Flight 93

[buka001]

Something that I have been wondering about. Have any troofers ever provided any claims as to what altitude Flight 93 was flying, when it was allegedly engaged?

This has large bearings on what was then observed near Shanksville.

If it was at a low altitude, why did they wait to engage it at a low altitude. Why not at 37000ft etc? So many logical questions would arise from that point. Which I doubt any real answers could be provided.

If no one has, surely that indicates just how flawed their theory is?

[Bell]

By 'allegedly engaged' I assume you mean the socalled shooting down? Not the passengers engaging the terrorists?

[buka001]

Yes, sorry to clarify. At what altitude was it allegedly shot down by a missile from a USAF fighter?

[Gravy]

I haven't seen them claim anything specific about that. If they did, they'd have to fit each specific claim to the known evidence: the FDR, CVR, and radar data, the passenger calls, the witnesses on the ground, the FBI's inspection of the wreckage, the lack of military aircraft in the area, etc.

That's not going to happen. The delusionites don't want their fantasies ruined in a confrontation with facts. However, I don't know how many people subscribe to the flight 93 shootdown theory. I rarely see it discussed anymore except by a few hardcore nuts.

[buka001]

Ok. Looking through LCF, I see they are debating whether A-10's bombed the place to make the crater and some witness saw some top secret UAV. Really weak stuff.

[ref]

This study (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc04.pdf) by the NTSB shows, that flight 93 flew at heights below 12000ft in the last 10 minutes of its flying time.

It is also claimed, that the call by Ed Felt, where he described seeing some white smoke, is identification of a shot plane. Felt made the call at 9:58. At that time the plane was at 5000ft. What makes this claim very suspicious, though, is the fact that a couple of minutes later the plane once again climbed to 10000ft, before it crashed. Would a plane that was shot down climb another 5000ft for a few minutes after being shot, before crashing?

Also, if the plane was already shot at 9:58, it was still 5 minutes away from the crash scene. Even at the very low speed of 300mph a plane would fly a distance of 5 miles in one minute. In 5 minutes the distance would be 40 miles. And that is at the speed of 300mph. The plane was moving faster than that. If it was shot already at 9:58, we would see debris maybe tens of miles away from the scene, not just a few miles.

I would say the shoot down claim is pretty well debunked.

[DGM]

Ok. Looking through LCF, I see they are debating whether A-10's bombed the place to make the crater and some witness saw some top secret UAV. Really weak stuff.
Very weak! A-10's are fairly slow, unique looking and kind of loud.

[buka001]

Yeah I see the shift in focus is now with a "no plane theory", where A-10s or some secret UCAV was used to make the crater. All centred on an eye witness account from Susan McElwain.

[ref]

Yeah I see the shift in focus is now with a "no plane theory", where A-10s or some secret UCAV was used to make the crater. All centred on an eye witness account from Susan McElwain.

Let me guess. Terrorcell is the one promoting this theory.

[buka001]

You are correct!

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Ok. Looking through LCF, I see they are debating whether A-10's bombed the place to make the crater and some witness saw some top secret UAV. Really weak stuff.

A-10s? Well those are quite stealthy. There's no way townsfolk for miles could have seen or heard those slow moving, loud beasts... nor explosions *after* the crash. Stealthy A10s. Stealthy Bombs. What will truthers say next?

Also I don't think UAVs were armed until after the Iraq war started... or 2002. Nor do I think any UAVs were ready to be deployed in or around Shanksville PA. Just makes no sense. They were just barely out of the experimental phase in 2001.

[Disbelief]

A-10s? Well those are quite stealthy. There's no way townsfolk for miles could have seen or heard those slow moving, loud beasts... nor explosions *after* the crash. Stealthy A10s. Stealthy Bombs. What will truthers say next?

Also I don't think UAVs were armed until after the Iraq war started... or 2002. Nor do I think any UAVs were ready to be deployed in or around Shanksville PA. Just makes no sense. They were just barely out of the experimental phase in 2001.

Why would you use a tank-killer to bomb the ground anyway? So many planes to choose from and they pick one of the most illogical to support their theory.

[Dave Rogers]

A-10s? Well those are quite stealthy. There's no way townsfolk for miles could have seen or heard those slow moving, loud beasts... nor explosions *after* the crash. Stealthy A10s.

Ah, A10's. I remember back in the late 80's, when East Anglia was still the USAF's unsinkable aircraft carrier, those things used to fly in finger-four formations over the place I worked most mornings. It wasn't a sound you could miss.

Dave

[Cheap Shot]

Very weak! A-10's are fairly slow, unique looking and kind of loud.

Actually for a fighter aircraft they are actually kind of quiet, but the turbo fan noise they make is pretty much unmistakeable. Dropping bombs as part of a coverup is a pretty far reach. If the USAF was looking to intercept UAL93 they wouldn't have sent A-10s to do the job.

[buka001]

Exactly the point I'm making on LCF. Why use a UAV or A-10 flying at 40ft to bomb the place for all the world to see, when they can use a B-2 flying at 30,000ft that is invisible to radar and would not have been seen or heard by anyone, to bomb the site?

[Unfit4Command]

This is what I don't understand. Why would the government bomb a fake crash site rather than crashing the plane there itself? Why go through the trouble?

[Gravy]

This study (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc04.pdf) by the NTSB shows, that flight 93 flew at heights below 12000ft in the last 10 minutes of its flying time.

It is also claimed, that the call by Ed Felt, where he described seeing some white smoke, is identification of a shot plane. Felt made the call at 9:58. At that time the plane was at 5000ft. What makes this claim very suspicious, though, is the fact that a couple of minutes later the plane once again climbed to 10000ft, before it crashed. Would a plane that was shot down climb another 5000ft for a few minutes after being shot, before crashing?By the way, the operator who spoke to Ed Felt said he did not mention seeing smoke.

[ref]

By the way, the operator who spoke to Ed Felt said he did not mention seeing smoke.

Ok, my mistake. I wonder where this claim originated from, since it's being used.

[Reheat]

Yea, one theory has the UAV below the power lines at about 20' AGL. No one at LCF has bothered to ask how it could avoid the power lines, let alone terrain. Also, I've seen no one explain it's purpose. It's left to the imagination whether it was to shoot down UA93 or to create the "crater".

BTW, all UAV's are designed to fly at high altitude period. They have no low altitude capability even today.

UAV's were still in the development stage in 2001 and they were not yet armed. It is a correct statement to state that they were armed much later for the first time later during the war in Afghanistan.

Someone at LCF questioned the origin of the supposed A-10 as there are no bases within flying range of the Shanksville site. No problem, someone explained, they just used a road somewhere near Camp David. Yea, as if no one would have noticed!

I wonder what kind of bomb was use? One that produced a crater in the shape of an aircraft? I've yet to see anyone ask that question.

It continues to amaze me that the troofers make everything enormously more complicated than necessary. Why don't they just accept that the aircraft over that area was the known Falcon 20 and the witness was mistaken due to unfamiliarity with aircraft, viewing perspective, and leading suggestions by all of the "expert investigators". It boggles the mind and the madness continues.

[Reheat]

Why use a UAV or A-10 flying at 40ft to bomb the place for all the world to see, when they can use a B-2 flying at 30,000ft that is invisible to radar and would not have been seen or heard by anyone, to bomb the site?

A bomb that produces a crater in the shape of an aircraft? The NWO has amazing technology. I wonder why they don't share it?

[GT/CS]

.

It continues to amaze me that the troofers make everything enormously more complicated than necessary. Why don't they just accept that the aircraft over that area was the known Falcon 20 and the witness was mistaken due to unfamiliarity with aircraft, viewing perspective, and leading suggestions by all of the "expert investigators". It boggles the mind and the madness continues.

There are obviously 3 different truther camps who post here. The first is made up of people with youthful imagination. Teens just are not able to think things through.

Another group thinks it's either fun or funny to play the troll roll and see how much they can mess with the skeptics.

I won't comment on the 3rd camp since it's just to sad to think about.

[Disbelief]

Someone at LCF questioned the origin of the supposed A-10 as there are no bases within flying range of the Shanksville site. No problem, someone explained, they just used a road somewhere near Camp David. Yea, as if no one would have noticed!



There is a base that is within flying distance, along with a second that may be. The 111th Fighter Wing is in Willow Grove, PA and is an Air Reserve Base. Pope AFB, NC may be within flying distance, but I am not positive about that one and they house the 74th (I believe). I must be better at this than the average CTist, because that was pretty easy to find along with another explanation. If this was planned ahead of time, they would have flown the plane to say Dover a few days in advance with the excuse they are doing a TDY assignment.

[Corsair 115]

Exactly the point I'm making on LCF. Why use a UAV or A-10 flying at 40ft to bomb the place for all the world to see, when they can use a B-2 flying at 30,000ft that is invisible to radar and would not have been seen or heard by anyone, to bomb the site?My first guess would be because most of them don't know what the difference is between an A-10, B-2, Global Hawk, etc. If I wasn't something of an aviation buff I probably wouldn't know the difference either (though it's not hard to find out if one wants to).

[ElMondoHummus]

Why would you use a tank-killer to bomb the ground anyway? So many planes to choose from and they pick one of the most illogical to support their theory.


Not to mention one of the most unique looking aircraft (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a-10-19990422-f-7910d-517.jpg) in the inventory. This is a case of people simply retailing terminology in order to sound impressive.

[Disbelief]

Not to mention one of the most unique looking aircraft (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a-10-19990422-f-7910d-517.jpg) in the inventory. This is a case of people simply retailing terminology in order to sound impressive.

I agree. I saw plenty of A-10s take off from Pope and they were very distinct. Reminds me of Lyte and his fixation with a C-130.

[CptColumbo]

Not to mention one of the most unique looking aircraft (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/a-10-19990422-f-7910d-517.jpg) in the inventory. This is a case of people simply retailing terminology in order to sound impressive.
Powerglide shot down United 93? I thought the Autobots were good guys.:)

Sorry, Powerglide is the first thing I think of when I see an A-10.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

I'd imagine Shanksville residents would remember seeing this...

F6itQfUwF1o

A high school friend of mine flew one back in the first gulf war.

[Reheat]

There is a base that is within flying distance, along with a second that may be. The 111th Fighter Wing is in Willow Grove, PA and is an Air Reserve Base.

You're right, I forgot about Willow Grove. Perfect, now someone who advocates this should submit a FOIA requesting a list of their munitions inventory to find that bomb which produces an aircraft like crater. Good Luck with that one.

Pope AFB, NC may be within flying distance, but I am not positive about that one and they house the 74th (I believe).

That would be a stretch, but don't forget an A-10 can refuel. Those who advocate this should check all of the Tanker schedules to determine which unit refueled it.

Nah, discount Dover, that's just too simple, not to mention that an A-10 at Dover would arouse EVERYONE'S suspicions. :rolleyes:

[Disbelief]

You're right, I forgot about Willow Grove. Perfect, now someone who advocates this should submit a FOIA requesting a list of their munitions inventory to find that bomb which produces an aircraft like crater. Good Luck with that one.



That would involve doing something besides railing against the man.


That would be a stretch, but don't forget an A-10 can refuel. Those who advocate this should check all of the Tanker schedules to determine which unit refueled it.

Nah, discount Dover, that's just too simple, not to mention that an A-10 at Dover would arouse EVERYONE'S suspicions. :rolleyes:

That is why I said that you could cover it as TDY or even as an aircraft from Pope that was having mechanical problems and needed to land for a few days. We had virtually every type of plane land at Pope, including a Stealth that was having mech. problems. It was towed immediately into a hangar with 24 hour armed guards at every entrance.

[Boone 870]

The A-10 story comes from truthers trying to fit an aircraft into Susan McElwain's eyewitness account.

[JamesB]

My first guess would be because most of them don't know what the difference is between an A-10, B-2, Global Hawk, etc. If I wasn't something of an aviation buff I probably wouldn't know the difference either (though it's not hard to find out if one wants to).

Well these are the same people who think a Predator might have been used to hit the Pentagon. Other than being about 20 feet long, having a single propeller in the back, and a top speed of about 80 MPH, it looks just like a 757! :D

[njslim]

Used to see them all the time flying around eastern PA when lived near
Harrisburg. Would be doing maneuvers at FT Indiantown east of Harrisburg
Also IIRC the 175 FW ANG unit in Maryland used to fly them. Don't know if
still do.

[Cheap Shot]

Maryland still has the A-10's, I believe Willow Grove is losing there’s under the BRAC, Barnes, at Westfield MA, just lost all of theirs, Bradley CT, is losing there’s and they are already being replaced with C21's Lear Jets. Syracuse is losing their F-16's in 2009 I believe and they are getting the armed Predators I believe MQ21's?? Maryland is going to keep them, everyone else loses them, and I believe the Army may actually pick some up, they have always wanted them.

Still can't believe why anyone would use an A-10 to cover up anything. Just like some of the other stories that all of the four hijacked aircraft were UAV's, when why would you waste such a technological good aircraft when you have insane extremist who would do it with no questions asked.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

This is what I don't understand. Why would the government bomb a fake crash site rather than crashing the plane there itself? Why go through the trouble?


The more complicated the alleged conspiracy, the smarter the proponent feels for having "figured it out", even if they can't explain the actual details.

[OldTigerCub]

I got in late and just found this thread. Anyone who has ever been to Indian Lake (Shanksville area) and knows the lay of the land would know in an instant that troothers who spew bull(rule 10) have never been there.
I sorta take the Flight 93 episode personally, since the area it crashed in was my "playground" years ago. I have friends who live in the area and I learned how to skydive at the Indian Lake airport (the takeoff path from IL airport went right over the mine, which was still active when I was jumping).
I also have friends who were there shortly after the crash (an aquaintence in the FBI and a friend who trains cadaver dogs).
The scene they both described was of the most horrific thing they had ever seen.
These are people I know and believe. People I have worked with to help solve bank robberies and find missing children.
It just infuriates me to no end to hear trooters blab on about "they know what happenned to Flight 93".
BS....:mad:
Sorry....just had to vent little...
But....I'm ok now...:D ....
Thanks to all of you who do the endless factfinding and put up the sound arguments that shine the light of reason on the trooth loons, and show them for what they really are!
That said, I need a beer!:cool:

[Alareth]

Ah, A10's. I remember back in the late 80's, when East Anglia was still the USAF's unsinkable aircraft carrier, those things used to fly in finger-four formations over the place I worked most mornings. It wasn't a sound you could miss.

Dave


My last duty station in the Navy was NAS Jacksonville Det Astor, aka: The Pinecastle Bombing Range. It was the only place on the east coast certified for drops of live ordinance. 500lb bombs are quite noisy by the way ...

Up until a flight of A-10's started a 500 acre fire one weekend, they were a common site and you knew just by the sound that they were on the range and it wasn't the normal F-18 traffic.

[OldTigerCub]

Anyway...back on topic...On the many weekends I hung out at Indian Lake, air traffic was almost unknown. The approach path to Johnstown airport prohibits traffic at low altitudes (below 12000ft) unless they are on approach or departure (with the exception of recreational ultralights, skydivers, flights out of private airstrips). Any air traffic in the area besides Flight 93 would have been noticed by Pittsburgh ATC, Cleveland Center, Johnstown Municipal, Arnold Palmer Airport in Latrobe and thousands of mountaintop residents of the Allegheny Plateau (Shanksville is about 1000ft asl and a very quiet area normally)

[OldTigerCub]

Well these are the same people who think a Predator might have been used to hit the Pentagon. Other than being about 20 feet long, having a single propeller in the back, and a top speed of about 80 MPH, it looks just like a 757! :D

Yeah, those Predators look just like a 757 after "happy hour"...but isn't "happy hour" after work?

:p

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Yeah, those Predators look just like a 757 after "happy hour"...but isn't "happy hour" after work?

:p


It's always Happy Hour for the truthers...

[Bell]

It's always Happy Hour for the truthers...

You're confusing happy hour with happy pill.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

You're confusing happy hour with happy pill.

That's their problem. They're not taking their happy pills!