[Merged]WTC fires / Photograph

[buka001]

I saw a photograph recently of what is purported to be a women standing alongside a column at the entry hole of the plane into the first tower that was hit.

Anyone know the background to this photo? Is it real. Troofers use to say it couldn't have been that hot if someone could stand right at the hole.

[Bell]

I saw a photograph recently of what is purported to be a women standing alongside a column at the entry hole of the plane into the first tower that was hit.

Anyone know the background to this photo? Is it real. Troofers use to say it couldn't have been that hot if someone could stand right at the hole.

It's real. The woman is believed to be Edna Cintron.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Edna_Cintron_standing_in_WTC1.jpg?redirect=n o

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/people/3707.html
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/met_MISSING_1125_cintron.html

ETA: I'm trying to look up more information, but I get a load of troofer crap.
ETA: 2 more links.

[gumboot]

I saw a photograph recently of what is purported to be a women standing alongside a column at the entry hole of the plane into the first tower that was hit.

Anyone know the background to this photo? Is it real. Troofers use to say it couldn't have been that hot if someone could stand right at the hole.


"Troofers" are quite right. It couldn't be "that hot" if someone was standing in the hole. It couldn't be "that hot" right there in that specific spot.

I wonder why someone would risk standing in such a dangerous place, clinging to shattered steel at the edge of a plummet to certain death? What could possibly be wrong with the rest of the building? Too smoky? Or perhaps too hot?

-Gumboot

[ref]

Here is a wide angle shot.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1363946f0f57a715ad.jpg

The fires are above her at that particular place.

[Bell]

In one of the photo's there is also a man visible between the columns iirc on the floor above and to the left of Edna.

[Tirdun]

I hate that photograph.

When I look at it, I see a fragile human being in the final, horrifying moments of her life. A person who has done nothing to deserve their fate standing in stark realization of exactly how few choices she has left and knowing with absolute certainty what that fate is going to be. In careful hands that photograph would bring people together in empathy and loss.

When a troother looks at that photograph they see an opportunity to play amateur fire investigator. A chance to pick at the threads on the hem of the investigation so they can convince others that their particular frankenstein monster of a theory is somehow more credible than all the other conspiracy theories and that the official conclusion is somehow wrong. All based on the final moments of a person's life, captured by chance on film. In their hands it is a nothing but a tool: a prybar with jagged edges used to worry any perceived gap.

I don't know who that woman is, but I hope she passed as quickly and painlessly as possible in that hell. No one deserves that treatment in life, and she definitely doesn't deserve this treatment afterwards.

[ref]

In one of the photo's there is also a man visible between the columns iirc on the floor above and to the left of Edna.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1363946f0f96a89afe.jpg


It's terrible how they use these pictures to further their agenda. Absolutely terrible.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

"Troofers" are quite right. It couldn't be "that hot" if someone was standing in the hole. It couldn't be "that hot" right there in that specific spot.

I wonder why someone would risk standing in such a dangerous place, clinging to shattered steel at the edge of a plummet to certain death? What could possibly be wrong with the rest of the building? Too smoky? Or perhaps too hot?

-Gumboot

My thoughts exactly. No one is going to "hang ten" over an 800 foot drop unless stepping back from that ledge is even more crazy.

I've pointed out before that this photograph is simply incapable of showing wether Ms. Cintron has any burns or other fire related injury.

[buka001]

I couldn't agree more!!

The point they fail to understand is the the fire burnt upwards. None of them can rationalise the fact that all the smoke from the flames, is coming from the floors above. They also say this is proof that the steel wasn't melting. Well who said it was melting there and then?

[leftysergeant]

And as if that were not enough, they put her at the top of the page at Patriots Question 9/11.

Sick little morons.

[Bell]

I hate that photograph.

When I look at it, I see a fragile human being in the final, horrifying moments of her life. A person who has done nothing to deserve their fate standing in stark realization of exactly how few choices she has left and knowing with absolute certainty what that fate is going to be. In careful hands that photograph would bring people together in empathy and loss.

When a troother looks at that photograph they see an opportunity to play amateur fire investigator. A chance to pick at the threads on the hem of the investigation so they can convince others that their particular frankenstein monster of a theory is somehow more credible than all the other conspiracy theories and that the official conclusion is somehow wrong. All based on the final moments of a person's life, captured by chance on film. In their hands it is a nothing but a tool: a prybar with jagged edges used to worry any perceived gap.

I don't know who that woman is, but I hope she passed as quickly and painlessly as possible in that hell. No one deserves that treatment in life, and she definitely doesn't deserve this treatment afterwards.

Well said. I'll nominate this post.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well said. I'll nominate this post.

Seconded.

[Alferd_Packer]

IIRC, the time stamp on that photograph indicates that it was taken around 9:30 or so. There is no one visible in later photos, but lots more fire.

[MG1962]

third

[Bell]

IIRC, the time stamp on that photograph indicates that it was taken around 9:30 or so. There is no one visible in later photos, but lots more fire.

I read a remark by her husband who said he recognized her in those photo's, and also recognized her in one of the photo's showing falling people :(

[buka001]

That's what makes me so mad about the whole troof movement!! Total ignorance and disrespect! :mad:

What about the passengers? Oh no according to troofers, they are stuck in some lab at NASA. Seriously wish they would just consider facts for once.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

The New York State Dept of Taxation office was 1 floor above WTC2's impact. Some people from those offices survived. Many didn't. For someone to make their way down to the site of impact in WTC1 (which I believe that image is from) after it has burned out isn't entirely unbelievable... it must have been the least hot spot to stand.

Imagine the horror after making your way down and realizing just how bad it is and you can't make it much further...

[slyjoe]

third

Fourthed (?). Extremely well written. I was going to nominate this also but am on stupid mountain time.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

It's real. The woman is believed to be Edna Cintron.
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/met_MISSING_1125_cintron.html



That nytimes link makes the picture even sadder... Her and her husband both at one point were homeless alcoholics and got over their problems, together. I hope Mr Cintron hasn't relapsed in the 6 years passed.

[T.A.M.]

I hate that photograph.

When I look at it, I see a fragile human being in the final, horrifying moments of her life. A person who has done nothing to deserve their fate standing in stark realization of exactly how few choices she has left and knowing with absolute certainty what that fate is going to be. In careful hands that photograph would bring people together in empathy and loss.

When a troother looks at that photograph they see an opportunity to play amateur fire investigator. A chance to pick at the threads on the hem of the investigation so they can convince others that their particular frankenstein monster of a theory is somehow more credible than all the other conspiracy theories and that the official conclusion is somehow wrong. All based on the final moments of a person's life, captured by chance on film. In their hands it is a nothing but a tool: a prybar with jagged edges used to worry any perceived gap.

I don't know who that woman is, but I hope she passed as quickly and painlessly as possible in that hell. No one deserves that treatment in life, and she definitely doesn't deserve this treatment afterwards.


all so true....heartbreaking photo...well said.

TAM:)

[e^n]

It's terrible how they use these pictures to further their agenda. Absolutely terrible.

Do you happen to have the time that was taken? Floor #95 (which I assume he is on) was predicted by NIST to be quite quite hot until over an hour into the fire. I guess there's no identification of him either?

[R.Mackey]

Also keep in mind that the fires were hottest where the fuel was. The aircraft impacts were expected to push all of the consumable furniture, files, etc. away from the point of impact, which is where those unfortunate people were standing.

That particular location was probably relatively cool, and almost certainly the only place where fresh air could be found. Not surprising in the least for someone to be driven in that direction.

Moral of the story to all those Junior Detectives using this to further their own agenda, if you're going to be a jerk and exploit the memory of those who perished, at least think about what it really implies.

[Pardalis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Edna_Cintron_standing_in_WTC1.jpg?redirect=n o


Unfortunately, in that picture we see another person, on the floor on her right. :(

[Bell]

Unfortunately, in that picture we see another person, on the floor on her right. :(

Has that been determined yet? Afaik it is to unclear to tell if that is a victim or debris.

Allthough it doesn't really matter. The whole picture (and others where the people are standing in the windows) is sad as it is. Be it one, two or hundreds of people.

[john white]

Why is it that if the fires were burning so fiercely there are pictures of a woman standing looking out of the hole where the plane hit?

[Dave Rogers]

Why is it that if the fires were burning so fiercely there are pictures of a woman standing looking out of the hole where the plane hit?

Possibly because the plane ploughed all the contents away from the entry hole, so there wasn't much stuff there to burn. The observed deformation of the exterior columns happened on the opposite side, showing that the fires were more severe there.

Possibly because, since the air for the combustion entered through the impact hole, it was cooler in that area, cool enough for a human being to survive.

Possibly because the rest of the floor was filled with smoke, and near the hole was the only place where there was clean air to breathe.

Edna Cintron didn't make it out alive, so we'll never know for sure.

An alternative question to ask would be, if there weren't severe fires, why were people jumping to a certain death from above the impact zones even before the South tower fell, and why were people making cellphone calls reported as saying the heat was unbearable? And, incidentally, why do many photographs of the Twin Towers show severe fires?

Dave

[Bell]

I hate that photograph.

When I look at it, I see a fragile human being in the final, horrifying moments of her life. A person who has done nothing to deserve their fate standing in stark realization of exactly how few choices she has left and knowing with absolute certainty what that fate is going to be. In careful hands that photograph would bring people together in empathy and loss.

When a troother looks at that photograph they see an opportunity to play amateur fire investigator. A chance to pick at the threads on the hem of the investigation so they can convince others that their particular frankenstein monster of a theory is somehow more credible than all the other conspiracy theories and that the official conclusion is somehow wrong. All based on the final moments of a person's life, captured by chance on film. In their hands it is a nothing but a tool: a prybar with jagged edges used to worry any perceived gap.

I don't know who that woman is, but I hope she passed as quickly and painlessly as possible in that hell. No one deserves that treatment in life, and she definitely doesn't deserve this treatment afterwards.

Bolding mine.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=93771

[buka001]

Let us analyse the logic of that situation first, before assumptions are made.

If you are in a building that gets hit by an aircraft or, lets for one moment entertain conspiracy theories, is struck by a series of explosions, are you going to stay where you are, or are you going to try and evacuate?

The photo of her standing there does not tell us directly that the fires in the building were not severe. It just tells us that at that spot where she was, it was not severe. Logical analysis will ask, why is she there and why is she not trying to escape? A logical answer - because she can't.

Based on that it seems plausible that the fires else where severe enough to prevent her from escaping. Judging by the countless videos and photographs showing the large columns of smoke coming from the building, it would be hard to believe that the fires were anything but severe.

[john white]

Cheers for the replys.

I once heard Mark Roberts explain it but I'll be buggered if i can remember what he said. I'm watching part 2 of the Avery Roberts hardfire program i think its on there.

[DGM]

Why is it that if the fires were burning so fiercely there are pictures of a woman standing looking out of the hole where the plane hit?
Whenever I see this question, all I can think of is what would it take to get me out there? The answer. No other choice!

[njslim]

This cropped picture of woman clinging to shattered window in North Tower is often used
(usually with some disgusting comments about fireproof underwear or such) by truthers.
What dont show is fires raging several floors above. She was at the lower edge of the
impact area - floors above took most of the impact forces and jet fuel to spread the fires. As stated the planes path through the building acted as a plow to push all the
debris toward the opposite wall and soak it with jet fuel to ignite massive fires. Also
at that height would be strong winds which would blow fires away from her. Many
people (ie Stanley Prainmuth in South Tower) survived the direct impact of the aircraft
into their floor.

Does anyone have copy of the picture? Both the cropped "truther" version and the
actual shot showing the fires above.

[Bell]

This cropped picture of woman clinging to shattered window in North Tower is often used
(usually with some disgusting comments about fireproof underwear or such) by truthers.
What dont show is fires raging several floors above. She was at the lower edge of the
impact area - floors above took most of the impact forces and jet fuel to spread the fires. As stated the planes path through the building acted as a plow to push all the
debris toward the opposite wall and soak it with jet fuel to ignite massive fires. Also
at that height would be strong winds which would blow fires away from her. Many
people (ie Stanley Prainmuth in South Tower) survived the direct impact of the aircraft
into their floor.

Does anyone have copy of the picture? Both the cropped "truther" version and the
actual shot showing the fires above.

There's a wider picture in the thread linked to in my post above.

[Gravy]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/879046f3a6b3807c7.jpg

[MRC_Hans]

To elaborate on the explanations above:

1)
In any fire, there will be fresh-air corridors. The more fierce the fire, the more airflow in those corridors (because obviously, the fire consumes a lot of air). I have seen packages wrapped in unharmed brown paper right next to (about two feet) molten glass in a fire site. It does not take much intelligence to realize that such corridors start where air can get in, like in holes in the walls. The unfortunate lady followed a fresh air corridor and ended up where we see her, which leads to:

2)
She is standing in a heap of jagged metal plates on the brink of a 800ft drop. What do you think she is doing there? Enjoying the view?? Would any sane person stand in such a place if she had anywhere else to go?

Hans

[buka001]

Just on related topic. Does anyone know if the floors of the offices were carpeted, what ceiling material, office divders etc were used in the building. Any links?

Troofers seem to harp on the point that kerosene burned up to quickly, couldn't burn at this temperature etc.

Sorry, if this has been covered before. I feel a fire analysis (model), taking into account of what materials were in the building would provide some nice material for any debate.

HAS someone done some fire models?

[Bell]

Just on related topic. Does anyone know if the floors of the offices were carpeted, what ceiling material, office divders etc were used in the building. Any links?

Troofers seem to harp on the point that kerosene burned up to quickly, couldn't burn at this temperature etc.

Sorry, if this has been covered before. I feel a fire analysis (model), taking into account of what materials were in the building would provide some nice material for any debate.

HAS someone done some fire models?

NIST (http://wtc.nist.gov/) has, but obviously NIST is part of the gubmint and 'in on it' :rolleyes:

http://wtc.nist.gov/

[buka001]

Cool, I thought NIST would have dealt with that. Thanks.

[Sabrina]

I'd be highly surprised if the office areas weren't carpeted; I could see the hallways and other general use areas being tiled, but generally it creates a richer feel to a place if there is a nice looking carpet in place.

That being said, I can't find anything that states whether or not the floors were carpeted or not; I'm simply going off of logic and my own experience of office areas (of which I've never seen one that was uncarpeted). Sorry buka.

[Alferd_Packer]

As a rule, break rooms, copy areas are tiled. When the buildings were built, it was still common to tile in large areas of open space. when these areas were carpeted later, they generally didn't bother to remove the old tiles.

[Mancman]

Look at those poor fires:
http://i7.tinypic.com/21mzp1e.jpg

Floors 96,97 and 98 look particularly untouched.

[Mangoose]

How so very sad! :(

[Gravy]

I'd be highly surprised if the office areas weren't carpetedThey were.

[CptColumbo]

I'd be highly surprised if the office areas weren't carpeted; I could see the hallways and other general use areas being tiled, but generally it creates a richer feel to a place if there is a nice looking carpet in place.

That being said, I can't find anything that states whether or not the floors were carpeted or not; I'm simply going off of logic and my own experience of office areas (of which I've never seen one that was uncarpeted). Sorry buka.Carpeting also reduces noise, that is inevitable in an office.

Having worked as both a building janitor and an office employee, I can tell you there are many things in an office that could burn and are highly flamable, especially in the janitor's closet. It always surprises me that when I bring up lighter fluid and gasoline being at the WTC, and a "twoofer" will dismiss the possibility of it being present.

[Alareth]

It's one thing to look at pictures from that day and see people in situations such as hers, but when there is a name to go with it, for me it makes the picture 10 times worse.

[alexvegas]

What is going on in this thread? Everyone has taken the opinion that people who believe in some form of complicity of US figures in the events of 9/11 are completely lacking in any kind of emotion or feeling for the fact that people were murdered. Why would people care so much about finding the purportrators if they didn't care about the victims? The lady in that photo is a human being, with a family, and no one can imagine what was going through her mind at that moment or how she managed to get there.

If anything is 'sick' or 'sad' it's the way many of the posters in this thread completely misrepresent the majority of what you refer to so eloquantly as twoofers just to make themselves feel more comfortable. Talk about using the photo for one's own gains.

[Magenta]

What is going on in this thread? Everyone has taken the opinion that people who believe in some form of complicity of US figures in the events of 9/11 are completely lacking in any kind of emotion or feeling for the fact that people were murdered.


They have?

*rereads thread, looks puzzled*

[alexvegas]

They have?

*rereads thread, looks puzzled**removes Magenta's denial specs* have another look.

[firecoins]

*removes Magenta's denial specs* have another look.
Alex

Most of the ct believers are not interested in finding out what really happaned. If they were, they would have come to the conclusion that 19 men were directly responsible for carrying out a plan from Khalid Sheif Mohammad and financed by Osama Bin Laden. Yes the US Govt was inept as usual but they were not behind the attack in any which way.

[Magenta]

*removes Magenta's denial specs* have another look.


I reread. I think you are overstating your case by using the all-encompassing “everyone”. Maybe it would be better to respond to specific members if you have an issue with what they said.

[Dave Rogers]

What is going on in this thread? Everyone has taken the opinion that people who believe in some form of complicity of US figures in the events of 9/11 are completely lacking in any kind of emotion or feeling for the fact that people were murdered.

Speaking as one of "everyone", would you like to point out where I said or implied any such thing?

Dave

[Sabrina]

I'd be highly surprised if the office areas weren't carpeted; I could see the hallways and other general use areas being tiled, but generally it creates a richer feel to a place if there is a nice looking carpet in place.

That being said, I can't find anything that states whether or not the floors were carpeted or not; I'm simply going off of logic and my own experience of office areas (of which I've never seen one that was uncarpeted). Sorry buka.

I second that question of Dave's, and have quoted my only other post in here to make it easier. Please point out where I have taken the opinion you posit, alex.