Outcampaign.Org - wear a scarlet A to show you are an atheist

[Ladewig]

http://outcampaign.org/

Atheists have always been at the forefront of rational thinking and beacons of enlightenment, and now you can share your idealism by being part of the OUT Campaign.


Atheists are far more numerous than most people realize. COME OUT of the closet! You'll feel liberated, and your example will encourage others to COME OUT too. (Don't "out" anybody else, wait for them to OUT themselves when they are ready to do so).


The OUT Campaign allows individuals to let others know they are not alone. It can also be a nice way of opening a conversation and help to demolish the negative stereotypes of atheists. Let the world know that we are not about to go away and that we are not going to allow those that would condemn us to push us into the shadows.


As more and more people join the OUT Campaign, fewer and fewer people will feel intimidated by religion.

=more=



I kind of like the idea and plan to buy a shirt. Obviously, it is not for everyone, but I do think it serves a useful purpose.

I suspect that more than a handful of Christians in the U.S. will describe this organization as persecuting religion.

[Darat]

Shouldn't it be something more like "2A" or "AA" or "A2" - for "aggressive atheist (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=93474)"? :)

[ChristineR]

Most people will have no idea what it means, a small number of people will think it means you are an Adulterer, and only people who agree with you will have the slightest clue what it is really about.

[Darat]

But that's part of the reason for starting to wear something like this. A bit like the pink triangle being worn by a gay person.

[tsg]

But that's part of the reason for starting to wear something like this. A bit like the pink triangle being worn by a gay person.

Or an IPU.

[slingblade]

Not me. I lost my entire life and future when I said I was an atheist. I'll never say it outside these boards again.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I don't see the point of tying my identity to something I don't do. I'd as soon wear a shirt promoting the fact that I don't eat guacamole

[Ladewig]

I don't see the point of tying my identity to something I don't do. I'd as soon wear a shirt promoting the fact that I don't eat guacamole

And if there were influential people who said that all schoolchildren should eat guacamole because only Guacamolers are truly moral, then I might wear a t-shirt supporting the rights of those who don't like it.

[madurobob]

I'd as soon wear a shirt promoting the fact that I don't eat guacamole
Why do you hate America?

[tsg]

And if there were influential people who said that all schoolchildren should eat guacamole because only Guacamolers are truly moral, then I might wear a t-shirt supporting the rights of those who don't like it.

This is precisely my argument against those who say that atheists shouldn't define themselves by what they don't believe. We didn't do the defining, the people insisting they are better than us because we don't believe did. They drew the lines, not us, and they shouldn't be surprised that everyone they put inside those lines react as a group because of where they drew them.

And where do I get an Aguacamoler T-shirt, because I hate that stuff.

[grayman]

And where do I get an Aguacamoler T-shirt, because I hate that stuff.

Heathen!

[Marquis de Carabas]

Why do you hate America?
"Sister Golden Hair"

[Marquis de Carabas]

This is precisely my argument against those who say that atheists shouldn't define themselves by what they don't believe.
It should be noted that I did not say atheists should not define themselves thus. I said I don't.

[uruk]

Does it have to be an "A". What about if your an agnostic. Would that be a question mark?

How about I don't wear a shirt that says "I believe in god".

[Garrette]

How about I don't wear a shirt There are some atheists who should begin this practice immediately.

I am not one of them.

[tsg]

It should be noted that I did not say atheists should not define themselves thus.

It should also be noted I didn't say you did.

ETA: as long as we're defining ourselves by what we didn't say :)

[Marquis de Carabas]

It should also be noted I didn't say you did.
Furthermore, I didn't say you said I did.

ETA: as long as we're defining ourselves by what we didn't say :)
I think I shall have a shirt made which states, "I didn't say tsg said I said tsg said I said..."

[madurobob]

"Sister Golden Hair"

I tried to fake it, I don't mind saying, I just can't make it

Thanks, like I needed that rattling around my head the rest of the day.

Anyway, I think I'm with Marquis on this one. I don't see the point of wearing such a symbol. I don't want to make it too easy for the rest of the world to immediately categorize me so one dimensionally.

Thats one reason I think those silly fishes on peoples cars are, well, silly. And the silly fishes with legs eating the silly fishes - just as silly. Please, I've already judged you by the type of car you're driving anyway. Your fish silliness isn't helping.

[Dunstan]

"Sister Golden Hair"

Now that's just silly. That's a good song. If you want to hate them, "Muskrat Love" is all the reason you need.

[Dunstan]

Just an FYI to anyone ordering a shirt: they are very small. I normally wear an XL T-shirt with room to spare, but I can barely put on the one I ordered, much less wear it in public. Go at least one, if not two, sizes larger than you normally would.

[tsg]

Anyway, I think I'm with Marquis on this one. I don't see the point of wearing such a symbol. I don't want to make it too easy for the rest of the world to immediately categorize me so one dimensionally.

The way I see it, they've already done that whether or not I wear a shirt.

[madurobob]

The way I see it, they've already done that whether or not I wear a shirt.

Kinda the sideways point I was making about already judging people by their cars in my next paragraph. I am nothing if not self-contradictory.

[madurobob]

Now that's just silly. That's a good song. If you want to hate them, "Muskrat Love" is all the reason you need.
Well, yeah, but thats another group entirely. Capt & Tenille?

I know muskrats are atheists, but do they like guacamole?

[Dunstan]

Well, yeah, but thats another group entirely. Capt & Tenille?

I know muskrats are atheists, but do they like guacamole?

Sadly, America did a cover of "Muskrat Love." Which is probably the worse crime: an already-successful group hearing that song and thinking, "cool! We should record a version of that!"

[madurobob]

Wow. I. Did. Not. Know. That.

Google confirms.

Ok, now I hate America.

[tkingdoll]

I don't see the point of tying my identity to something I don't do. I'd as soon wear a shirt promoting the fact that I don't eat guacamole

What a smashing idea!

Ahem.

Actually, to ruin your analogy, I once made badges for me and everyone I know who don't eat kiwi fruit. The badges said "I don't eat kiwi fruit".

[Abdul Alhazred]

The scarlet A is too ambiguous.

What we need is a flying A.

[Tobermory]

I'm content with my atom tattoo, which always shows up when dresses slip off my shoulder. And dresses always slip off my shoulder. (I was going to go for the more aggressive American Atheist symbol, but compromised with a slightly less-than-scientific atom amongst a galaxy of stars.) Besides, I'm not that proud of being an American at this precise point in time.

[Robin]

And where do I get an Aguacamoler T-shirt, because I hate that stuff.
As far as I can tell it would look exactly like the atheist shirt advocated by the outcampaign.

That would make it very flexible, it would represent everything you didn't do.

[Darth Rotor]

Not to rain on your parade, but if you wear a shirt with merely an A on it, you will likely get some wisearsed queries/responses to said shirt being worn.

What's the A for . . .

Anarchy?

A-Hole?

Atheist?

Angels?

Alabama?

Abolone?

And so on.

Of course, as an ice breaker, perhaps the Ambiguity :) is a good idea.

DR

[Foster Zygote]

I'm wearing my atheist T-shirt right now. It's a neutral gray cotton variety with no markings of any kind. In fact, pretty much every T-shirt I own is an atheist T-shirt.

[Foster Zygote]

Not to rain on your parade, but if you wear a shirt with merely an A on it, you will likely get some wisearsed queries/responses to said shirt being worn.

What's the A for . . .

Anarchy?

A-Hole?

Atheist?

Angels?

Alabama?

Abolone?

And so on.

Of course, as an ice breaker, perhaps the Ambiguity :) is a good idea.

DR

Worst of all, they might look at you and hold their thumbs up like the Fonz and say "AAAAAAAAY!"

[Dunstan]

Worst of all, they might look at you and hold their thumbs up like the Fonz and say "AAAAAAAAY!"


Now I want to order a bunch more!

[Axiom_Blade]

But that's part of the reason for starting to wear something like this. A bit like the pink triangle being worn by a gay person.

Yes, but that would only make sense if we were all adulterers, and were trying to make adultery acceptable. Because that's what a red "A" already means.

This is even dumber than that whole "brights" thing. Why are atheists such bad marketers?
I would certainly support something like this if it made sense. What's wrong with just having a shirt that says "atheist" on it? Say, white letters on a black background. No confusion, says what you want it to say.

[Kochanski]

I have mine and love it. Time to be noticed.

[tsg]

Yes, but that would only make sense if we were all adulterers, and were trying to make adultery acceptable. Because that's what a red "A" already means.

The allusion to the Scarlet Letter is on purpose. It says, "I am proud to be what you think I should be ashamed of".

[Marquis de Carabas]

The allusion to the Scarlet Letter is on purpose. It says, "I am proud to be what you think I should be ashamed of".
The problem is, as Darth noted, it's only the wearer who thinks it says that. To most viewers, it says, "That dude's got a big red A on his shirt. Huh." Where's the pride in wearing a symbol nobody understands?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Actually, to ruin your analogy, I once made badges for me and everyone I know who don't eat kiwi fruit. The badges said "I don't eat kiwi fruit".
Doesn't ruin my analogy at all. I wouldn't have worn a kiwi fruit badge either.

[quixotecoyote]

The problem is, as Darth noted, it's only the wearer who thinks it says that. To most viewers, it says, "That dude's got a big red A on his shirt. Huh." Where's the pride in wearing a symbol nobody understands?


I don't know, lets ask Arlington cemetery why they bury atomic powered corpses.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.org/images/Emblems/emblem16.png

That said I prefer the FSM sticker as my atheist emblem.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Been there. Done that. Passed on the t-shirt the last time (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=89096).

I want a Pillory t-shirt.

[tsg]

The problem is, as Darth noted, it's only the wearer who thinks it says that. To most viewers, it says, "That dude's got a big red A on his shirt. Huh." Where's the pride in wearing a symbol nobody understands?

Well, like the gay's pink triangle that someone else brought up, it starts primarily as a symbol to identify yourself to other atheists. If it becomes common, others will learn what it means. It need not be identifiable overnight to be an effective symbol.

I'm willing to bet that the first few people who wore a cross were asked "why do you have a dead guy around your neck?"

[Beth]

Yes, but that would only make sense if we were all adulterers, and were trying to make adultery acceptable. Because that's what a red "A" already means.

This is even dumber than that whole "brights" thing. Why are atheists such bad marketers?
I would certainly support something like this if it made sense. What's wrong with just having a shirt that says "atheist" on it? Say, white letters on a black background. No confusion, says what you want it to say.

The guy who sits next to me in German sometimes wears an Atheist shirt. It says "atheist" in handwritten black ink on a plain white t-shirt.

[Ichneumonwasp]

So, if I decide that I really am an atheist, if I get one of these shirts, can I blithely go off and commit adultery now?

[tsg]

So, if I decide that I really am an atheist, if I get one of these shirts, can I blithely go off and commit adultery now?

Actually, it's required.

[TX50]

So, if I decide that I really am an atheist, if I get one of these shirts, can I blithely go off and commit adultery now?

Wearing one of those awful-looking things, I doubt you'd get the chance!

[Ichneumonwasp]

Wearing one of those awful-looking things, I doubt you'd get the chance!

Damn. There's always a catch.:)

[Axiom_Blade]

The allusion to the Scarlet Letter is on purpose. It says, "I am proud to be what you think I should be ashamed of".

I know that...but the "what I am proud to be" connoted by wearing a scarlet A is not an atheist but an adulterer. The symbol already has a completely different meaning!

Why Dawkins chose this particular symbol is a total mystery to me. What he is trying to do is co-opt it. This can be done, of course...see what the Nazis did to the swastika! However, there needs to be a tremendous groundswell of support for it to work, and I just don't see that right now. Moreover, there are many other, much more effective ways of signifying you are an atheist.

Why wear a shirt that a)most people will not understand, and b) if they do, they will get the wrong message? The only people who will understand are those that are aware of Dawkins' campaign, and that's probably .001% of the population, or something.

[tsg]

I know that...but the "what I am proud to be" connoted by wearing a scarlet A is not an atheist but an adulterer. The symbol already has a completely different meaning!

That hasn't been used in over a hundred years. Do you really think anyone is going to confuse the two?

[Ichneumonwasp]

That hasn't been used in over a hundred years. Do you really think anyone is going to confuse the two?

I'm hoping so. I mean, we gotta get something out of this, right?:D

[skeptifem]

i dont really like to advertise stuff like that. I like people to leave me alone the majority of the time when im in public. soooo ill pass.

[mijopaalmc]

That hasn't been used in over a hundred years. Do you really think anyone is going to confuse the two?

Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter is still taught in many high schools today. Granted one of the themes of that book was the sanctimony of the society that branded a woman an adulteress and failed to look at its own short comings, but the primary and most superficial association is that the scarlet "A" means "adulterer/adulteress".

[tsg]

Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter is still taught in many high schools today. Granted one of the themes of that book was the sanctimony of the society that branded a woman an adulteress and failed to look at its own short comings, but the primary and most superficial association is that the scarlet "A" means "adulterer/adulteress".

Of course, but how many adulterers are walking around with A's on their chest?

[mijopaalmc]

Of course, but how many adulterers are walking around with A's on their chest?

It's not that it is a literal punishment; it's that the literary allusion is still a strong cultural reference.

[tsg]

It's not that it is a literal punishment; it's that the literary allusion is still a strong cultural reference.

A reference to a practice that is no longer used and hasn't been for a hundred years, so I don't get the point of claiming that a red 'A' means adulterer.

[mijopaalmc]

A reference to a practice that is no longer used and hasn't been for a hundred years, so I don't get the point of claiming that a red 'A' means adulterer.

Look, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be used. I'm just saying that it should be used with the acknowledgment that the symbol is also a literary allusion to a well-known novel and therefore the association is still with adultery regardless of whether the practice in the novel is extinct.

[Beth]

A reference to a practice that is no longer used and hasn't been for a hundred years, so I don't get the point of claiming that a red 'A' means adulterer.

The claim is that many people will misinterpret it as meaning adulterer. Not an unreasonable supposition, but it's also likely that they won't have any idea of what it means and will ask.

[Marquis de Carabas]

The claim is that many people will misinterpret it as meaning adulterer. Not an unreasonable supposition, but it's also likely that they won't have any idea of what it means
I'm with you up to here, but...

and will ask.
I can count the number of times a stranger has asked me about what an article of clothing I was wearing meant on one grizzled old shop-teacher's hand. As for non-strangers, if I want to let them know I'm an atheist, I'd rather just tell them.

[tsg]

Look, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be used. I'm just saying that it should be used with the acknowledgment that the symbol is also a literary allusion to a well-known novel and therefore the association is still with adultery regardless of whether the practice in the novel is extinct.

Well, the argument you jumped into the middle of was precisely about whether or not it should be used because it once meant "adulterer". In fact, if you go back and read what I wrote you will find I had already acknowledged the allusion to The Scarlet Letter and said it was intentional.

If you are going to jump into the middle of an argument, at least have the courtesy to read it first.

[mijopaalmc]

Well, the argument you jumped into the middle of was precisely about whether or not it should be used because it once meant "adulterer". In fact, if you go back and read what I wrote you will find I had already acknowledged the allusion to The Scarlet Letter and said it was intentional.

If you are going to jump into the middle of an argument, at least have the courtesy to read it first.

I did actually read it, but didn't come up with the same interpretation you did because I was projecting what I perceive to be adultery (i.e., violating specifically and mutually agreed-upon limits on sexual conduct during a marriage or other committed relationship [1]) onto the discussion. In my personal context of adultery, I hardly think that it is appropriate to be advertising one's adultery as it is flaunting the fact that you lied to your spouse. However, if we go by the more common societal definition of adultery as sex outside of wedlock, I can see how there is a much stronger parallel between adultery and atheism, as both reject societal norms.

[Ichneumonwasp]

I did actually read it, but didn't come up with the same interpretation you did because I was projecting what I perceive to be adultery (i.e., violating specifically and mutually agreed-upon limits on sexual conduct during a marriage or other committed relationship [1]) onto the discussion. In my personal context of adultery, I hardly think that it is appropriate to be advertising one's adultery as it is flaunting the fact that you lied to your spouse. However, if we go by the more common societal definition of adultery as sex outside of wedlock, I can see how there is a much stronger parallel between adultery and atheism, as both reject societal norms.

I assume by societal norms you mean "normative" rather than what is actually practiced?

Seems like most surveys have more than 50% of men and women committing adultery in the U.S. at least.

I felt like I was missing out on something. I thought maybe the shirt would help.:)

[mijopaalmc]

I assume by societal norms you mean "normative" rather than what is actually practiced?

That is what I meant.

Aren't norms normative?

[Ichneumonwasp]

That is what I meant.

Aren't norms normative?

Normally norms are normative but on rare occasions normative norms are not normal*.









*where normal is defined as the most common practice in a culture

[tsg]

Normally norms are normative but on rare occasions normative norms are not normal*.

As poetic and beautiful (not to mention funny) as that answer is...

"Societal norms," ie. what is publicly approved of, isn't always what is done in practice behind closed doors.

[PrincessIneffabelle]

I think the shirt would look much better with the website address across the back. Other than that, I like the design and would buy it they offered hoodies. I wear the letter A a lot. Of course, that may have something to do with my first name being "Anne".