My Wife Wants to Open A New Age Store

[skepticpagan]

My wife wants to open a small new age store. I want to support any and all of her ambitions and endeavors, but this one is definitely a humdinger. Admittedly, I like that whole new-agy motif, but in a physical way. It's neat walking into a new age store. The candles and incense smell great; the artwork and jewelry and sculptures are beautiful. However, the ideas behind new age are all obviously bogus. I don't believe any of that supernatural crap.

So.....

How do I live with this, or accept this? On one hand, the believers are going to buy this stuff somewhere, so why not from her? On the other hand, it's not right to perpetuate these false ideas and hopes. Every new age store I've been in has a sign that says, "For Curio Purposes Only". Looks like a pretty good disclaimer to me. I take it to mean, "This is all bogus. Don't sue us if your Abundance candle doesn't make you rich." Am I just trying to justify a crooked business?

I'm not going to get divorced if she opens the store. I just don't know how to deal with it after that.

[firecoins]

be a capitalist. If it makes money, go with it. Next year this time, you can have a tv show telling people about their dead relatives.

[baron]

I've bought stuff from new age stores and I don't believe any of it. Whatever "it" might be.

[H3LL]

Donate some of the profits to JREF.


Much as I hate to say it.

Most of the effect sceptics have in the general population of allegedly well educated (high literacy rate) countries is tiny.

Most of the effect sceptics have in the general population of allegedly poorly educated (low/er literacy rate) countries is vanishingly small.

Science and technology continue to deliver using a sceptical, evidence based method but succeed in producing items that are increasingly mysterious and inaccessible to the general population. Meanwhile, science and technology is under deliberate attack by several, well funded pressure groups with easy access to gullible hearts and minds.

Increasingly I'm under the impression that sceptical reasoning is not going to be either popular or common while humans continue to be human and the need to believe is stronger than the desire to understand.

Go for it.

I would consider such a venture to be benefiting from "Idiot Tax".

Idiot Tax being a phrase I use for some wilful and dumb act that you do that results in you losing money.

e.g. Putting all your ID documents, credit cards and cash in one purse and "resting" it on the next seat while travelling on public transport (true story from a colleague working in China). The, unsurprising, subsequent loss of said purse would be "Idiot Tax".

Buying Tarot cards from your wife's shop would come under the definition of Idiot Tax.

The up-side being you benefit from Idiot Tax.

If you want to do something, insist that one shelf of books is your choice. Someone may pick up The Demon Haunted World and have their life changed. It did for me.


Not a great way to look at it,but I'm very close to seeing the world in exactly this light.

.

[skepticpagan]

be a capitalist. If it makes money, go with it. Next year this time, you can have a tv show telling people about their dead relatives.
Is that really your point of view or just sarcastic blather? I got a dilemma here, man. Play Dr. Phil for a minute and lay it on the line. Or beat it.

[qayak]

How about a New Age Skeptic store? Instead of having "magical" crystals that people can wear around their necks to give them suoer duper magic powers, your wife can sell crystals with an explanation of how they are formed and that they make beautiful jewellry to wear around your neck.

The problem with New Age stores is that they replace the truth with such boring myths. There is a store, recently opened in my town, that sells all manner of things. Marble boxes made in Thailand, shells, rocks, gemstones, butterflies, stone beads, etc., etc. It is owned by a geologist and her husband.

Everything in the store has a story behind it. How it was formed, what area of the world it comes from, the artists who made it, etc. I check out the store weekly as you never know what new thing will be there.

Most of the New Agers I know buy their bobbles from this store. At least they can rely on the authenticity of what they are paying for.

[skepticpagan]

I would consider such a venture "Idiot tax".

LOL!!! I love it!

If you want to do something, insist that one shelf of books is your choice.

Hmmm. I didn't want to be involved, but that's a good idea. Why not have a complete skeptical section in a new age woo-woo shop? It's the ultimate irony. Two opposing views in the same place. If that's not a great selection, I don't know what is.

But I still have this odd feeling about it. I don't mind benefiting from the Idiot Tax, until I think about the fact that Sylvia Brown and the like are also benefiting. I guess the only difference is that Sylvia doesn't have a sign or start her sessions with, "This is for curio purposes only."

[Jimbo07]

Is that really your point of view or just sarcastic blather? I got a dilemma here, man. Play Dr. Phil for a minute and lay it on the line. Or beat it.

Okay. It can, in a sense, be a money-making business. You are providing perfectly legal products for profit. Certainly, at a base (but genuine) level of moral development, this would be perfectly fine.

At a higher level, you might feel some apprehension at providing a product which, while legal, promises more than it can deliver. There are a couple of points that can be made in favour of the business:
i) Healing crystals really can just be pretty rocks, in which case you have exchanged (some) value for money!
ii) The business operator can choose which New Age products to carry. For example, the operator could forbid oneself from carrying anything which promised to cure cancer.

It depends.

What are your wife's interests? Do the two of you share beliefs? Differ? I suspect that she won't want you working at the store, because you won't create the right 'atmosphere.' By atmosphere, I mean talking to the woos in their own language (which might be blocking spiritual energy or some damn thing).

ETA:


"This is for curio purposes only."

She almost certainly does! Expect a big business like hers to have its legal house in order...

[skepticpagan]

i) Healing crystals really can just be pretty rocks, in which case you have exchanged (some) value for money!
ii) The business operator can choose which New Age products to carry.

Right. The nondescript material purchases are just that. The products I am apprehensive about are the ones that promise some outcome on the package, and the books. You know the books. Most of them are full of nonsense.

What are your wife's interests? Do the two of you share beliefs? Differ? I suspect that she won't want you working at the store, because you won't create the right 'atmosphere.' By atmosphere, I mean talking to the woos in their own language (which might be blocking spiritual energy or some damn thing).

It's very interesting. Sometimes I think she likes the fact that I'm a skeptic. The contrast makes it challenging and fun. We don't judge each other at all for our beliefs, or lack thereof. (Yes, I judge everyone else.) She doesn't really expect me to believe any of it. Out of respect, I probably would not mess with her customers. I would just smile and nod, like I do at wedding and funerals.

hmmm... I'm really starting to think this might work.

[skepticpagan]

I wrote: Sylvia doesn't have a sign or start her sessions with, "This is for curio purposes only."
Jimbo07 wrote: She almost certainly does! Expect a big business like hers to have its legal house in order...

Wow. And they still take her words to be true? Well, at least their Idiot Tax rate is much higher. :D

[Jimbo07]

Wow. And they still take her words to be true? Well, at least their Idiot Tax rate is much higher. :D

No, you see, all the true believers will understand that she just has to cover her bases against the mean ol' regulators. They all know that she's for real, and just giving a winky git to the men-in-black.

:rolleyes:

ETA: Her site has phrases like, "Also realize that there are many different ways to get from one place to another in your life. Sylvia and Chris will outline one path, among many, for you to consider." Seems like a pretty convenient "out," although I have to admit, there was less disclaimer stuff than I thought. Perhaps they're more careful at the local level where certain bylaws exist...

[tkingdoll]

Meh, I think people are being diplomatic and kind, instead of saying "what's the difference between condoning selling this crap, and running a tarot hotline?"

[skepticpagan]

Meh, I think people are being diplomatic and kind, instead of saying "what's the difference between condoning selling this crap, and running a tarot hotline?"
Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand which way your post is leaning.

[AgeGap]

Make sure you use Feng Shui to determine the best place for the skeptic books.:D Put them in a box under the counter.

Love and light,
New Age(Gap).

[tkingdoll]

Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand which way your post is leaning.

I have been in plenty of new age shops. They all sell tarot cards, phrenology heads, and similar debunked or plain misleading hooey alongside the incense and candles. Most of my local ones sell Loose Change on DVD. I can't see what the difference between selling and promoting that sort of misinformation/false hope is and starting a tarot hotline.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

So, it is either divorce or ingenious murder plot...










(Just kidding :p , I vote "support her".)

[H3LL]

I can't see what the difference between selling and promoting that sort of misinformation/false hope is and starting a tarot hotline.

Well you should.

The former is selling other people's lies the latter is lying yourself.

Perhaps similar to the difference between selling [insert celeb auto/biography] and writing [insert celeb auto/biography].

It's not as if an unsuspecting sceptic is walking in and is suddenly overwhelmed with a desire to buy magic crystals and phrenology heads.

PS - Look up retrophrenology for a giggle. :D

[Zep]

Rule 1: The customer is always right.
Rule 2: The customer is not allowed to leave the shop with their money.
Rule 3: In case of issues with Rule 1, see Rule 2.

[Miss Anthrope]

It is possible to sell candles and incense that don't guarantee to do mystical, woo things, isn't it? Why not sell dream catchers as simple curios? Why not sell the art and what not, but not carry the tarot cards and assorted woo garbage? It can still have the ambiance without the woo.

I can't support the hypocrisy of selling it with woo attached. Who wants to feel like like Sylvia "Screw em if they believe this crap" Browne? And make no mistake, if you sell that nonsense knowing it's crap, you are no better.

[Mycroft]

My wife wants to open a small new age store. I want to support any and all of her ambitions and endeavors, but this one is definitely a humdinger...

How serious is she?

It costs a lot of money to rent a space, acquire an inventory, get a business license and hang a shingle. Do you guys have the means to do this or do you have financing lined up?

It occurs to me that maybe the questions to ask might be financial questions rather than ethical questions. Does she have a business plan? How profitable is this kind of business? What is the competition? Are you guys ready for the kind of risk this venture entails?

Once you have those out of the way, once you've established this is something that could really happen, then is the time to address the ethical questions.

[CFLarsen]

Well you should.

The former is selling other people's lies the latter is lying yourself.

Perhaps similar to the difference between selling [insert celeb auto/biography] and writing [insert celeb auto/biography].

It's not as if an unsuspecting sceptic is walking in and is suddenly overwhelmed with a desire to buy magic crystals and phrenology heads.

You are missing the point.

What is the difference to the customer? Not the skeptic, but the average person?

[Cain]

I'm not going to get divorced if she opens the store.

Maybe you should get a divorce. Question: I see a lot of threads where people are talking about their spouse or fiance, asking for advice on how to deal with a certain situation. Isn't there something slightly weird about consulting with public strangers in dealing with these matters? What if she discovered this thread?

Jumping off Mycroft's post, you could always attempt to sabotage her ambitions by stressing the financial realities of opening a small business (~80% close down in their first five years). Moral condemnation suggests you're rejecting what (I gather) she probably considers an important part of her identity, whereas monetary factors can be viewed as purely exogenous. It's just a better -- that is, more impersonal -- way to discourage her.

[rjh01]

Rule 1: The customer is always right.
Rule 2: The customer is not allowed to leave the shop with their money.
Rule 3: In case of issues with Rule 1, see Rule 2.

Rule 4. The customer can be right out of their minds, misinformed but never wrong.

Work with your wife. Help her all you can. Opening a shop means she will be working 12 hour days, 6, 7 days a week (or more). No sick days off. She will need your support.

Either that or get a divorce, before she signs any contracts.

[skepticpagan]

I can't see what the difference between selling and promoting that sort of misinformation/false hope is and starting a tarot hotline.

OK. I see your point now. I had a brainfart earlier. Your first post makes sense now. :blush:

[skepticpagan]

So, it is either divorce or ingenious murder plot...










(Just kidding :p , I vote "support her".)
Oh no way!

(We don't have any life insurance.)

Jus' kiddin' ;)

[El Greco]

I have an easy way out of the dilemma: If you were sure that that business would earn you 100 million in one year, would you do it yourself (independently of your wife) ?

If you answer "yes" or "I don't know", then I think you get my point.

If you answer "no", then things are not going to go well.

[skepticpagan]

It is possible to sell candles and incense that don't guarantee to do mystical, woo things, isn't it? Why not sell dream catchers as simple curios? Why not sell the art and what not, but not carry the tarot cards and assorted woo garbage? It can still have the ambiance without the woo.

I can't support the hypocrisy of selling it with woo attached. Who wants to feel like like Sylvia "Screw em if they believe this crap" Browne? And make no mistake, if you sell that nonsense knowing it's crap, you are no better.

I don't disagree. But how can I dictate what she can and can not sell in her own store? Plus, she is the one who is selling the stuff. And she doesn't believe that it's crap.

[skepticpagan]

It costs a lot of money

It will be very small and will not be counted on to pay the bills. Just used for extra money.

[skepticpagan]

Cain wrote: ... people are talking about their spouse or fiance, asking for advice on how to deal with a certain situation. Isn't there something slightly weird about consulting with public strangers ... ?

I have never received quality responses like this anywhere else on the net. The fact that we are anonymous takes away some of the emotional bias that sometimes clouds people's advice.

What if she discovered this thread?

Not too worried. Like I said, we don't judge each other for our beliefs. Plus, I made it clear here that I was not considering leaving here. I simply wanted advice on dealing with the issue. (or maybe I just wanted to know if I'm being Sylvia Brown-ish for supporting my wife.)

[skepticpagan]

I have an easy way out of the dilemma: If you were sure that that business would earn you 100 million in one year, would you do it yourself (independently of your wife) ?

If you answer "yes" or "I don't know", then I think you get my point.

If you answer "no", then things are not going to go well.
Hmm. Interesting. In that scenario, there is only one reason I would run the store by myself. I would donate the money to the JREF prize. Can you imagine someone claiming to have real supernatural powers, turning down a simple test worth $101 million dollars? It would bury Sylvia Brown, John Edwards, and every other fraudster out there who has made up a lame excuse to avoid the test.

Aside from that, I wouldn't run this kind of store independent of my wife. So I guess that means either things are not going to go well, or I'll have to just live with the situation. But I do think that I should at least put a skeptic section in there to add what balance I can to the equation.

[tkingdoll]

Well you should.

The former is selling other people's lies the latter is lying yourself.

Perhaps similar to the difference between selling [insert celeb auto/biography] and writing [insert celeb auto/biography].

It's not as if an unsuspecting sceptic is walking in and is suddenly overwhelmed with a desire to buy magic crystals and phrenology heads.



A successful tarot hotline will be manned by more than one member of staff. Just like this shop, if successful, will one day be manned by more than one member of staff. Maybe that member of staff is on commission, maybe just minimum wage. Either way, it's the in member of staff's, the shop owner, and the bank manager's interest to sell as much of the most popular, largest profit-margin crap as possible. A business is meant to make money, and as much of it as possible. No bank manager will fund a business that has no intention of making a profit. And if you make a profit, you grow.

I don't care what skeptics might buy in a new age store. Skeptics are not most people. I care what naive, desperate or gullible people buy.

To address other points in this thread:

Why the hell would anyone want to buy a dream catcher if they didn't actually believe it might work? I bet that at least 80% of the dream catcher market is people who are desperate for a solution to their or their child's bad dreams.

Labelling everything a curio is a strange idea. If you start selling homeopathic remedies (as my local new age stores do), will you label it 'placebo water!'?

I accept that hypothetically everyone has their price, after which ethics become thinner. I have mine (it's very high but it exists). But that is indeed hypothetical. No-one is going to offer me millions to market Sylvia Browne. If they did, I may feel differently about it. I don't know. I'm not actually facing a real ethical dilemma unlike the OP poster.

So what it comes down to, for me, is the following:

1 - Give your support to your wife to do something you are ethically opposed to. I would say this is very likely to influence her decision to do it.

2 - Do not give your support to your wife to do something you are ethically opposed to. This may or may not influence her decision to do it. Either way your conscience is clear.


Skepticpagan, I think you would find it helpful if you looked at this as a generic 'something you are ethically opposed to' and categorise it alongside the other things you are ethically opposed to.

For example, if you were a strict veggie and ethically opposed to meat, and your wife wanted to open a steakhouse.

If you find no difference in your feelings, then it looks like your support for your wife's financial endeavours and her beliefs are more important to you than upholding your ethical principles. That's fine. Love is funny like that, and not all principles are equal.

But please don't fall into the 'well if we didn't do it, someone else would' trap. That's been used as a justification for a lot of things - hell, under that banner you should condone your wife becoming a hooker and drug dealer in Amsterdam if she fancied it. It's also the justification for much unethical and illegal behavior. While a new age store is not illegal, personally as a skeptic who is familiar with the evidence against the efficiacy of the items they stock and the promises they make, I find them unethical.

I would rather say 'well, someone is going to do it, but at least it's not me'.

[Big Les]

If I had unlimited disposable income, I would certainly buy some of the stuff in new age shops for curio value only. I think a goodly proportion of customers do so, even if many might at the backs of their minds think there "might be something to it". I also enjoy visiting them in a way

I think there's a big difference between goods and sales. The goods themselves can only promise so much, the belief is on the part of the buyer. Whereas readings, reiki, and other services involve rather more active and deliberate fraud (or level of provider delusion). To me, that makes it much worse to have a shop selling such services alongside the arguably more neutral trinkets. I still wouldn't be comfortable if my partner was setting up a shop like this, because the BS factor is simply unavoidable, and she (and by extension you) will be a "part of the problem" rather than the solution.

You have two choices - wash your hands of it (not her!) and have nothing to do with it but offer your moral support. Or, take an active interest (or even financial interest) and have a stake of some kind that allows you to moderate what's sold, and how. I like the idea of a sceptical books section very much.

Good luck whatever happens - your personal relationship is what matters.

[H3LL]

Teek, I would have agreed with you 100% and then some not too long ago.

I used to believe that the sceptical view was right and worth sacrifices to educate and promote and that sceptics were the most open to new ideas and willing to examine and critique evidence.

Unfortunately the last nail in that fantasy coffin was driven home on this very forum with the discussion and realisation of how extensive and fondly required the comfort zone of the ignore feature is to many members (you included, if memory serves me right). I couldn't stomach posting here for some time afterwards.

Many woos would seem to deliberately protect their version of the world by selective blindness to that which does not fit. Unfortunately, sceptics are just as selective, it would seem.

I have yet to see an answer to the question of how it is a beneficial tool for promoting scepticism and/or critical thinking.

My embryonic conclusion - not fully developed yet - education of people away from woo is ultimately hopeless when those that purport to be educating follow similar practises.

Meanwhile - fleece them blind and use their money to do what little you can.

Skepticpagan would be doing more than most by donating some profit to the JREF and having a sceptical book supply in his wife's shop. At least he would not be preaching to the choir.

.

[tkingdoll]

Teek, I would have agreed with you 100% and then some not too long ago.

I used to believe that the sceptical view was right and worth sacrifices to educate and promote and that sceptics were the most open to new ideas and willing to examine and critique evidence.

Unfortunately the last nail in that fantasy coffin was driven home on this very forum with the discussion and realisation of how extensive and fondly required the comfort zone of the ignore feature is to many members (you included, if memory serves me right). I couldn't stomach posting here for some time afterwards.

Many woos would seem to deliberately protect their version of the world by selective blindness to that which does not fit. Unfortunately, sceptics are just as selective, it would seem.

I have yet to see an answer to the question of how it is a beneficial tool for promoting scepticism and/or critical thinking.

My embryonic conclusion - not fully developed yet - education of people away from woo is ultimately hopeless when those that purport to be educating follow similar practises.

Meanwhile - fleece them blind and use their money to do what little you can.

Skepticpagan would be doing more than most by donating some profit to the JREF and having a sceptical book supply in his wife's shop. At least he would not be preaching to the choir.

.

I find "some people use the ignore feature, therefore it's OK to sell hokum" an odd justification.

Not sure to what discussion you refer, but I can confirm that I have no-one on my ignore list, and have historically had no more than three people on there in total for maybe a few weeks each because they insulted me personally and it physically upset me to see their avatar/name. In that regard it was the sensible thing to do, I've used it neither extensively nor fondly, and you appear to be talking rubbish.

Sorry, I really can't see what "skeptics are not infallible, therefore it's OK to deliberately sell woo" is all about. I am simply saying that if someone is going to sell woo, personally I am happier that it's not me because I would prefer it if people didn't promote pseudoscience generally, so I won't contribute. Your personal feelings towards an internet forum of skeptics are not relevant to this discussion, surely? You're talking about philosophy, we're talking the nuts and bolts of selling dreamcatchers.

[skepticpagan]

Wow. This is so great. I wish you all lived in my neighborhood. Well, not really, for your sake. I live in Texas, where the religious zealot ratio is quite undesirable. Anyway...

Thanks for all your ideas and opinions. I don't think much more can be said about the issue. So I'll go and reflect. Plus, if this goes on too long, it might morph into another subject. Wouldn't want that. Thank you all again. Your input is priceless.

[Darth Rotor]

What is most important to you: your marriage or your principles? Whichever is the more important, they can both be important, will inform how you proceed.

FWIW: does she have a business plan? Is she trying to get an SBA financing? Has she done a market study?

FWIW # 2: Marriage works best when we is greater than me.

Best of luck to you both.

DR

[tkingdoll]

Wow. This is so great. I wish you all lived in my neighborhood. Well, not really, for your sake. I live in Texas, where the religious zealot ratio is quite undesirable. Anyway...

Thanks for all your ideas and opinions. I don't think much more can be said about the issue. So I'll go and reflect. Plus, if this goes on too long, it might morph into another subject. Wouldn't want that. Thank you all again. Your input is priceless.

Good luck (fnar) with whatever you decide. Everyone prioritises differently, and everyone's marriage is different. You will do what you gotta do and while it might not be what I'd do, that doesn't mean a darn thing when it comes to doing what's right for you.

But let us know what happens!

[korenyx]

Just a bit of retail advice: tell her to try to open before December. There was a really great shop here in Wichita that sold Mexican imports but he opened after the first of the year. The shop was closed before Christmas season started.

Kore

[qayak]

Sorry, I really can't see what "skeptics are not infallible, therefore it's OK to deliberately sell woo" is all about. I am simply saying that if someone is going to sell woo, personally I am happier that it's not me because I would prefer it if people didn't promote pseudoscience generally, so I won't contribute. Your personal feelings towards an internet forum of skeptics are not relevant to this discussion, surely? You're talking about philosophy, we're talking the nuts and bolts of selling dreamcatchers.

You know, I almost agree with you. However, there are some important things that override your position for me.

First, people are aloud to believe what they want without my interference. People are allowed to send all their savings to Benny Hinn, Sylvia Brown, or Mother Teresa, so why aren't they allowed to drop a load of it in a new age store?

Second, people are allowed to teach their kids false things. They can teach them all manner of BS about god without anyone getting upset, why can't they be taught about the effectiveness of crystals so a new age store can make a profit? There's no child abuse here!

So, adults and children are allowed to believe in the wooishness sold in New Age stores and they are allowed to spend as much of their hard earned cash as they want.

If I owned such a store, I would see to it that they parted with as much of their money as possible. Afterall, if I don't get it, some other woo vender will.

[qayak]

Just a bit of retail advice: tell her to try to open before December. There was a really great shop here in Wichita that sold Mexican imports but he opened after the first of the year. The shop was closed before Christmas season started.

Kore

It's a new age store! They're after the solstice/equinox crowd. :D

[athon]

How about a New Age Skeptic store? Instead of having "magical" crystals that people can wear around their necks to give them suoer duper magic powers, your wife can sell crystals with an explanation of how they are formed and that they make beautiful jewellry to wear around your neck.

The problem with New Age stores is that they replace the truth with such boring myths. There is a store, recently opened in my town, that sells all manner of things. Marble boxes made in Thailand, shells, rocks, gemstones, butterflies, stone beads, etc., etc. It is owned by a geologist and her husband.

Everything in the store has a story behind it. How it was formed, what area of the world it comes from, the artists who made it, etc. I check out the store weekly as you never know what new thing will be there.

Most of the New Agers I know buy their bobbles from this store. At least they can rely on the authenticity of what they are paying for.

There has to be a middle road which offers a good opportunity here. I agree that this idea has some merit.

Look at it this way - a lot of us here like that sort of stuff (as you said, a lot of it looks nice, is pretty, smells good etc.), but hate the nonsense attributed to it. Thing is, most people feel that way; I know of a lot of people who buy crystals and incense and stuff but really aren't convinced either way of it doing anything mystical.

Selling fairy ornaments and crystals with a few books on the shelves on skepticism might be a great compromise.

It would be a ballsy move, but it could pay off nicely.

Athon

[Orphia Nay]

I agree, athon.

Skepticpagan would be doing more than most by donating some profit to the JREF and having a sceptical book supply in his wife's shop. At least he would not be preaching to the choir.

Well said.


Skepticpagan deserves credit for both respecting his wife's views and for standing up for his own.

Speaking personally, when I went woo for a bit, I surrounded myself with woo, but skeptical viewpoints still leaked in through the cracks of my uncertainty. I can think of few better places for skepticism to be promoted than in a new age store.

I can't remember the thread, but recently someone posted about "The God Delusion" seemingly selling well in the Religion section of a bookshop, which rang true to me.

I'd love to read the continuing story of this proposed shop, and see how the skeptical material sells, having worked in bookshops myself. I'd like to see suggestions for books and items for sale.

[tkingdoll]

You know, I almost agree with you. However, there are some important things that override your position for me.

First, people are aloud to believe what they want without my interference. People are allowed to send all their savings to Benny Hinn, Sylvia Brown, or Mother Teresa, so why aren't they allowed to drop a load of it in a new age store?

Second, people are allowed to teach their kids false things. They can teach them all manner of BS about god without anyone getting upset, why can't they be taught about the effectiveness of crystals so a new age store can make a profit? There's no child abuse here!

So, adults and children are allowed to believe in the wooishness sold in New Age stores and they are allowed to spend as much of their hard earned cash as they want.

If I owned such a store, I would see to it that they parted with as much of their money as possible. Afterall, if I don't get it, some other woo vender will.

Then why are you here instead of selling healing crystals in an ebay shop?

Seriously, there is money out there to be made. You can fool anyone into buying a magnetic bracelet to heal their arthritis. It's not difficult. Why aren't you taking advantage of those poor desperate saps?

For those who think a skeptic new age store could work, think again. You can't mix your messages in that way without insulting half of your customer base. You could have a sort of planety-sciencey store that also stocks phrenology heads, but you can't have a new age store selling copies of Flim Flam. More to the point, why would you want to? The minute you sell a customer something which tells him the rest of your stock is BS, you've lost him. 'Skeptic' is not a big enough market for a store. 'New Age' is.

[Geek Goddess]

From a business standpoint, you need to be reminded that about 90% of small businesses fail, primarily due to insufficient research on the market, location, potential customers, and because they have insufficient capitalization and don't know how to manage cash flow. (My mom whines about 'all the good stores open on the other side of the city' without realizing that the successful business carefully choose their locations) The likely result of her efforts is going to be completely loss of your initial investment. A good business plan is not "I really enjoy these things so I am going to open up a store and sell them myself." Even people who buy into successful franchises, which supply training and advertising, often fail. How many other stores of this type are in your area? Perhaps she should get a job at one for a while. The place will likely have few employees, and she would have first-hand knowledge of what the client traffic is. My cousin owned a rather popular quilt-supply store, which was featured in national magazines and alway busy, and she had several paid employees to keep with with her customers, classes, and the other chores at the store, but the net profit from the business wasn't enough for her and her partner to both suppor themselves.

Second, I agree with some of the posters that by supplying more New Age crap to people only serves to increase the amount of crap in the world. Go into any 'health food' store and see that every bottle there carries a 'not approved by the FDA' or similar type warning that no trials or efficacy has been demonstrated, and people still spend millions. A sign disclaiming otherwise doesn't absolve you of perpetrating woo on silly people. Why not open up a Family Christian Bookstore? You can buy cute little pencils with WWJD. The difference between selling New Age crap and selling snake oil to cancer victims is just a matter of degree.

Third, as a fellow Texan, please don't open another one of these places. ....

[Mycroft]

The local drug-store where I buy my prescriptions also sells copper bracelets and shoe inserts with magnets in them.

Something to think about.

[Big Les]

Then why are you here instead of selling healing crystals in an ebay shop?

Seriously, there is money out there to be made. You can fool anyone into buying a magnetic bracelet to heal their arthritis. It's not difficult. Why aren't you taking advantage of those poor desperate saps?

For those who think a skeptic new age store could work, think again. You can't mix your messages in that way without insulting half of your customer base. You could have a sort of planety-sciencey store that also stocks phrenology heads, but you can't have a new age store selling copies of Flim Flam. More to the point, why would you want to? The minute you sell a customer something which tells him the rest of your stock is BS, you've lost him. 'Skeptic' is not a big enough market for a store. 'New Age' is.

Couldn't it work on a self-selection basis? I don't think the sceptical stuff would even appear on the average woo's radar, whilst the neutral party (I'm thinking tourists mainly, perhaps not so relevant here) including sceptics and cynics who have been dragged in by wooey loved ones, might be interested to see an alternative view being offered.

I'm probably just projecting my own wish to have something of substance to read and/or buy when dragged into fairy-tat-shops :)

[tkingdoll]

The local drug-store where I buy my prescriptions also sells copper bracelets and shoe inserts with magnets in them.

Something to think about.

Mine too, I've signed petitions about them often, amongst other actions. Selling Flim Flam in a new age store is not comparable.

[Myriad]

A few thoughts.

1. Review your marriage vows. They might provide the answer all by themselves.

2. Do you live in a place where an activist Christian majority might take exception to your "occult" store? If so, consider carefully how much official harassment and crap you're willing to put up with. How likely are you to discover one day that a set of zoning law updates or new inspection requirements have been passed in your town, which oddly enough affect only your business? If some teenager who once bought a tarot deck from your store offs himself, will your wife be blamed?

3. I like new age shops. They're fun to browse in, and many sell pretty rocks, fun gaudy jewelry, and nice handicrafts. Homeopathic remedies haven't been a big part of the stock of the ones I've been in, but it's been a while so perhaps that's changed. I can think of many other kinds of retailers that also trade largely in woo (unless you think that SUV really will make all the other cars on the road bow down to you). I'd rather sell a crystal that won't really unblock your fourth chakra, than a violin that won't really make little Timmy a virtuoso, a size 14 dress that won't really make your thighs look slim, or a lottery ticket that won't really make you a millionaire. (Especially the lottery ticket. Now there's an immoral business.) In a consumer culture, who's not selling woo?

Respectfully,
Myriad

[qayak]

Then why are you here instead of selling healing crystals in an ebay shop?

Seriously, there is money out there to be made. You can fool anyone into buying a magnetic bracelet to heal their arthritis. It's not difficult. Why aren't you taking advantage of those poor desperate saps?

For those who think a skeptic new age store could work, think again. You can't mix your messages in that way without insulting half of your customer base. You could have a sort of planety-sciencey store that also stocks phrenology heads, but you can't have a new age store selling copies of Flim Flam. More to the point, why would you want to? The minute you sell a customer something which tells him the rest of your stock is BS, you've lost him. 'Skeptic' is not a big enough market for a store. 'New Age' is.

Five blocks away from my house, at the bottom of the hill, there is a store that you say can't exist. Not only does it exist, it does very well.

It is quite simple. The owner doesn't make any claims about the any of the merchandise. She tells the customer what it is, where it is from, how it was formed and/or the artist that made it.

She doesn't debunk anything the customer believes. I have been in the store when New Agers are telling her about the power of crystals and how they have heard that the crystals from the area hers come from are especially powerful. She just smiles and says, "Really? I hadn't heard that before."

She sells books on animals, minerals, birds, fish, plants, etc. She sells incense from various places around the world. Local and exotic candles, soaps, etc. She also makes jewelry in the shop out of the materials she sells. Very pretty, top quality and reasonably priced.

In the back, her and her husband run some sort of geological business. She told me about it once but I don't recall exactly what they do, I think with mining. She had always wanted to have a store like this and so they opened it. She has hired a couple of people because the geological business is booming and she and her husband are travelling a lot. They are doing well.

Nowhere does she make a claim that is not true. Well, I suppose she could be lying about the artists from other countries. I have never checked them out.

The point is, there is a way to make it work and she has found it. The place is full of all different types including many, many new agers.

BUT, I also don't have an issue with someone operating a new age store. I browse through them when I am on vacation all the time. I often pick up small items as gifts for friends. Things like soaps, incense, candles, etc.

I don't personally have an interest in such a store which is why I would never open one. I also don't sell that stuff on the net because I sell used auto parts instead. Do you need a left headlight for a 2007 Nissan Maxima? I have one. I'll give it to you for 1/2 price. $750.00 ($1499.95 new)

There's better money in auto parts and I only have to sell a few things to make money . . . actually, I only have to sell one thing, I get the parts for free! How about a door for a Chevy Malibu? It's yours for $1200.00 including the glass, regulator and mirror. :D

[CFLarsen]

It seems incredible to me that skeptics would give advice how to run a superstition store successfully.

While well intended, remember what the advice is for: To open a store that supports superstition.

Do we give Sylvia Browne advice on how she will become more successful?

It's an inherently bad idea to open a store that promotes ignorance and dangerous beliefs.

[Big Les]

A fraudulent "psychic" actively preying on the bereaved is a rather different proposition than... a shop. I still wouldn't approve of my partner wanting to open one, but neither would I condemn her for it. She is not me.

I'm increasingly of the (reluctant) opinion that what you might call "ideological scepticism" isn't terribly applicable to the real world, and whilst we can keep it mind, it'll be better for all concerned if we take a leaf out of Richard Wiseman's book and "go with the flow" to an extent. In other words, we ought to moderate our response depending upon how potentially harmful an activity or belief is. Here, there is overlap - if the shop contained homoeopathic "remedies", Mr OP should be concerned, because anyone relying upon the placebo of alternative medicine may well not be receiving needed medical treatments. Even that is debatable (i.e. with appropriate "consult your GP" disclaimers), though I would always come down in opposition to CAM on principle. Psychic/tarot readings, again, I personally would challenge said partner over. Simply selling the books and accoutrements, particularly if no overt claims are made over their esoteric utility (!), I see much less of a problem with.

But the being part of the problem thing would always stick in my throat, because you just know that a significant proportion of your customers are either being encouraged in their irrational beliefs, or are even being started down a path of woo because of you(r wife). But you have to weigh all this up.

[Ladewig]

Idiot Tax being a phrase I use for some wilful and dumb act that you do that results in you losing money.

e.g. Putting all your ID documents, credit cards and cash in one purse and "resting" it on the next seat while travelling on public transport (true story from a colleague working in China). The, unsurprising, subsequent loss of said purse would be "Idiot Tax".


I can agree with you for the most part. I believe that your example does describe an idiot. But I also believe that many of the people who fall for Sylvia's nonsense are not idiots but rather are vulnerable people unsure of how to deal with their grief.

. . . . . .
Like other posters, I have purchased items in a new age store (mostly incense or small carved figures). While I could support someone who sold all those things, I would have to draw the line at supporting a relative who wanted to sell Sylvia's books. I, personally, consider that to be inexcusable.

[Ladewig]

It will be very small and will not be counted on to pay the bills. Just used for extra money.

It may end up being a way to get rid of extra money. Be sure to run the numbers carefully before starting up shop.

[Hardenbergh]

There's a new age store called "Enchantments" in Boothbay Harbor, Maine.

http://www.ourmaine.com/listing.php?c=18&l=21

http://www.enchantments-maine.com/index.html

Enchantments is a metaphysical gift shop in a little picturesque coastal town in Maine. Perched on a hill overlooking the crashing Boothbay Harbor ocean the feel inside the shop is timeless. New age and world beat music fills the air as you walk through the doors - two floors of items like angels, crystals, tapestries, beads, exotic clothing, jewelry - candles, incense, healing oils, metaphysical books, posters and music are just a few items that can be found. Sparkling fairy dust is scattered all over the floors, walls and ceilings and hanging beads line the doorways. If you are visiting Boothbay Harbor "Enchantments" is an experience you definitely must not miss.


Enchantments: Once you walk into this metaphysical gift shop in the little picturesque coastal town in Maine, it feels like you are walking into another world. New age music fills the atmosphere while various water sculptures gently bubble throughout the entire two story shop - fairy dust is scattered all over the floors and the walls. Enchantments rooms are filled with dreamy hanging and standing various size ornaments and sculptures like elves, angels, witches, demons, wizards, goddesses and woodland creatures. Healing insense and candle aromas takes you over as you look over the beautiful unique clothing and jewelry, unique pictures and wall hangings, new age books and music and metaphysical items of every kind. If you are ever in Boothbay Harbor, Maine - don't forget to check Enchantments out and let your spirit be enchanted for awhile.

http://local.yahoo.com/details?id=10441584

Just don't put any whirligigs on your lawn:

http://boothbayregister.maine.com/2005-01-20/remove_whirligigs.html

[tkingdoll]

Five blocks away from my house, at the bottom of the hill, there is a store that you say can't exist. Not only does it exist, it does very well.

It is quite simple. The owner doesn't make any claims about the any of the merchandise. She tells the customer what it is, where it is from, how it was formed and/or the artist that made it.

She doesn't debunk anything the customer believes. I have been in the store when New Agers are telling her about the power of crystals and how they have heard that the crystals from the area hers come from are especially powerful. She just smiles and says, "Really? I hadn't heard that before."

She sells books on animals, minerals, birds, fish, plants, etc. She sells incense from various places around the world. Local and exotic candles, soaps, etc. She also makes jewelry in the shop out of the materials she sells. Very pretty, top quality and reasonably priced.

In the back, her and her husband run some sort of geological business. She told me about it once but I don't recall exactly what they do, I think with mining. She had always wanted to have a store like this and so they opened it. She has hired a couple of people because the geological business is booming and she and her husband are travelling a lot. They are doing well.

Nowhere does she make a claim that is not true. Well, I suppose she could be lying about the artists from other countries. I have never checked them out.

The point is, there is a way to make it work and she has found it. The place is full of all different types including many, many new agers.

BUT, I also don't have an issue with someone operating a new age store. I browse through them when I am on vacation all the time. I often pick up small items as gifts for friends. Things like soaps, incense, candles, etc.

I don't personally have an interest in such a store which is why I would never open one. I also don't sell that stuff on the net because I sell used auto parts instead. Do you need a left headlight for a 2007 Nissan Maxima? I have one. I'll give it to you for 1/2 price. $750.00 ($1499.95 new)

There's better money in auto parts and I only have to sell a few things to make money . . . actually, I only have to sell one thing, I get the parts for free! How about a door for a Chevy Malibu? It's yours for $1200.00 including the glass, regulator and mirror. :D

No, the store that I said can't exist is one that sells newage crap alongside the books and videos that debunk the same crap. We're talking about selling James Randi's Flim Flam to a shop specifically designed to attract the very people who don't want to read it. People here were suggesting a SKEPTIC NEW AGE STORE. The store you describe is a new age store where the owner doesn't make any comment either way. If the owner said to the person talking about healing crystals "here, read this book, it'll prove that you're wrong", do you think that customer will come back?

You proved my point yourself when you said "She doesn't debunk anything the customer believes."

Of course she doesn't, she wouldn't have any customers left.

[skepticpagan]

OK. So maybe a lot more could be said.

tkingdoll: You can't mix your messages in that way without insulting half of your customer base ... you can't have a new age store selling copies of Flim Flam ... The minute you sell a customer something which tells him the rest of your stock is BS, you've lost him.

Why would a woo-believer even go near the skeptic section? And why would they purchase a skeptical book? Everywhere I go, I stay as far away from the religious section as I possibly can. I would think the same is true for woo. (Nice, huh? Accidental rhyme :rolleyes:). It's already been said that not everyone that goes in a new age shop is a woo-believer. If you're a skeptic and you're just there to pick up a figurine or some candles, hey, why not pick up a copy of Flim Flam or The God Delusion?

[skepticpagan]

Geek Goddess: ... small businesses fail ... insufficient capitalization ... cash flow.

Completely off point. That's not what this thread is about.

Geek Goddess: Why not open up a Family Christian Bookstore? You can buy cute little pencils with WWJD. The difference between selling New Age crap and selling snake oil to cancer victims is just a matter of degree.

Negative much? Thank you, Geek Goddess, for comparing the woman I love, and will support until my dying day, to a snake oil salesman. You're a scrooge and you obviously don't get the gist of this thread. Please go away.

[skepticpagan]

CFLarsen: It seems incredible to me that skeptics would give advice how to run a superstition store successfully. While well intended, remember what the advice is for: To open a store that supports superstition. Do we give Sylvia Browne advice on how she will become more successful? It's an inherently bad idea to open a store that promotes ignorance and dangerous beliefs.

They're not (or shouldn't be) giving advice on how to run a store successfully. The issue is how a skeptic husband deals with the fact that his spouse wants to open the shop. Finance and business strategies have no impact on the situation. I'm trying to figure out if and where I should draw the line and veto certain items, whether or not I can justify it in my mind, and, recently, whether or not a skeptical section is in order.

[tkingdoll]

OK. So maybe a lot more could be said.



Why would a woo-believer even go near the skeptic section? And why would they purchase a skeptical book? Everywhere I go, I stay as far away from the religious section as I possibly can. I would think the same is true for woo. (Nice, huh? Accidental rhyme :rolleyes:). It's already been said that not everyone that goes in a new age shop is a woo-believer. If you're a skeptic and you're just there to pick up a figurine or some candles, hey, why not pick up a copy of Flim Flam or The God Delusion?

If your store is huge, fine. You can assume that the majority of your customers (who will be believers) won't even see the books or browse in any other part of the store. How are you going to manage that, though? Have those books on a shelf entitled "Skepticism Shelf"? Is that shelf on it's own, or in the same place as the other bookshelves?

There are too few skeptics in the worlds to make a big enough market for a local store. Even online skeptic stores struggle. You will get maybe 1 Randi fan for every 5000 believers, I'd hazard. If that. The idea of selling books debunking the rest of the stock of the store is what we marketing types like to call "retail suicide". Local stores rely on passing trade and local people. How many skeptics groups are in a ten mile radius of your proposed location? You aren't going to get many candle-shopping skeptics stopping by, that's almost a certainty.

Are you familiar with the concept of market segmentation?

[skepticpagan]

Big Les: ... we ought to moderate our response depending upon how potentially harmful an activity or belief is. Here, there is overlap - if the shop contained homoeopathic "remedies", Mr OP should be concerned, because anyone relying upon the placebo of alternative medicine may well not be receiving needed medical treatments. Even that is debatable (i.e. with appropriate "consult your GP" disclaimers), though I would always come down in opposition to CAM on principle. Psychic/tarot readings, again, I personally would challenge said partner over.

I agree. Luckily, she sees the possible danger in psychic readings and homeopathy in place of traditional medical treatment.

[skepticpagan]

The idea of selling books debunking the rest of the stock of the store is what we marketing types like to call "retail suicide".OK. Let me get this straight. In her store, one can either shop for woo or skeptic stuff. And you say there is a possibility of losing her woo customers because of the skeptic stuff. Well, what about the big chain book stores? They have the same opposing sections. Do they lose customers in the same way? Or is it irrelevant because they have all the other sections?

Nevermind. It doesn't really matter. We're trying to find a middle ground, morally. I just didn't want to impede her business with my need to balance out the equation.

[Kaylee]

Geek Goddess: ... small businesses fail ... insufficient capitalization ... cash flow.

Completely off point. That's not what this thread is about.


Geek Goddess, between this thread and the one in community forum you seem to be the poster child this week for "no good deed goes unpunished!"

Skepticpagan, you are new to the forum, but let me assure you that GG is as smart as they come and personally I think you are lucky that she is sharing her knowledge and experience with you.

GG's comments are not a derail as I think you realize because you certainly didn't complain about Mycroft, Darth Rotor, Korenyx, etc's business advice.

Geek Goddess: Why not open up a Family Christian Bookstore? You can buy cute little pencils with WWJD. The difference between selling New Age crap and selling snake oil to cancer victims is just a matter of degree.

Negative much? Thank you, Geek Goddess, for comparing the woman I love, and will support until my dying day, to a snake oil salesman. You're a scrooge and you obviously don't get the gist of this thread. Please go away.

Some people call a spade a spade. You came to a skeptic's forum asking for advice about your wife opening up a new age store? What did you expect?

You said that your wife believes in the merchandise that she is selling so perhaps on that basis alone she isn't a snake oil salesman (assuming that snake oil salesman know that they are selling snake oil and not medicines), but frankly she is not doing anything admirable and its very possible that her future business actions will cause harm to people. That is the reality.

You yourself said in your OP that it's not right to perpetuate these false ideas and hopes.

In your OP you also said How do I live with this, or accept this? ... I'm not going to get divorced if she opens the store. I just don't know how to deal with it after that.

What your wife does is your wife's business. On your end I would just suggest not investing money, time or resources in a business that has the potential to cause people harm.

[tkingdoll]

OK. Let me get this straight. In her store, one can either shop for woo or skeptic stuff. And you say there is a possibility of losing her woo customers because of the skeptic stuff. Well, what about the big chain book stores? They have the same opposing sections. Do they lose customers in the same way? Or is it irrelevant because they have all the other sections?

If the vast majority of bookstore customers were of one type, with one particular mindset/philosophy, and they stocked mostly books which encouraged that mindset, then they would in fact risk offending their majority customer base if they also stocked books which debunked their dearly-held beliefs.

However, that is not the model on which big chain bookshops are based.

A better example would be a local Christian bookstore with an atheist section. You might find one, but it would be a rare occurrence because it is a direct criticism of the rest of the stock of the store, the beliefs of the owners, the staff and the customers. The store takes two risks 1) a customer is offended by the presence of the debunking material and does not return 2) a customer reads and is persuaded by the debunking material and no longer needs to purchase the main stock of the store. Either risk is avoidable. The skeptic niche is not profitable enough to be worth taking those risks for, in my opinion.

OK, you are going to think I'm slightly odd but I called my local Christian bookstore, Wesley Owen, and they don't stock The God Delusion. They do stock books refuting it though (e.g. The Dawkins Delusion). Some online Christian stores do stock it but that's a totally different proposition to physical stores with a local customer base.

[Hardenbergh]

I was browsing in Enchantments one day and I wandered upstairs just to see what was up there. A woman was sitting at a table in one corner of the room reading a book. She was reading tarot cards. However, she wasn't allowed to charge a specified amount for the service. Customers give her a donation of their choosing.

[Mycroft]

The difference between selling New Age crap and selling snake oil to cancer victims is just a matter of degree.

Maybe so, but the matter of degree is very important.

The reason selling snake oil is immoral is not the snake oil itself, but that the people who sell it tell people it will heal them when it wont. Morally, it's the equivalent of killing people for the price of your snake oil. If they just sold the snake oil without the claim then there is nothing immoral about it. Maybe some people have a use for snake oil.

People who buy pretty crystals, angel pins, candles and incense may believe they can help healing, but they also know full well that it's about the same as dropping coins in a wishing well or blowing out the candles on a birthday cake. That stuff doesn't stop people from seeing a doctor and getting real treatment. Truth is many people just like pretty crystals, angel pins, candles and incense and have no illusions about their mystical properties.

I'm curious about all those that have a moral problem with this. Would you also have a moral problem running a bookstore that sold books advocating different political opinions from yourself? If not, why is it different?

[skepticpagan]

Dear Kaylee,

Geek Goddess posted, I replied. It's got nothing to do with you. She's an adult. She doesn't need you to defend her.

Your opinion of Geek Goddess's intelligence means nothing to me. And the notion that someone is lucky to get another's opinion is utterly disgusting. None of us are better than the rest.

Sorry I'm being unfair to your buddy GG. At least Mycroft, Darth Rotor, and Korenyx's posts were not insulting. Unsolicited business advice is harmless (though rather useless in this situation), unless it's accompanied by an insult.


Some people call a spade a spade.
And some people call my wife a snake oil salesman. Bad idea.

You said that your wife believes in the merchandise that she is selling so perhaps on that basis alone she isn't a snake oil salesman ... but frankly she is not doing anything admirable.Charming. You've got tact to spare. Should I be thankful for those wise words?

You came to a skeptic's forum asking for advice about your wife opening up a new age store? What did you expect?I came here because I AM A SKEPTIC. And this creates a dilemma that I thought I might clear up with the helpful opinions of my fellow skeptics. I certainly did not expect insulting discourse.


I don't value or welcome any more of your ideas, comments, opinions, or insults.

Please just move on to some other thread. I beg you.

[skepticpagan]

Sorry about that, folks. I'm sure the rest of you understand why I had to nip Kaylee in the bud.

[skepticpagan]

Epiphany!

There may only be one way to solve this. I think it involves a shift in perspective. Of course I could just be fooling myself. Check it out...

The problem has been the idea of her store specializing in and, at first, carrying only woo products. It may be necessary to neutralize the purpose of the store. Maybe just start with the idea of a full fledged regular book store, complete with all the different sections. The skeptic and woo sections can simply be components in a larger, and possibly more sustainable entity. The size and offerings of each can be decided later. Is it really this simple? Did I just solve it? Or am I delusional?

Now... what is harmful and what is not? (Aside from psychics and homeopathy, as we've discussed already.) I've seen a few non-woo things mentioned here that raise questions. How does one decide what "harm" even is?

[Hardenbergh]

Buy a few whirligigs. At least it will help her shop get noticed. Maybe code enforcement officers are different there.

[Geek Goddess]

Completely off point. That's not what this thread is about.



Negative much? Thank you, Geek Goddess, for comparing the woman I love, and will support until my dying day, to a snake oil salesman. You're a scrooge and you obviously don't get the gist of this thread. Please go away.

I said New Age crap was equivalent to snake oil. Didn't say a bleeping word about your wife.

You're the one married to someone who either believes in woo, or will sell stuff to people who might actually believe that candles and crystals have power. If she wants to do this business, I was offering business advice.

And, for what it's worth, this is an open forum, so unless I violate the rules, I don't have to go away.

[Kaylee]

Dear Kaylee,

Geek Goddess posted, I replied. It's got nothing to do with you. She's an adult. She doesn't need you to defend her.

Your opinion of Geek Goddess's intelligence means nothing to me. And the notion that someone is lucky to get another's opinion is utterly disgusting. None of us are better than the rest.

Sorry I'm being unfair to your buddy GG. At least Mycroft, Darth Rotor, and Korenyx's posts were not insulting. Unsolicited business advice is harmless (though rather useless in this situation), unless it's accompanied by an insult.


And some people call my wife a snake oil salesman. Bad idea.

Charming. You've got tact to spare. Should I be thankful for those wise words?

I came here because I AM A SKEPTIC. And this creates a dilemma that I thought I might clear up with the helpful opinions of my fellow skeptics. I certainly did not expect insulting discourse.


I don't value or welcome any more of your ideas, comments, opinions, or insults.

Please just move on to some other thread. I beg you.

That is not why I posted. This is a public thread, not a private e-mail box. I don’t believe that there is any justification for selling products that promote superstition and ignorance. I also dislike unjustified rudeness. Sometimes ignoring it is the same as endorsing it. I won't do that.

Perhaps you are new to the concept of forums. You don’t get to decide who posts. But feel free to put me on your ignore list.

[qayak]

No, the store that I said can't exist is one that sells newage crap alongside the books and videos that debunk the same crap. We're talking about selling James Randi's Flim Flam to a shop specifically designed to attract the very people who don't want to read it. People here were suggesting a SKEPTIC NEW AGE STORE. The store you describe is a new age store where the owner doesn't make any comment either way. If the owner said to the person talking about healing crystals "here, read this book, it'll prove that you're wrong", do you think that customer will come back?

Well, I am the one who brought up the Skeptic New Age store and what I said was that one would tell the truth about where the stuff came from, not that one had to crush the silly ideas that some people have.

You proved my point yourself when you said "She doesn't debunk anything the customer believes."

She doesn't. For instance, she tells them what the crystal is, how it was formed and where in the world it came from. If they want to believe the crystals allow them to see the future, that's their perogative.

Of course she doesn't, she wouldn't have any customers left.

Perhaps but it would mostly be a waste of her time, wouldn't it. Those people are not going to be swayed by some non-believer.

It is the difference between a bookstore owner who refuses to sell bibles and lectures every customer who asks for one on the absurdity of their beliefs and one who simply stocks the bible in the religions or fiction section.

[CFLarsen]

I said New Age crap was equivalent to snake oil. Didn't say a bleeping word about your wife.

If A is equivalent to snake oil, then you are also saying that selling A is equivalent to selling snake oil.

You're the one married to someone who either believes in woo, or will sell stuff to people who might actually believe that candles and crystals have power. If she wants to do this business, I was offering business advice.

Why would you, as a skeptic, offer business advice to someone selling something you know is snake oil?

[skepticpagan]

I said New Age crap was equivalent to snake oil. Didn't say a bleeping word about your wife.

Go buy a book on Logic and one on Grammar. Then come back and read your post again.

Kaylee wrote: I also dislike unjustified rudeness.

Read her post again. It was condescending and insulting. It didn't have to be.


I asked you both to go away, and for good reason. You two are the broccoli in what WAS our delicious chocolate sundae of discourse. But you're absolutely right, I can't make you leave. So you win. You two stick around and run the thread if it floats your boat. I'll leave.

Thanks a million, everyone else. I love you all. Well, not like THAT. :blush: But you know what I mean.

Seacrest out!!!!!

[Geek Goddess]

If A is equivalent to snake oil, then you are also saying that selling A is equivalent to selling snake oil.

Perhaps. I did not mean to indicate that his wife was deliberately trying to deceive people for the sake of profit, which I believe 'snake oil salesmen' do. She might really believe that crystals and dream catchers and special candles *do* help people. That books on angels and alternative therapies and other woo work. However, some posts indicate that perhaps that perhaps she just liked the way these things look.

Why would you, as a skeptic, offer business advice to someone selling something you know is snake oil? Separately, if she wants to start a store to sell baubles that are pretty, even if I would not personally buy anything there, doesn't mean that I would not want people in small business ventures to succeed. There is a limited market for those sorts of things. A good location and business plan would be necessary for a successful business venture. I've not started any type of retail business, myself, but I have several close family members who have started both retail shops and restaurants , and know first-hand how horribly difficult it is to correctly determine capital requirements, secure a proper line of credit, and manage cash flow. If people don't realize they may operate in the red for several months (if not longer), they end up losing their capital and tapping out their private resources very quickly.

However Skepticpagan is accusing me of being insulting and having my "buddies" stand up for me (people I've never met and never corresponded with privately) and asking people who disagree with him to 'go away.' Perhaps, in an effort to keep people from promoting woo, I should encourage her to run out and open a store right away, with no business consideration, so that they will fail and lose their investment? While I would prefer that no one supply more delusional people with their fixes, encouraging someone to do something that might be financial unsound for them would be cruel and insulting and rude.

I asked you both to go away, and for good reason. You two are the broccoli in what WAS our delicious chocolate sundae of discourse. But you're absolutely right, I can't make you leave. So you win. You two stick around and run the thread if it floats your boat. I'll leave.

Thanks a million, everyone else. I love you all. Well, not like THAT. But you know what I mean.

People disagree with you, so you run away? How skeptical is that?

[Kaylee]

However Skepticpagan is accusing me of being insulting and having my "buddies" stand up for me (people I've never met and never corresponded with privately)

I have to admit I found that amusing. I guess he's not psychic. :rolleyes:

I found his priorities disturbing. Not rubberstamping what he wants to do is rude, and helping his wife to part people from their money by knowingly * selling them products that won't do what they believe they will do is not. :rolleyes:

Well to each their own.


* He indicated that his wife does not know this, but he does.

[karmicserenade]

I have shopped at 'New age' stores, and honestly I don't feel like an idiot ;) I may not believe in everything they say a crystal does, but dang they sure are pretty :P Also I have to admit, I love a lot of the stuff they sell :)

There is nothing wrong with selling goods to a willing consumer. Supply and demand! Also, the things some of the products say they do...well, often it is a matter of belief. I hope she does not sell the goggles that show you an aura lol, that would be bad. Seriously though, much of the goods sold are simply for relaxation purposes. How is that wrong? How is that cheating a person?? If someone finds joy in aromatherapy, what is the harm??

In a society full of negativity, I see no harm in a positive place to go and spend some coinage! Trust me you will make a bundle...

[karmicserenade]

I must also add, that skepticpagan did not say she was going to sell things to customers that were to be in place of say medical care....he just said new age :P Now if we were to get into that end of things..well I may have to disagree with the whole idea...

[Kaylee]

But new age does include the concept of crystal healing.

I don’t have a problem with someone selling crystals. *

I do have a problem with someone selling crystals AND cynically promoting crystal healing to help their sales, when they know that there is no evidence to prove that it works.

Not everyone has received a good education, or has common sense or even enough intelligence to safely navigate through life. For someone to take advantage of these type of people and sell them crystals along with a sales pitch (that one knows is pure bullsh*t) that it can help them heal their diabetic or cholesterol problem is just plain wrong and IMHO evil.




*I even have a few quartz rocks myself. I have them because they're my souvenirs from a great vacation that I took years ago out west and I think the way their “teeth” interlock is absolutely fascinating. My cats seem to like them even better than I do and are constantly rubbing their chins against the “teeth”.

[karmicserenade]

I think crystals are neat, I may start a new thread on crystal skulls ;) if it has not been discussed already that is lol, this forum is huuuuge!!

I don't know, there are so many claims for crystals healing...soo many...maybe it is just mind over matter??? Dunno', but it is interesting.