An Honest Anti-War Rally

[corplinx]

After seeing some of the signs and speeches at these anti-war rallies, I can't help but think they would get more headway if they were just more frank.

Signs like "No War for Oil" don't affect me in the least. Or "Down with Imperialism".

Now here is my idea of an honest anti-war rally:


In the crowd you see signs like:
"Support Hamas, Leave Saddam Be"
"I'm still mad Gore lost"
"Bus Bombings Build Character"
"I don't care if non-whites die"
"They aren't our POWs"
"Give Peace a Chance, a 15th Chance"

The main speech at the rally uses american staples of political campaigning like:
"Do you think the middle east is better off than it was 12 years ago? If so, encourage the UN to vote for.... four more years, four more years!"

Not to mention a woodstock reference to get the baby boomers interested:
"Frankly, we're scared ********."

And of course, total frankness:
"We're all mad Bush won, even though he didn't win. Anyway, on saturday night live and the daily show, they said this was all about oil."

Then the token anti-Israel statements:
"Who are we to remove from power one of the main sources of guns and money to palestinian "freedom fighters"."


Anyway, I would have a lot more respect for these nonsensical anti-war rallies if they were at least frank. Well, No I Wouldn't. Where is the civil disobedience? Where were protestors blocking runways that were runnign charters of soldiers to the mideast?

Its a lot easier to be a face in the crowd at a rally than it is to sit in a jail cell for your beliefs.

[shecky]

How many straw men can one create in a single post?

[corplinx]

Count them and see. The use of a straw man doesn't mean it doesn't have a point.

[crackmonkey]

A strawman agrument is one in which an opponent's position is misstated and then debunked. In this case, corplinx isn't misstating the 'anti-war' position at all. He doesn't even go into it... his post is a satirical look at the underlying motives, assumptions, and hypocrisy of the protesters.
No strawmen here.

[corplinx]

Yes, its just satire. No reason to take it very seriously. There are of course people with deep beliefs about violence, interventionism, and such whom I respect.

[shecky]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
A strawman agrument is one in which an opponent's position is misstated and then debunked. In this case, corplinx isn't misstating the 'anti-war' position at all. He doesn't even go into it... his post is a satirical look at the underlying motives, assumptions, and hypocrisy of the protesters.
No strawmen here.

Every one of those pseudo slogans is a mis-statement. It's a definition of the anti war movement according to corplinx. True, straw men can make a point. But often at the expense of reason. If I were to make a nasty joke about the racist underpinnings of the Republican party here, I suspect I'd draw the ire of the likes of corplinx. And rightly so. Painting such a organization with such a broad brush would clearly be unfair, even if there were a few rogues who truly were racist.

I'm aware the slogans were most likely tounge-in-cheek. At what point would you earn the respect of a anti war protester? I'm not sure which anti-war rallies you attended, I'm wondering how many anti-war protesters you've determined to be worthy of your respect. Must such a protester sit in jail to earn your respect? Risk life and limb? How about a armchair protester whose reasoning is just as strong? What makes one protester more worthy than another?

[crackmonkey]

You're right, it's the definition according to corplinx... and it is not a strawman argument.
There is a difference between what someone asserts is the true motives of an opponent, and misstating the opponent's arguments.

[Earthborn]

These are actually pretty good:
"I'm still mad Gore lost"
"Give Peace a Chance, a 15th Chance"

"They aren't our PWOs"Personalwirtschaft und Organisation?
Philatelic Webmasters Organization?
Pimp World Order?
Private Wetterwarte Oberschwaben?
Pro Wrestling Organisation?

Just some of the things I was able to Google up. Couldn't find anything that made sense though. And the search feature on the board has a 4 letter minimum so I can't look how anyone had used it in the past.
Care to explain what the abbreviation stands for?

(Since the forum recognizes HTML, maybe you should use the 'acronym' tag for this kind of thing.)

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by shecky
How many straw men can one create in a single post?

I suggest your pleading of ' Straw Man ' is a Straw Man..


corplinx Clearly stated:

" Now here is my idea of an honest anti-war rally .. "
( funny stuff by the way, IMO )

Gee, his own idea. A foreign concept to some..


Not freshly home from the anti-war rally by any chance?

P.S.
At what point would you earn the respect of a anti war protester?

Corplinx can correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't gather this was his goal..:)

[subgenius]

An honest pro-war rally (at least the antis get off their lazy asses):

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by subgenius
An honest pro-war rally (at least the antis get off their lazy asses):

Hell, if you don't protest a war, most people will assume you're for it..:D

Besides, this picture is unfair. It was clearly made on Sunday morning, before noon..

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Earthborn
Personalwirtschaft und Organisation?
Philatelic Webmasters Organization?
Pimp World Order?
Private Wetterwarte Oberschwaben?
Pro Wrestling Organisation?

Just some of the things I was able to Google up. Couldn't find anything that made sense though.

Sorry, I meant POW, prisoner of war.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by subgenius
An honest pro-war rally (at least the antis get off their lazy asses):

A pro-war rally to me is scary. I think most people are basically pacifists. Nobody actually wants people dieing. Nobody wants the horrors of war. Most of us usually though see it as a way of reaching a greater good or more lasting peace. I may support military action against Iraq, but you wouldn't catch me at a "pro-war" rally. Instead you would most likely see me reflecting over a glass of something strong and wondering why the hell things are the way they are.

Countries that have large pro-war rallies tend to be the "bad" guys.

[Advocate]

Originally posted by corplinx


A pro-war rally to me is scary. I think most people are basically pacifists. Nobody actually wants people dieing. Nobody wants the horrors of war. Most of us usually though see it as a way of reaching a greater good or more lasting peace. I may support military action against Iraq, but you wouldn't catch me at a "pro-war" rally. Instead you would most likely see me reflecting over a glass of something strong and wondering why the hell things are the way they are.

Countries that have large pro-war rallies tend to be the "bad" guys.

Well I wouldn't say most people are pacifists but I don't think too many are actively pro-war because we would all (or almost all) prefer to see this ended without a war. But we are defintely not all for "peace at any price". I think you will likely see pro-war rallies if the anti-war protests get large enough. What is the point of a pro-war rally except to say the anti-war people are wrong, and unless they are loud enough to make a pro-war demonstration necessary, why bother having one?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by subgenius
An honest pro-war rally (at least the antis get off their lazy asses):

Why should I rally? I'm getting what I want.

(I also don't rally in opposition to the USSR)

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Advocate


Well I wouldn't say most people are pacifists but I don't think too many are actively pro-war because we would all (or almost all) prefer to see this ended without a war. But we are defintely not all for "peace at any price". I think you will likely see pro-war rallies if the anti-war protests get large enough. What is the point of a pro-war rally except to say the anti-war people are wrong, and unless they are loud enough to make a pro-war demonstration necessary, why bother having one?

I feel much the same.

[subgenius]

Baaa, baaa....

[The Don]

Originally posted by corplinx

Now here is my idea of an honest anti-war rally:


In the crowd you see signs like:
"Support Hamas, Leave Saddam Be"
"I'm still mad Gore lost"
"Bus Bombings Build Character"
"I don't care if non-whites die"
"They aren't our POWs"
"Give Peace a Chance, a 15th Chance"



How about these for a "pro-war rally"

"I don't care about U.S. Servicemen's lives, a disproportionate number of the casulaties will be black anyway"
"Iraqi lives are worhless"
"Honk if you support loose confederations of warlords so long as they're Pro-U.S."
"Support the U.S. we're always right"
"Korea and Vietnam never happened"
"I'm history intolerant"

[iain]

Originally posted by The Don


How about these for a "pro-war rally"

"I don't care about U.S. Servicemen's lives, a disproportionate number of the casulaties will be black anyway"
"Iraqi lives are worhless"
"Honk if you support loose confederations of warlords so long as they're Pro-U.S."
"Support the U.S. we're always right"
"Korea and Vietnam never happened"
"I'm history intolerant"

Or

"We want the arabs to be even more anti-Western."
"Get those WMDs out of Iraq and to the terrorists"
"It doesn't matter if it goes wrong, it won't be our problem."

[Shane Costello]

http://irishwar.org

Among the luminaries in the Irish anti-war movement are Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. You know, mouthpieces for a terrorist murder gang, or in the case of McGuinness a veteran of the terrorist campaign. For some reason the Irish peaceniks see no contradiction at all in having these people at the helm of a peace movement.

So I suppose an honest Irish peace rally will look something like this:

"Blowing children to bits is not murder!"

"Shooting drug dealers in Ireland while colluding with drug producers in Colombia isn't hypocritical"

"Protestant fundamentalism bad. Muslim fundamentalism good"

[Drooper]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
http://irishwar.org

Among the luminaries in the Irish anti-war movement are Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. You know, mouthpieces for a terrorist murder gang, or in the case of McGuinness a veteran of the terrorist campaign. For some reason the Irish peaceniks see no contradiction at all in having these people at the helm of a peace movement.

So I suppose an honest Irish peace rally will look something like this:

"Blowing children to bits is not murder!"

"Shooting drug dealers in Ireland while colluding with drug producers in Colombia isn't hypocritical"

"Protestant fundamentalism bad. Muslim fundamentalism good"

Or perhaps: "They only want to kill other people, so they're OK by us."

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
http://irishwar.org

Among the luminaries in the Irish anti-war movement are Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. You know, mouthpieces for a terrorist murder gang, or in the case of McGuinness a veteran of the terrorist campaign. For some reason the Irish peaceniks see no contradiction at all in having these people at the helm of a peace movement.

So I suppose an honest Irish peace rally will look something like this:

"Blowing children to bits is not murder!"

"Shooting drug dealers in Ireland while colluding with drug producers in Colombia isn't hypocritical"

"Protestant fundamentalism bad. Muslim fundamentalism good"

it is a common tactic of those wanting respectability to associate themselves with something that they believe will give themselves credibility. it could also be that they believe in the cause. either way, it has nothing to do with the pro/anti ware arguments of this issue.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by shecky
How many straw men can one create in a single post?

You might think it is bit strong, but I think it is a good piece of satire.

I might have been tempted to attend a protest march until I saw some of the promotional posters.

What got me was this one:

NO WAR IN IRAQ
ISRAEL OUT OF PALESTINE

I dont't want my presence to be a validation of some of the other agendas that will be pushed at this rally tomorrow.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Drooper


You might think it is bit strong, but I think it is a good piece of satire.

I might have been tempted to attend a protest march until I saw some of the promotional posters.

What got me was this one:

NO WAR IN IRAQ
ISRAEL OUT OF PALESTINE

I dont't want my presence to be a validation of some of the other agendas that will be pushed at this rally tomorrow.

you get them turning up. most people don't have those posters. I was at a rally today, and yes, the lefty nutters were there, but so were over a hundred thousand other people. you can always make your own sign to take along.

[Drooper]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


you get them turning up. most people don't have those posters. I was at a rally today, and yes, the lefty nutters were there, but so were over a hundred thousand other people. you can always make your own sign to take along.

Perhaps that's where you and I differ.

I don't want to give credability to a cause, or group that I vehemently disagree with. That is why I will never be a politician I suppose. ;)

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by a_u_p:
it is a common tactic of those wanting respectability to associate themselves with something that they believe will give themselves credibility. it could also be that they believe in the cause. either way, it has nothing to do with the pro/anti ware arguments of this issue.

It has everything to do with the motives and beliefs of the anti-war movement. Ostensibly they decry the use of military force in the Middle East, yet seem comfortable with the support of those responsible for terrorist atrocities at home. They see no contradiction in opposing the deaths of children in Iraq, and condoning the deaths of children in the UK. The bottom line is that anyone is acceptable, so long as they spout the usual anti-American guff.