Don't Tase Me, Bro

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

I tried searching, but haven't found it here yet... I'm sure it's already been posted, so if I'm missing it, please correct me.

So it turns out that "Don't Tase Me Bro™" guy is a full blown truther... Or at least a Zeitgeist fan.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2007/09/tased-florida-student-was-troofer.html

Yet more pruth™ that truthers need to be medicated.

[Denial]

According to his home page, Zeitgeist is the "best movie I've ever seen".

http://www.theandrewmeyer.com/reviews.asp

The tasing is being discussed here:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=93699

[Unsecured Coins]

ya know what's funny about watching someone get tasered?


everything.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

ya know what's funny about watching someone get tasered?


everything.


There's a clip of some lady who got tased for refusing to get out of her car (after being pulled over for going 70 in a school zone or some such nonsense, driving an unregistered car, with no insurance, and a suspended driver's license) She got tased for a split second and screamed and cried for 10 minutes.

At one point the cop says to her, deadpan, "Come on it doesn't hurt that much, we've been tased more than that during training."

[Unsecured Coins]

There's a clip of some lady who got tased for refusing to get out of her car (after being pulled over for going 70 in a school zone or some such nonsense, driving an unregistered car, with no insurance, and a suspended driver's license) She got tased for a split second and screamed and cried for 10 minutes.

At one point the cop says to her, deadpan, "Come on it doesn't hurt that much, we've been tased more than that during training."

Come on, man!! if there is a video of someone getting tased, I have it book marked already! Give me SOME credit

[Alferd_Packer]

T-shir,t now available. http://images.cafepress.com/product/171381558v4_240x240_Front.jpg

http://www.cafepress.com/bobmccarty.171381558

[sts60]

ya know what's funny about watching someone get tasered?

everything.
Except when it's the shirtless, handcuffed 350-lb guy you are about to load up and transport to the hospital. Juiced up with meth and PCP, lying there with about five Taser darts in him, and additional therapy applied simultaneously via Asp and stun gun. I actually kinda felt sorry for him by the time our law enforcement friends discharged all the batteries on their Tasers. But after they were done, at least they were there to lift him. :D

[Unsecured Coins]

Except when it's the shirtless, handcuffed 350-lb guy you are about to load up and transport to the hospital. Juiced up with meth and PCP, lying there with about five Taser darts in him, and additional therapy applied simultaneously via Asp and stun gun. I actually kinda felt sorry for him by the time our law enforcement friends discharged all the batteries on their Tasers. But after they were done, at least they were there to lift him. :D


You're right. That isn't funny.


That... is hysterical

[NYCEMT86]

ya know what's funny about watching someone get tasered?


everything.

I for one, vote that you should include a clip of this kid getting tazed for your next video. :D

[Unsecured Coins]

I for one, vote that you should include a clip of this kid getting tazed for your next video. :D


I will make it so

[Smiledriver]

I find it unfortunate that there are two posts here about this incident and one is extremely critical of the police the other is not. Indeed, we seem to now find it amusing because the American citizen being violently repressed by the arm of the state thinks that there is a conspiracy at the heart of the Sept. 11 attacks. Two unrelated matters at best.

So now the question: Why is your democracy crumbling around you?

Oh, and I think the events on Sept. 11 happened pretty much the way they have been reported in mainstream media. So, don't taze me, bro.

[scissorhands]

Help me, help me.
Dont taze me.
Ow, ow, owwww.

What a big girls blouse he was.

:)

[maxpower1227]

So now the question: Why is your democracy crumbling around you?

See my response in the other thread on this subject

[60hzxtl]

Performance Art!

Ya gotta love it!

[this charming man]

So now the question: Why is your democracy crumbling around you?


Non sequitur.

It is my understanding that this student was disruptive, and he refused to comply with the officers' requests. He could have easily avoided this mess if he simply allowed himself to be escorted away from the mic.

He is also, apparently, an attention whore. He acts out purposely to draw attention to himself. It is my guess that this is exactly what he wanted to happen. There is more than one side to this story; just because the government used force against him does not mean they were wrong to do so.

I am a big supporter of freedom of speech and individual rights; however, when one if forcibly resisting an officer, one should expect force to be used against him or her.

[bjb]

I see an American citizen who was acting like a lunatic and refusing to follow orders from a police officer. He gave the police no choice but to taze him.

I have to add that I have a mentally ill person in my family who once dared the cops to shoot him, but fortunately, they tazed him instead. I watched the video and this is the sort of thing he would have done in his manic phase. When someone disobeys an order from the cops, there is a very real chance the person is sick or on drugs. Tazing them is the best option. If I were the cops, I'd do the same thing rather than risk my life by trying to subdue him physically.

[cloudshipsrule]

So now the question: Why is your democracy crumbling around you?

You really want to know? It's because of idiots exactly like that kid who have no respect for anyone except themselves. The kid and his roommates planned the ordeal as a publicity stunt. The kid had acted the same way in previous public 'forums'. The kid's roommates had the video on the web within minutes of it happening. T-shirts are for sale already.

In a decent society people would respect one another, not purposely cause trouble like this kid did, and no-one would have to be tased in the first place.

[SDC]

I find it unfortunate that there are two posts here about this incident and one is extremely critical of the police the other is not. Indeed, we seem to now find it amusing because the American citizen being violently repressed by the arm of the state thinks that there is a conspiracy at the heart of the Sept. 11 attacks. Two unrelated matters at best.

So now the question: Why is your democracy crumbling around you?

Oh, and I think the events on Sept. 11 happened pretty much the way they have been reported in mainstream media. So, don't taze me, bro.

You are right, or at least I agree with you (a different matter) in some respects. It's not funny. But here are some real-world points I'd like to raise.

When I was a young sprat, my parents and teachers and other adults responsible for my upbringing dandled me on their knees and said, "Don't give lip to people with sticks, guns, and tasers which haven't been invented yet, especially if they are wearing uniforms and represent popularly recognized authority. And don't resist their immediate commands, as well. Not unless you want to get your butt kicked." For which wisdom I'm suitably grateful, because otherwise I'd have had my butt kicked more often, and what is the point of that? Now I'm an older gent, with a teenager of my own, and you know what? This wisdom seems ever wiser as a result. If you want to protest, do it calmly and peacefully.

This was a rowdy young guy, giving grief to a lot of others (not just the police, or Kerry, but it seems the crowd), and refusing to back down. Obviously his parents, etc., didn't teach him well. Can you say common sense?

Democracy crumbling... Where were you in the 1950s? I can remember (as a child) the freedom riders (in my case, rte 40 West in Maryland). I can remember black people often being denied the vote. I can remember (minority group of your choosing) receiving seriously bad treatment.

When I was a kid, about 10 times as many civilians were shot and killed by police, as happens now. True in NYC, where I now live, and I assume similar numbers elsewhere. Can you say Bull Connor? Just died. Lost his job decades ago.

When I was a kid, dissenters on a large scale lost jobs -- or never got them. Oh heck, there are any number of things like this. This is a much more effectively democratic polity and society than I grew up in. (I can remember when anti-Jewish, Italian, Polish... slurs and actions were not on the fringe, but in daily and loud usage by the "majority.")

I see you are from Canada. I hope you are not one of those self-righteous "thank god we aren't Yanks, we are sooooooo much better" types.

Here is a favorite factoid of mine. What was the first major political unit in the English-speaking world to ban capital punishment, and why? Major political unit defined as large enough to be authorized to take such a step. Answer: the state of Michigan, where I have spent much of my adult life, banned it -- in the state constitution -- ca.1840. Why? Best judgement is that it was a time of heavy Irish immigration, to what became Ontario and what was already Michigan, as well as elsewhere. The Michiganders -- living in and around Detroit -- were sickened by the English-speaking rulers over in Windsor, hanging Irish "felons" wholesale.

There. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to say that. I've wanted to say that to a Canadian, or a British individual, for some time.

Sorry for the heat. It's a long day tied to the terminal.

[Wartrac]

This isn't anything more than some snot nosed kid that didn't get enough attention or was forced to play right field in little league.

There is no police state, there is no loss of liberty here. He was asked to leave he didn't so they "helped him". I've been zapped myself, it's not that bad. Frankly I would rather that that a face full of CS......shudders at memories of the gas chamber in Basic.:boxedin:

If this was a "Police State" they wouldn't have asked nicely like 12312310985423 times. They would have knocked his *** out and dragged him out of there.

[Smiledriver]

Non sequitur...hardly. To condone the suppression of those who don't believe what you believe is intolerant. Tolerance is a necessary feature of a thriving democracy.

Further, to simply comply with police when no crime has been commited is in no way required of an American citizen. Why should you? If the police don't protect you than what good are they? Who were they protecting? Kerry?

Being an attention whore, a rabble rouser, or whatever is not a crime...it does not cause harm to anyone...no matter how annoying.

One of you was hauled off and violently attacked by civil servants in your employ for commiting no crime and people find it entertaining. Better get scared.

[GreNME]

You're right. That isn't funny.


That... is hysterical

I am intrigued by what you have to say, and would like to subscribe to the newsletter.

[SDC]

Non sequitur...hardly. To condone the suppression of those who don't believe what you believe is intolerant. Tolerance is a necessary feature of a thriving democracy.

Further, to simply comply with police when no crime has been commited is in no way required of an American citizen. Why should you? If the police don't protect you than what good are they? Who were they protecting? Kerry?

Being an attention whore, a rabble rouser, or whatever is not a crime...it does not cause harm to anyone...no matter how annoying.

One of you was hauled off and violently attacked by civil servants in your employ for commiting no crime and people find it entertaining. Better get scared.

Oh come on, this was not freedom of speech, this was bad behavior. Disorderly conduct. Tell you what: I don't know Calgary, but I've often been in Toronto, Windsor, London and Stratford (all Ont). You go behave like that at a political event in one of those cities. Let's see what either the local cops or the OPP do. (Heck, when they taser you, they'll probably say, "Damned Yank.")

[Smiledriver]

SDC, I am actually have a very high opinion of the American Republic and a dim view of the "liberal democracy" in name only we have in Canada. That is why I when I see American's forgeting the basic freedoms they enjoy, nay died for it upsets me. You have the best chance in the world for social justice, you just have to make you leaders give it to you. Don't let the fact that your fellow citizens sometimes say stuff that makes you mad make you lose sight of this.

[cloudshipsrule]

To condone the suppression of those who don't believe what you believe is intolerant. Tolerance is a necessary feature of a thriving democracy.

What transpired and the statement above are two mutually exclusive things. He was not suppressed for something he believed. He was suppressed for refusing to obey officers of the law. He brought it on himself.

[Gravy]

ya know what's funny about watching someone get tasered?

everything.

A different perspective: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2977030&postcount=117

[this charming man]

Non sequitur...hardly. To condone the suppression of those who don't believe what you believe is intolerant. Tolerance is a necessary feature of a thriving democracy.

Further, to simply comply with police when no crime has been commited is in no way required of an American citizen. Why should you? If the police don't protect you than what good are they? Who were they protecting? Kerry?

Being an attention whore, a rabble rouser, or whatever is not a crime...it does not cause harm to anyone...no matter how annoying.

One of you was hauled off and violently attacked by civil servants in your employ for commiting no crime and people find it entertaining. Better get scared.


This is not an instance of suppressing a dissident; this is simply taking care of a disorderly individual. He charged to the front of the queue to shout his questions; one of which was an inquiry regarding the Skull and Bones Club. He also acted out and was disorderly. If he was patient and posed his questions in an adult manner, this would not have happened. He was not punished for having opposing beliefs, he was being disorderly and he refused to follow an officer of the law's requests.

Therefore, your comment, which I quoted, is non sequitur; it does not follow what happend at the assembly.

[dudalb]

Non sequitur...hardly. To condone the suppression of those who don't believe what you believe is intolerant. Tolerance is a necessary feature of a thriving democracy.

Further, to simply comply with police when no crime has been commited is in no way required of an American citizen. Why should you? If the police don't protect you than what good are they? Who were they protecting? Kerry?

Being an attention whore, a rabble rouser, or whatever is not a crime...it does not cause harm to anyone...no matter how annoying.

One of you was hauled off and violently attacked by civil servants in your employ for commiting no crime and people find it entertaining. Better get scared.


Do you think security had the right to remove him from the room when he was being disruptive and obviously grandstanding?
If you want to discuss excessive force,that is legitimate

[cloudshipsrule]

Poor kid. The police had so many other less-harmful options they could have used.


They could have simply continued to struggle with him, using even more force with more officers.

They could have used billy clubs.

They could have shot him in a knee.

Hmm. Maybe tasering him was a decent choice after all.

[JimBenArm]

SDC, I am actually have a very high opinion of the American Republic and a dim view of the "liberal democracy" in name only we have in Canada. That is why I when I see American's forgeting the basic freedoms they enjoy, nay died for it upsets me. You have the best chance in the world for social justice, you just have to make you leaders give it to you. Don't let the fact that your fellow citizens sometimes say stuff that makes you mad make you lose sight of this.
He was actively trying to prevent others from exercising their speech. You seem to have ignored that little tidbit in all this, or does the only thing that matter is him? If I was one of the people he cut in line in front of, I'd have taken the taser from the cop and used it on him myself!

[Unsecured Coins]

A different perspective: http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2977030&postcount=117

noted. Not to appear heartless or insensitive, but honestly I believe that everytime someone gets tasered, it was for a good reason. I cannot recall a time where someone who was cooperative and compliant got tased or pepper sprayed for no reason, (I'm sure it's happened a few times by a few cops with Badgeitis, though) but really, how hard is it to do what you're told?

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

wisdom

Right on!

I'm sick of people, who live outside of the country, letting their OWN propaganda (off the internet) make them experts on America. They don't realize how pathetic and ignorant they are. It's funny, because they're bigots, while raving at the mouth at how perfect they are, because they're not Americans.

Plus, this guy is a blubbering wuss bag. He screams like a girl, whines like a little kid whose parents never gave him the lesson that SDC learned. And on top of it all, he has a HISTORY of being a loud mouthed annoyance around campus, and he refused after several polite requests to hand over his mic to the next person with a question.

Once the cameras were off he was complying with the officers (Campus security guards) and then as soon as the cameras were on him again, he started blabbers "OMG They're gonna KILL ME"

He's nothing but one big blubbering drama queen who was taken down by a tiny chick-cop.

If John Kerry had any... He would have treated him like this:
ou2mVnElp6c

[dudalb]

This is not an instance of suppressing a dissident; this is simply taking care of a disorderly individual. He charged to the front of the queue to shout his questions; one of which was an inquiry regarding the Skull and Bones Club. He also acted out and was disorderly. If he was patient and posed his questions in an adult manner, this would not have happened. He was not punished for having opposing beliefs, he was being disorderly and he refused to follow an officer of the law's requests.

Therefore, your comment, which I quoted, is non sequitur; it does not follow what happend at the assembly.

If you want to discuss whether excessive force was used ,fine;that is a legitimate debate.
But saying this guy was tasered becuase of his opinions is so against the fact that I have to assume those saying so are either ignorant of the facts or ignoring them to push some kind of "Screw All Authority" agenda.

[Civilized Worm]

This is a whole load of fuss about nothing.


THIS is unwarranted tasering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs

[dudalb]

I'm sick of people, who live outside of the country, letting their OWN propaganda (off the internet) make them experts on America. They don't realize how pathetic and ignorant they are. It's funny, because they're bigots, while raving at the mouth at how perfect they are, because they're not Americans.
And the worst,most extreme of this lot at JREF actually is a European immigrant now living in the US,who none the less loves to protray all Americans are stupid,ignorant fools,and the US as a "Fascist" country. (He seems to favor A Maxist Society,btw). And he brags about how much money he is making at the expense of the stupid Americans. (This does not fit in well with his hard left wing views and his constant attacks on the Free Market system,but you expect logic from a guy like this?)
Frankly, the sooner he departs our shores and returns to whatever European country has the misfortune to be his home the better.

[dudalb]

This is a whole load of fuss about nothing.


THIS is unwarranted tasering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs

I have a feeling those who defend this guy have a basic resentment of all rules of public behavior.

[Sabrina]

A poster on another forum I frequent goes to this college and is hearing all of this stuff first hand; he thinks the guy's a drama queen and deserved to get tasered because he was acting like a complete pr*ck. I don't think anyone here is denying that he had the right to ask his questions; what he does not have the right to do is deny others the opportunity to ask THEIR questions and act like a total jackoff while doing so. Clearly he was raised in a barn, to use the colloquialism, and has no manners, and I have no sympathy for him.

[Jimbo07]

Plus, this guy is a blubbering wuss bag.

I was at a party one night with some cops. Shortly into the drinking we played, "let's see who can hold the hand-stunner (see TASER distinctions elsewhere) against their legs the longest!" I remember thinking, "gee this is really uncomfortable." That's it. When I got home and undressed, there were these burn marks on my leg! We were stupid, but this guy is a drama queen.

...

One note (adapted from what Canadian lawyers and cops I know have told me): if you genuinely think you're being oppressed by police, don't cry in public like a little wuss bag. Do the opposite. Shut up (that's important)! Keep your wits about you. Take mental notes (remember details like times). Seek legal counsel after the fact...

[Unsecured Coins]

"let's see who can hold the hand-stunner (see TASER distinctions elsewhere) against their legs the longest!"

my record was 37 seconds.

[JamesB]

This guy is not a first ammendement martyr, he is an egomaniac attention whore. Look at the name of his website for God's sake.

http://www.theandrewmeyer.com/

[SDC]

I see you are from Canada. I hope you are not one of those self-righteous "thank god we aren't Yanks, we are sooooooo much better" types.
Sorry for the heat. It's a long day tied to the terminal.

I'd like to apologize and withdraw my statement about Canadians, including Ontarians, eh. Rude and unkind on my part.

[cloudshipsrule]

If anyone defends this jerk after viewing his website, they too are guilty of being idiots.

[Minadin]

This is a whole load of fuss about nothing.


THIS is unwarranted tasering: AyvrqcxNIFs

Fixed (I think) Link.

[dudalb]

If anyone defends this jerk after viewing his website, they too are guilty of being idiots.


Agreed,but the fool has somehow become a symbol of "Government Oppression" to the wannabe revolutionaries out there.

[Sabrina]

I forget; why did they taze this guy again? And didn't the officers lose their jobs eventually?

ETA: Regarding the guy who got tazed in the video posted by Civilized Worm, that is; not the yahoo who this thread was started about.

[maxpower1227]

I forget; why did they taze this guy again? And didn't the officers lose their jobs eventually?

ETA: Regarding the guy who got tazed in the video posted by Civilized Worm, that is; not the yahoo who this thread was started about.

IIRC, he was asked for identification for some reason, didn't supply it, and was asked to leave. He then proceeded to start screaming and generally going insane, which caused the situation to escalate to the point of him getting tasered.

[Reality Believer]

This just in: :)

79gr6Yp-vO4

[NYCEMT86]

noted. Not to appear heartless or insensitive, but honestly I believe that everytime someone gets tasered, it was for a good reason. I cannot recall a time where someone who was cooperative and compliant got tased or pepper sprayed for no reason, (I'm sure it's happened a few times by a few cops with Badgeitis, though) but really, how hard is it to do what you're told?


I agree with you on this statement,


In a post Rodney King, Amadou Bailo Diallo, Sean Bell era, we cry foul when ever they use excessive force. We as a public give these men and woman the ability to use any appropriate force needed to prevent any situation from escalating, in return they put their lives on the line every time they put that uniform on. We give them the rights to carry firearms, pepper spray, batons, and billy clubs, but there is so many accusations that follow that its hard for an officer to react without him losing his job or even being put in jail. We look at a 150+ average for yearly LODD (Line of Duty Deaths) for Police Officers. The NYPD alone has had 343 men and woman shot and killed from 1806 to 2007. How many times have we read in the paper or watched on the news that an officer was shot in the line of duty? How many times have we seen officers ambushed while just doing a vehicle stop?

These University Officers (They are Police Officers working under the state and assigned to different Universities across the State, they are not Security Guards or "Rent-a-Cops") were controlling a situation that was starting to escalate, they have given this person several warnings prior to arresting him. He was told he would be tased if he didn't calm down and comply. They could have pepper sprayed him, but the problem with paper spray in an enclosed building with that many people is the fact that anyone near or around it will be effected as well. What would have happened if they didn't tase him? As we see in the video he is out of control and resisting arrest. Thats a situation people need to put themselves in to realize nothing is ever routine, especially when it deals with the risks any Law Enforcement agent faces.

I ask everyone of you to put yourself in their shoes, What would you do if you didn't know what was going to happen? Because Hindsight is 20/20.



Edited for corrections

[Anti-sophist]

Just like to point out, for the record, I attended that University and have been in that room and walked down those stairs more times then I care to count.

My opinion is that the use of the taser was debatable. Pretending he was tasered for "asking questions" is absurd. It's very obvious he made numerous decisions that escalated the situation. It's also obvious that he is either a total attention-seeker and/or severely disturbed.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Fixed (I think) Link.
Words never to say to a cop: [rule10] off.

I blame the parents for all these idiot kids who get tazed.

[Wartrac]

LMAO ok just watched that second video. How many times did they say "stand up"? I mean come on, it doesn't hurt that bad and it's not like he couldn't walk after they zapped him.

Here is the deal..........

Cop asks you to do something....just do it. If you act civil they will talk to you away from the area and hear you out more often than not. Then you can work things out etc. You have a chip on your shoulder and tell the cops to **** off more or less, you will have a video made about you.

What makes me laugh is the kids around them yelling at the police. I wonder how many of those Abercrombie & Fitch wearing students ever really "needed" the police. I wonder if they were getting mugged or raped or held against their will they would complain about "abusing their power".

I'll say it again. Cop says move, you move. They will treat you ok and things will get worked out.

But really keep on telling the police you won't do what they ask, they like that. Actually please do, cause these videos are cheap entertainment for me. Another point for all those that think doing what police say is laying down liberty....it's called just having respect!!!!!!!! Why? I'll explain it.

These people knock down doors, fight with drug dealers, rapists, gang members, get shot at on a routine traffic stop, risk their lives in high speed pursuits cause someone doesn't want to stop after running a stop sign and making sure our loved ones are protected. So when one of these individuals whom has done more for their cities, towns and communities than any one "twoofer, activist, or college student with a cause" has, show them some respect. Do what they request, and they will be civil in return. And I promise they won't ship you off to a FEMA camp just because you listened to their commands. :rolleyes:

They need to be out taking care of real crimes not wasting time on attention *****s with a blog and a myspace account. Frankly I think they should have used pepper spray while zapping them. Nothing like screaming with snot flying out of your face, makes a good party favor.

[Comsat Angel]

Wow, tazers ....

Over here, our police dream of tazers!

Tazers. Over here our police rely on "batons". Which would be a double-edged sword in Mr Meyer's circumstance, to mix metaphors.

[TX50]

We look at a 150+ average for yearly LODD (Line of Duty Deaths) for Police Officers. The NYPD alone has had 343 men and woman shot and killed from 1806 to 2007. How many times have we read in the paper or watched on the news that an officer was shot in the line of duty? How many times have we seen officers ambushed while just doing a vehicle stop?


I agree that most tasered "suspects" probably get it for a good reason.
However, policing - in the USA - is not, statistically, a particularly dangerous
job. Loggers, fishermen, pilots, steel-workers and drivers, for examples, all
suffer vastly more fatalities on the job than police officers.

[negativ]

Anyone who calls anyone else "bro" automatically deserves not to be TASER'd but to be hooked directly up to the ACDelco (http://www.acdelco.com/parts/battery/heavy-duty-battery.jsp) until it runs dry. So let it be written, so let it be done.

[Axiom_Blade]

If anyone defends this jerk after viewing his website, they too are guilty of being idiots.

Exactly what part of his website justified that treatment?

[Unsecured Coins]

Anyone who calls anyone else "bro" automatically deserves not to be TASER'd but to be hooked directly up to the ACDelco (http://www.acdelco.com/parts/battery/heavy-duty-battery.jsp) until it runs dry. So let it be written, so let it be done.


preach on, bro!!

[johnny karate]

I agree that most tasered "suspects" probably get it for a good reason.
However, policing - in the USA - is not, statistically, a particularly dangerous
job. Loggers, fishermen, pilots, steel-workers and drivers, for examples, all
suffer vastly more fatalities on the job than police officers.

But that doesn't change the fact that being a police officer is still a very dangerous job, and furthermore, these people risk their lives to protect yours.

[Horatius]

Do what they request, and they will be civil in return. And I promise they won't ship you off to a FEMA camp just because you listened to their commands. :rolleyes:




Or, as any alternative perspective: If you really believe that you're fighting the NWO, or whatever, by standing up to some cops, don't go around pretending like you're just an innocent victim of circumstances. Admit, right up front, "Yeah, I'm resisting you, because I think you're wrong." It's all this, "What's going on here? Why are you doing this?" whining that really annoys me. At least have the guts to admit you intended to mix it up with the cops.

[NYCEMT86]

I agree that most tasered "suspects" probably get it for a good reason.
However, policing - in the USA - is not, statistically, a particularly dangerous
job. Loggers, fishermen, pilots, steel-workers and drivers, for examples, all
suffer vastly more fatalities on the job than police officers.

I do understand this, but the figures you are talking about is related to fatalities. Being a police officer is a very dangerous job. Majority of these people who are in the top 10 dangerous jobs don't have to deal with other people deliberately trying to kill or harm them everyday they go to work. The possibility of being shot also isn't inside the realm of impossibility for an officer. I deal with a lot of on the job injuries when it comes to police officers that isn't related to gunshots.

[Horatius]

However, policing - in the USA - is not, statistically, a particularly dangerous job. Loggers, fishermen, pilots, steel-workers and drivers, for examples, all suffer vastly more fatalities on the job than police officers.




Can I just go on record as supporting the rights of loggers, fishermen, pilots, steel-workers and drivers to taser uncooperative trees, fish, air pockets, iron ores and slick roads?

[Wartrac]

I agree that most tasered "suspects" probably get it for a good reason.
However, policing - in the USA - is not, statistically, a particularly dangerous
job. Loggers, fishermen, pilots, steel-workers and drivers, for examples, all
suffer vastly more fatalities on the job than police officers.


There is one flaw in this point. All the professions you listed mostly are self inflicted fatalities. Meaning regardless if it's beer, not paying attention, or doing something you shouldn't with a chainsaw it was avoidable accidents.

With police how often do you think it's cause they shot themself or ran over themselves, stabbed themselves etc. Oh wait, it's the bad guys that do those things to them, so I guess making sure they are not in harms way is a bad thing? And why do you think there are less fatalites? Do you think it's due to their training and more often than not able to diffuse a situation? Stats don't show underlying causes nor "accidents" avoided.

[NYCEMT86]

I welcome TX50 to join the NYPD and ask to be assigned in the South Bx. or in BedStuy Bk.

[dudalb]

I welcome TX50 to join the NYPD and ask to be assigned in the South Bx. or in BedStuy Bk.


Or the LAPD and get assigned to South Central LA or Compton.

[scissorhands]

Owwww, help me, owww.

Sorry but....BWAAAAHHAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAA!

Ive watched it four times now.
Am I sick?

:confused:

[WildCat]

Loggers, fishermen, pilots, steel-workers and drivers, for examples, all
suffer vastly more fatalities on the job than police officers.
That's completely irrelevant. And if a logger thought the tree wouldn't fall on him if he shot it with a taser you can bet your sweet patooty he would! Yeah, I said patooty!

[WildCat]

Owwww, help me, owww.

Sorry but....BWAAAAHHAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAA!

Ive watched it four times now.
Am I sick?

:confused:
No, and the great thing is how many people actually had their cameras rolling so you can see different versions.

My best laugh comes from his girlish shrieking and whining, but when he starts saying that they're going to take him away and kill him I laugh pretty good then also.

[boloboffin]

If anyone defends this jerk after viewing his website, they too are guilty of being idiots.

I just viewed his website. It convinced me that he is an human being and quite serious about dissenting in American society. He's not above self promotion - but a website should always be viewed as an incomplete work in progress. If you think you can form a complete and adequate picture of Andrew from that website, you are the idiot.

In totalitarian societies, dissent is quelled with the boot. In democratic societies, dissent is quelled with ridicule and marginalization. Now that Andrew has gotten the boot, the more democratically acceptable ridicule is showing up here in spades.

You should be angry with the police for co-opting your job. This is a democracy, isn't it? You're the ones that are supposed to quell his dissent, not the police. Get mad at the cops! If they take your job away from you, you could be next!

Yes, he's a truther. Yes, he has a lot of wrongheaded ideas and his dissent may largely be about unimportant issues. Yes, he may be a jerk and an [rule10]. But that doesn't mean that police get to push his buttons until they get to taze him. If they had been serious about stopping the disturbance, they would have let him leave when he began to indicate he was ready to leave. He did that many times. The police weren't interested in stopping a disturbance at that point. They were interesting in establishing their authority over dissent, and demonstrating it to every person in that room. And, boy, did they.

Andrew Meyer was no threat to anyone there. He was being loud and obnoxious, and that is all. When it was reported that Alex Jones was tazed in New York, I laughed too. [rule10] me for doing so. It was a [rule10] thing to do, to revel in the pain of my political or ideological opponents. I'm better than that, and so is everyone else here.

[Bell]

No, and the great thing is how many people actually had their cameras rolling so you can see different versions.

My best laugh comes from his girlish shrieking and whining, but when he starts saying that they're going to take him away and kill him I laugh pretty good then also.

We killed him? Why do I never get the daily brief? :mad:

[DGM]

Andrew Meyer was no threat to anyone there. He was being loud and obnoxious, and that is all. When it was reported that Alex Jones was tazed in New York, I laughed too. [rule10] me for doing so. It was a [rule10] thing to do, to revel in the pain of my political or ideological opponents. I'm better than that, and so is everyone else here.

I think if it wasn't a high profile person like Kerry they wouldn't have done it. He did move toward the stage which I'm sure would make them nervous. A lunatic near a political figure in this day and age will get removed quickly.

[boloboffin]

I think if it wasn't a high profile person like Kerry they wouldn't have done it. He did move toward the stage which I'm sure would make them nervous. A lunatic near a political figure in this day and age will get removed quickly.

That is not true. He was staying at the microphone when the mic was cut. They then started to take him away. At no time did he ever move toward the stage. At one point he is backing away from the police and that is in the direction of the stage, but he is clearly not moving toward the stage intentionally.

I think you need to reassess your definition of lunatic.

[dudalb]

Do I detect a basic resentment toward the police here?

[DGM]

That is not true. He was staying at the microphone when the mic was cut. They then started to take him away. At no time did he ever move toward the stage. At one point he is backing away from the police and that is in the direction of the stage, but he is clearly not moving toward the stage intentionally.

I think you need to reassess your definition of lunatic.
I think the ranting and pushing back of the cops (beginning of ABC vid) is a good indicator. Also telling the mediator (?) that he has to inform people before asking his questions. He also works his way to the center (?) isle which is a clear shot to the stage. The man was in my opinion out of order and resisting the police efforts to remove him.

[Bell]

Do I detect a basic resentment toward the police here?

Not from me.

*points at sig*

[~enigma~]

That is not true. He was staying at the microphone when the mic was cut. They then started to take him away. At no time did he ever move toward the stage. At one point he is backing away from the police and that is in the direction of the stage, but he is clearly not moving toward the stage intentionally.

I think you need to reassess your definition of lunatic.
Did you read any reports of what he did before asking questions? It wasn't an accident that two cops were right behind him as the video started.

[~enigma~]

Also telling the mediator (?) that he has to inform people before asking his questions.
That was told to a cop. Wonder why their were 2 cops right behind him as the video started?

[boloboffin]

Do I detect a basic resentment toward the police here?

Nope. Nice try at ridiculing and marginalizing me. Do over.

[WildCat]

We killed him? Why do I never get the daily brief? :mad:
We couldn't kill him, thanks to those meddling kids putting the video up on youtube! Ruined Agent 57982434's whole day.

[boloboffin]

I think the ranting and pushing back of the cops (beginning of ABC vid) is a good indicator. Also telling the mediator (?) that he has to inform people before asking his questions. He also works his way to the center (?) isle which is a clear shot to the stage. The man was in my opinion out of order and resisting the police efforts to remove him.

Everybody does a rant every now and again. Some people make a living ranting. Ranting isn't a dirty word anymore.

Yes, he was pushing back at police at points. He shouldn't have done that, but the police there had no reason to push the situation to that point. They are the instigators.

People who ask questions give a basis for those questions all the time. It's no reason to wrestle them to the back of the room and taze them. It's no reason to consider them lunatics.

He doesn't work his way anywhere toward the aisle. He is escorted there. Watch the tape again. The police move in and take him there. He was threatening no one with physical harm. He was not a danger to anyone in that room. He was an irritant surrounded by idiot police.

For a reference to smart police dealing with irritants, refer to the WeAreChange video where Luke and company hound Bloomberg in the subway. The one security guy gets right into Luke's face, and Luke whines about being touched. But the security guy engages him as a human being while making it clear where the boundaries are. That was a class act. The Florida incident was a disgrace.

Furthermore, John Kerry was handling the situation. Kerry wasn't letting him get away with much. Kerry himself has released a statement in which he says he's dealt with people like this before. He does it all the time. He was doing it by how? By treating Meyer with respect even though Meyer wasn't being that respectful. He was treating him like a human.

When we stop treating dissenters, rational or not, like humans, we lose.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

You are right, or at least I agree with you (a different matter) in some respects. It's not funny. But here are some real-world points I'd like to raise.

When I was a young sprat, my parents and teachers and other adults responsible for my upbringing dandled me on their knees and said, "Don't give lip to people with sticks, guns, and tasers which haven't been invented yet, especially if they are wearing uniforms and represent popularly recognized authority. And don't resist their immediate commands, as well. Not unless you want to get your butt kicked." For which wisdom I'm suitably grateful, because otherwise I'd have had my butt kicked more often, and what is the point of that? Now I'm an older gent, with a teenager of my own, and you know what? This wisdom seems ever wiser as a result. If you want to protest, do it calmly and peacefully.

This was a rowdy young guy, giving grief to a lot of others (not just the police, or Kerry, but it seems the crowd), and refusing to back down. Obviously his parents, etc., didn't teach him well. Can you say common sense?

Democracy crumbling... Where were you in the 1950s? I can remember (as a child) the freedom riders (in my case, rte 40 West in Maryland). I can remember black people often being denied the vote. I can remember (minority group of your choosing) receiving seriously bad treatment.

When I was a kid, about 10 times as many civilians were shot and killed by police, as happens now. True in NYC, where I now live, and I assume similar numbers elsewhere. Can you say Bull Connor? Just died. Lost his job decades ago.

When I was a kid, dissenters on a large scale lost jobs -- or never got them. Oh heck, there are any number of things like this. This is a much more effectively democratic polity and society than I grew up in. (I can remember when anti-Jewish, Italian, Polish... slurs and actions were not on the fringe, but in daily and loud usage by the "majority.")

I see you are from Canada. I hope you are not one of those self-righteous "thank god we aren't Yanks, we are sooooooo much better" types.

Here is a favorite factoid of mine. What was the first major political unit in the English-speaking world to ban capital punishment, and why? Major political unit defined as large enough to be authorized to take such a step. Answer: the state of Michigan, where I have spent much of my adult life, banned it -- in the state constitution -- ca.1840. Why? Best judgement is that it was a time of heavy Irish immigration, to what became Ontario and what was already Michigan, as well as elsewhere. The Michiganders -- living in and around Detroit -- were sickened by the English-speaking rulers over in Windsor, hanging Irish "felons" wholesale.

There. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to say that. I've wanted to say that to a Canadian, or a British individual, for some time.

Sorry for the heat. It's a long day tied to the terminal.

Thanks for this fine post. :D As a Canadian I'll say "Ouch" for you if you like. Feel better now? :covereyes

Most of the World is a better place today than it has ever been in history.

A nation that forgets its history is condemned to repeat it forever.
-- Santayana

[Tbone]

That was told to a cop. Wonder why their were 2 cops right behind him as the video started?

In the thread about this in the Politics section, at the point this video started, this guy had already run up to the microphone from his place some distance back in the line.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I'd like to apologize and withdraw my statement about Canadians, including Ontarians, eh. Rude and unkind on my part.

Fine. You are a gentleman, But I'not taking my "Ouch" back. :(

[ElMondoHummus]

"let's see who can hold the hand-stunner (see TASER distinctions elsewhere) against their legs the longest!"


my record was 37 seconds.

Turn it on next time.

;):D:p

[JJR]

How 'bout a shirt that says, "Don't taze me, Kerry!!!" with a pic of Kerry just standing there like a zombie going "I didn't see it . . uh . ."

Rock on!!!

[PhantomWolf]

I'm going to repost what I posted to the political forum here.

I have to admit not reading all of the last 5 pages, but here's my view. Growing up in a country where Police Officers have been unarmed and even now rarely carry more then pepper spray and a baton (on them, many senior front line officers will carry something in the car, either a glock or a rifle), when I see the way US cops often react I firmly believe that they have lost the ability to do basic man-management.

Our police officers have been through riots and worse without the need to carry a gun, in fact generally only officers called to a fire arms incident, in our Armed Offenders, or those stationed at International Airports (this is because International Law dictates that police in such airports must be armed) will be publically armed in such a way. The rest manage these situations anyway and it is extremely rare that we have either a Police fatality, or an offender one. In fact the last Police deaths we had were in 2005 from a car crash and a plane crash. The last offender related police officer death was in 2002. Similarity the last offender shot and killed that I can locate was in 2004 when a man attacked police with a knife after stabbing his wife. This doesn't mean that we haven't had situations were they couldn't have shot and killed people, last year a loon with a gun was on a rampage that ended up with him shooting three people, one fatally. The police officers shot him, but non-fatally. Earlier this year a police officer was stabbed with a knife, and just a few weeks ago police where fired on during a car chase. These things happen on a regular basis, but the way our police respond to them is very different to the way the Police in the US handle them.

Here is what our police have to handle in a year:


Police arrest 110,000 people a year
70% of arrests in weekends are of people affected by drink and or drugs.
25,000 disorder offences each year where an element of aggression is often involved
50,000 instances of family violence each year,
2,000 recorded instances of assaults on Police
nearly 10% of people arrested have used methamphetamine within the last 48 hours.
Each year police take around 16,000 people into custody for detox, a majority of these persons are aggressive.
Police deal with over 6,500 cases of people exhibiting irrational or bizarre behaviour many of whom are volatile or at the very least unpredictable.


There is, for example, no excuse for using a Taser on someone simply because they refuse to hang up their cell phone and get out of the car. To do so shows a sevre lack of management skills. It seems that to many police officers in the US, the Taser has become the number one choice of weapon, when in reality it should be the second to last choice. They need to learn to use their voice, their body, the baton, and pepper spray all first. Only when the stakes are at tase of be harmed themselves, or allow harm to someone else, should the Taser be considered.

To underscore this I refer to the study our own police just conducted with Tasers. The rules of engagement here were that the Taser was to be used only in a situation where the officer would otherwise draw a gun. As a result the trial was a complete success, many offenders actually giving up rather then facing being tased. (though in one rather comical event the officer managed to tase himself and another person rather then the offender.) Yet as of April this year (http://www.police.govt.nz/news/release/2991.html), of the 85 incidents where a Taser was involved, only in 13 cases was it used. By the end of the trial out of 120 incidents, they had been used only 19 times. Why can our police handle the situations without resorting to use of the Taser when US police can't? I'd say it is a lack of training in people management by the US police forces, I'd back this up by pointing out that there are a number of police in the US that CAN do man-management well and as a result rarely, if ever pull a weapon. That means that it can be done even in the US, and the reason it isn't is not because it's too hard, but rather that officers aren't trained in how to deal with people properly so simply opt for the easy way out and use a weapon.

With the proper training and abilities given to police officers to manage people without resorting to pulling a weapon, perhaps the US would start to see a drop in their officer related death stats as well. In the end, Tasers are a useful tool for the Police, but they have to be used correctly. They are a replacement for a gun, and should only be used as such. The first question an officer should be asking themselves is, "Would I shoot this person with a firearm for what they are doing?" If the answer is no, then a Taser is not an appropriate form of control against that person. Period. If the answer is yes, then the obvious response to the critics of Tasers is "Would you perfer that I had shot them?"

Tasing someone for failing to follow your instructions is a total cop out (pun sorta intended.) If you can't get someone to follow instructions and calm a situation down without a need to resort to weapondry (instead of nearly starting a riot and threatening anyone that quesions your actions with Tazing themselves) then you shouldn't be a cop in the first place.

[Alt+F4]

Good God! Only the conspiracy liars could take an incident of bad police work and turn it into the absolute end of democracy for every single person in the United States.

[bjb]

If you can't get someone to follow instructions and calm a situation down without a need to resort to weapondry (instead of nearly starting a riot and threatening anyone that quesions your actions with Tazing themselves) then you shouldn't be a cop in the first place.

No. If someone is on drugs or has a mental illness then the cops will need to use some sort of force. This guy was behaving erratically so he was asking for it. He did not display any intention of following any instructions (cutting in line, not letting Kerry answer questions, etc.), so the cops had to assume the worst, that the guy was in some sort of dangerous irrational state.

I hate to bring this up again, but last year my neighbor, a retired cop, went around the neighborhood park waving a gun around. Then he got into his car and parked down the street from his house. When the cops came by, he stepped out of his car and pointed his gun at the cops, so one of them emptied his clip into him. I was home at the time and heard the shots very clearly. Anyway, I don't think anyone believes the cops should have just stood there when me neighbor pointed a gun at them. There are times when force is necessary, and when someone is behaving in an irrational manner, the police should not take chances and they need to put an end to the situation.

[WildCat]

For a reference to smart police dealing with irritants, refer to the WeAreChange video where Luke and company hound Bloomberg in the subway. The one security guy gets right into Luke's face, and Luke whines about being touched. But the security guy engages him as a human being while making it clear where the boundaries are.
And there's the difference. Luke didn't cross the boundary, and thus did not have to be forcibly removed. Odd how if you obey the police, you don't get tasered, isn't it?

[JoeEllison]

No. If someone is on drugs or has a mental illness then the cops will need to use some sort of force. This guy was behaving erratically so he was asking for it. He did not display any intention of following any instructions (cutting in line, not letting Kerry answer questions, etc.), so the cops had to assume the worst, that the guy was in some sort of dangerous irrational state.

So, in other words, someone needs to taser Bill O'Reilly as soon as possible, for the good of society? :D

[boloboffin]

And there's the difference. Luke didn't cross the boundary, and thus did not have to be forcibly removed. Odd how if you obey the police, you don't get tasered, isn't it?

You go on thinking that. The difference was smart police and idiot police. Andrew was doing nothing more aggressive than refusing to be interrupted when action was initiated against him.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/boloboffin2/Tazed1.png

"Wheeeeeha! I just tazered me an [rule8]! I'm going to Disneyland!"

[PhantomWolf]

No. If someone is on drugs or has a mental illness then the cops will need to use some sort of force. This guy was behaving erratically so he was asking for it. He did not display any intention of following any instructions (cutting in line, not letting Kerry answer questions, etc.), so the cops had to assume the worst, that the guy was in some sort of dangerous irrational state.

I disagree. Look at the stats I posted. I took those from the New Zealand Police website. 6,500 people a year here are arrested in exactly these circumstances. 11,000 people arrested a year have been using Meth, and yet in one year only 120 incidents required showing a taser. Only 19 times was a taser used. Think about this. In one year, the entire trial group of the New Zealand police force used their tasers less than some US cops do in ONE incident. I'm going to repeat this because I think it is important. In one year, the entire trial group of the New Zealand police force used their tasers less than some US cops do in ONE incident. In the UCLA incident they used their tasers at least 5 times. Why? This student was unarmed and not a threat to them or anyone else, but they tased him 5 times. That is 25% of the number of Tasing done by the NZ Police in an ENTIRE YEAR! Think about this. Can't you see anything wrong here? Your police zapped one unarmed, nonthreatening kid 25% of the entire zapping an entire police force used in a year on people with knifes and other weapons, othen drunk or drugged and generally violent. Can you honestly tell me that you don't see anything wrong with this? Would you agree with it if they'd shot him instead? These officers were not using their tasers as a form of self defence, they were using them as a formn of control, and that's wrong. If they can't control an unruly teen without a taser, they should not be officers. Period. If they aren't capable, they simply should not be doing the job. Kiwi officers could have gotten him out of there withoiut the other students even knowing they'd been there, why can't the US ones?

I hate to bring this up again, but last year my neighbor, a retired cop, went around the neighborhood park waving a gun around. Then he got into his car and parked down the street from his house. When the cops came by, he stepped out of his car and pointed his gun at the cops, so one of them emptied his clip into him. I was home at the time and heard the shots very clearly. Anyway, I don't think anyone believes the cops should have just stood there when me neighbor pointed a gun at them. There are times when force is necessary, and when someone is behaving in an irrational manner, the police should not take chances and they need to put an end to the situation.

I'm going to say that they were wrong here too. Why? Because while he was a threat, it was not at the point of requiring fire power. Once again, here they would have handled it totally differently. Firing would have been the very, very last resort, likely taken only after he had fire first. The officers involved could have made sure that the area was secure and that they were undercover mostly out of danger. Simply shooting him because he pointed a gun at them merely highlights my points above, US cops have no man-management skills, they resort to weapons because they can't figure out how to handle the situation without them. Cops here don't have the weapons, so they have to learn how to do it in other ways, and as a result we haven't had a Police shooting in 3 years and a Police Officer killed in 5.

[WildCat]

You go on thinking that. The difference was smart police and idiot police. Andrew was doing nothing more aggressive than refusing to be interrupted when action was initiated against him.
Nonsense, he refused to leave when asked and resisted attempts to escort him out. No cop (and this includes "smart" ones) is just going to stand by and let him take charge of the situation.

[WildCat]

I disagree. Look at the stats I posted. I took those from the New Zealand Police website. 6,500 people a year here are arrested in exactly these circumstances.
I really doubt NZ police have to deal with as much hard-core violence as US cops do. How many NZ cops have been killed in the line of duty lately?

eta: 53 police in the US shot to death so far this year, 5 killed in a vehicular assault, 2 killed by a bomb.

[PhantomWolf]

I really doubt NZ police have to deal with as much hard-core violence as US cops do. How many NZ cops have been killed in the line of duty lately?

As I pointed out (twice), the last Police death was in 2002, but we had Police officers being shot at just the other day, and one was seriously injured from being stabbed not so long ago. They do have to handle serious offending. Look at the link I posted in the first post, it lists the incidents that the Tasers were used in. Admittedly most of our incidents are with knives, axes or other wepons, but a number involve guns, including the one I mentioned above that involved three people being shot, one fatally, by the offender, who was then shot non-fatally by the police.

If anything, US cops should be better at handling these sort of situations. Because they are likely to be more common, they should be trained in how to handle them effectively. Our cops met them less often so they don't have the experience, but they still handle them better. Why is that?

[PhantomWolf]

Nonsense, he refused to leave when asked and resisted attempts to escort him out. No cop (and this includes "smart" ones) is just going to stand by and let him take charge of the situation.

Would you think it acceptable to shoot someone for doing this?

[Bell]

If anything, US cops should be better at handling these sort of situations. Because they are likely to be more common, they should be trained in how to handle them effectively. Our cops met them less often so they don't have the experience, but they still handle them better. Why is that?

Phantom, I've read your other post as well (in both threads non the less) but I don't think the question here is if the cops handeled bad in comparison to NZ cops, but if they handeled bad by US standards. In the latter case I would say no.

[WildCat]

Police Officer Nick Erfle (http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=19001). Killed by a jaywalker who had a misdemeanor warrant, Erfle is the latest US cop to be killed by a man he was arresting for a very minor charge. And this is fairly typical - a minor routine arrest turns deadly for the cop. Cops can't look at someone and instantly know whether they're homicidal or harmless, despite what some posters here seem to think. And their first priority is making sure they get to go home at the end of the day, and not be added to the list (http://www.odmp.org/index.php) because they gave someone the benefit of the doubt.

[WildCat]

Would you think it acceptable to shoot someone for doing this?
Absolutely, shooting someone is EXACTLY like tasering them. :rolleyes:

[Redtail]

Phantom I have to agree with you on the College student who was zapped. IMO it wasn't necessary.

But In the case of bjb's story once he pointed a gun at the cops, again IMO, the cops did what was necessary.

[WildCat]

If anything, US cops should be better at handling these sort of situations. Because they are likely to be more common, they should be trained in how to handle them effectively.
I think the UF jackass was handled quite effectively. Just because he screams like a schoolgirl doesn't prove otherwise.

[PhantomWolf]

Police Officer Nick Erfle (http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=19001). Killed by a jaywalker who had a misdemeanor warrant, Erfle is the latest US cop to be killed by a man he was arresting for a very minor charge. And this is fairly typical - a minor routine arrest turns deadly for the cop. Cops can't look at someone and instantly know whether they're homicidal or harmless, despite what some posters here seem to think. And their first priority is making sure they get to go home at the end of the day, and not be added to the list (http://www.odmp.org/index.php) because they gave someone the benefit of the doubt.

Detective Constable Duncan Taylor (http://www.police.govt.nz/about/memorial/duncan_taylor.html)

I am sure that we can happily compare lists, though since the US has 100x the popluation, yours would likely be 100 times longer. Our's includes officers killed going after burglars, at traffic stops, or being shot in Domestic disputes, the circumstances are the same as yours. Our cops face the same sort of problems yours do, though in all fairness not as many fire arms, mostly firearms are shotguns or rifles here, but that doesn't stop people attacking them with screwdrivers, knives and even pieces of wood.

Absolutely, shooting someone is EXACTLY like tasering them.

No, it's not obviously, but the reason I bring it up is this. How would the officers have handled the situation if they didn't have tasers? If they felt that a taser was the only way, would they have pulled a gun and threatened to shoot him? The cop at the end of the video threatens a by stander with tasing for questioning them. Would he have threatened to shoot him if he didn't have a Taser? My point is that the Tasers weren't necessary, they were an easy way out by cops that couldn't be bothered actually doing it the right way, and using a bit of man-management, either because they were too lazy, or they just didn't have a clue how too.

[~enigma~]

In the thread about this in the Politics section, at the point this video started, this guy had already run up to the microphone from his place some distance back in the line.
Exactly. The guy was causing a problem before the video started.

[WildCat]

Detective Constable Duncan Taylor (http://www.police.govt.nz/about/memorial/duncan_taylor.html)

I am sure that we can happily compare lists, though since the US has 100x the popluation, yours would likely be 100 times longer.
I counted 26, and that goes back to 1890! It's hardly in proportion to population.

No, it's not obviously, but the reason I bring it up is this. How would the officers have handled the situation if they didn't have tasers?
Police departments here use the Taser as a less brutal substitute for the old billy club. And female officers don't have to get as close to use them. And not all departments use them - Chicago experimented with them but stopped using them after some deaths due to heart attacks. Seems overweight crackheads with bad hearts don't fare so well with being tasered.

Standard procedure with the billy club is to hit the offender in the legs until he goes down, but I really doubt this wouldn't have generated just as much hand-wringing from you.

[WildCat]

I counted 26, and that goes back to 1890! It's hardly in proportion to population.
Just to further illustrate this, Chicago has roughly the same population* as New Zealand. Since 1890, there have been over 340 Chicago cops killed by gunfire alone.

*NZ has over 1 million more than Chicago does today. But Chicago had more in the past, and NZ less.

[jberryhill]

Further, to simply comply with police when no crime has been commited is in no way required of an American citizen.

What is required of an American citizen, and what is available to this young man right now, is to stand up to vindicate any violation of his rights in the manner which our Constitution and laws provide.

I have seen not one person say that, if this young man believes his rights to have been violated, that he should not be allowed access to a court of competent jurisdiction to make out his claims of unlawful detention, false arrest, assault, and yes infringement of his right to free speech.

He may, under 42 USC 1983 and 42 US 1988 further seek award of reasonable attorneys fees in so doing. This feature of our laws, made so in the Civil Rights Act of 1976 has provided many an aggrieved civil rights plaintiff with the ability to seek an obtain competent legal counsel on the strength of his or her claim alone.

But, the point remains, I have not seen a single person in any forum claim that the courthouse door is not open to receive this young man with his complaint and filing fee of $325 in hand.

Accordingly, I do not see where he is not able to exercise his rights and seek redress of any injury to them.

Grandstanding and bellyaching is a poor substitute for taking the correct action on the basis of one's convictions.

[Smiledriver]

I'd like to apologize and withdraw my statement about Canadians, including Ontarians, eh. Rude and unkind on my part.

It's coo, frankly your not wrong about many of my fellow Canadians, they can sure be snooty about not being Americans, like they should take pride in an accident of their birth.

Silly.

[autumn1971]

I happen to live in the area of this University and its police department (seperate from the city and county departments), and I think this is a case of rent-a-cops with weapons finding an excuse to use them. One girlish student can't be immobilized by six police officers?
The University Police Department is much more concerned with making sure the alumni keep donating money, and anything that could affect said donations is met with force, while a few years ago a young woman ran naked from a frat house to a neighbor sobbing that she had been raped, and was immeadiatly arrested by the UPD for filing a false report (frat-boys tend to be the children of rich alumni, and as such, are never arrested for their many violent crimes).

[PhantomWolf]

Police departments here use the Taser as a less brutal substitute for the old billy club. And female officers don't have to get as close to use them. And not all departments use them - Chicago experimented with them but stopped using them after some deaths due to heart attacks. Seems overweight crackheads with bad hearts don't fare so well with being tasered.

Well then that is probably the problem. They shouldn't be treated as a baton would be, they can be a lethal weapon, especially when used on someone multiple times. Tasing someone 50 times is inexcusable, especially when there are way better ways of controlling people that don't require it. Going back to the UCLA footage, those cops all but started a riot for something they could have easily handled without drawing a weapon. Tasing a woman in a car because she won't get off the phone is equally inexcusable. The fact that you willingly support the use of such violence on people by your law enforcement is quite troubling to me. I fully support the use of self defence, but I draw the line at beating or repeatedly shocking unarmed and pasively-resisting people who are not a threat to the officer or those around them. Violence is not the answer, especially from those that are supposed to be up holding the laws. Would you tase your child, or beat them with a club for not following your instructions? If not, why let Police do it?

Standard procedure with the billy club is to hit the offender in the legs until he goes down, but I really doubt this wouldn't have generated just as much hand-wringing from you.

Actually I would here too. Our police use the PR 24 long baton, and it is used to control an agressive offender, pinning limbs, and restraining them, not as a club to beat on them. Again I have to ask, would you condone this sort of behaviour being done by an adult on a child for them being unrulely? If not, why do you condone that sort of behaviour against unarmed people for doing nothing more than pasively resiting? Do you condone a Police Officer telling a by stander who has done nothing other that question the officer's actions that if he doesn't shut up and go away he'll be tased as well?

[PhantomWolf]

Just to further illustrate this, Chicago has roughly the same population* as New Zealand. Since 1890, there have been over 340 Chicago cops killed by gunfire alone.

*NZ has over 1 million more than Chicago does today. But Chicago had more in the past, and NZ less.

Well I would point out the Chicago has a well known organised crime issue, though I'd also ask you if that figure wasn't a bit of a worry to you?

[autumn1971]

PhantomWolf, you forget that the USA is the home of the "police riot", a very effective technique for dealing with passive resistance. As long ago as the distant sixties police forces realised that much time and manpower could be saved by simply wading into non-violent protesters with clubs. Any excuse could be offered-he made a sudden movement, I felt threatened, etc.-and the resulting melee would be justified.
It has become one of our national sports.

[bjb]

I fully support the use of self defence, but I draw the line at beating or repeatedly shocking unarmed and pasively-resisting people who are not a threat to the officer or those around them.

I agree with you on this point, however, I'm not sure this guy was passively resisting the security guards. In the 80's, we had anti-apartheid protesters at my college and they would go limp and make the cops drag them away. It was rather pathetic to watch since I didn't know who I felt more sorry for, the cops or the protesters. I didn't passive resistance happening in the video, but if I did, I would be on this guy's side 100%. But who knows, I don't think the guy was being excessively violent so maybe he was non-aggressive enough. He did manage to hold on to his book so he couldn't have been putting up too much of a fight.

[PhantomWolf]

PhantomWolf, you forget that the USA is the home of the "police riot", a very effective technique for dealing with passive resistance. As long ago as the distant sixties police forces realised that much time and manpower could be saved by simply wading into non-violent protesters with clubs. Any excuse could be offered-he made a sudden movement, I felt threatened, etc.-and the resulting melee would be justified.
It has become one of our national sports.

And yet it doesn't seem to worry some people here. This is what I don't get, we had violent protests during 1981 (the infamous Springbok Tour) and every now and then the police do mishandle situations that get out of control, but for the most part they get it right and shut down situation peacefully and without having to resort to violence.

Yet it seems that there are many on this board that not only support their police using violence to solve basic problems, but applaude it. It sems weird to me that these same people would likely throw a fit over a suspect being treated in such a way to get information from them, but are happy, in fact encourage, that sort of behaviour when it comes to the arrest of a suspect. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the murder rates in the US when that sort of things is considered acceptable behaviour.

[PhantomWolf]

I agree with you on this point, however, I'm not sure this guy was passively resisting the security guards. In the 80's, we had anti-apartheid protesters at my college and they would go limp and make the cops drag them away. It was rather pathetic to watch since I didn't know who I felt more sorry for, the cops or the protesters. I didn't passive resistance happening in the video, but if I did, I would be on this guy's side 100%. But who knows, I don't think the guy was being excessively violent so maybe he was non-aggressive enough. He did manage to hold on to his book so he couldn't have been putting up too much of a fight.

While it's certainly hard to see most of it, the main reason he kept getting shocked was his refuse to stand up, hence the cop's repeated demands to "stand up or we'll taser you again." Do you also feel that the threat to taser the student who was questioning their actions and wanting their badge numbers was also inappropriate?

[PhantomWolf]

I want to make it quite clear that I am for the police having these weapons, but I am also for them using them responsibly. That means that they should be trained to use, and then actually exhaust all other possible methods of dealing with a person before resorting to a taser, the taser should not be the first thing that a cop reaches for, and too often in the US that is what is happening.

[autumn1971]

I want to make it quite clear that I am for the police having these weapons, but I am also for them using them responsibly. That means that they should be trained to use, and then actually exhaust all other possible methods of dealing with a person before resorting to a taser, the taser should not be the first thing that a cop reaches for, and too often in the US that is what is happening.

Again, here in the Good Ole' U S of A(copyright pending), the guarantee of our freedoms is the very thing that has made our overseers, sorry, police forces, so violent. A signifigant number of officers in the US join a police force because they feel small, and any chance to be a "big man" is seen as a sort of satori. Thus, any situation that could lead to a violent outcome, even hypothetically, is seen as a reason to be violent. The present case proves the point: six armed policemen holding one little boy claim that they are so threatened that the use of a potentially lethal device is authorised. These officers were probably turgid as they unleashed their tasers. It is all they have ever wanted to do, and the least excuse releases them from any responsibility for their crimes.

[R.Mackey]

... or that our cops face more danger than yours, etc....

Two observations:

1. The police appeared to use a bit more force than was needed on the guy, and

2. The guy got exactly what he wanted.

Some things in life are worth getting yourself beat over (tip of the hat to Mahatma Ghandi). This certainly wasn't one of them.

[Wartrac]

Again, here in the Good Ole' U S of A(copyright pending), the guarantee of our freedoms is the very thing that has made our overseers, sorry, police forces, so violent. A signifigant number of officers in the US join a police force because they feel small, and any chance to be a "big man" is seen as a sort of satori. Thus, any situation that could lead to a violent outcome, even hypothetically, is seen as a reason to be violent. The present case proves the point: six armed policemen holding one little boy claim that they are so threatened that the use of a potentially lethal device is authorised. These officers were probably turgid as they unleashed their tasers. It is all they have ever wanted to do, and the least excuse releases them from any responsibility for their crimes.

This is so out of line I can't even reply with what I want to say lol. Yeah you're right this is why police officers join the force. :rolleyes:

Like anything else, you have some bad people doing jobs they shouldn't be doing. However, this is a small minority. I love how people take a small percentage of arrests etc that go bad and say "this is what they all do or what they all are thinking". Here I can do it too......

"People that haven't been a potentially life threatening situtaion have no idea what it is like when dealing with one". They should stop relying on "STATS" thinking that this explains what is happening in specific situations in detail. Until you have a gun in your face etc like some of us have relax in judgement.

You couldn't beat the kid, it has more lasting effects. You couldn't mace him due to the close proximity to the rest of the crowd. Zapping him isn't a "would I shoot him is I didn't have this tool" situation. It is to get your attention and listen to the officer and comply. In very few rare occasions it has any lasting or permenant effects. Again, say what you will....but it's simple. Do what they ask you to do and you will stop feeling all tingly.

[YCHTT]

Except when it's the shirtless, handcuffed 350-lb guy you are about to load up and transport to the hospital. Juiced up with meth and PCP, lying there with about five Taser darts in him, and additional therapy applied simultaneously via Asp and stun gun. I actually kinda felt sorry for him by the time our law enforcement friends discharged all the batteries on their Tasers. But after they were done, at least they were there to lift him. :D


MoCo County boys took a page out of the ol PG playbook huh? :D

[YCHTT]

ya know what's funny about watching someone get tasered?


everything.

SO True!

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

If I'm being honest, I haven't read many posts after the middle of page 2, so I apologize if my opinions expressed here have already been brought out. Firstly:

1) I believe watching people be tazed has massive entertainment value in most circumstances.
2) In the grand scheme of things, I don't think this guy being tazered signals the downfall of western civilisation and democracy as we know it.

However, that said:

1) There is no law against being a loud-mouthed attention-seeking tool as far as I am aware.

2) Are American policemen not trained in restraint techniques? I mean, this guy wasn't exactly a Chuck Norris style karate-expert-death-machine who looked as if he takes 10 coppers apart bare-handed before breakfast. (Without wishing to adopt a 'We're superior to the Yanks' attitude) If that incident had happened in the UK, I seriously doubt the guy would have been tazered. It would have been more likely that his arm would have been twisted up his back and he would have been gently persuaded to leave by being frog-marched out, or dragged. Preferrable to being tazered, some may agree.

Just my thoughts.

[Wartrac]

But hand to hand struggle puts the officer at risk. Again, there is no real damage done with a little zap.

One of my best friends was a police officer in Oakland. While trying to "restrain" a suspect that was out of control he was injured to the point of having to retire.

The suspect got his hands on a small knife from his belt and stuck it through my friends hand. Tearing tendons etc to the point where he could no longer function as an officer. This guy was at a convience store yelling at people over the price of his coffee.

So yes there is an option to take control of someone. However, if it appears that they are irrational, you can take non-lethal steps to protect yourself from harm.

Let's ask this question.

If they used unarmed tactics only and he resisted and his arm was broken in the struggle. Is that a better situation? You can walk away from being hit with a Taser and not even feel like something has happened in a short while. Getting up close and personal opens up more potential for lasting harm for both parties.

This is coming from a person with 30 years various martial arts training as well as serving my last two years in active duty as a garrison MP (I was Infantry for 4 years prior). I decided to go MP cause I was delusioned thinking I was going to become a police officer when I got out lol. Then I found out they didn't make much more in some areas than I was in the Army :eye-poppi. I don't claim to have a ton of exp regarding police work but in those two years I had a few situations that I can relate to. However with that said, my other training allows me to understand what it takes to subdue someone. Rergardless of training there is always unknowns. Frankly even with my background I would rather restrain someone without having to touch them. I really don't want to spend time in hospital for any reason, nevermind because of some moron that won't listen.

Again, this isn't about the officers. It's about someone being and ***hat and just simply could have walked out the door. He could have then talked to the news and made a statement about being "silenced" and blogged about it. Officers don't know what your intentions are when they approach you. If they have the slightest hint that they can be harmed you will lose.

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

But hand to hand struggle puts the officer at risk. Again, there is no real damage done with a little zap.

One of my best friends was a police officer in Oakland. While trying to "restrain" a suspect that was out of control he was injured to the point of having to retire.

The suspect got his hands on a small knife from his belt and stuck it through my friends hand. Tearing tendons etc to the point where he could no longer function as an officer. This guy was at a convience store yelling at people over the price of his coffee.

So yes there is an option to take control of someone. However, if it appears that they are irrational, you can take non-lethal steps to protect yourself from harm.

Let's ask this question.

If they used unarmed tactics only and he resisted and his arm was broken in the struggle. Is that a better situation? You can walk away from being hit with a Taser and not even feel like something has happened in a short while. Getting up close and personal opens up more potential for lasting harm for both parties.

This is coming from a person with 30 years various martial arts training as well as serving my last two years in active duty as a garrison MP (I was Infantry for 4 years prior). I decided to go MP cause I was delusioned thinking I was going to become a police officer when I got out lol. Then I found out they didn't make much more in some areas than I was in the Army :eye-poppi. I don't claim to have a ton of exp regarding police work but in those two years I had a few situations that I can relate to. However with that said, my other training allows me to understand what it takes to subdue someone. Rergardless of training there is always unknowns. Frankly even with my background I would rather restrain someone without having to touch them. I really don't want to spend time in hospital for any reason, nevermind because of some moron that won't listen.

Again, this isn't about the officers. It's about someone being and ***hat and just simply could have walked out the door. He could have then talked to the news and made a statement about being "silenced" and blogged about it. Officers don't know what your intentions are when they approach you. If they have the slightest hint that they can be harmed you will lose.

Fair points - but how were the officers to know the guy didn't have heart problems and that tazing him could have potentially been fatal? Given your experience, I'm sure you'll agree that there are many ways of restraining someone which have minimal risk of seriously injuring them.

As I alluded to; the guy was hardly Schwarzenegger - a quick assessment of the situation should have been enough to see that the guy was a weedy loudmouth who just needed 'escorting' off the premises.

Agreed that it seems the guy wanted/engineered/provoked this to happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean the officers had to oblige.

[Drs_Res]

The police can't win in this situation no matter what steps were taken, he would be crying excessive force.

You can't judge how strong a person is by the way they look. I know a wiry looking guy who is much stronger than he looks. He had no training as far as fighting goes, and I saw him kick the (rule10) of a black belt.

You can't judge his intentions just because he was being a loudmouth either.

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

The police can't win in this situation no matter what steps were taken, he would be crying excessive force.

You can't judge how strong a person is by the way they look. I know a wiry looking guy who is much stronger than he looks. He had no training as far as fighting goes, and I saw him kick the (rule10) of a black belt.

You can't judge his intentions just because he was being a loudmouth either.

True enough, but in the UK the police err on the side of caution. Again not a criticism, but just the way we're used to doing things. I believe the regulations for UK police use of tazers are nearly as strict - or similar - to use of firearms, but I'd have to confirm.

[chillzero]

Multiple officers had him restrained and on the floor.

He was cuffed.

He could easily have been hoisted and carried out, as officers are supposed to be trained in handling passive protest.

The taser was unnecessary.

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

Multiple officers had him restrained and on the floor.

He was cuffed.

He could easily have been hoisted and carried out, as officers are supposed to be trained in handling passive protest.

Agreed.

The taser was unnecessary.

Agreed; but amusing. :D

[cloudshipsrule]

If you think you can form a complete and adequate picture of Andrew from that website, you are the idiot.


I didn't form the picture solely from the website. His actions coupled with his website and history form a fairly accurate picture.

He deserved every volt.

[JimBenArm]

Why is this still going on here? These were campus cops, just barely above rent-a-cops, so they aren't exactly trained like regular real-life police. The guy was a jackass, and wanted to cause a confrontation. In my book, the fact he didn't get a retroactive abortion performed on him by these barely-trained imitation police officers is something he should be eternally grateful for! So comparing them to your police officers is not a fair comparison, and is not indicative of how our real police would probably handled the situation.
And I still say if he'd cut in line ahead of me, I'd have tasered him myself. Probably on his gonads, just for my own entertainment!

[Checkmite]

The only way this video could've been any better is if the psycho got tased at the end:

zA1hyqA6UTY

[WildCat]

The present case proves the point: six armed policemen holding one little boy claim that they are so threatened that the use of a potentially lethal device is authorised.
Did you even watch the video? The "little boy" is a 21 year old man who towered over all of the officers. And he is obviously resisting arrest. I really don't se what the issue is here. There's another thread here where a man got arrested waiting in line for the Petreus report. the cops did not use a taser or even a billy club, but the man broke his ankle when the cops brought him down. There is no risk-free manner of actively resistiong arrest, you do it and you take your chances.

Note the size of this guy compared to the officers who approach him, note how he starts swinging his elbows at the female officer. This was not a peaceful protestor passively resisting.
6bVa6jn4rpE

[WildCat]

The police can't win in this situation no matter what steps were taken, he would be crying excessive force.
Exactly. And it disturbs me how many people think the police should be regarded as human punching bags who should just take whatever this idiot throws at them.

[Wartrac]

Multiple officers had him restrained and on the floor.

He was cuffed.

He could easily have been hoisted and carried out, as officers are supposed to be trained in handling passive protest.

The taser was unnecessary.

OR....when told "stop resisting or you will Tasered" he could have just stopped moving and shut up.

However, it did make me laugh watching it again cause it made me think of this............

Help! Help! I'm being oppressed! Violence inherent in the system!
Violence inherent in the system!

http://www.earlham.edu/~herdda/Pages/beingrep.jpg

[chillzero]

OR....when told "stop resisting or you will Tasered" he could have just stopped moving and shut up.

Oh, I agree he should have, however, I still feel they resorted to weaponry without enough cause.

[DGM]

Oh, I agree he should have, however, I still feel they resorted to weaponry without enough cause.
But what is "enough" cause? That's the problem. If this guy had a weapon (hypothetical) and Kerry was hurt everyone would be all over the cops for not doing enough.

This goes along with the foreknowledge of 9/11. The government didn't protect us by not reacting to threats, oh by the way don't infringe on my rights. They should have done X it's obvious just look at what ended up happening.

It's all speculation on our part what was appropriate in this case, but just blaming the cop is wrong, we were not in their shoes.

[chillzero]

But what is "enough" cause? That's the problem. If this guy had a weapon (hypothetical) and Kerry was hurt everyone would be all over the cops for not doing enough.

This goes along with the foreknowledge of 9/11. The government didn't protect us by not reacting to threats, oh by the way don't infringe on my rights. They should have done X it's obvious just look at what ended up happening.

It's all speculation on our part what was appropriate in this case, but just blaming the cop is wrong, we were not in their shoes.

He didn't have a weapon. By the time he was tasered he was on the floor, cuffed.

I think comparing this to 911 is a bit of a stretch.

[Wartrac]

Oh, I agree he should have, however, I still feel they resorted to weaponry without enough cause.

Do I think he could have been hauled out of there without it? Yes. But if you are prone and not standing up when told to when cuffed, that is also resisting. With him kicking like that they couldn't get ankle shackles on him to allow him to be carried out. Any normal person when told that you will be shocked if you don't comply will comply.

Heh cops don't bluff.

[nlarosa]

The kid was asking for it. So they gave it to him, and now he is making a big deal about it. Laff it was funny watching the videos of this idiot.

[cloudshipsrule]

By the time he was tasered he was on the floor, cuffed.

It's my understanding that the cops were asking him to place his hands behind his back so that they could cuff him, and he wouldn't not do it. The taser came after he continued resisting. The cuffs came after the taser.

[CurtC]

One of the videos, the one taken near the spot where he was wrestled down, shows that the cops were warning him to keep his hands behind his back, but he wasn't cooperating. After some struggle, he pulled one of his arms loose and turned his body so his chest was not longer on the floor, and his left arm was free. It was at that point that he got zapped. He was not yet cuffed.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

He also broke free of the police as they were escorting him out... Isn't there a crime about disobeying a police officer?

[boloboffin]

I didn't form the picture solely from the website. His actions coupled with his website and history form a fairly accurate picture.

He deserved every volt.

Who the [rule10] made you judge, jury, and executioner?

[chillzero]

One of the videos, the one taken near the spot where he was wrestled down, shows that the cops were warning him to keep his hands behind his back, but he wasn't cooperating. After some struggle, he pulled one of his arms loose and turned his body so his chest was not longer on the floor, and his left arm was free. It was at that point that he got zapped. He was not yet cuffed.

OK - the one I saw made it seem as if he had been cuffed. My apologies . :)

[T.A.M.]

"Tasing" someone, while it seems horrible, is actually one of the few, non-lethal and immediate ways we have of restraining/controlling a combative individual. I say "we" because when I worked in Emerg a few years ago, Restraining/controlling combative individuals (often schizophrenics in full blown psychosis) was something we had to do quite often. I once had a schizophrenic lunge at me and threaten to break my neck. Luckily there were two cops just outside the exam room. They came in, but eventually I had to load the guy up on Lorazepam and Olanzepine to get him settled...that took 20 minutes. "Tasing" takes seconds, and can be quite successful wrt controlling such a person/patient.

My opinions above, in no way, are to be taken as an Endorsement or a Criticism of the events directly related to this Andrew Meyer fellow.

TAM:)

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

OK - the one I saw made it seem as if he had been cuffed. My apologies

I thought that too! Still think tazering was unjustified in a practical sense. Morally - they SHOULD have aimed for the lunchbox.

[cloudshipsrule]

Who the [rule10] made you judge, jury, and executioner?

My mom.

[boloboffin]

My mom.

I bow to your utter immaturity.

[cloudshipsrule]

While I firmly believe that typing '[rule10]' in your original message was extremely mature, I thank you for your compliment.

[GreNME]

I thought that too! Still think tazering was unjustified in a practical sense. Morally - they SHOULD have aimed for the lunchbox.

The problem is that police, as much as I may dislike a large number of them, are at a disadvantage in any public situation involving citizens who are protesting, speaking out on a proverbial soapbox, or having to run security like the Q&A session in the video. It's a disadvantage I think should exist, but the reality is that their options for appropriate and legal reactions to the kind of behavior that kid was exhibiting are very few, and most of them would have been viewed as excessive force if the kid's behavior throughout was being excused as only being eccentric.

He wasn't even escorted out for the questions he was asking. It's doubtful the cops gave a hoot about it. He was asked to leave because he was continually being a 'Summer's Eve' with body language and was trying to monopolize the speaking engagement. When the asking to leave turned into telling, he became belligerent and his body language was wild enough that it constituted being man(or boy)handled. After that point he was driving that semi that was his ego directly into the tunnel of resisting an officer and resisting arrest.

At 21 years old, it is expected that a person in the venue they were located behave at least somewhat like a civilized adult. Being an arm-waving, belligerent, loudmouth jerk is just asking for a whoopin, and he got off way lighter than he could have with his antics.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

To the Anti-Tase-ers: What force should a police officer use when unable to control an unruly, and resisting person?

A taser has less lasting effects (and is still less deadly) than a few punches, a baton, a gun, etc. This guy KNEW he had to make a show of it to further his agenda (The agenda of Woo).

I think he got what he deserved... But unfortunately he also got what he DIDN'T deserve... Publicity.

[T.A.M.]

The problem is that police, as much as I may dislike a large number of them, are at a disadvantage in any public situation involving citizens who are protesting, speaking out on a proverbial soapbox, or having to run security like the Q&A session in the video. It's a disadvantage I think should exist, but the reality is that their options for appropriate and legal reactions to the kind of behavior that kid was exhibiting are very few, and most of them would have been viewed as excessive force if the kid's behavior throughout was being excused as only being eccentric.

He wasn't even escorted out for the questions he was asking. It's doubtful the cops gave a hoot about it. He was asked to leave because he was continually being a 'Summer's Eve' with body language and was trying to monopolize the speaking engagement. When the asking to leave turned into telling, he became belligerent and his body language was wild enough that it constituted being man(or boy)handled. After that point he was driving that semi that was his ego directly into the tunnel of resisting an officer and resisting arrest.

At 21 years old, it is expected that a person in the venue they were located behave at least somewhat like a civilized adult. Being an arm-waving, belligerent, loudmouth jerk is just asking for a whoopin, and he got off way lighter than he could have with his antics.

I highlighted a part of your post only to ask why you would dislike "many" police officers??? Have you had so many bad experiences with them as to tar so many with the "dislike" brush.

When I was 16 I disliked them as well...because they represented authority. Now I greatly respect and appreciate them for what they do, and for THE MOST PART, how they do it.

TAM:)

[chran]

Good thing I weren't there - I would have been screaming "Squeal Piggy, squeal!!!" at the top of my lungs :D

[Jimbo07]

He wasn't even escorted out for the questions he was asking. It's doubtful the cops gave a hoot about it.

This is probably the case. In Canada at least, cops are individuals, recruited from all walks of life with differing interests and political views. It's possible that a cop even agreed with this guy that Kerry should have been president, Bush should be impeached, etc., etc.

[cloudshipsrule]

I think he got what he deserved... But unfortunately he also got what he DIDN'T deserve... Publicity.

Amen.

[GreNME]

I highlighted a part of your post only to ask why you would dislike "many" police officers??? Have you had so many bad experiences with them as to tar so many with the "dislike" brush.

When I was 16 I disliked them as well...because they represented authority. Now I greatly respect and appreciate them for what they do, and for THE MOST PART, how they do it.

TAM:)

I was all anti-authority during my teens as well. I grew out of that. There are many police who I have met and have had the opportunity to know who are genuinely doing what they do because they want to be peacekeepers, to be a force of "good" (or at least law) in their city or state, and try very hard to remember that they are representatives of the municipality where they are serving, not just some dude with a badge and uniform. However, having travelled throughout a number of parts of the US and noticed quite a few common traits, I've come to the conclusion that an unfortunate number of those who bother to go through academy for a job that usually pays enough to "get by" for the first 5-10 years are usually people who are attracted to an assumed sense of dominance. Even though I am at an age and in a position (white male, middle-class, don't break the law) where I have nothing to fear from the police, I still don't like to see the signs of the "boys club" or the tendency to be far more critical to people of darker skin tones. I am bothered that I can get through a courtroom weapons check in the space of a couple of minutes, but greater than half that number of times my own cousin (of mixed ethnicity) is guaranteed to receive greater scrutiny-- and I am the one with somewhere between 10-15 lbs. of metal parts in various parts of my body.

It's not an individual dislike of any cop I meet. It's a general dislike that I assign proportions to. I defer to law enforcement officers in anything from a traffic stop to border guards, and have had to deal with detectives (for help with some threatening harrassment and once for identity theft) with the same deferral. Of course, I can do that because I don't have anything to worry about. I don't do anything wrong. I'm not a candidate for any kind of discrimination. If anything, when I'm wearing my work clothes (business casual) I probably get preferential treatment.

I don't know if you've ever seen it, but Chris Rock has a skit called something to the effect of "How to Not Get Your [something] Beat By the Police." It's a pretty funny piece. It also contains a few subtle insinuations in it that I thought were clever of him to include in a way that had the tiny bit of social commentary but still parsed in a humorous manner. It seemed to me that the skit implied the same thing that I believe, which is basically that not all people are starting from a "level playing field" when dealing with law enforcement. I firmly believe that, and it kinda bugs me.

To turn that around, though: this is exactly why the student in that video, in my opinion, deserves all of the criticism and the police in that situation were responding completely in an appropriate manner. The kid started off with far more leeway than he probably should have had, since the physical histrionics were useless and just made him seem like he was attention whoring. Had he been asked to finish up his words and leave and he actually left, he would have had no problem with law enforcement or anyone else. If he still got to the point where he was being escorted off and he didn't resist or behave aggressively at all, he would have had zero problem with law enforcement or anone else. I would even bet that he could have gotten to the point where more than one officer was pulling him away and after that point offering no more physical resistance while still getting away with no trouble from the police or anyone else. He basically had total control of his destiny up to and even beyond the point where he was tasered, and he blew it all on his lonesome.

[Irony]

For those of you going on about how the police were wrong for using a "weapon" to restrain him, would you feel better if they had dislocated his shoulders instead? Punched him in the kidney? Surrounded him and kicked till he stopped moving?

When a *dun-dun-dunnnnnn* "weapon" is the least harmful way of restraining someone who is resisting arrest then I don't see how a "weapon" qualifies as unnecessary force.

[Corsair 115]

What, no one uses a squirt of pepper spray to the eyes to disable a suspect anymore?

:D

[eeyore1954]

I think the UF jackass was handled quite effectively. Just because he screams like a schoolgirl doesn't prove otherwise.


Don't you think he was screaming like that to dramatize the whole situation. He was moaning ow loudly long before they tasered him. I suspect he planned to cause a disturbance hopefully to get it on tape. Maybe he didn't expect the taser though.

Police have atough job and they had no way of knowing he wasn't a danger to Kerry or members of the audience and his irrational behavior gave them causefor concern. But I think when they had him on the floor surrounded the danger of the situation was under control and they should have spent more time before he was tasered. He was being repeatedly warned and showed no sign of cooperating. If they had waited I think eventually he would have got it anyway.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

What, no one uses a squirt of pepper spray to the eyes to disable a suspect anymore?

:D

Well, then the Q&A with John Kerry would be over, and multiple people (including the cops) may have to be treated for maceface.

Mace has an area affect to it, and can still cause watering eyes after people have cleared the area, especially indoors.

[Wartrac]

I heard if the Taser didn't work they were going to use a mini-nuke next.

[SDC]

Look, what is this "screams like a schoolgirl" nonsense, used as a pejorative expression? Semi-seriously. And I'm surprised that no women have objected to the usage. I object. I remember schoolboys screaming more than girls, when I was young.

More seriously, I'm a middle aged man and if I get tasered, I plan to howl like a banshee (sting like a butterfly, float like a bee...). Pain is not fun! There you have it.

[Corsair 115]

Well, then the Q&A with John Kerry would be over, and multiple people (including the cops) may have to be treated for maceface.No, not mace, pepper spray. A quick, close range squirt in the eyes keeps it localized and means a lot of unpleasant sensations for the person receiving the squirt.

If I recall correctly the police here (Toronto) carry such pepper spray in addition to their firearms; tasers are still limited to the ETF.

[60hzxtl]

Kerry knew and Let it Happen on Purpose.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Look, what is this "screams like a schoolgirl" nonsense, used as a pejorative expression? Semi-seriously. And I'm surprised that no women have objected to the usage. I object. I remember schoolboys screaming more than girls, when I was young.

More seriously, I'm a middle aged man and if I get tasered, I plan to howl like a banshee (sting like a butterfly, float like a bee...). Pain is not fun! There you have it.

Well, there's a manly howl when you're in pain, and then there's the 6' tall man screaming like a 10 year old girl scream and whimper. This guy was the latter. A wuss.

It's not balls, if you don't have the common sense to realize what you're doing is ballsy. This guy seems to have issues with differentiating reality from his reality.

[Sabrina]

It's probably not available on YouTube yet, but I just saw another video on Headline News of an officer tasing a woman repeatedly (to be fair, she WAS being belligerent) but he went WAY over the line by holding it on her for at LEAST thirty seconds at a time, more than once (probably close to five or six times). In comparison, the UF student got, what, ten seconds of tasing ONE TIME?

I stand by my assertion; this guy's an attention you-know-what.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

It's probably not available on YouTube yet, but I just saw another video on Headline News of an officer tasing a woman repeatedly (to be fair, she WAS being belligerent) but he went WAY over the line by holding it on her for at LEAST thirty seconds at a time, more than once (probably close to five or six times). In comparison, the UF student got, what, ten seconds of tasing ONE TIME?

I stand by my assertion; this guy's an attention you-know-what.

Is this the one with the lady who was driving 70 in a 30mph zone, swerving in traffic, driving an unregistered/uninspected car, with a suspended license?

That one was funny... Especially when the cop said "Lady, we get tasered during our training, and it doesn't hurt THAT much." after she was screaming 10 minutes AFTER they stopped tasering her.

[Sabrina]

Nope. Officer responding to a disturbance in a bar or something (and yes, the woman WAS being belligerent, but not to the extent of needing to get tased five or six times for at least thirty seconds at a time, even AFTER she calmed down and was cooperating).

[cloudshipsrule]

"Mam, I'm only going to ask you ONE more time. Put down the cell phone and step out of the car."

FIVE REQUESTS later she got tased. She, too, deserved it if it's the video I'm thinking of. Her screams of pain sound really terrible in the video, but if she had only freakin' listened to the officer it could have all been avoided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUcIxSv_4Lo

I will agree that the second tasing may have been too long.

[Sabrina]

Not the same woman, sorry.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

"Mam, I'm only going to ask you ONE more time. Put down the cell phone and step out of the car."

FIVE REQUESTS later she got tased. She, too, deserved it if it's the video I'm thinking of. Her screams of pain sound really terrible in the video, but if she had only freakin' listened to the officer it could have all been avoided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUcIxSv_4Lo

I will agree that the second tasing may have been too long.

Yes! THat is it... It's also a lesson on why people should know what happened "Before the cameras start rolling" or in this case, "Before the clip starts".

[Sabrina]

I can see I'll have to do the search myself and post the actual video, if I can locate it. *L*

ETA: Linky! (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/09/20/sinkovich.woman.tasered.wytv)

[bjb]

While it's certainly hard to see most of it, the main reason he kept getting shocked was his refuse to stand up, hence the cop's repeated demands to "stand up or we'll taser you again." Do you also feel that the threat to taser the student who was questioning their actions and wanting their badge numbers was also inappropriate?

I disagree. You have to take all of his actions into account to understand what happened.

I went back and watched the video. Twice, this guy struggled, broke away from the cops, and tried to run toward the stage, right at John Kerry! He was told to obey instructions and stop resisting, which would have shown the cops that he was not irrational and did not need to be shocked. The real reason he was shocked was that he established a pattern of violent behavior and the cops had no choice but to restrain him.

Do you also feel that the threat to taser the student who was questioning their actions and wanting their badge numbers was also inappropriate?


I didn't see that happening in this video, but I did see the video from last year where a student got tasered at UCLA and campus cops did make that threat. In my opinion, the threat was not appropriate, to say the least.

[DGM]

A local radio station has been having fun with this. They even tazered one of the crew to see if it hurts.

The screem you hear is not from the person that got tazed.

http://wzlx.com/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=1009950

[Sabrina]

I disagree. You have to take all of his actions into account to understand what happened.

I went back and watched the video. Twice, this guy struggled, broke away from the cops, and tried to run toward the stage, right at John Kerry! He was told to obey instructions and stop resisting, which would have shown the cops that he was not irrational and did not need to be shocked. The real reason he was shocked was that he established a pattern of violent behavior and the cops had no choice but to restrain him.




I didn't see that happening in this video, but I did see the video from last year where a student got tasered at UCLA and campus cops did make that threat. In my opinion, the threat was not appropriate, to say the least.

I believe PW was referring ONLY to the UCLA student, not at all of the UF student. That being said, I agree with your first statement personally.

[dudalb]

I am cynical enough to suggest that if the guy in question had turned out to be right wing kook if would be getting the same amount of sympathy and support? SOmehow,despite the protests I know are coming,I doubt this....

[bjb]

You can't judge his intentions just because he was being a loudmouth either.

I believe it is fair to judge someone's intentions when they break away from the police and run towards the stage.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

I am cynical enough to suggest that if the guy in question had turned out to be right wing kook if would be getting the same amount of sympathy and support? SOmehow,despite the protests I know are coming,I doubt this....

You mean like when the right wing kook Alex Jones was arrested? Too bad he wasn't tasered into screaming like a little girl.

Maybe then his cultists would wake up, and realize what a tard their Dear Leader™ is.

[JimBenArm]

You mean like when the right wing kook Alex Jones was arrested? Too bad he wasn't tasered into screaming like a little girl.

Maybe then his cultists would wake up, and realize what a tard their Dear Leader™ is.
But he'd just fight them off with his luggage, so they'd never get close enough to tase him! He's too powerful for us!

[Sabrina]

Additional information on that woman I mentioned; apparently she was tased enough that she fell flat on her face and was knocked unconscious. And this was AFTER she was subdued and cooperating; he tased her again while she was walking to another police cruiser.

[DGM]

Additional information on that woman I mentioned; apparently she was tased enough that she fell flat on her face and was knocked unconscious. And this was AFTER she was subdued and cooperating; he tased her again while she was walking to another police cruiser.
If true than it sounds like excessive force. I don't think anyone said it doesn't happen. Just not in this case.

[Sabrina]

I posted the link on the CNN website up above in post #168 if you want to see it; it doesn't show the whole thing (they've only showed it about once on Headline News) but what's there is rather disturbing.

[defaultdotxbe]

i havent read the entire thread, a friend of mine just had me watch the video, on looking into it more it seems quite a bit happened before and after the youtube video (as well as during the 2 cuts in the video)

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/09/18/offense.report.072274.pdf

[mortimer]

i havent read the entire thread, a friend of mine just had me watch the video, on looking into it more it seems quite a bit happened before and after the youtube video (as well as during the 2 cuts in the video)

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/09/18/offense.report.072274.pdf

From the pdf:

Meyer was arrested and transported to AC/DC.

Seems he's on the Highway to Hell now...

[YCHTT]

You know what the best way not to get tazered is?


Doing what the cop tells you.

[60hzxtl]

"People who look for trouble with a search warrant generally find it." - George Ade apx 1907.

[roger]

You know what the best way not to get tazered is?


Doing what the cop tells you.But that's just what a police state would want you to do! [/truther]

[johnny karate]

You know what the best way not to get tazered is?


Doing what the cop tells you.

Succinct and to the point.

Whenever I hear about someone getting tasered, my first reaction is to think they probably deserved it and that the police officer acted in accordance with the law. And I usually turn out to be right.

[dudalb]

A problem is some people think anything is justfied if you call it "dissent".
You have a perfect right to dissent if you respect other people's rights in doing so.This guy was obviously being intentionally disruptive and was not.

[Jimbo07]

I don't know why people equate "making a fool out of oneself," with "political dissent."

He's so far from manning the barricades in the streets, that revolutionaries would be embarrassed to be associated with him...

[Mr. Skinny]

Why is this still going on here? These were campus cops, just barely above rent-a-cops, so they aren't exactly trained like regular real-life police. The guy was a jackass, and wanted to cause a confrontation. In my book, the fact he didn't get a retroactive abortion performed on him by these barely-trained imitation police officers is something he should be eternally grateful for! So comparing them to your police officers is not a fair comparison, and is not indicative of how our real police would probably handled the situation.
And I still say if he'd cut in line ahead of me, I'd have tasered him myself. Probably on his gonads, just for my own entertainment!
(bolding mine)

Jim,

You might be suprised at how well trained campus security officers can be.

I have no evidence regarding the training of these officers, much like you have no evidence of their lack-o-training. Calling them "rent-a-cops" and "barely trained imitation police" without evidence is pretty insulting sans evidence.

When I supervised 18 armed security guards at an industrial plant back in the late '70's, I began hiring people that had graduated from the police academy and were volunteers in their community police departments. I established a requirement that the qualify with their weapons at least twice per year. Bottom line, I didn't want the company to be liable for some stupid action taken by some "Gomer Pyle" rent-a-cop" with a gun.

That said, I imagine that security at a University is even more stringent. My guess is that many of their officers are volunteer/retired officers with considerable previous experience who have undergone background checks.

Anyhow, I'm just kinda disappointed to hear you throw these kinda statements around when you don't know diddly about their training.

[/rant]

[PhantomWolf]

I disagree. You have to take all of his actions into account to understand what happened.

I went back and watched the video. Twice, this guy struggled, broke away from the cops, and tried to run toward the stage, right at John Kerry! He was told to obey instructions and stop resisting, which would have shown the cops that he was not irrational and did not need to be shocked. The real reason he was shocked was that he established a pattern of violent behavior and the cops had no choice but to restrain him.

I think we are talking different videos, the one I am talking about was a UCLA student in what looked like the Library. The incident started because he refused to show the officers any ID and they then attempted to escort him out. Went he refused to cooperate by standing up, they started tasing him.

I didn't see that happening in this video, but I did see the video from last year where a student got tasered at UCLA and campus cops did make that threat. In my opinion, the threat was not appropriate, to say the least.

It's likely the one I mean, it was posted here on page 1 (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2979355#post2979355) You don't find it inappropriate to threaten someone with being tazed simply for demanding a cops badge number when they have been repeatedly tasing a guy in handcuffs on the ground because he won't stand up?

[PhantomWolf]

"Mam, I'm only going to ask you ONE more time. Put down the cell phone and step out of the car."

FIVE REQUESTS later she got tased. She, too, deserved it if it's the video I'm thinking of. Her screams of pain sound really terrible in the video, but if she had only freakin' listened to the officer it could have all been avoided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUcIxSv_4Lo

I will agree that the second tasing may have been too long.

Awww, the poor ole boy had to ask five times. I suppose it would have been fine to have wacked her in the head with his club for not getting off the phone too. Resorting to violence simply because you can't control a non-violent person is simply a cop out. How would he have handle the situation without a Taser? How would cops have done it back in the 90's? How do those in other countries deal with the same situation. Going for the Taser is an easy way out, and when it's known that it can be lethal, and there is no way of knowing if it is going to be so, using it on someone that is simply ignoring your demands is wrong.

[PhantomWolf]

You know what the best way not to get tazered is?


Doing what the cop tells you.

This might be true, but it doesn't mean that cops should taser people for not doing what they are told. This is my main problem. If the guy (or girl) is a threat and being violent, heck go for it, but tasing someone for simply not following instructions, for passive resistance, or threating a tasing for demanding your badge number, are all over the top actions that should not be acceptable. Why should people respect and accept a non-violence message for their own lives when their law enforcement regularly uses it?

[JimBenArm]

(bolding mine)

Jim,

You might be suprised at how well trained campus security officers can be.

I have no evidence regarding the training of these officers, much like you have no evidence of their lack-o-training. Calling them "rent-a-cops" and "barely trained imitation police" without evidence is pretty insulting sans evidence.

When I supervised 18 armed security guards at an industrial plant back in the late '70's, I began hiring people that had graduated from the police academy and were volunteers in their community police departments. I established a requirement that the qualify with their weapons at least twice per year. Bottom line, I didn't want the company to be liable for some stupid action taken by some "Gomer Pyle" rent-a-cop" with a gun.

That said, I imagine that security at a University is even more stringent. My guess is that many of their officers are volunteer/retired officers with considerable previous experience who have undergone background checks.

Anyhow, I'm just kinda disappointed to hear you throw these kinda statements around when you don't know diddly about their training.

[/rant]
:redface1 You are absolutely correct. I was out of line. Sorry.

[bjb]

You don't find it inappropriate to threaten someone with being tazed simply for demanding a cops badge number when they have been repeatedly tasing a guy in handcuffs on the ground because he won't stand up?

I have already answered that question. Go back and read it, carefully this time.

[Mr. Skinny]

:redface1 You are absolutely correct. I was out of line. Sorry.
You, sir, are a gentleman to admit that.

*moves JimBenArm up a couple of notches in the Skinny "respect* book*

[defaultdotxbe]

Awww, the poor ole boy had to ask five times. I suppose it would have been fine to have wacked her in the head with his club for not getting off the phone too. Resorting to violence simply because you can't control a non-violent person is simply a cop out. How would he have handle the situation without a Taser? How would cops have done it back in the 90's? How do those in other countries deal with the same situation. Going for the Taser is an easy way out, and when it's known that it can be lethal, and there is no way of knowing if it is going to be so, using it on someone that is simply ignoring your demands is wrong.
what should the cop have done in that situation?

wait politely until she was off the phone?

let her go since he cant ger her drivers liscense?

reach into the car and pull her out (putting himself at risk if she has a gun or knife handy)?

i know it seems excessive to use a taser because she wont hang up her phone but police dont have many alternatives, i am full yin agreement with YCHTT

You know what the best way not to get tazered is?


Doing what the cop tells you.

[PhantomWolf]

I have already answered that question. Go back and read it, carefully this time.

D'oh, my bad, the first time I read it, I did read it right, and then I read it a second time and misread it, so added the second part. :blush:

[PhantomWolf]

what should the cop have done in that situation?

wait politely until she was off the phone?

Would it have killed him to do so? He could have happily added a few zeros to the ticket afterwards.

i know it seems excessive to use a taser because she wont hang up her phone but police dont have many alternatives, i am full yin agreement with YCHTT

Perhaps, but then there are cops like this guy, no need to go for the Taser against this agressive driver.

JRRTlrfTw0s

[defaultdotxbe]

Would it have killed him to do so? He could have happily added a few zeros to the ticket afterwards.
personally i dont think police officers should have tot ake that kind of disrespect, sure in this case it was harmless, in others not so

Perhaps, but then there are cops like this guy, no need to go for the Taser against this agressive driver.

JRRTlrfTw0s
did they have tasers in 92?

[jab712]

First off, I want to state I certainly do not agree with repeated tasering. Obviously, there are times when police/rent a cops abuse their authority, as seen in some of the videos linked in this thread. As you all know, that is the exception and not the rule.

With regards to the most recent incident...

Could there be ways to stop the disruption without the use of the taser? Sure. However, just as there may have been a way to disfuse the stituation without a taser, it may escalated into something worse, had no taser been used. Each situation is different and there are plenty of gray areas. For ones trying to serve and protect, they certainly are getting a raw deal, they are damned if they do or damned if they don't.

The problem is you can't know in advance. You don't have a crystal ball that tells you "this guy here doesn't need to be tased (is that a word?)" or "this guy is going start hitting people if you don't taser him" or "this guy has a heart condition", etc.

What we do know, is that this guy is doing something wrong...PERIOD. He was being disruptive, he was resisting the police, he continued to be disruptive and continued to resist the police. He was clearly in the wrong. Him. Not the police/rent a cops/whatever they are. If he wasn't doing something wrong in the first place, and continued to do something wrong, it never would have gotten to the point of using the taser. You know, there are consequences for ones actions. He chose to continue his antics and he got zapped.

Had this guy gotten zapped with the taser over and over again after he had already cooperated with the police, I would say the cops were wrong. But that is not what happened.

Seriously, consequences for your actions. If you don't want to get hit with a billy club, zapped by taser or arrested, for that matter, ummm....don't resist the police. It's a simple concept...really it is.

[T.A.M.]

You know what the best way not to get tazered is?


Doing what the cop tells you.

Bingo.

TAM:)

[PhantomWolf]

personally i dont think police officers should have tot ake that kind of disrespect, sure in this case it was harmless, in others not so

I agree that people should not disrespect the Police, but at the same time aren't we trying to teach our kids that violence is not the answer? How can we expect our kids to behave like civilised people finding non-violent solutions to the situation, when law enforcement doesn't, and happily uses violence in situations that don't require it. (and especially when "we" then encourage and support the use of that violence for entertaimnet purposes.)

did they have tasers in 92?

It doesn't matter, the guy handled the situation calmly and rationally in the face of abuse and irrationality. He didn't raise his voice, he controlled the situation and didn't enflame it further, resulting in one of the best peices of police work I have ever seen. This incident so easily could have gotten out of control with a lesser officer. Instead he remained composed and did his job without letting the nut get to him. Many of the officers we have been talking about would have ended up causing this situation to enflame, endangering both the driver and themselves, and likely resulting in serious charges against the driver. It's the difference between a good cop who understands how to manage the situation and those that haven't got a clue.

[Redtail]

Oh wait he was a Gator? Yeah tase him again. Starts Seminole war chant.

[boloboffin]

It's the difference between a good cop who understands how to manage the situation and those that haven't got a clue.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/boloboffin2/Tazed1.png

"Wheeehaa! I just tazed me a sum[rule10]!"

John Stewart summed this up rather well for me. It's a combination of excessive force and student douchebaggery. Knowing no way to ever reduce the amount of the latter, I choose to point out the faults of the former.

[Redtail]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/boloboffin2/Tazed1.png

"Wheeehaa! I just tazed me a sum[rule10]!"

John Stewart summed this up rather well for me. It's a combination of excessive force and student douchebaggery. Knowing no way to ever reduce the amount of the latter, I choose to point out the faults of the former.

Wow, I agree. That's a good point Jon has there.

[boloboffin]

Wow, I agree. That's a good point Jon has there.

Just be clear, the last sentence is all me, as far as I know. The Jon quote stops at douchebaggery, as many great one-liners do.

[Axiom_Blade]

Well, there's a manly howl when you're in pain, and then there's the 6' tall man screaming like a 10 year old girl scream and whimper. This guy was the latter. A wuss.

Really?
How do you sound after you've been tasered?

[Redtail]

Just be clear, the last sentence is all me, as far as I know. The Jon quote stops at douchebaggery, as many great one-liners do.

In that case you both have good points.:)

[GreNME]

Really?
How do you sound after you've been tasered?

I posit I would sound like some unholy mix of Pavarotti and a cat in heat. I don't know how manly or schoogirly that would count toward.

[CurtC]

By the way, I have heard of multiple cases of people who were trying to resist arrest, dying when the police restrained them by holding them down. There's a small risk with the taser, but don't forget that there is also a risk to just physically restraining him while you struggle to get the cuffs on.

[psyexplorer]

They should install a taser jack in the cars. Then you can just plug them in for the ride.

[OMGturt1es]

By the way, I have heard of multiple cases of people who were trying to resist arrest, dying when the police restrained them by holding them down. There's a small risk with the taser, but don't forget that there is also a risk to just physically restraining him while you struggle to get the cuffs on.

exactly.

i've been under the impression the point of tasering is to minimize the risk of harm to both the suspect and the involved officers. when officers must man handle a suspect, the risk of injury increases-- especially for the suspect. that's when bones break, etc.

admittedly, i don't have any real data with which to back up my claims, so they're just assumptions, but i think they're rather evident. self compliance seems the better route for avoiding long term injuries, even if it is acheived through short term pain.

in the this case, i think the justification for tasering depends entirely on what this whack job was doing while on the ground, and the video simply does not show this information. was he keeping his arms locked under him, and refusing to be escorting out or cuffed? was he purposely throwing himself to the floor to prevent being removed from the event? or were ths cops simply venting their frustrations?

i don't think we really know, so i don't think we have the evidence with which to avoid conjecture. then again, i've been busy, and not up on the evidence...

[WildCat]

did they have tasers in 92?
They did in LA during the Rodney King incident...

[1337m4n]

I've never understood the position of supporters of tazer bans. Yes, the tazer can be dangerous, but if you take away the tazer, what do the cops have left? Their pistols. Which are a heck of a lot MORE dangerous.

In any case, I concur with John Stewart on this one. Student was a dumb[rule10], cop was a dumb[rule10]. Not an issue of "free speech" or "censorship", just an issue of natural human stupidity.

[CurtC]

in the this case, i think the justification for tasering depends entirely on what this whack job was doing while on the ground, and the video simply does not show this information. was he keeping his arms locked under him, and refusing to be escorting out or cuffed? was he purposely throwing himself to the floor to prevent being removed from the event?
One of the videos shows this part pretty clearly. He was being held on the ground, chest down, and the cops were struggling to get his arms behind his back to cuff him. The lady cop was standing over his head, explaining fairly calmly that he had to put his hands behind his back. He then pulled his left arm free, rolled over onto his right side, and was still yelling while flailing his left arm around at the cops. Very shortly after this he was successfully subdued.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

They did in LA during the Rodney King incident...

Tasers vs. 300 lbs man on PCP

Tasers lose.

[SDC]

This just turned up: an MIT student with a fake bomb, as "art," at Logan. The girl behaved sensibly, it seems, when ordered. But you have to ask: what possesses people to do things like this? (And as a parent I ask: why didn't she learn better sense?) http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Fake-Bomb.html

[Unsecured Coins]

Starts Seminole war chant.

:D

[dudalb]

This just turned up: an MIT student with a fake bomb, as "art," at Logan. The girl behaved sensibly, it seems, when ordered. But you have to ask: what possesses people to do things like this? (And as a parent I ask: why didn't she learn better sense?) http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Fake-Bomb.html

I have problems figuring how anybody who could get into MIT could do something so screamingly stupid.
Well she will be suffering a fairly steep fine and public embarassment for her "art". Not quite as good as Van Gogh cutting off his ear,but nearly as crazy.

[Mr. Skinny]

I've never understood the position of supporters of tazer bans. Yes, the tazer can be dangerous, but if you take away the tazer, what do the cops have left? Their pistols. Which are a heck of a lot MORE dangerous.
Agree 100%. Back in my (pre-taser) cop days, if I had to subdue someone, I basically had the option of striking them with my fist (I wore sap glove), striking them with a metal flashlight (4 D cells), striking them with a PR-24 baton, macing them, or shooting them, depending on the level of resistance. All of those methods put me at risk.

First, I'm a lightweight and a punch from me might not get the job done. Second, a club or flashlight requires close in contact as well. One or both of us are going to get hurt. Third, mace is hard to use. It doesn't always incapacitate an extremely agitated person, you have to hope you are upwind of the subject or you risk macing yourself.

Typically, you'd just hope a back-up officer arrives in time, then you'd gang tackle the subject and hope to limit their ability to fight until you could cuff them.

I wish tazers had been invented back then. It's a non-lethal weapon that allows the officer stand-off distance from the subject. I don't have stats, but I'd guess that there are fewer deaths and serious injuries from tazers than from saps (and sap gloves), billy clubs, and metal flashlights.

[Alareth]

On a side note, I logged into Lord of the Rings Online last night and there was a character standing there with the surname, Donttasemebro.

You may now return to the previous well considered conversation.

[PhantomWolf]

I've never understood the position of supporters of tazer bans. Yes, the tazer can be dangerous, but if you take away the tazer, what do the cops have left? Their pistols. Which are a heck of a lot MORE dangerous.

I don't think anyone here has advocated the banning of tasers, merely the more responsible use of them. Try not to get the two things confused.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

ya know what's funny about watching someone get tasered?


everything.

When I came across the video, I called over my parents and sister and put on the speakers full blast. They belly laughed from start to finish.

This full of himself douchebag couldn't have been a better victim if he had yelled "I'll sue you, you'll see!"

[portlandatheist]

Further, to simply comply with police when no crime has been commited is in no way required of an American citizen. Why should you?
Um, Smiledriver, perhaps you missed your civics lessons as a child but I've got news for you, it is serious crime to resist arrest regardless if you are guilty of any crime or not. I know of no country in the world that operates otherwise. Why is this the case? Consider the following scenario:
You have committed no crime whatsoever but there was an armed robbery and you match the superficial description of the suspect. The advantages of this law are numerous:
1. Lack of ambiguity. The cop knows he can arrest you and you know you have an obligation to comply should they choose to do so. Expectations are clear and the cop doesn't need to second guess if he needs to follow through an arrest or not in the event that the suspect may turn out to be not guilty in the end.
2. Less violence and conflict. With the lack of ambiguity in point number one the situation is less likely to escalate. If innocent people felt they could resist arrest, there would be much more conflict between police and civilians.
3. Efficiency. In the above situation, the police would arrest you and clear you in an efficient manner rather than waste time on a chase, resistance, and/or possible violence.
4. Likely many more reasons I haven't thought of.

The attitude that you have the right to resist arrest if you haven't committed any crime is that of a spoiled and naive child and I'm wondering what gave you the notion that it is reasonable and legal to resist arrest because this notion is dangerous both for law enforcement and for the citizenry. This bogus belief can only lead to more conflict and violence between police and citizens.

[Drs_Res]

Okay, I just had to post this....The remix
AkMkGOpAF4s

But, being serious now, a different version with more video before the incident:

LmvCHAaKGyk

[gumboot]

I'm going to repost what I posted to the political forum here.

Tasing someone for failing to follow your instructions is a total cop out (pun sorta intended.) If you can't get someone to follow instructions and calm a situation down without a need to resort to weapondry (instead of nearly starting a riot and threatening anyone that quesions your actions with Tazing themselves) then you shouldn't be a cop in the first place.



An interesting post, PhantomWolf, but I think you're missing some basic elements that are quite important.

1) New Zealand has a single police force, rather than many dozens of police forces. It is not fair to collectively lump all US law enforcement officers together in one boat. They are not a single collective group.

2) New Zealand has, until recently, had a society that was highly respectful of the police, and even authority in general. This has never been so in the USA.

3) Firearms are far more strictly controlled in New Zealand, and the chances of a New Zealand police officer facing an armed person is very slim, compared with US police in some places who probably deal with armed persons on a daily basis.

4) Fatalities are only one aspect of police violence. As one would expect, emergency care is always quick to arrive if police are already on the scene (having the advantage of radios). While not many New Zealand police officers are killed, rates of violence against New Zealand police officers are rising every year, and are the reason behind a number of measures in recent years, including:
A) Fire arms located in all incident cars
B) Stab-proof vests
C) Pepper spray
D) Tasers
All of the above are new measures, taken in direct response to significant increases in violence against police officers.

The reason incidents like this seem to happen in the USA and not in New Zealand is for a number of reasons:

1) The USA is a much larger country, so at a basic statistical level such incidents are more common.
2) The USA is a much more diverse country, with a long history of volatile interaction between different social groups.
3) Mistrust of authority appears to be a foundation component of the American psyche, which it is not in New Zealand.

To automatically assume all of this is a result of "your cops suck and ours are great" seems, to me, to be reducing the situation to a level of simplicity that makes the observation totally worthless.

(For what it's worth I've witnessed, and heard of a lot of situations just like this involving New Zealand police in which the "victims" screamed "police brutality" and frankly got what they deserved - and let's not forget the entire "police chases" topic which flares up in our media on a regular basis).

-Gumboot

[NoZed Avenger]

So, in other words, someone needs to taser Bill O'Reilly as soon as possible, for the good of society? :D

Finally, something that people of all political stripes can come together and agree on.

[cloudshipsrule]

The attitude that you have the right to resist arrest if you haven't committed any crime is that of a spoiled and naive child and I'm wondering what gave you the notion that it is reasonable and legal to resist arrest because this notion is dangerous both for law enforcement and for the citizenry.

This is a great way to put it. It's becoming more and more evident that todays youth are being taught that to disrespect authority is somehow the right thing to do. It's especially evident in schools where adult teachers are given zero respect by many students. (A huge shift from previous generations.)

This lack of respect is having a huge, negative impact on the culture in America. People don't know how to respect other people anymore, and the end result is an uncivilized, lousy culture. Road rage, people getting tasered for not obeying an officer, etc. It's only going to get more difficult for police officers to do their job as this disrespectful attitude becomes more widespread.

Time to up the voltage!

[1337m4n]

This is a great way to put it. It's becoming more and more evident that todays youth are being taught that to disrespect authority is somehow the right thing to do. It's especially evident in schools where adult teachers are given zero respect by many students. (A huge shift from previous generations.)

This lack of respect is having a huge, negative impact on the culture in America. People don't know how to respect other people anymore, and the end result is an uncivilized, lousy culture. Road rage, people getting tasered for not obeying an officer, etc. It's only going to get more difficult for police officers to do their job as this disrespectful attitude becomes more widespread.

Time to up the voltage!

I never thought I'd find myself saying this...but I almost think it was better when it was accepted practice for parents to whip disobedient kids with their belts.

Don't get me wrong, though: the problem is probably much more complicated than a simple lack of discipline. I'm just sayin...

[psyexplorer]

The problem is the selection process used to hire police officers.

[Mr. Skinny]

The problem is the selection process used to hire police officers.
The selection process where, exactly?

Also, please state the problems with the process.

[cloudshipsrule]

Don't get me wrong, though: the problem is probably much more complicated than a simple lack of discipline. I'm just sayin...


How does that old saying go again??

"Spare the rod, use the taser when they're in college."

I agree that philosophies like those of ole' Doc Spock are responsible for a lot of the discipline problems we're seeing today.

If the idiot had been respectful of the officers we wouldn't be having this conversation via this thread!

[defaultdotxbe]

How does that old saying go again??

"Spare the rod, use the taser when they're in college."

I agree that philosophies like those of ole' Doc Spock are responsible for a lot of the discipline problems we're seeing today.
yeah, it seems like a lot of these stunts are happening because the people expect the cops to send them to their room without desert and they get a spanking instead

[PhantomWolf]

yeah, it seems like a lot of these stunts are happening because the people expect the cops to send them to their room without desert and they get a spanking instead

Actually I disagree, I think that most people act like this because they know that the police will over-react and thus they'll make a bigger story and publicity. Would we be having this thread if the police had tackled and dropped him on the floor, handcuffed him and dragged him out of the building? Likely not, but get them to taser you (not very hard these days) and you hit the national headlines.

Over here it's car chases, all the young kids know that if you drive dangerously the cops will back off and let you go, so what do they do when the cops flash their lights? They hoon off and drive at danager speeds then kill themselves when they lose control.

We're training people to act this way by setting the procedures that encourage it. If the yobbos that are there purely to make a scene knew that they were only going to get a boot in the backside as they flew out the door rather than spectaular video of the cops torturing them, they wouldn't do it.

[CurtC]

Would we be having this thread if the police had tackled and dropped him on the floor, handcuffed him and dragged him out of the building? Likely not
Wasn't that exactly what the cops were trying to do?

In your scenario, what should the cops have done if, while they were trying to handcuff him, he had fought them off, gotten one arm loose, and turned himself up off the floor? 'Cause that's exactly what happened.

[GreNME]

The selection process where, exactly?

Also, please state the problems with the process.

It's in our high schools, man... </hippy>

Honestly, though, I don't think radically altering the selection process is going to do much to change things for police. The requirements to qualify as an officer are pretty basic, but it should be expected that the most prevalent representatives of law enforcement be equally representative of the populations in which they are posted. That tends to be the methodology in most police departments, so I don't think there's a huge problem there.

The main problem that contributes to any bad seed that might get into the force is that the job is a position of authority, and as such can be attractive to people who are attracted to authority over others. More often than not, though, police forces are comprised of the other type of person who generally means well and just wants to do a good job. Despite my own feelings about police in general (see a few pages back) I recognize that they have a tough job and as such I make it a point not to give cops a hard time on any occassion.

[PhantomWolf]

Wasn't that exactly what the cops were trying to do?

In your scenario, what should the cops have done if, while they were trying to handcuff him, he had fought them off, gotten one arm loose, and turned himself up off the floor? 'Cause that's exactly what happened.

That's where you need the good ole PR-24 baton which you use as a restraint. He'd stop struggling pretty quick because a restraining hold using one of those can be exceeding painful if you struggle against it, but it is the restrainee who gets to control that level of pain, not the restrainer. If the guy dislocates his shoulder or breaks his arm attempting to break the hold, that's his fault, he put the pressure on his on body, not the cop. Hence why I have been saying all along that it comes down to training.

Note also that I haven't actually bothered watching the first posted video, and by all accounts it seems dumb protester meets dumb cop, my points have been about the wider field where the situations haven't been anywhere near as confrontational, ie a student being repeatedly tazed for refusing to stand up when ordered too after refusing to show ID, a student being threatened with a tazer for demanding a cop's badge number, and a women tazed after repeatedly being asked to hang up her cellphone. In these incidents it was over the top, there are obviously cases that would require it. Over here (quite near me) we had a case where a guy attacked a pair of officers with a aluminium baseball bat after having thrown a golf club at them. He'd likely still be alive today had they had tasers instead of firearms. As I have repeatedly said, I'm not opposed to them, merely the inappropriate use of them.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g171/boloboffin2/Tazed1.png

"Wheeehaa! I just tazed me a sum[rule10]!"


I'm really not sure why people think that cop is smiling, especially out of enjoyment.

[boloboffin]

I'm really not sure why people think that cop is smiling, especially out of enjoyment.

Well, he certainly isn't grimacing from a distasteful task, the way his fellow officer is. :rolleyes:

[CurtC]

That's where you need the good ole PR-24 baton which you use as a restraint. He'd stop struggling pretty quick because a restraining hold using one of those can be exceeding painful if you struggle against it, but it is the restrainee who gets to control that level of pain, not the restrainer. If the guy dislocates his shoulder or breaks his arm attempting to break the hold, that's his fault,So why would a baton be better than a taser in this case? It seems like you're recommending a method that results in more injuries.




my points have been about the wider field where the situations haven't been anywhere near as confrontational, ie a student being repeatedly tazed for refusing to stand up when ordered too after refusing to show ID, a student being threatened with a tazer for demanding a cop's badge number, and a women tazed after repeatedly being asked to hang up her cellphone.Well, I've been referring this whole time to this particular incident at a John Kerry speech. The use of the taser, to me, was clearly appropriate here.

[R.A.F.]

The attitude that you have the right to resist arrest if you haven't committed any crime is that of a spoiled and naive child and I'm wondering what gave you the notion that it is reasonable and legal to resist arrest because this notion is dangerous both for law enforcement and for the citizenry.

This is the exact point that a lot of people seem to be missing. The only "defense" this kid has is if he "somehow" didn't understand that the police were instructing him to stop what he was doing.

...and that is obviously not the case since he was resisting.

It's pretty simple...the police instruct you to do something, you do it. If you have a "problem" with what you were instructed to do, then bring that up in court.

[PhantomWolf]

So why would a baton be better than a taser in this case? It seems like you're recommending a method that results in more injuries.

Not really, it would only result in an injury -if- the restrainee caused it. When you are restrained by a baton, attempting to move causes pain, stopping that movement stops the pain, you are in total control of how much pain you feel or don't feel by your actions. With a Taser there is no such control, the restrainer is the one with the power to determine if and when you feel that pain, and they cannot mitigate or lessen that pain, it's an all or nothing deal. Note here that I'm talking about using the baton as a restraining device, not as a club to beat the restrainee. A well trained person with a PR-24 can have you on the floor and restrained and ready for handcuffs before you could decide it was time to resist, all without using it as a striking weapon, not only have I seen it done, but I have had a little practice with it, and had it demonstrated on me. I know better than to argue with a well-trained cop over here. ;)

[cloudshipsrule]

When you are restrained by a baton, attempting to move causes pain, stopping that movement stops the pain, you are in total control of how much pain you feel or don't feel by your actions.

On a similar note, had the idiot not resisted arrest he would not have simply stopped the pain he received, he would have prevented it all together. He was in total control of how much pain he felt!

[technoextreme]

Not really, it would only result in an injury -if- the restrainee caused it. When you are restrained by a baton, attempting to move causes pain, stopping that movement stops the pain, you are in total control of how much pain you feel or don't feel by your actions. With a Taser there is no such control, the restrainer is the one with the power to determine if and when you feel that pain, and they cannot mitigate or lessen that pain, it's an all or nothing deal. Note here that I'm talking about using the baton as a restraining device, not as a club to beat the restrainee. A well trained person with a PR-24 can have you on the floor and restrained and ready for handcuffs before you could decide it was time to resist, all without using it as a striking weapon, not only have I seen it done, but I have had a little practice with it, and had it demonstrated on me. I know better than to argue with a well-trained cop over here. ;)
The problem is that this relies on the human being. I could probably force my way out of a hold with minimal pain if I really had to. I'd break my limb but I definitely wouldn't be in significant pain.

[PhantomWolf]

On a similar note, had the idiot not resisted arrest he would not have simply stopped the pain he received, he would have prevented it all together. He was in total control of how much pain he felt!

Yes and no, in this case quite possibly, but the point is that the officers are the ones that decide to apply that pian not the restrainee, the restainee's action might make them to decide too, but they are still the ones that pull the trigger.

The problem is that this relies on the human being. I could probably force my way out of a hold with minimal pain if I really had to. I'd break my limb but I definitely wouldn't be in significant pain.

And if you did, and you got Tased for it I'd be applauding the cops. Again I'm not saying that all tasing is wrong or that tasers should be banned, I'm saying that other methods should be applied first and that only when they fail should Tasers be resorted too. In the Kerry protest it seems that they did attempt alternative methods and if so then the Tasing was fair enough, in the video I started commenting on (the UCLA one) this was not done, the student was repeatedly tased merely for failure to follow orders. In the end the cops just picked him out and man handled him out, something they could have done from the start rather than yelling at him to stand up and tasing him five times for not doing so.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

It's pretty simple...the police instruct you to do something, you do it. If you have a "problem" with what you were instructed to do, then bring that up in court.


I think in this kid's case he was afraid he was never going to make it to court; that he was going to be "disappeared".

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure he knew perfectly well that he was escalating the situation, and that he intended to do so from the very beginning. He wanted to make a scene.

[Mr. Skinny]

Not really, it would only result in an injury -if- the restrainee caused it. When you are restrained by a baton, attempting to move causes pain, stopping that movement stops the pain, you are in total control of how much pain you feel or don't feel by your actions. With a Taser there is no such control, the restrainer is the one with the power to determine if and when you feel that pain, and they cannot mitigate or lessen that pain, it's an all or nothing deal. Note here that I'm talking about using the baton as a restraining device, not as a club to beat the restrainee. A well trained person with a PR-24 can have you on the floor and restrained and ready for handcuffs before you could decide it was time to resist, all without using it as a striking weapon, not only have I seen it done, but I have had a little practice with it, and had it demonstrated on me. I know better than to argue with a well-trained cop over here. ;)
I saw Curt's post while I was at work today, and thought I'd come back to see if you'd explained yourself Phantom.

I used to carry a PR-24 and took the official training at the time. My personal feeling was that there were only a few "moves" with a PR-24 that I ever felt comfortable with (as applied to restraining a subject - not striking them).

One was a move where you could slip the long end of the baton between the subjects chest and arm, and spin them around, using the short handle to lock their wrist behind their back. Variable pressure, as you suggest, could then be applied.

It was also a good defensive weapon to block your forearm from offensive blows. Good for a short punch to the gut with the stubby end, etc.

IMO, I didn't have enough trainingg with it, except to walk away knowing, bottom line, that hitting someone in the head with it was a no-no.

[omegablue]

It is my understanding that this student was disruptive, and he refused to comply with the officers' requests. He could have easily avoided this mess if he simply allowed himself to be escorted away from the mic.



He was not disruptive. First, there is no known reason under the law, for the officers doing this. He was speaking loud and had an intention to stab kerry with WORDS!!!! WOOORDS , there is freedom of speech man. So cut the crap, the cops were plainly wrong. Anyone who thinks on the contrary are so naive that i pitty them.


He is also, apparently, an attention whore. He acts out purposely to draw attention to himself. It is my guess that this is exactly what he wanted to happen. There is more than one side to this story; just because the government used force against him does not mean they were wrong to do so.

You are plainly wrong. Come on.. quit being naive man. Though the guy was trying to draw attention, there was nooooooooooooo harm at all.

I am a big supporter of freedom of speech and individual rights; however, when one if forcibly resisting an officer, one should expect force to be used against him or her.

AAh you arent the supporter on free speech that you say you are. Again, there was no reason for using force. Another suspicious thing was Kerry´s attitude. He is a crook, see the way he conducts the thing. Come on, KErry wanted the guy tazed and silenced. Be it or not a conspiracy movie like that guy and that book suggests, the reaction was really suspicious as it seems Kerry anyways wanted him to be silenced.

Kerry could demolish this guy´s arguments and ridicule him if it was the case, just by saying: "Hey officers, release him and let me answer his questions." He COULD do that, don´t tell me he could not. But...perhaps... he just wanted the guy silenced... hmmmm

[omegablue]

I see an American citizen who was acting like a lunatic and refusing to follow orders from a police officer. He gave the police no choice but to taze him.

I have to add that I have a mentally ill person in my family who once dared the cops to shoot him, but fortunately, they tazed him instead. I watched the video and this is the sort of thing he would have done in his manic phase. When someone disobeys an order from the cops, there is a very real chance the person is sick or on drugs. Tazing them is the best option. If I were the cops, I'd do the same thing rather than risk my life by trying to subdue him physically.

Incivility removed.

Another one that lost a good chance of not writing something.

[T.A.M.]

He was not disruptive. First, there is no known reason under the law, for the officers doing this. He was speaking loud and had an intention to stab kerry with WORDS!!!! WOOORDS , there is freedom of speech man. So cut the crap, the cops were plainly wrong. Anyone who thinks on the contrary are so naive that i pitty them.




You are plainly wrong. Come on.. quit being naive man. Though the guy was trying to draw attention, there was nooooooooooooo harm at all.



AAh you arent the supporter on free speech that you say you are. Again, there was no reason for using force. Another suspicious thing was Kerry´s attitude. He is a crook, see the way he conducts the thing. Come on, KErry wanted the guy tazed and silenced. Be it or not a conspiracy movie like that guy and that book suggests, the reaction was really suspicious as it seems Kerry anyways wanted him to be silenced.

Kerry could demolish this guy´s arguments and ridicule him if it was the case, just by saying: "Hey officers, release him and let me answer his questions." He COULD do that, don´t tell me he could not. But...perhaps... he just wanted the guy silenced... hmmmm

regardless of whether the officers were right or wrong about trying to have him leave (I personally feel he should have been allowed to continue, until his question had been asked, and perhaps answered) the fact is, that once they made that decision, they are still officers of the law. If he was wrongfully removed, than he could have protested such, filed a complaint, hired a lawyer...is that not the american way...and perhaps a more civil way.

Once he resisted arrest (and to use your own words, if you think on the contrary, than I pity you man), he was committing a crime. Then, when he became combative, he needed to be controlled, both for his safety, and for the officers.

At any point, he could have diffused the situation, and avoided the Tasing by simply SHUTTING UP and allowing them to escort him out.

Clearly, he was doing it to make a scene, a spectacle, and to get attention.

My 2c

TAM:)

[Cl1mh4224rd]

He was not disruptive. First, there is no known reason under the law, for the officers doing this. He was speaking loud and had an intention to stab kerry with WORDS!!!! WOOORDS , there is freedom of speech man. So cut the crap, the cops were plainly wrong.


What about the kid who was actually next in line; the one who Mr. Meyers cut in front of? Does his freedom of speech not count?

[omegablue]

You really want to know? It's because of idiots exactly like that kid who have no respect for anyone except themselves. The kid and his roommates planned the ordeal as a publicity stunt. The kid had acted the same way in previous public 'forums'. The kid's roommates had the video on the web within minutes of it happening. T-shirts are for sale already.

In a decent society people would respect one another, not purposely cause trouble like this kid did, and no-one would have to be tased in the first place.

oh no no no sir. The incident occurred bcuzz cops wrongly took him and arrested him. This is what justifies his reaction. Kerry could just let him finish and say: "you finished, now you hear me...." and demolish his arguments as it is pure bullbleep as conceived by the general public. There is no excuse for what happened. There was not a thing as a disruption , but we were presented a deliberate and authoritarian use of force.