If you had a religion-erasing wand...

[Safe-Keeper]

OK, this one is for the anti-theists such as myself. If you received a magic wand that you could wave to instantly erase religion from the world, would you do it? To further define the effect of the wand, I'm talking of every single present and future human being on this planet having his or her belief in supernatural beings and afterlife vanish completely, instantly, and permanently. In short, it removes religion from the world forever.

Personally, I'd not use the wand. While you have the obvious benefit of religious nut jobs from the Pope to Usama vanishing, lots of ordinary moderates rely on the teachings and stories of mythology for comfort and guidance, and taking this away could do a lot of damage. Whether or not this damage would be compensated for by the end of Holy Wars and Religion-inspired terrorism, I do not know.

Elaborate on what you would want, and the reasons behind your choice.

[JoeEllison]

I'd go a step further, and remove the religious impulse. That way, you don't have people creating a new cult based on a different set of irrational beliefs, like the Soviets and the Republicans have done.

[skeptifem]

maybe i would do it if i could erase specific religions. buddism and wicca are harmless imo and i dont think i would want to get rid of them because it doesnt hurt anyone.

i dont know if could really do that even. its really hard for me to morally accept anyone making choices for everyone else in the world when it comes to personal lifestyle choice. sometimes i think that people just use religion to justify the crappy things they would have done anyway, so it might not make the world a much better place to scrap it completely.

[triadboy]

I said I would use it - but that is scary because, apparently Xians need religion to keep from killing others.

[tsg]

OK, this one is for the anti-theists such as myself. If you received a magic wand that you could wave to instantly erase religion from the world,

*POOOF*

Oh, you weren't done yet? Sorry.


would you do it? To further define the effect of the wand, I'm talking of every single present and future human being on this planet having his or her belief in supernatural beings and afterlife vanish completely, instantly, and permanently. In short, it removes religion from the world forever.

Personally, I'd not use the wand. While you have the obvious benefit of religious nut jobs from the Pope to Usama vanishing, lots of ordinary moderates rely on the teachings and stories of mythology for comfort and guidance, and taking this away could do a lot of damage. Whether or not this damage would be compensated for by the end of Holy Wars and Religion-inspired terrorism, I do not know.

Elaborate on what you would want, and the reasons behind your choice.

*POOOF* *POOOFITY POOFITY POOF*

*cough* *waves away clouds of smoke*

Now, where do I go to get this thing tuned to handle other woo?

[Lord Muck oGentry]

I like the end, but I don't fancy the means. So back into the box it goes.

I'd like to burn the wand too, just to avoid temptation in the future, but that doesn't seem to be an option.

[Safe-Keeper]

I'd go a step further, and remove the religious impulse. That way, you don't have people creating a new cult based on a different set of irrational beliefs, like the Soviets and the Republicans have done.Yes. Well, the real point of this thread is to see how many of us anti-theists would like religion to go away. Bringing up cults of personalities makes a potentially good point for its continued existence, as the moderates are catching those who would otherwise join shady cults for their 'worship fix'.

[tsg]

I'd go a step further, and remove the religious impulse. That way, you don't have people creating a new cult based on a different set of irrational beliefs, like the Soviets and the Republicans have done.

Or, you could just wave the wand again.


*POOOF*

[Hokulele]

I don't believe in magic wands, so I would use it in an attempt to find out if magic wands exist or not. ;)

[Mangafranga]

Yes. Well, the real point of this thread is to see how many of us anti-theists would like religion to go away. Bringing up cults of personalities makes a potentially good point for its continued existence, as the moderates are catching those who would otherwise join shady cults for their 'worship fix'.But one can want it to go away without wanting to magically force a change in peoples beliefs.

[Mashuna]

I used my wand to eradicate the belief in Xahentaalia. That was a nasty religion.

[Tanstaafl]

I wouldn't use the wand, only because it would violate the prime directive.

I'm not allowed to alter the development of this alien planet. :(

But one can want it to go away without wanting to magically force a change in peoples beliefs.


And that too.

[ThatSoundAgain]

But one can want it to go away without wanting to magically force a change in peoples beliefs.

Exactly. This is not a decision I'm remotely qualified to make. One thing I like even less than organised religion is (the purely hypothetical of) one person determining what the rest of mankind should believe.

I say talk them out of it.

[IMST]

What's this wand doing in my hand and why is it aggressively waving?
Must be magic.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I would so hold the religions for randsome.

Call up a grand ceremony of all religions, and get them dedicated to world peace. Or else...

And then I will start a chain of super secret costumed Wand bearers to keep tabs on religious world peace.

[Loss Leader]

Why use it? Just so I can hear people be asinine about new, as yet undiscovered topics? I'll take the devil I know.

[Foster Zygote]

I couldn't bring myself to do it. It's use would seem too parallel to many of what I consider to be the worst elements of religion.

ETA: Although I do find Tsukasa's idea rather tempting.:)

[Elind]

Unfortunately it would make everyone who was a woo of some sort become a Scientologist.

[gnome]

I would love religion to become obsolete, but to erase it directly from the minds of people who currently incorporate it into their personality would do no good. Such a change must come about naturally or not at all.

Besides, if there really are magic wands, I might need another look at religion.

[Fnord]

If you received a magic wand that you could wave to instantly erase religion from the world, would you do it


Ooo ... tempting! I'd love to do away with religion, but I've yet to see a clear-cut definition of "Religion" that everyone could agree on.

For instance, the behavior some folks exhibit during playoff season is as obsessively fanatical as any Hallelujah revival. Should we go by their behavior and call sports fanaticism religion?

Or what about the fact that religion and faith are two different things?

- Faith is the belief in things unprovable.
- Religion is the socio-political expression (politics) of that faith.

Delete the expression of unprovable belief, and most sales/marketing people would be out of jobs; not to mention lawyers, lobbyists, and the people who print cards for Valentine's Day.

Deleting religion would do no more than prevent the open expression of someone's faith; it would not prevent them from believing in things they could not prove.

[Slimething]

I wouldn't use it although I don't like religion. If the wand did not also erase the need for religion in most folks, it would be right back again in no time, maybe even worse. It'd the devil you know. :(

[Slimething]

Ooo ... tempting! I'd love to do away with religion, but I've yet to see a clear-cut definition of "Religion" that everyone could agree on.

For instance, the behavior some folks exhibit during playoff season is as obsessively fanatical as any Hallelujah revival. Should we go by their behavior and call sports fanaticism religion?

Or what about the fact that religion and faith are two different things?

- Faith is the belief in things unprovable.
- Religion is the socio-political expression (politics) of that faith.

Delete the expression of unprovable belief, and most sales/marketing people would be out of jobs; not to mention lawyers, lobbyists, and the people who print cards for Valentine's Day.

Deleting religion would do no more than prevent the open expression of someone's faith; it would not prevent them from believing in things they could not prove.

Obtuse post. First, religion undefined then later defined incorrectly and ad absurdum. Religion does have a definition. I'd post it but you really should educate yourself.

[joobz]

I would pull out my "fight the hypothetical" and secretly turn the wand into the religion-multiplication wand. Bwa ha ha ha ha.

[Piggy]

To further define the effect of the wand, I'm talking of every single present and future human being on this planet having his or her belief in supernatural beings and afterlife vanish completely, instantly, and permanently. In short, it removes religion from the world forever.

I'd have to ask: How?

Seems to me, the predisposition to religious thinking is an embedded side-effect of our brain structure.

So, to remove it, we'd have to make ourselves something other than what we are.

You can't just remove religious thought and keep everything else intact.

Would the wand accomplish its ends by turning us into slugs or begonias?

[ImaginalDisc]

I'd have to ask: How?

Seems to me, the predisposition to religious thinking is an embedded side-effect of our brain structure.

So, to remove it, we'd have to make ourselves something other than what we are.

You can't just remove religious thought and keep everything else intact.

Would the wand accomplish its ends by turning us into slugs or begonias?

Magic.

Wand.

Hypothetical.

Situation.

[Complexity]

I would not use the wand.

People need to avoid/escape religion on their own, or doing so has no value. The process is more important than the outcome.

[Puppycow]

I wouldn't use the wand, only because it would violate the prime directive.

I'm not allowed to alter the development of this alien planet. :(

Good call. May you live long and prosper. :)

I would not use the wand.

People need to avoid/escape religion on their own, or doing so has no value. The process is more important than the outcome.
That, too.
I'm against religion because I'm against brainwashing, and this would be the ultimate totalitarian solution. Too utopian.

Besides, then I would no longer be able to kvetch about religion and feel smugly superior. Boooring.

[Puppycow]

I don't believe in magic wands, so I would use it in an attempt to find out if magic wands exist or not. ;)

Not to mention that if a Magic Wand actually existed, it would imply that the supernatural is real, so the scientific worldview would be flawed. God might actually exist. So we might need religion after all.

[Complexity]

Another reason that I wouldn't use the wand is that I regard my mind quite fallible and my thinking as suspect.

[Puppycow]

Another reason that I wouldn't use the wand is that I regard my mind quite fallible and my thinking as suspect.

A good thing, too. We should all be wary of hubris.

In fact, the first thing I would have to do is throw out my whole worldveiw and start over from scratch, because I don't believe in magic wands.

[Piggy]

Magic.

Wand.

Hypothetical.

Situation.

Yeah

I

know

but

what

I'm

saying

is

that

one

can't

even

imagine

removing

religous

thinking

while

leaving

all

else

the

same

even

hypothetically

[ImaginalDisc]

Yeah

I

know

but

what

I'm

saying

is

that

one

can't

even

imagine

removing

religous

thinking

while

leaving

all

else

the

same

even

hypothetically

You

are

fighting

the

premise

rather

than

making

a

choice.


It's

called

"fighting

the

hypo"

which

kinda

reminds

me

of

that

homo

erotic

Star

Trek

episode

where

Kirk

and

Spock

fight

after

McCoy

injects

Kirk

with

a

hypospray

but,

that

is

neither

here

nor

there.

[Undesired Walrus]

I fail to see the problem of Mrs Dotty from Yorkshire and her friends going to worship something that I don't think is there every Sunday.

Get a grip.

[Gurdur]

I'd go a step further, and remove the religious impulse. That way, you don't have people creating a new cult based on a different set of irrational beliefs, like the Soviets and the Republicans have done.

No, instead you can have thought control, exactly like the Soviets attempted. Congratulations?

[tsg]

Ooo ... tempting! I'd love to do away with religion, but I've yet to see a clear-cut definition of "Religion" that everyone could agree on.

"The subset of beliefs it is not permitted to criticize or question." Everything else I can handle without a magic wand.

[tsg]

I fail to see the problem of Mrs Dotty from Yorkshire and her friends going to worship something that I don't think is there every Sunday.

Get a grip.

If that's all the religious did, you might have a point. As it isn't, you don't.

[TX50]

It's all ideomotor reaction. Religion-erasing wands have never been shown to
work in controlled tests. :D

Me, I'd wave it so hard it'd probably melt!

[Fnord]

I fail to see the problem of Mrs Dotty from Yorkshire and her friends going to worship something that I don't think is there every Sunday.

Get a grip.

But ... but ... they're throwing their pension money into a collections basket, instead of spending it on YOU at the pub!

It's an outrage, but be thankful that there is still such a thing as a strongly-worded letter to the editor of the Times!

[slingblade]

Personally, I'd not use the wand. While you have the obvious benefit of religious nut jobs from the Pope to Usama vanishing, lots of ordinary moderates rely on the teachings and stories of mythology for comfort and guidance, and taking this away could do a lot of damage.

In your opinion it could do damage. In my opinon, we can still use those same stories. Everyone in them can be human, and the occurences can be valid ones within perceived reality. There's no need to have magic wishes in a story to teach the value of thinking about what you ask for, before you ask.

What your wand does is put an end to all fantasy, including religion. However, I'm quite able to enjoy a fantasy story without having to believe in the fantasy. Thus, my wand wouldn't do that.

My wand would enable people to enjoy and use their imaginations, yet still be able to firmly discern between the real and the unreal. I don't have to believe flying horses are real in order to enjoy the story of Pegasus.

[Reinhard]

I would probably wave the wand... now to attempt to explain why!

A lot of people have talked about it being an obstruction to a person's right to make their own decision, and this makes me think, because people should be free to choose what they think is best. The trouble for me is that I don't think religion does this. You can't choose to be religious or to have faith; you just do. I would personally remove that impulse. Religion may provide comfort, but it also provides evil, and it's my opinion that evil is more powerful than good.

So... yeah. Poofity poof.

[Fnord]

Sorry, gotta do this ... and it's nothing personal ...

You can't choose to be religious or to have faith; you just do. I would personally remove that impulse.

If you remove the "religion impulse" then you remove all forms of obsessive and ritualistic behavior. Think of all those professional and collegiate sports programs that would go unfunded because there were no fans ("fanatics") left to spend $300 for a bowl game ticket! What would happen to them?

If you remove the "faith impulse" then you risk removing the primary motivating factor for investments. Imagine what would happen to the economy if there was no one left to have faith that the housing market would eventually recover! Would you take out a 30-year mortgage without an act of faith?

Religion may provide comfort, but it also provides evil, and it's my opinion that evil is more powerful than good.

A gun may provide food for the table (which is good), but it also provides death to crime victims (which is evil). Since (in your opinion) evil is more powerful than good, guns should be banned -- poofitty-poof!

Personally, I'd like to eliminate the obsessive bipolarism that predominates any "Us" versus "Not Us" institution, including organized sports, churches, temples, mosques, union halls, political parties, country clubs, gated communities, the Fox network ... et cetera.

[Darth Rotor]

I would not use the wand.

People need to avoid/escape religion on their own, or doing so has no value. The process is more important than the outcome.
If you keep making sense, you will spend a night in the box. (Well said.)

Since we are imagining magical wands here, I'd like one that I can use to cast the Polymorph Other spell from Dungeons and Dragons.

I could have so much fun with that.

DR

[Fnord]

Since we are imagining magical wands here, I'd like one that I can use to cast the Polymorph Other spell from Dungeons and Dragons.


Give me the Ring of Air Elemental Command. Imagine ... invisible flight ...

"LAX control, something just impacted our number three engine ... we must abort ... please clear a runway for emergency landing ..."

Then again, maybe not.

[triadboy]

If you remove the "religion impulse" then you remove all forms of obsessive and ritualistic behavior. Think of all those professional and collegiate sports programs that would go unfunded because there were no fans ("fanatics") left to spend $300 for a bowl game ticket! What would happen to them?

The Religion Impulse speaks to the "afterlife". That's what religion is - an explanation of the "afterlife". Obsessions, ritualistic behavior, sports, etc. don't apply.

If you remove the "faith impulse" then you risk removing the primary motivating factor for investments. Imagine what would happen to the economy if there was no one left to have faith that the housing market would eventually recover! Would you take out a 30-year mortgage without an act of faith?

You are confusing 'faith' and 'trust'.

Faith is believing what you know ain't so. (Mark Twain)

[Fnord]

The Religion Impulse speaks to the "afterlife". That's what religion is - an explanation of the "afterlife". Obsessions, ritualistic behavior, sports, etc. don't apply.

No, theistic and agnostic studies refer to the Afterlife as the Metaphysical Model. It transcendes religion, which is the socio-political application of faith.

You are confusing 'faith' and 'trust'.

No, I know that faith is the intellectualized belief in things unprovable, while trust has some form of emotional imprinting from similar past experiences involved.

[articulett]

I'd like to wave the want and get rid of the "faith is good" meme along with the "atheists are evil" meme.

[tsg]

I'd like to wave the want and get rid of the "faith is good" meme along with the "atheists are evil" meme.

I'm pretty sure that if you got rid of the first let the second would go away all on its own.

[Fnord]

May as well get rid of the "Atheists are good" and "Faith is evil" memes while you're at it. That would leave only the "Faith? Atheism? Whatever..." meme, thus eliminating the entire conflict.

[Cello Man]

* Poof. *

So does this thing work on nationalism and tribalism, too?

[tsg]

May as well get rid of the "Atheists are good" and "Faith is evil" memes while you're at it. That would leave only the "Faith? Atheism? Whatever..." meme, thus eliminating the entire conflict.

*POOOF*

[Darth Rotor]

* Poof. *

So does this thing work on nationalism and tribalism, too?

No, that wand is on back order. Sorry.

DR

[articulett]

*POOOF*

:)

(what an evil atheist you are... I concur--pass me that wand.)

[Lord Muck oGentry]

A lot of people have talked about it being an obstruction to a person's right to make their own decision, and this makes me think, because people should be free to choose what they think is best.

The trouble for me is that I don't think religion does this. You can't choose to be religious or to have faith; you just do.

Reinhard,

I'm not sure what you are driving at here, so you may have to help me understand.

In the meantime, let me suggest- unless you tell me otherwise- that you may have run together two different senses in which we can be unfree to form beliefs.

In the first sense, we are not free to form beliefs that are inconsistent with what we take ( rightly or wrongly) to be sound argument or powerful evidence. For example, I am not free to form the opinion that the sides and the hypotenuse of a right isosceles triangle are commensurable, or that things let drop fall up rather than down. Similarly, a religious believer who is persuaded by ( thoroughly bad!) arguments from Anselm or Aquinas that a deity exists is not free to believe otherwise.

In the second sense, we are unfree to form beliefs where we are coerced. The magic wand is a splendid example. Its use entails no attempt to persuade by any means, good or bad: the will of the user settles the matter.

From the fact that a religious believer is unfree in the first sense it does not follow that he is unfree ( coerced) in the second.


You may have meant that religious belief is often inculcated by means that are no better than coercion- for example, in the indoctrination of children too young to have any critical resistance. If so, I shan't disagree, although it may be worth pointing out that autonomous adults sometimes pass from unbelief to belief under their own steam, as one of my friends recently did.


In the end, however, I suspect that what divides me from you and the current majority of voters is a view about acceptable methods of changing religious belief. If believers are to be won over, they deserve to be won over by argument and evidence.

[articulett]

But what good is argument and evidence for someone who believes that FAITH is the key to salvation-- and "biting from the tree of knowledge" can lead to damnation. If you're meme infected... that's just part of Satan's tools...

[wuschel]

OK, this one is for the anti-theists such as myself. If you received a magic wand that you could wave to instantly erase religion from the world, would you do it? To further define the effect of the wand, I'm talking of every single present and future human being on this planet having his or her belief in supernatural beings and afterlife vanish completely, instantly, and permanently. In short, it removes religion from the world forever.

Personally, I'd not use the wand. While you have the obvious benefit of religious nut jobs from the Pope to Usama vanishing, lots of ordinary moderates rely on the teachings and stories of mythology for comfort and guidance, and taking this away could do a lot of damage. Whether or not this damage would be compensated for by the end of Holy Wars and Religion-inspired terrorism, I do not know.

Elaborate on what you would want, and the reasons behind your choice.The last time I used a magic wand, it would have made communism go away. I'm a bit skeptical about the anti-religion wand now, as the consequence likely would involve homeopaths with AK 47's flying jets into high rise buildings.

[triadboy]

No, theistic and agnostic studies refer to the Afterlife as the Metaphysical Model. It transcendes religion, which is the socio-political application of faith.

:D (That's a joke, right?)

**********

No, I know that faith is the intellectualized belief in things unprovable, while trust has some form of emotional imprinting from similar past experiences involved.

Do you have 'faith' the sun will rise tomorrow?

[Slimething]

:D (That's a joke, right?)

No, he got it out of his Book of Fnord's Made-Up For the Moment Facts. Wish I had one of those babies.

His posts may force me to change my vote and swing (the damned wand) for the fences. Without religion, no Fnord. Imagine there's no country...

[slingblade]

If you keep making sense, you will spend a night in the box. (Well said.)

Since we are imagining magical wands here, I'd like one that I can use to cast the Polymorph Other spell from Dungeons and Dragons.

I could have so much fun with that.

DR

Yes, yes, but for utility, you really need Bag of Holding.

[ThatSoundAgain]

Yes, yes, but for utility, you really need Bag of Holding.

Personally, I'd just go for the Trench Coat Effect as my shtick. Or maybe the Swashbuckler combined with a Bag of Holding would be cooler.

[-Fran-]

I would not use the wand.

People need to avoid/escape religion on their own, or doing so has no value. The process is more important than the outcome.

I'm not sure I understood the OP correctly, but if all belief in religion of all kinds was removed (magically as it seems :)) wouldn't that kind of be the same thing as to also remove the need for religious beliefs, or it would just come back in other forms right away, as many already have noted.

I guess I am asking if the wand only removes the manifestations of religious behaviour and beliefs that we see today (such as all the religions that exists, and have existed). Or does it remove religious behaviour in itself?

If this magic wand then made the world into one where religious behaviour, or the need for it, have never existed at all, then there would be no need for people to get away from religion on their own, since it has never existed...

OK, I am confusing myself here... :confused:

Personally I would not grieve the disappearence of religion in itself, I am not very fond of it, to express myself mildly. Though it would be sad if all the religious architecture and art went with it. A cathedral, for example, is a wonderful thing, it would be very sad if it would go POOOF together with the beliefs, know what I mean? :)

Can I wave the wand to get rid of religious beliefs while all the art stays? It could be interesting to see people walk around wondering what those buildings are for :D

[articulett]

Can I wave the wand to get rid of religious beliefs while all the art stays? It could be interesting to see people walk around wondering what those buildings are for :D

And all those little hippie on a stick dolls...

[-Fran-]

And all those little hippie on a stick dolls...

What are those? :o:)

[articulett]

What are those? :o:)

It appears to be some sort of idolatry or statue worship involving the letter t and loin cloths-- but hell, if I know...

[bjb]

I'd rather have a wand that causes people to recognize irrational behavior when they see it, especially in themselves.

[six7s]

Religion is a symptom - not the cause - of the problem, which is that we live in a world where - despite 1000s of years with opposable thumbs and relatively large brains - stupidity hasn't been eradicated from the human gene pool

Wisdom is an inhibitor of, not vaccine for, stupidity

Men are wise in proportion, not to their experience, but to their capacity for experience.
James Boswell (1740 - 1795), Life of Samuel Johnson, 1791

The magic-wand would merely alleviate one symptom; it wouldn't promote the growth of anti-bodies

We don't receive wisdom; we must discover it for ourselves after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us.
Marcel Proust (1871 - 1922)

N.B. I am not oblivious to the irony of copying and pasting such a quote ;)

[Lord Muck oGentry]

But what good is argument and evidence for someone who believes that FAITH is the key to salvation-- and "biting from the tree of knowledge" can lead to damnation.

Little or none, I should think, in the hopeless cases at any rate. But what we need protection from is not what they think but what they do or threaten to do- from murderous violence to genteel bigotry. In the world of the magic wand we may, just as in the humdrum world we must, seek protection by mundane methods without resorting to mind-control.