White Thermite Smoke

[GT/CS]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but has this picture of smoke coming from one of the towers just before it collapsed been discussed here?

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5276/screenhunter057jk0.jpg

LCF thinks it's from the thermite.

Dylan Avery; Badmachine, I'm going to have to agree with you that this is undeniable proof that the fires alone were not responsible for the collapse. I've been going through alot of footage, particularly this one NBC shot, and this is definitely a sudden chemical reaction, producing a massive amount of white smoke.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12576

[Drudgewire]

"Undeniable proof"

:dl:

[Garb]

So now Dylan is a Chemist?

Do I even need to bother with getting a college degree now, cause it seems like I can just go on site for work and know everything.

[leftysergeant]

It looks more like diffused smoke from a class A fire. And the location makes no sense, in terms of CD. One charge would cause an assymetrical collapse.

Whatever it is does not seem to have diffused ionside the building.

I'm still puzzling over the significance of the fact that a piece of the facade appears to be missing right above it.

[twinstead]

Could something have fallen during the impact down the side of the building, very close but not touching it, and finally impacted where the facade is missing?

[DGM]

Dylan Avery; Badmachine, I'm going to have to agree with you that this is undeniable proof that the fires alone were not responsible for the collapse. I've been going through alot of footage, particularly this one NBC shot, and this is definitely a sudden chemical reaction, producing a massive amount of white smoke.

Wow he can rule out steam from a picture. It must be from the smell.:rolleyes:

[Bell]

It looks more like diffused smoke from a class A fire. And the location makes no sense, in terms of CD. One charge would cause an assymetrical collapse.

Whatever it is does not seem to have diffused ionside the building.

I'm still puzzling over the significance of the fact that a piece of the facade appears to be missing right above it.

Seems to me those are banners and a streetlight.

Anywoo, this picture is in The Doc's video (I know, because I pointed him to this picture :) ), don't remember what caused it though. Iirc it was fires from cars in the garage.

[Pardalis]

Or could it be the smoke from the burnt elevator cars in the basement?

[Unfit4Command]

Or could it be the smoke from the burnt elevator cars in the basement?

No, it's thermite or thermate weakening the base of the building before the collapse initiates from the impact point and the areas of the heaviest fires.

[Bell]

Wow he can rule out steam from a picture. It must be from the smell.:rolleyes:

Oh wait! What was that again? I rember a thread about some conspiraloon using a spectrometer on a tv to messure the temp of the 'thermite' that was flowing down WTC2? Or something like that.

[defaultdotxbe]

No, it's thermite or thermate weakening the base of the building before the collapse initiates from the impact point and the areas of the heaviest fires.
no, the thermite is up near the fires, but they are pumping the smoke down to the base of the towers because if they let it out at the top everyone would see it

my explanation is more needlessly complex, therefore more truthy than yours

[Sabrina]

Considering the damage to the lobby you can see in the Naudet documentary, I'd be inclined to lean toward the damage from falling elevators/the fireball mentioned in many eyewitness accounts as being the culprit. But that's me.

[LashL]

I've seen video of that from a different angle that shows the location much better. It shows the "Park Fast" sign and the parking lot, and then it zooms in on the source of the smoke, which is a vehicle on fire, right near the bottom of that downward section of the overhead walkway. I'll see if if I can find the video, as it is pretty clear that it is in the exact location shown in that photo, but from an angle that makes it obvious that the smoke is coming from a vehicle on fire.

[Sabrina]

Oooooh, please do find that, LashL! I'd be very interested to see it.

[LashL]

I'm a bit video challenged, but I found some screenshots that I grabbed from the video when I first saw it. I'll keep looking for the video as well, though.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f0887c11c04.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f08898c2efc.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f088c6cd1cd.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f088dd7dd23.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f088f4174b7.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f0890f63e68.jpg

The powers that be tell me that I've reached the maximum number of photos that I can upload so I'll have to purge some stuff and upload the last couple of screen grabs in another post in a few minutes.

[Alareth]

I'm a bit video challenged, but I found some screenshots that I grabbed from the video when I first saw it. I'll keep looking for the video as well, though.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f0887c11c04.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f08898c2efc.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f088c6cd1cd.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f088dd7dd23.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f088f4174b7.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f0890f63e68.jpg

The powers that be tell me that I've reached the maximum that I can upload so I'll have to purge some stuff and upload the last couple of screen grabs in another post in a few minutes.

Bah! You can prove anything that is even remotely true using "Facts" and "Evidence".

I'm not impressed. :p

[GT/CS]

Wow, this is an amazing group!

[LashL]

I cleared out my allotted photo storage space to make room for the last couple of video captures, as I mentioned in my post above, so here they are.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f08e56e89ad.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f08e715c4f3.jpg

I'll still look for the video, though. I saw it on either youtube or googlevideo. Based on the dates of the captured images on my computer, it appears that I viewed it in April.

[mortimer]

I cleared out my allotted photo storage space to make room for the last couple of video captures, as I mentioned in my post above, so here they are.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f08e56e89ad.jpg

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_1110346f08e715c4f3.jpg

I'll still look for the video, though. I saw it on either youtube or googlevideo. Based on the dates of the captured images on my computer, it appears that I viewed it in April.

Shill!!!!onetwelvety!!

[geni]

Most common materials burning cleanly can produce white smoke but this doesn't look that white by the door opening.

[geni]

Shill!!!!onetwelvety!!

Seriouly joke so old it belongs on YTMND. It wasn't very funny the first 2000 times.

[celestrin]

klgf3aMuczA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klgf3aMuczA

[mortimer]

Seriouly joke so old it belongs on YTMND. It wasn't very funny the first 2000 times.

Thanks, I'll take that under consideration. I appreciate your useful reply.

[geni]

hmm would the sprinkler system have still been working on the ground floor?

[LashL]

I found it. Here's the video.

qraALi7Flnc

The relevant part starts at about 30 seconds in and runs to approximately 1 minute in.

Compare this (and the stills) to the photo in the OP, adjust for the angle of view, and I think it's clear that we have a match as to the location and as to the source of the smoke.

[LashL]

klgf3aMuczA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klgf3aMuczA

Thanks, celestrin. I didn't see your post before I posted mine, but yours shows that this video was posted long before I saw it in April, as the one you posted appears to have been uploaded in August of 2006.

Cheers,
Lash :)

[Slayhamlet]

Has anyone informed the Loosers of the video yet? I'm interested to see how they will spin this incontrovertible proof that the source of the smoke is from outside the building.

[LashL]

Thanks, I'll take that under consideration. I appreciate your useful reply.

For what it's worth, I still thought it was funny. :D

[Slayhamlet]

Thanks, celestrin. I didn't see your post before I posted mine, but yours shows that this video was posted long before I saw it in April, as the one you posted appears to have been uploaded in August of 2006.

Cheers,
Lash :)

His also doesn't list a bunch of twoofer sites in the info box. :p

[LashL]

hmm would the sprinkler system have still been working on the ground floor?

Gee, I don't know, but what does that have to do with a fire in an outdoor parking lot? I am quite certain that there was no sprinkler system in the parking lot where that van was burning because there is a clear view of the area and not a single skyhook in sight.

[MIKILLINI]

A sudden chemical reaction is right as compared to a sudden organic reaction. But why is the reaction always assumed to be thermite/thermate by these guys?
Nothing else pertaining to a little common sense and not jumping to conclusions registers with a lot of the truthers about this.
GT/CS, you came to the right place to get correct answers.

[ref]

Aawh what idios at LCF.

They ask do we only see what we want to see. No. THEY WANT to see thermite. And once again jump to the conlusion that this was smoke from a thermite reaction. Oh why.

[Bell]

Great find LashL, allthough to me it sure looks like that the smoke in the picture linked to in the OP is coming from inside Tower 2.

[leftysergeant]

So now, before rubbing Dylan's nose in this woo-woo, we should determine the cause of ignition and the collapse of the structure across the parking lot. I'm not too familiar with the ground plan here. Which aircraft would have dropped major parts here or shoved burning office contents onto the cars and the bridge?

This also accounts, I think, for the explosions on the street that so many witnesses described. I think it especially applies to the Ondrovic testimony.

[Blackadder_no]

That's white smoke in the OP photo? Looks pretty dark to me.

As for the video; I'm guessing glycol from one of the burning vehicles.

Edit: Could also be from some air conditioning system?

[ref]

The south tower had falling elevators and a fireball as well. The elevators hit the basement, so no doubt they could have started some fires.

http://archive.recordonline.com/adayinseptember/jones.htm

But I found out later, when the plane came through the building, it cut the hoist ropes, the governor ropes, of (the) 6 and 7 cars, which was the observation cars.

Every night they would park those two cars up on the 107th floor. At the time the plane impacted B Tower, the observation deck wasn’t open yet, which was another life-saving factor. At the time it impacted the building, they hadn’t opened the observation deck.

Had they, there would’ve been many, maybe another 1,000, 2,000 people on the rooftop, because it was a clear day. It was a beautiful day.

What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.

[R.Mackey]

Not to muddy the waters, but burning tires also give off a surprisingly white and thick smoke as well -- surprising if you've never done it, that is. Useful to know if you're ever stranded and trying to signal aircraft...

This is just another episode of people with a tenuous grip on real life, I believe. There are literally hundreds of more plausible explanations than mystery therm?te, even if we ignore that it would have accomplished nothing of value so low in the structure.

[leftysergeant]

I think the color has to do with the direction of the light.

If you watch an oil fire at some stages, when it is producing little smoke, or the smoke is being dispersed, it looks brown from one side, blue from the other. Rarely is it totally black, unless it is extremely dense.

Actually, very few things are truely black. There is, in fact, no truely black pigment. They could probably better be called ultraviolet (ivory black) or infrared (lampblack.)

[Wildy]

A sudden chemical reaction is right as compared to a sudden organic reaction. But why is the reaction always assumed to be thermite/thermate by these guys?
Nothing else pertaining to a little common sense and not jumping to conclusions registers with a lot of the truthers about this.
GT/CS, you came to the right place to get correct answers.

Is it because they have no actual evidence and instead grasp at straws? It's like being told that Occam's Razor doesn't apply to the events of September 11.

[ref]

This is just another episode of people with a tenuous grip on real life, I believe. There are literally hundreds of more plausible explanations than mystery therm?te, even if we ignore that it would have accomplished nothing of value so low in the structure.

Exactly. They somehow find it perfectly normal, that the bad guys would start a thermite reaction in the basement of a tower a few minutes before the building collapses from the top down.

This is one of the stupidest theories ever. Has always been.

[Bell]

So now, before rubbing Dylan's nose in this woo-woo, we should determine the cause of ignition and the collapse of the structure across the parking lot. I'm not too familiar with the ground plan here. Which aircraft would have dropped major parts here or shoved burning office contents onto the cars and the bridge?

This also accounts, I think, for the explosions on the street that so many witnesses described. I think it especially applies to the Ondrovic testimony.

Lefty, what collapsed structure are you talking about?

[Mancman]

Exactly. They somehow find it perfectly normal, that the bad guys would start a thermite reaction in the basement of a tower a few minutes before the building collapses from the top down.

This is one of the stupidest theories ever. Has always been.

This photo also shows smoke at the base, and was taken at 9:19am:
http://www.zenaa.com/cgi-bin/wtcpic.cgi?pic=14


That thermite was going for a good 40 minutes. :eye-poppi

[peteweaver]

as anyone with a brain knows fuel had poured down the lift shafts and had burned people in the lobby.

The Naudet brothers saw the effects.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5276/screenhunter057jk0.jpg

This picture only proves that there had been a fire, not what was burning.

[cloudshipsrule]

If white smoke indicates thermite, and putting dry ice in water creates a white, smoke-like substance, does that mean dry ice in water actually creates a thermite burn?

How much does a witch weigh? About as much as a duck or a very small rock.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

This ranks right up there with the "what caused the damage to this building?" nonsense Dylan posted a few months(?) ago...

(And a TTD of a little over 3 hours for new CT claim isn't too shabby.)

[LashL]

Great find LashL, allthough to me it sure looks like that the smoke in the picture linked to in the OP is coming from inside Tower 2.

That is the result of the angle, distance, and foreshortening of the photo (which is why twoofers use it in the first place). The video shows otherwise.

[YCHTT]

No No No its thermite. Everytime I go into a building with light greyish/white smoke I always think Thermite. Not the pot of burnt chicken on the stove......Nay Nay! That was a thermite chicken :)

[leftysergeant]

Check and see if that chicken is Kosher. That could be significant...

[Cuddles]

this is definitely a sudden chemical reaction, producing a massive amount of white smoke.

A sudden chemical reaction such as, let's see, fire? As chemical reactions go, it's pretty famous for producing smoke.

[psyexplorer]

Could someone please tell me what Thermite looks like and what it would be stored in?

[Sabrina]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite

There you go psyexplorer. I'll see if I can locate a better link though; I'm not a big fan of Wikipedia. Too easy to screw things up in it.

[psyexplorer]

Thanks. Fascinating. I was reading about survivor stories the other day and saw this one. Thought you might be interested. Sorry it's so long but I don't want to get in trouble for sourcing it so I just copied it.

Towers OF Terror

As we approach the anniversary of the worst attack in American history, I feel the need to reflect back on the events of that day and how I managed to survive. I haven’t discussed it for the past six years so I thought that maybe it was time to try and share my thoughts once again. As I began to write this, I realized that if I were to share every detail that occurred during my egress, this story would be far longer than it already is. There were other stairwell changes that were required because of the building design, accesses during my journey that were only possible due to the actions of others prior to my arrival and sightings of firemen and others who are not relevant to my story. So I won’t bore you with all of the minute details. The media does enough of that for everyone. In addition, I am nobody. So what I was doing there and exactly where I was is unimportant. I just want to share my story.


It was 8:45 a.m. on the morning of September 11, 2001. I was in the north tower for a prearranged meeting. As far as I was concerned. It was an uneventful start to a normal day. I had wanted to eat at Windows On The World but it was a little too noisy for me. Some kind of conference. So I had come back down and was sitting in a chair staring out the window at the morning sky. I remember thinking about the stories I had read as a kid on skyscrapers and how dangerous it was for the workers. The winds were so strong that they could pick a man up and blow him away. Yet as I sat there some hundred floors up, I could not help but notice how serene it looked.


Did I notice the plane that eventually turned out to be Flight 11? Yes I did. Did I think anything was unusual? No I didn’t. I know the media is full of stories told by people who just knew something was wrong the moment they saw that plane. They are usually the same ones who knew the guy next door was a serial killer too. No the fact is that no one had a clue what was about to happen. Not even me. It was only as the plane drew closer to the building that I began to realize something was wrong. I got up and moved to the window, watching this object get larger on the skyline until eventually, it was as large as life. It’s funny how speed is a matter of perception. Whenever I see a video of the plane hitting that tower, it looks like it’s moving so slowly. Yet from my perspective, it appeared to move faster and faster the closer it got. Within the last few hundred yards, I was looking down at nothing more than a blur.


As the plane closed in I felt the building vibrate. I imagine it was the shockwave of air that preceded the actual impact. Almost like it was anticipating the hit and exploded just to get it out of the way. There was a howling whistle, then the plane struck the building. The floor beneath me shook . Actually, reverberated would be a more accurate description. Kind of like when you clip a baseball wrong with a metal bat. It vibrates, dissipates for a second and then comes back for one more round. I could feel the building swaying and the floor felt like it was buckling. Then suddenly a violent smoky fireball shot up in front of the glass Some of the panels cracked. I jumped back, startled at what I had seen. It was clear to me what had happened yet, it would not compute for a moment or two. The lights flickered then returned. As people began chattering and milling towards the windows, I was backing away. I was afraid the glass would shatter and I had no wish to be sucked out. As smoke obscured the windows, I finally began to hear people talking. They were discussing the possibility of an earthquake. Then someone who had seen what happened said a plane lost control and hit the building. I did not know exactly what was going on. All I knew was that the plane was definitely flying in a straight line.


The shock had finally worn off. I had to leave and now. I did not know what was going to happen, I only knew that whatever it was…it was going to be bad. I started to run to the stairwell. Then I stopped and turned around. No one was moving. Some were staring out the windows. Others were talking. Most in classic American style already had their cell phones out, wanting to be the first one who called 911. I yelled, “We need to get to the stairs!“ I began to hear people say, “Do you think we should?“ “Maybe we should wait.“ I just turned and kept going. As I reached the door, a man came through. Don’t know what he was doing in the stairwell. May have been security. Doesn’t really matter. Smoke burst into the hallway. He said, “Everything’s on fire.” I replied, “We have to get out of here now.” He coughed back, “We can‘t.”


By this time a few people had approached the stairs. I said to the man, “What do you mean we can‘t?” He replied, “The stairway’s blocked.” People began to gasp and chatter. I looked at him and asked, “What do you mean blocked? Is it damaged? Is it gone? How is it blocked?” He looked at me and said, “There’s nothing but smoke and fire down there.“ I said, “Smoke and fire doesn‘t necessarily mean it‘s impassable. Did you see any damage.” “I couldn‘t see anything.” he replied..


By this point the floor was filling with smoke. Someone ran up and said that people were injured by the elevators and smoke was coming in through the every door vent. I turned and said, “Smoke travels up and fire travels up and down. We have to go now. Get something to cover your faces.“ Then I heard glass crashing. They were breaking windows to let air in. They had just exasperated the problem. Then a lady says, “He said the stairwell is blocked.“ Then others began to chatter. “Yeah, we can’t get through.“ “We should wait.” “Maybe we should go up to the roof. They’ll rescue us” There was no point in arguing and there was no more time. I looked at everyone and said, “I’m going….now. And I’m not waiting for you. If I’m not back in ten minutes, that means the stairwell is passable. If it is I would highly suggest you leave.” The man grabbed my sleeve and said, “I can’t let you go down there. It’s too dangerous.“ I leaned over and said, “Let go of me or smoke inhalation will be the least of your worries.“ On that note, I covered my face with my jacket and left.


The stairwell was filled with hot black and grey smoke. Not a regular smoke either. More like a dusty one. I could hear fires burning below. It smelled kind of like the old furnace we had in my childhood home. I had no idea what jet fuel smelled like but I assumed that‘s what it was. Those fires, however, would be getting worse very soon since they had broken the windows on the floors above. As I passed the 97th floor, the heat became incredible. There were intermittent shudders as if the building were straining under it’s own weight. To be truthful, I expected there to be far more fire than I encountered. I guess in the initial minutes that had passed, the majority of the fuel had burned off leaving only the building to consume itself. The sprinklers did not appear to be working. It was at this point of the journey downward where I had the most trouble breathing. The smoke was worse yes, but it felt as if I couldn’t get any air in my lungs no matter how hard I tried.


When I reached the 95th floor, the situation became even more desperate. One side of the stairwell wall was gone and the other was crumbling. The superstructure was exposed. I was being hit with a hot vacuum like wind that agitated the smoke into a swirling frenzy. It was surreal. The portion of the stairs that remained were minimal and treacherous. They were approximately eight inches wide and several steps deep, running along one edge of the wall. It was like something you’d see in a Hollywood movie. I knew if there was any chance that was it. Holding onto the railing, I slowly inched my way step by step, until I finally cleared the gap. That was, unfortunately, not the only hurdle to overcome. There was another such precipice on what was either the 93rd or 92nd floor. The only part of the stairwell left there was the railing itself. I grappled for dear life as my leather soled shoes slipped on the railing. The smoke was thick and I gasped for every breath. I had to keep going. I could not see very much from the 97th to the 92nd floors other than there wasn‘t much left. I expected to see the hulking remains of a plane somewhere. There was nothing but twisted metal and concrete. What I did see made me wonder how many people had died and worse yet, what was holding the building up. One thing was certain. I did not have much time. An eternity later I was safe on the next landing. I knew it had been at least ten minutes since I left the others. I said to myself, “Well it ain’t sexy but it’s passable. I hope they‘re coming” I knew that not everyone would be able to cross, but I did hope they would at least try. I knew they wouldn’t though. Sadly people don’t lead, they follow. Unfortunately, it was apparent the mob mentality had taken over and without direction, all would be lost.


Once I had cleared the 91st floor, things got a little bit easier. I say that meaning I wasn’t having to Indiana Jones it anymore. The temperature was lower. The smoke, however, was still thick and breathing was difficult. Dangerous chunks of steel and metal were falling down the stairwell. Smoke was continuing to rise from below me as I descended. Fire was coming out of doors that looked like they had been blown off the hinges. I stayed as far against the wall as I could. Fortunately for me, I regularly ran marathons, so I was able to traverse the floors very quickly. As I descended, I was surprised that the stairwell was devoid of people. I couldn’t imagine why no one was using it. I had started down late though. Someone had to have survived. They were probably ahead of me. I continued running as fast as I could. I wasn’t keeping track of the floors I was passing. Several floors down, I finally saw another human being. A man in his 40s. He was dead but didn‘t appear to have any injuries. I assumed he died from smoke inhalation or a heart attack. I noticed a cellular phone on his belt. I did not have mine with me that day. I took it just in case then continued on.


I switched staircases at the 44th floor sky lobby. This one was not as dangerous as the one I had left, but it was dangerous nonetheless. Although safer, the smoke was beginning to overcome me. I couldn’t go on the way I was. My jacket was dirty, soaking wet and impossible to breathe through anymore. I had to find something to help me continue. I had not come this far to die now. A floor or two down from the lobby, The air quality was better so I decided this would be a good place to stop. I came across a door that was open. It led into what looked like a huge equipment room. I only had moments before I needed to move on. Feverishly I searched, looking for anything that I could use. There was various equipment, some boxes, a few 50 gallon drums. Nothing useful. Then I found it. A discarded paper mask that a drywall guy would use. The elastic band was snapped off. I looked over by the drums and noticed a piece of electronic equipment on the column. There were several of them around the room, but this one was different. I guess the block of grey epoxy they used to put it there didn’t stick right so they had duct taped it to the post. I pulled it down, removed the tape and used it to hold the mask on. Ready to go I continued on.


As I re-entered the stairwell, I couldn’t help but wonder how there could still be any smoke. No fire mind you, smoke coming from below. I would soon find out what happened in the lobby. I continued my rapid descent. Some floors had smoke coming out of them, some did not. Then the building began to shake violently again. I actually slipped and fell as it tossed me around. Outside the south tower had just fallen. The lights went out. I got back up. Now I was in a panic. I couldn’t see a damn thing. Then the emergency lights came on. I ran down those stairs, two or three at a time. The building was creaking and moaning. I have never heard anything like that before. I was certain it would come down any minute.


As I approached the lower floors I finally encountered people who were still evacuating. I guess I had caught up with them. We continued down, but the progression had slowed. As we came closer to the lobby level, the smoke became choking. The sprinklers were operating on the lower levels but it was more like a flood than a sprinkle. The water pooled ankle deep at some points. As we exited the stairwell, the scene was unbelievable. The beautiful lobby I had entered through had become a war zone. All the glass had been blown out, there was debris everywhere and other things I won’t mention. I could barely see. The air was filled with choking dust that had settled on the floor several inches deep. The others stopped for a moment like they were on a sight seeing tour. I did not care. I followed a fireman and ran as fast as I could out of the building. I don’t even know what street I came out on. When I reached the outside there was pandemonium. Then I realized the other tower was gone. I immediately began running as fast and as far away from there as I possibly could.


The thing I did notice was the people. As I moved away, they were coming closer. Like some sick voyeurs coming to see the bodies. I was on the side of the WTC that was very open. Based on where I was. I only knew one thing for sure. When that second one came down, the fallout would follow the path of least resistance and they would more than likely be killed. But to be honest, their stupidity was not my problem. I was done trying to help people. So I continued to run. I put as much distance between myself and that building as was humanly possible. As I learned later that area has been nicknamed the black zone. The majority of the second collapse spilled into that corridor, killing most of the people there.


I never saw the second tower collapse. I only heard and felt it. Even then, I kept running. I covered a little over a mile before I finally collapsed. I fell to my knees and threw up. But even as the brown bile spilled from my burning throat, all I cared about was the fact I was alive.


I somehow managed to get a cab if you can believe that. All I wanted to do was go home. Fortunately I didn’t have to cross any bridges. As the taxi took me on the best ride I had ever been on. I heard a phone ring. I looked down and realized it was the phone I had taken off the stranger in the stairwell. I don’t know why but I answered it. “Xxx. Are you there? Oh my God are you alright? I just saw the news. Hello? Xxx?” I couldn’t say anything. I just pressed the end button and turned it off.

[contra]

So... the people using the thermite... considering downtown mantattan was pretty much corned off, with the media everywhere... how did they get out of there in time? Not to mention get rid of all the stuff? And all the people in the lobby not seeing this happening...

Then the small matter as someone else pointed out, that they are surring the bottom for a collapse that starts at the top...
hmmm...

strange....

[Sabrina]

psyexplorer, we actually prefer that you give us the links versus potentially violating copyright laws by posting the entirety of an article here; it's one of the rules of the forum. Please edit your post to include the link and delete most of what you've copied so that you don't get a warning from a moderator, if you don't mind.

[Newtons Bit]

psyexplorer, we actually prefer that you give us the links versus potentially violating copyright laws by posting the entirety of an article here; it's one of the rules of the forum. Please edit your post to include the link and delete most of what you've copied so that you don't get a warning from a moderator, if you don't mind.

nark!

[psyexplorer]

The forum rules say I can't link for 50 posts so by doing that I would be breaking the rules. Tricking the newb huh?

[Sabrina]

No, what you do is you provide the link with spaces (w w w. this is a link. org for example) and we can take out the spaces and enter it in ourselves.

[DGM]

The forum rules say I can't link for 50 posts so by doing that I would be breaking the rules. Tricking the newb huh?
No, use spaces and one of us will fix it.

ETA ; Welcome to the forum

[Bell]

HOLY CRAP! :eek:

What a story! If it is true, then wow, he survived from Tower 1 from above the impact area! How must he have felt, when learning (and seeing) the fate of all the others.

[~enigma~]

The forum rules say I can't link for 50 posts so by doing that I would be breaking the rules. Tricking the newb huh?
You can post links after 15 posts. 50 posts is what you need to use an avatar and signature. Post your links.

[DGM]

HOLY CRAP! :eek:

What a story! If it is true, then wow, he survived from Tower 1 from above the impact area! How must he have felt, when learning (and seeing) the fate of all the others.
I know, I wasn't aware of any survivors above the impact zone.

[Timothy]

White smoke does not mean thermite.

White smoke means they've elected a new Pope.

[psyexplorer]

:)

[DGM]

:)
Can you source that story for us or did you make it up?

[YCHTT]

Check and see if that chicken is Kosher. That could be significant...

Yeah, Kosher thermite chickens burn longer and make more smoke. :D:D:D

[YCHTT]

White smoke does not mean thermite.

White smoke means they've elected a new Pope.

ROFLMAO!!!!! SO FUNNY! AND TRUE!

[psyexplorer]

If I did I would get in trouble with the MODs.

[Bell]

If I did I would get in trouble with the MODs.

No, you wouldn't ;)

It's not forbidden to post URLs, you are only not able to do so. This is to prevent people singing up and immediatly posting OMYGOSH!!!FREE PORN!!!HERE!! (http://www.google.com/)


ETA: This is how HereticHulk posted a link when he was just new:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2966748&postcount=36

And this is how I changed that for him:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2966763&postcount=37

HereticHulk never got a warning for that.

[DGM]

If I did I would get in trouble with the MODs.
You are not being tricked. Just use spaces instead of dots. I will fix the link and repost it for you.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Interesting...

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22It+was+8:45+a.m.+on+the+morning+of+Sep tember+11,+2001.%22&hl=en&safe=off&filter=0

This Google search on the first sentence of the second paragraph only turns up two hits: one from Above Top Secret, the other from LibertyForum. Both posted yesterday by psyexplorer.

On ATS, a mod closed the thread until psyexplorer provides a source. On LF, psyexplorer outright refuses to source the story, claiming that he would be called a troll if he did so.

Nevertheless, thanks to a post psyexplorer made on The Skeptical Community forum back in April (here (http://www.skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=283032&highlight=#283032)), I seem to have found the [Internet] source of the story: http://www.thefinalchallenge.com/index_018.htm

It's a submission to the site's "FC Awards" challenge, worth $50,000. The offcial rules (http://www.thefinalchallenge.com/fc_awards_official_rules.pdf) (PDF) are somewhat vague, but one of the guidelines is:

Your submission(s) may:

* Recount events of strife that occurred as a result of the paranormal, governmental or law enforcement failures


This seems to imply that the story should be true, but it's not explicitly stated.

That's all I've got.

[GT/CS]

A sudden chemical reaction such as, let's see, fire? As chemical reactions go, it's pretty famous for producing smoke.

Originally Posted by GT/CS
this is definitely a sudden chemical reaction, producing a massive amount of white smoke.

Please be more careful when you cut and paste parts of posts. This makes it look like I am the author of the above quote. I understand that it is not within quotation marks so it's not really a quote but it still looks I'm the person who made the ridiculous statement.

Thank you

[psyexplorer]

WTF? I didn't say it, Nobody heard me, You can't prove anything.

Seriously though, see what happened at Top Secret? They locked me out of the forum and then closed the thread. That was I might add after I was stupid enough to give the link to someone via PM..who then reported me to a MOD. They do advertise on C2C who I think wants to talk about things but not really uncover the truth. Makes sense their thinking would be the same. I got a warning over at SC after I posted the thread and haven't been back..:catfight:

I really just thought it was cool like the puppy story

[DGM]

WTF? I didn't say it, Nobody heard me, You can't prove anything.

Seriously though, see what happened at Top Secret? They locked me out of the forum and then closed the thread. That was I might add after I was stupid enough to give the link to someone via PM..who then reported me to a MOD. They do advertise on C2C who I think wants to talk about things but not really uncover the truth. Makes sense their thinking would be the same. I got a warning over at SC after I posted the thread and haven't been back..:catfight:

I really just thought it was cool like the puppy story
The interesting thing is the story will not be accepted as truth here because this site is for skeptical thinking. Without documentation it's fiction and nothing else. So if you know the author it's up to you if you want to reveal it, just don't use the story as fact.

Any who, Welcome to the forum.

[psyexplorer]

I don't know. You'd have to ask them. You ought to take at look at some of the editorials though.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I like it as a story, but since it's part of a challenge-for-money with somewhat loose rules, I, personally, can't accept it as truth at the moment.

Nothing personal. ;)

[OldTigerCub]

Exactly. They somehow find it perfectly normal, that the bad guys would start a thermite reaction in the basement of a tower a few minutes before the building collapses from the top down.

This is one of the stupidest theories ever. Has always been.

Only the NWO Jihadist Suicide Thermite-in-the-basement Demolition Brigade could be responsible. Too bad "The Cat" knocked them off, or we could ask how they did it.:rolleyes:

[DGM]

I don't know. You'd have to ask them. You ought to take at look at some of the editorials though.
You know what I'm saying though. No matter how compelling the story, anonymous is not going to fly as fact and if it's used as such it will be rejected as fiction. Documenting your evidence is held in high regard here.

[Sabrina]

Given that every source I've seen up until now says that no one survived above the impact zone in the North Tower, I am highly skeptical of that story, and would greatly appreciate a link to where it can be found or knowledge of who authored it. Thank you.

[Bell]

Given that every source I've seen up until now says that no one survived above the impact zone in the North Tower, I am highly skeptical of that story, and would greatly appreciate a link to where it can be found or knowledge of who authored it. Thank you.

That's what I thought when reading how the writer said he settled down somewhere on the 100th floor. In the back of my head, a voice constantly said "Wait for the punchline! Wait for the punchline!"

[OldTigerCub]

Given that every source I've seen up until now says that no one survived above the impact zone in the North Tower, I am highly skeptical of that story, and would greatly appreciate a link to where it can be found or knowledge of who authored it. Thank you.



That's what I thought when reading how the writer said he settled down somewhere on the 100th floor. In the back of my head, a voice constantly said "Wait for the punchline! Wait for the punchline!"

My first thoughts were that this story looks like something you might find at an aspiring writers' archive. The writer does sound credible by some accounts, but seems to be trying a bit too hard to make the reader visualize the scene. An interesting piece of fiction at least, though without a named source, I wonder if one might find that it was written as a high school project with a title like "What it might have been like to be the lone survivor".

[Cl1mh4224rd]

*ahem*

http://www.thefinalchallenge.com/index_018.htm

It's a submission to the site's "FC Awards" challenge, worth $50,000. The offcial rules (http://www.thefinalchallenge.com/fc_awards_official_rules.pdf) (PDF) are somewhat vague, but one of the guidelines is:

Your submission(s) may:

* Recount events of strife that occurred as a result of the paranormal, governmental or law enforcement failures


This seems to imply that the story should be true, but it's not explicitly stated.

That's all I've got.

[psyexplorer]

Lots of good points. Here's my thoughts (if anyone's interested).

It's a submission to the site's "FC Awards" challenge, worth $50,000. The offcial rules (PDF) are somewhat vague, but one of the guidelines is:
Your submission(s) may:
* Recount events of strife that occurred as a result of the paranormal, governmental or law enforcement failures
The rules seem pretty clear to me. I think they are more concerned about the 'May Not' section. There are a lot of whackos who would suggest assasinating people if they think they could get a podium. Wouldn't want the secret service to come knocking. I'm sure the site is watched.

The writer does sound credible by some accounts, but seems to be trying a bit too hard to make the reader visualize the scene.
The rules do say the entries will be judged on style, content, orginality, articulation and clarity of exprerssion. That could explain it. Also I sensed an undertone of abhorrence for the beahivior of the other people. in fact I was unsettled because the description of human behavior was so dead on.

That's what I thought when reading how the writer said he settled down somewhere on the 100th floor. In the back of my head, a voice constantly said "Wait for the punchline! Wait for the punchline!"
So did I but it never came.

You know what I'm saying though. No matter how compelling the story, anonymous is not going to fly as fact and if it's used as such it will be rejected as fiction.
Maybe they're not a glory hound. They said they never talked about it for six years. They did make reference to the media. Maybe they did at the time but the story was buried. It does make sense. Admitting they're wrong is not something the media does often. Besides, death sells, hope doesn't. What's more tragic, everyone wanting to get out but can't or everyone could have gotten out but chose not to? We all know the latter doesn't make the typical American look very good. In fact it makes them look like idiots who refuse to take initiative. Not to mention they wouldn't look quite as helpless as they were made out to be.

I must admit this story intrigued me for more than one reason. I do feel a sense of connection because I was there that day. I also have not talked about it. It's not like I have some incredible story. I don't but I do relate to some of the feelings they had.

I like it as a story, but since it's part of a challenge-for-money with somewhat loose rules, I, personally, can't accept it as truth at the moment.
Once again I doubt anyone would post the story proof or not. In fact, that site may be the only ones who would. If you read some of the editorials and past stories, it is clear they couldn't care less about political correctness. They don't seem to be afraid of the MIBs either (I ought to start a thread on that). There is of course one other possibility. Is it possible that they have suffered some sort of health issues and need the money?

[Shrinker]

Psyexplorer, welcome to the forum.

Amateur writers are taught that research is everything. Unfortunately though, thorough research can be difficult for amateurs, either because they're busy with other employment, trying to beat short competition deadlines, or they simply don't know how to go about it. This can lead to some writers being overly defensive of their lack of detailed knowledge and so they will invent excuses that they mistakenly believe are quite clever and original. The excuse may be that the author is recounting another person's story, where the other person frustratingly glosses over the details or they may claim fuzzy memories induced by the traumatic events, (ie 'it all seems like a blur now' reflecting their extremely fuzzy grasp of their own story world). Sometimes they may claim to be deliberately leaving out the details in order to keep the story moving. If they want to keep the story moving, why stop to tell us that they are doing so?

I mention this only because it's what came to mind as I read the first paragraph of the story. It doesn't prove anything, but I thought you might be interested.

[DGM]

Maybe they're not a glory hound. They said they never talked about it for six years. They did make reference to the media. Maybe they did at the time but the story was buried. It does make sense. Admitting they're wrong is not something the media does often. Besides, death sells, hope doesn't. What's more tragic, everyone wanting to get out but can't or everyone could have gotten out but chose not to? We all know the latter doesn't make the typical American look very good. In fact it makes them look like idiots who refuse to take initiative. Not to mention they wouldn't look quite as helpless as they were made out to be.

The lone survivor story buried by the American media? Have you ever watched the news? They would be all over this story like stink on [rule10]. MSM will report anything that will make money. This story would be gold, there would be books, made for cable movies all leading up to the blockbuster theater release.

I must admit this story intrigued me for more than one reason. I do feel a sense of connection because I was there that day. I also have not talked about it. It's not like I have some incredible story. I don't but I do relate to some of the feelings they had.

We all have different feelings about the day. For most of us here researching the subject and debunking the lies is our way of closure, I'm sure you'll find yours.

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I think the color has to do with the direction of the light.

If you watch an oil fire at some stages, when it is producing little smoke, or the smoke is being dispersed, it looks brown from one side, blue from the other. Rarely is it totally black, unless it is extremely dense.

I am in total agreement with LeftySergeant on this. We don't even need to get into the fine detail with this one because the smoke simply isn't white. You can clearly see where the smoke is issuing from that it's a dark, dirty grey colour - the strong sunlight passing through it as it's diffusing makes it appear bright white.

Nothing left to argue.

[Dave Rogers]

I am in total agreement with LeftySergeant on this. We don't even need to get into the fine detail with this one because the smoke simply isn't white. You can clearly see where the smoke is issuing from that it's a dark, dirty grey colour - the strong sunlight passing through it as it's diffusing makes it appear bright white.

However, as I pointed out on this forum some time ago, if white smoke indicates a thermite fire and black smoke indicates an oxygen starved fire, clearly grey smoke comes from an oxygen starved thermite fire.

Dave

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

However, as I pointed out on this forum some time ago, if white smoke indicates a thermite fire and black smoke indicates an oxygen starved fire, clearly grey smoke comes from an oxygen starved thermite fire.

Dave

Oh crikey! Grey smoke = an oxygen starved thermite fire?! That must mean that the majority of the things I have seen burning in my life have all been made out of thermite! And every location I have seen these things burning in must have been oxygen starved!

I'm now seriously worried because I didn't realise oxygen was in such short supply. But that said; what a useful substance thermite is; you can make houses, cardboard boxes, wood, coal and allsorts out of it!

:rolleyes: Incredible! It wouldn't suprise me if that has come up as CT evidence, Dave.

[Bell]

Oh crikey! Grey smoke = an oxygen starved thermite fire?! That must mean that the majority of the things I have seen burning in my life have all been made out of thermite! And every location I have seen these things burning in must have been oxygen starved!

I'm now seriously worried because I didn't realise oxygen was in such short supply. But that said; what a useful substance thermite is; you can make houses, cardboard boxes, wood, coal and allsorts out of it!

:rolleyes: Incredible!

Dave was being sarcastic :)

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Apologies; I knew he was being sarcastic - I was playing along! I'll try to be less ambiguous in future! :o

[Bell]

Apologies; I knew he was being sarcastic - I was playing along! I'll try to be less ambiguous in future! :o

Oops! Joke is on me! :covereyes

[Dave Rogers]

Actually, since the thermite reaction doesn't require any external source of oxygen...

Dave

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Oops! Joke is on me! :covereyes

Consider it on both of us! :D

[Sabrina]

psyexplorer, if you want to read some amazing stories of survival, I'd suggest 102 Minutes. It's full of survival stories from people who both survived and did not survive the planes hitting the towers and their subsequent collapse. The ones that did not survive; their stories typically come from the ones who did. The book is extremely moving and compelling; I highly recommend it.

I will admit that the story you posted was pretty powerful, but I have difficulty giving it much credence since, as I've stated, every source I've ever located said no one ABOVE the impact zone in the North Tower survived that day. All indications say that all three stairwells were struck and destroyed when the plane hit pretty much dead center on the building. If this had been an account of someone in the SOUTH Tower, I'd find it much more credible; eyewitnesses say that they were able to navigate one stairwell there due to the fact that the plane did NOT hit head on; it hit the tower more at an angle and therefore mostly avoided one of the stairwells. The names of the people who were above the impact zone in the North Tower were available to investigators, and none of them have, to my knowledge, been found alive. I would certainly love to hear that this had happened (more because it would mean someone had survived above that impact zone than because I like reading how idiotic it's possible for some people to be; I would never in a million years argue that they couldn't be as stupid as portrayed in that story) but until this person steps forward and proves their existence and that they did in fact work in the North Tower ABOVE the impact zone that day, I'm afraid I'll have to view that as a powerful bit of fiction, no more.

That being said, I do agree with you that the story is powerful, and certainly would be highly compelling if it turned out to be true. I just don't see how it could be is all; sorry. :)

[psyexplorer]

Psyexplorer, welcome to the forum.

Amateur writers are taught that research is everything. Unfortunately though, thorough research can be difficult for amateurs, either because they're busy with other employment, trying to beat short competition deadlines, or they simply don't know how to go about it. This can lead to some writers being overly defensive of their lack of detailed knowledge and so they will invent excuses that they mistakenly believe are quite clever and original. The excuse may be that the author is recounting another person's story, where the other person frustratingly glosses over the details or they may claim fuzzy memories induced by the traumatic events, (ie 'it all seems like a blur now' reflecting their extremely fuzzy grasp of their own story world). Sometimes they may claim to be deliberately leaving out the details in order to keep the story moving. If they want to keep the story moving, why stop to tell us that they are doing so?

I mention this only because it's what came to mind as I read the first paragraph of the story. It doesn't prove anything, but I thought you might be interested.

you have some interesting points. I think part of the detail thing has to do with the fact people are idiots. It's a no win situation. If you explain the details everyone says you're anal. If you leave any out but don't say why, they claim you're being evasive or vague. I showed this story to a lot of people after I found it. I said hey take a look at this story I found. Almost every one of them apologized to me for my trauma. It's like they're morons or something. I think a lot of the points in the story are addressed so well because of the disdain they had for people.

[MaGZ]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but has this picture of smoke coming from one of the towers just before it collapsed been discussed here?

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5276/screenhunter057jk0.jpg

LCF thinks it's from the thermite.

Dylan Avery; Badmachine, I'm going to have to agree with you that this is undeniable proof that the fires alone were not responsible for the collapse. I've been going through alot of footage, particularly this one NBC shot, and this is definitely a sudden chemical reaction, producing a massive amount of white smoke.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12576

My guess is another explosion from the service elevator in WTC 2 that happened immediately after the second impact.

[GT/CS]

My guess is another explosion from the service elevator in WTC 2 that happened immediately after the second impact.

So you don't agree that the video shows it to be a burning car?

[LashL]

Psyexplorer, welcome.

I have to say that I am not at all inclined to take the story that you posted at face value. To me, it sounds contrived, inconsistent with known facts, and manufactured for the sole purpose of drama.

Add in the anonymity of the alleged storyteller, the complete lack of corroboration for any factual element of the story, and the fact that it surfaced for the first time on a dodgy website seeking storytelling rather than facts or evidence, well, colour me skeptical, but I call BS.

[NYCEMT86]

Badmachine, I'm going to have to agree with you that this is undeniable proof that the fires alone were not responsible for the collapse. I've been going through alot of footage, particularly this one NBC shot, and this is definitely a sudden chemical reaction, producing a massive amount of white smoke.

Uhhhh........Uhhhh.....

Poor Dylan, he should realize that Fire is a sudden chemical reaction that produces a massive amount of smoke


:mgbanghead

I am thinking Dylan and Co. should really just stick to the game Clue if they want to play Jr. Detectives.

It was Cheney, in the east wing, with remote ultra-uber-nano-thermite detonator....LULZ!

[psyexplorer]

I thought it was a Thermite chicken?