A novice's reflection on the debate

[buka001]

I only recently joined in on the 911 "Debate". Being a South African, this debate never really featured prominently here.

I became aware of the whole claimed conspiracy when I read the issue of Popular Mechanics that debunked various myths.

A friend of mine just moved to the US, to marry the love of his life. He witnessed one of the troofer rallies. He told me about it, and I just couldn't believe that people still believed in the conspiracy.

So I came across, the DU forums, this one and of course LCF.

I don't have much of the facts at hand. I do however understand the engineering principles fo teh collapse of WTC 1,2 and 7, due to my experience and training as a civil engineer.

The startegy I have adopted in debates on LCF, is pure logic. I do not cite theories or proofs. I ask simple questions based on logic. At present I have addressed flight 93 and wtc7.

No one on lcf has been able to answer any of my questions relating to these questions. Diversions have been attempted, but nothing substantial has been provided.

I always enjoy a great debate. I am being disapointed by the forums at lcf. No one is willing to address my simple questions, of how, why and when etc.

Anyway glad to be here!

[dudalb]

Welcome to the JREF forums,buka001.
Lots of the people here have horror stories to tell about trying to have legit discussions on the Loose Change Forums. I think there is an award for people who get banned from the LCF for daring to challenge the Conspiracy Crap.

[Civilized Worm]

Logic? I'm amazed you're still there!

[jhunter1163]

Welcome, Buka.

There was an award for being banned from LCF; however, Oliver (the award presenter) has gotten bored with CTs and spends more time in Politics these days, so we don't hand out awards anymore.

You'll find that this subforum has experts in many, many disciplines who can answer pretty much any question you might have re: 9/11. I recommend the work of posters Gravy and R. Mackey: both are eminently clear and readable writers and both are absolutely devastating to the conspiracy theorists.

I wouldn't waste too much time at LCF if I were you; most of the posters there are pretty much beyond redemption. This is the place for lively and intelligent debate.

[slyjoe]

Welcome to the JREF forums,buka001.
Lots of the people here have horror stories to tell about trying to have legit discussions on the Loose Change Forums. I think there is an award for people who get banned from the LCF for daring to challenge the Conspiracy Crap.

Well, the NWO purchasing agents didn't keep up this month, and we ran out of banning badges. So the award is kind of on the back burner for now.

[In My Spare Time]

Hope you're ready to get banned over there for not agreeing with them.

[Bell]

Hope you're ready to get banned over there for not agreeing with them.

You mean, for obfuscating* the truth.

*Sorry for using a Christophera hallmark.

[jberryhill]

The strategy I have adopted in debates on LCF, is pure logic

That's a bannable offense at LCF, but not at DU.

At DU, you will remain logical for, oh I'll give you three months, before you make your first sarcastic comment.

Because it is a political forum, there are some participants there whose participation is not really based upon 9/11 discussions, but they use 9/11 conspiracy stuff as a recruiting hook for an agenda differs from DU's primary focus as a discussion forum for those who support the Democratic Party (which includes myself). There are some longstanding political organizations in the US with quite unconventional views of history and economics, who have long used a "recruit from the left" strategy.

You will find, on those rare instances when a topic is thoroughly discussed and driven into the ground, that the same individual will re-introduce a thread on that topic after a few months, and will behave as if he/she has never heard any of the information that was thoroughly discussed just weeks ago.

That's a sign of dealing with something other than "truth seeking" or "logic".

[Magenta]

Is DU Democratic Underground?

I just googled "DU" and "9/11". It brought up a forum page where some guy did an experiment in his backyard with rabbit fencing, kerosene, newspaper and a concrete block to simulate what happened to the towers. He didn't seem convinced that a hydrocarbon fire could cause a steel structure to collapse... :jaw-dropp

[T.A.M.]

Welcome to the forum Magenta.

yes....DU is short for the website "Democratic Underground".

TAM:)

[Brainster]

Is DU Democratic Underground?

I just googled "DU" and "9/11". It brought up a forum page where some guy did an experiment in his backyard with rabbit fencing, kerosene, newspaper and a concrete block to simulate what happened to the towers. He didn't seem convinced that a hydrocarbon fire could cause a steel structure to collapse... :jaw-dropp

Yep, DU = Democratic Underground. That's Spooked 911, and only one of his experiments; he did one where he made a tower of wood and tried to smash a wooden plane into it. He also likes to prove that the planes at the WTC could not have existed because he can't get the camera angles to line up exactly in Microsoft Flight Simulator.

[dudalb]

Yep, DU = Democratic Underground. That's Spooked 911, and only one of his experiments; he did one where he made a tower of wood and tried to smash a wooden plane into it. He also likes to prove that the planes at the WTC could not have existed because he can't get the camera angles to line up exactly in Microsoft Flight Simulator.


And this guy is one of the more intelligent Truthers.....

[Magenta]

Thanks Tam. :)


Yep, DU = Democratic Underground. That's Spooked 911, and only one of his experiments; he did one where he made a tower of wood and tried to smash a wooden plane into it. He also likes to prove that the planes at the WTC could not have existed because he can't get the camera angles to line up exactly in Microsoft Flight Simulator.


Reminds me a little of the story/urban myth about the guy who used to dig up things in his backyard and submit them as important archaeological finds to the Smithsonian.

[Gravy]

Reminds me a little of the story/urban myth about the guy who used to dig up things in his backyard and submit them as important archaeological finds to the Smithsonian.Welcome to the forums, Magenta. You'll find several of "Spooked's" experiments at the "Not parodies" section of this page (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/laughingtokeepfromcrying%3Athelightersideo).

[Bell]

Welcome to the forums, Magenta. You'll find several of "Spooked's" experiments at the "Not parodies" section of this page (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/laughingtokeepfromcrying%3Athelightersideo).

Hey Gravy, I was just now taking a look at that page, and I have to say, I'm very honoured you included the Dist...Ditch...Dictionary :)

[orphia nay]

Welcome to the forums, Magenta. You'll find several of "Spooked's" experiments at the "Not parodies" section of this page (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/laughingtokeepfromcrying%3Athelightersideo).

Where's my Twoofer Credo? :( :p

ETA: Sorry - welcome to the forum, buka001. :)

[buka001]

Ahh Spooked 911. I took him on, with respect to his theory that the engine part from UA175 couldn't have landed on the corner of Church an Murray St.

He had arrived at this conclusion by super imposing a screen shot from one of the low res videos he got from Youtube of the crash on a piece of paper. He then traced by hand, using a pencil the "trajectory" lines of some fragment he observed flying out the building.

His hand drawn trajectory line (just ignores the entire theory of ballistics in the meantime) did not go as far as Church. So bang he claims it was planted :D

No consideration to what happened when the part landed - ie. did it bounce or did it stop dead? No consideration to what was happeneing during the crash, what forces, angles etc where influencing the trajectory of that specific object.No logical thought given to how it could have been planted in a busy Manhattan street.

I find they tend to fit their theories to what they expect the answer to be.

P.S. I see I cannot access LC Forums this morning (2nd time I have been banned!). I do not have access. Hell, I didn't even get a chance to actually debate with anyone!

[psyexplorer]

What's the record? I'll bet you I could get banned in one post.

[buka001]

The first time I was banned, it was after one post.

It was laced with satire. I gave a theory, that highlited the logical fallacies in their theories, of how the events were conducted. I.e. the explosives were covered with invisible blankets. The trucks that dumped the debris were special invisible trucks etc etc.

They were not impressed.

I don't know what got me banned this time. No warnings nothing. Got to about 40 posts.

Maybe it was my challenge to Terral to provide proof of his "thesis" on calculating time based on shadows in photographs. Or proof on his assertians that the missile that hit the pentagon, could have knocked the lamp posts over with its "bow pressure wave".

Or maybe they realised they couldn't answer my questions on flight 93 or wtc7. So they got rid of me instead. I also disputed their star witness Susan Mclein's testimony. I highlited, using their own references major contradictions in her original testimony, and the interview she gave to Terrorcell. They act just like the "people" they have deluded themselves into fighting against.

[psyexplorer]

Maybe we should make a game show out of it. Like name that tune. We'll call it 'Name that ban'.

I say I can get banned in one post and that post will be erased from existence.

[Brainache]

Maybe we should make a game show out of it. Like name that tune. We'll call it 'Name that ban'.

I say I can get banned in one post and that post will be erased from existence.

Anyone can do that. The real challenge is to present yourself as a non believer in the CTs and NOT get banned. Not very many have achieved that.

[jhunter1163]

The record for LCF is three minutes from registration to banning. Bell was actually banned from PfT before posting, which is something every debunker envies him for. To be so feared that they won't even let you post.. well, what more needs be said?

So there you have it. I'd wait till morning though, not many mods/admins on at this hour.

[psyexplorer]

How the hell do you get banned before you post?

[jhunter1163]

As I recall, Bell registered at PfT, and JDX (Rob Balsamo, a legendary wackjob) somehow identified him (maybe by his IP domain) and banned him before he could make a post.

We've had some memorable bans here, from Bell's prebanning to Oliver's getting most of Germany banned from LCF by his repeated annoyance of the mods there. It just goes to show that the JREF really, REALLY annoys those people, since we deal in actual facts here.

[psyexplorer]

Do you think anyone will ever win the million?

[Magenta]

Welcome to the forums, Magenta. You'll find several of "Spooked's" experiments at the "Not parodies" section of [...].


Thanks Gravy, that was an eye-opener, but also very funny.

I liked the dictionary, especially "pull-it surprise". "dodgic" seemed strangely familiar--now I have a word for it.

Anyone can do that. The real challenge is to present yourself as a non believer in the CTs and NOT get banned. Not very many have achieved that.


So is this some sort of initiation ritual before you can be truly accepted on JREF? :D

[jhunter1163]

@ Psyexplorer:

No, because I don't believe that there are any such things as ghosts, dowsers are nothing more than frauds, "psychics" are simply cold readers, and on and on.

Not that I wouldn't love to see it happen; I think we'd all like to believe that we can communicate with our dead loved ones, that we can know what the future holds for us, etc. But in the hard cold light of scientific scrutiny, the paranormal claims just don't hold up. They'll keep trying though...

[psyexplorer]

I can truly say I do not believe in anything paranormal. Nor do I believe in any conspiracy theories. But I'm open minded.

[Travis]

Do you think anyone will ever win the million?

If I knew that I'd win the million.

[psyexplorer]

:)

[Bell]

As I recall, Bell registered at PfT, and JDX (Rob Balsamo, a legendary wackjob) somehow identified him (maybe by his IP domain) and banned him before he could make a post.

We've had some memorable bans here, from Bell's prebanning to Oliver's getting most of Germany banned from LCF by his repeated annoyance of the mods there. It just goes to show that the JREF really, REALLY annoys those people, since we deal in actual facts here.

Quite correct, but he recognized me because I posted in JDX's dedication thread on this forum that I had signed up and under what name. Iirc I used the name Russell. That was after Shinker here made a picture of Russell Casse (Dennis Quaid, ID4) with some text on it poking fun at JDX.

Not only did I get an insta-ban, JDX also changed my username to BellJREFtroll.

[buka001]

If my posts are still on LCf, anyone can see that I was not confrontational. I was not baiting (as I was accused). I asked simple questions and I asked for proof of theories. Terral and terrorcell were the two individuals who i challeneged the most, as their posts lacked any common sense. I applied a logical analysis to their claims. No answer was provided. I was polite. I thanked people for their contributions.

My nickname there was Saffer1. My ip at home is dynamic. Perhaps I will be able to register again? I can't even access the register page here at work.

[Corsair 115]

What's the record? I'll bet you I could get banned in one post.Nah, the really impressive feat would be to get banned before you even made your first post!

[Naughtyhippo]

Wow, I recognise names from over a year ago (terrorcell, JDX -johndoex?) from the loose change thread. I read parts I,II & III. I was celebrating getting to page 90 of part III (took me four days of reading!) then almost cried to see part IV created.

Quick questions for those in the know:

Did Avery ever make the 3rd LC?
What happened at Ground Zero at the anniversary last year?

[Sabrina]

Avery's on LC:Final Cut; should be released on DVD shortly (November I think?) and will be available on the internet as well.

As for last year; are you sure you don't mean THIS year? 'Cause this year's just bloody funny, if you ask me, and much more interesting in terms of humor. Alex Jones was arrested at one point (released the next day) and they got perhaps 1000 people to attend their Twoofstock when they were projecting 50,000 or so.

[jhunter1163]

I'd forgotten about the pic. IIRC it said "Moderate with extreme prejudice".

[jberryhill]

I just googled "DU" and "9/11". It brought up a forum page where some guy did an experiment in his backyard with rabbit fencing, kerosene, newspaper and a concrete block to simulate what happened to the towers. He didn't seem convinced that a hydrocarbon fire could cause a steel structure to collapse...

Ahh... the Bunny Cage of Doom.. Find the guy with the construction paper, cardboard tubes, and a large rock. We have some of the greatest hands-on engineering model makers on the interent since the plastic paper-shelf guy.

I really need to finish my Titanic simulation one of these days....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6200565569456547648&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3378818080081569160&hl=en

[Bell]

I'd forgotten about the pic. IIRC it said "Moderate with extreme prejudice".

Correct! I just did some searching and found it:

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/36174504033371510.jpg

BTW, my username was RussellCasse.

And here's the thread:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62553

And here the post detailing my foray on the PfT forum:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1913305#post1913274

[Brainache]

Those were the days!

[Bell]

Those were the days!

We got new troofers (and all of their socks) on a daily basis.

CT "Hi, I'm new to all this 9/11 stuff? What do you think happenend? LOL :):)"
We "Terrorists hijacked 4 planes and crashed them all over the place."
CT "Sheeple! Shill! I bet you all run after Gravy and kiss his @$$ ??!!"

Yeah, those were the days :)

And not to forget, the (in)famous Christophera ofcourse.

[Brainache]

We got new troofers (and all of their socks) on a daily basis.

CT "Hi, I'm new to all this 9/11 stuff? What do you think happenend? LOL :):)"
We "Terrorists hijacked 4 planes and crashed them all over the place."
CT "Sheeple! Shill! I bet you all run after Gravy and kiss his @$$ ??!!"

Yeah, those were the days :)

And not to forget, the (in)famous Christophera ofcourse.

Yeah none of this shabby "Well maybe there is something to the ISI connection, but that's about it." stuff that we get these days. Back then it was all Pods and Holograms and Secret Black Ops Demolition Teams etc.

Where have all the delusions gone? Maybe the youth of America have been disdelusioned...

[GlennB]

If my posts are still on LCf, anyone can see that I was not confrontational. I was not baiting (as I was accused). I asked simple questions and I asked for proof of theories. Terral and terrorcell were the two individuals who i challeneged the most, as their posts lacked any common sense. I applied a logical analysis to their claims. No answer was provided. I was polite. I thanked people for their contributions.

My nickname there was Saffer1. My ip at home is dynamic. Perhaps I will be able to register again? I can't even access the register page here at work.

Yep, as LCF bannings go that was a weird one. It seems much more "tolerant" over there of late ;)