. A skeptic is someone who enjoys these kind of discussions?

Linda

[Ivor the Engineer]

I've been thinking that this could serve as an answer to the question posed by the thread title. A skeptic is someone who enjoys these kind of discussions?

Linda

Well then I'm not a sceptic. But I'm guessing you were already thinking that...;)