Prayin' kid

[Chimera]

I teach first grade, and I try to incorporate my skepticism when I can. We have frequent discussions and experiments about whether or not crossing your fingers gets you your wish. My last year's class got broken of that belief pretty quickly.

So, this new school year, I have a boy who prays at the drop of a hat. At the end of the day, I pick 5 student names for a little prize. He prays while I do this. Then, whenever he does get picked, he says, "See? Praying works!" He does this at other times when he wants something too. Other than this little oddity, he's a perfect student: smart, well-behaved, and kind.

I've pretty much already made up my mind that I'm not even going to address it. Anything I do, no matter how well-meaning or gentle, would probably embarrass him, tick off his family, or worse. But, what do you guys think?

[Safe-Keeper]

I see your problem. Crossing fingers and praying have many similarities, but one of them may bring about the wrath of the Religious Right if challenged. I agree, it's probably best to do nothing.

[Apathia]

Do what most Christian teachers would do. Read him Matthew 6: 5-6. and tell him its not proper for him to make his religious life a public spectacle.

"But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father seess in secret will reward you."

[triadboy]

I teach first grade, ...

Bravo

I've pretty much already made up my mind that I'm not even going to address it. Anything I do, no matter how well-meaning or gentle, would probably embarrass him, tick off his family, or worse. But, what do you guys think?


To bad you couldn't inadvertently set up an accidental wish comparison between the finger-crosser and prayer-boy. "ooo...I'm sorry...looks like finger-crossing wins."

Other that that - I wouldn't do anything either.

[seanmcg]

In my opinion, you've made the correct decision. It is one thing to promote critical thinking in an impersonal context -- crossing fingers is a great example. However, if you cross the line into personal beliefs (be they in Jesus or in Santa Claus), you are setting yourself up to be jumped by the parents.

I can imagine that it's frustrating; as first graders, your students are not intellectually equipped to make the leap from "I should be skeptical about finger-crossing" to "I should be skeptical about prayer". But if you've demonstrated the value in asking questions and conducting experiments, you've already done them a great service.

[JoeEllison]

Yeah, I don't think it is your place to get involved... if he's a good kid and not causing disruptions with the prayer, it isn't anything you need to worry about.

[Safe-Keeper]

"But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father seess in secret will reward you."I fear this'd just cause the kid to run out of the classroom whenever he felt the need to pray.

[Apathia]

Actually this is what Christian parents and teachers resort to when a kid, or an adult for that matter. is being a potential public disruption with prayer.
Pray in secret, is the point made. The boy in question can talk to Jesus all he pleases if he just does it in silence without making it visible.

If you leave it alone, his classmates will take care of it. For better or worse.

[Tumblehome]

I think you're right not to specifically bring it up with him at that age, but it should be easy to disabuse him of the idea that praying works. Just don't ever pick him for the prize. (joking)

[Overman]

Whatever you do, don't do nothing!

Skepticism makes differences. You will find a way to teach him how, or at least show him the tools how to teach himself. I understand your difficult situation, and not wanting to rock the boat, but I am sure there is some common ground to be found there.

Every bit of skepticism can make a difference!

[tsg]

First, let me preface this by saying that I am not suggesting Chimera challenge this first grader's beliefs. It will invite a hailstorm of attention you don't want and could very likely cost you your job.

That being said, it annoys the crap out of me that you have to make that distinction. It's yet another example of religious beliefs getting special deference. Examining finger crossing is okay, but prayer off limits. It just supports the irrational notion that criticizing the belief is attacking the believer. It's crap.

I'd offer more constructive advice, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a possible lesson that won't get you fired.

[Madalch]

I fear this'd just cause the kid to run out of the classroom whenever he felt the need to pray.

I'd just point out that the kid may pray as often as he likes, but it's impolite to bring attention to the fact.

[Piscivore]

My son had to write a fictional story for school, then read it in class to be evaluated by his peers. Apparently, there is a little Jesus freak in his class that scored him one out of five because The Boy's story had three gods in it instead of just the one.

[Charlie Monoxide]

Make him read "The God Delusion" by Dawkins ....

Charlie (at least the comic version) Monoxide

[Dunstan]

When you say you pick students for a prize, do you mean you do it randomly, or based on their achievements and behavior for the day?

If it's the latter, then I think you could, without disparaging prayer, remind him that it's his hard work and good behavior that got him picked. But that's about the extent of what you can do; I agree with the others in this thread that you can't (and shouldn't) try to "prove" him wrong.

[IMST]

Do nothing. If you try to show him prayer doesn't work the parents will be all up on you. Probably with torches and pitchforks.
If you quote the bible to him, you are also behaving inappropriately.

Run far, far away from this one and hope he figures it out himself.
It's a pity, but sometimes we must be practical.

[petra10]

I agree you should leave it as it sounds like his parents are very religious people.They wouldn't take lightly to you making anything of this and could cause you trouble.
However the point about letting him know its his hard work that is the reason for picking him and not the praying sounds ok.

[Piscivore]

When you say you pick students for a prize, do you mean you do it randomly, or based on their achievements and behavior for the day?

If it's the latter, then I think you could, without disparaging prayer, ... never pick him again as long as he prays conspicuously?

[Overman]

First, let me preface this by saying that I am not suggesting Chimera challenge this first grader's beliefs. It will invite a hailstorm of attention you don't want and could very likely cost you your job.

That being said, it annoys the crap out of me that you have to make that distinction. It's yet another example of religious beliefs getting special deference. Examining finger crossing is okay, but prayer off limits. It just supports the irrational notion that criticizing the belief is attacking the believer. It's crap.

I'd offer more constructive advice, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a possible lesson that won't get you fired.

Quoted For Truth.

[Elind]

I teach first grade, and I try to incorporate my skepticism when I can. We have frequent discussions and experiments about whether or not crossing your fingers gets you your wish. My last year's class got broken of that belief pretty quickly.

So, this new school year, I have a boy who prays at the drop of a hat. At the end of the day, I pick 5 student names for a little prize. He prays while I do this. Then, whenever he does get picked, he says, "See? Praying works!" He does this at other times when he wants something too. Other than this little oddity, he's a perfect student: smart, well-behaved, and kind.

I've pretty much already made up my mind that I'm not even going to address it. Anything I do, no matter how well-meaning or gentle, would probably embarrass him, tick off his family, or worse. But, what do you guys think?

You could teach them a little about basic chance and luck. If your prizes are not based on tests and he is smart he might be impressed with learning that he wins as often as everyone else, without mentioning the prayer part at all.

[Chimera]

When you say you pick students for a prize, do you mean you do it randomly, or based on their achievements and behavior for the day? If it's the latter, then I think you could, without disparaging prayer, remind him that it's his hard work and good behavior that got him picked. But that's about the extent of what you can do; I agree with the others in this thread that you can't (and shouldn't) try to "prove" him wrong.


Yes, that's a good point. I put a ticket with the child's name in a box when I catch them doing something good, and at the end of the day I pick five tickets. So, praying wouldn't help at all if he'd been a heel all day. Maybe I can hint at this, at least.


That being said, it annoys the crap out of me that you have to make that distinction. It's yet another example of religious beliefs getting special deference. Examining finger crossing is okay, but prayer off limits. It just supports the irrational notion that criticizing the belief is attacking the believer. It's crap.


Yes, totally. There are plenty of other beliefs of theirs that I am supposed to challenge...such as, one cup of water is still one cup of water, even if you pour it into a tall, skinny container. Most six-year-olds don't believe that one until you do some experimentation. Prayer is irritatingly exempt from this kind of scrutiny.

[l0rca]

Maybe you should teach at a higher grade level? If you want to influence kids to think skeptically, doing so in the 7th grade is much better. They'll better remember the lesson, and because of their independance are much less apt to go home and tell mommy.

[quixotecoyote]

Maybe you should teach at a higher grade level? If you want to influence kids to think skeptically, doing so in the 7th grade is much better. They'll better remember the lesson, and because of their independance are much less apt to go home and tell mommy.

Doubtful. By that age they'll have figured out the ********* they can kick up by doing it intentionally. Ask me about the time my high school went on strike over a sexual harassment rumor.

[plumjam]

Alternatively you could take another tack and demonstrate to the rest of the class that by believing in the efficacy of prayer little Freddie is not in bad company:

Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Guru Nanak, St. Francis of Assisi, Krishna, the Dalai Lama, Ramana Maharshi, Ramakrishna, Padre Pio, Rumi, Hafiz, Meher Baba, Maximilian Kolbe etc etc..
If little Freddie turns out like any of these he won't have done badly.

Don't worry, as he gets older he'll see that prayer should be done with unselfish motives.

[Cello Man]

Alternatively you could take another tack and demonstrate to the rest of the class that by believing in the efficacy of prayer little Freddie is not in bad company:

Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Guru Nanak, St. Francis of Assisi, Krishna, the Dalai Lama, Ramana Maharshi, Ramakrishna, Padre Pio, Rumi, Hafiz, Meher Baba, Maximilian Kolbe etc etc...

Torquemada believed in prayer, too. So does Osama bin Laden. But using that as a legitimate argument against prayer would be silly because it's guilt by association, a logical fallacy. Your approach of honor by association is logically flawed for the same reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy#Honor_by_association

[triadboy]

Alternatively you could take another tack and demonstrate to the rest of the class that by believing in the efficacy of prayer little Freddie is not in bad company:

Yeah but if you just flip coins - which produces the same return as prayer does - then you don't have to waste Sundays in a special building where the invisible creature lives.

[The Grave]

I teach first grade, and I try to incorporate my skepticism when I can. We have frequent discussions and experiments about whether or not crossing your fingers gets you your wish. My last year's class got broken of that belief pretty quickly.

So, this new school year, I have a boy who prays at the drop of a hat. At the end of the day, I pick 5 student names for a little prize. He prays while I do this. Then, whenever he does get picked, he says, "See? Praying works!" He does this at other times when he wants something too. Other than this little oddity, he's a perfect student: smart, well-behaved, and kind.

I've pretty much already made up my mind that I'm not even going to address it. Anything I do, no matter how well-meaning or gentle, would probably embarrass him, tick off his family, or worse. But, what do you guys think?


I have many (private) students of many different faiths and non-believers too.

Think of your morgage!

But, slither like a snake, around the corner of their defences.

Don't directly challenge or try to test their 'god' or 'faith'; you may want to adopt an open class discusion, so as not to 'pick' on anyone...

I believe in 'hounding' Faithers but not Children.

And people shouldn't have the rights to 'believe what ever they want' if it includes gay-hate, female/child abuse and inter-religious feuding. They should be shot, and decrease the surplus faulty gene pool!

:seteacher:

[DoubtingStephen]

I agree with everyone else that you should not do anything to directly challenge this child's religious affliction, just as you should not challenge your students if they still believe in Yahweh Lite that brings them presents in a sleigh pulled by reindeer.

Eventually kids reach an age where they begin to question the fairy tales they were taught in their youth.

Teaching them critical thinking skills is certainly a good idea, because this will help them in every aspect of their lives.

[qayak]

I think you should talk to the parents about his disruption and let them know that if he does not stop you will be forced to demonstrate that his belief is a delusion in order to protect the minds of the other kids. In private, it is a private matter but if he drags it out in public, it is a public matter and fair game for examination.

If they don't correct his bad behaviour, put prayer to the crossed finger test.

[Eck]

I agree with your decision to not adress the issue head on, and pretty much for the reasons you state. By incorporating skepticism in your classes, as illustrated by the finger crossing experiment, you are providing him with the tools that might lead him to see the truth on his own, though probably down the road as he ages.

Continue to encourage critical thinking in your students by looking at noncontrversial issues and they will hopefully take it to heart enough that they'll use it to explore such questions of faith on their own. No need to expose yourself to the minefield of other people's religous sensibilities and the consequences that might involve, possibly even your removal from the classroom which might result in them not even learning the skill set for critical inquiry from another teacher.

Hats off to you for your lessons, I think the students have a great teacher.

[Beerina]

Is this picking of 5 random or just kids who stood out somehow that day?

In any case, you could do a statistical analysis of how many times each child has won. Perhaps this kid is behind the average.

Or you could make him cry by pointing out that, if prayer was actually working, then one of the following must be true:

1. The kid won, when he didn't actually deserve it, because God warped your, the teacher's, mind.

2. The kid won because he did well, but he did well because God helped him. So again, he didn't really deserve it, and technically cheated by getting help from God.


Eh, it's fun to imagine anyway. :o


Sam Kinison: I love how boxers always thank God after they win their match. What's the loser supposed to say? "I was doin' OK in there -- until Jesus made me lose!"

[Kochanski]

Alternatively you could take another tack and demonstrate to the rest of the class that by believing in the efficacy of prayer little Freddie is not in bad company:

Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Guru Nanak, St. Francis of Assisi, Krishna, the Dalai Lama, Ramana Maharshi, Ramakrishna, Padre Pio, Rumi, Hafiz, Meher Baba, Maximilian Kolbe etc etc..
If little Freddie turns out like any of these he won't have done badly.

Don't worry, as he gets older he'll see that prayer should be done with unselfish motives.

Oh sure, teach them a logical fallacy, right. Chimera has a hard enough time dealing with teaching them skepticism without adding that to the curriculum.